← The Town with Matthew Belloni
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A wise man once said, in this world, nothing can be certain except death, taxes and your boy Johnny Bananas.
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Welcome to the brand new Death, Taxes.
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And Bananas channel where we'll be recapping season 41 of the Challenge every week with all your favorite cast members.
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I'm going to dive deep into the.
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Drama, get every side of every story and tell stories about behind the scenes on set antics. So follow Death, Taxes and Bananas on.
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Spotify where you can watch every episode.
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Or Sponsor subscribe to YouTube.com ath taxes, bananas on YouTube.
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Adolescence has been nominated for 13 Emmy Awards, including Outstanding Limited Series, Outstanding Lead Actor Stephen Graham. What are you doing? Outstanding Supporting Actor Owen Cooper.
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I haven't done anything.
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And Outstanding Supporting Actress Aaron Doherty.
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You need to sit down J. Do not tell me where to sit down.
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Forbes raves adolescence is an all time technical masterpiece. Deadline declares it a world changing phenomenon. For your Emmy consideration, Outstanding Limited Series Adolescence only on Netflix. This episode is brought to you by Lucasfilm. Presenting Andor Season 2 Andor has earned 14 Emmy nominations including writing, directing, an outstanding drama series. Vanity Fair raves that Andor is profoundly resonant. It's the best television of the year. All episodes of Andor are now streaming on Disney. It is Friday, August 22nd. Hello from Edinburgh, Scotland. I'm here for the Edinburgh TV Festival, which is a big international television conference. All the big players in scripted and unscripted TV get together panels, keynotes. I went to a dinner with a view of a castle, lots of scotch and it coincides with the Fringe Comedy Festival, so there's great showcases at night. Both Fleabag and Baby Reindeer started as performances here. Anyway, as part of the festival, I did a fun keynote Q and A today with Stephen Lambert, a major player in the global unscripted TV business. If you don't know Stephen, he's the former documentary producer behind two of the very few British production companies that have been truly international RDF television. In the 2000s they did wife Swap and Secret Millionaire among others. And then since 2008, Studio Lambert, which is now owned by All3Media. He's done Undercover Boss, the Squid game competition show, and he's got a huge breakout with the Traitors, which is the reigning champion at the Emmys and is up for outstanding reality competition show at the Sears Emmys. We talked a lot about that show, both the UK and US version, how to cast a good reality competition, the challenges of the market for unscripted shows these days, what the big streamers are looking for and why that's different. Why so many of the best formats now originate in countries far away from the U.S. it's a pretty interesting and undercovered aspect of the entertainment business. So today, no call sheet. Instead it's Stephen Lambert and the View from the top of the unscripted TV market. From the ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellamy and this is the Town. One thing I want to start with, and I want to get into all the stuff that you're doing at the company and everything, but I want to start with a question that I thought of when I was watching the Traders in the US which, by the way, you're the defending Emmy champion. So congratulations, you won the Emmy last year. You're up forwarded this year. What is. Yes, feel free. That's a big deal in the U.S. you don't understand. These shows keep winning year after year. For a show like the Traders to break into that category, very big deal. What makes a good competition show psychologically? I'm not talking about the game. The game obviously matters, but what about the alchemy of people, game and psychology of everything going on? Because you're very good at that.
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Well, it's all in the casting. I mean, so many shows are made by the casting. Obviously. If it's a scripted show, you want brilliant actors. If it's an unscripted show, you need brilliant people who can be themselves and you need the right mix. The Traitors is a good example. That's a show where we have people who've come from big competition shows. They're great strategists, game players, whereas there are others who are less used to taking part in the competition. Some of the Housewives, but they're just amazing characters. And you sort of start off by finding one or two people that are interested in being in the show. And you think, well, who would compliment them? You can never really kind of commit fully to your cast until you know all the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle.
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And that's with the celebrity version. In the US Is casting a celebrity alchemy different from casting a quote unquote civilian alchemy?
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It's different in as much as you know less about the civilians. Obviously you can talk to them, you can do some test filming with them, but you don't know them in the way in which you'll know people who've been on TV shows. But the great benefit of having civilians, ordinary people, is that, first of all, they care an awful lot about it because for them, the money really matters. And secondly, and the fame. And the fame, possibility of fame. Also, you can have secrets. You know, in the uk, the Traitors is a show that until now has been all about civilians. And so we've often had casts that have kept secret the fact that one is the mother of the other one or that they're a couple and they're keeping that secret. So there are lots of benefits to having civilians, but it's actually great doing both.
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Is there something in particular you can share with us that stands out in the casting process that will be either a red flag for you or something that typically will pique your interest about a person?
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In the end, you're looking for people who are going to be comfortable in their skin when a camera is on them. I mean, the great thing about the Traitors is that although there are cameras all around the place, we don't produce the show in the sense that once they're in that castle, they play the game and we never stop the roundtable. It just happens. So you're looking for people who can be natural while being filmed. And that's when it comes to civilians, that's often the hardest thing to find. A lot of people kind of become very self conscious when there's a camera on them. And so the test is, are they going to be themselves while being filmed?
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B
That's interesting. The American and British versions of the Traders are slightly different other than the celebrity element. What makes them different other than the host? We know Alan Cumming is doing whatever he's doing in the US version. Very different in the uk, but what else?
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Well, American television tends to move a little faster, although I think British television in its taste is catching up with the way in which American television is made. I think that historically, American television uses a lot more music. It's forever wanting to tell you what you should be feeling through the music. But again, the differences are becoming less than they used to be. Actually, we're managing to persuade American network executives that maybe we should have a little less music all the time, because natural sound is actually very intriguing and engaging if it's used in the right way. I mean, obviously, if you're doing a show for broadcast, you've got a lot of ad breaks and you've got to keep building the cliffhangers for those ad breaks. If you're making a show for the BBC, you've got a whole 60 minutes to fill, which without any breaks, which seems for some shows, very long. We're lucky with the Traitors, we're actually often fighting for a bit more time. But the fact that you haven't got those breaks is quite a big difference.
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That makes sense. What about the participants? Are Americans more comfortable being on camera? Are they showier?
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I always thought when I was making documentaries that the first time I was making them in America. This is a great place. Everybody seems to be given a media gene at birth. I mean, it's. I think the fact that Americans are taught to do public speaking in school, in a way that's very rare in Britain, makes a difference. I just think Americans are more outgoing, you know, British reserve people. So when you find people in Britain who can feel comfortable in front of a camera and can talk and be themselves, that's gold. And we. Well, that's what we're looking for all this time.
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There's also a lot more of us. There are a lot more to choose from. I want to get a little into the business here because you're at the center of the unscripted market. And what kinds of shows are selling? What is your assessment of the market for unscripted shows right now?
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Well, it's interesting. I mean, I think that there's an appetite for bigger.
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What does that mean?
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In the past, when the buyer bought a show, they were often spending millions of pounds, which was a big gamble for them. Now, when they buy shows like Squid Game the Challenge, they are spending tens of millions of pounds in doing so. They are going to have a show that has a real presence just from the off.
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But you can tell watching it, you can tell the production values are higher.
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Exactly. And we as a company, my partner Tim Harcourt and I, we made a decision a few years back to concentrate on trying to be in the big unscripted space. Because if you think of it from the buyer's point of view, it's a risk buying a show that costs millions of. It's a huge risk buying a show that costs tens of millions. So it's actually you're only going to do that with people that you know can deliver. And so the sort of. The catch 22 of unscripted at the moment is how do you get into the club where you can make the buyers feel comfortable that you can pull it off? And that's once you're in that club. Surprisingly, it's actually not as crowded as you might think, because there's only a.
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Few that can deliver that. Is it because of the global nature of the streaming services that the shows need to be bigger? Is it because they're going after a wider audience than you might be going after if you were producing a show for a Niche cable network or for BBC or something like that. Is that why they want to go bigger? Or can you potentially have a show that's smaller and reach a bigger audience because of the global nature?
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Sure. And obviously there are still some. You know, there's been some cooking shows on Netflix that have done very well, that haven't been expensive. I think it's just that the streamers have got an appetite for something that has the production values of scripted. And if you're looking to be distinctive in such a crowded marketplace, doing that helps a lot. I also think there's an appetite in Unscripted at the moment for existing ip, whether it's a scripted show like Squid Game that you can turn into an unscripted show, whether it's a game, an existing game. Traitors was an original format by the Dutch guys that created it, but it was based on the game. One of the reasons that show is so successful is that so many people play Werewolf or Mafia and this was a clever way of turning that into a TV show. Yeah.
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Why are Europeans so good at formats? I've never gotten a real answer about that.
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I think it's.
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Everything seems to originate here.
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I think it's all to do with the way in which television grew up. Here in Britain we call it public service broadcasting and it goes back to the origins of the BBC and itv. Executives in Britain were promoted and praised for taking a risk and buying original paper ideas. The biggest difference between Britain and America when I first started operating in America was that in Britain you expected to be sort of hugger, mugger with a buyer. You'd often go and have a coffee or a drink. You often didn't actually know what your idea was. You kind of half knew what it was. You sort of start talking to them about a half baked loaf, then together you sort of work it out. Now, there was absolutely no way once you were in that dialogue that you could then offer it to other buyers. So there was a sort of encouragement for the British buyer to sort of create the show with you. That was completely different in the States. One of the big differences in the States is that everything is run through the agencies. And the agencies, they're pitching multiple. And their whole approach is we've got to create a market for this. So don't come to me with your half baked loaves, come to me with something that's completely worked out or preferably it's already been a hit in Britain. And then we're going to go to the market, we're going to pitch it to everybody. The big difference in the States is considered to be rude. If you don't offer your idea to all potential buyers, they make up, why didn't I get a chance to bid on this? Whereas in Britain, historically, that has not been the case. It's been the complete opposite. Once you start talking to a buyer, you don't talk to anybody else.
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And you think that leads to more original formats.
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I think it means that you're taking a risk in a paper idea, whereas in the very competitive American market, you tend to want to have evidence of success, whether it's because it's already been hit elsewhere or whether it's, well, that's a big thing, but also whether it's been kind of completely worked out and been proposed by people who can definitely make the show. But that's not really answering that. But I think it's more to do with the fact that there are clearly lots of shows in the States that are bought as paper ideas. But so many of the massive hits.
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The ones that have endured, have mostly been British or Dutch.
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Yes, but not overseas. It tends to be British or Dutch.
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Right. Well, it wasn't Survivor from Sweden.
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It was created by a British team and they couldn't get it away here, so they got it away in Sweden. And Millionaire was definitely a British team.
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Oh, yeah, there's litigation over that. I actually participated in that when I was a lawyer. Yes.
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I mean, those are the two shows that transformed broadcast television in 2000, suddenly. Because before that, Alternative Unscripted was called alternative and it was alternative to scripted. And really it just considered that it was sort of award shows. Like, at the end of the corridor, there's the alternative department. And suddenly with Millionaire and Survivor, that completely changed. Suddenly you had these shows that were much bigger than all the scripted shows at the time. I remember it was revolutionary.
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Yeah. It's interesting to think back about that year, that first year of Survivor and when Millionaire was on ABC four nights a week in the US, generating 20 to 30 million viewers a night.
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Extraordinary.
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Very extraordinary. I mean, what was it like to be in the middle of that?
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Well, I mean, we came just after that and pitched Wife Swap, which we had launched here in the uk, to abc. And it was so exciting. Andrea Wong was running Unscripted at the time and she pushed it and got it through her system and we launched. And that was. I mean, that wasn't a big show like Survivor or Millionaire, but it did incredibly well. But it also wasn't a big show in terms of what it was. It Was closed episodes. Each week we had to find a different cast, but it was a very strong format. And subsequently we did things like Undercover Boss, which was another closed format show that was huge. I mean, that was the most popular new show in the 2009-10.
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Aired after the Super Bowl.
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Aired after the super bowl, which gave it quite a help.
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Yes, that helps.
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Inherited 100 million viewers and kept 40 million of them. It was very exciting watching the game because if your show is launching after the super bowl, you want it to be close so that everybody's watching, but you don't want it to go into extra time over time because then the show's going to start at like 11 at night or 11:30 and nobody's going to be up watching it. We were very happy. No, it didn't happen. We were on Air at 10:20.
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Interesting. You mentioned the power of the streaming services. I think people will be interested to just know how you manage those relationships because they have so much leverage, they have so much power, and you really have to show your value at all times. I'm curious what that relationship, how you build that relationship and manage it.
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You're as good as your reputation and your relationships. I mean, the guy who runs unscripted at Netflix, Brandon Reag, I've known him for a long time. You know, he used to be at NBC. He used to be an exec on Y Swap when we were doing it. So if you go back and have history with people, then that makes an enormous difference.
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He knew you could do Squid Game as unscripted show and he was trusting in you.
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Absolutely. But I mean, that didn't mean that it wasn't a great worry for both of us. He said, you know, this is mad because if, if it doesn't work, it will probably destroy both our careers. And if it's a success, well, that's just another success. Let's carry on something else.
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I remember seeing the headline on that. I was like, wait a second, don't people die on that show? And you got, you got around that on your version.
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Well, they don't die, but with a prize pot of four and a half million dollars, it feels like dying when you get eliminated.
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That's funny. Breaking in a new format, how difficult is that now compared to five, 10 years ago? Is the market so saturated that the bar is even higher than ever, or are people kind of tired with what they've seen and something new is easier to get them to gravitate towards?
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Well, both those are right. And I think it depends how you feel that morning when you wake up, think, God, it's impossible. Everything's saturated or no, everybody's desperately looking for something new. The success of the Traitors has given us this belief that, well, actually, you can launch a show and it can go very big, even though it feels like such a saturated market. I mean, the show is fantastic in the States. Here in Britain, it's enormous. I mean, it's a bigger show in Britain relative to what it is. I mean, obviously, Peacock is a different kind of platform to BBC One.
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But isn't the civilian one going to NBC? Yes, that'll be interesting.
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It will be interesting.
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I think it'll do very well there.
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Good. I will always trust you.
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Based on no experience in the TV industry, I do think it will, because it's a big, broad format. That's what works on broadcast.
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Yeah. And it turns out people like watching people lie.
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They do, yeah.
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It's very entertaining. Also, the clever thing about that show is that the viewer is in on it. You know, it's classic Greek theater where you know much more than the participants.
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Yes.
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Dramatic irony. That was the word it was looking for.
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I think it's called situational irony, where the audience knows more than the character.
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Yes. Or dramatic irony. Yeah. Yeah. And it's. It's such a key part of it. I mean, there was a successful show called the Mole, which had a hidden person in the cast, but the viewer wasn't in on it. And I think that the Traitors format is so much stronger because the viewer is in on it. With a show where the viewer isn't in on it, you're so. You're so conscious as a viewer that you're really susceptible to the editing. And you can be steered in so many different directions because of the editing. Whereas with the Traitors, right from the beginning, you know exactly who the traitors are. The whole question is, are they going to succeed in their desire to be there still at the end? But the fact, you know, makes the viewer feel kind of omnipotent. They say, why on earth can't they spot this person? Traitor.
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Yeah. I was going to ask you why the Traitors succeeded, and I think you just answered that question. Is that why you believe that? That's.
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I think. I think that's the core to it. And then I think the whole Gothic dressing is fantastic.
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I mean, very theatrical.
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Very theatrical plays to so many sort of tropes that we know in fiction. And it's. It's just a great romp with a fantastic motor of the round table. I mean, the round table is. It sort of puts you off the jury system really, doesn't it? I mean, it makes you realize that people are so certain in their opinions based on so little evidence at times. And yet it's fascinating to watch as people get persuaded that so and so is a traitor. And often they're not.
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This episode is brought to you by FX's alien Earth. From creator Noah Hawley and executive producer Ridley Scott comes the first television series inspired by the legendary Alien film franchise. A spaceship crash lands on Earth, bringing five unique and deadly species more terrifying than anyone could have ever imagined. And a technological advancement marks a new dawn in the race for immortality. FX's alien Earth all new Tuesdays on FX and Hulu.
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This episode is brought to you by.
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Scene on the Screen, a podcast presented by Make It Universal and Rotten Tomatoes. Join me, Jacqueline Coley, as I meet.
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The filmmakers, actors and industry insiders influencing entertainment. Each episode is an intimate, fun conversation about the impact of film as guests.
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Share their journeys, inspirations and answer trivia about the movie that shape them.
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Seen on the Screen is available now. To listen, simply search seen on the.
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B
Screen wherever you listen to podcasts. What is the art of a great pitch?
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A
I think making documentaries, I above all learned how to persuade people to do something. I mean.
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B
Oh, you learned that in documentaries?
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Yeah, because in documentary you have to persuade people to let you come into their life and let you hang around and follow.
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B
Oh, you're talking about the participants, not the buyer.
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I'm talking about the participants. I'm talking about the act of.
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B
That's a journalism trick.
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It is a journalism train. With documentaries it's often harder than it's different degree to journalism. Often with journalism you're just trying to get an interview. With documentary you're having to be there for weeks longer and you've got to be able to persuade people to let you do that. And nobody, I mean this is like all self help book. Nobody ever did anything generally on the whole, people don't do things for helping you. They do it because of their own interests.
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B
What's in it for me?
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So what you learn as a documentary maker is how to get into the heads of the people that you're trying to persuade to let you in and work out why it's in their interest to let you do that. That's a great skill and it's a great skill for them being a picture of ideas.
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B
So you're putting yourself in the buyer's.
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Room, you're trying to put yourself in The. It's what I was talking about earlier about if buyers are looking for big shows. Think about it from their point of view. How are they. They're not going to buy many big shows, and if they get it wrong, they're going to lose their jobs.
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B
Every executive just doesn't want to get fired. That's the core of their being. Right. How do I not get fired? So when you're trying to put yourself in their head, how do you convince them to take a leap on something that could get them fired?
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Well, because if you don't buy a show ever, you're probably going to get fired. Although it's amazing how many survive doing that for a while.
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B
Right.
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You've got to understand how they're thinking and what the kind of thing is that most shows, it's rare that you've actually get to pitch to the ultimate buyer. Most of the time you're going through somebody else. And so they've got to be able.
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B
To communicate, even you at your level.
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A
Yeah. I mean, you.
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B
Brandon won't hear your pitch.
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A
No, Brandon will hear our pitch. But anyway, with most organizations, there's some meeting that happens where the marketing people come and the PR people come. So everybody's got to understand what this idea is and you don't go to that meeting. And so it has to be something that you think will appeal to all of those people. You've got to have something that realizes that you need, whether it's. You've already made it somewhere else, whether you can create a piece of history.
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B
Much easier if you have the hit to show them.
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A
The cards are stacked in the favor of British American companies compared to pure American companies. Certainly in unscripted, because we have access to our own IP that we've created here in a market where original IP creation is a priority.
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B
Yeah. Is there a show where you were particularly proud of the pitch where you nailed it and explained it completely? Right. And got a yes in the room?
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A
It's rare that you get a yes in the room. We did get a yes in the room when we pitched Undercover Boss.
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B
I would have thought that would be more difficult.
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A
Well, we made a great tape.
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B
Okay.
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A
And we went straight to the top. The executive at the time was on location on Survivor. So the pitch was to Nina Tesler, who ran cbs, who ran CBS at that time. And she cried when we watched when we played the tape.
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B
Oh, wow.
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A
And it was the height of the 2010 kind of financial crisis. Not a great time to be launching a company.
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B
No. But this is a Good show to do it with.
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A
We had sold the show to Channel 4 in Britain. We couldn't find anybody to take part in it. We were only commissioned to make three episodes, and we were about to film one of those episodes and the company went bust. So that disappeared. Anyway, we had two episodes. We cut a sizzle tape from that. We went to see Lena. She liked it so much. He said, we want to do this show. And when I'm not talking about development, we're going straight to pilot. And next day we were doing a deal, and it was great.
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B
And she didn't say, how do you get the bosses to participate? That was always the craziest thing about that show. Like, what are these people doing?
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A
I know. I mean, persuading anybody to take part in a television program is difficult. Persuading the bosses. The CEOs are very big companies. These companies need to be so big that nobody knows what the boss looks like. That means they're big. It also means that they're very busy people.
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B
And it means that their downside is pretty significant. They're often publicly traded. I mean, CEOs have even less fortitude than buyers do. They don't want to get fired.
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A
No, quite. Well, it was very hard finding the first one. Thankfully, Larry o' Donnell from Waste Management, somehow his wife was called Dare, and she made him dare to do it.
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B
Oh, wow. And I imagine that most of the bosses had positive experiences, of course, and.
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A
That was the sell. You know, this is a show where you're going to look great. And the whole purpose of the show is you go and right wrongs. You go and find out things that need sorting out. And you also go and find the heroes in your company and you thank them and reward them. So there's no way you're not coming out good unless you're something very weird.
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B
Right. All right, so back to the business a little bit. We've seen a pretty incredible wave of consolidation in the unscripted business over the past 10, 15 years. I mean, I remember that period 10 years ago where it seemed every day one of the independents was getting bought up by Fremantle or any of these companies. What is that like today? Is everything consolidated? Is there space for true independence to break through? What does that market look like today?
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A
Well, a lot of unscripted television is made by companies in groups, definitely, but new companies are created.
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B
But can they break through?
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A
Yes. I mean, if they're set up. But it's obviously easier if you've been in one of those companies that are in the Groups and. And you've already got the experience and you've already got all the relationships. If you leave and start a new company, it's definitely possible to break through. If you are somebody who hasn't had much experience but are clever and got lots of great ideas, then it's hard sometimes it's clearly possible, but it's difficult. There's an argument that. That says don't do it at that stage. Work with great people in a more established company so that you become more senior by the time you set up your own company. I mean, I don't quite know what it's like because I'm not in that position. But from where I can see, I can see the companies are being created and some become successful. But yeah, sure, it's hard because even with the stream is less. There was a boom a while ago and everybody's retracted a bit. There's fewer shows are being bought.
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B
That's still the case right now.
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A
That's still. That's still the case. I mean it's picked up a bit. And when the shows are bought, they want to buy big quite often. So even harder for.
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B
I've heard it's like a barbell effect. They want the big shows or they want the margins to be razor thin and just do it as cheap as you can.
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Yeah, well, like throwing a bed up to 1,528 episodes and I've watched all of them.
- [29:55]
B
Amazing. Yeah. It's interesting because I don't know how closely you follow this in the US but this merger of Warner Brothers with Discovery. Discovery brought a lot of their unscripted. And Warner Brothers and HBO had the premium and they put them all together in a streaming service, max. And it turned out that people were not watching the unscripted stuff on that service. And it's interesting, it gets to that point of whether you need to be bigger for the streaming services or different in some way. And that kind of DIY programming that you see on HGTV and Food Network and that kind of stuff, maybe it works less in an on demand streaming environment than some of these bigger, more appointment, more kind of robust feeling shows.
- [30:44]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think.
- [30:46]
B
Do you feel that when you pitch.
- [30:47]
A
Well, I think television is becoming more appointment view in the sense that you're deciding to watch something. I think, you know, in the past people would just switch on, oh, I like that channel. And it would just be on.
- [30:59]
B
Right. Lean back, we call it.
- [31:01]
A
And you'd often be doing other things and come back and oh, it's still on. Oh, that's interesting. But they're not that kind of viewing. I'm sure it still happens to some extent, but it's. Yeah.
- [31:12]
B
And Netflix in particular, they're very good at getting you and you know to keep watching.
- [31:16]
A
That's true, I'm thinking. But with Netflix on the whole more you're. You're choosing to go. I mean, often you then start looking and Netflix is very good at playing your little clips all the time. So you think, oh, that's quite interesting.
- [31:28]
B
The algorithm finds the content and brings it to you, but you have to affirmatively watch it.
- [31:32]
A
Yes.
- [31:32]
B
It's not like the TV goes on and it's on for eight hours and all of a sudden you've watched 25 episodes of a show. Yeah, but that changes the market for shows. It changes the kinds of shows that are bought.
- [31:44]
A
It does. And I think the theme of what we've been talking about is fewer and bigger and if there's attached ip, that helps as well.
- [31:55]
B
Interesting. What's a show that you are jealous of? You wish you had thought of, you wish you had produced.
- [32:01]
A
Gosh, well, all the hits that aren't made by us.
- [32:05]
B
But is there one where you're like, that's a great idea or that's.
- [32:09]
A
Well, I mean, I was a great fan of Top Gear and that was a huge show and I thought that would be a great show to be doing.
- [32:17]
B
Yeah. I was trying to think of Love is Blind would be a good show to do.
- [32:20]
A
Love is Blind. Very good show.
- [32:22]
B
Yeah.
- [32:23]
A
And I know Chris Colin very well.
- [32:25]
B
Oh, yeah, I just had lunch with him.
- [32:26]
A
Ah, well, very nice guy. He ran RDF usa. He was our agent and I persuaded him.
- [32:32]
B
He was an agent. Then he went over and I said.
- [32:33]
A
You should stop being an agent, you should become a producer. And it seems to have worked out.
- [32:37]
B
That's good. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about digital and some of the stuff that's going on on YouTube in particular. YouTube has grown so much. It's now the largest platform on televisions in the U.S. forget mobile and all the other places people watch YouTube. How long until the economics catch up with Unscripted, where you as a top producer could make a show for YouTube and expect to make a return via the ad Market on YouTube. Are we even close to that?
- [33:13]
A
Well, MrBeast does pretty well.
- [33:15]
B
He does. But why aren't you creating the next MrBeast?
- [33:21]
A
Well, because if your energies have all been going into creating these big expensive shows for tens of millions, that's it's quite a separate and different kind of operation to try and create something that.
- [33:36]
B
For now it is for sure. I just, I see that getting closer. Netflix wants to work with YouTubers. YouTube wants premium content. It's all getting closer together.
- [33:45]
A
Yes. Well, we are starting to talk to and think about those kinds of ways of moving forward and thinking about how we would do that, but.
- [33:56]
B
Meaning taking established YouTube talent and turning them into TV stars.
- [34:01]
A
No, I think what you're talking about is native. You've got to grow something on YouTube. The people who are successful at being on YouTube tend to be quite confident and don't want an established company to come. And so you look at something like Mr. Beast. He didn't grow up by going to get support from an existing production company.
- [34:24]
B
But when he wanted to do a real show with a real prize and up the stakes, he went to Amazon.
- [34:31]
A
Sure.
- [34:31]
B
Which gave him the money to do that.
- [34:33]
A
Yeah. The fact that he had 10 billion viewers on YouTube probably helped persuade Amazon that this was a good thing to do.
- [34:41]
B
But where do you fall into that equation? That's my question. Where can you as a professional producer of unscripted content fall into the digital equation between the creator and the big buyer that is going to pay you everything you want up front? Is there a middle ground or are we going to see that?
- [34:59]
A
I don't know. We're thinking about it. Don't have the solution. I mean, I think creating some kind of support for those creators or would be creators is the kind of thing. But whether the people that would take your support are the ones who are going to be successful is the big question.
- [35:16]
B
It seems to me that the someday there will be a format that launches on YouTube that becomes as big or as successful as some of the formats that you work with.
- [35:29]
A
Yes. I mean, you're right. In as much as a good format isn't necessarily something that's expensive, if it's a clever device, it can be made cheaply. And even the kind of shows that we've been talking about, I mean, traitors in Lithuania or wherever, I'm sure is a lot less expensive than how we make it for the States. So, I mean, yes, it hasn't happened much. I mean, MrBeast is the only example I can think of of somewhere where somebody has become big on YouTube and then gone to a. Yeah, in the.
- [36:10]
B
US I think she's big everywhere. Ms. Rachel is another one. She's a kids program. But it's. That's basically talking to the camera. Yeah, yeah. You think there'd be more. Yes, we'll see. When you give advice to young people getting into the unscripted TV business, what do you say to them these days? And has that changed over the past 10 years?
- [36:31]
A
No, it hasn't changed much. I mean, I think the advice always for me is watch stuff. Amazing how many people still come and talk to you and say, I want to work in television. And you ask them, well, what have you watched?
- [36:43]
B
What are you liking?
- [36:44]
A
I don't actually watch television. That's not a great way of getting into the industry. But don't just watch, have opinions about what you watch. Develop your critical faculties. Critical faculties in the sense of, I watch this show, I can see why it's not working, or I can see why it is working. These are the changes I would make to make it better. All that kind of thinking, if you can demonstrate that in interviews and getting to know people, that's something that people will respond to, having ideas. But actually, in a way, it's more interesting having ideas about how to make things that really exist better than coming up with kind of a complete blank piece of paper idea. Although if it's good, that's great. And, yeah, I mean, I find mentors, it's hard, but most people I know have somehow managed to find those people. And obviously there are schemes for that, which sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. But the best thing is actually finding them fortuitously, which isn't a great advice.
- [37:48]
B
Because where's the best place to get this kind of education for someone young? Should everybody be moving to the UK and working in development to learn those skills? What's the best starter ramp?
- [38:01]
A
I think working in a. In a thriving company is the best place. And I think that from what we were talking about earlier, Britain is a good place because the marketplace has grown up in such a way that there's a premium on accepting and buying original ideas. So, yeah, I mean, if you can.
- [38:22]
B
Get a visa, I'm doing it, I'm doing it. Next. We didn't talk that much about Squid Game, and I think I want to just talk a little bit about some of the trepidations you had going into that show. You talked about how you and Brandon said, this is going to ruin you if it doesn't work. But from a logistical standpoint, what did that show have to have and how did you come up with the format and how to translate that IP into something that was real and tangible and worked well?
- [38:51]
A
Above all, we had to have brilliant people making the show, and that was the best team that we have.
- [38:58]
B
Is that the most expensive show you've ever done?
- [39:00]
A
Yeah, definitely. And my partner, Tim Harcourt, who is our chief creative, he was completely across that show and had amazing insights as to how to make it work. It's a show that. Where we've got the example, but it's a scripted version. And so we had to make it.
- [39:20]
B
For real, had to look like that, but it had to be a real game.
- [39:24]
A
That had to be a real game. I mean, director Huang came to see the show when we were just about to start shooting our version. He said, I can't believe you've built it all for real.
- [39:33]
B
Oh, my God.
- [39:35]
A
So much of what he was doing was green screen and we had to have it for real. They had to, you know, the plumbing had to work. They were living in sound stages, but they were also sleeping there and they had it all had to work. So the scale of it was massive. So it was about having brilliant people running all the different departments and the personnel in those departments being incredibly organized, and then in terms of the ideas, trying to work out how to make those games work for real and to come up with original ideas. I think also we didn't have a script. That was the biggest problem in the scripted show. The script creates characters that give you moral dilemmas and all kinds of. That's what you're really watching. I mean, a lot of the games in Squid game are kind of, to some extent, luck games. I mean, there's some skill, but there's quite plot devices. We didn't have that. So we had to. Any new games that we created or any little sub games, they had to be ones that would reveal moral, character or personality. And so devising those was very important for us. Our mantra was how you play the game reveals who you are. And so that was the challenge.
- [40:52]
B
Well, I think it worked. You've been doing this a long time. How do you stay hungry in the business? Are you close to development? Do you relish physical production? What keeps you hungry?
- [41:09]
A
I love it when somebody says, yes.
- [41:11]
B
You'Re a deal junkie.
- [41:12]
A
I like getting everything to the point where. And that's about saying, you know, part of our development. I mean, we have brilliant people running development. Tim, as I've mentioned, leads that, and he's fantastic. But when we go and pitch big shows, we go and do that together. And getting something across the line is so hard and yet so exciting when it happens. Because I suppose the magic of television is that you can have an idea and then a little while later, it's in millions of people's heads, and that's still so intoxicating. And it happens in a way so fast. I mean, I know we all complain how slow it all is and how difficult it is, but it's the case. You know, you can have an idea in most. Again, I don't know, because I've only ever worked in television, but in most sectors, you have an idea for, I don't know, some little gimbo that's going to do something on a car or something. It takes you years to get it to actually become something that actually makes your car go faster than you actually notice. In television, you have an idea, whether you're a writer doing a scripted show or an unscripted creator. And in not that long a time, if it's successful, millions and millions of people will know about it. They will be thinking about it. They want to watch more of it. They'll love it, if you're lucky.
- [42:38]
B
Good point. Last question. How is the easiest way to get cast on the traitors asking for a friend?
- [42:48]
A
Do you mean in the States?
- [42:50]
B
In the civilian version? Not.
- [42:53]
A
Well. I mean, so many people apply that I'm sure some brilliant people might get lost in the system. But we have a fantastic casting team who are very, very good at looking at everybody's applications and tapes. And there's no shortcut. I mean, obviously. Well, there is a shortcut. I suppose if somebody says, look, this person's brilliant, you ought to take them seriously, then I can. Or whoever they're talking to among us can push it.
- [43:21]
B
No, but I mean quality. Quality. Yeah. Crazy, but not too crazy.
- [43:27]
A
Crazy. Not too crazy.
- [43:30]
B
Outrageous, but controllable.
- [43:32]
A
Yeah. You want people who are going to play the game, be great television and surprise you.
- [43:40]
B
Interesting. All right, so this is the 50th year of the festival, and we will end, as many of these sessions have, by asking you your favorite British show of the past 50 years.
- [43:52]
A
Well, I'm torn, but I was gonna say the Office, but actually.
- [43:56]
B
Oh, I said the Office on another panel earlier. So you can't say the Office.
- [44:00]
A
Okay, well, I'm gonna say the Royal Family. Do you know what that is?
- [44:02]
B
I don't.
- [44:03]
A
It was a comedy that was set in a domestic sitting room, and the characters were all watching television, but they didn't see much of the television, and it was just their dialogue. It was very scripted. Scripted, very funny. And it was one of the inspirations for Gogglebox, and it was a brilliant show.
- [44:24]
B
All right, everybody, Stephen Lamberg, thank you very much. All right. That's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, Stephen Lambert, producer Craig Horbeck, art editor Jesse Lopez. And I want to thank you. We will see you next week back at home in la.