The Next CFB Playoff Format, Michigan's Warde Manuel Joins, plus Who Goes #1 in the NFL Draft?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Triple Option – Episode: The Next CFB Playoff Format, Michigan's Ward Manuel Joins, plus Who Goes #1 in the NFL Draft?

Release Date: March 5, 2025
Hosts: Urban Meyer, Mark Ingram II, Rob Stone
Guest: Ward Manuel, Athletic Director at the University of Michigan and Chairman of the 2024 College Football Playoff Committee

---

1. Introduction

In this episode of The Triple Option, hosts Urban Meyer, Mark Ingram II, and Rob Stone delve deep into the evolving landscape of college football. The primary focus revolves around the recent changes in the College Football Playoff (CFP) format, the potential for expansion, and the fairness of conference representations. Additionally, the episode features an insightful conversation with Ward Manuel, offering expert perspectives on the CFP's current and future states. The episode concludes with a light-hearted segment on NFL Draft predictions.

---

2. Evaluating the 12-Team College Football Playoff

Successes and Challenges

The newly implemented 12-team playoff format has sparked considerable discussion among the hosts. They reflect on its inaugural season, highlighting both its successes and areas needing improvement.

• Urban Meyer praises the overall success but critiques the seeding process:

  "I think it was fantastic... [but] the seeding was not. And I'm sure that's going to be changed."
  (04:35)

• Mark Ingram echoes Urban's sentiments, emphasizing the enjoyment derived from the expanded playoff:

  "I think the expansion was extremely successful and I think it was something that everyone enjoyed."
  (05:45)

However, concerns arise regarding the dominance of certain conferences in the playoff selections, potentially sidelining deserving teams from other conferences.

Seeding Issues and Conference Dominance

• Rob Stone points out the disproportionate representation of the Big Ten and SEC:

  "It slightly devalues winning your conference championship... pushing the Ohio States back."
  (06:15)

• Urban Meyer reiterates the influence of major conferences:

  "College football now is synonymous with money... I can imagine the commissioner, Sankey and Petiti at the Big Ten just said, we're going to take the ball and go play."
  (18:13)

The hosts discuss how the current format may inadvertently favor teams from powerhouse conferences, raising questions about fairness and the true merit of selections.

---

3. Proposals for a 14-Team Playoff Format

The 442211 Model

As the conversation progresses, the hosts introduce a proposed 14-team playoff structure, affectionately dubbed the "442211" model. This format aims to balance representation while expanding the playoff field.

• Rob Stone describes the model:

  "44, 22, 11 sounds like a great play... four automatic bids to the Big Ten and the SEC, two automatic bids to the Big 12 and the ACC, one to the highest ranking, you know, Group of Six program and then one out there if Notre Dame should finish high enough..."
  (16:36)

• Mark Ingram supports the proposal, citing conference expansions:

  "With the expansion of the Big Ten and SEC... I think the 442211 is a great kind of method, a great kind of outlook on this playoff."
  (25:25)

Addressing Potential Pushback

While the model receives support from Meyer and Ingram, Rob Stone anticipates resistance from smaller conferences:

"There's going to be pushback... from the Big 12, Mountain West... too much power in too small."
(19:26)

The hosts acknowledge the challenges in implementing such a format but remain optimistic about its potential to create a more inclusive and fair playoff system.

---

4. Interview with Ward Manuel: Insights into the CFP

Evaluating the First 12-Team Playoff Season

Ward Manuel shares his perspective on the initial season of the 12-team CFP, emphasizing the increased engagement and the committee's adherence to a consistent selection process.

• Ward Manuel highlights committee resilience:

  "I'm very proud of the way that we went about doing our business to rank the teams... you could talk about upsets, but there was a lot of engagement towards the end of the year."
  (40:04)

Challenges in Ranking and Scheduling

He discusses the complexities involved in evaluating teams with varying schedules and strengths, acknowledging the difficulty in maintaining objectivity.

• Ward Manuel explains:

  "It's hard because of the increase in the number of teams in these conferences... it's still challenging to evaluate teams fairly."
  (45:29)

Proposed Adjustments to Seeding

Manuel advocates for seeding adjustments to ensure that rankings reflect the true performance of teams without being skewed by automatic bids from dominant conferences.

• Ward Manuel suggests:

  "Add the five conference champions and leave them ranked where they are unless they're outside... set the playoff from there."
  (48:08)

Handling Heated Discussions

He also sheds light on the intense debates within the committee, emphasizing the professionalism and dedication of its members.

• Ward Manuel states:

  "Yes, it can get heated... every one of the 13 committee members care deeply about wanting to get it right."
  (53:03)

---

5. The Michigan vs. Ohio State Rivalry in the CFP Era

Tactical Breakdown of the 2022 Game

The hosts and Manuel analyze the recent Michigan vs. Ohio State game, focusing on defensive strategies and key moments that influenced the outcome.

• Urban Meyer compares Michigan's defense to professional standards:

  "They forced Ohio State... similar to Vic Fangio against the Chiefs."
  (38:29)

• Ward Manuel attributes the win to strategic defensive plays:

  "We were able to run the ball and stop the run, keeping their powerful offense off the field."
  (34:10)

Enduring Importance of Rivalry

Despite playoff expansions, the rivalry remains a cornerstone of college football, symbolizing the enduring competitive spirit between the two institutions.

• Ward Manuel emphasizes:

  "It's the greatest rivalry in college sports... it elevates it to another level."
  (60:27)

---

6. NFL Draft Predictions: Who Goes #1?

Debate Over Combine Performance vs. On-Field Skills

In a lighter segment, the hosts discuss the importance of NFL Combine metrics versus actual football performance. Mark Ingram humorously defends his combine results while emphasizing his on-field prowess.

• Mark Ingram jokes about his combine performance:

  "I did great in the meeting room when they handed me the ball... not to play football really well, that wasn't me."
  (63:49)

• Urban Meyer underscores the significance of a quarterback's fit:

  "If you take a quarterback, there has to be 0.00 doubt that that guy... it's not like a corner or linebacker."
  (69:01)

Number One Overall Pick Predictions

The hosts engage in a playful debate over potential number one picks for an expansion NFL team, ultimately agreeing unanimously on Travis Hunter due to his versatile skill set.

• Urban Meyer selects Travis Hunter:

  "I'm taking Travis Hunter, I just think he's... the elite human being on and off the field."
  (73:11)

• Mark Ingram adds his own preference:

  "I'm going with a playmaker at the wide receiver and cornerback position, Travis Hunter."
  (73:24)

• Rob Stone concurs, highlighting Hunter's dual-threat capabilities:

  "I'll take Travis Hunter for the sweep... He is an elite human being on and off the field."
  (74:33)

---

7. Conclusion

The Triple Option wraps up the episode by reaffirming the hosts' commitment to providing in-depth analysis and engaging discussions on the pressing issues in college football. They encourage listeners to follow the podcast on various platforms and stay tuned for future episodes that continue to explore the intricacies of the sport.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Urban Meyer:

  "College football now is synonymous with money... I can promise you that there will be four FCC teams in the playoff."
  (18:13)

• Ward Manuel:

  "We are there 7, 11 to 12 hours, we're sitting in a room arguing over the top 25... people really care deeply about wanting to get it right."
  (53:03)

• Mark Ingram:

  "These young athletes are getting paid and deservedly so. But now you talk about it's a business. It truly is a business..."
  (10:20)

---

Follow The Triple Option:

• YouTube
• Apple Podcasts
• Spotify
• Social Media: @3XOptionShow on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, and Facebook

Sponsors: Presented by Wendy’s and BetMGM

---

This detailed summary encapsulates the crucial discussions and insights from the episode, providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of the topics covered without needing to listen to the full podcast.

Transcript

[Mark Ingram]

I did great in the meeting room when they handed me the ball. Had me going over the bags and changing directions. Football stuff I did. Now, if you wanted someone to look.

[Rob Stone]

Good in underwear, that's where you come to me and coach.

[Urban Meyer]

Love to coach.

[Mark Ingram]

And run fast and jump high and not play football really well. That wasn't me.

[Rob Stone]

He hasn't heard the music in a while. He's got a little extra pump, a little extra kick to it. Back from safari, everybody. Welcome to the triple option, and welcome back. Mark Ingram, baby. How was it?

[Mark Ingram]

It was fantastic, man. Just had South Africa was amazing. Was able to explore Cape Town. We did the Winelands, we did the safari. Went to Johannesburg, to the safari. Then we laid low and went to the Seychelles. After that, got the little island living. So me and the wife, two weeks, the parents held it down. They held the fort down with all the kids, Right?

[Urban Meyer]

So I thought we were going to see, like, a lion's head or a elephant head. Behind you.

[Rob Stone]

Behind him. Right.

[Mark Ingram]

I am a hunter, man. I do like to hunt. But those animals there, you know, they're prestigious. They're.

[Urban Meyer]

They're.

[Mark Ingram]

Man, they're gorgeous. They're beautiful. You see the leopard, you see the cheetah, you're like, dang, it might look good on some fur. But no, no, we gonna let him live. We gonna let him live.

[Rob Stone]

Mark, do you see Mark? Did you see any cheetahs hanging out in trees? That's the. That's the left. Freaks me out. The leopards, whatever.

[Mark Ingram]

Yeah, the leopard will be up in the trees. I didn't see him in the tree. We. So we saw the big. So, you know, they got. So they got the big five animals. You know what the big five are, coach?

[Urban Meyer]

Yeah, I've seen them.

[Mark Ingram]

Okay, so you know the big five.

[Urban Meyer]

Let's go through it again. Elephant, rhino, water buffalo, tiger, lion.

[Mark Ingram]

Tiger isn't in Africa.

[Rob Stone]

No, lion.

[Mark Ingram]

There's three.

[Rob Stone]

What I say? I said hippo. I said rhino's not Rhino. Hippos.

[Mark Ingram]

No. Giraffe's not one.

[Urban Meyer]

Jeez.

[Rob Stone]

How about you just correct us?

[Ward Manuel]

All right.

[Mark Ingram]

Elephant.

[Urban Meyer]

All right.

[Mark Ingram]

Lion.

[Urban Meyer]

Yep.

[Mark Ingram]

Leopard.

[Urban Meyer]

Yeah. Oh, really?

[Mark Ingram]

Water buffalo. The buffalo?

[Rob Stone]

Yeah.

[Mark Ingram]

And then the rhino.

[Urban Meyer]

Wow.

[Mark Ingram]

So we saw four out of five on the first drive the first night. And then we. We were like, we need to find the leopard. We didn't find a leopard at all until the last drive, the last morning.

[Urban Meyer]

Do you see a kill?

[Mark Ingram]

No, we didn't see any kills, man.

[Urban Meyer]

Did you see a migration?

[Mark Ingram]

We. We saw about 200 buffaloes crossing those Street, I guess, I guess that's, that counts.

[Urban Meyer]

They say there's times there's a hundred thousand animals going on a migration across.

[Mark Ingram]

Yeah, yeah. So that great migration, that's like in Tanzania, I think, but we're in, you know, Johannesburg, three hours away from Johannesburg. But it was a tremendous trip, man. Highly recommended. Me and my wife had a great time. We were with friends. Oh, that, that, that is basically like family. And we had a great trip, man. And I shout out to my parents, man, they held down the fort with the five kids. We came back, everything in the house was still intact. No broken bones.

[Rob Stone]

Everybody didn't throw any parties, no grandparent parties.

[Urban Meyer]

Those five kids, those five are normal now.

[Mark Ingram]

You know, they can party, they can get a party because they held down the fort for us for two weeks. So I got an all inclusive expenses paid party for them if they want it.

[Rob Stone]

Heck yeah. All right, so Safari talk is done. Welcome to the triple option presented by Wendy's. Go to Wendy's and taste the difference in a hamburger. As always, thanks for joining us. Thanks for listening, watching wherever you are, working out, taking a walk, driving to work, whatever it is, we appreciate you. You can find us on Apple podcast, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast. We are on social media 3x option show new episodes every Wednesday. All right, so this week we're done with the safari safari survivor talk, right? No more safari talk for now at least. So we got Mark back, which is a bonus. We're going to talk about the NFL combine. We are going to ask these guys who they would take with their number one overall pick. Plus what a great guest we have this week. Ward Manuel, the Michigan athletic Director, also the 2024 College Football Playoff committee chairman is going to join us in the B block. So let's start with the wildly successful first ever 12 team playoffs. Remember a week ago, executives, they got together to discuss changes or potential changes come 2025. Also, a proposal from the Big Ten in the SEC to alter playoff seeding and buys. All right, so I think let's just start looking back to last season. Coach, I'll start with you. I think we all realize it was wildly successful. We're all in favor of it. I think most of us are in favor of expansion. What were the issues for you with the first year of the 12 team college football playoffs?

[Urban Meyer]

Real quick. As a former coach, I think it was fantastic. I wish it was there when we were, Mark and I were involved in the game. I mean our, our 2015 Buckeye team, you know, if we would have got in that darn thing. So. So number one, a great success. Obviously the seeding is that, you know, I don't want to belabor it, but you know, when you start seeing Boise in Arizona State ahead of some, you know, that great year, great season, but they did not earn that by ahead of Ohio State. Yeah, I don't see that that's going to. I've already heard that's going to. That's not going to happen again. Yeah, I'm really intrigued. This is the entire. When you say the word college football, you don't say academics anymore, you don't say university, you don't say rivalries, you don't say networking after you're done. Those are all topics of old. The new topic is money, money, money. And I think there's going to be some. I've heard, you know, the SEC and the Big Ten carry the big stick, which I know will hit soon. But that, that's going to be the topic, you know, God bless the playoff and everything was great about it. The seating was not. And I'm sure that's going to be changed.

[Mark Ingram]

Yeah, I mean not to beat a dead horse, but I think the main thing, I think it was great for college football, the expansion. I mean we got to see Boise, we got to see Notre Dame, we got to see Arizona State, we got to see smu. So I think the expansion was extremely successful and I think it was something that everyone enjoyed. But the seating, you know, the seating has to be fixed. And I think that's the main thing is I don't want to be dead horse. You mentioned it already, coach. So the seating definitely has to be. That will be addressed.

[Rob Stone]

It feels obvious. It feels like an easy fix as well just to reflect back. Four Big Ten programs made the 12 team playoffs. Three from the SEC, two from the ACC. Again, the Big beef, Arizona State and Boise State as a conference champion getting one of those buys. And again, what bugs me as a college football fan is it does slightly devalue winning your conference championship. And I think that was the original intention is to reward these programs, these four conference champions and, and give them a buy. And there's validity to that. But when the differential is so great where a Boise State and Arizona State is sitting there technically in your top four. Yes, it pushes the Ohio States back, but it also changes the outlook for your Georgia's and your organs who all of a sudden in their first games after by are seeing the Ohio State right of the world.

[Urban Meyer]

Right.

[Rob Stone]

That, that's the part that didn't feel great. But guess what? It's a college football playoff. You have your way through the playoffs to be the national champion. You're going to find a heavy hitter eventually. But I think if you're the Georgias, if you're the Oregons, you're saying that's fine, but maybe push it back to the final Four. One other thing that was kind of missing, Coach, was the Pop Tarts bowl experience, if you will. Right the Chees bowl. Right the cheese. There's no crazy mascots, there's no fun, there's no laughing, there's no side visits. It is business and we get it because this is a big business. And there may be no bigger business in college football than the college football playoffs, but a little bit of college football is certainly lost with this pivot towards all focus on the playoffs.

[Urban Meyer]

Yeah, I want to hit Mark with that in a minute, but that was a great experience. My first bowl game as a head coach as Liberty bowling was phenomenal, phenomenal for our players, families. I mean, it was an experience in Memphis, Tennessee. And that you got to remember though that's still there to a degree at the smaller bowls. But you really felt when you went to an Orange, a Rose, a Sugar, a Fiesta, when your team went there, I mean, you're talking about ridiculous hospitality. Great experience, not so much for a coach because we're working all the damn time. But I know the players and families, we tried to make that as positive as you could. And, and I talked to a couple of the coaches and they said it's just pure business. It's a, it's no different, obviously, the intensity and preparation. But you're flying in a couple days for the game and you're playing a game and you go back home and prepare for the next one. So it is business. And you know, I'm curious about Mark, because once again, coaches remember coaches on the bowl experiences. You know, my whole experience was you're up at 6, your family goes to some event, you're watching practice, you're making the tip sheets, you come home and your wife and kids play. We had a great time. I was like, wonderful, right?

[Mark Ingram]

Wonderful.

[Rob Stone]

Yeah, we're glad you had a good time.

[Urban Meyer]

Seven on seven script and inside run for the next day. So. So, Mark, what's your thoughts on the bowl experience?

[Mark Ingram]

Coach, the bowl experience was amazing. I mean, you said it. When you go to a Rose bowl, you're playing a national championship or you go into one of those January day bowl games, like those experiences are great. The gifts you get the, the events that you go to. It's like, you know, it's Alabama versus Michigan State. You guys do a little competition like Guitar Hero and stuff. The families are all there. It's kind of fun. But at the end of the day, this is a new landscape for college football. It is all business. These players are getting paid now. So why are we worried about the bowl experience? Because it is business. You were paying you money to perform at a high level. And listen to this coach. When you go to the playoffs. Under the playoffs current performance based distribution model, each team earns $4 million for qualifying in the CFP. So we're paying you and we need you to get to this college football playoff. And then you get another 4 million for playing in the, in the quarterfinals and another 6 million for advancing to the semifinals and 6 million more for competing in the title game. So this is throwing through a business. We're paying our players. So you don't get a bowl experience. You don't get free gifts because I'm paying you. You can go buy your own gifts.

[Urban Meyer]

So I got a great story. So, so I, I just learned this in my evolution as a coach. So, you know, when you get the bull bid, that's right around finals time. And I mean, you go to a big bowl game, your gifts are ridiculous. Some great gifts for the players and coaches. And so I finally figured it out that I would have someone parade in and whether it be a leather jacket, whether it be, you know, a tv, whether it be a chair, you know, they. There's some cool gifts, custom headphones. Yeah. Had great headphones. And I'd have Mark and Rob, I'd have the player, like one of the players or someone walk around with it and the players start clapping. I said, now here's a cool thing. You 17 guys that are under 2.0 right now, you don't get one. You're not getting one now. So I, if you want that look right there, study really hard for finals. And then I would pull out the rings because when you win a championship, you know, Big ten or sec, get a ring. And I'd bring out the ring and say, once again, you four guys, you're not getting it.

[Mark Ingram]

Yeah.

[Rob Stone]

So that was a great coach. Tangle that carrot.

[Urban Meyer]

But at first, you know, first start, everybody gets it. And I said, wait a minute, I need a little extra motivation here. So I call the families and say, oh, by the way, the old boy's not getting that leather coat.

[Mark Ingram]

Yeah.

[Urban Meyer]

Oh, help me encourage, help me encourage your son to get that C plus or B in psychology or whatever. Yeah, that was awesome.

[Mark Ingram]

No, but I love the bowl experience, man. But these coach, these, these, these young athletes are getting paid and deservedly so. But now you talk about it's a business. It truly is a business because these universities are getting big, big money. You talk about 10, you talk about 10 what, 10, 14, probably, possibly 20 million you could earn. You, you play from the first round to the, to the championship. 20 million. So this is a business through and through. And so the bowl experience is no longer there. If you're in the College Football Playoff because you are getting paid, you could buy your families a ticket to go to the game. You don't got to get the, you.

[Urban Meyer]

Can buy that leather coat. You can buy that leather coat.

[Mark Ingram]

You could buy the headphones, you could buy the gifts. And that's what it is now. It's a business through and through. But the bowl experience was definitely special. I'm glad I got to enjoy it.

[Rob Stone]

So the 2020.

[Mark Ingram]

I'd much rather get paid though, I think.

[Rob Stone]

Star yes, exactly. Don't get that money.

[Mark Ingram]

I'd much rather get that. That money. More rewards, more savings with American Express Business Gold. Earn up to $395 back in annual statement credits on eligible purchases at select.

[Ward Manuel]

Shipping, food delivery and retail subscription merchants.

[Rob Stone]

Enjoy the benefits of membership with the AME Gold Card. Terms apply.

[Mark Ingram]

Learn more at american express.com business-gold AMEX.

[Rob Stone]

Business Gold Card built for business by American Express. Enjoy all your favorite sports like never before. At BetMGM, add a parlay wager minimum odds of plus 400 to your bet. Slip bet up to the specified max stake and activate your token. If you win and your bet with the token applied, you'll score extra winnings on your wager. And with BETMGM at your fingertips, every play and every game matter more than ever. Place your Moneyline prop and parlay bets at the Sportsbook. Born in Vegas today. See betmgm.com for terms 21 + only US promotional offers not available in Mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler call 877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. Call 1-800-next step in Arizona, 1-800 through 275050 in Massachusetts, 1-800-bets off in Iowa. Subject to eligibility requirements. Rewards are non withdrawable bonus bets that expire in seven days in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel.

[Ward Manuel]

Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking all state first. Like you know to check The Jumbotron first before attempting to eat a stack of Supreme Nachos in one bite. Now you're just a meme that everyone shares on game day. Checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Savings vary, subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois.

[Rob Stone]

So the 2025 format, it's going to stay right there at a dozen teams. There could be some minor changes. New contract begins in 2026. There was a memorandum agreed to last spring which basically gives the SEC and Big Ten sole discretion on the future of the college football format that starts in 2026. So if you thought the SEC and Big Ten already had big muscles, guess what? They are banging away at the gym and they are ready to flex those muscles in the college football playoffs. One of the proposals going forward at the Big Ten and the SEC are said to be pushing is a 14 team playoff. I think we're all in favor of some form expansion whether it's 14 or 16. So conversation out there. The Big Ten, the SEC would like a 14 team playoff. The format would be, and remember these numbers, 442211. There'll be a quiz on it. 44, 22, 11 sounds like a great play. The fours, four automatic bids to the Big Ten and the SEC. Two automatic bids to the Big 12 and the ACC, one to the highest ranking, you know, Group of Six program and then one out there if Notre Dame should finish high enough in the rankings, meaning Notre Dame is somewhere inside that top 14. Or maybe the numbers get pushed around a little bit as well. So that is our fresh moves of the week brought to you by Wendy's. Go to Wendy's and taste the difference in a hamburger. So the agreement grants the leagues decision making powers over the format, but directs them to have quote, meaningful consultation and to collect, quote, input from the other conferences before making their decisions. So you look, let's, let's just talk 442211. Does that make sense to you, Mark Ingram, right now, looking at it from the eyes of the Big Ten, of the SEC and then maybe through the eyes of everybody else, it makes, it.

[Mark Ingram]

Makes a lot of sense to me especially with the expansion of the Big Ten and the expansion of the sec. I think that is very justifiable. And you talk about the four. You had four from the Big Ten already this year. You talk about three. You had three from the SEC and people were advocating for four or five, maybe even six teams from the SEC that could have possibly been in it between Alabama, Ole Miss and South Carolina. So the four or four is justifiable. You get two from the acc, which you got this year. I didn't think they were supposed to get two in, but they did. They got two in. Then you had one from the Big 12 and I think they deserve two. If you talk about a 14 team expansion and then you get one from the one from the highest ranked group of six and then you got one at large bid which is designed to go to Notre Dame, but it could be a 5th sec, it could be a 5th big 10, it could be a 3rd acc or a 3rd big big 12. So that last at large bid which is designed for Notre Dame, if they handle their business. But I, I like the format. There's a 14 team playoff in the NFL. Why not go to the 14 team playoff for the, for the college. I think you have a 2018 playoff in the division too, which is an exciting playoff too. So I'm all for the expansion. I think the 442211 is a great kind of, you know, method, a great kind of, you know, outlook on this playoff and we'll see how it goes. But I think that's fair. And I think especially with the expansion of the Big Ten in the sec, when you add in Oregon, you're adding Washington, you're adding Texas, you're adding Oklahoma. I think those expansions justify four teams for the SEC and the Big Ten.

[Urban Meyer]

I agree, Mark. And I made a phone call when I saw this and it is going to happen. That's not, this is not maybe remember in the fall that you had the commissioner, the SEC and the commissioner of the Big Ten get together. Those are the big dogs and it's really unchallengeable. So. And what drives the big dogs? Remember, college football now is synonymous with money. It's, it is money. And when you just start throwing, you get 4 million to qualify for, for the semifinal in the quarter. I'm sorry, 6 million for the semi. That the first of all the seating. I would not be surprised somehow if they adjust it this year. But for sure, I can imagine the commissioner, Sankey and Petiti at the Big Ten just said, you know what, we're going to, we're going to make some decisions here. And, and I'm, I know this is pretty bold, but they're probably, it's not really conversation. It's. We're going to demand. Yeah, we are going to do this we take the ball and go play. Remember now, SEC is espn. They're the relationships there and they, you know, they basically own the playoffs. So I can promise you that there will be four FCC teams in the playoff.

[Rob Stone]

Yeah, Coach, I can promise you there's going to be some pushback, too. And deservedly so from pushback. Those in the Big 12, those in the Mountain West, I mean, we're talking two conferences that are holding all the power and I think that's too much power in too small.

[Mark Ingram]

You're lucky. We're giving you two bids. All right.

[Rob Stone]

We're talking. Okay, that's all right. This is good because I want to hear you, Mark, because I'm ready to come back at you. I'm ready. I'm for the little guy right here. And I want to see all of college football be welcome, not just the sec. Big Ten Invitational.

[Mark Ingram]

And they are welcome.

[Rob Stone]

Decide to bring them in. We're getting to the same extent. Not to the same extent. We're talking. There are numbers to back.

[Mark Ingram]

Are the conferences of equal value, though? The ACC was a trash conference this.

[Rob Stone]

Year, right now they might not be of equal value, but who's to say that's not going to change in a year? Listen, you go down to the Big 12, Mark Ingram, I'm going to tell you right now, there is a lot of oil and gas money out there and there are some big time head honchos. You can go down to Lubbock, you can go down to Fort Worth, you can go to smu, right?

[Urban Meyer]

Talk to me, Stone.

[Rob Stone]

I'm talking right now. And you get a couple of those billionaire alums for smu, for, for tcu, for Texas Tech. And they say, you know what, God dang it, I want to get my team to the college football playoffs and I want to win it. And we saw how much money Ohio State raised and they got themselves a national title. You're going to tell me there's not some bigwigs down there in Texas who are going to say, let's go. I love my program. Come on, Red Raiders. Come on, Horn Frogs. Come on, Mustangs. We are going to shell out the shekels and that is going to throw off the balance of college football. It can happen now. It can happen long.

[Mark Ingram]

You get two bids to do so.

[Rob Stone]

That's the problem, though, because they might eat up those two bids. And now you're going to look and say they need three, they need four bits.

[Mark Ingram]

I understand Notre Dame beat them and then get the at large.

[Rob Stone]

Oh, so we're Going to talk schedule right now. Right? Because all we've been talking about is teams not scheduling hard team.

[Mark Ingram]

You want to at large beat Notre Dame. The at large bid is supposed to go to them. That's the only reason for at large bid. So Notre Dame and then go.

[Rob Stone]

All right, so I love this because this is what's going to be happening in some random hotel.

[Urban Meyer]

All you have to do, really. Conversation stops when you see the television contract from the SEC versus the ACC and Big 12 and the Mountain west, etc. You got two teams that dominate the. The Conversation Pro 2 conferences. And it's, it's. I, I get it. I. For the pure purity of the game. I agree with you for the reality. You're. You're whistling Dixie, pal.

[Rob Stone]

All right. I like. Hey listen, I like my Dixie.

[Urban Meyer]

You got two conferences.

[Mark Ingram]

Sometimes there was not four teams in SEC or Big Ten that I would want to see sometimes. Correct? Yes. Sometimes there hasn't been four teams in either conference that I had that I would have want to see Preach. But with the expansion, now you have Oregon there, you have Washington there, you have Texas, now you have Oklahoma and sec. I feel like the four teams are justifiable because there's probably going to be three or four teams and then the fourth team in those conferences has a great argument over the second team in the ACC or the Big 12 previously, most times, you know what I mean? Not saying that the Big 12 in ACC can't elevate their level to play, that they can't raise the right money and get the right teams and the right players there because they can. Because guys are going to these schools to play for money. But I'm saying four for Big Ten, four for sec. These are the power. They make the thing and justifiable. You got to make them happy. You got to remember the Lane Kiffin.

[Urban Meyer]

Remember Lane Kiffin sending text messages out, et cetera, about what SEC teams belonged. And then the SEC kind of did not do well, you know, in the playoffs.

[Mark Ingram]

It did bad.

[Urban Meyer]

It did not do well in the playoffs. And so, so right or wrong, we keep going. It's going to happen.

[Mark Ingram]

Or they're just going to put or they're just going to break off into a power, a power conference and do Big Ten versus SEC playoff.

[Rob Stone]

I don't think that's good for college football.

[Mark Ingram]

It's not.

[Rob Stone]

I'm with you. I'm with you. This is fascinating and I think there is a solution here. So again, I'm going to. I'm going to. I'm going to moderate. Chime in for the, quote, unquote, little guys out there, which is BS to call the ACC and the Big 12 little guys. But ACC commissioner Jim Phillips saying that the ACC has not cemented a position on a format. But, quote, there needs to be fairness. Agreed. And access to the championship. It needs to be a true championship, not artificial and not an invitational. Agreed. Big 12 commissioner, and we're a big fan of Brett, your mark says his conference has been exploring, quote, predictive analysis and quote, I'll be armed with data. You bet he is. Because he's fighting for his conference. Here's some. Here's a fascinating number breakdown. This is a great article over on Yahoo. Sports. They go back to the 2014 playoff, right. And if you look at the top 14 teams just before conference championship weekend, okay. So starting the 2014s, the SEC has averaged about 4.7 teams per year inside that top 14. Which certainly validates their point of saying we deserve four automatic births. Correct. Same time, the Big Ten, they've averaged 4.6. You could even make a conversation here that the SEC and the Big Ten are hurting themselves. Right. You're taking those averages from.

[Mark Ingram]

There's almost five teams.

[Rob Stone]

Correct. The Big 12. Since the 2014, just before conference championship, they have averaged 2.1 teams inside the top 14 right behind them, the ACC, 1.8. Notre Dame, 0.45. The group of 5.27. So if you're the SEC in the Big Ten and you're doing that number crunch and you're going to show your Data to Big 12 Commissioner Brett, your mark, you're going to say, here's the numbers. And they match. They match what we're pitching, right, Coach?

[Urban Meyer]

Yeah. And then it's the numbers. I don't know what you're looking at, but Oklahoma, Texas were probably the Big 12 teams. And then you had Oregon.

[Rob Stone]

So they pivoted with those in. In, in mind, right?

[Urban Meyer]

They did, yeah.

[Rob Stone]

Yeah.

[Urban Meyer]

Okay.

[Rob Stone]

So, yeah.

[Urban Meyer]

So I think it's. It's.

[Mark Ingram]

I think the numbers are fair.

[Urban Meyer]

It's done. It's done.

[Mark Ingram]

The numbers are fair. To me. You don't get three teams in.

[Rob Stone]

So the numbers are big.

[Mark Ingram]

BYU was going to get in as the third team out of the. You know what I mean? Or.

[Rob Stone]

I know I'm a romantic. I'm a romantic. And I like the little guy. And I like the little guy, too. But that's what bugs me.

[Mark Ingram]

Every conference isn't created equal at the same time.

[Rob Stone]

Correct. Correct. Correct. So there's going to Be. There's going to be years where the balance is going to be off and it may not be the heavy hitters of the Big Ten in the SEC in charge. So to that point, I think there needs to be built in a little flexibility. Right. There needs to be the accordion. Right.

[Mark Ingram]

So give me your proposal.

[Rob Stone]

So my proposal instead of. And again, if you're the Big Ten in the sec, you have the power. Right. And the art of dealmaking, if you will. Right. Is go big, go bold. But know that if you don't get your quote unquote, four and four, you're going to be okay with three and three. So just hear me out. If it goes three, three, two, two, one, one plus two, right. So the Big Ten and the SEC, they get their three automatic bids each. That takes you to six. The Big 12 and the ACC remain at two. Right. So that's four bids right there. We'll still give one to the. The Notre Dame's out there. We'll give one to. To the group of six. Right. So there's two. So that's at 12. That gives us plus two, plus two picks. To me, that plus two, all that is is the best two teams in the nation that don't fall under in that gap. Can it go to the SEC in the Big Ten? Hell yeah, it can. Do you two of them. Can two of them go to the sec? Absolutely.

[Urban Meyer]

And that's on the committee.

[Mark Ingram]

Who votes on that?

[Rob Stone]

Is it ranking? Is it ranking or is it top 14 teams? Nope. Okay, now we can figure that one out as well because it has to be the it.

[Mark Ingram]

Because I like this model.

[Rob Stone]

Yeah, I do, too.

[Mark Ingram]

I like this model.

[Rob Stone]

And there has to be, you know, everybody has to understand how we're going to characterize the top 14 teams if it continues to be the college football, you know, playoff rankings that came out, which personally I'm okay with. I'll live with that. And again, the SEC and the Big Ten are automatically going to get three teams in. And then there's two wild card spots, for lack of a better term.

[Urban Meyer]

I know you've beat that up enough, Stone. So here I, I actually like that.

[Rob Stone]

Thank you.

[Urban Meyer]

But I would say you need analytics on scheduling then. Yeah, you can't because now you're going.

[Mark Ingram]

To have the SMU getting voted in over Alabama or you have the same type of issue again with those last two spots.

[Rob Stone]

Yeah, it's a tough one. It's a tough one. You're not going to make everybody happy. We realize that.

[Urban Meyer]

I know we're going to hit scheduling at some point. I am really fearful that we have finished. We have, we will never or very rarely see marquee non conference matchups. You're going to see the 50 to 50 to seven preseason games for the first three weeks of the season and Big new will have to be at one of them, unfortunately. So, so got Texas, Ohio State, Big.

[Mark Ingram]

New, we got Texas, Ohio State this year.

[Urban Meyer]

Did you come up with that yourself, Rob?

[Rob Stone]

I did it really good, though. It wasn't that hard. I just subtracted and pushed some numbers around. That's fuzzy math these days.

[Mark Ingram]

That's good stuff there, Stone.

[Rob Stone]

You know what? You know what I'm gonna do? I'm Gonna pitch my 332-211-plus-2 model 2. Our next guest coming up here on the triple option hearing that Michigan man joins us, the Wolverine athletic director, the 2024 College Football Playoff chairman, the great Ward Manual, joins the triple option next. And we got questions for you, Ward.

[Mark Ingram]

I can tell you right now, Warren ain't trying to hear that.

[Rob Stone]

I think I just won my taxes.

[Ward Manuel]

Yeah, I just switched to H R.

[Rob Stone]

Block in about one minute.

[Urban Meyer]

All I had to do was drag.

[Ward Manuel]

And drop last year's return into H R Block and bam. My information is automatically there so I don't have to go digging around for all my old papers to switch.

[Mark Ingram]

Nope.

[Ward Manuel]

Sounds like we just leveled up our tax game.

[Mark Ingram]

Switching to H and R block is easy.

[Ward Manuel]

Just drag and drop your last return.

[Rob Stone]

It's better with block. Don't miss your window of opportunity. Upgrade your space now during blinds.com's anniversary sale and save up to 50% site wide. Our design experts can help schedule a professional measure and installation, plus guidance for DIYers too. With over 25 million windows covered and our 100% satisfaction guarantee, you can count on blinds.com to deliver results you'll love. Shop blinds.com's anniversary sale now for up to 50% off site wide. Save up to 50% [e-mail] rules and restrictions may apply. Welcome back to the Triple Option presented by Wendy's Rob Stone, former Ohio State head coach Irvin Meyer with you and my goodness, look at the background we're working with for this next guest, Ward Manuel, the longtime athletic director at the University of Michigan last year was the College Football Playoff committee chair. And Ward joins us right now. And I can't quite make out who's over your right shoulder. Help. Help me figure that one out, Ward.

[Urban Meyer]

That's an easy one.

[Ward Manuel]

This is, you know, a my, my home office Set up my office in, in our building. We had the power go out. So we were told to work from home this afternoon. And so I happen to be here. And it's. I know how much Urban and I have talked about Bo and Woody and the great respect we both have for those, those two coaches. And, and I know Urban has, you know, Medbo and talked to Bo before we talked about that. So I didn't feel like it would, it would be too bad if I took this podcast from here.

[Urban Meyer]

So great to have you on. And we got to actually spend some time together. I think it was the Orange bowl, might have been the national championship game. And had lunch and hung out. And I remember I walked away and someone said, man, you just hung out with the Wolverine Athletic dress. Yeah, he's actually a hell of a guy, man. So I met Woody Hayes in 1987 right before he passed away. Spent some time with him. I worked for Earl Bruce for a long time. And then I told you the story. But Bo Schembechler invited me up right when I became a first time head coach of Bowling Green. And I read every fricking book on Bo Schembechler. That was my generation. How was it to play for one of the greatest to ever do it?

[Ward Manuel]

Well, he wasn't easy, I can tell you that. He taught me the meaning of really effort, hard work, determination, teamwork, commitment, many of those big words. But the most important thing he taught Urban was, you know, people, people will, they'll do a lot for you, but they'll do more for you if they know you care about them. And what we always knew, no matter how mad he got at us, no matter, you know, what the tension and the pressure were, we knew that Beau loved us as, as people and as people first. And so it, it was, it was easier to take some of the, some of the hard coaching that he gave when you knew that it was coming from a point of love and wanting the best, wanting the best out of you. And so I'm sure that a lot of what you have, have done in your career, in the coaching is that, you know, you could be hard on players. And I tell my staff, I don't expect you to be easy. My coaches, I want you to push them because our student athletes come here because they want to be better and be the best, but just make sure they always know that you care about them as people. And, and that, that was one of the biggest lessons I learned from both.

[Urban Meyer]

You know, Rob's dying to get into the college Football playoff conversation. But I'm trumping him here because we got Ward manual on the, on the show here. So the rivalry was one sided. Now it's four in a row. What one or two things. Obviously the talent. I mean, there's been some. That, that national championship team is one of the best teams I've watched.

[Ward Manuel]

Yeah.

[Urban Meyer]

But even last year, what one or two things that you've witnessed because you've been around this rivalry forever.

[Mark Ingram]

Yeah.

[Urban Meyer]

That flipped this thing.

[Ward Manuel]

I don't know if it's one thing Urban. I mean, you know how that is. I mean that game, you could throw out the record book, you could throw out the, you know, where people are and who's, who's supposed to win those games. And I don't, I don't know what it was. I don't, you know, I can, you know, obviously I'm gonna give credit to Sharon, I'm gonna give credit to the staff and especially the student athletes. I mean, we, you know, I played in that game. It's hard. It's, it's a lot of effort. And in, believe me, we didn't win because Ohio State wasn't giving effort. Everybody was giving effort. But the reality is you had some things, you know, go our way. You know, you had a early pick changed, I think the tenor of the game in the second half. You had a couple of missed field goals from a kicker who was strong all year that just seemingly it happens. Right. And, and so I think that in just the tenacity of the game and the way our kids fought, particularly I think as we evolved, I think Wink called a great game defensively that may have thrown off the game plan. I mean, you know, as a coach better than I do, I just look at it as in the sense of that battle, it was so close that little things made a difference and both teams were, that was a hard hitting game. As you saw, the effort was there. The. Everybody was engaged in. And I think you have, as it comes in all these games, little things that make a difference because normally they're not blowouts. I mean there have been blowouts on both sides over the hundred. Almost 100 years. 100 years of us playing. But you know, it's, it's rare that that's the case in these games. And again, no matter what the record. And so I get, like I said, I give a lot of credit to, to the kids and the fighting of, of the teams, both sides fighting for a win. And ultimately, you know, the, the way it came out is we won the Game and obviously very happy to do it, but it just not. It wasn't like we had some secret, you know, things that. That we did. You know, it's just in. In y'all didn't. Ohio State didn't do any secret things either. I mean, everybody just came and it is just a scrap match from the very start. And so there was. There was nothing. I think, you know, if there's anything, you know, Sharon, like. Like we always want to do is establish the run. And I think that was helpful, you know, in the second half that we were able to. To run the ball and stop the run and. Well, and stop the run, but also keep that powerful offense off the field. I mean, that's right. That's why he really wanted to run and. And figure out a way to do it. And yeah, stopping around. I mean, we. As, you know, the two anchors of our defense are right there in the middle. Two young, unbelievable young men, but also just extremely talented defensive linemen. And, you know, Ohio State center was out. You had moved something. They had moved some people around because of injury, and those kids have been stayed injury free and. And played unbelievably well. So maybe those two are the key. The running game. And then, as you said, stopping to run in Ohio State show they could run the ball. We just said that in that particular game, had a great, great effort defensively on stopping the run.

[Urban Meyer]

You know, I'm gonna hand it to Rob here in a minute, but I have to say this, so it's interesting. You said Wink Martindale, the D coordinator at. At the Wolverines, called really a straight game. A lot like Vic Fangio did against Kansas City Chiefs in the Super Bowl. People related the two where they. They forced Ohio State, you know, when you play that too high structure to run the ball. And they ran right into the meat of that defense. A lot like the Chiefs and Eagles. I mean, it was unbelievable.

[Ward Manuel]

That's a good point.

[Urban Meyer]

I didn't think about, you know, what the heck with Rob. Let's just talk wall here for a while.

[Rob Stone]

Hey, I'm still getting paid the same. Doesn't matter. Well, hold on. Let me add one more little question about Michigan and Ohio State in this new age of the college football playoffs. And the Ohio State athletic director made a subtle comment after the game last year. Does Ohio State, Michigan still matter to the degree that it has and did for U2, with the college football playoffs being the ultimate goal lurking in the background?

[Ward Manuel]

Absolutely. I didn't hear the comment, but. And it's nothing. I Like Ross, he's a, he's been a friend for a long time and remains a friend. But this game means, means everything to both institutions. And I'll speak on behalf of Michigan. I mean, this is, this is the game for a reason. It's called the game for a reason. And that's not going to change with the College Football Playoff. It didn't change with the BCS. It didn't change with the, the playoff format of four games. It's not going to change with 12. And if it goes to 118, it won't change. Is the game for a reason?

[Urban Meyer]

Yeah. You don't want me to go there.

[Rob Stone]

No, no, I know where you stand already on that one. Irvin, you're good. I just like to hear it from the Michigan side. Like to hear the Mason Blue chime in on that. All right, so let's talk about the college football playoffs. Ward, last season was the first edition of the 12 teams. You were the chairman for it. When you reflected back with the rest of the committee and reassessed how everything went, what were the big success points for you guys in your committee?

[Ward Manuel]

Well, I think one, you know, the process that we followed this year was the same process that has been followed for the years, you know, before us. We selected the top 25 for six weeks. We went all the way through, as we were asked to do by the commissioners through the championship weekend and selected the top 25. And so I'm very proud of what the committee did. I'm, I'm one of 13. I'm, I was the spokesperson for it, but proud of the way that we, we went about doing our business to rank the teams. And you're always going to have people who disagree. I mean, that's just the, the part of the business and part of being on the committee that's ranking the same thing. They do the same thing with basketball committees and any other committees. There's always second guessing as to why something happened the way it happened. So I'm very proud of that. Very, very proud of the way the 12 game play, 12 team playoff play played itself out. I mean, it's, you know, you could talk about upsets and who lost and who won, but there was a lot of engagement towards the end of the year, in my opinion, more engagement because there were more teams involved. Even if you go all the way to the big, the ACC championship game where Clemson was in the game, where they wouldn't have even been a part of the conversation had it not been for the way the Playoff was organized where the top five champions get into the playoff. So for me it was very much a great result for the first 12 team playoff because of that, because of the, the amount of engagement in games, you think about the smu. On the other side of that, you think about the pack. I mean the, the Big 12 championship game and what that meant. Those, those are things that I think add a lot of value to the importance of college football towards the end. Because the year prior it was probably what, six, seven, maybe eight teams that were being discussed. Now you have all the way up to 16, 17 teams being discussed. Those things are, I think the value of bringing this championship and increasing the numbers. And so I thought that was a good aspect of the change.

[Urban Meyer]

I think the other great thing is the fans want to see the great players and it's heartbreaking at the end of the year when they don't play. They all played. I mean it was so much fun to watch. So the look test is something that you hear quite often. And one of my concerns as I shared this is that I don't know how you do it. You know, you're on that committee and the analytics or that how do you say, how do you reward a team that plays a, a difficult schedule and how do you punish one that doesn't? You know, I, I hope, I hope we don't see the, I hope we don't see the disappearance of the Ohio State, Texas, the Wolverines, Alabama, the, the non conference that is so good for everything, but it's not good for that team until they get rewarded. So I'm interested on your thoughts on that.

[Ward Manuel]

First of all, I don't, I don't agree with some of my colleagues who think that playing a tough non conference opponent is the right way to go, that you're better off. I think the committee values those games urban. I mean there's no doubt about that. We understand when teams play tough opponents and they have a loss. If you look at it, you know, Alabama was the, the highest ranked three loss team because they had a very tough schedule and they won some, some tough games but they were I think 11th at the, in the last ranking because they also had some bad losses and so there was a balance there. Could we people off often look at Indiana and say well they didn't play anybody, they didn't play a tough non conference. They didn't really play a tough conference schedule. Well, they, they didn't select their, their conference schedule and there were some other teams in other leagues that were also had a Quote, unquote, easier path in their conference from the SEC, from the Big 12, from the ACC. And so it's hard because of the increase in the number of teams in these conferences. You, you're not getting. Always getting top teams either playing each other or playing other teams that are playing well in that particular year. And so that is, I think, Urban, the thing that really sort of complicates the, the ability to have, like, resumes in front of you when you're judging a team that plays a light schedule and wins and wins either in a big way or just wins in a team that plays a tougher schedule and may have some losses to tougher teams. I, I think in the discussion, in the, in the, the discourse that goes on in the room, we actually evaluate that and talk through those things about how we see a team, regardless of whether they lost to a tough opponent, are they still one of the top 10, top 15, top 25 teams in the country, not just looking at, well, they lost, so we're going to kick them to the side.

[Urban Meyer]

I have to ask this one question because I get it all the time. Does the committee ask the simple question, smu, Boise, you know, if. Because I was at Utah, so sometimes I fight for that underdog. But it's also, there's the reality you stick their butt in the Big Ten Conference or the sec, where it's week after week after week. I've just. How does a committee come to grips with that when you have that conversation?

[Ward Manuel]

It's hard. It's hard to do because it's not going to happen. And so you really, as a chair, I'm trying to keep hypothetical situations out of the conversation. And I say that, and it's no slight to teams, but. And I won't even name teams this year. I'll leave it up to you guys to name. There's certain teams that lost this year to opponents that you would say 100%, if that team plays that team that the, that bigger team, that, that stronger team, that stronger brand is going to win a hundred percent. I guarantee it. You know, it's like Charles Barkley. I guarantee, you know, that, that you're going to have a win. And the problem is we see it over and over, annually, each year, we see teams who should beat other teams that, on paper, on the, on, on the ESPN, it has, what, 95% certainty a team's going to win. You never see a hundred because people know anybody can be upset at any day of the, of the year. And so it's hard you know, people want to go that way outside of the committee room, but all we could do is judge the resumes we see in front of us and judge people by whom they played. We can't say what would happen if, if Michigan had the same schedule as Indiana or Indiana had the same schedule as Penn State. We, we can't go to those places because that's not what exists in front of us. And so whether it's a Boise or Utah compared to Alabama or Michigan, you can't, you know, reverse it and play them and then say hypothetically in our mind, how would that play out?

[Urban Meyer]

Right.

[Rob Stone]

The main criticisms out there were in regards to the seating. How would you change the seating going forward if, if you were asked and does it actually need to be changed or should we still be honoring these conference champions and giving them that buy?

[Ward Manuel]

Well, you know, Greg Sankey and Tony Petiti came out and said they would like to see the seating change to seeing the, the teams ranked and seated as they are. And I would 100% agree with that. I think what threw it off in, in, and I battled that with friends in, in people who would say, well, you know, the number three team lost, you know, in the playoffs, the number four team lost in the playoffs. And I'm like, now number 14 was ranked 12. Number three team was ranked eight. Now one and two loss because they were the same. But you, you have these shifts and you have these people, these, these teams that to me it makes it unfair when teams are ranked one and two and because of the way they're seated, that people can come into those positions and back stronger teams up into positions where they're playing you earlier than they normally would. And so I think it puts those teams that, that bounce out of the, the, the top four because other teams come in, I think it puts them at a disadvantage because you're playing either tougher teams earlier or as the number one and two team did this year, they're playing a higher ranked team earlier in the playoffs than they would have if they would have just seated them. So in my opinion, you add the five conference champions and you leave them ranked where they are unless they're outside. So this year everybody would have been ranked 1 through 10. Arizona State would have moved from 12 to 11 and Clemson would have moved to 12 and then you, then you set the playoff from there.

[Urban Meyer]

Agree any.

[Rob Stone]

It's very simple, right? I agree with you, Ward. I think we, we all do. The college football world.

[Urban Meyer]

I'm just trying to think of all the alphas in that room and all the, oh man. All the investments, you know, experience. Is there a time where it gets heated? Is there a time or. I mean I, I just at times I'd visualize what in the heck is going on in that room because this isn't a game anymore. This is a business. But it's also players lives. It's, it's. And then the road to the championship is so. And that was also received some criticism which I get it, you know, that not necessarily the conference champion had the, or some of the teams had a much easier road than another. And it's all part of the draw. I mean, tell us about the heat. Is there heat? Is there intensity or, or share what you could share?

[Ward Manuel]

Yeah, well, Urban, I remember one time I was, before I went on, it must have been the second or third week I was watching the preview the, the show as they were announcing and the argument that was going on in the studio, you know, between Reese and Joey and Booger and Greg and they, they're arguing over why certain things and which team and who should be ranked and those kind of things. And one of the questions came up and I said, guys, we did this. We, we did the same thing for, at the time you take it, we, we are there 7, 11 to 12 hours, we're sitting in a room arguing over the top 25. And yes, it can get heated. Yes, it does get heated that people. Nobody stands up, nobody pounds, nobody threatens anybody. It's all professionally done. But people, it gets loud at times because people really every, every one of the 13 of the committee members care deeply about wanting to get it right. And so they're going to express themselves. I, as the chair would pull people in if they weren't talking just to, just to get them to, to, to give their thoughts about it. And a lot of the times people would add, would, wouldn't talk because it's already been said. So they felt like, well, what I was going to say has already been said, but it's good to pull it out of them. But you know, in, in this case, yeah, I mean there's a lot of that kind of debate that goes on and, and I want the one thing to understand about what happens in that room, Urban, is that it's all the way 1 through 25. There's no let up because we're, oh, we're out. We're. We're past 12. Let's just hurry up and get it done. I mean there's arguments between, you know, 21 to 25 in terms of how people rank. Because we understand to your point, it's important to those coaches, it's important especially to those players, is important to the institutions in it. And so we care what happens 1 through 25 and input that effort in all the way through or let's pivot.

[Rob Stone]

Forward out into the future. And I know things are going to change in the coming years. So the Big Ten and the SEC reportedly have put out this, this concept for a 14 team playoff. And I know you're very well aware of it. You know, four automatic bids, if you will, for the SEC for the Big Ten, two automatics for the ACC and the Big 12, one for the non, the non big boys, if you will, and one that's still kind of lurking out there for Notre Dame should they fill those qualifications. So the 442211 model, why is that the best thing for college football if it is in your eyes?

[Ward Manuel]

Well, I think, listen, it's all, it's all a part of the conversation. It's a, it's a conversation about expansion. It's a conversation about a way to potentially structure play ins into the championship that it's actually played on the field. There's commentary for example, that certain people have said that they rather not be playing in the championship game. Well, that to me takes away from the fact that you have championship games. So if, if in this, in the sense of it, you can, you can come up with a format that actually has people who play into the playoff, everybody would play into the playoff. That actually adds to me value to it as opposed to some people saying, well I'll just sit out and I'll be selected. Well, you're leaving that game. That's a game of chance in terms of what the committee's doing. But I just think it's part of the conversation. It's something that I applaud Greg and Tony for bringing forward and having conversations with us as ads to think about a new way to think about this playoff. Everybody in. And when you look at and compare us to the profession, particularly professional football, there's everybody's playing that last week into, into a playoff game. And in college we, we don't have that. We have championship games where you have a certain number playing games. In this year it's 18 out of, you know, 132. So if there's a format that, that allows some, some way for all teams to be playing in to the playoff, I think that adds value to it.

[Rob Stone]

Is it.

[Urban Meyer]

My last question, my last question real quick.

[Rob Stone]

Coach Let me just hit this because I know where you're going here. Is it fair to the Big 12s? Is it fair to the ACCs? Is it fair to the Mountain Wests of the world?

[Ward Manuel]

I don't know. I mean, you know, again, it's a conversation to be had around the. The playoff itself. And, and how do you structure and how do you strengthen it so that it adds a lot of value to football? Nobody. Look the argument of, And I've read some of it, that it. This has only been done doing. Done out of greed, that's not. Not the case. I mean, we feel like we would earn those spots anyway in a particular way. But if it's about changing it so that people are able to enhance the playoff structure and to play in and to the points that were made earlier to get rid of this concept of subjectivity, let's make it objective. Let's. Let's put some parameters on it and put a structure around it that has some objectivity where teams have to play in order to play in, as opposed to certain teams playing their championship games and others get in because of de facto they're ranked at a certain place and they can't drop, you know, far enough to be out of it. I mean, that, to me, also says there's something. When the. When the questions are about so much about subjectivity and what people are talking about in the room, I think you. You put some objectivity to it and you put some games as a way to play in that I think makes it, you know, people see it as. Instead of just seeing it as, well, you're taking four spots. You're. You're taking four spots, two spots, whatever spots the commissioners decide to do. And you're actually having people play games to play in. That, to me, is. Is a format that follows what a lot of our leagues and our teams that we have in the way we play get to playoffs.

[Urban Meyer]

All right, my last question, Ward, is this, is that there was not long ago that the sec, Big Ten really wasn't close. You know, and I was part of that. I remember when I first went from the sec, the Big Ten, I was like, this is. Even my wife said, my gosh. And then you have national championships the last two years, the stadiums. And this is even with Wisconsin, Michigan State, and Nebraska not being what they normally are. I'm sure they'll be back. But as an athletic director or former player at a Big Ten school to see the training. And once again, next year is a whole other year. I got sick when People say, is SEC done? Of course not.

[Ward Manuel]

No.

[Urban Meyer]

But you have to recognize the transition of power which has happened, and you have to appreciate it if you're, you know, I'm a Big Ten guy, grew up in that area. Now, that doesn't mean it's over. You know, I gotta make. Because I can see the headline right now. It's not.

[Ward Manuel]

No, it's not.

[Urban Meyer]

But there's a lot of credit to a lot of people, the athletic directors, the coaches, and most importantly, players that have made the Big Ten what it is today.

[Ward Manuel]

Yeah, I agree. Urban. I grew up in. Born and raised in Louisiana, so I know, you know, what the SEC is about. I was raised in. In that, you know, football. And I do agree that there was a time where the speed, the. The different things that they did in the sec, they. They. They had speed with power. Right? I mean, that. That was the combination. The Big Ten has always been about power and about running the ball. And I think, you know, I give credit to, you know, what Jim did, what Sharon's doing, what you did, you know, what Ryan's done. Done to really say we want both. We want to. To really compete, and we see what we need to do to compete against teams that were dominant in. In that. And so I agree with you that there's been a change. There's been a different focus. There's been a need to adjust to the level of football that needs to be played in order to win the national championship. And so I agree that the Big Ten has changed the way they've done it. You know, you brought that in from the sec. Jim brought it in from, you know, being in. In professional ball, in understanding how to get to, you know, in his case, a Super bowl, those kind of things. You have to make those adjustments to. To figure out a way to win, you know, a game in multiple ways. And I think that's. That's been the success in the past couple of years.

[Rob Stone]

Hey, Ward, when I say Ohio State, as a former player and an AD for Michigan, what. What kind of goes through your whole body when you hear those two words, Ohio State?

[Ward Manuel]

It's, you know, the. The greatest rivalry in. In college sports. It's a team that makes us our best and that we want to win at everything we compete against them for. And so for me is a. It's a. It's a. A level of competition that makes the difference in terms of how you are measured. We measure ourselves against each other, and we play that way. We play at everything we do. We try to win against them and that, that is an opponent. That's why I've always had respect. And I think that's why Beau respected Woody as much as you had the ten year war is because when somebody can bring out the best in you in the most competition and bring that level, then, then you have to, to acknowledge that and, and make sure that you're. You step up to compete at every, every time in every sport. Any day that you're playing that opponent now you want to do that against others. But the history in what that game and what those competitions mean against each other, I think just elevates it to another level.

[Urban Meyer]

You were three and one, right? I think so.

[Rob Stone]

What do you mean you think so? You got to know these numbers, man. Coach.

[Ward Manuel]

What?

[Rob Stone]

Urban, what were you against Michigan? He knows his numbers.

[Urban Meyer]

Can't remember.

[Ward Manuel]

Yeah. What was that? 7 and oh.

[Rob Stone]

Oh, it sure as hell was. Yeah, he knows.

[Ward Manuel]

That's why he said three and one.

[Rob Stone]

Because he wanted to make sure I fell right. Pulling you all in, man. That's so great.

[Urban Meyer]

Very, very generous with your time, Ward. Thank you.

[Rob Stone]

Yeah, thanks so much for joining us.

[Ward Manuel]

Thanks for the coverage y'all do for, for college football and everything that y'all bring.

[Rob Stone]

Hey, we do it for college basketball, too. I'm heading in studio right now for college hoops. We got some great Michigan hoops still to go this march. Ward Manual, the athletic director at the University of Michigan, thanks so much for joining the triple option.

[Ward Manuel]

Thank you guys for having me.

[Rob Stone]

Welcome back to the triple option presented by Wendy's, Rob Stone, Mark Ingram, Urban Meyer here with you. Now that we're in the college college football off season, we're going to take a look and take a crack at predicting the future with the old triple option crystal ball. So this segment, of course, brought to you by our great friends at BetMGM. Place your moneyline prop parlay and same game parlay bets at BetMGM. Download the app today. Please gamble responsibly. As always, these lines are subject to change. So we're going to be looking at some future odds from the NFL draft. College football team win totals, a lot of other things. So with the NFL combine just wrapping up the other day and kind of launching us into this NFL draft season, we're going to talk about the number one overall pick. But before we get to combine odds, we want to flashback Mark. We're going into the triple option time machine. Your combine visit. All right, when you were a young man leaving the University of Alabama, you weighed in. What do you think you weighed in at.

[Mark Ingram]

I weighed in at 215.

[Rob Stone]

I remember 215. I'm a mighty 5 foot 9 10.

[Mark Ingram]

They cheated me. I was like 5 foot 9 and.

[Rob Stone]

3 me on my ID as well I should be 5 10, a 4.6, 6 40.

[Mark Ingram]

Your verse, that's a lie. I don't know where y'all got that number.

[Rob Stone]

Okay, your vert. What was it, 466?

[Mark Ingram]

It was 4 6, though. High. 4 5, something like that.

[Rob Stone]

Are you all right with your vertical at 31 and a half?

[Mark Ingram]

No, I didn't, I didn't test well.

[Rob Stone]

You did not have a good combine. According to you, your broad jump, 9, 10. You all right with that?

[Mark Ingram]

I didn't test great. I didn't test great at all. But listen, everywhere that you need a football player, I did, I did great in the meeting room when they handed me the ball, had me going over the bags and changing directions. Football stuff I did. Now, if you wanted someone to look good in underwear and, and run fast and, and jump high, that's where you.

[Rob Stone]

Come to me and coach and not.

[Mark Ingram]

And not play football really well, right? That wasn't me. That wasn't me. I, I, I, I was a football player, man.

[Rob Stone]

Not an underwear model on the board.

[Mark Ingram]

Doing the X's and O's. I'm going tell you who I need to pick up in pass protection. I'mma tell you how I need to press the heels of the alignment and cut it back and get vertical, get yards after contact. That's who I was. I was your football player.

[Rob Stone]

All right, so you're not an underwear model. You are a football player. Okay, we got that.

[Mark Ingram]

Who you want, coach? You want somebody that look good. I know, I know. You had fast people all on your team. Coach.

[Urban Meyer]

Well, I think there's a fine line, but yeah, I'm not a big, you know, who can bench the most, who can do this? That don't, don't say that's not important, because that is absolutely.

[Mark Ingram]

It is important.

[Urban Meyer]

I think you also have to look at how was he coached? You get a Nick Saban player. You know that players. And this is really intriguing. You get a player that, from a program that is not well coached, you would always look and say, there's a lot more room for growth there. You're going to get a guy that you know and is the elite developer. An Alabama kid. I like to think maybe at Ohio State, when we were there in Florida, there, those players were coached up. Now those are, you know, Mark Ingram, you better appreciate what you got. Because he's been coached hard, he's been taught the right fundamentals. Don't devalue that kid. That comes from some program. Then you go in and the scouts go in and say, wait a minute now this cat has not worked on pass protection. This guy's not worked on this. He's not. And then can he learn that? That's to me, the fine line of the NFL draft is take a look at what is the maximum when that guy maximizes. What will he be?

[Mark Ingram]

Yeah.

[Urban Meyer]

And the one thing about a Mark Ingram, I don't, you know, mark tailback. You know, I never that worried about 40 yard dash. But can you do the, all the other stuff though?

[Mark Ingram]

Out of all the backs, I had the fastest 10 yard split.

[Urban Meyer]

Will he, will he stick his nose on you? And pass protection, will he come out of the backfield? Does he understand a complicated offensive scheme? Those are all high value marks in the NFL draft for that.

[Rob Stone]

That's why the combine is always so interesting though, is because people get attached to this little window of data that is thrown at them. Jumping and the bench press and as you said, the, the lingerie show, walking around in their underwear. But there's more.

[Mark Ingram]

It is very important, Stone. It is very important. But at the end of the day, I think some people lose. The point of what the combine is, is you're evaluating football players.

[Rob Stone]

Yeah.

[Mark Ingram]

So turn on the tape and see how this man plays football and sit.

[Rob Stone]

And sit them down and talk to them and have a real conversation with them and learn who they are. I think, I think that's the real value these days of the combine is, is those interviews and what happens in them. So here's what we're going to do, guys. If we were picking number one overall, who would we take right now? And we're not going to break it down and say, well, we're Tennessee or we're the Giants or we're whoever. We're not going to talk NFL fit. We're talking an expansion franchise picking number one. The odds you're going to see them right now, they are expansion franchise picking number one.

[Mark Ingram]

So I don't have a quarterback.

[Rob Stone]

You have nothing. Okay. The odds set up there by our great friends at BetMGM and this is something you guys can play with out there. And we're, you're going to see the odds right now. And right now, the number one overall pick, it's Cam Ward again, the Miami QB, over four, 300 yards passing. Abdul Carter, the great defensive end from Penn State, plus 185. Travis Hunter, the two way guy at plus 1100. His teammate at Colorado, Shador Sanders at 1500. Jackson Dart, the Ole Miss QB at plus 500. So there's a lot of ways you can go with it and coach you were in this position obviously. But I think the general consensus there is you can win first with a good defensive team. Right. If you can get a good defensive team, you got a chance. But boy, if you got a quarterback that you believe in and Leo and, and can live with for a while, it's super tempting out there to take that, that QB to be the face of your program from the get go. From the jump.

[Urban Meyer]

Yeah. I think the quarterback position is, you know, it used to last. I used to laugh when they'd say well in the NFL the quarterback's most important position. I was like, yeah, no shit. So in the, so in college, junior high and even Pop Warner, it's a quarterback driven. But you know, if you're going to take that quarterback, there has to be 0.00 doubt that that guy because that's not a, that's not like a corner, that's not like a linebacker. When you take the quarterback, invest that kind of money, he's yours.

[Mark Ingram]

Yes.

[Urban Meyer]

And that's it. It's overdone. It's a, you know, it's a wrap and I. Over the history. I don't have that in front of me. But we've also studied it before. When you get stuck with a guy that's not the guy that you think he is, that sets the program back or franchise back years because you can't, no one's going to eat up his contract. It's, you know, it's, that's, that's a rugged place to be and we saw it just in the recent history there's been a couple, you know, quarterbacks taken early on and they end up being backups at some other place. And those teams by the way are really struggling. You know, we all know who you know, you don't want to list them too many of them, but you take a guy as a number one, number two, number three pick and you say I need a quarterback. I would say, no, you don't need, you need a quarterback. You need the right quarterback.

[Mark Ingram]

Right.

[Urban Meyer]

And I'd rather invest if it's not that guy on a Travis Hunter, Abdul Carter.

[Mark Ingram]

Yep.

[Rob Stone]

So who's your number one coach? I'm giving you the number one pick right now with your expansion. Yeah. The fight in Urban Meyers will take.

[Urban Meyer]

I'm taking Travis Hunter, I just think he's. In my lifetime, very few can do what he can do. I stood next to the guy, I watched him. Obviously we covered him quite a bit. I probably would play him both ways and just invest in that guy. He's a good person. He's. I mean, he's got a skill set that not many. I've never, you know, that can do both. I don't know if I've ever seen that mark. I don't know if I've ever seen a guy at that level do both. And there's something about him when he plays.170 plays, is 168th on offense, blocking 25 yards down the field. The same energy they did on play 16.

[Ward Manuel]

Yep.

[Urban Meyer]

So I'm going.

[Mark Ingram]

Or the 120th play, forcing the fumble in overtime on the goal line to win the game.

[Urban Meyer]

Yeah.

[Mark Ingram]

So he's still getting a high level of play from this player even though he's playing 100 plus snaps.

[Rob Stone]

All right, so, coach, you're taking Travis Hunter. Mark Ingram, you are on the clock with the number one overall pick this year for your expansion team.

[Mark Ingram]

You are taking my expansion team, and my expansion team doesn't have a quarterback. Lord. Listen, this isn't me talking because I'm a big fan of Cam Ward and I'm a big finisher, Shador Sanders. I think that they're going to be good professional football players.

[Rob Stone]

You're not looking. You're not looking for good with the number one overall pick. You're looking for Elite.

[Mark Ingram]

The talking. This isn't me. I'm not a talking head. I'm just Mark. But the talking heads out there are saying that this is the worst quarterback class in recent history. That's what the talking heads are saying. So don't say Mark Ingram said that, because I'm not a talking head. I'm just on the podcast with my friends. My name is Mark ii. So I'm not the talking head. But that's what they're saying. That's what those people are saying on this tv. That's what they're saying.

[Rob Stone]

All right, so what are you saying, brother? So I'm saying right now, sounds like you're buying time.

[Mark Ingram]

I hate to be the copycat, you know what I mean? If I don't love. If I'm not in love with the quarterback selection here, I'mma grab me one in free agency. Like someone like Sam Darnold, who did well in Minnesota, and Russell Wilson, who is going to be on the block. You know what I mean, you got.

[Rob Stone]

James or Justin Fields.

[Mark Ingram]

Yep, Justin Fields. Maybe I go with a veteran guy until I love my pick the next year, you know what I mean? And I'm going to take a playmaker at the wide receiver position and the cornerback position by the name of Heisman Trophy winner Travis Hunter. I'm copying coach right here because I just love the guy. I love his mindset, I love his work ethic and the rarity of the talent that he's playing with. At the wide receiver position and the defensive back position, you're getting a number one shutdown corner. He plays man, he plays press. He could play off. He has great ball skills on the defensive side. Then you got a guy who has great running, good speed and great boss skills. We've seen him high point the ball, make acrobatic catches, run with after the catch. So you're getting two players for one?

[Rob Stone]

Yes.

[Mark Ingram]

And right now in this draft I'm going with that. Travis Hunter. I'm getting two players with my first overall pick and that is who I'm taking with the number one pick. Then I'm have to revisit free agency for my quarterback.

[Urban Meyer]

How about you, Stone?

[Rob Stone]

Stone is a big fan of Bogo. Buy one, get one free, right? So Travis Hunter. I'm getting myself a starting wide receiver. I'm getting myself a starting defensive back. Hell yeah. I'll take that. I'll take that all day.

[Mark Ingram]

Travis Hunter for the sweep.

[Rob Stone]

Travis Hunter for the sweep. Also. I would definitely trade out of number one. I'd get out of that. I'd stockpile picks. The one thing that worries me or it doesn't worry me, makes me curious about Travis Hunter is, you know, there were definitely some conversations during that Heisman Trophy ceremony and going beyond it about off the field stuff with Travis. Everything that we've seen and we've dealt with, this is a top level young man. This is an elite human being, not just an athlete. But I would want to make sure everything is kind of dialed in with his camp. But everything that I've seen and that we've been lucky enough to witness and he's got Deion Sanders right there who going to be looking out for this young man in a father figure type role. I think I would feel very comfortable with that electric smile on billboards all over beautiful Stone City as my number one overall draft. That he is an elite human being on and off the field. And I think he's. I like to trade out of first game difference. What's that?

[Mark Ingram]

I like to trade out of first.

[Rob Stone]

Yeah. Oh, 100% so happy. Yeah, I'd be happy to trade out.

[Mark Ingram]

If you trade down to 7, 8, 9, you're still going to probably get your guy.

[Rob Stone]

And guess what, Give me a late round one or early round two and I'll be happy with Jackson Dart as a quarterback sitting right there and learning for a year or two and then just kind of pinging things around. So I like, I like Dart, but I think it's, I think it's pretty surreal that we all agree that Travis Hunter would be our face of our first year franchise. Pretty cool. Congratulations Travis. We'll get you something for that from the Triple option. Make sure to follow subscribe rate us on YouTube number one you win overall number one wherever you get your podcast as well as across social media at 3x option show. As always, thanks to our great sponsors Wendy's and BetMGM and Travis Hunter. Congratulations on being the number one pick of the Triple Options brand new franchise team.