Kayla Brantley (2:54)

And joining us now is former chief Neil Lowe, who's A former investigator with the Seattle police department and has reviewed the evidence in Cobain's death. Neil, thank you for being here. This has been such a big story. You were a police officer in Seattle in 1994 when Kurt Cobain was found dead. Can you take us back to that time, Walk us through the circumstances of his death and if at the time, there was anything suspicious. Suspicious versus now, with all of this new evidence that's come to light.

Neil Lowe (3:28)

Well, I think there were things that were suspicious, Just that nobody was there that gave it a hard look. I was in a different precinct. I just made lieutenant. I was in south precinct. And they had put out a notice to our roll calls, which read to the patrol officers before they go out on the streets. And it was supposedly Kurt's mother. We'll come back to that. Reporting that he was in town possibly and was possibly suicidal, and he escaped drug treatment. Pretty close to that. So that really didn't impact my precinct. Within a couple days that they found curtin, he was dead. And it seemed to match up with the predicted story. I think that set the tone for what happened when the detectives finally got to Kurt's house. They went in there with the mindset, okay, here we have a. This is really doing kind of like a heroin epidemic in Seattle. We have a rocker, he's done heroin, and he's dead, and end of story. So homicide detectives didn't really want to process it. It's just like, there's no suspect here. He's laying on the floor. And our protocol was that patrol officers would handle everyday suicides. And so they were trying to kick the case to patrol. And patrol was rightfully saying, this is a pretty big hot potato here. You guys investigate it. So captain Larry farrar brought up the big squad of detectives, and they showed up and, well, I didn't like the photo. I saw them when you. You see them in the greenhouse up there, and their arms are like this, and they're leaning back. And a couple of guys are working or helping, but all they're doing is helping patrol write the report. They didn't collect evidence in. In the sense that they didn't scrape fingernails. They didn't bag his hands. And I have a real problem with what I saw in the photographs. When they finally came out of Kurt's hand, the one that was supposedly holding the shotgun. You know, it's kind of gruesome, but I don't know how else to put it. Have you ever shaken a coke bottle or can and tried to drink it and have it come out your nose. Imagine that happening if something goes in, if you know physics, something's got to come out. The buckshot, it wasn't buckshot. It was bird shot that went into Kurt's brain, scrambled and the pellets were contained in his skull. But it should, all that force should have forced some blood splatter or blowback out through where the hole was made. And I would expect to have seen it all over his hand, on his clothing. And those are the things I wanted to see more of. I, I filed a public disclosure and

Kayla Brantley (6:21)

there was none of that, none of

Neil Lowe (6:22)

that, none of that in the photos I saw. And I said, well, show me more photos. There's another possibility. If, you know, like if I put my hand over the screen and sprayed it like this, then took my hand up, you would see the negative pattern from where my hand had been. And I wanted to see if there was that on his clothing, like it had been sprayed there or could there have been another hand. And yeah, I wanted to see that spray pattern, but I, my own department referred me to the public disclosure process and that everything's been released. And I know the photos are, there are more photos and the medical examiner probably has more photos. I'd like to see those too and make a better determination.

Kayla Brantley (7:03)

And what are some of the other key evidence, whether it's in the photos or anything else, that really points to this not being just an open and shut suicide case?

Neil Lowe (7:14)

It starts with that letter that was found up there. I don't think that's a suicide letter. And I'm trying to think of a tactful way to put it. The public information officer was not qualified to make that opinion. A she should not have released those details because let's assume that Courtney, she's down in la, she looks at the national news to find out that her husband's been killed or died up in Seattle. That's not the way it's done. Medical examiner is supposed to make this call, but the PIO flipped that out, that, oh yeah, he was found, the shotgun was in the room in a suicide note. And I said, well, what kind of training do you have to determine that that's a suicide note? I've read that suicide note. I have a blowup of it hanging in my garage. So I can look at it.

Kayla Brantley (8:05)

What does that suicide note convey to you?

Neil Lowe (8:08)

To me, it was written in at least two different times, two different parts. He wrote that on an IHOP place map. And if you've seen the original, that's what it is it has the curly edges around it as opposed to the photocopies. They don't have that. And the top part starts out with like a note to Bodhisattva. And I think it's Kurt saying, this is me leaving rock and roll. I can't perform anymore. I'm not Freddie Mercury. This just doesn't do it for me. And then it looks like the bottom. The handwriting gets bigger and sloppier, and I still don't see in it. Of course, I've taken a lot of writing and reading classes. I don't see in it that this is a suicide note. I see it. Goodbye, I'm leaving. This is why I'm leaving. It doesn't say, I'm killing myself. This is why I'm leaving.

Kayla Brantley (9:05)

Leaving music, you're saying, not leaving the world.

Neil Lowe (9:08)

Okay, yeah. In my thought, it was like, okay, he's going to run off and live in the mountains in Idaho or something like that. He is done with public performing. And this is about not him missing Lollapalooza. He. And so he's having to write this out. I think somebody picked up the note and maybe finished the bottom. And so this part that keeps popping up is, oh, Courtney's the best, blah, blah, blah. That was the same dribble that was found on the note on the stairs in the house. He may have taken dictation on it, but he didn't write that note. Supposedly, the Kurt, the one found on the stair. And then you have that same language used in the suicide note. No, there's a common author here, and it's not Kurt. And so I would like the real note to be analyzed by real handwriting analyst. And they're saying, oh, yeah, well, the note's been analyzed. Oh, how could you analyze a note if it's not the real note? If you have a photocopy of a photocopy.

Kayla Brantley (10:06)

Right. You need the exact note, the exact note, the original copy, the paper.

Neil Lowe (10:10)

You need to see the pin under microscope, the indentations it makes. Is there hesitation? Is there drawing of letters and whatnot? I don't think the public information officer was qualified to make any of those decisions and comments, but she did. And that's the direction the investigation took. This is the party line, and we're going to stick to it. And I'm looking at this. You know, that was 30 years ago when this happened. So nobody's there that it's going to reflect back on there. Everybody's retired or moved on or died. Why don't you take Another look and I'm too old to solve it. By the way, I told Matt Bell that in an interview two years ago. It's over. I'm done. A new generation is going to have to do that. Fortunately, it looks like people are stepping up.

Kayla Brantley (10:58)

We're taking a quick break after this.

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Today

Kayla Brantley (12:13)

I do want to talk about the autopsy report. Originally that was withheld from the public. What are things, you know that were in this report that you found interesting or change your perspective on what could have happened?

Neil Lowe (12:25)

The 150 milligrams of heroin in his body. That is beyond bizarre. A full needle would be like 50 milligrams. So would he use a crock pot to cook all that? Where was the crock pot at? Who administered to him? Because we've talked to people that were heroin users. They said, well, you know, if I did more than one needle, I would have had to have somebody help me with the second needle because it affects them right away. They start to lose control. Like, have you ever had a surgery where you had to do the 10 count, you know, like while they're putting you under?

Kayla Brantley (13:00)

Yeah.

Neil Lowe (13:00)

How far did you make it? I made it to about eight.

Kayla Brantley (13:02)

Yeah.

Neil Lowe (13:03)

And I was gone.

Kayla Brantley (13:04)

Yeah.

Neil Lowe (13:05)

Okay.

Kayla Brantley (13:05)

Maybe seven.

Neil Lowe (13:06)

Maybe seven. Okay. That would be. Heroin would be. You'd be gone. So what are you doing? How did you get all three. Three needles into you and then where did the coordination come to? Button your buttons on your long sleeve shirt so they're. You're all nice and tidy. Kurt was not a nice and tidy guy. I don't think he would have.

Kayla Brantley (13:25)

Interesting.

Neil Lowe (13:26)

I don't think he would have worried about the buttons. And then The. The heroin kit is right there where you could find it. And you could, say, argue, well, he left it there because he didn't care anymore. And I think. I didn't know he's, you know, pretty attached to Francis, so that was just too convenient for me. And I read things about Kurt's hair being, like, pulled back, indicating that he might have been drugged across the floor and his hair paid out behind.

Kayla Brantley (13:56)

Right. When we talk about how Cobain was found, I feel like there's so much fascinating evidence there that an independent crime scene reconstruction expert, he reviewed the original evidence and there were observations that really differed from the original conclusions. They've been talking about blood pattern analysis, the clothing evidence, injuries, and, like you mentioned, whether the position of the body was consistent with the initial ruling.

Neil Lowe (14:26)

Yeah.

Kayla Brantley (14:27)

What are all of these questions pointing to? And, I mean, I think it's almost obvious, but can you just talk us a little bit through the photos, as you mentioned?

Neil Lowe (14:38)

Yeah, the photos, most of what you see were taken by patrol officers, not detectives. And they were later developed when we hit the 20 year mark because we were worried the film was going to deteriorate and they didn't release all of them. Again, I'd like to see those. But I do remember the hand. And it's like, where's the blood? That in particular the sleeves rolled down. I don't buy it the way he was.

Kayla Brantley (15:04)

She was dragged, you said. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Neil Lowe (15:07)

Well, yeah, I was reading that in the report. Another expert had also looked at it, and he described the hair as being, like, splayed out. Where. Okay, now imagine if he was sitting up and which we would hypothesize he was. If he did. If he did shoot himself, then he would have fallen back and his hair would have gone plump and maybe out a little to the sides. But if he was laying down, you know, to make. Make it a better reach for the shotgun, that's like, well, how did your hair get up behind you? And then, like I said, the pants look like. I'm trying to demonstrate like they'd been lifted up, like somebody grabbed an ankle maybe. And then you got this here, where it wasn't pulled back down. There could be logical explanations or acceptable explanations. I would like to hear them. You know, who's. Who's got a better explanation for what that analysis looks like to me? I. I do have some guys I respect, and if they could walk me through the crime scene with them or show me the pictures and explain it to me, and that's Usually what happened. I also was a captain of homicide and the detectives would have done the investigation and, and explained it to me. What, you know, thinking out loud, what, what they think happened here and then I would relay it to the chief to you.

Kayla Brantley (16:29)

What is the most compelling reason to re examine the original suicide conclusion?

Neil Lowe (16:38)

Well, it's between the note, which I really don't think he wrote, and it is certainly, I don't think a suicide note and the lack of blood splatter on his hand, the fact that there's 150 milligrams of heroin in his arm, yet a high functioning thing like I can't do buttons very well because my hands are old and so but for him to button his buttons on his sleeve, that requires some coordination. And I also think I'm gonna probably throw this in out of order. I think he was a gentle guy. Why didn't he just go with the heroin? If he shot that much heroin, he's going to go. And I think some of the people that are looking into it now thinks that there may have been signs that he was already dying from the heroin. So why the shotgun blast? And if you don't mind me getting a little literate here. John Steinbeck wrote a book called In Dubious Battle. It was right after Grapes of Rot. And in that there's a union organizer leader that people didn't want and so they killed him and they shot him in the face with a shotgun. And I thought, whoa, I'm reading this in college, professor. Isn't that a little graphic, little gruesome? Why would they do that? They said to erase his identity. Now think about that. I mean, why have a gratuitous. He's got heroin, he's got his clunky Volvo parked in the garage below. He can go down, sit in the Volvo, turn on the ignition, take the heroin. Painless. But to blow off his face, that's somebody who I think didn't want an open casket. They were hoping it would blow his face off. It didn't, but they, I think that was their hope that it would blow up his head.

Kayla Brantley (18:24)

Well, if there was a homicide, are there any theories of a suspect, a motive? What, what are the theories going on out there?

Neil Lowe (18:32)

So called friends of Kurt who shot heroin with him that might have been hanging around and I'm not sure how much went into finding out. Was there anybody else that had a grudge? You know, it's possible, but he stood up these people from Lollapalooza. But other people lost money and they were Tired of playing this game. Those are possibilities. That's not the order. I'd want to interview them. But you usually start out and work your way in, you know, gather as much information as you can. And then when you have a pretty good idea what. What you know happened, then you talk to the main person that you suspect. And I'm just going to say it probably wasn't one individual. And some people may have been following direction. There may have been a couple people that. In the house, in the garage, I think at least two in the upstairs.

Kayla Brantley (19:24)

Okay.

Neil Lowe (19:25)

And Courtney was not in. She was not in Washington at the time. I'm pretty sure.

Kayla Brantley (19:30)

What would need to happen for this case to be formally reopened. And do you even think that that's a realistic possibility?

Neil Lowe (19:37)

Well, let's say I. Actually, I was hoping you'd ask. What would I like to see happen? I want to see this fully investigated. Yeah, I do. But let's start with overturning the suicide definition and verdict from the medical examiner in the police department. Let's get them to reverse that and change it to undetermined. And from there you can do an investigation, let's say. I'm pretty good at predicting these things. Somebody who is involved is going to find Jesus while they're dying and, you know, cancer or something like that, and want to set the record straight. That stuff happens. And you need to have somebody at the police department ready there to follow up on what he or she tells him. They need to have somebody to be able to work that. But it starts with overturning the official finding from suicide to undetermined. And I could live with that. And that would. That would say a huge thing to Kurt's fans, that he didn't kill himself. That. Let's look at the obvious. It looks like somebody, according to the way I look at this, somebody else did it.

Kayla Brantley (20:44)

It's so interesting to me that obviously this was a huge celebrity, huge fan base, huge following, and that it would be such an open and shut suicide and no further real investigation until further. 30 years later. What does it say about Kurt Cobain's legacy that here we are 30 years later, and there's actually, you know, finally some movement in this case.

Neil Lowe (21:07)

Yeah. So now here we are on his birthday, 30 years later, and I'm actually excited to see this, but I think the truth has to be told. You can't just go, oh, that's an inconvenient truth. We don't want to hear that. Well, put on your big boy pants and we're going to hear the real truth.

Kayla Brantley (21:27)

Is there any. Any last words, anything that you think people should know about this case or just anything that you really want people to hone in on, you know, that you just think is so suspicious?

Neil Lowe (21:39)

No, I think just in recap things that bug me, the notes, the one on the stairs, the one in the house, definitely the IHOP placemat story. I do not buy that as a suicide note. The shotgun to the head. My opinion, and it's probably different from some other examiners, is that there should have been a whole lot of blowback. And that's pretty telling to me.

Kayla Brantley (22:03)

All right, well, thank you so much, Neil. Thank you for being here. I'm just so fascinated by all this and I really do feel like more will be coming out soon.

Neil Lowe (22:11)

Well, I'm really glad people are taking a serious look at it. It needs to be. And again, me, I my standards not that high. Just change it to undetermined and then let a good detective go at it and maybe they'll solve it.

Kayla Brantley (22:27)

Yeah. All right, well, thank you so much. Thank you for, for joining me.

Neil Lowe (22:30)

You're welcome.

Narrator/Host (22:34)

That's all for this week. We'll be back next week, bringing you up to date on the week in crime. If you want to stay up to date on the biggest cases unfolding across the country, make sure you're following the trial usa. I'm Kayla Brantley. Thank you for being with us.

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