A (3:10)

Hey, Matt. Thanks for having me.

B (3:12)

So you and I got together last summer when you got the job. And one of the things that surprised me about our conversation was that you told me that you thought the Oscar party was too big, that it got it unwieldy, and that one of the things you wanted to do in your job was to scale it back, make it more exclusive. I chuckled a little at having run a number of parties over the years, including ones that are, I don't want to say coveted, but people expect to be invited. And I immediately thought to myself, this guy doesn't know what he's stepping in. There are going to be so many people who have expected that invite year after year, and he's going to have to tell them or their reps that they are not invited. And so how's that going?

A (4:00)

Look, Matt, I'm in la, I'm in your town, and I never want to leave this place. Every day I wake up in 75 and.

B (4:07)

Okay, that is not an answer. That is not an answer.

A (4:09)

When you have a bad day, when you wake up like this, my phone is blowing up. You might imagine who has screamed the loudest. I've been told to change the name on my hotel room, but no, actually, it's going great. We're a few days away and you know, the Oscar party started in 1994, as most people know something about. But Swift had this very small dinner that he used to do, and when he passed away, my predecessor, Graydon Carter, took it over. He invited a small group, like 100 people for dinner, and then it was an after party for the Oscars. Pretty simple. Over the years, it became an institution unto itself. Where it was a red carpet that nothing is quite the Oscars, but was almost rivaled the Oscars, where it became a destination that was for more than just Hollywood. It was for a group of people that included everyone that was in the magazine, whether it was people from the world of, you know, other parts of culture or politics or.

B (5:09)

Yeah, but the Hollywood people cared the most. It became a status thing where if you were invited, you were somebody. If you weren't invited, you were nobody. So how are you managing that? All these agents, they. They have to tell their client that they're not invited. Because I've talked to publicists and they're like, yeah, they're not inviting the second level agents. They're not inviting the second level studio people, the lower level TV people that may have been fun to invite in the past. Like, they're not invited now. So, like, what. How are you curating this party?

A (5:41)

So we start from scratch. Whenever I do a party, whether, you know, this is my first one at Vanity Fair, at this scale that I worked at Vogue for a long time, you always start from scratch and think about what you want that room to look like. So in this case, the ethos of the party is to make a destination for the winners of the Oscars, People that have been on a odyssey.

B (6:01)

Well, but I'm told you're not inviting all the Oscar nominees.

A (6:05)

All the winners will be.

B (6:06)

Oh, so. So you're talking about winners, even if the. The sound guy, the sound mixing winner can get in?

A (6:12)

Absolutely. You. You. You come with. There's a golden rule. You come with an Oscar, you're coming in.

B (6:16)

And.

A (6:16)

All right, but the.

B (6:17)

But the golden rule is often bastardized by the 10 agents that arrive with Timothee Chalamet or Michael B. Jordan. How are you handling that?

A (6:26)

There's a good story. You know, you win an Oscar, you're coming. That's it.

B (6:31)

But what about your 10 agency people?

A (6:33)

Sure. You win an Oscar, you're coming. And the idea is that you bring that. We want to create an environment that those people want to be in, so they don't necessarily need to see all the people they see all the time. We want to create a room of people that they might want to meet, actually. And whether it's the worlds of tech or politics or journalists themselves, I want it to feel like the magazine itself. You know, like when you flip the pages of the magazine or scroll through it online and it just. It should feel like a mix. You know, you don't want it to feel like everyone that you see in a. In a restaurant in Hollywood every. Every Friday night. Sure.

B (7:07)

No, I get it. But I am looking at some of the people. I perused the red carpet photos last night, and it was chatting with some publicists, and I'm seeing people that were invited for Years. Like David Spade, Lindsay Lohan, Brian Grazer, Matt Bomer, like Katie Couric. Like, who of those people are not invited?

A (7:27)

Now, I'm not going to talk about the guest list specifically, specifically, who did you cut?

B (7:32)

Can we, can I suggest Grazer? Grazer would be my number one to cut.

A (7:37)

But like, you're not, you're not going to get me here. No way. No way.

B (7:41)

Okay. All right.

A (7:42)

The guest.

B (7:43)

Listen, I get it, but, but there is a sense that, you know, while you can fight me on this, but like the magazine, the magazine world in general is not what it was. We all know that the cost of this party, I'm told It costs between 3 and 4 million dollars to throw this party or it has in the past. Isn't this decision to downscale largely to cut costs?

A (8:07)

No, I would say that our, our, our, all of our numbers are up across the board except the invite list.

B (8:15)

Okay, so you're spending the same amount on the party you say, but not inviting.

A (8:19)

I'm not going to talk about our cost and their production, but I would say that, look, the magazines are very different now than they were in the 90s. There's no question that when this magazine started, we used to have one product. We used to have one product that we put out monthly and that was it. Now obviously, a magazine is a podcast, it's a website, it's TikTok, it's Instagram, it's YouTube, it's a film project and it's also an in real life event. You know, like the, the red carpet that we produce is going to be bigger than it's ever been before. And the content that we, I don't love that word, but the content that we make, which is the sentence of which is a live stream, that's, that's as much the magazine as the monthly issue that comes out.

B (9:00)

But you're not letting media inside the party, you say, or at least they're not allowed. Because one of the problems of the party, and people have complained over the years, is that it's a lot of like corporate brand managers from Procter and Gamble and LVMH and people like that that no star wants to see. But you have to invite for advertiser relationships and then you invite in a bunch of media people who are taking Twitter videos of Will Smith on the dance floor. And like, it's just not special. It's Len. It's, it's, it's ended up with a sense of this is something you have to go to make your scene. And then you go to the place you really want to go.

A (9:37)

Absolutely. We want it to be special like that is. It always was. And in looking back to how it started and the original ethos, that's what we're trying to achieve. So you're right. There will be no press inside other than Vanity Fair, no photographers other than a couple that we have for ourselves. I mean, think about it this way, that, like, this is our. We have the exclusive on this story. Why would we give it away?

B (9:58)

Well, because you want press and the advertisers, like, who are your sponsors?

A (10:02)

Sure. But you, But I think that you really. The most important thing is the red carpet is that's, that's the place for all of. To make all the news, to make all of the TikToks and the Instagrams and for people to. That's a place that people actually talk to the press. There's more press than ever on the red carpet. But once you go inside, we're actually going to put stickers on people's phones and ask that they don't use social media.

B (10:23)

Bungalow style.

A (10:24)

Bungalow style, sure. I mean, the best weddings parties that I've been to are the ones that you actually don't see anything from because people are present. It's like a psychological difference as much as a.

B (10:33)

No. It's the Beyonce party. You don't see press from the Beyonce Jay Z party. And it's, it's lended an. An ethos of mystique to it and people want to go because of that. What, we're a business podcast. What is the business of this party? Is this a loss leader? Do you have sponsors now? Who are the sponsors?

A (10:49)

We live in an age of sponsorship, Matt. I know that. I saw that Puck did a, what looked like a great event at the French ambassador's residence in D.C. the other night. And Delta was there front and center.

B (11:02)

Totally. No shame. But is it, is it Delta or is it like skims?

A (11:06)

The livestream itself is the biggest piece of this puzzle. And we have ads in the middle of the live stream. So if you think about it that way, it's like we're creating a show and then we're running, you know, a piece of editorial content that we run advertising against. That's like old school media. So if you think about it that way, that's, that's where you see our, our sponsors show up.

B (11:27)

That makes sense.

A (11:28)

And we're grateful to them.

B (11:29)

But you don't, you don't have them on the step and repeat or anything like that.

A (11:32)

No, no, no.

B (11:33)

And you're moving to lacma. Why lacma? Is that to kind of elevate the brand a little bit?

A (11:38)

We're.

B (11:38)

We're artsy. We can compete with the Met Gala a little bit.

A (11:42)

No, I would never. Are you kidding? I would never.

B (11:45)

Oh, sorry. I touched the third rail there. You are not allowed to say anything competitive with the Met Gala. Anna will have your. Your head.

A (11:52)

No way. It's not smart for anybody. But I would. What I would say is that I went to visit Michael Govan now, maybe a couple of years ago now, and saw from his office, which is across the street, down onto. Onto the lacma, you know, what was the Zumthor building under construction. And I just thought it was extraordinary. And the way he. We have a story that's coming out in our spring issue, the COVID of which launched today, about how he just, against all the haters, through sheer will, was able to make this happen over two decades. And I was so impressed by what he had, what his vision was and how he had, you know, just been able to accomplish it through determination. And I think it's honestly just a really beautiful building. So we are not inside the building. He has his opening in a month, but we are on the LACMA grounds. We're thrilled to be there, and I can't wait to do much more with him. This is like a partnership that we're going to be doing with LACMA around their work and our party over a number of years.

B (12:55)

And you mentioned the COVID It's nice to do a Kylie Jenner cover the week of the Oscars if you really want Timmy to show up at your party, even if he loses. Not that that was the reason. Not that that was the reason.

A (13:08)

It's not the reason. I mean, we also. We put Tiana on the COVID recently.

B (13:11)

And I know, I know I'm giving

A (13:13)

you a hard time, but about Kylie. I'll talk about Kylie for a second because, you know Tina Brown, the editor of Vanity fair in the 80s after, when it revived after Frank Crowninsheld in the Jazz Age, Tina really made Vanity Fair loud. I think Graydon made it grand, and Radhika Jones, my immediate predecessor, made it inclusive. But in all that time, you know, the Kardashians have become a global cultural influence, and none of them have ever been on the COVID before. I found that kind of amazing when I arrived.

B (13:44)

It is weird. Not even Kim.

A (13:46)

Not even Kim.

B (13:47)

So Graydon didn't like the Kardashians. He found them trashy.

A (13:52)

I didn't say that, but I. But I just thought it was a. It reflects the new cast of characters that I want to bring to Vanity Fair. Sure.

B (13:59)

Is Graydon coming to the party?

A (14:02)

Well, I know you invited him. I have said no talking about the guest list, but I have said this already, so it's out there. Yes, Graydon is coming and I'm so thrilled to have him. He was my first boss. I'm happy he's coming.

B (14:16)

This episode is brought to you by AMC. The critically acclaimed series Dark Winds returns for a fourth season from executive producers Robert Redford and George R.R. martin. When a young girl disappears, the Navajo tribal police are pushed beyond their limits, forced to confront unfamiliar land, twisted obsessions and a trail of grisly murders. This season, one thing becomes clear. Justice has no boundaries. Watch Dark Winds Season 4 Sundays at 9pm on AMC or stream anytime on AMC now at the Home Depot. Receive 12 months special financing and free basic installation on carpet projects with lifeproof lifeproof with pet proof technology, home decorators collection and traffic Master carpets bring a new look to your floors or give them a durable surface that stands up to life's tough messes. Get 12 months special financing on installed carpet projects right now at the Home Depot offer valid March 12 through March 29, 2026. Exclusions and additional charges may apply for licenses. See Home Depot.com license numbers. Who's the big get? Who would be the big get for the party this year?

A (15:21)

I want there to be a mix of icons of people that like you just you can't believe there are there. They're still with us, thank God. And they're and you haven't seen them in years. And people that are very right now I think that mix is really important.

B (15:37)

Let's talk about Vandy Fair in general because it has a an interesting relationship with Hollywood and I do think that that relationship has changed a bit over the past decade or so. It, it used to be. And, and why don't you give me your pitch for why Vanity Fair is still relevant in Hollywood and then I'll give you what I think people in town really think of it.

A (15:59)

I would think it celebrates the best of our culture and investigates the forces that propel that culture. So that can be money or politics. The history of Vanny Fair in Hollywood is that it's always had a star on the COVID and we have a Hollywood issue and there's an influence of Hollywood throughout. The way I think about Hollywood is probably a lot less rigid than and I would say more modern than than previous generations have Thought of this town. I think of Hollywood as not just film and television. I think of it also as sports and the influencer culture and business and even fashion, in some ways is show business. And so I. And I don't think of Hollywood just as Los Angeles. It's also. It's global. You know, it's in Korea as much as it is here. And so I would say that when I think of our Hollywood coverage, I don't think of it like a trade publication in the narrow confines of, like, these are the deals that are being done. This is what's going on with Warner Brothers. I think about it as show business and in a much broader point of view, that said, all of some of the best characters. I think, you know, you've been doing a great job covering probably the most interesting business deal in America right now or the world, perhaps, because it involves politics and technology and Hollywood and culture and great personalities. So Hollywood is a place that we want. That we have always been and want to be. I just think of it a little differently in that way.

B (17:33)

Okay, you want to hear what I think?

A (17:35)

Please.

B (17:35)

And I think this is reflective and this is not. I'm not crapping on you at all. I think that Vanity Fair is. Is still a luxury brand. People in Hollywood want to be associated with. Still means something to be on the COVID of Vany Fair. It's one of the five, six magazines still around that still do mean something to people. They want to participate, though they can increasingly dictate the terms of that participation. What I think it has lost. And. And I don't. And I don't say this to be mean. I think it's lost juice. It doesn't have the juice that it once did with the industry where it felt urgent. And you knew that at the end of the day, Graydon wouldn't be afraid to stab someone or to go hard and against the right topic or the right subject. And there was a little bit of today, you'd probably call it snark, but it was the spy magazine ethos. And I just think it's so much more difficult to do that in the age of social media than it was in the old days of magazines that it. It sort of. It has. It has turned BF into a luxury brand, which is not a bad thing. I mean, you still have a category of advertising in fashion that very much wants that, but it doesn't have the same juice.

A (19:02)

We will take on deserving subjects without flinching, and that includes Hollywood. So if you.

B (19:09)

Top of my head, if there is a good story about how Ryan Murphy has, you know, had bad behavior and people hate him and he's had a bunch of flops in a row. You're doing the Ryan Murphy story.

A (19:22)

If there's a story worth doing, we're doing it. There's a. On my first day at Vanity Fair, I talked to the team specifically about politics, but I had noticed that it's related to your point. So let me get there. That magazine journalism had become. I felt too similar to almost advocacy work. Like this idea that if you were going to be in a magazine, it was platforming somebody and that you were putting them forward as an endorsement or something, when in fact, that's not what journalism does. Right, right. And so I said to everyone, you

B (19:57)

got a lot of attention for your Trump cover or your Susie Wiles cover.

A (20:01)

Well, yeah, that was the result of this conversation I had with my team. I said, we're going to go to Washington and Florida and we're going to knock on the doors of the people that run this government and we're going to say, can we talk to you and take your picture in good faith. And turns out Susie Wilde said yes. And we went down to the White House and they invited us in and we did the thing. So I think that that's a good example of what. We're not afraid to pull punches we can punch up. We can. And I would do just the same thing in Hollywood if there was the right story.

B (20:32)

Okay. What does the whole death of access journalism mean to a magazine like Vanity Fair? You just. I mean, I. I have looked at old profiles in VF and elsewhere, and just the level of access and the level of, you know, ability to quote and all of that stuff, it's just gone away. There's no reason for any star of any magnitude to do that.

A (20:57)

I would, frankly.

B (20:58)

There's no reason for you to do that. Why antagonize a publicist or a star by doing an honest portrayal in a profile when you can have their best friend interview them like Vogue does?

A (21:12)

Well, we still do it, so there's that. I mean, I would say you're talking about the death of access journalism. I just talked about a great example of.

B (21:19)

Yeah, but that's politics. That's politics. You could take your swings in politics. You can't take your swings in Hollywood.

A (21:24)

Well, we actually aren't reliant on our FYC business.

B (21:28)

The awards advertising.

A (21:30)

The awards advertising. The studios are partners.

B (21:32)

You rely on access. You want Ryan Murphy to give you the pictures of his new JFK Jr.

A (21:37)

First, I don't assign. Based on fear of retribution. It just, it never works, by the way. You know that better than anybody.

B (21:47)

I agree. Trust me.

A (21:49)

If you pull a story because you're afraid of the response, you're making the wrong decision.

B (21:54)

I think there's a lot of self censorship though, and that's. And it's just, it's not you. I'm not, I'm not harping on you. I think the social media age has flipped the switch on the power dynamic and every single star has more power than any media outlet. So you toe the line.

A (22:09)

Yeah, no, I think, I think that happened in social media. That's true. But audiences see that and I have grown up with that and the idea of having a real profile, you know, I want the profile to mean something. And so if you, if we get. If we are known for having fair profiles of people and that are able, that earn trust both with the, with our audiences and with our subjects, then that actually means something. It's harder work and it's a more long term view of it. But as you know, Matt, you can write and report juicy stories that have access. I'm on your podcast. I listen to it all the time. You have plenty of access.

B (22:49)

Yeah, it's true. It's just a different kind of form. And I came up doing this in this forum. It's harder to steer a brand. I ran into this at Holly Deporter. It's harder to steer a brand where there's a brand and there's an expectation of a certain type of content. And then if you start doing something else, people freak out. Like cutting half the list for the party.

A (23:10)

Well, exactly how interesting would it be if there was a magazine out there that was willing to take a shot?

B (23:15)

Okay, well, we'll. We will see. I got to say, I. I did think you did a nice job with the Hollywood issue this year. I thought it was cool. There was that.

A (23:22)

Cuz you were in it. Matt.

B (23:24)

It was not because I was in it, but. No, I thought it was. I thought there were some good ideas in it and like it felt like a traditional Hollywood issue, but there was some fun things that I did not expect.

A (23:33)

So I appreciate that. Cool. Thank you.

B (23:35)

I'm not here to crap on you. So what does success for you look like? What did they say to you at the beginning? How do you define success for vf?

A (23:44)

I think of the readership of vf like the people that I think about when I'm looking over a lineup are that the readership are the people that are in the magazine, the people that might like to be, and then everyone that is interested enough to buy a ticket to the arena. So I'm always thinking about those people and if that. So I'm trying to listen to all three of those parts of our audience that come in different ways. Some of it is qualitative. Some of it is like data that comes in. But if people, if it resonates with people and it feels like they're getting a window into something, into some world that they're not a part of. Because even if you're like a studio exec, you might not in Hollywood, you might not understand what's happening in the Elysee palace in Paris. I would like to be able to bring people into other worlds. So that's very qualitative. But actually what success looks like is that we're able to accomplish a lot of what you're talking about, what we're talking about right now in terms of access journalism and being able to be known for having fair but exciting and I think some fun stories that exist not only in the magazine, but actually exist across all of the platforms.

B (24:57)

How do you stem the bleeding at these brands? Like, that's what people are curious about in publishing.

A (25:02)

I want subscriptions, I want people. I want to make things that people are willing to pay for. I came up in an era of Google search, which I think was corrosive to journalism, not only because it made us target stories that, you know, we're just going to trend higher, but also because we trained an entire generation of journalists to wake up in the morning, see what was trending already on Google, and go right two to three stories that day based in the voice of their publication.

B (25:29)

I say that to journalists all the time.

A (25:31)

I mean, you know, because you actually do. You know, they don't make phone calls, they don't go out and meet people, they don't develop relationships and go get stories that not just have a take on something, but actually start a conversation. AI promises we'll see what happens, but it promises to wipe away Google search and to aggregate better than your. I said this the other day. Better than your favorite blogger's favorite blog. And so in that world, I really believe in the tools and tenets of old school magazine journalism, that if you are going out there and not only getting the story, but also can package it in a way that is compelling for us, that means original visuals, photography and video, actually great headlines and pull quotes and putting it all together in a way that feels like it's at length. It's an experience to read it or watch it, that I think that will be rewarded with subscriptions.

B (26:25)

And you want a Melania cover.

A (26:27)

I said in that, you know, I.

B (26:29)

You told Emily Sundberg that you want a Melania cover. If she would do a real interview with a real journalist, I would still do it. I agree with you. I would do it too, if I were you. If it was a real interview, if it was, you know, her friend or some, you know, sicko fan doing it, then you get. You get taken down.

A (26:47)

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not that. And I already even know who. Who I want. I'm not going to tell you, but I even know the journalist that I asked to do it.

B (26:55)

Well, good luck to you. I hope that you are not beaten and, you know, carried away this weekend by some irate publicist.

A (27:02)

No one screamed at me yet, Matt.

B (27:04)

You know what? They don't. They don't scream anymore. They stab you in the back.

A (27:08)

I'll wear some bullet. I'll wear a bulletproof vest.

B (27:11)

All right, good. Good for you. And, and I appreciate you coming on and letting me grill you.

A (27:15)

Thanks, Matt. It was nice to see you.

B (27:19)

We are back with the call sheet. Craig, what are you thinking for the ratings this year for the Oscars show? I know I'm going to do a little contest in my newsletter and last year's show was up with Conan hosting. They got to 19.7 million viewers. Not quite 20 million, but 19.7, which was a post Covid high.

C (27:41)

Yes. And it was extra surprising because I think we both thought last year because the movies were a little bit smaller than the year before, which had Oppenheimer and Barbie, the ratings were higher even though it was. Movies like Anora and the Brutalist were the front runners.

B (27:53)

Yeah.

C (27:54)

So I. So I have to imagine that this year the ratings will be up again because I think these movies are buzzier than last year's. And also I believe last year was the first year where you could watch the Oscars on Hulu as a general subscriber, even if you. You didn't have to have Hulu live tv. You could just be a general Hulu subscriber and you could watch the Oscars. So that's the case again.

B (28:14)

That was the first time that they had done that, amazingly, airing the Oscars live on Hulu. But. And the demos were much younger, if you remember, they got a lot more younger people. I think that's attributed to the Hulu move where there's just a younger audience on streaming. And I think Conan brought in some younger people because he has younger fans. This year's tough because I got some data from entertainment Intelligence and you think that the. The movies this year were buzzier.

A (28:42)

But.

B (28:42)

But if you look at the attendance people who saw these movies in theaters, 48 million people saw the 10 best picture nominees in theaters this year. And last year, 65 million people saw these mov the movies in theaters. And I think that was attributed mostly to Wicked and Dune 2, because those were big box office hits. Much bigger than sinners F1 and Marty supreme, which were the biggest draws this year. But I don't know, man. I. So we'll set the line at 19.7. Last year's I'm going to take the under. I just feel like maybe there's a little bit less interest in Conan because he's done it before. I think that you're right. There's not going to be the wicked people that show up. You know, maybe if they have a surge in black viewers because of Sinners, perhaps that could make a difference. But I just don't think that that's enough to boost the ratings from last year.

C (29:42)

You do have K Pop Demon Hunters, Golden. That song will be performed there. That's the most popular movie in Netflix history. And you have. And you have a more competitive and interesting best actor and best picture race with Leo, Timmy, Michael B. Jordan, Center's one battle. All of that should, in theory, lead to more people tuning in at the end, unlike last year when anor and the brutalist people didn't really care as much. I would guess that's true.

B (30:05)

And nobody knew who Mikey Madison was. And Demi Moore is like your mom's favorite star. But you're taking the over.

C (30:12)

Yeah, I'll take the over. Slight over.

A (30:14)

Okay.

B (30:15)

All right.

C (30:15)

And I'll email you and make my bet so that I can win a puck hat or whatever.

B (30:19)

I was gonna say you should. You should enter the contest. We don't. You don't ever enter my contest. And you are ineligible for the puck merch.

C (30:26)

Yeah, I do need more puck merch. I think I only have one hat.

B (30:29)

You do. I know. To go with your many, many A24 hats that they've sent you. Yes, but. All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, Marc Guiducci, producer Craig Horoback, artist Jon Jones, and I want to thank you. One more episode this week. We'll see you tomorrow.

A (30:46)

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