Rebel Reunion, NCAA President Charlie Baker Joins, and Vanderbilt Goes Hollywood

Summary

The Triple Option – “Rebel Reunion, NCAA President Charlie Baker Joins, and Vanderbilt Goes Hollywood”

Date: May 20, 2026
Host(s): Urban Meyer, Mark Ingram II, Rob Stone
Special Guest: Charlie Baker (NCAA President)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Triple Option dives deep into the ever-shifting world of college football and athletics. With seismic changes from coaching breakups, the arrival of NIL and collectives, and the NCAA’s evolving role, Urban Meyer and Rob Stone are joined by NCAA President Charlie Baker for a far-reaching and candid conversation about the new age of college athletics. Topics range from the upcoming Lane Kiffin “homecoming,” to NCAA legislation efforts, the impact of NIL, enforcement woes, expanded tournaments, gambling, international players, and even a Hollywood twist for Vanderbilt football.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Coaching Carousel & SEC Drama

(00:00–12:00)

• Lane Kiffin Reunites with Ole Miss as LSU Coach:

  • Rob Stone tees up the rivalry: “A new level of animosity brewing down south between two particular SEC institutions, Ole Miss and LSU. Lane Kiffin is coming back to Oxford... That was one of the greatest runs in the history of the school at Ole Miss, and to a rival, LSU.”
  • Urban Meyer shares insight on coaching exits: “If he was a bad coach, they'd say, see you later... There’s breakups all the time. Some are really bad when you’re not good. The problem is there is no contact made until, you know, well, after the season. That’s an easy fix.”
  • Coaches, Athletic Directors (ADs), and school presidents are held unaccountable for improper contact. Meyer calls for new legislation to enforce a 'hands-off' period until after the season.

• Memorable Quote (Urban Meyer, 06:08):
  “All you do is say, you know, I made some recent comments about the ratio profile. You know, I don't know if he should have went there... Just say great things about the school you're at. They gave you a chance when... just all positive. And just go try to win a game.”

• Timestamps:

  • 02:00 – Lane Kiffin’s SEC return drama
  • 04:00 – Urban’s own breakups at Bowling Green and Utah

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2. Coaching & Transfer Portal Chaos

(09:00–13:00)

• Lack of Guardrails:

  • Rob Stone and Urban Meyer both bemoan the absence of regulatory frameworks for coaching moves and the transfer portal, leading to last season’s chaos.
  • Suggestion to synchronize coaching changes and player entries into the portal only after season ends, possibly January 1st.

• Memorable Urban Meyer quote (07:37):
  “I'd make January 1st... Any contact made, your athletic director loses his job—you’re fired. That’s not fair to the players. During a playoff run... that’s all off limits until January 1st.”

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3. NCAA President Charlie Baker Joins: Big-Picture Issues

(13:10–41:38)

a. Meeting at the White House

(13:32–15:48)

• A high-profile gathering of decision-makers put issues like the SCORE Act (proposed Congressional legislation) back on the agenda.
• Charlie Baker: “A room full of pretty influential people... walked out believing there was an opportunity... to get it over the goal line and begin a conversation [with the Senate] about how they might want to approach this.”

b. Antitrust Exemption, Eligibility, and NIL Regulation

(15:48–22:42)

• Meyer asks for clarification on antitrust:
  “Can you... explain what does antitrust [exemption] mean and how the different state statutes are really restricting what the NCAA is trying to do?”
  (15:51)

• Baker (16:27):

  • A limited antitrust exemption would let the NCAA “write a rule that... has the force of something pretty close to law.” This especially matters for transfer and eligibility rules—currently, state laws and court rulings create chaos and lack of uniformity.
  • “We’re not looking for broad antitrust exemption—we’ve basically been talking about two or three things.... Transfer portal is a good one... everybody can transfer every year now... it’s just chaotic and it’s going to ruin the capacity of many student athletes to ever graduate from college.”
  • 40+ state laws around NIL create a patchwork competitive landscape, eroding fairness and predictability.

• No progress possible without government:

  • Baker (20:31): “No, they're the only people who can grant one... It's not something they normally do. The problem is... it can take four or five years through the courts, even if we win.”

c. Enforcement in the Modern NCAA

(22:42–26:28)

• Why is enforcement so weak now?
  • Meyer: “Why can’t the NCAA go back to the old days? If you lie or don't cooperate... you and your athletic director are banished from college sports. Why can't we do that?”
  • Baker: “I think some of it is... cultural and the changing nature of how we think about some of this stuff... Back then... the NCAA had never... lost a case. They were 50 and 0 in cases up until that point—the mid-80s, early-90s.... now people say, 'what the heck, let's take a chance, we may win.'”

d. The Disappearing Olympic Sports

(26:28–28:14)

• Rob Stone brings up the loss of non-revenue sports.
• Baker: “There’s usually a lot of news about programs that get dropped; there’s not a lot about programs that get added… From 2020 to 2026, a lot more sports were added in D1 than were canceled… More kids are playing sports now than when I joined the NCAA.”

e. NIL, Collectives, and Compliance

(28:14–33:00)

• Meyer voices concern about donor “money laundering” and illegal influencing of roster building:
  “Did you ever think... donor giving will have a direct impact on wins and losses... Is there a way to get these collectives the hell out of there and have the university [control NIL]?”

• Baker (29:57):

  • The new NCAA “House” settlement gives the power conferences responsibility over enforcement of NIL and direct revenue sharing via a new “college sports commission.”
  • Hopes for more transparency and direct rev-share with athletes: “The traffic in the football portal this past year was down 20–25%. The reason... was because kids could talk to their schools directly and schools could talk to them.”
  • "A significant number of kids don't land in another NCAA institution, which is a tragedy... I think we can help with that."

f. Rapid-Fire Segment Highlights

(33:00–41:38)

• NCAA Basketball Tournament Expansion to 76 Teams:
  (33:30) Baker: “More opportunities for kids... gives a bunch of schools and conferences an opportunity to make some money.”
• Sports Gambling Abuse:
  (34:54) "The gambling thing generally has become incredibly abusive for kids... the way they get harassed..." (35:34) “I think we should get rid of all prop bets for college sports. At a minimum, get rid of all the negative prop bets because those put tremendous pressure on kids and it really sucks.”
• International Student-Athletes:
  (36:27) “We need to make sure that we have rules in place that deal not just with playing professionally in the US, but playing professionally in other countries.... Many foreign kids are coming here at 21, 22, 23, and saying they’re a freshman. That can’t happen.”
• Charlie Baker, Why Take the Job?
  (37:57) “Part of the reason I took the job is everyone said the NCAA is about to break up into a thousand pieces.... I took it because I think it’s really important, I think it really matters to this country, and I knew they had a lot of problems.”

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4. The Value of College Sports

(39:26–41:00)

• Urban Meyer on the importance of non-revenue/“Olympic” team sports:
  “If non-revenue team sports at any level start to go away, the fabric of the United States of America will be hurt... Every kid should play team sports.”
• Baker on women in sports:
  “Over 90% of women in C-suites in America played sports.... The educational and developmental value of sports is wildly underappreciated.”

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5. Cheers of the Week: Vanderbilt Goes Hollywood

(43:56–47:28)

• Rob Stone spotlights Vanderbilt QB Jared Curtis’s NIL-deal movie debut:
  “A role in a movie might have played a role in getting a five star to Nashville. I say if you got it, flaunt it, use it. And Vandy did it.” (44:48)
• Meyer recalls old NCAA rules:
  “Shelley Meyer written up by the NCAA... because she made cookies for [a player]... now you got guys being promised spots in movies. I think that’s fantastic.” (45:09)
• Both hosts marvel at the evolving NIL landscape—the creative deals, the new recruiting dynamics, and how rapidly things have changed from the era of strict compliance.

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Notable Quotes & Key Moments

• Urban Meyer on the NIL chaos and collectives:
  “That’s not the job of a coach now to fund NIL. In my mind, that’s called marketplace… Is there a way to do that? That seems to me an easy fix.” (28:14)
• Charlie Baker on sports’ value:
  “It is the best human potential development machine we have in this country.” (37:57)
• Charlie Baker on sports harassment:
  “The gambling thing generally has become incredibly abusive for kids... the number one thing student athletes talk to me about... is the way they get harassed.” (34:54)
• Urban Meyer on team sports and America's fabric:
  “If non revenue team sports at any level start to go away, the fabric of United States of America will be hurt.” (39:26)
• Charlie Baker on international athletes:
  “A lot of kids from other countries are coming here at the age of 21 or 22, 23, and saying they’re a freshman. That can't happen.” (37:51)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – Lane Kiffin “Rebel Reunion”
• 13:10 – Charlie Baker joins the show
• 16:27 – Antitrust exemption & NIL legal confusion explained
• 24:21 – NCAA enforcement, waivers, and “risk/reward” debate
• 26:28 – Are college sports programs dying or growing?
• 28:14 – Donor influence, NIL “money laundering,” and collectives
• 33:30 – NCAA Tournament expands to 76 teams: why?
• 34:54 – Gambling on college athletes: abuse and solutions
• 36:27 – The wave of international student-athletes (and potential abuses)
• 37:57 – Why Charlie Baker took the NCAA job (philosophy and mission)
• 39:26 – The existential value of college sports and team sports
• 43:56 – “Cheers of the Week:” Vanderbilt’s recruiting coup with a NIL movie deal

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is candid, accessible, and occasionally humorous—balancing sharp criticism of today’s chaos with nostalgia for “cleaner” old regimes. Charlie Baker is forthright about the NCAA’s limitations and the cultural and legal challenges it faces. Meyer and Stone embed deep respect for the culture and life skills created by college sports, while acknowledging that the landscape is transformed by legal, financial, and media forces.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This installment gives you an inside look at the biggest issues rocking college sports: coaching turmoil, NIL and transfer portal abuse, NCAA regulatory impotence, legal battles, and the lasting value of team athletics. You’ll hear frank, “inside baseball” stories from Urban Meyer’s own career, and a realistic, if at times sober assessment from the NCAA’s current leader. The episode concludes with a fun nod to NIL’s creative potential as Nashville, Hollywood, and football intersect in ways nobody saw coming.

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Follow The Triple Option @3XOptionShow for more content and catch new episodes every Wednesday!

Transcript

[Rob Stone]

We head to north of Boston and bring in the president of the ncaa, Charlie Baker. Why the hell did you take this job?

[Charlie Baker]

That's a really good question. Everybody said the NCAA is about to break up into a thousand pieces. And I'm thinking, my God, you know, if D1 and the power schools separate from D2 and D3, D2 and D3 are going to be in real trouble. So I took it because I think it's really important. I think it really matters to this country, and I knew they had a lot of problems.

[Rob Stone]

The triple is presented by Wendy's. Wendy's invented the spicy chicken sandwich, and now we're reinventing it, making it crispier than ever before. Wendy's Spicy Chicken. We're so back. Welcome to another edition of the Triple option, presented by Wendy's. Rob Stone, the great Urban Meyer here with you. Coming up, we are joined by NCAA president Charlie Baker. That was a fun conversation. Coach, how about this? Is Nashville the new Hollywood, and is there ever a clean breakup? I would say no, according to my recent history. Remember, Rate. Subscribe. Throw us your questions. We are on social media 3X option show. New episodes coming your way on YouTube and wherever it is you find your podcast coach, here we are, 102 days out until we kick off the 2026 football season. It's once it gets to, like, just two numbers, then it's really close. Now it's breathing down our neck. Time now for muscle memory. Click it. Don't risk it. Paid for by nhtsa. It may be second nature to root against a rival, right? Like, if you're a Michigan fan, you know what it's like to root against Ohio State. But there's a new level of animosity brewing down south between two particular SEC institutions, Ole Miss and lsu. They've got a bit of a reunion. And old Lane Kiffin is going to be coming back to Oxford September 19th with his Tigers. Listen, Lane has left a lot of places and a lot of places haven't exactly embraced him when he returned. See Tennessee. See what's going to happen at Ole Miss? I don't know. Does that happen to every coach? Like, did that happen to you, Coach, when you left your Utahs or your Florida's or even your bowling greens?

[Urban Meyer]

It has. But you got to say this about Lane Kiffin is that if he was a bad coach, they'd say, see you later. Yeah, there's breakups all the time. Some are really bad when they you're not good. The second is if you leave. The problem is and I wish they would fix this. And again, I don't believe this is complicated is that there is no contact made until, you know, well, after the season, you know, you can't do that. And again that's, that's an easy fix. But there's a handful of people to me that are not held accountable in all this and that's the athletic directors and presidents of universities. You know, if there's going to be a rule, for example, there's been some stuff going on in college sports in the last couple years that how is the athletic director not involved? You know, that's his job to oversee the athletic department. You see some of these violations or see some of these, you know, whether it's not cooperative or something like that with the ncaa, that to me the ads that that's your job is to do that. So I would, I would somehow in this new legislation, if it gets antitrust exempted, I would certainly make it be part of it that they are hands off until after the season is over. The, the breakups that I had, I left Bowling Green and I went to University Utah. I did not have any conversation with Utah until after the season. And it was. But it didn't happen as much back then because it wasn't, you know, especially, you know, I wasn't certainly the high stakes guy back then. But it was after the season and our season was over and they asked if I'd interview and I did. Then I went to Utah and Jeremy Foley was the head. Was the athletic director at, at Florida. I was at Utah. We finished undefeated season. Our last game. We were waiting for bowl and I got the phone call and he came to see me again with permission of the athletic director. It was done. There was none before the season ended and then that was it.

[Rob Stone]

So Utah and all of your moves made sense. Coach. Like if you were an outsider, you're like, you have an opportunity to go from Bowling Green to Utah fair. Opportunity to go Utah to Florida. Best of luck. It's not these like but parallel.

[Urban Meyer]

Quick story about that. So Utah wasn't Utah then. So people were pissed off. I mean and I thought, you know, we took a team.

[Rob Stone]

What do you mean Utah wasn't Utah though? What do you imply by that?

[Urban Meyer]

They're a 500 team in the Mount West Conference, right? They were not a top. They're not what they are now. Right.

[Rob Stone]

A national.

[Urban Meyer]

But I saw, you know, when I, when I did some research, I'm like, wait a minute now. This could be a monster. So we turn around, I think at the time, the number one turnaround in the history of college football, it was 2 and 9 or 1 and 10. And I think we won 8 and 3 and 9 and 3 the first year. And, you know, UT just, you know, I just felt like, you know, I was attracted to Utah. And I remember I took the job and the student body. I would go eat lunch with the students all the time. I went to every fraternity, every sorority, talk to the, you know, trying to get people in the stadium. And. And so I'm thinking, you know, what the cool thing is, we turned around BG they're in great shape and, you know, we'll be able to come back. And then I'm driving home from emptying out my, you know, put some stuff on my car and I'm driving home and kind of emotional moment because I love those players and I love that place. And I look up, you know, I have all these great feelings about the students. And they. They wrote fu Urban on the, like, sheets hanging down from the dormitory as I'm driving right by. And I.

[Rob Stone]

Damn, they moved on fast.

[Urban Meyer]

They moved on real fast.

[Rob Stone]

Faster than you would think.

[Urban Meyer]

The one about Ole missed lsu, that's. I don't know if that's ever been done before. You know, you're at the team that's. That's one of the greatest run in the history of the school at Ole Miss and to a place that struggled a little bit in lsu. And I mean, a rival. So.

[Rob Stone]

Yeah, now, now a big rival, big time.

[Urban Meyer]

How about this, coach? Ready for that one?

[Rob Stone]

What advice would you give Lane Kiffin as he makes that trip into Oxford?

[Urban Meyer]

Be as respected. All you do is say, you know, I made some recent comments about the ratio profile. You know, I don't know if he should have went there. You know, I don't once you shouldn't have, you know, places and, you know, just. Just say great things about the school you're at. They gave you a chance when, you know, Coach Kiffin had some issues. Now, I mean, for people to take chances on them. Obviously he's a heck of a coach, but, you know, just all positive. Your staff just say all positive and just go try to win a game. I know that probably won't happen.

[Rob Stone]

Put that head down in the tunnel. Just avoid things.

[Urban Meyer]

Get first downs, man and tackle. Just get first downs. Tackle. And by the way, take care of the ball. That's it for sure.

[Rob Stone]

Real quick, you talk about, you know, you're blaming ads, you're blaming school presidents about, know, trying to poach these Coaches. While they're still. While they're still playing. I would argue. I agree with you. I would argue that is their job right now. Right. Because there are no guardrails. So, absolutely, you go and you try to find.

[Urban Meyer]

Oh, yeah. No, no, no. Absolutely. I'm saying if. If there is a rule. But there's been other stuff happen. I'm not blaming about that.

[Rob Stone]

Oh, I know you're not. I. I just want to clarify.

[Urban Meyer]

I'm blaming about other stuff.

[Rob Stone]

Sure.

[Urban Meyer]

Certainly, yes.

[Rob Stone]

So what is the rule that needs to be put. You say till the end of the season. Is that till the end of the. The potential candidate season? Right. Like, so you can't talk to Lane Kiffin at Ole Miss last year until Ole Miss's season is complete.

[Urban Meyer]

That's a great question. I don't know that. I think they have to redo some of the calendar. I know that's.

[Rob Stone]

What would you do?

[Urban Meyer]

I'd make January 1st. You. Any contact made? Your athletic director loses his job, you're fired. If you make contact.

[Rob Stone]

There's still a lot of football after January 1st these days.

[Urban Meyer]

I know that's a tough one.

[Rob Stone]

Maybe push.

[Urban Meyer]

I just. I think that's a fair. That gets you, at least for the majority of teams, it's over January 1st.

[Sean Duffy]

Correct.

[Rob Stone]

Correct. So there's only an elite few programs that are.

[Urban Meyer]

So I would say January 1st is the first contact you can make with an agent because it's all third party. Then contact your agents and all that kind of stuff. But I. I just. That's not fair to the players. During a playoff run, during conference championships, some of these smaller programs, I mean, they were going on historic runs, and all of a sudden, because I know I was getting. You're just getting inundated with, I mean, very serious offers and very serious conversations. That's all off limits until January 1st.

[Rob Stone]

Does getting permission from your athletic director to speak to somebody else is. Is that worthwhile anymore? Does that even carry water? It was. I know, but what about now?

[Urban Meyer]

I don't think so.

[Rob Stone]

I don't think so either.

[Urban Meyer]

Which.

[Rob Stone]

It's almost like a courtesy, right?

[Urban Meyer]

Yeah, of course it was. Right. And I got this phone call. You walk in the ad, I got this phone call. I'm not interested. I got this phone call. I might take a look at this.

[Rob Stone]

Yeah.

[Urban Meyer]

And then the AD is like, oh, let's talk. That's the way. That's my understanding, the way it was done.

[Rob Stone]

And it gives that AD maybe a little bit of a heads up, like, okay, I need to Start planning. But by the way, if you're a really good AD and you've got a great coach, no matter what you're on, you should have a special drawer that has a list of potential top three, top five candidates for whatever the job is, particularly if it's football or basketball.

[Urban Meyer]

And that's one of the things. Everyone has agents. Now, Rob, you understand, back when I first started knowing I had agents, I really never had one until later in my career. That, you know, that was more not. Not offset the relationship with my ad. I had great athletic directors, and we had great. You know, I had four of them, and we were. I mean, like this. Talked about everything, even potential job offers. Yeah.

[Rob Stone]

Fascinating world we live in. I would love to see guardrails for the coaching because it got ugly last year. Right. Like that. To me, what happened at Ole Miss was a black eye on college athletics, not just college football. And this transfer portal, again, I keep saying, like, just wait. Just like the coaching portal. Make the player portal open after the season.

[Urban Meyer]

That'll be easier to done if they. If they reassess the calendar and move it up to week zero, which I agree. Move everything up.

[Charlie Baker]

Yeah.

[Rob Stone]

And that'll start solving more problems. It'll probably create a few more here and there, but I think it's going to solve more than it'll create. Speaking of creating problems and trying to solve problems, boy, Charlie Baker, the president of the ncaa, stepped into a whole lot of stuff when he took the gig. We're going to ask him, why in the world do you want to be the president of the ncaa? He's got some fascinating remarks coming up next on the triple option presented by Wendy's. Back in 1995. Wendy's invented the iconic spicy chicken sandwich, built it from scratch. They perfected the balance of heat and flavor in every bite. So, yeah, Wendy set the standard, but standards don't stand still.

[Urban Meyer]

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[Charlie Baker]

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[Charlie Baker]

Coach.

[Urban Meyer]

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[Rob Stone]

Welcome back to the Triple option, presented by Wendy's Rob Stone, Urban Meyer. What a guest we have for you right now. We head to north of Boston and bring in the president of the ncaa, Charlie Baker, a former student athlete himself at Harvard University. Charlie, we appreciate the time. I know so much is going on in college athletics. We have a ton to get to. I'll let coach bat lead off first. Urban.

[Urban Meyer]

Yeah, I know you're busy, Charlie. Thanks for spending the time with us. Last time we saw each other, we were in the. Not the Oval Office. I can't remember, was it the gold rumor?

[Charlie Baker]

I think it was the. I think it was the Washington Room. Wasn't. Didn't we have George Washington and his wife in paintings in that room?

[Urban Meyer]

So that was in the White House,

[Charlie Baker]

which was pretty amazing. Yeah.

[Urban Meyer]

Yeah. So we had President Trump, we had Rubio, Speaker Johnson, condoleezza Rice, Governor DeSantis and the four commissioners amongst many, many people. We had Cody Campbell from Texas Tech. And I thought. I thought, first of all, I really appreciated everybody being there because they realized that college football has never been better on the field. As a coach, watching the tape and the execution, you're seeing rosters made up of Grown men instead of just college kids. I mean, these guys are, you know, Ohio State, the Wolverines in Indiana, they had, you know, these rosters of seniors and they played, they played great. You know, Fox television is way up in percentage points and they're, you know, it's incredible. But we all realize there's some issues. So after that day together, what, what expectations do you have and what, what are you looking for from Congress to assist?

[Charlie Baker]

Well, I think, I think one of the best things that came out of that was a renewed focus on, on the SCORE act in the House, which is a piece of legislation that's designed to, to deal with some of the stuff that currently ails college sports generally, and a room full of pretty influential people who I think walked out believing that there was an opportunity here to help push this thing forward, maybe get it over the goal line and begin a conversation at the same time with the Senate about how they might want to approach this. And I give the President credit for this because there's a lot going on in Washington. There's a lot going on around the world. And, and I do think by getting that crew together, he got this issue and some of our issues back onto the agenda, which was very helpful.

[Urban Meyer]

So the SCORE act, you know, there's a couple things I'd love to, I, I, I told our group and I've told people because I get asked all the time. I couldn't spell antitrust until about two months ago and realize how. First of all, I've done a lot of homework on this in the meetings we've been in and on my own, is how hard it is to get antitrust exemption and what exactly that means. Maybe for the listener. Can you. I can, but I think people rather hear from you what does antitrust. Why is that important and how the different state statutes are really restricting what the NCAA is, is trying to do.

[Charlie Baker]

So the simplest way I can describe it, and it is really hard to get because it's a really big deal, what it would basically do is in certain areas of rulemaking, give the NCAA the ability to write a rule that for all intents and purposes, has the force of something pretty close to a law, because it basically means that if the NCAA as a group decides that it's going to have a certain rule, challenging that rule in court, for example, would be extremely difficult. And I think the, you know, that we're not looking for broad antitrust exemption. We've basically been talking about two or three things. You know, one is to create rules around eligibility. Anybody who follows college sports knows that we've had eligibility rules in place for a very long time. And when they get challenged in court, which they do on occasion, we win more often than we lose. But it creates an enormous amount of confusion among student athletes, coaches, schools, and everybody else about what exactly the rules around eligibility are. Transfer portal is a good one. The NCAA used to have a rule around how transfers worked, which was basically you could transfer once and play right away. If you transferred a second time, it needed to be because of some exigent circumstance like your coach left or somebody died in your family or something like that. Because the NCAA is very proud of the work that's happened in enhancing student athlete graduations, which basically now happen at a higher rate for student athletes than they do for non student athletes across college. No matter how you split it, divisions, gender, race, doesn't matter. It's a really great story, but every time a kid transfers, they fall behind with respect to their ability to graduate. So we had this rule, and there was a basketball player who wanted to transfer for the third time to West Virginia. He was way behind academically. And when West Virginia sought an opportunity to have this kid play, right away, the NCAA said no. And so the ag, on behalf of the University of West Virginia, took the NCAA to court, was joined by nine other AGs and the Biden Justice Department, and they eventually. And the judge ruled in favor of West Virginia University and the student athlete and the ags and the Justice Department, and basically created what we have now in the transfer space, which is anybody can transfer every year. And. And if you talk to most of the folks who are involved in college sports, including the kids, they'll all tell you that that is just chaotic and it's going to ruin the capacity of many student athletes to ever graduate from college. And I think the. I think there's a lot of remorse about that out there, but nobody can change it because it's, you know, it sits there as a consent decree. And that's the kind of thing that if the NCAA had limited antitrust protection, you could write a rule around transfers that people would have to live with. So it's really more about creating predictability. What also preempts state laws, which, as you point out, coach, we have 40 of them around nil. And they're all designed to make sure that the schools in every state do better than the schools in any other state, which makes it not just a challenge for us, but also a challenge for conferences in terms of sort of a level, competitive playing field. So We're a national organization. We've always been a national organization. It's basically about giving us, in certain limited circumstances, the ability to write rules and. And maintain them for predictability and competitive equity purposes.

[Rob Stone]

Do you think you can get that antitrust exemption without help from the government?

[Charlie Baker]

No, they're the only people who can grant one. And it's one of the reasons why, as the coach said before, it's such a big deal, because it's not something that they normally do. They usually take the position, well, just let the courts sort that stuff out. The problem with doing that in our world is it can take four or five years through the courts even if we win. And we're right to sort out issues that really matter with respect to decisions that student athletes, families and schools and coaches and programs have to make all the time. This eligibility question, for example, we've been in court a lot on eligibility issues. They're usually a single player or sometime a group of players. Players we win more often than we lose. But the process associated with that, I mean, we have cases that were started on the eligibility front in Court in 2026. They probably won't get all the way through the court system until 28 or 29. So it just creates this incredible confusion and also a real sense of unfairness across the system because, you know, somebody looks at some kid who got the. Got the. The additional year, and we appeal it. We went on appeal. They appeal our appeal. It's still going on, but the kid's playing. And then other schools look at that and they say, why are they getting that opportunity and we're not. So the whole issue here is to create what I would describe as one standard that can be enforced and applied to everybody. And that standard is basically made by the membership. I mean, one of the things I say to people all the time is, you know, when I was governor of Massachusetts, I had a lot of authority that came with the job. I had influence, but I also had real authority in this job. I have influence, but at the end of the day, the decisions about the rules get made by the membership, and I think the membership has to live with those rules. So on some level, I think that's a good thing. But. But when people challenge those rules through the courts, you know, you eventually get to an answer, but it takes a really long time.

[Urban Meyer]

So in 1982, I started in 86 as a grad student in Ohio State. And then there was a feel, Charlie, back in the day, that when you committed a violation, it was hell's Fire. It was, it was. I mean, the rule book was that thick. You had meeting after meeting with your compliance people, and it was made perfectly clear. If you did not cooperate and if you lied, you're done. And I, I, I've been saying this for years after witnessing some of the things I've witnessed. Is that the ncaa, without subpoena power, with the reasons you just said, you get litigated immediately as the enforcement army. You know, how do you, how do you feel the NCA as, as far as power? And I've always looked at enforcement as it should be. Enforcement equals risk reward, or enforcement should be greater than risk reward. And that should be because we're all human beings and you're in competitive environment. Why can't the NCAA go back to the old days? And if you, if I was king for the day, if you lie or if you don't cooperate, you and your athletic director are banished from college sports. You're done. You're finished. Why can't we do that? The investigative process would be like this. If I'm a coach and I know we did something wrong and they, I refuse. Like it's happened. There's people refuse to cooperate with you, and they still coached. I didn't understand that.

[Charlie Baker]

I think some of it is, that's a really good question. I think some of it's probably just cultural and the changing nature of how we think about some of this stuff. I think the, and what I would say to you point blank is that we had. Just take eligibility for a minute. We had 1500 waivers for another year of eligibility from D1 student athletes last year, and we granted 2/3 of those waivers, which means that basically 1000 of those kids got another year for one reason or another. They had an injury, family situation, whatever it was. So we had about 500 where the waiver was denied. Of the 500 that denied it, less than 50 ended up in court. So 90% of the people who had a waiver that denied an extra year of eligibility accepted it. So the whole fight comes down to the 10% that chooses to go to court and to fight that. And as I said, we win more often than we lose, but it creates this enormous uncertainty and this sense of unfairness around the membership. And so what I would say to you, Coach, is I think the difference between then and now is more about, you know, a little bit about culture and the world we're in generally. And, you know, there's always been the desire to win. You know that better than anybody. But, you know, Back then, I would bet I could be wrong about this. I would bet that the NCAA had never. 86 would have been right around the time of the Supreme Court decision around who televises college football. Right. That would have been the first time the NCAA lost the case. They were 50 and 0 in cases up until that point in time. And so I think one of the things that's also changed is, what the heck, let's take a chance we may win, which I don't think people were doing. Were doing prior to sort of that mid-80s, early-90s period of time. Just based on the history, programs are

[Rob Stone]

falling by the wayside right now. We hear it almost weekly that a golf team or a track team or a swim and diving team is being disbanded on very short notice. How can we. How can we change that?

[Charlie Baker]

Well, I think the one thing I would tell you is that there's usually a lot of news about the programs that get dropped. There's not a lot of news about the programs that get added. I mean, if you look at, like, if you go from, call it, say, the last time I looked at this Data, call it 20, 2020-2026, okay, there were. I don't remember the exact numbers here. If you want them, I'll get them. But the bottom line here is there were a lot more sports that were added in D1 than were canceled. And I promise you, no one wrote a story about any of the sports that were added. And people wrote a lot of stories about the ones that were canceled. And when I got to the NCAA, we had about 520. That was three years ago. We had 520,000 people playing college sports. Now we have about 556,000. So I think the. I pay a lot of attention to this question, and I care a lot about it, and I know a lot of folks in the membership do, and. And we will continue to do that going forward. But isolated incidents are decisions that schools make for a whole variety of reasons. And in some cases, they may make them because they just say, you know what? We're never going to be competitive in this sport. So we'd rather take the resources we're spending on this sport and put them into another sport where we believe we can be competitive. Meanwhile, somebody else will get into that sport because they think they can be competitive in it. And to me, it's sort of the totality of the system across all three divisions that I pay attention to. And in that case, for the most part, across all three divisions, you got more kids playing sports now than you did when I joined the ncaa.

[Urban Meyer]

So Charlie, my last question, and this has to do with a hot topic of the roster valuations and this number is being thrown about $50 million when the revenue share I believe is 21.3. And this just comes from colleagues. And after that meeting I had about four or five athletic directors I know very well at some really big schools call me and say there's two ways that this is happening. When you're following rules. It's called money laundering. They take money that is set aside or that's, you know, eight I'm throwing out at and t Verizon. They pay the school a certain amount of money and the higher ups redirect part of that money towards a roster member and then the other one is just flat violation of the rules. And did you ever think 10 years ago or even when you first became president that donor givings will have a direct impact on ones and lost? Not, not indirect through facilities and all the stuff that I was used to, but I mean direct involvement on winning games and the discomfort that gives me as a former coach, like wait a minute, is there a way to get these collectives the hell out of there and have the university. I believe in, I believe in collective bar. I, I think that's really good the way that the revenue share. I'm sorry, I think that's really good. But get that other stuff nil. Make it be really nil. Get it out of there. That's not tech, you know, that's not the job of a coach nad to fund nil. That in my mind that's called marketplace. That's called capitalism. Is there a way to do that? Is it? That seems to me an easy fix.

[Charlie Baker]

I think that one kind of comes down to some extent to the, to how the membership wants to handle that issue. I will say this, that when we settled all those lawsuits around nil and created the so called house injunction which made it possible for schools to do revenue sharing directly with their student athletes, part of that was the creation of a college sports commission that is in charge with enforcing all the rules around revenue sharing, roster cap management and third party nil. And that's governed by the four power conferences. And that's where the majority of the authority to get at the question that you're asking resides. And I do think that, and I do think that's a conversation that those folks are having right now. And at some point they're probably going to have to come to some sort of deal for lack of a Better word on how they want to handle that stuff going forward. But that's a good example of where, of where the, you know, we created that construct specifically so that the power conferences were, would be the primary overseers of how those things got decided, because that's where most of the traffic and most of the activity is. And I'm hoping that they'll come up with a plan that they believe can work both from a transparency point of view, as you point out, and from a sort of legitimacy with regard to how the money's being collected, distributed and supporting student athletes. I will say this. I was a big believer in creating a rev share program directly for schools because when I got this job in the spring of 23, the only people who couldn't talk to kids about money were schools, which I thought was crazy. And, and the good news, to the extent there is some on this, is the traffic in the football portal this past year was down 20 to 25%. And I think the reason the traffic was down was because kids could talk to their schools directly and schools could talk to them. That wasn't something they could do in, in the previous years. I also think there's a lot of things we can do now that we got a couple of years worth of activity around this to create a more transparent view into what actually happens to kids to go that go in the portal. I think kids are being badgered all the time. I talk to kids just like you do. They're being badgered all the time about getting in the portal, getting the portal, huge opportunity for you. In many cases there isn't, there's somebody who just wants the kid in the portal so they can try and ship them and sell them somewhere else. And as a result, significant number of kids don't land in another, you know, NCAA institution, which is a tragedy. I think we can do some things to create some data sets that will make it easier for kids, coaches and families to really understand whether or not what somebody's saying to them is true or not when it comes to some of this stuff. Because I think people are in many cases being misled with regard to the stories I've heard from kids about what people have said to them is their opportunity if they go in the portal. And I think we can help with that.

[Rob Stone]

Charlie, we know your time is valuable. We have so many more topics we want to get to, but I, I, we could be here all day with you. So I'm going to propose a little bit more of a rapid fire type segment to the best of your ability that you can answer them in a briefer time, which may or may not be fair. I totally get it.

[Sean Duffy]

Right.

[Charlie Baker]

He's trying to give you the whole

[Rob Stone]

answer are five layers deep. But listen, you're a former governor. You can hit, you can do big boy things. All right? We can handle this. All right. So why was the decision to expand the NCAA basketball tournament to 76 team teams the correct decision?

[Charlie Baker]

More opportunities for kids to play in the tournament doesn't change the calendar for all intensive purposes. Still starts on men's, men start on Tuesday, women start on Wednesday, first round. Still starts on Thursday for the men, Friday for the women. And also gives the teams coming out of that first round some momentum going into the first or out of that opening round. Into the first round of the tournament. Last year, the. The schools that were playing in that first round, 15, 16, 15, 16, 14 seeds, they all. 15, 14, 13 seeds, they all lost their opening round games two years in a row. And the other thing it does is it gives schools that participate in that open round a chance to earn a unit, which is worth about 2 million bucks to the conference programs. And it will also give them a chance to play a second game and earn a second unit. I would like to. I mean, to me, part of it is about creating some ways for some of the mid majors and other programs to access resources that they can invest in their programs. And it. I'm telling you, we're going from 19% participation in the tournament among all D1 basketball programs to 21%. But it. Which is not much, and it's going to give a whole ton of kids an opportunity to play. And it's going to give a bunch of schools and conferences an opportunity to make some money, which I think is good.

[Rob Stone]

Do we have a sports gambling problem in college athletics right now?

[Charlie Baker]

Not. Not on the kids side, but I think the gambling thing generally has become incredibly abusive for kids. You know, we're the only league I know of that actually tracks abuse that's being directed through social media to players, coaches, and officials during our major tournaments. And the stuff that shows up there is brutal. We can get people. We can notify the platforms and get people kicked off the platforms for the rest of the tournament. Some cases we have to notify law enforcement because some of this stuff is so ugly. We have a program with Venmo where if somebody's pinging away at a kid and saying, you owe me money, Venmo will shut down that person's ability to access the kid's account. This is if you pick like the number one thing student athletes talk to me about. It's the way they get harassed, not just by people they've never met, but by people on their own campus who are looking for them to help them, quote, unquote, make money. I think we should get rid of all prop bets for college sports and at a minimum, get rid of all the negative prop bets because those put tremendous pressure on kids and it really sucks.

[Rob Stone]

We've seen an influx of foreign talent coming to American schools, and I've seen it in men's soccer, you see it in men's basketball now more than ever, and certainly tennis and other sports.

[Charlie Baker]

Ice hockey.

[Rob Stone]

Ice hockey, absolutely. So they're. Listen, they're fabulous human beings. They're coming for an education, they're coming to play a sport as well, but they're taking time, they're taking opportunities, they're taking scholarships away from American athletes. Is that a problem right now or is it okay the way it is?

[Charlie Baker]

I think the. I'd say two things about this. One is the demography in the US with respect to the number of kids who are coming out of high school just to begin with has been going like this for about 15 years. So it's not clear to me that it's fundamentally taking slots away from American kids because the number of kids we've had going to college has been going down. But I do think the bigger issue that we are wrestling with and need to wrestle with is the level of experience. The kids from foreign or international playing environments, what kinds of leagues have they been playing in? Right. We have very strict rules around pre enrollment with respect to playing professionally. Right. We need to make sure that we have rules in place that deal not just with playing professionally in the US but playing professionally in other countries, because that does create a disadvantage. And the other thing we need to do is make sure that whatever kind of data we're getting from kids who are coming from other countries, that it's legit and real. And if we move to this age based eligibility standard, which I really hope we do, that basically says you get five years from the time you graduate from high school, and that's that. I think that creates a really significant opportunity for us to do a much better job of managing the front door when it comes to international, because a lot of kids from other countries are coming here at the age of 21 or 22, 23, and saying they're a freshman. That can't happen.

[Urban Meyer]

I agree with that.

[Rob Stone]

Preach. Last question. Why the hell did you take this job?

[Charlie Baker]

That's a really good question. I think about that one a lot. I wasn't going to take this job. I was going to do something else. When I finished being governor, I got asked to interview by a friend of mine. I care a lot about college sports. It meant the world to me. My wife's the best athlete in the family. She was a gymnast at Northwestern. As I said, Our two kids played D3 football. I have friends growing up and my kids have friends who wouldn't have graduated from high school, much less gone to or graduated from college if it wasn't for sports. And as good a parent as I think my wife and I are, the football coach in high school had more to do with our kids getting good grades and behaving than anything we said to them because they wanted to play and the lessons they learned and the growth and the development and the family that it created for them. It is the best human potential development machine we have in this country. And part of the reason I took the job is everybody said the NCA is about to break up into a thousand pieces. And I'm thinking, my God, if D1 and the power schools separate from D2 and D3, D2 and D3 are going to be in real trouble because they need the brand and the resources of the power schools to have championships and to be able to make investments in their programs. And so I took it because I think it's really important. I think it really matters to this country. And I knew they had a lot of problems. I don't really think I appreciate it. First two kind of still the same as I always thought they were. Third one turned out to be more problematic than I thought it was going to be.

[Urban Meyer]

You know. You know, as we close here, your time is so valuable. Appreciate you being here. But I want to reiterate what you just said. My daughter's played college volleyball and I've said this, I said this in front of the president that day. I remember she did it in an interview and it was one of those proudest moments of my life. She said, I learned more in a volleyball court than I ever learned in classroom. And I, I said, you get that, you know, on team sports, if, if non revenue team sports at any level start to go away, the fabric of United States of America will be hurt. I think every kid should play team sports. I, I just, I've seen it, I've witnessed it. You learn about commitment, dedication, you learn about diversity, you learn about all things on a team. And I just I, I'm, I'm, I, I'm supportive of what you guys are trying to do because, and that's why I was really supportive of the president and the his assistants who were there. He made it clear that this is really important for women's sports. It's really important for non rev. This is not about paying people. You know, you got to be careful how you say this, but I, I just think the fabric of America would change in a extremely bad way if we start losing team sports.

[Charlie Baker]

You are so right. And it's not a coincidence or an accident that over 90% of the women in C suites in America play sports.

[Urban Meyer]

Absolutely.

[Charlie Baker]

This is sports is the educational value of sports and the developmental value of sports is wildly underappreciated in many quarters. And it's too bad.

[Rob Stone]

Perfect spot to wrap things up. Charlie Baker, President of ncaa, thank you so much. Continue with that influence. Try to get some more authority and good luck with those commencement speeches. Do you have an opening line?

[Charlie Baker]

Yeah, I do, actually. All right, share it. I start by saying I've been to I graduated from college, I graduated from business school. Somebody spoke at both of those. I don't remember who it was or what they said. So I'm not really expecting you to walk away from here remembering much about me or what I say. We're going to Congratulations to you all.

[Rob Stone]

There you go. We're going to remember this interview for a long time. Charlie Baker, President of the ncaa, thank you so much for joining us. Enjoy your summer. Thank you, Charlie.

[Charlie Baker]

Take care, folks.

[Rob Stone]

That was never cutting corners. Presented by Wendy's. Wendy's new spicy chicken sandwich is crispier, crunchier and more flavor packed than ever. Wendy's. We're so back. Coming up next, we cheers the newest movie star in Nashville. That's when the triple option presented by Wendy's returns. You might think the worst part about not wearing your seatbelt is getting a ticket. The fine, the inconvenience, maybe even the embarrassment of being pulled over. But the truth is, that ticket isn't the real problem. The real cost comes in a crash.

[Urban Meyer]

Without your seatbelt, you're far more likely to be badly hurt or worse. That could mean serious injuries, long hospital stays, months of recovery and missing out on the moments that matter the most. Compared to that, a ticket is nothing.

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[Rob Stone]

welcome back to the Triple Option presented by Wendy's Urban Meyer. Rob Stone back here with you. Time now for Cheers of the week presented by RK0PROOF. RK0PROOF delivers the taste, aroma and even the burn of real spirits without alcohol, sugar or carbs. Coach, this is a fun one and I, I can't imagine you ever thought in your history of coaching and analyzing college football that this is a topic we would be having. But here we go. All right, so we are going to cheer Vanderbilt quarterback Jared Curtis. He's set to make his movie debut before even taking a snap in Nashville for the Commodores. He is appearing in Vanderbilt fan Nate Bargetzi's movie the Breadwinner. It is part of his nil deal. Curtis, a five star recruit, chose Vandy over Georgia.

[Urban Meyer]

Wow.

[Rob Stone]

Over Georgia, right? So Clark Lee, he's got his replacement for Diego Pavia. And here we are where a role in a movie might have played a role in getting a five star to Nashville. I say if you got it, flaunt it, use it. And Vandy, Vandy did it.

[Urban Meyer]

And I give the guy, right, whoever the assistant coach who set that up, I call him and said, hell of a job. Here's a race. I mean that's incredible. You got it, use it. And I think that's incredible. Think about how far. So 2004, Shelley Meyer written up by the NCAA and was reprimanded because she made cookies for Brandon Warfield. That Made Mountain west conference player of the week and now you got guys being promised spots in movies. So this is one that I think. God bless him, I think that's fantastic.

[Rob Stone]

Yeah, I love the creativity and getting outside of the box. And guess what? Fun as hell for the kid, right? Like everybody.

[Urban Meyer]

I'll tell you what, I'm all into Vanderbilt too, man. That coach in the back, you know, because I. I was there when Vanderbilt was. You come walking in that stadium, all your fans, and it's a win and they've had some good coaches. But what they've done there, now they got something you beat Georgia on. Say that slowly.

[Rob Stone]

Yeah, on a five star cube.

[Urban Meyer]

Georgia on a recruit.

[Rob Stone]

You know, it's interesting. Coach too. You like? Indiana sucks all the air out of the room with their remarkable story the last couple years, but if there wasn't Indiana, we'd be talking a lot more about what Vanderbilt and Clarkley is doing in Nashville. Certainly is Nice story. So it got me thinking. Coach, who would play you in a movie?

[Charlie Baker]

Any.

[Rob Stone]

Any thoughts?

[Urban Meyer]

I don't know enough.

[Rob Stone]

Harrison Ford?

[Urban Meyer]

No.

[Rob Stone]

John Hamm?

[Urban Meyer]

Gene Hackman?

[Rob Stone]

Rest in peace, Josh Brolin? Bradley Cooper? Anybody?

[Urban Meyer]

I don't even know those. I don't watch a lot.

[Rob Stone]

You know these guys?

[Urban Meyer]

I'll let you know that, Rob.

[Rob Stone]

All right, all right.

[Urban Meyer]

How about you get paid the big bucks, pal.

[Rob Stone]

Coach, who would play me? Who would play Ro Stone in a movie? I mean, there's the obvious ones, George Clooney and Brad Pit. But anybody else come to mind?

[Urban Meyer]

This is where we need Mark Ingram. He's. He's up on this kind of stuff because he fires stuff right at you.

[Charlie Baker]

Oh, man.

[Rob Stone]

All right, so you know what this says? This says your move, Matthew McConaughey of Texas. Right? When you.

[Urban Meyer]

My guess is he will.

[Rob Stone]

For sure he will.

[Urban Meyer]

My guess he will.

[Rob Stone]

And he's probably a little pod at himself that he does. Has he done it already? Or maybe.

[Urban Meyer]

I can promise you, if I was Sark Sarkeesian, I. I read that. I'm calling Matthew McConaughey right now. Your move.

[Rob Stone]

Welcome to the brand new world of college football that does it for the triple option this week. Follow subscribe rate us on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever it is you find your podcasts as well as across social media at 3X Option Show. As always, thanks to our wonderful sponsors Wendy's, RK0 Proof and NHTSA, we will see you next time on the trail. Triple option.

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