The Right and Wrong Lessons From ‘Backrooms’ and ‘Obsession’

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Right and Wrong Lessons From ‘Backrooms’ and ‘Obsession’

Podcast: The Town with Matthew Belloni (The Ringer)
Episode Date: June 2, 2026
Guests: Lucas Shaw (Bloomberg), Craig Horback (Producer)

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Overview

In this episode, Matthew Belloni and Lucas Shaw dive into the impressive box office successes of "Backrooms" and "Obsession," two low-budget, YouTuber-driven films that made an outsized impact in theaters. They analyze what Hollywood might learn from these milestone moments—both the good insights and the potential misreadings—especially in the context of youth culture, IP trends, and the future of moviemaking for Gen Z.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Box Office Shakeup: Gen Z Asserting Itself

• [00:29] The weekend saw "Backrooms," made by 20-year-old Kane Parsons and based on a 4chan meme and YouTube series, open to $81 million domestic—over triple A24's previous biggest opener.
  • "The second place movie was 'Obsession,' made for less than 1 million by another YouTuber, Curry Parker... now across 100 million domestic." —Matt Belloni ([00:29])
• [00:55] Meanwhile, established properties like “Mandalorian and Grogu” suffered, with almost a 70% drop in its second weekend.
• This has prompted Hollywood to wonder if this is a generational, paradigm-shifting moment.

2. Is This the "1970s" Again? Hype vs. Reality

• [03:22] Some online are comparing this wave to the transformational moments of '60s-‘70s Hollywood, while others (including Belloni) caution against overhyping.
• [03:59] Belloni: "The YouTube filmmaker thing has been a thing for a while… Talk To Me filmmakers… were like YouTube filmmakers, and they had a movie that [grossed] 100 million worldwide. So it's not a totally new thing."
  • Lucas Shaw notes that while YouTube creators have broken through before, what's new is "having three happen within five months of each other… creates a blueprint for how companies can take advantage of emerging talent on YouTube." ([04:58])

3. Good Lessons Hollywood Should Learn

a. Rethinking Intellectual Property (IP)

• [07:40] Belloni: "Everyone's like, oh my God, these are two original films. These are not original films… 'Backrooms' is IP… we're seeing that these Gen Z titles that overperform… there’s this 'for us, by us' mentality."
• YouTube as both a scouting ground and branding platform for new IP:
  • "In the digital world, filmmakers can brand themselves like never before." ([08:42])

b. Leaning into Youth Culture

• [15:09] Belloni: "Appealing to young people has always been a winning strategy… we’ve gotten away from that because the perception was that the audience is getting older for movie theaters. And what we're seeing now is that Gen Z is producing its own lure for theaters."
• Studios should hire more younger executives and empower new filmmakers.

c. The Power of Empowerment over Assimilation

• [06:47] Lucas Shaw: "Instead of trying to sort of force a YouTuber into the Hollywood system, find a way where it can be mutually beneficial, where you empower the creator… then add the expertise, distribution, and marketing that Hollywood controls."

4. Wrong Lessons and Pitfalls

a. Assuming All IP is Dead

• [11:02] Lucas Shaw: "This belief that sort of IP is dead, which I think would be the wrong lesson… we're going to get to the end of the summer and the most popular movies are still going to be sequels and reboots."
• Established franchises like “Toy Story,” “Minions,” and “Harry Potter” remain strong.

b. Over-generalizing Success

• [11:05] "This notion that actually all things that are original are the future… is not accurate."
• Most breakout cases are still rare—many YouTube creators trying to cross over don't succeed.

c. Copycat Mentality

• [19:57] Belloni warns of "bad copycats" as studios rush to replicate success: "...Warner Brothers and Paramount throwing some money at some YouTube people and saying yeah, go for it. But… there's something about these smaller companies that… do this well."
• [26:09] Craig Horback: "The other wrong lesson from this is to just mine Reddit and creepypasta… and be like, great, that's a movie."

d. Studio System Limitations

• [18:21] Belloni doubts that traditional studios—risk-averse and focused on old IP—will easily absorb or execute these lessons outside of smaller, nimbler outfits like A24.

5. The New Talent Pipeline

• [19:31] Can the YouTuber wave extend beyond horror?
  • Lucas Shaw: "Why haven't we seen...some of these directors cross over into making a different kind of movie for a big studio?"
  • Speculation about whether someone like Kane Parsons could become a blockbuster director in other genres, as Nolan and Peele did.
• [21:57] Kane Parsons "says he's perfectly content to go back to YouTube," raising questions about whether Hollywood can entice these creators to stay.

6. YouTube’s Perspective

• [09:45] Belloni: YouTube executives see these theater successes as a validation, not a loss.
  • Markiplier, for instance, is putting his movie up for sale on YouTube shortly after theatrical release.
• YouTube as a "hub of culture" and crucial distribution tool.

7. Film School vs. Digital DIY

• [26:56] "He was… bedridden as a teenager and developed a personal style… on YouTube. That's the new film school." —Belloni.

8. A24's Breakout and Future

• [28:11] Lucas Shaw: "Are you at all surprised that this is the most successful opening A24 has ever had?"
• [28:24] Belloni credits A24's strong push and their move to behave more like a mid-tier studio, betting big on the right project.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "You asked a question and then answered your own question before I could answer your question."
  —Lucas Shaw joking with Matt Belloni ([04:47])

• "Find someone who has a clear point of view, who has demonstrated an ability to make something… prioritize people who are filmmakers behind the camera rather than chasing the on-camera talent."
  —Lucas Shaw ([24:31])

• "The credit grabbing has been something else. It's why Hollywood is so funny. Everybody is insecure… you want your credit when your movie hits."
  —Matt Belloni ([27:53])

• "Big loser: film school."
  —Craig Horback ([27:05])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:29 — Overview of “Backrooms” and “Obsession” box office results
• 03:22–04:58 — Is this a transformational ’70s moment or overhyped?
• 07:32–10:31 — Lessons about the changing nature of IP and the YouTube pipeline
• 15:09–18:21 — The importance of youth culture and risk-taking
• 19:31–21:57 — The limits of the YouTuber-to-Hollywood pipeline and genre constraints
• 24:17–26:09 — Right and wrong lessons about mining internet content for movies
• 26:46–27:53 — The pitfalls of copying trends and the “credit grab” culture
• 28:11–28:48 — A24’s success and strategic plans

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Tone and Style

• The conversation is playful but incisive, mixing industry insight with humor ("big loser: film school").
• Matt Belloni is skeptical of overgeneralized headlines, whereas Lucas Shaw is more cautiously optimistic but pragmatic about what recent successes really mean.
• Both warn Hollywood not to misread the moment, emphasizing nuance over hype.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced look at the rise of YouTuber-driven movies, discussing both the legitimate opportunities these new voices present—and the temptation for Hollywood to draw simplistic or wrong conclusions. The hosts advocate for recognizing the value of authentic, digital-native creators and evolving ideas of IP while cautioning against wholesale shifts or “copycat” strategies. Both remain attentive to the broader context: Hollywood’s history, market demands, and the persistent relevance of big, established franchises.

Transcript

[Matt Bellany]

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Restrictions apply. See [e-mail], offer Herms it is Monday, June 1st. What a weekend at the box office backrooms. The suspense thriller made for $10 million by 20 year old Kane Parsons. Based on a 4chan meme and a series of YouTube videos, it opened to a crazy sounding 81 million domestic for a 24. That's more than three times the previous biggest opening for that studio. And the second place movie was Obsession, made for less than 1 million by another YouTuber, Curry Parker, that's now across 100 million domestic. Obsession actually grew in its third weekend. Very, very rare to see that. These two outsized hits combined with the performance earlier this year of Iron lung from another YouTuber that's led to a lot of chatter around town and in the media. This is a major cultural milestone in movies. People are saying it's like the 1970s all over again. The passing of the torch to a new generation. A sign that Gen Z has finally asserted itself at the box office. Especially since this weekend saw a crazy drop of nearly 70% for the second weekend of Mandalorian and Grogu. The Star wars movie this weekend marks a pivotal point in moviegoing, jason Blum, the producer, told Bloomberg this weekend. Blum's company was one of several producers on both of those big movies. I love Star wars, he said. But 20 year old kids want something different. So little hyperbole going on there. But clearly something is afoot here. Is this really a monumental moment in the history of the movie business? And what lessons, both good and bad will Hollywood take from the YouTuber phenomenon? That's what we're talking about today with Lucas Shaw, our Monday guy. It's the wild weekend at the box office and the right and wrong lessons that Hollywood will take from the ringer and puck. I'm Matt Bellany and this is the. Today. We are here with Lucas Shaw from Bloomberg. Welcome back Lucas. It was nice to see you yesterday. Yeah.

[Lucas Shaw]

Do you have as bad sunburn as I do after the Dodger win?

[Matt Bellany]

We did sit in the sun and watch the Dodgers for three hours I was smart enough to spray myself with lotion that you did not.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah, I know. One day I'll learn.

[Matt Bellany]

Probably you will learn. In my old age, I have to take care of myself, but.

[Lucas Shaw]

All right.

[Matt Bellany]

Are we in the Upside down here? A third weekend of a low budget horror movie outgrossed the second weekend of a Star wars movie. A movie made for $10 million open to 81 million domestic. What is going on here? Is the enthusiasm real? Well, the enthusiasm is real. Is the enthusiasm justified? I mean, I'm getting. I'm sure your texts are blowing up. Movies are back.

[Lucas Shaw]

We're talking about this sentiment online that this is 1969 and Easy Riders and the beginning of this era of new era of auteur filmmaking. What works in Hollywood is going to just start throwing money at the next generation of Francis Ford Coppola and George Lucas and Martin Scorsese.

[Matt Bellany]

I got. It's 1975 and this is Jaws. And we are now heading into a new blockbuster era of YouTube filmmakers.

[Lucas Shaw]

I am more likely to agree with the 69 than the 75. I don't think this is Jaws, but yeah, so.

[Matt Bellany]

So you're on board. You are drinking the kool Aid of. This is a significant moment in theaters. Because I'm not so sure I, I listen, I'm happy for it. I'm just like the, the YouTube filmmaker thing has been a thing for a while. The low budget horror thing has been a thing for a while. And a lot of these movies don't work. You know, a lot of these YouTube filmmakers that come out of that world like doesn't work. And also a lot of these movies have worked. The talk to me filmmakers. A couple of years ago, Danny and Michael Filippo, they were like YouTube filmmakers and they had a movie that grows 100 million worldwide. So it's not a totally new thing. But I do think that this is a moment that we are going to hang the trend on and the trend is real.

[Lucas Shaw]

That was a really classic Matt moment where you asked a question and then answered your own question before I could answer your question.

[Matt Bellany]

Well, but no, now you have the chance. You tell me I'm wrong.

[Lucas Shaw]

I think it is a significant moment. I hesitate to overreact in the way that some people already have for some of the reasons that you just outlined. But two of these small movies made by YouTube filmmakers coming off of the success we also saw with the markiplier movie Iron Lung earlier this year and happening at a time where also a lot of the sort of more kind of traditional iPad there's, there are doubts about. Right. Whether I think the fact that it's happening at the same time that a Star wars movie is going to do probably the worst of any Star wars movie ever, or it'll be between this and between Mandalorian and Solo. The fact that you've got like this kind of concerns about Marvel. And I just, I think it's significant. And I do feel like even though we have seen YouTube filmmakers succeed before, and I had a response, you know, an editor made a good point in response to the newsletter that I wrote Sunday about, like, well, what about the, you know, Issa Rae became famous for being a web creator. Quint de Brun said a lot. There's sort of been a generation of TV creators who grew up on the Internet. But I feel like on the movie side and in Hollywood more generally, everything has felt like a one off, right. Where like, okay, sure, like someone emerges out of YouTube and it works, but you also have a lot of talent that, that tried to cross over and didn't. And so having three happen within five months of each other and most of it happening kind of outside of the traditional system, but with support from traditional producers, I think creates a blueprint for how these companies can take advantage of emerging talent on YouTube. And for me, more than anything should reframe how they think about who to work with instead of sort of. And how instead of chasing audience and instead of trying to sort of force a YouTuber into the Hollywood system, find a way where it can be mutually beneficial, where you sort of empower the YouTube creator and the emerging filmmaker to tell the story they want to tell and then add the kind of expertise, experience, distribution and marketing that Hollywood still controls to amplify.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, there's going to be lessons out of this. There's going to be takeaways that studios are going to react because it has become such a thing and so discussed within the industry. Studios are going to start to react to this. And I think they're going to react in ways good and bad. So I want to go through some of those potential good and bad reactions here.

[Lucas Shaw]

And not just good and bad, but also sort of the right lesson and the wrong lesson. Right. Instead of making value judgments.

[Matt Bellany]

Right. So I'll start with what I think is the number one right lesson from this, which is the changing nature of intellectual property within the movie business. Because everyone's like, oh my God, these are two original films. These are not original films. Obsession is an original film, but back rooms is not. Back rooms is IP people showed up for this because they knew the web series. They were intrigued by the property, and they wanted to see what it looked like on the big screen. That is, over and over, we're seeing that these Gen Z titles that overperform with young audiences. There is this, for lack of a better word or term, there's this like for us, by us mentality for young people, where if it is authentic and feels like something that is for us, young people will show up. We saw with Minecraft. We saw even though those were older filmmakers and a traditional studio movie saw with Minecraft. We saw with Five Nights at Freddy's. We saw with these youth skewing IP plays that have worked. And same thing with Markiplier. People showed up for Iron Lung because he was a brand. And in the digital world, filmmakers can brand themselves like never before. I mean, you and others have made the analogy to different periods in Hollywood where young filmmaker types have been scouted on different platforms, whether it's Peter Cherning last week was talking about the. The Roger Corman movies that gave rise to a bunch of filmmakers, and then it was the music video directors in the 90s that became filmmakers like David Fincher or Mick G or those kinds of filmmakers. And yes, YouTube is a scouting ground, but it's also a branding platform for intellectual property. And that's what we're seeing here with backrooms, is that this is the new ip. So that's my first lesson.

[Lucas Shaw]

Do you think that if you're Neal Mohan, the CEO of YouTube, do you say this is further validation of our strategy and, and of how important we are in culture? Or do you look at it and say, man, it would be great if these movies could just debut on YouTube.

[Matt Bellany]

No, I think the former. I think they're already doing that. They're out there spinning among the many, many people that were out spinning this past weekend taking credit for this. YouTube was one of them. YouTube is the hub of culture. It all starts here. We are where people look to discover new things and connect with the content that they love. So I don't think losing a movie to theaters is a big deal. By the way, Markiplier is going to put his movie on YouTube very soon. It may even be up already today for sale, and people will be able to buy it on YouTube. And then eventually, I'm sure, like the traditional windowing, it will probably be on YouTube for free. So I don't think YouTube is seeing this as a negative. I think they're seeing it as a positive.

[Lucas Shaw]

I think you're right. That the right lesson is that what IP you need to be looking at is changing. Right. It's the same reason why Hollywood is. Has sort of woken up to romantasy and a lot of these other things that are appealing to kind of women under the age of 35. In the same way that I think gaming and, and finally finding the right gaming IP and the right YouTube IP is, is men under 35. The flip side to that is this belief that sort of IP is dead, which I think would be the wrong lesson. Right.

[Matt Bellany]

That is the wrong lesson. Or that.

[Lucas Shaw]

Or I guess put another way, that, and I hate to say it because I do want to see more and more original movies, but this notion that like actually original, all things that are original are the future and that is everything that the studio should be investing in. And we do need studios to invest in new and interesting ideas. Of course.

[Craig Horback]

So you don't think like legacy IP holders are a little bit scared like the 70s, 80s, 90s IP, your, your Jurassic Parks, your Fast and Furious, Karate Kid, like the Running man, all that stuff just looks like dinosaurs now?

[Lucas Shaw]

No, I totally think that they should be scared. But. But my point is that much as backrooms proved to be IP that people wanted and will probably spin out sequels and a TV show and all that stuff, we're going to get to the end of the summer and the most popular movies are still going to be sequels and reboots and all that.

[Matt Bellany]

Like, yeah, Toy Story should not be worried.

[Lucas Shaw]

Fast and Furious maybe is on its last legs. But you know what's going to probably do really well? Toy Story 5. You know what's going to do really well? Spider Man. You know what might do what's probably going to do fine? Minions like Chris Meledandri from Illumination, who's sitting there with his Mario and his minions, is not feeling like, like IP is a problem or Pixar, which is re kind of remaking a lot of their biggest movies, not feeling like IP is a problem. They just also need the new thing. Like Mario was a was is a relatively new franchise for Illumination. Right?

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah.

[Craig Horback]

Okay, but let me, let me ask you this. We did the IP draft two years ago, 2024. Among the the things that you guys drafted are Star Wars, Avatar, Marvel, dc, Harry Potter. Do you still believe all of those are in the top 10?

[Lucas Shaw]

Probably most of them, not all of them. Yeah, we're about to have a Harry Potter show be one of the biggest shows of the year. So I'm not worried about that.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, I'm not Worried about ip. I'm worried about some of the lesser IP titles that have struggled. Like, honestly, Star Wars. I mean, Star wars is in a weird spot right now where they tried to relaunch it as a theatrical franchise leaning on a streaming show. And the audiences are pretty clearly telling them that they consider this to be a streaming property now. So there's a lot riding on the next year's Star wars movie with Starfighter

[Lucas Shaw]

or that they're just not that interested in Star wars right now. I mean, to your. You brought up the Running Man. I feel like you're seeing, we've seen a shift in kind of what nostalgia is really going to play where, you know, some of those, some of those 80s and 90s or like titles might not work as well as something like Devil Wears Prada. Right. Or Meet the Fockers. You're seeing some of like, some of the nostalgia plays are now the, like late 90s or even really early aughts movies are what people are going to want to see. Now. This can change. Like, obviously we're just a couple years out of Top Gun, which was a peak 80s movie, but that was such a massive movie. It's different from something like the Running Man.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. Like, I don't know if I would put back rooms in that top 10 of IP. Would you? No, but I mean, even though Kane Parsons talking about a TV show, he's talking about sequels. Yeah.

[Lucas Shaw]

It's just the, the, the, the, the potential upside. You're not. And look, I could be wrong, but I don't think you're like having a backrooms theme park ride.

[Matt Bellany]

No, horror. IP is. There's a long history of hits in horror getting sequelized and exploited to death. And they're always reliable, but they're not Harry Potter.

[Lucas Shaw]

I mean, yeah, we were, we were talking about this yesterday. The two of the big Universal producers, right. Jason Blum, whose company was involved in both these movies, and Chris Melodandri, who has going to have these two huge animated movies this year. I'd rather have the two big animated movies. You just make a lot more money from them. There's no, like, there's no shame being Jason Blum, obviously, but there's more money to be made in the billion dollar franchises than the $200 million franchises.

[Matt Bellany]

This. Yeah. All right, so my next lesson that I think is a good one is youth culture. Leaning into youth culture.

[Lucas Shaw]

Well, what is the difference between that and like rethinking which ip?

[Matt Bellany]

Well, it's, they're sort of related, but that one's an IP question and another is just an audience question because I feel like there has been this feeling within Hollywood over the past 10 years that we've lost the young generation. We've lost them to their screens, we've lost them to the fractured media landscape. And Hollywood has consistently reinvented itself through its history by appealing to young people, whether it's the, like you said, the 60s and 70s gritty movies, whether it's the teen comedies of the 80s and 90s or whether it's the Apatow stuff later on. Like, appealing to young people has always been a winning strategy. And I feel like over the past 10 years we've gotten away from that because the perception was that the audience is getting older for movie theaters. And what we're seeing now is that Gen Z is producing its own lure for theaters. And studios should be leaning into that. They should be hiring younger executives. They should be empowering more filmmakers like this, taking more risks. We can get to the risk question, but it's kind of a no brainer to me if you look at the history.

[Lucas Shaw]

But do you, do you think, I mean, obviously I agree with the concept that you should be appealing to young people. Do you credit like, do you think that these movies came about because the producers and studios were younger people?

[Matt Bellany]

Well, ultimately the financiers were, but yes. I mean, I have a piece in my newsletter about the assistant who first found the Reddit page that had the YouTube videos on it. And now I think ultimately the size of the audience for back rooms would have generated interest from Hollywood. But it's not a coincidence that a 27 year old assistant at Shawn Levy's company was the one that found this and said, this is, this is a thing. Right. So, you know, and, and the fact of the matter is Hollywood keeps getting older and older. The people running these studios keep getting older and older and the culture, if you want to keep relevant, needs to stay young. So, right, there's a disconnect or they

[Lucas Shaw]

would say that it worked as intended and the younger person at the office found it. And then that led to they, they basically kicked it upstream to someone else who set a meeting, who then kicked it upstream to the people who run the companies. And like that's how the system is supposed to work.

[Matt Bellany]

Sure. Yes. But I think that the closer you are to the culture, the better you are as a studio executive, regardless of age, I guess.

[Lucas Shaw]

Do you think that the.

[Matt Bellany]

When.

[Lucas Shaw]

If you're talking about these lessons. Right, okay, Lean into new ip, lean into youth culture, bring in more. Have more young people higher up in the ranks. Do you believe that the traditional studios, which are far more risk averse than the A24s and focuses of the world will be able to absorb those lessons and execute off of them?

[Matt Bellany]

Probably not. They will probably throw some money at some hot properties and try. But I do think the culture of these smaller outfits is more conducive to this kind of breakout. They are closer to the actual creative community than maybe some of these other franchise and IP driven studios.

[Lucas Shaw]

And they're making less, generally making less expensive projects, which makes it easier to take the risk because oh, I'm going to spend $10 million on this is very different from I'm going to spend 50 or 75 or 100.

[Matt Bellany]

Yes. And what you're essentially asking is the cult of risk and will the lesson from these movies be the studios need to be taking more risks? And I do think that they will take a little bit more risk. I'm not sure that the result will be what we are thinking. There'll be a lot of bad copycats is my point. And Warner Brothers and Paramount throwing some money at some YouTube people and saying yeah, go for it.

[Lucas Shaw]

Right.

[Matt Bellany]

But I don't know, there's something about these smaller companies that. That do this. Well, yeah.

[Lucas Shaw]

Related to that though isn't is sort of the question of can it happen outside of horror. Right, right. Because to your point at the outset, this has happened with horror before. It's happened many times with horror in fact. So why haven't we seen it? Like, you know, I made the, I made the comparison to music video directors in the 90s. Like eventually, yes, some those people sort of started in music videos, then got relatively small movies that were with you know, the, the kind of comparable to the indies of the day. A lot of it was through new line and stuff like that, but eventually leveled up to making kind of the big, big studio movies and having an interesting point of view. Like when are we going to see some of these directors that seed up with horror movies cross over into making a different kind of movie for a big studio.

[Matt Bellany]

When is Kane Parsons gonna do Star Wars?

[Lucas Shaw]

There was for and has been for a long time, right. Sort of the film school to the film festival to the big studio pipeline. Right. Like Marvel would hire people who like had big movies at Sundance or at Toronto or whatever.

[Matt Bellany]

And the Jurassic World director was a Sundance guy. Yeah.

[Lucas Shaw]

Why are we going to see the same where. Yeah, maybe not a Star wars movie given what we just said about Star wars, but we're like, kane Parsons gets to make maybe not straight to a $200 million movie, but has like, a cool idea for a $50 million movie that pick a studio wants to make.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, of course. But that's almost like a bad lesson because we're seeing it with Curry Barker right now. He's doing Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Like, that's ip.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah, but that stays within the horror lane.

[Matt Bellany]

It does. It does. But it's branded horror. No, I. What you're saying is, like, is this going to be the next Sundance to Blockbuster pipeline?

[Lucas Shaw]

It doesn't even have to be pre branded. Right. To your point about taking risks. Risks are making something new and original and different. Like.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah.

[Lucas Shaw]

Do these. Do these filmmakers have an idea that doesn't have to. Doesn't have to cost $200 million can cost like $50 million.

[Matt Bellany]

It's. Are they Jordan Peele? Yeah, yeah. Or are they Chris Nolan who was discovered in independent film and then given Batman?

[Lucas Shaw]

Right. And then became. To your point about Brandon, like, became a director that people go to the movies for? There will be people who go to see the Odyssey because it is a Christopher Nolan movie.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, exactly. I think there's gonna be a lot of attention on Kane Parsons next movie, whatever it is. He says he's perfectly content to go back to YouTube, though. That's the interesting thing is now Hollywood has to convince these guys to stay within the system. I mean, I think he'll probably enjoy the checks that he's going to start getting from his movie if it grosses $300 million. But. But yeah, he said he's perfectly content to be on YouTube and he does have a TV show idea for this. So maybe we'll get the A24 branded TV show on HBO from Kane Parsons.

[Craig Horback]

He said that he thinks backrooms would be better as a TV show and that. And he. And he views the movie as just an episode.

[Matt Bellany]

Great. So is the Mandalorian.

[Lucas Shaw]

He will. He'd probably want the next studio to let him own his movie.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, we'll see if that happens. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Marketers know that feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions reach and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not so great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that bull spend. Instead, why not invest in what looks good to your CFO? LinkedIn Ads generates the highest roas of all major ad networks. Reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads you can target by company, industry, job title and more. So cut the bull. Spend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com thetown that's LinkedIn.com thetown. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Presenting the Beast in Me. This cat and mouse thriller stars Emmy award winners Claire Danes and Matthew Reese. The Guardian lauds it top tier television and collider raves the Beast and Me will leave you on the edge of your seat with powerhouse performances from both Claire Danes and Matthew Rhys. The Wall Street Journal hails it one of the best TV shows of the year for your Emmy awards consideration in all categories, including outstanding limited series. All right, other lessons that are good and bad. We already talked about the risk issue, just the risk taking.

[Lucas Shaw]

I'm trying to think about sort of the right lessons for how studios should interact with like YouTube as a, as a platform and a feeding ground. Because you were, you were talking about how, you know, there's going to be a feeding frequency for all these people and a lot of cheap, like bad copycats. And we are already seeing a lot of these companies look to YouTube more for, for programming for their streaming services than for theatrical movies. Right. You know, Netflix is doing deals with folks. Fox is doing deals with folks. I do feel like, you know, and I talked about this a little bit earlier, but I think it bears repeating, like making, picking the right people and the right situation. This is not a sign that just like any YouTube creator should make your next movie. Right. Find someone who has a clear point of view, who has demonstrated an ability to make something. And I think more than anything, like prioritize people who are filmmakers behind the camera rather than chasing the on camera talent. Because that is where there has consistently been more success. Yes, some failures, but, but generally more success is the people who are filmmakers and not just, you know, vloggers or YouTube talent.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. And I do think that the feeding frenzy for these filmmakers now is going to extend to the studio system. And we will get the equivalent of something like the Daniels signing with Universal after everything everywhere breaks out. We will get those deals. Paramount, I'm sure, wants to make a splash for their genre division. I'm sure all these studios are looking at these filmmakers now and saying, okay, the floodgates are open. We can now hire these people without the risk of getting fired. So we're going to, we're going to start doing that.

[Craig Horback]

I also think the other wrong lesson from this is, is to just mine Reddit and, like, creepypasta and just go after any other popular thread on Reddit or something and be like, great, that's a movie.

[Matt Bellany]

Although that's, Isn't that already happening? I mean, at least in the development circles.

[Lucas Shaw]

How many studio chiefs do you think, prior to this weekend were familiar with the phrase creepypasta?

[Craig Horback]

0.

[Matt Bellany]

0. I googled it. I'm. You guys, I'm clean. I googled it this weekend.

[Craig Horback]

It's totally fine. But I, I, I guarantee you, it's like when Barbie succeeded and they, like, greenlit three more Mattel movies, I do think they're just gonna go in and be like, great, what are some other horror Reddit threads that are really cool?

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, there's a scary ghost in the background of this surveillance video. Let's option it.

[Craig Horback]

Yes, they're going to forget the fact that the reason why this movie exists is because of Kane Parsons more than it is because of backrooms.

[Matt Bellany]

Yes. He was, like, bedridden as a teenager and developed a personal style and, like, just started honing his craft on YouTube. Like, that's the new film school.

[Craig Horback]

Yeah. Big loser film school. What's the most annoying thing you guys have heard in the last 48 hours about this? What's. What's annoyed you the most?

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, God, just the credit grabs. You know, the, the, the interviews all weekend, the tweets, the texts, quietly. You know, off the record, this person was really responsible.

[Lucas Shaw]

I, yeah, I, There are some people. I appreciate. The first couple of conversations I had with people were like, those who did not try to make it all about themselves and gave credit where it was due, which gave me, I feel like, a pretty good point of view on how it all came together. But, yes, the credit grabbing has been, has been something else.

[Matt Bellany]

I love it. It's, it's great. It's why Hollywood is so funny. Everybody is insecure. You can be the most successful producer, studio head, and you're still insecure and want your credit when your movie hits.

[Lucas Shaw]

Are you at all surprised that this is the most successful opening A24 has ever had?

[Matt Bellany]

A little bit. You would have thought they would have had another breakout in their 10 years like this. And they have, They've, you know, they've opened a 25ish. As, you know, as their benchmark.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah. But they never crossed 30. And this is 80.

[Matt Bellany]

Right. But this was the whole mandate a couple years ago when they got all their private equity money is that they were going to be a mid tier studio now. And if you're a mid tier studio, you need these kind of breakouts. And they saw what they had. They were advertising the hell out of this movie.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

They were advertising on NBA, which is not typically a form for this.

[Lucas Shaw]

Well, I saw a trailer for it months and months in advance.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, they knew what they had.

[Lucas Shaw]

Like, you might have even seen it last year.

[Matt Bellany]

They saw the same numbers that. That everybody saw on the YouTube stuff and the fandom around it. So they're treating this as ip.

[Lucas Shaw]

Right.

[Matt Bellany]

It's smart. More importantly, perhaps most importantly, will you

[Lucas Shaw]

see this movie eventually?

[Matt Bellany]

I saw it, man. You can do it.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah, I. Look, I. I am on the record. I'm not a big horror movie person. I generally.

[Matt Bellany]

It's not gory, though. There's a couple moments, but it's not gory.

[Lucas Shaw]

Well, it's not about the gore, but like, I looked. I. I went through this with weapons, where everyone raved about weapons. I felt like I had to see it to be a part of the culture. Did not have a good time. I. I can acknowledge that they're still making talent. It just was not a world I wanted to spend two hours in. And so.

[Matt Bellany]

But that's like missing kids. Everyone's an adult here.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah. The question for me is going to be whether I go to see it in a theater or whether I wait for it to be on hbo. Max. Yeah, but do it.

[Matt Bellany]

Do it. This is my. Your goal for the next week is to do it. And you can report back. All right, thank you.

[Lucas Shaw]

Thanks, Matt.

[Matt Bellany]

We are back with the call sheet. Craig, don't tell me you are on the Knicks bandwagon here in the NBA Finals.

[Craig Horback]

You have such a hatred for the Knicks right now. I think they're very likable, and I honestly think this is a very likable NBA Finals. The spurs and the Knicks, I think, are great, likable teams.

[Matt Bellany]

I don't know. I don't like it. Things are working out too well for Timothy Chalamet. Like it does. It's annoying too much. He's got to have his team win the NBA Finals as well.

[Craig Horback]

Well, I mean, the Knicks haven't been to the finals in like 30 years and they haven't won a finals in 50 years. So it's not like they're cares.

[Matt Bellany]

I don't know. I like it better when Jim Dolan is the biggest villain in New York and all of these long suffering Knicks celebrities like Spike Lee and Susie Essman talk about how long it's been. And Ben Stiller is bitching on Twitter like it's just, it's just right with the world when that's happening.

[Craig Horback]

Yeah, these are all your nemeses winning. Ben Stiller, Dolan, I guess Chalamet, David Zaslav.

[Matt Bellany]

Don't forget David Zaslav is addicted.

[Craig Horback]

Yeah, sure. It's a huge year for Dolan, Sphere and the Knicks.

[Matt Bellany]

I know, I know. I was at the Sphere this past weekend. Great venue. But come on, the Knicks, like it's just better when they're losers.

[Craig Horback]

No way. Whether you like it or not, the Knicks are likable.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay, so let's talk about the ratings because last year's NBA finals went seven games Thunder Pacers and still was the lowest Rated non Covid NBA final since 2007. Average 10.3 million viewers, small markets, not a surprise there. The Knicks clearly are going to juice those numbers. That plus the Nielsen out of home big data stuff that we've been talking about for a year. They are going to get some decent numbers. The question I have for you is how much up are the ratings going to be for Knicks, Spurs?

[Craig Horback]

I think it has the a chance to be the biggest finals since COVID And I would say it'll be closer to the, the Warriors Celtics Finals in 2022 is the biggest final since COVID I think it has a chance to beat that.

[Matt Bellany]

And what were those numbers?

[Craig Horback]

12, 4.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay. Yeah, I think so too. I mean obviously a lot of this depends on whether it goes seven games. But let's say it goes six games. You know, five or six. Typically the average. So I think if it goes six games, let's set the line at 12 million and I will take the over.

[Craig Horback]

I will take the over two. I think the Knicks are a massive draw. Huge market. It's a story that they're in their first finals and then I think on the other end Wembanyama is like the, the biggest freak we've seen in the history of the NBA. And I think that's also a draw.

[Matt Bellany]

I know seven footer who can drain three pointers. Unbelievable.

[Craig Horback]

Seven five.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, he's seven foot five.

[Craig Horback]

Yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

No he's not. Is that true?

[Craig Horback]

Yes.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh my God.

[Craig Horback]

You should watch. It's remarkable.

[Matt Bellany]

I know. I. Trust me, I do watch every once in a while. I just didn't realize he was that tall.

[Craig Horback]

Yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

That's crazy.

[Craig Horback]

I know.

[Matt Bellany]

That's like Guinness Book of World Records. Those guys who, like, hunch over and die at 30 years old because they can't, you know, deal with themselves.

[Craig Horback]

You know, that in back rooms, to tie it all together, there's a number, there's a Romanian former basketball player, this young kid in his twenties who plays the pirate.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, that's funny. And he's like 7ft tall.

[Craig Horback]

He's even bigger. I think he's like 76.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay, so we're, we're, we're off point here. So the, you're taking, we're both taking the over on 12 million for the NBA Finals. All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, Lucas Shaw, producer Craig Horback, art there, Matt Peck, and I want to thank you. We'll see you a couple more times this week. This episode is brought to you by FX's Love Story. John F. Kennedy, Jr. And Carolyn Bessette. The critically acclaimed series explores the undeniable chemistry, whirlwind courtship and high profile marriage of one of the most iconic couples of the 20th century, with Sarah Pigeon and Paul Anthony Kelly leading a cast including Naomi Watts, Constance Zimmer, Alessandro Nivola and Grace Gummer. Called a stunning portrait of love by Variety, Love Story is Emmy eligible in all limited series categories. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundled subscribers.

[Lucas Shaw]

You can't reason with the sun. Trust us. We've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your [e-mail] to spend more time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome, Columbia. Engineered for whatever.