What Makes Good TV Writers (and Execs), With David E. Kelley

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary: The Town with Matthew Belloni Episode Title: What Makes Good TV Writers (and Execs), With David E. Kelley
Date: May 13, 2026
Guest: David E. Kelley
Host: Matthew Belloni
Network: The Ringer / Puck

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Episode Overview

This special episode, recorded live at Puck’s “Stories of the Season” TV event in Hollywood, features an in-depth conversation between Matthew Belloni and David E. Kelley—one of television’s most acclaimed and prolific creators. Over his five-decade career, Kelley has left an indelible mark with shows like LA Law, Ally McBeal, The Practice, Big Little Lies, Goliath, and most recently Margo’s Got Money Troubles (on Apple TV+). The conversation explores Kelley’s unique writing process, his perspectives on the evolution of TV industry and executives, creative integrity, and his thoughts on working with his wife, Michelle Pfeiffer.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Kelley's Career, Process, and Mindset

• Low Media Profile & Focus on Writing
  • Kelley discusses his reluctance to do media and his preference for staying behind the scenes. “I'm most comfortable when I'm at my desk writing and hiding behind the characters.” (02:46)
• On-Set Involvement
  • Prefers not being on set, following Steven Bochco’s model of delegation, focusing on writing and collaborating with experts in their own crafts. “Your best chance of success is to surround yourself with people who are experts in their particular craft… Don’t try to tell them how to do their jobs. And if you’re lucky, they won’t tell you how to do yours.” (03:29 – 05:01)
• Preference for Pen and Paper
  • Still writes first drafts in longhand: “Yeah, my hand is wearing on a little bit, but I do.” (07:22)
  • Has partially adapted to digital tools but remains rooted in traditional process.

Navigating Industry and Platforms

• Volume of Work
  • At one point wrote more than 50 episodes in a year: “One year could have been more than 50. Yeah.” (08:26)
• Working Without an Overall Deal
  • Kelley favors being a “free-agent” to match each project with the right studio or streamer: “Your best odds really are a melding of the passion of the creatives and the studio or the platform that’s going to distribute your product… then you can sort of take the temperature of the buyers.” (11:16 – 12:08)
• Experiences with Streamers
  • Noted each streamer/platform has a distinct culture. Had challenging early days with Amazon (Goliath) but acknowledges things have changed over time.
  • Slight preference for legacy companies due to a sense of camaraderie and mutual creative goals: “I probably feel more of a connection because I’m old with some of the legacy folks.” (13:42 – 14:20)
  • Observations on changes in executive culture: “It feels like companies now start to look, what can we sell? And maybe by chance we’ll get to make a good product as well.” (14:41)

On Good TV Executives and Creative Collaboration

• Ideal Executive Behavior
  • “Find the best writers, creators that you can, try to land on a project that they’re passionate about, and let them go. Get out of the way.” (15:18 – 15:55)
  • Notes there is “way more meddling than there used to be,” particularly with streamers. Studios now demand to see cuts in advance, compared to trusting creators to deliver final products in earlier days (16:41).

Writing Philosophy and Audience Respect

• Lessons from Steven Bochco
  • “Respect the audience. Know they’re smart. Do not dumb down the plot so they can follow along. Count on them to be ahead of you and write up to them, not down.” (17:58)

Insights on Margo’s Got Money Troubles and Working with Michelle Pfeiffer

• Project Genesis
  • Kelley and Pfeiffer were both drawn to the Rufi Thorpe novel for its “very original and affirmative” voice, and the strong characterization: “I always gravitate to strong character pieces and plots that allow you to mine the emotional centers of those characters. And this book did all of that.” (18:51)
  • The couple chose not to work together for many years due to working in different mediums and having strong independent creative visions.
• Depiction of OnlyFans
  • Trust in the source material avoided pitfalls of sensationalism: “If you had come to me independently and asked me to do a show about OnlyFans, I would have been daunted… I felt I had Rufi holding my hand in terms of the research and the subject matter.” (22:44 – 22:55)
  • Eva Anderson handled much of the OnlyFans content due to Kelley’s self-professed prudishness.

Cancellations, Reboots, and Looking Forward

• Views on Short-Lived Shows
  • Regarding cancellation regret: “Sometimes you swing and a miss and it’s not good. And I’ve done shows that aren’t good. So when they get canceled, I say, okay, I get it.” (24:08)
  • Points out how viewership thresholds have changed: “Harry’s Law got canceled with 9 million viewers on one night.” Compared to 2 million being a “huge hit” now. (24:46 – 25:00)
• On Reboots
  • Not a fan of reboots, prefers not looking backward: “There’s not one of my shows that I’ve ever watched after it’s aired… I kind of look forward and don’t look backward.” (25:21)

Adaptation to New Tools & Writing Discipline

• AI in Writing
  • Hasn’t experimented with AI for drafting scripts, only for research: “I’m wary, like everyone is, about AI and skeptical of it, but I don’t think it’s going to replace the good writing.” (26:31 – 27:07)
  • More worried about “misuse” and tech leaders’ ethics in AI, rather than the tool itself. (27:39 – 28:14)
• Hiring Lawyers as Writers
  • Likes hiring lawyers due to their discipline and word economy: “Lawyers by trade tend to be good television writers… Because they specialize in word economy.” (28:23 – 28:50)
  • Recounts his legal beginnings as formative for writing tightly paced stories.

The Joy (and Limits) of Working

• Why He Still Works
  • “I do. I like the writing part the most. I get a little fatigued with the… production side… I still get up in the morning, and if I have a good idea, it still brings me a modicum of joy to put it on paper.” (30:53)
• Creative Control
  • Kelley was given significant responsibility at a young age: “I left Boston, I was a lawyer… Steven Bochco was leaving and said, you’re in charge… I was 33.” (32:14 – 32:19)
  • Emphasizes that focusing on script quality attracts top talent and gives him purpose as a creator.

What Impresses Kelley in Modern TV

• Admiration for Character-driven Stories
  • Seeks out "good, character-driven stories" that combine entertainment, emotion, and social impact (34:29).
  • Praises innovative shows (“Adolescents”, possibly referencing “Euphoria”; discusses impressive filmmaking and craft that almost distract from the narrative in a good way). (34:29 – 35:31)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the evolution of executive culture:
  “Now, that same buyer would not just ask for something different. He would… go into the kitchen and pick out the seasoning, and show you how to cook it. And it’s just a different culture.” (16:09)
• On respecting viewers:
  “Do not dumb down the plot so they can follow along. Count on them to be ahead of you and write up to them, not down.” (17:58)
• On creative freedom as a showrunner:
  “If you take care of the scripts, take care of the material… you can hire talented people to do all of those other jobs.” (32:19)
• On balancing work and passion:
  “If I have a good idea, it still brings me a modicum of joy to put it on paper. If I don’t have a good idea, I don’t feel the need that I must work…” (30:53)
• On why he likes hiring lawyers as writers:
  “Lawyers by trade tend to be good television writers… because they specialize in word economy.” (28:23)
• On the infamous elevator scene from LA Law:
  “I did write that.” (26:03)

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Key Timestamps

• [02:46] Kelley explains his media-shy approach.
• [03:29 – 05:01] Delegation and trusting experts, Bochco’s influence.
• [07:22] Still writing first drafts with pen and paper.
• [08:26] Kelley acknowledges a year of over 50 scripts.
• [11:16 – 12:08] On choosing projects and platforms individually.
• [15:55] “Get out of the way”—ideal for TV execs.
• [17:58] “Write up to the audience”; Bochco’s advice.
• [18:51] Draw to Margo’s Got Money Troubles.
• [22:44 – 22:55] On tackling OnlyFans as a subject.
• [24:46 – 25:00] Comparing past and present TV audience metrics.
• [25:21] Reluctance to reboot old shows.
• [27:07] Attitude toward AI in writing.
• [28:23 – 28:50] Value of lawyers in writers’ rooms.
• [30:53] Still finds joy in writing.
• [32:19] Creative control at a young age.
• [34:29] What impresses Kelley about today’s TV.

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Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, self-deprecating, and warm. Kelley’s humility and dry wit are evident, especially when discussing his avoidance of set visits and interviews, or reflecting on his old-school writing habits. Belloni’s journalistic curiosity prompts honest, insightful responses, making the episode accessible and deeply engaging, especially for listeners interested in the art and business of TV creation.

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For listeners who missed the episode:
This is a candid masterclass in the creative process, industry navigation, and the ongoing magic (and frustrations) of making great television from one of the business’s legends.

Transcript

[Matt Bellany]

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[David E. Kelly]

Yes.

[Matt Bellany]

You don't do a lot of media. I did not. And I was looking for interviews with you and you, you just. There's not a lot out there. Why is that?

[David E. Kelly]

Well, writers tend to write and stay behind the scenes.

[Matt Bellany]

Not anymore. I don't know if you've seen lately, but there's a lot of writers that tend to do a lot of press.

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah, it was never my. My thing, so I like being behind the scenes. I rarely go to the set. I'm most comfortable when I'm at my desk writing and hiding behind the characters. And usually I like to let the characters do the talking for me. So if I'm uncomfortable tonight, you'll. You'll be nice.

[Matt Bellany]

That's okay. I'm very nice to people on the show that wasn't supposed to be funny. So you mentioned that your role on set is unusual and that you don't often go. What has changed the most about your process since you first started creating and writing shows to now?

[David E. Kelly]

Not enough, probably. Really. My first job was a show called LA Law, and we've heard of was a very lucky bounce because in terms of imprinting goes. My first BO was Steven Bochco, and he had a real discipline in terms of the writing writer's room. And it was kind of keep your head down, take care of your product. And I came from a law job before coming out to Los Angeles, and it was a similar discipline. You go in in the morning and you're either writing a brief or preparing your case, and you do what you do. And then you're. You have a willingness to delegate other parts of the craft to those who do what they do. So you'll never see me picking wardrobe. You're not going to see me standing behind a DP telling them what shot to get. I do hear my shows pretty exactly. So the rhythms and the cadence and the tone of. Of the dialogue. I'm pretty specific on the. But beyond that. And again, I got this from Stephen, Your best chance of success is to surround yourself with people who are experts in their particular craft, be it production, design, makeup, wardrobe, cinema, photography. Don't try to tell them how to do their jobs. And if you're lucky, they won't tell you how to do yours.

[Matt Bellany]

But doesn't that annoy you a little bit like that would drive me crazy. Because you watch a show of yours and maybe an actor makes a choice you wouldn't have made, or maybe there's a shot that doesn't capture the scene as you would have wanted it.

[David E. Kelly]

It does happen in broadcast. It happened less just because by virtue of the fact that you're making 22 to 24 episodes, you're really on a Treadmill.

[Matt Bellany]

Right.

[David E. Kelly]

And it just does not allow for actors to ad lib or go off. But and now in the, the, obviously in movies and in the limited series, you have a little more time, so it does allow for that. And then that's really where the, the line needs to be well walked and, and you need to be in sync with your director and producers on the set.

[Matt Bellany]

Do actors ever call you and say, what. What are you thinking here?

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah. No, they will.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay, so you're available.

[David E. Kelly]

I remember the. One of the first shows I ever did, Kathy Baker, was a show called Picket Fences. And she actually. I heard the pounding on my office door. She didn't even call. I just heard a pounding. And Kathy's a very genteel, loving and calm person. And the episode on Picket Fences caused for her to exert some corporal punishment on her child. And it really offended her and she was angry and she said there was no way she was going to do this and say this and we're going to have to figure out another way. And I said, kathy, I want you to just try it and if it doesn't work, we can. And she was so collaborative that I knew it wasn't an actor. Being an actor, she had a serious issue with it. But the fact that it got such a reaction out of her informed me as a writer that if this material had hit a nerve with her, we had a chance of hitting the same nerve with the, the audience and asked her to try it. And she did, to her credit. And she not only performed it, she ended up winning an Emmy for the very scene that she.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, wow. So I was gonna ask if you cut it and you didn't. You used it.

[David E. Kelly]

We used it, yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, and she won. That's interesting. Do you still write your first drafts in pen?

[David E. Kelly]

I do, yeah. My hand is wearing on a little bit, but I do.

[Matt Bellany]

That's amazing, even. But you do have a computer and you do.

[David E. Kelly]

I don't really know how to use it. I turn it over to.

[Matt Bellany]

Wait. People don't print out your emails, do they?

[David E. Kelly]

Do they print out my email?

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, like some. You hear these.

[David E. Kelly]

No, I can print an email. I've evolved that.

[Matt Bellany]

No, no, I know, but, but my point is, like, you're not, you're not emailing people back. You're like looking at them on paper.

[David E. Kelly]

No, no, no, I don't need any.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay.

[David E. Kelly]

I have somewhat entered the digital world.

[Matt Bellany]

Good, good. I was worried there.

[David E. Kelly]

Writing scripts and dialogue. Yeah. I did it for years on a legal pad and that worked for Me. And so I left that part of my process in.

[Matt Bellany]

You mentioned the broadcast days. Have you ever thought about the record for the number of scripts you wrote in a year or a season with your various shows? Sometimes you would have two, even three shows on the air.

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah, I don't know what that number was. It was too many.

[Matt Bellany]

It's probably more than 50.

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah. One year could have been more than 50. Yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

And you are still the only person who has won the comedy and drama series Emmy in the same year.

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah,

[Matt Bellany]

that was for Ally McBeal and for the Practice. What was that night like?

[David E. Kelly]

It was a bit surreal really, because we had one for Ally McBeal that. That came up first for comedy, and then the drama category was next. So I was up backstage because you get up on stage to collect the Emmy and you say something incoherent and hope that your fly is up, and then you get off stage. And I barely just got off stage when I was getting pushed. You need to go back out. You need to go back out. And it was dawning on me that the Practice had won for best drama, which was a shock that night. And even 20 some odd years later is still a bit of a surprise because it was up against the Sopranos and everybody expected the Sopranos to win justifiably. It was an amazing show, as we all know. But yeah, it was one of those nights.

[Matt Bellany]

The process of writing now must be different just because of the volume. And when you approach a show that you know is 8 episodes or 10 even, how is it different than approaching a show that you know is going to be 22?

[David E. Kelly]

Well, when it's 22, do you space stuff out?

[Matt Bellany]

Do you, you know, do you.

[David E. Kelly]

You get a little bit ahead. You start writing in May or June. You've just wrapped really in April, you take a month off and you start writing in May or June, and you're about four or five episodes ahead. So actors and the crew start to get a rhythm, but the. The production catches up with the scripts pretty fast, and then it's quickly turns to one at a time as fast as you can. And you're lucky if you make your prep date by the last two or three episodes. And you do because you're required by guild rules to do so.

[Matt Bellany]

Right.

[David E. Kelly]

But you certainly want to get your hands on that script for a bit of a rewrite toward the end because they start to come out a little too fast and furiously.

[Matt Bellany]

Earlier in your career, you would do deals where you'd be at Fox for four years. You would be at Warner's. You haven't done that in a while. Why don't you have a home studio? I feel like you're working everywhere. Is that because you want right project, right platform, or as you have now, the freedom to do that? What. What's behind the choice that you made to not be based somewhere?

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah, it's a good question. And I go back and forth on the correct answer to that, and I'm not sure what is the correct answer. Ultimately, it's worked for me to be a free agent because it's so difficult to get any show to work these days because there's just so many of them. And your best odds really are a melding of the passion of the creatives and the studio or the platform that's going to distribute your product and with an overall deal. And if. If you're at one home, you may not be guaranteed that they're going to feel the passion for every particular project,

[Matt Bellany]

or they might push you into something that maybe you don't love. So. Correct.

[David E. Kelly]

So as a. As a free agent, it's a very inexact science. But. But I feel that when you birth a project, then you can sort of take the temperature of the buyers and you can get a sense of who shares that passion, who is maybe more ferocious and zealous for wanting to make it. And more times than not, we go with that buyer.

[Matt Bellany]

You've worked at all the streamers. Now, is there a different vibe or different feeling at the different streamers or between streamers and traditional TV outlets?

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah, they're all different. I've had good experiences at almost all of them.

[Matt Bellany]

Almost. Almost. Feel free to share the one that you didn't. But that's.

[David E. Kelly]

Well, the first one was with. With Amazon, was. It was a growth experience, but.

[Matt Bellany]

But not Goliath. Goliath is a great show. It was Goliath. What went wrong on that one?

[David E. Kelly]

Well, they were. It was just new in. In. In the television making days. Yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

That was 2015, 2016, right?

[David E. Kelly]

Something like that. Yeah. So we just. It was fine in the end. We worked it out, but. Yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

And you've gone back there.

[David E. Kelly]

I have not yet.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, you haven't?

[David E. Kelly]

But.

[Matt Bellany]

But I thought you have a project there. May or may.

[David E. Kelly]

Well, we're. We're working with them now, but I'm not. Nothing has come to air yet.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay.

[David E. Kelly]

So. But the regime changes in multiple since.

[Matt Bellany]

Well, the show turned out well, I.

[David E. Kelly]

It did, but. It did, yes.

[Matt Bellany]

Is there a. Is there a platform you haven't worked? You haven't worked at Paramount. Is that right?

[David E. Kelly]

I have not, no.

[Matt Bellany]

Is that by design or just quick?

[David E. Kelly]

No, I just. Again, it's. Usually I put the blinders on with the projects and say, where is the best home for it? There's nobody that I would rule out. I tend to probably favor legacy companies. Not that there are many of them left, but I feel I've worked with all the tech companies and they're very smart people at all of them. But I probably feel more of a connection because I'm old with some of the legacy folks. I remember when I first came out to Los Angeles and being in a room with executives and studio heads and network heads, I felt there was a real camaraderie, that we were all in it for the same reason. We wanted to make film, be it. Or movies, and hoped that if you were lucky, you got to make something you were passionate about and it would also be a good business decision for the company. That's not something that we get every day now. It feels like companies now start to look, what can we sell? And maybe by chance we'll get to make a good product as well. And that. So it's a little bit of the inverse.

[Matt Bellany]

And you feel that in the room with executives?

[David E. Kelly]

I do, yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

Interesting. What makes a good TV executive?

[David E. Kelly]

That's a hard question because it's a very inexact science for me. And I say it probably selfishly from my end, but if I were going to step into the shoes of a platform or studio executive, I think my process would be find the best writers, creators that you can try to land on a project that they're passionate about and let them go.

[Matt Bellany]

Get out of the way.

[David E. Kelly]

Get out of the way.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. And you. But you don't feel like a lot of the streamers get out of the way.

[David E. Kelly]

Not enough? No.

[Matt Bellany]

Why do you think that is?

[David E. Kelly]

It's a culture. It's not that they're not smart.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. There's a lot of the same people that worked in TV before.

[David E. Kelly]

It's. It's very hard to articulate. If I were going to make an analogy 25 years ago, if you go into a restaurant and you didn't like the food, you say, I don't like the food. And what kind of food do you like? Okay. We'll try and bring something back that you like. Now, that same buyer would not just ask for something different. He would. Or she would want to go into the kitchen and pick out the seasoning.

[Matt Bellany]

Sure.

[David E. Kelly]

And show you how to cook it. And it's just a different culture. I've enjoyed all the executives that I've worked with on my most recent projects, but there is way more meddling than there used to be. When I started again in broadcast, remember when I was doing LA Law and then Ally McBeal and the practice, Boston League, you were moving so fast. Curious. Studios and networks did not get cuts of shows. They wanted you to give them a show that made the air date. So we would be making the show when it was done, when it was baked, we would get it to the network and they would be grateful that they could make their delivery date and they would air it and we would all hope that it would be creatively successful. Now, the processes, they want cuts way in advance. They want to weigh in on those cuts. And sometimes it can, it can inure to the benefit of the show and sometimes not.

[Matt Bellany]

It's interesting to hear that from someone like you. I would, I would definitely be in the camp of get out of the way. But I hear you saying different. What's the one thing you learned from Steven Bochco that you still hold with you today?

[David E. Kelly]

Well, I learned many things from him, but probably the one that resonates with me the most is respect the audience. Know they're, they're smart. Do not dumb down the plot so they can follow along. Count on them to be ahead of you and write up to them, not down.

[Matt Bellany]

Do you still adhere to that today?

[David E. Kelly]

I do try. I've gotten dumber, but I still.

[Matt Bellany]

So let's talk a little bit about your current project, Margo. What attracted you to that? And why did it take 30 something years of marriage for you and Michelle to work together on a show?

[David E. Kelly]

Well, the book drew us both to it and we both wanted to do it, so we had to do it

[Matt Bellany]

together, separately or I read that you showed it to her.

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah. The drawing power for I think all the producers and the talent involved was the book written by Rufi Thorpe. It was really. It's very original and affirmative and for me, I always gravitate to strong character pieces and plots that allow you to mine the emotional centers of those characters. And this book did all of that. I think everybody who read it read it as fast as they could and wanted to do it as soon as they'd finished reading it. And with respect to Michelle, when I had read the character of Cheyenne, I could only think of her as doing it and gave her the book and said, you should take a look at this. And she read it and connected with Cheyenne as well. And off we went.

[Matt Bellany]

And how had that not happened before? There just hadn't been that kind of part. Or have you purposely remember most of

[David E. Kelly]

our career, she was in movies and I was in television, and the two didn't really intersect. Now in this day and age, they do actors work both in both mediums. We just agreed that, you know, better to stay in our respective lanes. I'm pretty particular about my creative wants and so is she about hers. So we, why test it? But, but it really, it was pretty easy, at least from my end. I mean, you can see if you've watched the show and you see your work, there's nothing to complain about. She's pretty good.

[Matt Bellany]

She's very good in it.

[David E. Kelly]

I was, I felt pretty lucky as a, as a producer and writer to have an actor of that ilk saying the words.

[Matt Bellany]

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[David E. Kelly]

No, because it was so well done in the book. If you had come to me independently and asked me to do a show about OnlyFans, I would have been daunted.

[Matt Bellany]

You would have said, what is that?

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah, but I felt I had Rufy holding my hand in terms of the research and the subject matter. The characters were very well drawn. And Eva Anderson, who came on to write the show with me, she kind of took custody of. Of a lot of the only fans content stuff because I'm a bit of a prude. So I was sort of don't watch Euphoria get my blinders on on the, the. The story and emotional architecture, but I let Eva run point with some of that nasty stuff.

[Matt Bellany]

Sure. Yeah. We won't spoil anything. Is there a show of yours that you've done that felt. Got the shortest shrift, that did not get a chance to be the show that it would have been sort of your most. The cancellation you regret the most or that you were upset at most about?

[David E. Kelly]

Well, I, I don't really have any. Have much to complain about because most of my shows have.

[Matt Bellany]

But there's been a couple one dones.

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah. And deserve to be one and done.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, deserving.

[David E. Kelly]

I don't, I don't. You know, you swing.

[Matt Bellany]

You're not a fighter. You don't lay down on the train tracks. No.

[David E. Kelly]

Sometimes you swing and a miss and it's not good. And I've done shows that aren't good. So when they get canceled, I say, okay, I get it.

[Matt Bellany]

But there must be shows you think are great that got canceled. Well, because I, I read that, that Harry's Law, for instance, with Kathy's Base, that was the second biggest show in NBC at the time and it got canceled.

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah. And when you talk about, like how the world has changed a little bit, like Margo is considered a pretty huge hit for Apple. And I think. I'm not sure of the data, but I think we're up to 2 million viewers after seven days.

[Matt Bellany]

By the way, they will come and arrest you for saying that publicly. They do not reveal any data.

[David E. Kelly]

It's okay. Harry's Law got canceled with 9 million viewers on one night.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, wow.

[David E. Kelly]

That's how much the world has changed. So.

[Matt Bellany]

And that show, that was NBC.

[David E. Kelly]

That was NBC and that was built to go on. So, yeah, I have a little bit of regret that that got canceled, but overall it was a net positive because I got to work with Kathy Bates for two years, and we were proud of what we got to do, and some win and some don't.

[Matt Bellany]

Is there a show of yours that you would most like to reboot? That seems to be the rage right now.

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah. I'm not a big fan of reboots, and it's. There's not one of my shows that I've ever watched after it's aired. Believe it or not. I kind of look forward and don't look backward. Part of that is you're. You're always tweaking, and once it's aired and done, you can't retweak it. So it's never a pleasant experience when I watch an old show because I'll think, oh, we could have zigged it here instead of zag.

[Matt Bellany]

L A Law is streaming now. You can go back and.

[David E. Kelly]

I know, and I've been. Been enough years that I may not remember the plot that I could go

[Matt Bellany]

back and watch those, you know, that's because the. The famous elevator scene is now a meme that people use, like walking into the elevator shaft.

[David E. Kelly]

I know.

[Matt Bellany]

You didn't write that, did you?

[David E. Kelly]

I did write that.

[Matt Bellany]

You did write that. I. I remember that. I was, I believe, like 9 or 10 years old. I'd have to check the year. I watched that live and it traumatized me. I could not believe that happened on a TV show.

[David E. Kelly]

I'm sorry.

[Matt Bellany]

By the way, it was 67 episodes that you either wrote or produced in the year 2000.

[David E. Kelly]

I don't recommend it.

[Matt Bellany]

I have this as a question. I wrote down and now I feel dumb asking it. You have not fooled around with any AI tools at all.

[David E. Kelly]

Not yet, no.

[Matt Bellany]

Are you interested in that?

[David E. Kelly]

Well, I've used it for research.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's search. Yeah, but you haven't said, you know, write an argument between these characters in the voice of David E. Kelly.

[David E. Kelly]

No, I haven't. I should probably try it, but I have not.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, I did that with Aaron Sorkin. This was a couple years ago, and it. And I said. He said he did it for an episode of the West Wing and it was God awful.

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

And it was bad. I imagine it would be bad.

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah. I'm not. I'm wary. Like, everyone is about AI and skeptical of it, but I don't think it's going to replace the good writing. I don't. It's. It's. I could be wrong. I think it will be a tool that we can use. I'm less worried about the use of AI than the misuse of it because obviously there's a potential for abuse.

[Matt Bellany]

Are you talking about, like, the world ending?

[David E. Kelly]

I'm probably most scary of. More wary of the people who are leading the charge with AI because if you look at the. You know, at the heads of state in our tech world, they're. The last two years, they're creepy. Seems to be no ethical line that they won't cross. And, you know, now I kind of think there is no ethical line. It's just a bottom line with them. So. But I do think it can be a useful tool. But only a tool.

[Matt Bellany]

Sure. Do you like to hire lawyers as writers?

[David E. Kelly]

I do, yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

Why is that?

[David E. Kelly]

Well, if they're good writers, not because

[Matt Bellany]

they're a good lawyer. But you like that in the background.

[David E. Kelly]

I do, yeah. It helps with an authenticity if you're working on a legal project. Also, lawyers by trade tend to be good television writers, or why is that? Because they specialize in word economy. We're trying to tell stories. We have 41, 44, 45 minutes to tell it. The more economical and efficient you can be with your dialogue and also your narrative, the better off you're going to be in Lawyers.

[Matt Bellany]

Clearly you didn't read some of the briefs that I wrote when I was a lawyer, because they were not brief.

[David E. Kelly]

I remember the very first time I stood up as a lawyer, and it was my very first case, actually. And I had practiced my closing argument the night before. I looked in the mirror, and I had all these pregnant pauses planned. I was gonna pretend to lose my way, so I seem more vulnerable and authentic. And we got in a. The prosecution put their case in. I put my case in. And the time had come, and I stood up, I buttoned my coat, and I stood out in front of my podium. And the judge says, hold on, hold on. And he looked at the prosecutor and said, have you got anything more? And the prose said, no. And he says, not guilty. And the client was jumping. I was like. And. And the judge said, counsel, I'm going to. You can come back to chambers and give me your closing if you want.

[Matt Bellany]

That's funny. But.

[David E. Kelly]

But take it from me, nobody wants to hear your story. And I remember when I came out to start writing for television to be mindful of that same discipline. It wasn't that people are going to sit down and say, wax on and give us all you got. You better come out of the gate quickly and efficiently to grab them or you're going to lose them. This is a time before the remote. Now, with the remote, that efficiency is, you know, the need for it is only compounded, and lawyers tend to have a good grasp of that.

[Matt Bellany]

But that's why lawyers like your shows is because you say your characters say all the things in court that they never get to say, and they get to have arguments about politics or gender issues or all these things that any judge would shut down in 10 seconds, but they don't on your shows.

[David E. Kelly]

Yeah. It's much more fun being able to make up the facts.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah.

[David E. Kelly]

And controlled the judge.

[Matt Bellany]

Yes. Do you still like what you do? You work a lot for someone who's had so much success. Like, why do you work so much?

[David E. Kelly]

I do. I like the writing part the most. I get a little fatigued with the. The production side of the fence now and try to delegate more and more of that. But I still get up in the morning, and if I have a good idea, it still brings me a modicum of joy to put it on paper. If I don't have a good idea, I don't feel the need that I must work or must do a television show. It's really project and idea driven at this point. I like to fish, and if there's a day I get up and I want to go fishing, then I'll pick up the fishing rod, and if I have a good idea that's hatching in my brain, I'll pick up the pen.

[Matt Bellany]

Sounds like pretty nice life. Was there a moment in your career when you first felt you had creative control on a project, or do you still not feel like you have creative control?

[David E. Kelly]

No, I feel like creative. It's. When I look back, it just makes no sense to me how much responsibility I got so quickly. I left Boston, I was a lawyer in Boston, and I came out in LA Law in its third year. Steven Bochco was leaving and said, you're in charge.

[Matt Bellany]

How old were you?

[David E. Kelly]

I was 33,

[Matt Bellany]

but that was the. That was back when, like, the heads of the network were 30 years old,

[David E. Kelly]

but I didn't even know what all the positions on the crew were like a grip. I didn't really know truly how television shows worked. I certainly knew the writers. I've been in the writers room for Three years and wrote hard and been in the editing room. So I knew that process. And I remember saying to him, I said, I'm not sure I should have the keys to this car yet, even though I wanted them. And he says, you can do this, you can do this. And if you take care. And again, it goes back to our first question, really. If you take care of the scripts, take care of the material, have an eye for casting, and can be present in the editing room to help realize the material, you can hire talented people to do all of those other jobs. And the more you take care of the word, the bigger the pool, the talent pool will be to fill those other positions. And that was true in la. Steven hired the best of the best on LA Law when I went out to do Picket Fences. And again, all I could sort of lay claim to with the script at that point, the crafts and the department heads and all, they all wanted to come because they had been part of the LA Law experience. Good shows can beget good shows that way. So that's still my favorite thing to do on a television show. If the words have meaning to me, it allows me to delude myself that perhaps they'll have meaning to the audience. And that gives me a sense of purpose, I guess.

[Matt Bellany]

Last question. What are you watching right now and what impresses you?

[David E. Kelly]

Well, there's a lot of. Right now I'm watching Stanley cup hockey because it's time, of course. There's so much great television out there. That's the good. The. The good news and the bad news, because it's so vast that good.

[Matt Bellany]

What impresses you?

[David E. Kelly]

What impresses me for character. Good, character driven stories always, you know, in our shows, in our best episode, we like to entertain and make people laugh and maybe move them on our. The best episodes. And I respect that same achievement in other shows. You know, Adolescents obviously did that, that adolescence. I was almost distracted by how good it was, the filmmaking, you know, the camera, the one shot, it was almost like taken out of the story. Wait, how did they do that? How did they switch? There was a scene where the. Where a camera came out of the car, drone took over and flew, and it almost took me out of the story the first couple episodes because that's just. I'm so dizzied by the craft that it took me out of the story. But once I got used to the construct of the storytelling, I was just blown away like everybody else.

[Matt Bellany]

All right, well, that is our time. I want to thank David E. Kelly for being here. All right, that's the show for today. No call sheet. I want to thank our guest, David E. Kelly, everyone at Puck, who helped us put on the event. Producer Craig Horbeck, Arter, Jon Jones and I want to thank you. We will see you one more time this week.