C. Thi Nguyen is a philosopher at the University of Utah, a former food writer for the Los Angeles Times, a rock climber, and one of the world's leading thinkers on the philosophy of games. His new book, The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game, argues that games are the defining art form of our era, and that the scoring systems that make them so joyful turn quietly destructive when institutions and apps wield them instead. In this conversation, Zoë and Brendan talk with CT about why ultrarunning is a game in the deepest philosophical sense, his concept of value capture and why it explains your relationship with Strava better than you'd like, what carbon plates and trekking poles reveal about game design, and why Bernard Suits, the philosopher who defined play as "voluntarily taking on unnecessary obstacles", thought games might literally be the meaning of life. Also: fly fishing pickup artists, the shot clock, elite yo-yoing, and Zoë's Smash Mouth Strava segment situation.

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Our featured race is the Baker Trail Ultra Challenge, a 50-mile point-to-point through the Cook Forest stretches of the North Country Trail in Western Pennsylvania with 6,200 feet of climbing and a three-part commemorative medal — complete all three sections and you get the full set. Registration closes August 28. Sign up at UltraSignup.com.

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