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This episode is brought to you by Amazon. Sometimes the most painful part of getting sick is the getting better part. Waiting on hold for an appointment, sitting in crowded waiting rooms, standing in line at the pharmacy. That's painful. Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy remove those painful parts of getting better with things like 24. 7 virtual visits and prescriptions delivered to your door. Thanks to Amazon Pharmacy and Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful.
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Foreign hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Treatment Room podcast. I'm your host, Tessa Zolli, licensed esthetician. And today our topic is the truth about estrogen. And I'm so excited to welcome our guest of the show, Jan Marini, founder of Jan Marini Skin Research.
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A
Tess, it's so good to see you, as always.
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B
Great to see you. How are you doing?
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A
I'm doing great and I. This is a really good subject. It's trending in social media.
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B
I saw Vogue has called estrogen the magic bullet of skin care.
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A
Well, we're going to talk about that. I just had a physician call me the other day, as a matter of fact, and wanted to just chat with me about estrogen because they're getting so many patients asking about it, and I think it's. I think it's just really important, you know, to discuss it in a kind of a factual way.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. So why do you think estrogen is trending on social media? And why are patients, especially women, so interested in it?
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A
Well, you know, it's really just about piece of the puzzle. But let me just take you back a little bit, because there was a study that was done in the 80s, and that study resurfaced. And that's one of the primary reasons people have interest. So the study was, is that they took females over the age of 60 that were postmenopausal and they gave them a vaginal estrogen cream, which is basically like any other cream, you know, put it on your face. And what they found is that There was a 40 to 60% lessening in Pore size. The skin was smoother, the skin was plumper, the skin just was more hydrated. And that's, that's positive. But that's been the study, an old study, which didn't really get into depth and didn't get into all the pros and cons. That has really gotten people's attention. And so, you know, it. That's, that's really what it's about. But I think that first of all, you know, is it really going to make a significant difference in your skin as compared to what, are there other things that will make a more significant difference? Is it safe? Can I really be assured that I'm not going to get breast or reproductive cancer? And what about phytoestrogens? Because that's one of the things we're going to be talking about. Because phytoestrogens can be incredibly helpful for what we're talking about topically. So it's a good subject. There's pros and cons here. This is going to sound very positive, but first of all, technically, estrogen is a steroidal hormone, and it's associated with female reproductive organs. It's responsible for developing female sexual characteristics, maintains the thickness of the vaginal walls, it promotes lubrication, regulates the menstrual cycle. It affects reproduction because it helps to stimulate the growth of the egg follicle. And when, you know, if you're pregnant, for example, your hair grows thicker, grows quicker. People get really lush hair. And this is something that individuals kind of look at estrogen. Like, is this something that's going to be a panacea for me? Because 50% of all females will experience female pattern baldness, which is not like male pattern baldness, but it's just diffuse thinness. It also affects the urinary tract and it affects the heart, it affects blood vessels, bones, our breasts, skin, hair, mucous membranes, pelvic muscles, the brain. It could help the skin to maintain a more youthful appearance, but there's limitations on this. Now, one of the reasons why we start to see changes, particularly around perimenopause, is because we actually have more receptor sites in our facial skin for estrogen than anywhere in the body except the vaginal area, the vagina itself. So estrogen does play a role in things like, you know, how your skin having things like hyaluronic acid, it actually helps to maintain that, to stimulate it. And also, you know, estrogen plays a role in bone resorption. So we talk about estrogen helping to keep our bones strong. Well, we have bones in our face as well, and we're going to have bone reception when we get into recession, when we get into our 60s and 70s. So. Yes. Does it play a role in all of that? It absolutely does.
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B
Have you seen any impressive before and afters that kind of showcase, what you're talking about?
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A
I haven't.
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B
Okay.
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A
Because what we're going to get into is when we look at the aging process, we're looking at discoloration, we're looking at things like an acne is even. We can put that into the aging category because, as you know, so many adult women have acne or rosacea. There's so many other things that go into that and that estrogen doesn't even begin to touch. I think it's helpful for everybody to know what the main forms of estrogen are. So first of all, estradiol, which is known as E2, is the most potent and active form of estrogen. This is the primary form that's produced during reproductive years. It's also the most common form that's prescribed for hormone therapy, replacement therapy. So if you take hormones internally, usually it's going to be some form of estradiol. Then there's estriol, which is known as E3. It's weaker than estradiol, but it's the primary form that's produced during pregnancy. Then the final one is estrone. E, S, T, R, O, N, E that's known as E1. That's what you make after menopause.
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B
And I guess I'm curious, like, how are we even deriving the estrogen?
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A
Well, for example, if you're taking hormone replacement therapy and one of the really common forms is something called Premarin, it's known as conjugated estrogens and it comes from pregnant marrow urine. Now, if I were going to just from my own, I would say preference and I don't take internal hormones. But it's a discussion you would have with your physician and that's a discussion as to whether somebody even takes internal hormones because we're really talking about topical today. But if you're taking internal hormones and you have that discussion with your physician, they can make bioidentical hormones now, bioidentical hormones. And I think there's even one that you can you get by prescription that is ready made or you can, your doctor might send you to a compounding pharmacist. But what they do is they actually, it's identical to your own hormones. And they make it either by using some type of a bacteria as a base to grow it on or, or yeast or some type of a medium. And so it's, you're not getting pregnant marine your hormones from pregnant mari urine. It's bioidentical. Some physicians feel that there's less risk with that. And also with Premarin, you're getting a synthetic progesterone. So it's estrogen and it's progesterone. There are a lot of studies that are kind of contradictory, but in some circles it was felt that synthetic progesterone could possibly be less protective against heart disease. It could possibly also not give you the benefits of maybe the brain functioning, that it might even be detrimental. It's gone back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. So in terms of the, the internal use, you know, you kind of have to have a discussion with your physician. But I think what everybody really wants to know is how it affects the skin. Yes, it can have really significant effects on the skin because we have all these receptor sites for estrogen. And that's why so many times people will see these changes. Like they'll say, gee, Jan, it's like somebody let the air out of my face. Because you're not producing as much of those hygroscopic substances, which is actually something that estrogen can help to trigger. It moderates things like keratinocytes and dermal fibroblasts and melanocytes and hair follicles and sebaceous glands. And it helps to maintain dermal thickness. So that would be collagen. And then again, I talked about those glycosaminoglycans. Those are the substances that are in between the cells on the stratum corneum, those dead cells that should lay like shingles on a roof. And they're in between them are, are the mucopolysaccharides, the ceramides, the phospholipids and hyaluronic acid. So it helps to maintain those. It helps kind of stimulate him a little bit. And it does play a fairly significant role in the production of hyaluronic acid. Now, some studies show that skin aging can be delayed to some extent by the administration of estrogen, whether it is topically or whether it's internally. And there haven't been any real significant studies that have said, well, gee, you're going to get a better result with them. If you take it internally, you might get a better result topically. Probably taking it internally may ultimately produce more significant results because part of the aging process is also how you feel and your hot flashes and everything else that goes on. So when you're producing less estrogen, also for many women, their skin is drier, they have less hair up here, more hair on the face, they have less skin elasticity. So it may also play a role in helping to prevent as much facial fat loss. So as we age, we also lose fat in the face, which is important because it gives out that three dimensional volume and it may play a role in the distribution of fat pockets. So you, you know, it's great to have some fat in your face, which is, you want fat to be. If you do anything with, if, if you're. If you need to have cosmetic work done, you want to reposition your fat, you don't want to remove it. You want to put it back where it should be, because, again, it gives the space that nice fullness and softness. And so it may, though, help to prevent it from being distributed sort of unevenly or end up places where you don't want. It may help to prevent bone resorption. We talked about that a little bit. Because bones are the framework that the face hangs on. And so if you've just got too much bone for your face or too much face for your bones, then it starts to look kind of saggy. It may help to have some extent in protecting cells from oxidative damage. And again, elastin. So, you know, elastin is kind of what gives the skin that more tightness in that spring. And then you asked how perimenopause and menopause can affect it. Okay, so here's the deal. So when you turn 20, we've talked about this before, but when you turn 20, you're kind of fully cooked. And now you're going into a catabolic state from an anabolic state. And so in that catabolic state, that's when we start to slowly kind of decline, and we see the aging process both internally and externally. Now, from that point, you're going to start to lose about 1 to 2% collagen a year. And the collagen is 80% of your dermis. So you want a really thin, compact stratum corneum. You want to look like baby skin, not your pores are not, you know, hopefully less visible, and the skin looks radiant and smooth, but you want a really thick dermis. So from about 20, you're going to lose 1 to 2%. Now, if you've been a sunbather in the past, it's going to be more. If you're still a sunbather, it's going to be more. If you're a smoker, it's going to be more. And your lifestyle is going to play a role in this and also your diet. Then you hit perimenopause, okay, that's going to be between the ages of 37 and 39. So between perimenopause and menopause, those years, menopause, on the average 49 to 51, you're going to lose more collagen, and it could jump to almost 5% a year. And again, it's worse, depending on your Diet, maybe you're not getting enough protein, you know, sun exposure, you're not protecting yourself indoors and outdoors. So at that point in perimenopause, you know, people, women are always surprised because they're not in menopause. And they think, why am I seeing all these changes? Well, perimenopause is where all those changes start to take place because your hormones are changing. Menopause is kind of after the fact. Almost everything sort of stops. So it's when you hit you. So when you get into that state, usually drier skin, but sometimes people's skin can be oilier. You've seen that sometimes they have acne breakouts, sometimes their acne clears up and they start to see more of a thinning dermis and wrinkles. Now at menopause, when in the first three to five years, you'll lose another 30 to 50% of your dermis.
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B
It's not fair.
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A
Then after that first three to five years, you're going to lose roughly 21% per year. Over the next 20 years, you lose 85% of your dermis.
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B
Wow.
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A
And that's why when you see people that. Nothing wrong with this, but, I mean, go to a convalescent hospital rest home and you see people that are in their 70s and 80s and beyond, and it's just their skin is hanging in folds because they've lost most of their dermis. Women, because of this, women age twice as fast as men from menopause on in terms of the appearance of aging. So the overall result, if your estrogen deficit is that, you know, your dermis is going to be thinner, you're going to have decreased elasticity, increased wrinkling, increased drying, reduced vascularity, decreased wound healing. So I'm saying all this and everybody's probably thinking, oh, my gosh, I got to go run out and get some estrogen. But that's actually not the way this conversation is going to go. Okay.
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B
Yeah, yeah. No, I'm intrigued. It sounds like you have pros and cons.
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A
Yeah.
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B
At what age are we seeing the most significant estrogen drop?
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A
Well, again, we're seeing it. Really. Where we start to see where it's real noticeable is in perimenopause, because what.
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B
Age would that be?
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A
Well, excuse me, I shouldn't say that. Yeah, you're going to see the most significant estrogen drop in your. In perimenopausal years. So that's going to be between 37 and 39 is perimenopause. And it's going to be that space between perimenopause and menopause. So let's say from 37 and it differs with everyone to around 49 to 51. And that's when you're really going to start to see a more significant drop. And that's, I mean, again, it's so different for different people because some people say, well, you know what, all of a sudden I just don't sleep through the night or I get hot flashes, or I feel like I have brain fog all the time. Now I was really fortunate. I'm in like the 1 to 2 percentile. I've never had any symptoms. That could be because, and I can't prove it. It could be because I started around the age of, I'm going to say 42, 43, taking a phytoestrogen kind of, I'll get more into that. But a phytoestrogen which is a plant based estrogen. And there's evidence that that can be very helpful. Now people, people that have taken phytoestrogens, sometimes it helps with their hot flashes, sometimes it does nothing because it's not going to be that form of estrogen. That's bioidentical, et cetera. And hot flashes are another whole issue. And I, and I feel really, I have tremendous empathy for anybody that goes through that. But for me it was extremely helpful and I think that that was probably a big part of why I did not experience literally any symptoms.
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B
Okay, so do you think we as women need to be taking the estrogen replacement therapy?
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A
So I think it's a really a personal issue because I'll tell you something, I know people that are just in hot flash hell. I mean, it is something where it's unpredictable, but when it happens, sometimes they're having hot flashes multiple times in an hour, they're sweating, they're miserable, they don't sleep well. And so if that were me, I would definitely probably talk to my physician and say I need to take something orally. My mother was that way and she took estrogen into her 80s, believe it or not. Now did she have any kind of reproductive cancer? No. Did she have breast cancer? No. But it's something you have to talk with your physician about because there are risks, there's pros and cons with that, but that's something that controls most of those kinds of issues significantly. And if it were me, I'd probably look more into the b. Bioidentical.
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B
Okay. Yeah. Do you want to talk about some of the options for estrogen replacement?
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A
Okay, so here's what we're hearing in the media, and this is just all over everything, what they're doing is they're taking things like vaginal estrogen creams, which would be like Premarin cream, for example. There's probably more than one brand, but the main brand is Premarin cream, which is estradiol. That's the, the most potent form of estrogen, and they're using it on their face. They're also taking estriol creams. And you can even get an Estriol cream on Amazon without a prescription. Don't ask me how that can be. But it's. There's, there's one that's a very big seller. They're also using synthetic estrogen creams. So some companies are promoting, and there's companies that have sprung up just to promote topical estrogen. Now, here are some of the upsides. Possible upsides may help to prevent or lessen the loss of facial fat. May help to prevent, possibly or lessen some bone resorption in the face. Okay. Estrogen does have an increase in collagen. We'll get into how much estrogen. So the dermal thickness, it may help to stimulate some hyaluronic acid and mucopolysaccharides and phospholipids. And all of those things may help to reduce wrinkles. Now, the wrinkle reduction that they've shown in studies did not occur until after 24 months of application. Now, you and I know how often do you give somebody a product in a week if they don't see something, they're like, well, I don't know, it's not working.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So if I were going to charge you for 24 months on the hope because you're trusting me. So hope and trust that you're going to see some wrinkle reduction and then how much? Because sometimes when you see medical studies and they talk about wrinkle reduction, is it something that's really noticeable in a photograph? Sometimes. Not necessarily. What they're doing is they're saying is it's statistically significant. That means that maybe in terms of if you're looking at under a great deal of magnification or you're looking at it from a metaphor perspective, you're seeing a difference. It may make the skin feel somewhat firmer and plumper. It may help to reduce the appearance of pores, because when we can stimulate some collagen, one of the reasons your pores enlarge is because you have retended matter. And the other reason is because your pores are surrounded by collagen and so it acts like Spanx. Well, think about if that collagen starts to lessen, it's like your Spanx giving out and your pore gets a little flabby. So what are the negatives of topical estrogen? It may be systemically absorbed. Now, I'm going to just tell you, I've looked at study after study. There's some studies that say, well, it's highly unlikely. Now, that's good news. But do I want it's not going to happen, or do I want it's unlikely to happen. And is it unlikely to have reproductive cancer, breast cancer, or is it definitely not going to give you reproductive. I mean, I'd like more definitive answers. There are studies that say that, yes, it could possibly be implicated in those kinds of cancers. And there's also a study in which, for example, they put a topical estrogen on one area of the body, like, say you put it on your arm and then the skin up here improved. So it actually had to travel or have systemic absorption. So the studies just are not really concise. They're not really definitive. So it could have an effect. Could it have an effect? Well, there's studies out there to say, yes, it could in some individuals, particularly if you're predisposed to breast cancer or uterine cancer.
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B
Obviously, you know, estrogen is prescribed sometimes for hormones. I've had clients with PCOs who are recommended these estrogen creams. Wouldn't that imply it is absorbed and it affects the hormones in the body?
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A
Well, it depends on how you're. If you're doing it in a patch or if you're just putting it on. For example, if you're just putting it on your face. Again, the studies are not conclusive. If you're doing it in a patch, it's meant to be absorbed. So you're getting something that is designed to be absorbed. Although patches supposedly are safer because they're absorbed a little differently. So it just depends on the vehicle and the modality and all of that.
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B
Okay, that makes sense. And I think you were going to talk about some other risks that we should know about.
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A
Well, those are the risks. But you know, what it comes down to is, well, okay, what does it mean we use topic loss or not? Because what I just said, it makes it sound like that it's going to be something that's really great. So I'm going to break this down again a little bit further because I want people to understand when they talk about aging, I Want them to understand whether or not this is actually a good. Let's say this is the most. Let's say this is the most safe thing that you could possibly do, that you could be guaranteed that it's not going to have any effect on your reproduction. Reproduction or, you know, cancer, reproductive cancer or breast cancer. Let's just say that we'll play devil's advocate. Would it still give you a good result? Okay, so first of all, number one, 90 to 95% of what we perceive as an inevitable aging. So you look in the mirror and you start to see the first signs of aging, whether it's large pores, textural changes, fine lines, brown spots, whatever it is that is sun exposure, most of which happen before the age of 10. Takes 10, 20, 30 years to show up. It's programmed into your DNA. Estrogen does not reverse sun damage. So that's number one. Everybody has to understand that estrogen is not research. And if you've had a lot of sun damage and you using estrogen because somebody said, oh yeah, it's going to induce collagen, it does not induce collagen to any great degree in sun damaged skin. It has to be non sun damaged skin. So it may not be very helpful.
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B
So you're saying once the collagen is damaged by the sun, it cannot be repaired.
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A
It's not just the collagen, it's the fact that your DNA has been comp. In other words, your DNA is what shoots out the instructions that your body looks at. These instructions, that's the only thing the body uses. Whether it's going to be healing, whether it's going to be repair, whether it's smiling, blinking. You'd be a puddle of goo if you didn't have those instructions. So they're very compromised as you get into your 20s. And this is the reason why we slowly start to see the aging process. So that if you've got a lot of, let's just say, damage in there, you've got the instructions of being highly compromised. Estrogen doesn't reverse that. And estrogen does not manage facial discoloration. On the contrary, what happens when somebody's pregnant? Melasma, cholasma. What happens with sun exposure? Okay, now when we talk about that, it has an effect on melanocytes in pregnancy. Estriol stimulates melanocytes. So in some individuals you may worsen your facial discoloration.
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B
That's interesting.
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A
It doesn't manage acne to any significant degree. Now, with that said, they do give birth control pills for Acne and how birth control works is that the birth control binds up testosterone. But in general, the statistics are one third of the time the birth control pill will make acne better, one third of the time it doesn't do anything, and one third of the time it makes it worse. But for adult acne, I guarantee you, you can smear all the estrogen you want on your face and you deal with acne all the time. This is one of your specialties. It's not going to make it go away. Now, let's contrast that. And by the way, it doesn't have anything to do with the instructions coming from your DNA. It doesn't correct any of that and it's not going to correct your rosacea.
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B
Does it have any effect on inflammation, any benefit for inflammation?
- [27:58]
A
Possibly. But you know, estrogen is also a vascular dilator. So if you have rosacea, it may not be helpful. Now, let's talk about retinoids, for example. I'm going to contrast this. Retinoids are the gold standard for acne. They're the gold standard for discoloration, rosacea and aging. The right retinoid, and this is a medical fact, the right retinoid will thicken the dermis up to 50%. You're talking about contrasting that with estrogen, topical estrogen, it only thickens it a small. A much smaller percentage. And the Aesthetic Journal, the Aesthetic Surgery Journal, has a new study that shows that if you've used retinol at a year, you've thickened your dermis by 80%. 80%. Now think about that. To see a modest decrease in fine lines and wrinkles, you've got to use an estrogen cream for 24 months, okay? The other thing about retinoids is that those instructions coming from your DNA, that your DNA remembers everything that's ever happened to you, it's programmed into that DNA. If you were left out in the sun when you were a baby, if you, whatever you ate, whatever you did, everything you've ever done is in that DNA. The right retinoid corrects instructions coming from your DNA. So when we put people on skin care management, we put people on a retinoid. I mean, it's extraordinary what can happen. And it happens very, very quickly. So then we look at glycolic, because glycolic is another major component in skin care management and also the aging process, acne, discoloration, all of that. So glycolic literally reorganizes the epidermis. It thins and compacts the stratum Corneum. Remember I said you want a really thin, organized stratum corneum, because your skin just looks so much more glowing and so much more radiant and smoother and more refined. And you see, you know, when you use glycolic acid, you see a difference in a day or two, huge difference. And also glycolic acid stimulates significantly those glycosaminoglycans. So the mucopolysaccharides, the ceramides, the phospholipids, and the hyaluronic acid. Glycolic acid alone will thicken the dermis by about 33%. And it is a very potent anti inflammatory. Keep in mind, aging is considered an inflammatory process. Then we have, and I'm just kind of talking about sort of the skin care management system. Retinoid is separate, but you use a retinoid with a skin care management system. Siesta serum. Siesta serum, for example, actually causes muscle shortening at the neuromuscular junction. Now, this is a study that was presented at the American Academy of Dermatology. Half face, double blind, round and placebo. So your brain produces neurotransmitters, one of which is acetylcholine, a major neurotransmitter. Every single nerve in your body sparks acetylcholine into the muscle. And what it does is it causes the muscles to contract. You can call that, if you want, you can call that muscle tone. But when we get older, I don't care how much you exercise, you're not going to have the same muscle tone as somebody who's 20 or 25. Well, it also, the facial nerve sparks it into the muscle. And it's one of the things that helps to keep your cheek pads kind of nice and high and your jawline defined. It's not the only aspect of the aging process. It's another piece of the puzzle. And so what this does is this actually kind of causes the skin to pull up and look much firmer. And the effect is not temporary. If you use this, let's say, for six months and you stop using it, the skin simply aged back. And that was demonstrated in that study. It also helps with collagen production. It's also a very powerful anti inflammatory. Now, estrogen doesn't do anything with muscle shortening or your acetylcholine. Then we have transformation. Now, one of the things in transformation is transferring growth factor beta 1. Dr. Guido of Jefferson University determined that it stimulates a type of collagen you don't produce after the age of 30. And he was actually quoted as saying, this is just the thing to keep the skin young indefinitely. I also have a patented ingredient in there that helps to also correct instructions coming from DNA. And so it regulates the production of pro collagen type 1, which is the most significant collagen and the most abundant collagen we have in our skin. And I could kind of go on and on. So what I'm trying to try to do is to contrast that plus the technologies that we're talking about can give you complete total clearing. There's no cure for acne. We can give you complete total clearing. There's no cure for rosacea, but we can manage rosacea. We can manage discoloration. Okay, so does that mean that you should never put estrogen on your skin? And I talked about, I mentioned phytoestrogens. So I do think that there's a role for estrogen in conjunction with if I stopped using my retinoid, if I stop using my bioclear, my skin care management system, all those things, I guarantee you, first of all, I would be breaking out. I can't even tell you. I keep old driver's license pictures. And my skin is better now than it was when I was in my 30s. And I'm going to be 73 in December. So I absolutely am dependent on those technologies that are proven to truly reverse a lot of the appearance of sun damage. So the answer from my perspective is phytoestrogens. Now, this is actually kind of a well kept secret, but we do make a phytoestrogen cream. It actually is in the dry skin kit and it's called age intervention. And one of the reasons that it's in the dry skin kit is because, first of all, it's the most emollient cream that we make. But also, typically people that complain with dry skin, usually they are in that age range that we're talking about. And so one of the things that they're experiencing is they're experiencing drier skin because they're not producing the glycosaminoglycans as much. And their skin is simply drier and they're losing volume. And so what this does is it kind of fools your skin into thinking you're producing a fuller complement of hormones. And it. And people notice a significant difference in terms of the moisturization of the skin. In particular, they'll say, gee, you know, I've used tons of moisturizers, but this kind of feels like it's moisturized from the inside out. Now here's the thing about age intervention, one other thing that I want to mention, it also has something in it called Interferon Alpha 2B. Interferon Alpha 2B is an immune messenger that your body produces. It's also injected for malignant melanoma, hepatitis C, because what it does is it kind of, I guess you could say, revs up your immune system so that it's better able to suppress things like hepatitis C, which is a virus, or malignant melanoma, things like that. Aging. The definition of aging is a loss of capacity and immune function and aging every organ in the body, including the skin. If we can increase the skin's immune function, it can make a significant role in helping to overcome these kinds of opportunistic aging issues and sun exposure, et cetera. We also have something in there that is a chemical that comes from algae. So it's not algae. It's a chemical analogy that repairs your DNA up to 47% at one time. And there's anti inflammatories and there's a number of phytoestrogens. Now, the ones that tend to be the most potent and tend to have the best effect on the skin are isoflavonoids, are basically a soy isoflavonoid. And then also we use red clover. This is very close to the strongest form of estrogen, and they complement each other. So when you talk about estrogen in general, you're talking about that skin dryness can be reduced 29 to 33%. That's nice. I can reduce it a lot more with retinoids and other things. But it's. Again, it's very helpful. Facial wrinkles can be reduced 22 to 24%. Again, with a retinoid, it can be a lot more, but it helps it. It helps with increasing hyaluronic acid. All those things that we talked about. And here's the good news. Here's the good news. And this is from the National Institute of Cancer, so I can say this definitively. They bind to receptor sites and they compete with estradiol. They compete with estriol. And so it blocks them, it blocks bad estrogens from having this issue. In terms of possible reproductive of breast cancer. Studies show that they are protective against breast and reproductive cancer. So if you're taking them internally, they're protective. If you're using it topically, it's protective.
- [38:17]
B
I don't know if we clarified this for the listeners, Jan, but what is the exact difference between a phytoestrogen and just a normal form of Estrogen, it comes from plants such as the algae or the red clover.
- [38:33]
A
No, it's, it's, it's generally soy would be probably the one that's the most potent. And then the other one would be, we use is red clover.
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B
Okay. And the age intervention cream, you were saying with a normal estrogen cream, it would take about two years to maybe see a difference in aging. How would that compare to the age intervention cream?
- [39:02]
A
So the age intervention cream, first of all, because it has anti inflammatories, it has peptides, it has a lot of other technologies in there, you're going to see a difference right away, but over time you're also going to get the benefits that you would get from doing a phytoestrogen. And plus you're using it in conjunction with the system. So if you go to our website, if you go to your website and you see before and after pictures that were done with retinoids, you notice in four or five weeks, people that have significantly deep Right. Hides or wrinkles, there is a significant lessening and it's more than you would get with an estrogen cream.
- [39:46]
B
In general, I don't have a ton of clients with wrinkles, but I do know with my, well, I should say substantial wrinkles since most of my clients are under 30. But since I know a lot of them listen to this podcast, podcast, they're interested in age management but also treating acne. How do you think age intervention cream would work for an acne prone person?
- [40:13]
A
So it's, it's totally non comedogenic. And you know, there's a number of different ways to use this. So for example, I'm not, I'm not a real dry skinned person. I'm more on the, I guess you'd say normal side tendency, maybe to be a little bit combination in the summertime, more combination, wintertime, drier. But what I do is I like to use age intervention at night over my transformation cream. Now, do I look a little glowy? Yes, but nobody's gonna see me. And you wake up in the morning, your skin is just so nice and soft and dewy. So there's ways that you can work it in. Or if somebody wanted to use transformation in the morning and they wanted to use the age intervention at night, again, there's ways that you can, it's very easy to work it into the system. Very easy.
- [41:00]
B
And so you would recommend layering it with tfc. Can you use it on its own?
- [41:10]
A
Yeah, you can use that on its own. But I, I love transformation And I, I like that technology. So when I put it over the top, I feel like I'm getting both of them. But again, you could use one in the morning, you can use one at night. There's just so many ways to do that. And the thing that I'm really trying to emphasize here is that there's so many things that estrogen cannot do. If, when I'm talking with somebody, the question I'm asking them, I don't care if it's a world famous physician, an A list celebrity, if there was something you change or improve about your skin, what would it be? So my, the first thing that I might hear, and I just talked with somebody yesterday who's very famous and they have problems with acne. And this is somebody that's probably late 30s, early 40s. So their main thing was acne. Okay, what else would you like to change or improve? Well, I have some discoloration. What else would you like to change or improve? Well, you know, it goes on three or four different things that people generally have in general. That's your Runway. Okay, so if we back that up, what if I said to that person, well, you know what, all of your concerns are going to go away because we're just going to give you an estrogen cream. Would their acne go away? No. Would their discoloration go away? No. Now, that doesn't mean that they might not notice any positive benefit at all. But that's not what they didn't say to me. Well, you know what? I have perfect skin. I just want to see a little bit of a positive benefit, just a little bit. And in general, whether it is discoloration, whether it's rosacea, whether it's fine lines, large pores, people have specific concerns. If we didn't put estrogen into the equation at all, I can literally transform the appearance of skin. And it's also something that we're doing this preventative because the right retinoid actually corrects instructions coming from your DNA. That's a medical fact. So I always like to say I can take two twin girls, identical DNA, same skin care program. One goes on a retinoid, one doesn't. And 10 years, one will look 10 or 20 years younger than their sister. Let's just say they're both on the same program. Let's say they both put estrogen on their face. The one who's using the retinoid, the right retinoid, is going to look 10 or 20 years younger than her sister in the next 10 years. So it's like all of the ingredients that I come across and I research all the time and have to determine what am I going to put into a product. It has to have something that's really going to be significant. So it might be a good supporting player, it might be something that has benefit. You know, to make a product you don't just depend on four or five different ingredients, but it has to be calibrated in a way in which is it really going to make a difference on a specific skin concern? Because that's what it's about from my perspective, it's about solutions. It's about providing real solutions, not just giving somebody another product.
- [44:29]
B
Yeah. That also makes me want to ask you because before doing this episode, I was researching topical estrogen. I saw so many brands, Jan, offering these estrogen creams. Do you think it's ethical to sell topical estrogen to the general public with just a over the counter product?
- [44:52]
A
So there is, you know, and I don't want to say anything real negative about a specific brand, but there are is one company in particular, I'm sure there's probably more than one, but one in particular that is fairly recent and you can go online and answer a questionnaire and then supposedly a physician looks over that questionnaire and provides you with a prescription for that product. I think they may do internal hormones as well. There was a reporter that did a very interesting, did something very interesting. First of all, they went online to this company and they filled the questionnaire out in a way in which they had no indication that they had any kind of genetic predisposition to any kind of breast cancer, reproductive cancer. And so came back fine, you know, we're going to prescribe this for you. And then they went back a second time, but filled it out in a way in which all the red flags, you know, maybe they have family members that have reproductive cancers or they have a genetic, what, whatever. And you know what, they still got the same prescription.
- [46:05]
B
Yeah. I mean, and with a lot of these online forums, etc. It just seems like there's a lot of room for error. Questions can be vague. Maybe somebody forgets to include something important. But I mean, there's definitely a big market and it seems like companies are taking advantage.
- [46:31]
A
Well, again, I think that you have to really kind of read through all the hype. You have to sift through all of the hype. And also you really have to focus again on what is it that you want to change or improve. And aging is a collection of all kinds of issues. It's not just. I guarantee you, if somebody. Have you ever seen anybody that has a lot of fine lines that doesn't have one brown spot on their face by the age of 35, every human on the face of the earth, if you've got skin, you'll have abnormal pigmentation. You know, have you ever seen somebody that has acne or even just aging in general that doesn't have larger pores? So you have to kind of look at it that way and say, are these the things that I want to address? Do I want my skin to look sort of red carpet ready, so to speak? Do I want to make foundation optional?
- [47:24]
B
Right, right. Yeah. I mean, it's a lot. I think people feel like it's probably a lot more work to consider all those smaller things. So when they see something that seems like a panacea and they're noticing this rapid decline in aging, it seems like, okay, that's the answer. And they may not, may not be asking a lot of questions because I've definitely had a lot of clients write to me saying I don't want to age. Should I get the estrogen cream? So this at least gives us more information to consider.
- [48:04]
A
It's such a much more in depth subject because for example, if I were talking to somebody and I get interviewed a lot on nutrition and aging, some of the things that I would recommend to somebody. So a lot of what aging has to do with it has to do with your sirtuins. You have about 24 sirtuins or anti aging genes. So what happens is they start to kind of shut down and it's like having a car in your driveway that's in perfect condition. There's not a dent on it, but it doesn't have any gasoline in the tank. And sirtuins depend on a certain type of protein which is known as nicotinamide, diatinamide, diaclunide, I can't even say the whole name. But anyway, it depends on a certain type of protein. And so estrogen has nothing to do with that. What we can do is we can actually stimulate those proteins. And that's been a lot of research has been done on this with substances like nad, nicotinamide rubicide, which is not a prescription NAD or nmn. I recommend both of those. And also third, something to put the pedal on the, put the foot on the pedal. And that would be resveratrol. Now in my opinion, that's going to do have a tremendous effect on your physicality overall, aging brain and even your exterior, maybe more so than ESTROGEN in some respects. So we have to put it in perspective. And it doesn't mean that we shouldn't work with estrogens, doesn't mean that at all. But it's just one of those things that's kind of the flavor of the month right now.
- [49:55]
B
Did that study from the 80s, how did that come up again recently?
- [50:01]
A
You know, I don't know. But, you know, it's just. It's like with a lot of things, somebody goes back and they come across it and all of a sudden they give it a lot of media exposure. And there's probably been other studies since then, but that's the one that I was so surprised to be coming across that again, because I talked about that back in the 80s. Funny.
- [50:25]
B
Do you think there's going to be more emerging technology and studies around estrogen for beauty?
- [50:36]
A
I think that it is going to kind of reach a bit of a peak and then it's going to die down and something else will take its place. It's, you know, another one that's kind of in the same genre in a way. We hear a lot about, for example, exosomes. I bet, as I say this, people are going, oh, yeah, I hear about exosomes. Exosomes are like almost like little packets that flow through your bloodstream and there's a ton of them in fat cells or in. If you extract fat from the body. There's lots of exosomes in there and a lot of stem cells. And they have things that really have an effect on how your skin functions. In fact, if we could extract exosomes, we called stromovascular factor, and we might not even ever need fillers or anything because it would help to stimulate fat and collagen and all of that. But we're not at that point. Exosomes, in order to work, have to have a blood supply. So, for example, if I were going to. If you were interested in fat transfer, you know, people do a lot of fat transfer, particularly with Faceless, Give the face more dimension. You would have to inject that fat and would have to find a blood supply. And the reason why a lot of times people don't keep as much of that fat is because it doesn't all find a blood supply, it dies. Okay? Exosomes are no different. If I said to you, here's a jar of fat, I want you to rub it on your face, well, you'd laugh at me because what is that going to do? That's not the same as injecting it. Well, it's the same thing with exosomes. If I hand you this bottle, there's nothing. I guarantee there's nothing in there that's alive. Nothing in there that is going to find a blood supply. Now, sometimes they take things that are in exosomes. Just like exosomes have peptides, exosomes have growth factors. Exomes have lots of things. You can take those things and they can have a beneficial influence on the skin, but they're not exosomes. And so, but we get into our head, we see a study or we see something and we get it and we go, oh, my God, this is the Holy Grail, the fountain of youth. And it's the same thing with estrogen right now. And it was the same thing with stem cells. So before exosomes, everybody was into stem cells. They were even taking stem cells out of apples. And believe me, that's another one. You can't mate with an apple. You don't have the same DNA, so it's useless. Now, it might have something in there, peptides or something that maybe makes the skin feel a little bit better, but you just kind of have to put it in perspective and really focus on what it is you want to change or improve. And I always say, think about. If you could address all of your skin concerns. Think about how you feel about your skin. And all the time when we address these concerns and people say, oh, my gosh, I can't believe it. Everybody's stopping me and telling me, asking me if I had some kind of procedure done. And people are so excited because they're looking in the mirror and it's not. It's their acne, it's their. Their rosacea is their discoloration, is their pore size, and then it's how youthful and how much more lifted their skin looks. And I. Somebody told me and said, you know, I'm. The biggest problem I have is that I had somebody get really mad at me because she said I was keeping from her the procedure that she had had done. They were just convinced that she'd had some type of surgery on her skin. And so you really can get some significant changes in the appearance of skin. And if it was estrogen, believe me, I could do estrogen the same as anybody else. I do believe in phytoestrogens. I think they are helpful.
- [54:35]
B
Awesome. Well, this has been so fascinating. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing all this great information.
- [54:45]
A
Thank you so much. I really always. Well, you know, I so always enjoy talking.
- [54:50]
B
I had a great time we so appreciate you joining us, and we look forward to the next one.
- [54:56]
A
Yes. Thank you. And thank you, everybody, because I wouldn't be here without you.
- [55:01]
B
Thank you so much. We'll talk to you next time.