Matt Bellany (3:07)

You too. So it's been a while. You and I both went through the Sony hack on very different sides of the equation. You were experiencing it firsthand, and I was covering it and sort of in daily astonishment of what was going on. Very rare that you see a Hollywood person write a book explicitly about their failure or a time in their life that did not live up to expectations. Why in the world did you do this?

Michael Linton (3:40)

The book, in its entirety is about mistakes. And we interviewed. It goes back to a time I wrote it with Josh Steiner, my partner in this good friend, and he, about a few years back, said to me we were going for a walk. You know, there are all these books about failures that are sort of humble brag books. But what I think is really interesting is mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. Not everybody has the opportunity to have a big failure. Do you want to do this? And I'd been. You know, this thing, the hack, and it's what came afterwards, had been rattling around in my head for years, and I had not been wanting to deal with it. I had not been wanting to really. And I felt like this was a really good opportunity to bring it to the fore. And it wound up to be a great experience.

Matt Bellany (4:23)

Interesting. You find it cathartic almost to sort of put this out there, because you've never really talked about this before kind of right now. I mean, you wrote the book, but this is the first time you're really talking about the experience as you lived through it.

Michael Linton (4:40)

Absolutely. So, yeah, there were a few times that I spoke with the press during that time, and you and I probably spoke then, too. But the minute it was possible to put this in my rearview mirror, I did exactly that, and I never spoke about it. The point to the book and why I did this is by. By never dealing with it, never really understanding why I made the mistake, and obviously being embarrassed and ashamed of what had happened there, it really was not a healthy thing. And by exposing myself to what actually happened and really trying to get to the bottom of it through this interview process, that the book trigger takes place. It was incredibly helpful to me.

Matt Bellany (5:22)

So let's get into this and what you Call your terrible mistake of greenlighting the interview. You say that you made that decision, quoting your words on the fly, outside my normal process. So take us into how this movie came about. We all know the movie that as it came out, the Seth Rogen, James Franco, the interview, Randall Park. But what you reveal in this book is that there was a lot of debate at the time about whether to make this movie even after you greenlit it. So take us through the process and the table read and everything.

Michael Linton (6:01)

So what happened was we had made a lot of movies with Seth Rogen, had real success with him in the R rated comedy. So had Universal. So he had two places to go. He was in an active relationship with both. He presented Amy Pascal with the movie first.

Matt Bellany (6:16)

She was co running the studio with you and running the studio part. You were her boss as the CEO.

Michael Linton (6:21)

Right. And she really wanted to make the movie because everything up until that point had been successful. There was something in the back of my mind at the time that I was a little bit nervous about it. I couldn't quite put my finger on it. And so we both decided to get me comfortable with the whole thing. We would have a table read. Now, because we were in a competitive situation, we had to make the decision very quickly. I walk into a room filled with actors and executives. I was the only guy there in a suit, which was typically my role, the guy sitting there in the dark suit. And the whole thing started and it was hilarious. Everybody was laughing. And when it was over, people were high fiving and saying, let's do this. And for the first time at that point, I'd been in the job for about 11 years, 10 years. We had a very strict process in place as to how we greenlit this thing. It just went out the window. And I said, let's do this. And now I understand perhaps why I made that move. But it was very much out of the norm for me and for the studio.

Matt Bellany (7:28)

You write in the book that for a moment I wanted to hang as an equal with the actors. I had grown tired of playing the responsible adult, of watching the party from the outside while I played Risk.

Michael Linton (7:40)

Correct.

Matt Bellany (7:41)

I mean, that's. That's a pretty nice summary of what it means to be a studio head. You have to be the adult in the room. And what you're saying here is that for the first time in the job, the talent worked on you, they worked you, they worked the room and you fell for it.

Michael Linton (8:00)

I think it was a combination. I think it was absolutely what you say, and it was Also, I had been in the job long enough that I'd got grown a little bit weary of constantly being. Dr. No. Mr. No, because that, that was the job, in effect, and trying to make sure that it was the, you know, the responsible thing to do to make a movie. And you're right, it all went out the window in a moment.

Matt Bellany (8:20)

From Rogan's perspective and from the filmmaker's perspective, you were, you were backing them. They had made you a lot of money. They, they had great creative and comedic instincts. They wanted to do this. And you are, you know, you work at an American studio. You should be able to satirize the leader of a, you know, a fascist regime and not worry about your entire company being attacked. I mean, that, that would be the argument there. But you are saying that you did have those reservations.

Michael Linton (8:54)

You know, they were a little bit in the back of my mind. I can't say they were at the forefront because I wasn't, you know, North Korea in that moment was in a very different place in the American public's eye than it is today. Primarily, I think, because Kim Jong Un was new in the job. His, his father had died a couple of years prior. But, no, there was something, you know, needling me in the back. But in that moment, it just, you know, I responded.

Matt Bellany (9:19)

But then you say that within a week, I had come to my senses and recognized that this time the writers had gone too far with the subject matter. You then asked them to take out the assassination and tone it down, and Rogan, according to you, called you a coward and you relented.

Michael Linton (9:37)

Yes, we. Exactly right.

Matt Bellany (9:41)

Everyone's playing their role here. Everyone's, you know, the filmmakers are doing their thing.

Michael Linton (9:45)

It's totally fair what you're describing. I wrote it. It's exactly what happened. Amy and I had a lot of conversations about it at the time. I got queasy about the whole thing. We did go to him and say, listen, would you take that part of it out? He said, no, that's the whole point. If we don't have that, I'm not interested in making the movie. We'd agreed to make the movie, you know, so we stood by our word.

Matt Bellany (10:06)

And in his defense, it, it's not as funny if it's not Kim Jong Un. I mean, you got to admit that for sure.

Michael Linton (10:13)

Not. The question is, did you have to send a missile and, you know, do what we did at the end of that picture?

Matt Bellany (10:18)

It's funny that you, you are so open about this because you. This has never been revealed during the entirety of the hack. No, it was always that we made the movie we wanted to make, and then we were attacked in an act of cyber terrorism. But you're now saying that for the first time, that we actually tried to pull it back and rein it in, and the filmmaker said no. And we went along and backed the filmmaker.

Michael Linton (10:45)

We actually tried to rein it in twice. We tried to rein it in at the beginning. And then once the picture was shot and we put the trailer out and the North Koreans started threatening us, we tried it again. And on both occasions, the filmmaker stood by, you know, stood by the movie, and we stood by the filmmakers.

Matt Bellany (11:04)

But it's interesting to hear you now say that you. You call that a big mistake. I mean, a lot of studio heads would say, I would do that again. I would back my filmmaker again. But you're not saying that.

Michael Linton (11:17)

No, because I think in retrospect, you got to remember I was working for a Japanese company which has its own specific relationship with North Korea. Not a good one, I should add. It was probably. It was definitely not the responsible thing to do. So in retrospect, what we probably should have done is passed. And, you know, maybe Universal would have said yes.

Matt Bellany (11:36)

A very different hack. We'd be talking about Comcast emails we

Michael Linton (11:39)

would have been talking about. But I will say, once we did say yes, we stood by those guys, and we stood by them all the way through the process.

Matt Bellany (11:49)

You did ultimately get the movie released. Some theaters showed it, and you put it out via Google and Stripe. I remember this very well over the holidays, trying to watch it on streaming platforms and trying to figure out how to. How to watch the movie.

Michael Linton (12:04)

Can you believe that 10 years ago there wasn't streaming platforms or not the way we know them now? Yes, exactly. I know there wasn't a way to get it out now.

Matt Bellany (12:11)

It would be on YouTube in, like, two days.

Michael Linton (12:14)

Yes, for sure. Absolutely.

Matt Bellany (12:16)

Wouldn't have been an issue, although you could have done that at the time. But obviously there wasn't the mechanisms to set up payment and all these other things.

Michael Linton (12:22)

None of it.

Matt Bellany (12:22)

It's funny because you. You obviously, you have a lot of animosity towards some of the journalists that were covering this at the time. I remember you and I having some conversations about that and what we were covering. And we were at Holly to Porter, we were pretty tame in terms of what we were covering in the stolen emails. Some outlets were going really, really far and, you know, publishing very private things about the people. And, you know, we've sort of focused on the business stuff. But, but you say in the book that you are, you still have some animosity towards a lot of those journalists and you have animosity towards Rogan still, where you, you don't think he was apologetic enough for the support that you showed him?

Michael Linton (13:04)

Well, no. So let me qualify both. So on the journalism side, you're 100% right. These were stolen emails and there was a lot of dumpster diving going on. And to your point, you're right, The Hollywood Reporter did report on this with restraint. And they, and they talked about the business side of things. A lot of other outlets did not. And they went deeply into personal matters of different people at the studio. And, and I was really disappointed in that. In the journalist. On Seth, My, my disappointment was not that he wasn't apologetic enough, but that he never acknowledged the fact that all of these folks at Sony had, you know, they were, they were made incredibly uncomfortable. A lot of their personal information was revealed. They had a really tough time of it. And I would have, I would have hoped that he would have thanked them at a very minimum, you know, in some way, shape or form, but he didn't. He chose not to. Now, he was also caught up in all of this. I'm sure he had other.

Matt Bellany (14:01)

Yeah, pretty traumatic, I imagine.

Michael Linton (14:03)

Absolutely. And he, and I never spoke about it afterwards. So I'm sure he's got his side of things as well.

Matt Bellany (14:08)

Well, he's done interviews in the past where he said that he's not even sure it was the North Koreans. He said a couple of years ago. I mean, are you 100% positive it was them?

Michael Linton (14:18)

You know, when the NSA and the federal government tells me it's the North Koreans, I don't have a better source than. So, yes, I think, you know, yes, I would argue it's 100% the North Koreans.

Matt Bellany (14:30)

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Michael Linton (16:27)

You're 100% right that that is sort of the modus operandi for a lot of folks. And you're right that talent can be incredibly seductive. The reason most studios, in fact all studios, I would think, certainly Sony at the time had a whole, and today has a whole process in place to prevent that from happening, in part for that reason. Right. You want to get out of that room. You want to get back.

Matt Bellany (16:50)

That was Amy's job. Yes.

Michael Linton (16:51)

And you want to get back in the room with some sober thinking people who have a couple of financial statements in front of them and some other people there. So you can make a rational decision. But what the book tries to do, because it's talking about mistakes and why people make mistakes is what is the emotion that's coming to the fore in those moments and where is it coming from? And it turns out it comes from a place in most instances, way in your past where, you know, you form a certain way of seeing the world and that gets triggered in that moment.

Matt Bellany (17:24)

So what about your past led you to that moment that caused you to want to hang with the cool kids and Greenlight, the assassination movie?

Michael Linton (17:33)

So what I write in the book is at a very young age, I was moved from the United States to Holland where I didn't speak the language, where I was sort of thrown into the middle of things, my sister and I, and I was extremely lonely for a long period. And it sort of engendered in me a desire to be part of a crowd, you know, part of the cool kids, so to speak, Because I was sitting by myself a lot of the time, and I never really lost that. And in that moment, it sort of came. It rose up and got me motivated to make that decision. I certainly didn't realize it at the time.

Craig Horbeck (18:07)

It's funny because the character that Seth Rogen plays on the studio is kind of similar to what Michael is describing. He was going through at Sony, trying to fit in with the cool actors. That is the character that Seth is playing on the studio a little bit.

Michael Linton (18:21)

That is funny. I've only watched an episode and a half of that show, but you're right, the little bit I saw of it, he definitely plays that role.

Matt Bellany (18:29)

Yeah. And it's actually kind of a running joke in an episode of about the talent, charming him and trying to get things out of him. Greta Lee is trying to get the private plane to a premiere, and someone else is trying to get the movie greenlit. It's like everybody, as a studio head, everybody wants things out of you, and they're going to use whatever charms they have to try to get it. It seems like that's kind of part

Michael Linton (18:55)

of the job, 100%, and that's why you wind up saying no most of

Matt Bellany (19:01)

the time and why you don't go to the table read and why you

Michael Linton (19:05)

do not go to the table read. If it weren't set up like this, in a competitive situation where we had to make a decision in the moment, I never would have been in that room ever. I never went to table reads.

Matt Bellany (19:16)

And it wasn't a financial decision. I'm sure the interview looked great on paper. I mean, the movie, it was this other thing that was hovering over it that. That ended up becoming the problem.

Michael Linton (19:26)

Exactly. Exactly. No, from a financial standpoint, given Seth's track record and given what that movie cost, it was an easy decision, frankly.

Matt Bellany (19:34)

You describe in the book how you define mistakes differently from failures.

Michael Linton (19:40)

Yeah.

Matt Bellany (19:40)

Can you explain that for us?

Michael Linton (19:41)

Mistakes. And this is. It's an interest. This is an interesting one to look at. Failures are when people come together and in a very methodical way, come to a decision that has ambition. Like something should. Big should happen, and then for whatever reason, it doesn't work. Mistakes are when a single individual, and in this case, despite the fact that there were a lot of people in that room, I was the person. I was the only person who was holding out for a decision. When one individual who's pretty emotionally charged Makes the decision in the moment and bad things happen as a result. And that's exactly what happened here. And everybody. Everybody makes mistakes, and we make them all day long. It turns out not that many people actually have the opportunity to have failures.

Matt Bellany (20:28)

You would describe the Sony hack and what led to it as a mistake or a failure?

Michael Linton (20:34)

I would describe it as my mistake. My mistake that I made in that moment. Yeah. And nothing that I can honestly say,

Matt Bellany (20:43)

by the way, the emails are still online. You can still go and search those emails. How is that possible?

Michael Linton (20:48)

Well, I mean, in the middle of all this, we forget the cast of characters. You probably don't, because you were around then. Julian Assange.

Matt Bellany (20:55)

Julian Assange, he was holed up in

Michael Linton (20:57)

the Ecuadorian embassy in London, and he decided that he would wiki all of my emails to demonstrate to the world what a US executive's correspondence looked like. And that's how.

Matt Bellany (21:10)

What a guy.

Michael Linton (21:11)

You know, what a guy, what a guy. I have him to thank.

Matt Bellany (21:16)

Do you still have a little bit of animosity towards the people that didn't speak up in Sony's defense? I mean, at the time, the mayor of LA wasn't in your corner. The MPAA that you paid $20 million a year in dues to didn't do anything for you guys. The President Obama was, you know, kind of threw you under the bus at that press conference that was kind of. That was famously covered. And you write about there was not a lot of voices in your corner.

Michael Linton (21:42)

No. Well, in fairness to President Obama, he was caught in the moment as I described in the pie, subsequently called me and apologized for it. So I don't blame him. But you're right, and I write this in the book. In a previous life, I'd been in publishing, and I'd gotten to Penguin Books a few years after the Satanic Verses were published. And there the whole publishing community came around. Penguin and the bookstore owners were supportive. In this case, nobody. Nobody from the studio world. As you point out, the MPAA wasn't there. There was only one voice that was public on the subject, and that was George Clooney. And he was incredibly good. He was courageous. He came forward, he. He spoke his mind, and I'm very indebted to him.

Matt Bellany (22:25)

Why didn't anyone else? Were they afraid?

Michael Linton (22:27)

They were. They were. I mean, by way of example. So if you think about it, for Satanic Verses, every bookstore in America carried that book. When I went around, when the. When the theater owners finally said they wouldn't carry it, I started calling Facebook, Netflix, you name it. Because there were places to get it out. Everybody was worried they would get hacked. Same with the studios. When I started asking around, like, why aren't you guys coming forward and helping out? Same thing. Everybody was worried about getting hacked, so they, you know, that the North Koreans might turn on them. So there wasn't anybody out there supporting us. It was really disappointing.

Matt Bellany (23:01)

You fear that they're still out there and you're now talking about this again?

Michael Linton (23:05)

No, I don't worry about that. Not lately. I have no plan.

Matt Bellany (23:08)

I imagine that you. You put a lot less in email these days.

Michael Linton (23:11)

I never put that much in the first place, but I certainly don't put much there now. That's for certain.

Matt Bellany (23:16)

Yeah, that's for certain. All right, so I want to talk a little bit about the state of the business since I've got you on the show. And it almost feels like you got out at the exact right time in 2017. Does the Hollywood that is going through what it's going through right now, does it bear any resemblance to the Hollywood that you left in 2017 in your mind?

Michael Linton (23:37)

Yeah.

Matt Bellany (23:38)

No.

Michael Linton (23:38)

I mean, a lot of same people are there and a lot of the same companies are there, for sure. But overall, it's radically different. You know, it's as, you know, the streamers have upended everything at this point, and you combine that with where the state of affairs is as far as Los Angeles is concerned, and it's pretty unrecognizable to me. When I go back to L. A, which I just did in the fall for a period, because we sold our house there finally. I was. I was really surprised by how the city has been affected. I really was.

Matt Bellany (24:09)

How so? I mean, just the. Just the. The lack of activity.

Michael Linton (24:13)

Yeah. Going on. I think the city is in danger of becoming the sunny version of Detroit.

Matt Bellany (24:18)

Yeah.

Michael Linton (24:18)

I was slightly stuck, and that's just

Matt Bellany (24:20)

because of the flight of production and the downturn in content production and all of it.

Michael Linton (24:25)

Exactly. I, you know, I went to a couple of studios because I had time on my hands to. For lunch. People asked me over. There was nothing being shot. There was. It was like going into one of those. Not that I did it at the time, but going around a factory, I can imagine, in Michigan in the.

Matt Bellany (24:40)

In the.

Michael Linton (24:40)

In the 80s, you know, it was.

Matt Bellany (24:42)

It's.

Michael Linton (24:42)

It was really something.

Matt Bellany (24:44)

What would you do about that?

Michael Linton (24:45)

What would I do about it? I mean, I think.

Matt Bellany (24:47)

And not to put you on the spot and ask you to. Massive problems.

Michael Linton (24:51)

I don't know enough at this point. Point to understand what economics would bring movies back. But I do need. I do think at this point, we need. The industry needs some real incentives that are based in Los Angeles for to return production there.

Matt Bellany (25:04)

Interesting. You know, Sony went after Paramount when that was for sale. The Ellison got it. Now the Ellisons are going after Warner Brothers, as is Netflix, which has a deal. What's your perspective on that situation and how it might play out?

Michael Linton (25:19)

I. You know what? I know enough from having been in some of those rooms because, you know, I was part of that consortium that bought MGM to know that if you're not in the room, you really don't know what's going on. I know what you know, Matt, which is. I'm. You know, I'm reading it in the papers. It appears right now that Paramount has an opening, but I have no idea where that comes out. I'm sure people have a better understanding of it than I do.

Matt Bellany (25:42)

It's just. It's an interesting perch from Snap. Looking at this 100-year-old film and television business and where it is right now compared to where the digital players are right now. Is it more exciting than your old job is?

Michael Linton (26:01)

What more exciting is being part of

Matt Bellany (26:03)

a digital player like Snap with a growth trajectory, looking at the next 50 years of content versus a film and television studio that maybe has seen its best days behind it?

Michael Linton (26:16)

No, no. Both were really fun and both are really interesting. I think the reason why it's so dramatic, what's going on in Hollywood at the moment is, if you think about it, you mentioned 100 years, those six or seven players that were there, or six players, they were pretty much there until about 15 years ago, 10 years ago, without anything happening. To me, it. It's. If you look at it, it's probably the most stable industry in the history of American business. The same folks have been around for a hundred years, and finally now it's shifting through consolidation and everything else. Different owners.

Matt Bellany (26:49)

And the Internet.

Michael Linton (26:50)

And the Internet. And the Internet, absolutely. That changed it.

Matt Bellany (26:53)

All right, so back to your book. For my final question. What do you want people to take away from this? If. If people in the industry are looking at your experience and what you wrote in your book, what's the lesson from making mistakes and how you have dealt with them in your life?

Michael Linton (27:10)

Well, I mean, I'm not sure I would deal with them in the way that I used to deal with them. Let's focus on maybe how I'm dealing with it in this instance, since that piece that just came out, there's an excerpt in the Wall Street Journal. I've gotten a bunch of people who still remember me reaching out from Los Angeles and saying, wow, you're really honest. I made mistakes like that, too. I'm not sure that I would be that honest. And as I mentioned earlier in the conversation, it's been really helpful to me. The point to the book is exactly that. The point to the book is really to not avert your eyes, to really try and understand what it is that caused you to make the mistake in the first place, and then equally to try and deal with, in an honest way, the ramifications of the mistake, not to sort of bury it and stick it in a drawer. And I think, you know, we all make mistakes. I dare say in Hollywood, we make a lot of mistakes all the time because you're making decisions on your own. And a lot of those things are filled with emotion. I think the town would benefit from reading the book and dealing with mistakes differently. I know I did.

Matt Bellany (28:13)

Well, the other lesson is stay away from charming and charismatic movie stars.

Michael Linton (28:18)

That is always true. That is always true. That's a true statement.

Matt Bellany (28:23)

All right, well, Michael, thanks for coming on the show. Appreciate it.

Michael Linton (28:25)

Thank you very much. I'll talk to you soon.

Matt Bellany (28:29)

We are back with the call sheet. Craig, have you been to any of these Timothy Chalamet career retrospective events that are going on in la?

Craig Horbeck (28:36)

No, but I did see that he was at my local pizza shop recently.

Matt Bellany (28:39)

So he was. I just missed him strategically dining out in Brentwood to reach the Oscar voters that are deciding on his fate right now.

Michael Linton (28:46)

No.

Craig Horbeck (28:47)

Is. Is he the youngest actor ever to do a career retrospective?

Matt Bellany (28:50)

That. I mean, it's. It's ridiculous the fact that they're doing this. But if, you know the Oscar race and how it works, very difficult for a young actor to win best Actor. The Academy loves to vote young actresses for best actress, but it's very difficult. He would be the youngest winner in, I think, you know, 30 something years to win.

Craig Horbeck (29:11)

And so he'd be the second youngest ever, I believe, behind Adrien Brody.

Matt Bellany (29:15)

Yes. So what is his campaign doing? They're like, oh, we're going to show everybody that he does have a body of work, that he has worked with amazing filmmakers. He might be 30, but he's got Chris Nolan. He worked on Interstellar. He's got Denis Villeneuve with the Dune movies. He's got Luca Guadagnino with Call me by your name. I mean, he's got these filmmakers.

Craig Horbeck (29:36)

He's got Greta Gerwig twice.

Matt Bellany (29:37)

Greta Gerwig Amazing. They're doing this, and it's an extremely smart campaign move. Leo has, you know, the body of work and the history with the Academy and that was their weakness. And now they are showing the Academy that it's okay to vote for Timmy because he has put in his dues. And this is causing me to change my tide on this. I am going to now switch my. I was very much in the Leo camp. Despite the odds, despite the momentum for Timmy. I thought that Leo would win the SAG and that Leo would win the BAFTA and ultimately win the Oscar. I. I'm changing that. I'm going. The Timmy campaign has been too good. I'm changing my vote to Chalamet.

Craig Horbeck (30:19)

I mean, he's a heavy favorite now. If you look at all the gambling odds, he's basically a 4 to 1 favorite. So not exactly a hot take, but maybe those odds are going to get even worse. You should get your money in.

Matt Bellany (30:27)

Now, I'm not saying that I'm going out on a limb here, but I was officially telling people that I thought Leo would be an upset.

Craig Horbeck (30:34)

And now you're convinced. I think it's helped Timmy. This is his third best actor nomination, and I think it helped that he had another one last year because it almost feels like. Yeah, like it's a little more earned. Like it's not out of the blue that he just had one that he didn't win for and people thought he had a chance. And so now that this is happening again, I do think there's a little bit of. It's easy to come around to the fact that he deserves it this time because he just lost last year.

Matt Bellany (30:59)

Yeah. And these are all about endorsements. When you trot out a Chris Nolan or a Denis Villeneuve, this is a mark of acceptance that this guy is one of us and we are putting our stamp of approval on him and on you for voting for him. And there's a lot.

Craig Horbeck (31:16)

Why isn't Leo doing this?

Matt Bellany (31:17)

He. I mean, he has done stuff. He's popped up at different things, but he doesn't need to. What do we need? Do we need, you know, Martin Scorsese to show up and be like, yeah, I love working with Leo. I mean, sure, it would help, but he doesn't do. And also, Leo's already won an Oscar, so he's going to do what he needs to do to, like, help the film win Best Picture. But if he doesn't win, like, okay, whatever, Timmy wins.

Craig Horbeck (31:41)

So you think it's almost a sign of Leo growing up. It's a sign of maturity that he is not thirsting for the Oscar.

Matt Bellany (31:46)

I do. It makes me kind of want him to win a little bit more. But he doesn't need this. And, and I'm not saying he's not doing anything. He's doing a lot for him, actually. Yeah. The fact that he's showing up at these events and he's done some press and he's done screenings with different people, but you don't see, I mean, he went to Santa Barbara and did that whole rigmarole there. Timmy is really working it, and I think people respond to that kind of enthusiasm. You need to tell these voters that you want to win for them to feel like they should endorse you. And he's doing it, and I think it's going to work. All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, Michael Linton, producer Craig Horbeck, Arters, Jesse Lopez and Jon Jones. And I want to thank you. We'll see you next week.

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