The Risks and Rewards of Self-Distributing Movies, With Black Bear’s Teddy Schwarzman

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Risks and Rewards of Self-Distributing Movies, With Black Bear’s Teddy Schwarzman

Podcast: The Town with Matthew Belloni
Host: Matt Belloni (The Ringer, Puck)
Guest: Teddy Schwarzman (Founder & CEO, Black Bear)
Date: October 29, 2025
Main Theme:
This episode focuses on Black Bear’s bold move into U.S. theatrical film distribution. Host Matt Belloni interviews founder Teddy Schwarzman about why Black Bear is launching its own distribution unit at a time when the industry is facing historic challenges, breaking down both the business risk and the creative opportunities in self-distribution for independent films.

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Episode Overview

Matt Belloni draws on his industry expertise to probe the business rationale—and potential perils—behind Black Bear’s decision to self-distribute movies in the U.S. Teddy Schwarzman details the company’s evolution from financier and producer to an integrated distributor, addresses the economics behind their slate, explains how distribution logistics work, and candidly discusses the independent film landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Enter U.S. Distribution Now?

• Belloni presses Schwarzman: Why self-distribute in a tough market where many studios are struggling and most indies prefer selling to streamers?
• Schwarzman’s take:
  • Self-deprecatingly jokes: "I think we're just gluttons for punishment." (04:05)
  • Black Bear slowly built distribution expertise (Canada, UK), culminating in a robust international infrastructure.
  • U.S. expansion is not just a fallback, but a natural evolution toward being a “full-fledged independent studio.”
  • Desire to fill "a hole in the marketplace" for director-driven, artistically ambitious films that can also reach broad audiences (06:49).
  • The company now has the scale and infrastructure to handle significant theatrical releases, rivaling major studios in some respects.

Black Bear’s Distribution Track Record

• Success in Canada: Launched Elevation Pictures, becoming the top indie distributor.
• UK experience: More conservative due to lower theatrical returns, but significant successes like Conclave (BAFTA Best Film winner).
• Partnerships and competition: While now a competitor to Neon and A24, still collaborates extensively (e.g., releasing their films in Canada/UK).

Deciding What to Self-Distribute vs. Sell

• Train Dreams Sale Context (08:28):

  • Sold Train Dreams to Netflix for $10M+ at Sundance before the U.S. arm launched.
  • If made today, might self-distribute, but only willing to do so with proper infrastructure in place.
  • Emphasizes never risking a creative partner's work in an inadequate set-up.

• Quote:

  "The last thing that I'm ever going to do is partner with writers who I love and believe in, director who I trust implicitly and our talent, and put them into a situation where we don't have an infrastructure." (10:45)

Building a U.S. Distribution Operation

• How-to breakdown (12:17):

  • Operations: Finance, accounting, legal.
  • Team: Six on theatrical distribution, led by veteran David Spitz (formerly Lionsgate); six on marketing; in-theater marketing and creative advertising; digital marketing; publicity and awards campaign strategy.
  • Goal: Be able to support wide releases (3,000+ theaters) and specialty/art house films nimbly.

• Notable moment:

  "We have the heft to go head to head on big theatrical wide releases against major studios, but also want to make sure that we're nimble enough on specialty films." (13:06)

• Funding:

  • Black Bear is a single-source finance company; all investment comes from Schwarzman, not outside investors. (14:23)

The Modern Indie Film Economics

• Challenge of “bottling magic”:

  • "Bottling magic" is hard to model as a business—success is unpredictable and most indie movies struggle to get noticed.
  • Belloni notes: “Is that a business: bottling magic?”
  • Schwarzman: "It's a really hard business, man. It's a really hard business." (10:38)

• Market evolution:

  • Transition from DVD/physical media era to streaming upended business models.
  • Need to be “aggressive, but intelligent” in identifying opportunity.

Case Study: The Christie Rollout

• Process:
  • Theater booking, marketing (standees, trailers, digital, etc.), regional festivals, awards targeting for Sydney Sweeney’s performance.
• Budgets:
  • Marketing spend for Christie to exceed that of typical specialty distributors—potentially $10M or more—because they see it as a broadly commercial film (18:28).
• Breaking even:
  • Box office in the same vicinity as marketing spend (~$10M) is their rough break-even, but ultimate returns depend on downstream revenues (VOD, streaming, etc.).
  • Theatrical-first model: Streaming deals and windows are structured off box office performance.
  • No announced output deal yet, but streaming/TV rights are part of their financial model.

The Role of Star Power & Output Deals

• Influence of celebrities:

  • Streaming value is increasingly star-driven: having Sydney Sweeney in Christie gets a better price from platforms.
  • Compares to old DVD business, where recognizable faces sold films abroad.

• Quote:

  "Stars don't make movies work... We're working with them not because they are stars, but because they're great at what they do." (24:08)

• Output deals:

  • Currently negotiating, aiming to secure a macro deal like A24/HBO Max.

Ambitions, Risks, and the Future

• Comparisons:

  • Belloni asks if the goal is to be another A24—Schwarzman says he’ll leave that for others, but they intend to be a bold, well-capitalized, high-risk studio intersecting commercial and artistic bets (25:27).
  • Black Bear has financed and will distribute $80-90M films (Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare, Shelter with Jason Statham)—not just small indies.
  • “We have seen a number of independent and specialty divisions come and go. We understand that there’s great risk, and I think we need to continue to take risk and identify opportunity where we see it and avoid being completely stupid.” (27:56)

• Philosophy:

  • The company exists to take intelligent risks, build infrastructure for the long haul, and be a home for creative talent and staff looking for stable, meaningful work.

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Notable Quotes and Highlights

• On entering U.S. distribution:

  "This is not us looking for a safety valve to release movies. It's the fact that we've really built ourselves into a full fledged independent studio."
  — Teddy Schwarzman (06:49)

• On building the distribution team:

  “We have a six person theatrical distribution team... But also our in theater marketing team… We have a six person marketing team..."
  — Teddy Schwarzman (12:17)

• On star-driven streaming deals:

  "What you don't want to do is be building movies with stars that feel like they're from another era... But we also recognize that stars don't make movies work."
  — Teddy Schwarzman (23:17, 24:08)

• On financial independence:

  "All comes from me. We've been a single-source finance company from the get go..."
  — Teddy Schwarzman (14:23)

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Key Timestamps

• 03:31 – Start of interview with Teddy Schwarzman
• 04:07 – "We're just gluttons for punishment."
• 06:49 – On Black Bear's evolution into an independent studio
• 08:28 – Selling films like Train Dreams, rationale
• 12:17 – How to start a U.S. distribution company
• 14:23 – Black Bear’s financial model
• 18:28 – Christie marketing spend and break-even logic
• 20:27 – Importance of box office for streaming licenses
• 23:17 – Output deal and star-driven value
• 24:08 – “Stars don’t make movies work…”
• 25:27 – Belloni compares Black Bear to A24; Schwarzman responds
• 26:28 – Discussion of higher-budget films
• 27:56 – Schwarzman on risk and industry churn

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Memorable Moments

• Belloni teasing Schwarzman about being “nervous” for the boldness of Black Bear’s expansion and vowing to “become an advocate for Jason Statham movies”—“Start with Christie. We’ll take your tickets.” (27:37–27:42)
• The sobering acknowledgment that indie film success is still often about "bottling magic"—fascinating, but uncomfortable business logic.
• Schwarzman’s candor about financial independence and how being self-funded influences their strategy.

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Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, pragmatic, and imbued with wry humor—both in recognizing the “glutton for punishment” aspect of going against industry trends and in Belloni’s winking encouragement for Schwarzman’s risk-taking. There’s an undercurrent of creative optimism and a sense of reverence for quality filmmaking, even as the industry economics are laid bare.

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Conclusion

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the state of independent film, distribution economics, or the future of moviegoing. Schwarzman offers a clear-eyed but hopeful blueprint for how a well-financed, ambitious company might find opportunity amidst Hollywood’s volatility. Belloni’s sharp questions and industry insight ground the conversation, ensuring that listeners get both practical knowledge and a sense of the stakes for Black Bear and the indie film sector at large.

Transcript

[Logan Murdoch]

What's poppin everybody? It's Logan Murdoch here from the ringer. The 20252026 NBA season is here and we got your hoop podcast needs covered on the Ringer NBA show. Be sure to check out group chat with Justin Barrier, Rob Mahoney and Jay Kyle Mann on Sundays and Wednesdays and real ones on Tuesdays and Fridays with myself, Raja Bell and Howard Beck. Get your Ringer related NBA Podcast fix on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And of course come find us on YouTube, Twitter, Instagram and TikTok at the handle Ringermba.

[Matt Bellany]

This episode of the Town is presented by FX's Alien Earth. Set in the year 2120, the planet's greatest threat is discovered after a mysterious space vessel crash lands on Earth. Hailed as a dizzyingly haunting epic by the Wrap, the series stars Sidney Chandler, Timothy Oliphant and Babu Sise. FX's Alien Earth is now streaming on Hulu. RogerEbert.com declares that the series from Noah Hawley shatters already high expectations with standout performances. FX's alien Earth is now streaming on Hulu. It is Wednesday, October 29th at the Toronto Film Festival. Last month I saw a couple good movies that were both produced by Teddy Schwartzman. One of them, a mountain man drama called Train Dreams, was a big hit at Sundance and sold to Netflix for a big price. It's now in the Oscar Ra Another one, tuner with Leo Woodall as a piano tuner turned reluctant thief. It had no distribution at all, and I asked Teddy at the after party, what's up with that? He said he's going to release it himself. Interesting. I thought, who in the world would want to launch an independent film distribution business right now? It's hard enough to make money in movie theaters for the major studios, the ones with big budget tentpoles and IP driven blockbusters. Making and releasing smaller, independently financed titles almost seems like a death wish in an age where that business is kind of downstream or transitioned over to streaming with fewer breakouts in theaters than even a few years ago. But lately, despite the risks, or maybe because of those risks, we've seen a new player or two pop up in that market. And Black Bear is about to give it a go. If you're not familiar, it's the independent production sales company founded by Schwarzman. His dad is Steve Schwarzman, the CEO of Blackstone. Black Bear has been around for almost 15 years. It's a big player in the independent world. They produce dozens of films, everything from the Oscar contenders Mudbound and NYAD and the Imitation Game, Sing Sing. They do tv too, but mostly film. They sometimes finance their own movies. They also sell off distribution rights around the world. The company has a small international distribution arm. They started, they had Conclave and the Brutalist in a couple territories, but now, as of next Friday, it's in. Yes, the US Theatrical distribution business with a boxing film called Christie, starring Sydney Sweeney. A couple others are coming next year. So why do this? Is there actually an opportunity here? Is this just that there are so few buyers out there for these kinds of movies? Black Bear needs to go it on its own. A good question. So I figured I'd have Teddy on the show to explain and discuss. Today, it's the independent film distribution business and making big bets on small movies in theaters. From the Ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellany and this is the town. Okay. We are here with Teddy Schwartzman, founder and CEO of Black Bear and big in the independent film world. Welcome, Teddy.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Thank you, Matt. Great to be here.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay, so I want to know the basic question. Why do this? Why launch US Distribution at a time when people are jumping up and down screaming about how hard it is to get any traction in the US Distribution market? Like, is this an opportunity you see, or is this just. You've been kind of backed into a corner on some of these movies and you need to do this to get these movies seen in this country.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

I think we're just gluttons for punishment.

[Matt Bellany]

No, come on, you're. You've managed to stay in this business for 15 years. So you're doing something like, what do you see here?

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Well, I think from. From our side, we try to make moves carefully and methodically without delving too much into Black Bear's past. We started as a production, production financier, developer, hands on producer. Over time, we built out verticals that would allow us to help monetize not only our own films, but other people's films. So in 2013, we launched Elevation Pictures in Canada. That went from about 10 people in Toronto to about 40 people that we have there now. We've released about 600 titles to become the number one distributor in Canada, including some big ones.

[Matt Bellany]

You had Conclave, you had a couple others.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Yeah, we did. Last year, we had Conclave, actually, not only in Canada, but also in the uk, where we won the BAFTA for best film. Because we grew distribution first in Canada, then we expanded into other English language in the uk. UK is a more difficult market just because of theatrical settlement rates.

[Matt Bellany]

That means you get less money from the theaters. Correct.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Which makes your P and A more risky, your advertising dollars more risky, and means that you need to find films that you really think can outperform. So in the UK, we really, we take fewer swings. We focus on 10 to 12 films that we believe can really pop, but also have artistic and creative merit. And in Canada, we've been releasing about 40 films a year and became the number one independent distributor there for the last seven years. So we've been in the business of distribution, we've been in acquisitions, we've been in marketing, publicity, theatrical distribution and understanding the landscape. We've released movies for Lionsgate, Focus, Neon, A24 and have been doing so for the last 10 plus years. I think from our standpoint, our business has continued to evolve.

[Matt Bellany]

Now you're competing with them essentially.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

You know, to me there's a. There's a community aspect to what we get to do, you know, where, where we actually like each other. At least I do. So while we might compete for dates, we're also still collaborating. Right. We're releasing some Neon and A24 films this year, in the fall or otherwise. But what we're really focusing on is building out our own slate for distribution and I think filling a hole.

[Matt Bellany]

Now we're getting to the answer because I want to know, why do this? If you have these relationships with these existing distributors, why launch your own in this country? Because it's a very different market than plugging holes in different markets around the world. Like the US Distribution market is very competitive, very competitive.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Certainly on an acquisitions basis, on a completed film basis, I think where we have an Expertise is a 15 year track record of production and being able to identify opportunities early. So that ramp up that we've been having on the production side took us from one to two films a year when we started out in 2011 to three to four. And now because of just sort of the robustness of our infrastructure, both domestically and in the uk, we've been making about six to eight films a year. So this is not us looking for a safety valve to release movies. It's the fact that we've really built ourselves into a full fledged independent studio. And with the amount of capacity for critical and commercial films that we've been producing, we think there's a real ability to ramp that up, not only for our own films, but for really talented partners that we've been working with through our international sales apparatus, where we want to be a port of first call for what we think is slightly missing in the marketplace, which is the top end of director driven artistic projects that we think can cross over commercially and really speak to a broad audience as well as the coast, as well as not being afraid to be directly, inherently commercial in our taste. And we have the ability at Black Bear as a studio now to not only release specialty films, but to do 3,000 plus releases, to put up P and A to rival major studios and yet have an infrastructure that we think is much more efficient than the way legacy studios would have built themselves.

[Matt Bellany]

So why not do them all? Why are you selling Train Dreams at Sundance to Netflix for a deal that was reported at more than $10 million? Like, if this is such an opportunity for you guys, I mean, it seems like you're still putting those movies out there for sale to the highest bidder if you can get them.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

We are definitely not.

[Matt Bellany]

No, you're not. You are holding certain things back from the get go.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Let me say this. We are beyond grateful to Netflix for Stephen. No, really.

[Matt Bellany]

No, I get it. I get it. That's a very good movie, by the way. I'm not surprised they spent that money on it.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Look, honestly, that was a movie that frankly, we're blessed to have a collaboration, an ongoing collaboration with Clint Bentley and Greg Kuidar, who we did Sing Sing with, which was a film that nobody wanted to make and thankfully really connected. And I think that we've now taken a bigger bet on Train Dreams with Clint directing, you know, on a film that from an international pre sale standpoint, nobody wanted a film about a logger over the decades.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, but if you believe in this model, we're talking about this model like the. Why are you still selling movies at Sundance?

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Well, because at Sundance, we didn't have U.S. distribution.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay, so you.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

You.

[Matt Bellany]

If you had made Train Dreams today, I mean, that's a. That is. I love the movie. It's a tough sell in theaters. It's contemplative. There's no real star. It's period like. It's the kind of movie that if it doesn't become the front runner for best Picture, it's tough to get an audience in theaters. We're looking at these numbers that are coming out on these independent films in theaters. It's tough to get an audience and break through. But what you're saying is you see some kind of a opportunity here. And I want you to explain why you see that.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Well, I'll also say with. With Train Dreams, I think that on paper, it's a difficult film to get butts and seats for, but I think what we've been in the business of doing on the production side and what we now believe in on the distribution side is really trying to. To bottle magic, honestly.

[Matt Bellany]

Is that a business bottling?

[Teddy Schwartzman]

It's a really hard business, man. It's a really hard business.

[Matt Bellany]

Unless you can get Netflix to pay you $10 million.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Look again, I love Netflix. Definitively not the goal, but that said, I'm a firm believer that everything happens for a reason. And with Clinton Greg, last year, I think Sing Sing was somewhat overlooked by coming out in the summer and only having so much powder behind it. I think we knew while we were in early stages of discussions about US Distribution, we weren't ready. And the last thing that I'm ever going to do is partner with writers who I love and believe in, director who I trust implicitly and our talent, and put them into a situation where we don't have an infrastructure. But we say, trust us, we're coming back to you in nine months. So when we launched distribution, we launched it in August. I think we might have been scooped in July, but we launched in August, you know, and we launched with eight films that are in post production and now an eye towards acquisitions. We are huge supporters of, of the movies that we've made in the past, the distributors that we're currently partnered with, while we're also focused on our own distribution slate and maximizing our movies.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay, so I want you to explain how that works because I don't think people realize how difficult it is to ramp up a US distribution unit. Like use Christie as the example because that's the one that's coming out. What does it mean to book the theaters, put together a P and a plan. Do you know all of the things that distribution requires?

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Sure, I can do. I can do how to build a distribution company 101, which, you know, I'm still learning, so bear with me. But it's a number of facets, right. First, there's obviously the operational side making sure you have proper finance, proper accounting, proper business and legal so that you're set up not just for that film, but for films in the future. We have a six person theatrical distribution team that's in place right now headed by David Spitz, who for, you know, 15 years was overseeing theatrical distribution for Lionsgate. But also our in theater marketing team, right, to make sure that you get your standees up, to get your posters up, to get your trailer play. So we have that team that's in house right now. We have a six person marketing team that's Going to be growing that's focused not just on creative advertising. Right. But then also really focused on digital marketing. I think we want to make sure that as we build our infrastructure, we have the heft to be able to go head to head on big theatrical wide releases against major studios, but also want to make sure that we're nimble enough on our specialty films because we're going to be playing in both lanes. We have a publicity department that, you know, works through strategically, both the direct to consumer campaigns as well as the award strategy, which is, you know, a major consideration on Christie, especially for Sydney Sweeney, who gives what I think is one of the more impressive and singular performances that we've been lucky enough to be involved with.

[Matt Bellany]

Did you get her to the Dodger game last night? That was a nice little stunt with the real life boxer.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Last thing I would want to do is try and get somebody to their Dodgers game in la. Traffic.

[Matt Bellany]

No, but she was there sitting next to the real life boxer. That was a nice little moment for you, but that's the kind of thing that a distribution team does.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Yeah, a hundred percent. I think we believe that this is a movie that can not only appeal to a cinephile crowd, but appeals to audiences across America. The people who are watching the Dodgers game should be watching Christie. 100% true.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay, so, and where like. So this is like a eight figure investment in distribution. Where have you ever taken outside money or is this all come from? You've never taken outside money.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

All comes from me.

[Matt Bellany]

Interesting.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Yeah, we've been a single source finance company from the get go with me luckily having those funds to be able to back our films. And I remember when we started Black Bear In 2011, I was on some panels where people were basically just saying other people's money. To the extent that you're putting equity into films, you're a vanity. And I think that definitively can be true. We've just wanted to grow slowly over time, but profitably and try to control our budgets, control our spend, but really bet on quality. I think we want when the Black Bear logo to come up. You won't necessarily know what genre it is, but it's going to be quality.

[Matt Bellany]

15 years is like dog years for an independent film company. It's like lasting 100 years as a major studio.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Thank you. No, look, it's been, it's been fun to watch the industry evolve from a time where there, there was actually a DVD market to rely upon to, you know, to. I remember sitting in, in some meeting with tech investors Talking about how there was going to be this confluence of content and tech and kind of had no idea what they were talking about until all of a sudden Netflix, you know, really flipped a switch and stopped sending DVDs, and you realized that our business was evolving.

[Matt Bellany]

You say evolving, A lot of people would say swirling the toilet.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Look, it's complicated. You know, I think we live in a world that is ever changing. I'm sure AI is going to only enhance that, as you saw with Amazon layoffs yesterday. But I think what we try to do is study that change, find holes in the marketplace where we see them, and then move aggressively, but intelligently. I guess only time will tell whether that's actually true, if it's intelligent or if it's completely, completely foolish, you know, to try and establish a foothold. And I think you can analyze till the cows come home models, which we do, because you need to be rigorous in how you are evaluating what a film can and cannot do, both creatively and financially. But if you separate that bottling of lightning, that capturing of magic that we talked about is a terrible, terrible business, then none of the numbers really make sense. Because you need to create a product that transcends the sum of its parts.

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[Teddy Schwartzman]

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[Matt Bellany]

This is a real good story about.

[Jesse Lopez]

Bronx and his dad, Ryan. Real United Airlines customers.

[Logan Murdoch]

We were returning home and one of.

[Matt Bellany]

The flights flight attendants asked Bronx if.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

He wanted to see the flight deck.

[Logan Murdoch]

And meet Kathy and Andrew.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

I got to sit in the driver's seat. I grew up in an aviation family and seeing Bronx kind of reminded me of myself when I was that age. That's Andrew, a real United pilot. These small interactions can shape a kid's future. It felt like I was the captain. Allowing my son to see the flight.

[Matt Bellany]

Deck will stick with us forever.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

That's how good leads the way.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay, so take us through the model on a movie like Christie. The NRG tracking has it at 3 million next weekend. That could go up a little depending on, you know, she's everywhere publicity. The Reviews coming in. But let's say that grosses $5 million or less in its opening weekend in theaters.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Sure.

[Matt Bellany]

What's the model on that? Where do you. How do you get to break even? How do you factor in P vod, the awards campaign, all of it?

[Teddy Schwartzman]

This is close to our model, though. I think that from our standpoint, our spend about, call it 10 days out is really starting to kick in.

[Matt Bellany]

So what's a marketing campaign for a movie like that in theaters?

[Teddy Schwartzman]

This is our first release, so we're gonna spend.

[Matt Bellany]

What does that mean, like, 10 million?

[Teddy Schwartzman]

We're going to spend more than a specialty distributor would spend because we believe that this movie is not just an art house movie. We believe that this is a commercial film that crosses over plays, not just the coast, but plays across America. I think your number is a reasonable number to throw up there. But that number to us equals a box of call it around the same, if not a little bit higher, and we get to break.

[Matt Bellany]

Break means break even in theaters. Or does it mean break even if you factor in P VOD and your output?

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Yeah. Correct. Correct. I think it's interesting to see some of the analysis that, whether it's Variety, deadline, or otherwise do, which is generally analyzing box office, dividing it by 50%, looking at your P and A and your budget, and then saying, did you break or did you not off of theatrical box. Nobody models out their returns based on theatrical. Right. If you were doing that off of a business that takes 50% off the top, then it wouldn't make any sense.

[Matt Bellany]

No, I mean, it is a good. It is a good indicator of what the ultimates will be because a lot of those are set by theatrical box office. And the interest level is there. With exceptions, movies take off on streaming that were not hits. I mean, Saltburn was a good example two years ago. Gigantic hit on streaming. Didn't do much business in box office. I agree with your criticism there.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Yeah. And at the same time, you're completely correct that we're a theatrical first model. Right. To the extent that something hits Netflix and becomes a huge hit there, there's no upside for. For any of the profit participants. Right. That's a. That's a pure license window. And that license is generally tied to how does the film perform at the box office. So you want the film to perform at the box office so that the downstream ancillaries are being maximized and you.

[Matt Bellany]

Don'T have a general output deal. You know, a lot of distributors, like A24 movies go to Mac, HBO, Max and, you know, the various vertically integrated companies like Searchlight, their movies go to Hulu. Like, you don't have that.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

We have not announced our output. We are in active discussions. We are set as it relates to Christie.

[Matt Bellany]

So where will that go after it's in theaters?

[Teddy Schwartzman]

We haven't announced it yet.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, okay. But someone bought it.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Yes. So from our standpoint, we know our risk tolerance. And at the same time, this isn't, for us, about mitigating risk. Right. It's about maximizing potential when you have a movie that you think plays to audiences. This is one of our highest testing movies ever. It's in the mid-90s for both men and women over 35, and it actually is in the low 90s for women under 35. So this is a movie that. That plays. And as we premiered at the Toronto Film Festival, you know, I won't talk to you about standing ovations because I know how. How we feel.

[Matt Bellany]

Do not. It's not as big of a problem at Toronto. It's a little problem, but it's not like Venice or Cannes.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

No. But I will just say that this is a movie that moviegoers love. And so what we've been doing is playing the film not only in Toronto, not only in London, but we've been playing the film across the country in regional festivals that not only have been recognizing Sydney's incredible performance, but also that there's a story here.

[Matt Bellany]

The interesting thing about not having a direct output deal and selling these movies to streaming individually as a distributor, it really places a premium, I think, on star power. I mean, this is essentially the modern equivalent of the old DVD business, where if you had a star that people knew and cared about on the COVID of the dvd, you could get a better premium. And that sort of fueled the independent film business. It's why, you know, all these movies would go to AFM with, you know, these older stars like Schwarzenegger and Stallone. It's like they can sell these movies overseas and they can put them on the DVD box. And now you do a female boxing movie. There's one price with regular actress. There's another with someone like Sydney Sweeney who people recognize. And a streamer is going to say, you know what? People are going to click on that.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

I guess first I would say I don't believe. And while I'm. I'm trying not to talk about the discussions that we're having, I don't believe we're going to be a company that's existing and modeling on having no output. Right. We are a company that's releasing up to 12 wide release movies with 20 plus of P and A behind it.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay. So you want, you want a macro Like Hulu, a 24 style HBO Max deal.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Yeah. Just because I can't talk about it at this point doesn't mean it isn't, you know, a definitive part of the model. And it is, but I think the way that we've always built films, in part because part of our model is thinking about a film's performance domestically and it's thinking about a film's performance internationally. And the international markets have generally been very star reliant. Right. And what you don't want to do is be building movies with stars that feel like they're from another era, but still have DVD value in Germany or free TV value in Germany. And at the same time, it's a hard market out there and you want to make sure that you are putting your best foot forward as to maximizing the value of your films when they do work. So we've always been in a star driven business, but we also recognize that stars don't make movies work.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay, I get that. I just wonder if the stars are going to be necessary to generate the kind of streaming traction that you want. But, you know, it's. It's an open question.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Well, look, I think, I think from our standpoint, you know, we have multiple Jason Statham movies. We have multiple. He's a star, He's a star. We're working with Matt, we're working with Matthew McConaughey on a film that we're incredibly excited about. I think from our standpoint, we are working with them not because they are stars, but because they're great at what they do.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, that's very nice of you, but they're also stars.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Yeah, but I would just say, what's the right way of saying it? From our standpoint, we are not trying to make things just because of who goes on the box. We're trying to support films in their genre that can really break out and be defining. So sometimes that's surprising.

[Matt Bellany]

What's the end game here? What do you want, both in the short term and in the long term out of this initiative? Like, do you want to be considered a competitor to a 24 where you're releasing 10 to 12 movies a year and a couple of them hit and it pays for the whole thing? Like that sort of necessarily kind of changes the kind of movies that you're making? I think.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

I think we'll let others make the Comparisons. But I think we're stepping in as a highly capitalized, experienced studio that is willing to play aggressively in both the acquisitions game and be bold and take risk as it relates to the types of films that we back and how we support them. Once you launch U.S. distribution, that really becomes your business.

[Matt Bellany]

Right. So this is you as a company now. You are a US Independent distributor competing with Neon, competing with Sony classics, competing with a 24 on their smaller movies.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Exactly. As you said. I think for us, we don't see so much overlap with some of the companies that you mentioned.

[Matt Bellany]

Well, A24 is making $50 million movies starring Dwayne Johnson now.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Oh, 100%.

[Matt Bellany]

So that's a little bit. Probably. It seems like that'd be a little out of your budget range.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

No, no, there's. There's. Look, I think we've made numerous movies that are 80 million, 90 million.

[Matt Bellany]

You have. Which movies are those?

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare. Guy Ritchie's movie. We have an upcoming movie with Jason Statham called Shelter that Rick Romanois is directing that is going to come out January 30th, is wide release and is a substantial budget.

[Matt Bellany]

And you're paying for that without partners?

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Yeah. These are Black Bear movies.

[Matt Bellany]

That's a huge risk, man.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

You know, this is the evolution of Black Bear.

[Matt Bellany]

But why? Why do that? Do you do that because you have to, or do you do that because you want to?

[Teddy Schwartzman]

We do that because we want to, but not because we have to. At the same time, I think I invest very much so in the people that have worked with me, and I care deeply about our company. I care about our culture, I care about my team's growth, and I want to make sure that Black Bear is a company where people can continue to stay because we're continuing to evolve, in part because we're going into businesses that can add a zero to our bottom line.

[Matt Bellany]

Well, you also have a little bit of a cushion because if it doesn't work, you're not on the street. But, man, now I'm nervous for you. I want to, like, buy a presale ticket now.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Thank you.

[Matt Bellany]

I'm going to start becoming an advocate for Jason Statham movies. Everybody go see them.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Start with Christy. We'll take your tickets and I'll let you know when Shelter is on sale.

[Matt Bellany]

Please do, because I want you to stay in business. I think you are a good thing for the independent film world, and I don't want you to get over your skis.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

We have seen a number of independent and Specialty divisions come and go. We understand that there's great risk, and I think we need to continue to take risk and identify opportunity where we see it and avoid being completely stupid.

[Matt Bellany]

All right, well, I appreciate you coming on. I'm rooting for you guys and I will be there. I'm now a Jason Statham movie fan.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Thanks, Matt. I really appreciate it.

[Matt Bellany]

We are back with the call sheet. Craig, are you a big Halloween weekend moviegoer?

[Teddy Schwartzman]

No.

[Jesse Lopez]

I dress up like my favorite movie characters, though, and I go to parties and bars even though I'm 31 years old.

[Matt Bellany]

It's funny because the movie industry hates when Halloween's on a Friday or Saturday just because people don't go to the movies. I just. I feel like this year with K Pop Demon Hunters being there, there's like a stunty reason to go to theaters. And I think people might.

[Jesse Lopez]

Yeah. Especially with K Pop Demon Hunters, which I feel like people can dress up. That will be a really popular Halloween costume.

[Matt Bellany]

Totally. All right. This weekend is pretty quiet in theaters. Begonia is the big release, tracking to about 6 million. It was in limited release. I never report on the per screen averages of limited releases because I think it's all kind of fake. You can engineer the high per screen average to get the headlines you want. It does not necessarily translate into what the movie's ultimately gonna do. But this one's interesting because Focus is going wide with Begonia this weekend and the tracking is at about 6 million. This is like a 40, $50 million Emma Stone, Jesse Plemons movie. Yorgos Lanthimos. I'm going to take the over, I think without the competition. And obviously K Pop Demon Hunter is a very different audience. I think this movie could get above 6 million.

[Jesse Lopez]

I'm torn. I initially agreed with you. The Halloween thing is kind of throwing me a little bit. But what this movie is going for it is that aside from not having much competition, it is kind of like horror adjacent. It's like this dark comedy about this. The CEO getting captured because people think she's an alien. Maybe. I would agree with you that it will hit the slide over Poor Things.

[Matt Bellany]

Did 117 million in theaters.

[Teddy Schwartzman]

Yeah. Huge success globally.

[Matt Bellany]

That's pretty big for art house movie. That was Searchlight though. They also did well with the favorite kinds of kindness. The last Yorgos movie, though also had emma Stone, only 16 million.

[Jesse Lopez]

And well, all of these Yorgos Emma Stone movies, this is the fourth they've done the last two kinds of kindness and poor things. They platform, they weren't wide do you think that means that this will be on Peacock in, like, a month?

[Matt Bellany]

Probably, yeah. I think that that's the difference here is that it's Focus and not Searchlight, and they want this to go to Peabod, and they want it to go to Peacock soon. So they're going to cash grab in theaters, get as much as they can, and then put it on the service. That's what I think's gonna happen. I do not. I actually don't think they've announced what the plan is. It's also an awards contender as well, so maybe they'll give it a little bit more time to get people to see in theaters, but I think it'll depend on how it does this weekend.

[Jesse Lopez]

It looks interesting. I want to see it.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, yeah, for sure. I'm actually kind of shocked that neither of us has seen it. They've been screening it a lot, but I just haven't been able to make it. I'm going to go. Not Halloween, but I will see it. I don't know. Not a lot else this weekend to talk about, though.

[Jesse Lopez]

Yeah. So the slight over on six. I agree.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay. And you and I can both shave our heads for Halloween.

[Jesse Lopez]

That's great. Perfect.

[Matt Bellany]

All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, Teddy Schwartzman, producer Craig Horbeck, art editor Jesse Lopez, everyone. Thank you. We'll see you one more time this week.