← The Truth About Vintage Amps with Skip Simmons
The Truth About Vintage Amps with Skip Simmons
Ep. 134: "A Little Debbie Swiss Roll"
01:26:39
It's the 134th episode of the Truth About Vintage Amps podcast, where amp tech Skip Simmons fields your questions on all-things-tube amp. This week, we're joined by jazz guitarist Jonathan Stout where we talk EH-150s, field coil speakers and...
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- [00:11]
Skip Simmons
Morning, Jason.
- [00:12]
Jason
Good morning. How are you?
- [00:14]
Skip Simmons
I'm fine. And technology worked perfectly.
- [00:18]
Jason
Yes.
- [00:19]
Skip Simmons
I didn't. I. Everything is just grand. How about you?
- [00:25]
Jason
Oh, things are fantastic. Things are fine. Life's kind of thrown me some curveballs over the last couple months, but the show must go on. And this is the 134th episode of the Truth About Vinny Jams podcast.
- [00:42]
Skip Simmons
You ever think that sometime there might be somebody that this is the very first one that they're listening to? So when I say George did this or that, nobody's gonna know what the hell we're talking about.
- [00:53]
Jason
Well, that happens. And then we got some people who, like, are starting from zero. And I'm always embarrassed because the audio quality is so bad. And yeah, we get the full gamut.
- [01:05]
Skip Simmons
The great Kevin Lepley, he didn't listen forever. And Kevin in Ohio, and he finally just decided he was going to. And he's got one of those kind of brains, you know, has to check it off. Right. So he starts with the very first one. Oh, my God. Goodness. But speaking of him, if you're ever in Virginia, Triple E Jerky. Not you. It's not kale. Excellent. And even for you, they make this stuff. Basically, it looks like little squares of an old fashioned ice cream sandwich, you know, with the vanilla and sort of chocolatey stuff on the top and the bottom. But it's freeze dried, it's freeze dry. Right. It's just in a bag. But when you eat it, it tastes exactly like an ice cream sandwich. And one of its many faults is not only are you stuffed from eating too many, but it makes you want to go get a real ice cream sandwich.
- [02:02]
Jason
Wait, jerky?
- [02:04]
Skip Simmons
No, there's two things. The Triple E jerky was fabulous, but also from the same place, they make this dehydrated freeze dried ice cream sandwich. And it's just. It's fantastic. It's trouble. You could. You know the kind of thing you get started on and then you go, oh, no. She said, I stopped a long time ago. I had to put it on a high shelf. Ms. Simmons just went and got a chair. Right. So anyway, we veered into Keep. Let's keep going. Maybe we better talk about sponsors.
- [02:36]
Jason
Yeah. Yeah. So for anyone tuning in for the first time, or not for the first time, this is the 134th episode of the Truth About Vintage Amps podcast. Where Amtech. Skip Simmons. I know. Fields your questions on all things Tuban Prepare and restoration. Today we're going to have a special guest, Jonathan Stout, an amazing pre Bebop Jazz guitar guy. We'll talk about that reformed lawyer turned jazz guitarist. It's a wild story and he listens to this podcast and has questions for you. So we'll get into that. We also want to encourage you all to send us your amp questions. You can record a voice memo on your phone or email them to podcastrepboardjournal.com we want to thank our sponsors. They are Grez Guitars. Barry's making the most beautiful, perfect, not overbuilt. Nothing overdone. Just like elegant, gorgeous guitars. Including that Mendocino and the Mendocino Bas 6 that he's been making lately. Check them out. Follow Barry. I'll include a link in the show. Notes Amplified Parts sponsoring the show once again. They've got currently JJ products on sale, but they've also got the Jack Dar book that is often mentioned on this podcast. They've got pretty affordable amp kits if you want to solder for the first time. Everything we talk about that's new can pretty much be found there. Let them know the truth about vintage amp sent you. Emerald City Guitars is sponsoring the podcast once again. They've got their YouTube channels blowing up right now. They just had a video with Joe Bonamassa who stopped by their store right before opening for the Rolling Stones here in Seattle. He he got to open for them and he only played five songs but he trucked out three dumbles for I guess when you're opening for the Stones you you pull out all the stops, but it's a great video. Stack is sponsoring the podcast once again. Check out their closeout section. They've got 7189 tubes. They've got Tung Sal 6L6s. They've got a whole bunch of tubes in there and we have a Patreon for this show patreon.com renajamps where you can get to the front of the line.
- [04:46]
Skip Simmons
7189S. That's a cool theme.
- [04:52]
Jason
Yeah, they've got a whole bunch of stuff.
- [04:54]
Skip Simmons
Sponsors are great businesses where you get to interact with someone, a professional like Grez or Emerald City. Friend of the podcast George Danger uxb going to crazy places around the country for his work and in his time off going to little mom and pop be kind of small music stores and say talking about that with me and I think there's enough of the gigantic ones and I know it's not like the old days but I I see a definite little trend to people wanting to go somewhere and not just buy the thing if they can find it for the cheapest price. But to get a little practical advice, there's a hardware store in Vacaville, California that you can walk into with anything in your hand. And a grown adult man or woman, 60 years old, with decades of experience in whatever electrical painting will go. Okay, here you go. Follow me and we'll hand it to you. Yeah, can't do that at the Home Depot.
- [06:02]
Jason
No.
- [06:02]
Skip Simmons
Or a place like that. So. Okay, thanks.
- [06:05]
Jason
Sponsors Skip, what's on your bench?
- [06:11]
Skip Simmons
Some ancient pre war junk which I have a love hate relationship with. There's Electar Model M, which is one of the ones that were made by Nat Daniel for Epiphone. Right. But every one I've ever seen is different from the other one. And every schematic I've ever seen is different from this one. If somebody has a model M with six N6 power tubes in it and let me know. And this is pretty good. The other one is a national Dobro amp from the 30s. Both of these amps are just the very Lynn Wheelwright dawn of electric junk. Right? The very first amps, basically practical speaker and an amp in a box that you could carry, generally designed to amplify a steel or a microphone. And longtime pal and listener Drew bought it because he's into crazy ancient junk like Larry Chung. It's a little wooden box, and on the front is a metal cover plate that looks just like the COVID plate from an ancient Dobro guitar. Why? Because it is a cover plate from an ancient Toro guitar that they just screwed on there when they were making these things. Right.
- [07:27]
Jason
Oh, wow. I've never thought of that. That's what that is.
- [07:30]
Skip Simmons
Yeah. Or some of them are. Not all. You know that that round metal grill thing was done by lots of different companies, but there's some do bros. If you look long enough, you'll go, well, that's the exact same pattern as that. And that's on a guitar and that's on an amp. Anyway, this weird thing uses power tubes called two A3s. Is everyone falling asleep? The two A3 came out in 1933 and was basically the original High Fidelity tube. And a pair of two A3s in a certain type of circuit to this day is ultra highly coveted by a certain crowd of hi fi nerds. Right? It's the first triode. Right after that came the Western Electric 300B, which are slightly more powerful. And that became the most expensive audio tube ever. But the 2A3 was the beginning. So thanks to the fact that somebody put vacuum tube Valley magazine, every issue on the computer, and some groovy person sent me a whole three binders of all of them, all bound up and everything. I have some, but of course I've lost some and loan some out. And they're scattered around. And having them all in a big pile like that. Go to the 2A3 issue entitled the Mother of High Fidelity. And there it is. RCA Cunningham, 1933. Only the very first two A3. And there's a beautiful pair of them in this amp.
- [09:11]
Jonathan Stout
Whoa.
- [09:11]
Skip Simmons
They're probably worth a thousand dollars.
- [09:16]
Jason
Wow. More than the amp.
- [09:18]
Skip Simmons
Yes. But historically, the amp is really groovy because all that stuff is underappreciated, and it is kind of. They're clunky, you know, Model T, not so fun on the freeway, you know, and they're usually overpowered for the speak for the cabinet. And they're usually pretty loud and they run pretty hot. Tend to be kind of noisy and hummy, but worth fixing up. And he's signed up for a big restoration project on this. We're going to see if our guy at Weber Speakers can recone this thing. The speaker that's in there, fuel coil, of course. And just some lucky Joe buys some piece of junk. And there they are, engraved base, RCA monoplate, two A3s. I know somebody who listens to the podcast is going to go, Whoa, 1934, they added support rods. Is that arcane enough? But you're just. I'm just looking at an article, and here's mine. Here's the ones I'm looking at. No support rod, 1933, with support rod, 1934. Just the very first version of the very first audio tube. Just cool. And we got to get them some different ones that aren't so rare and unusual and get those ones into the hands of somebody who's going to help finance the restoration. Yeah, that's interesting.
- [10:41]
Jason
Going. Going back to the. The first amp. The.
- [10:46]
Skip Simmons
The Electar.
- [10:47]
Jason
Yeah, the Electar. So what is your strategy there? Because it's. There's no. Okay. You just stare at it.
- [10:54]
Skip Simmons
Well, here's the thing. If it was unmessed with the national Dobro amp, hasn't had anything but some filter caps put in it a million years ago. And they still had cloth electrical tape, but the Electar has, like, new brand. Somebody within the last 10 years went in there and just did this absolute garbage job of trying to replace some parts. And of course, once that happens, you just don't really know. You can't be sure that you're replacing it can't be sure that it's the way it was supposed to be. And yes, there's similarities, you know, and you could make something work. But I like it. I like to know it's going to come out. And as if we haven't been arcane enough, the 6 and 6 is a power tube, like say a 6V6. But in it, inside the glass is another triode tube, right? Like half a 12ax7 or something like that. And they're internally coupled in this weird way which requires a really unique circuit to run them. The only other amp I've ever seen that used them, not the only other, but there is a Charlie Christian. Eh, 150, one of those Charlie Christian apps. There's one version that uses those tubes. Of course, when I make the Charlie Christian amp, I don't use those tapes. They're a pain. But. But they have to have negative voltage. They're fixed bias like a modern tube amp is. And of course there were no diodes back then. So they've got to use this really crazy method of floating grounds and backward filter caps to generate this negative voltage to make these six N6s work. And all that's been hacked out and hooked up wrong. So it just would be mighty challenging without a circuit, even for me. All right, how's that?
- [12:50]
Jason
That was great. We have a whole bunch of questions and voice memos that have been submitted to us. We've got, like I said, special guest Jonathan Stout, who I think is going to be bringing back some more field coil questions for you. You ready to field some field some questions?
- [13:06]
Skip Simmons
Sure. Although, before I forget, I have a beautiful falcon for the right price all fixed up. Do you want to talk about it, Miller Jensen? No, and I'm not shipping it, but twelve hundred dollars. Okay. There's a band from northern California, gotta mention them. Mumbo Gumbo.
- [13:23]
Jason
Oh yeah.
- [13:24]
Skip Simmons
They've been playing for, I mean like the grateful dead, like 30 years or something. And he's the. He's the young guy, guitar player who owns this Falcon, which means he's been playing with them for like 18 years or something, right? Because that band has been around forever, but that's the guy. And he's found himself with too many amps. And he lives in Sacramento. I think he has two, to tell you the truth. But nice Jensen from an old Hammond organ, you know, a good one and all fixed up by me with all the tweaks. 1200. Don't offer me less. Okay, now I'm ready for a call.
- [13:59]
Jason
All right, well, Bob and Bismarck, North Dakota likes to do things backwards apparently. He's got two questions. He says he's a new builder, he's listened to all the podcasts and he loves the show. Still learning and keep it up. Question one. I installed one electrolytic capacitor in backwards on a 5F 2A build and after slow power up my current meter on the Variac showed I was drawing too much current. Took me a bit to find that in a grounding error, but after the correction the amp work sounded good for a bit. But the corrected reverse cap is now getting really hot. It's Is that a common issue if they are installed in reverse leaking dc?
- [14:43]
Skip Simmons
First I'd like to know if he's Talking about a 450500 volt power supply filter, electrolytic capacitor or in a lot of amps there's little dinky 25 volt ones where there's very low voltage applied to them. So I'll just say for both if you hook up a polarized thing backwards, its next place should be in the circular file, right? I don't want to know. Right. And the fact that it's getting hot or some current. Toss that thing and quit putting them in backwards. And of course look at them sometimes. You'd be surprised how well I famously put one in backwards one time. I don't want to talk about that, but I've seen quite a few where people look at the nomenclature or writing on the capacitor and somehow they don't get that the arrow has a negative sign in it and is actually pointing to ground, not positive. But just look at the construction of electrolytic capacitors. The negative is connected to a metal shell that encases the capacitor. The positive always has a little rubber or some type of insulating material where it joins the body of the cap. Right? So backwards. Don't use them after they've been in there backwards. I'm not surprised. And that leak in D.C. thing, that's not really what we do with electrolytics. That's. That's strictly for capacitors that are used as cup in coupling stages. Smaller values like 02 0.05 and they have to allow the AC signal to pass, but they have to stop any DC from going through there. Wow. You know, here's your segue. Here's how those coupling caps work. I was reading an old book and I saw it explained like this. Get you a six by six piece of tinfoil and attach a wire to it. Then get you say a piece of paper six by six, put it down on top. Then get you another six by six piece of tin foil and attach a wire to that. Now roll that sucker up like a little Debbie Swiss roll right in like a spiral. The bottom line is those two wires aren't touching. But they're so close together over such a wide. They're. They're really close together but they're not touching. You get the. You get the ability for an AC signal to pass through that thing. But since the two wires aren't touching, DC can't go through it. When old, when old coupling caps start breaking down, you start getting positive DC voltage going through there. And that's when you got problems. That's how a coupling cap works. Not electrolytic ones are more complicated. But I think we got that guy's question pretty well. And if you do something stupid with something like it gets all burnt and overheated. Even resistors. If I see one that's not the right colors, even if it reads okay, I say that resistor at some point got way too hot. I'm replacing it in most cases. Next, Bob.
- [17:55]
Jason
Bob continues with doing things backwards. He says he recently bought an old budget Gregory Mark one that had been gutted beyond repair. Six inch speaker, low watt. He wants to install a 5F 2A circuit in the simple chassis. But the space available is opposite of a Fender layout diagram. I can fabricate openings for tube sockets, transformer, etc. But is there any issue with flipping the fiber board from a 5F 2A kit upside down to the layout to lay out the circuit in reverse? The only issue I can see is the reduced eyelet material to solder to.
- [18:29]
Skip Simmons
Wonder why reversing it would mean there's reduced eyelet material. Yeah, you know, you could do any kind of a mirror image or anything. The important thing in layout is layout. You that guitar signal better go right to that tube that it goes to first, not way over there. And it better not have like wall voltage near it or it'll. Huh. Right. If you start looking at stuff, you'll see the AC comes into the amp right by the power transformer and the filter caps and all that stuff. And it's over on one side and at the other side of the amp physically is where all the signal comes in. Because those two things like to argue with each other. Layout's really important. You know, you can move a wire just an inch or two sometimes and cure a problem.
- [19:17]
Jason
Bob concludes with natural year round lemonade recipe. 5 lemons 3 quarter cup of raw honey and a gallon of water. Fill the pot with three quarters of a gallon of water. Cut the lemons in half. Throw in a pot. No squeeze, no effort. While warming. Add raw honey. Remove from heat as soon as a boil starts. Place in the fridge to cool. Filter from pot into gallon jug and add water to fill the gallon. Pulp will be present. Adjust next batch to taste. That's from Bob and Bismarck.
- [19:49]
Skip Simmons
I'm loving that. Bob and Bismarck, where they had to make sod houses when they moved out there. Pioneer days. Because it was so cold. There's just. That's just Missouri. The Missouri goes up there. Wow. So you get to pull lemons, cook them a bit. Honey, adjust I. That sounds pretty dang easy.
- [20:12]
Jason
Yeah.
- [20:13]
Skip Simmons
Yeah, I'm liking that. Thank you for that.
- [20:16]
Jason
You can be a part of the show, folks. Just send us your question to podcast.
- [20:19]
Skip Simmons
Fretboardjournal.Com Speaking of falcons, anybody has a Falcon that the reverb doesn't work and they can't figure out why? I've seen two in the last month where the Reverb transformer has an open secondary. Transformers usually have open primaries. That's what happens. And I've replaced quite a few Gibson Falcon Reverb transformers because they have an open primary but an open secondary. I don't want to admit how long I fiddled with that amp trying to figure out why the reverb didn't work. And then when the second one happened, I was a little bit faster. But it's really odd. So disconnect the tank, of course, because it's in parallel with the secondary. Put an oh meter on that thing and make sure it's. It's got continuity because I've seen two that didn't recently and that means it could be an issue manufacturing thing. And we once had a sponsor that makes Transformers Sour Sound.
- [21:23]
Jason
Oh, they were never a sponsor. They were just a guest. Yes.
- [21:26]
Skip Simmons
Oh, they were just a guest. Well, somebody who listens to the podcast, I think. I'm thinking Sour Sound. I think there's only one replacement Falcon Reverb Transformer available and they work and everything, but they're not especially groovy looking or affordable. So if Sour Sound is looking for something to do, that'd be something that I think we're probably gonna need.
- [21:56]
Jonathan Stout
It's.
- [21:57]
Skip Simmons
It's different than a Fender, so it's not out there, it's not available, and it's a pain in the neck to change because it's riveted on. Thank you, Gibson. So you gotta like drill off the rivets and. But if I start seeing that many, it's going to be an issue for other Falconistas as well. Falconistas or eastos.
- [22:20]
Jason
This next voice memo came from Ozzy. I don't know where Ozzy lives.
- [22:26]
Ozzy
Hi Skip, Jason, this is Ozzy from sf. Hope you're both doing well. I have a couple of questions about capacitors and filter caps. And then I also have a recommendation for a couple cool YouTube videos. First, skip, what do you do if you need to replace an original component in an amp that is a different value than what's on the schematic? For example, I have a friend who has an original 1963 Deluxe 6G3. The preamp bypass capacitors on the schematic are 25 microfarad 25 volt capacitors. Pretty typical for a Fender. But the ones in this amp are 100 microfarad 25 volts. You know, they're the big paper ones. Nothing in this amp looks like it's ever been changed. And if you were going to replace those bypass caps, would you go with the values in the amp or would you go with what's on the schematic? And similarly, I recently bought a 1964 Princeton 62 little tuxedo one. And it also appears to be pretty original inside. But as I was looking at the just sort of comparing the amp with the schematics, I noticed that the can on mine are all 20, 20, 20. It's a 20, 2020 microfarad can. But on the schematic it says it should be a 30, 30, 30 and it doesn't look like it's ever been changed. And if you were ever going to replace that cap, that can, would you use a 30, 30, 30 or would you use a 20, 2020? And what difference would that make? And this sort of ties into. My next question is I recently ordered some custom can capacitors from Hayseed Ham Fest because they will make up the 1 inch 3 tap cans that you can use. And I want to put them in my silver tone 1482. I have a couple of those. And the Silvertone 1482 is a 20105 microfarad can. Should I just stick with those original values or would it make a difference if I were to increase them slightly to say 2010? Just what would you recommend and what difference would it make if I did? Then finally, I want to recommend Steve Albini's gear dork videos on YouTube.
- [24:46]
Jason
They're really great.
- [24:47]
Ozzy
I actually Started watching those shortly before he died. And there's two in particular where he talks about. One is a amp called the garnet BTO special. And then another one is a SAM amp, BAC40. And the garnet has a weird tone circuit. It's got a tremo called a light show and it's got a built in fuzz circuit. The SAM amp is cool because it has this attenuator that uses a light bulb limiter and it grows brighter, glows brighter as you decrease the power. And Albini does a really good job explaining these amps. He gets into the technical stuff. He also provides some background, for example, on Garnet. And he's pretty funny and I really was starting to really get into him and then all of a sudden he's gone. So I did want to give him a shout out and also say, rest in peace, he will be missed. Anyway, take care of both of you. I hope you're doing well and thanks for keeping this podcast going.
- [25:43]
Skip Simmons
Bye. And that's. I guess that's why we have to, because there's super nerds like that guy, of course. But what about 5 microfarad? What if I change it to 10 microfarad? What could happen? Well, I bet you some people I know already know what my ultimate answer is going to be. These are real Fender amps. You better prove to me that this capacitor is bad before you have to start asking me what you should replace it with. Right. That's just. You're getting way ahead of yourself there. Right. Don't replace it is the ultimate answer unless you can say it's bad. Now, variations on Fender parts schematic versus the actual amp. Not, I wouldn't say typical, but not, not uncommon in the Brown era. 60, 61, 62, 63. And I've seen, I've seen that exact thing he's talking about where instead of the classic 25 volt little bypass caps in an amp, they're 100 microfarad. I've seen 250s too. First I wouldn't change it, but if I had to change it or if it was gone, I just use the regular value that the schematic says. I would suggest that the reason why it was different was they just ran out one day and stuck those things in there. Values of electrolytics, I would never change them much, but I don't think you're going to be able to hear a whole lot of difference if, if they just get them changed a little. He brought up Hayseed Ham Fest pretty Cool name. They make the 1 inch diameter twist lock cans that our sponsors don't. They only make the four. The four twist ones. They make these little three twist ones, but they're not made the same. They're actually individual capacitors just carefully tucked into these little tubes and mounting things that the guy makes. And they're pretty, pretty expensive, but they work. And he's talking about using one in a silver tone 1480, one of those twin 12s. And yes, there's a three section two section one buried inside of those things. Again, if it passed an ESR test, I probably wouldn't change it unless the amp was humming or something. But if you had to get in there, that would be the part to use. And I never use a 5. I would never go below 10. So is 2010 5? I just get 2010 10. And you know, you don't want to double the capacitance. If you take a classic Fender and start putting like 100 microfarads in the filter caps and stuff, it'll start to affect the tone. And I don't think you'd want to change the sound of a good amp, so don't.
- [28:37]
Jason
Okay.
- [28:38]
Skip Simmons
And I won't watch his YouTube thing, but that's interesting. I'm familiar with the first amp, but I don't know about the one with the light bulb attenuator. That's pretty far crowd.
- [28:47]
Jason
Yeah, I'll include links to both of those in the show notes.
- [28:52]
Skip Simmons
Our crowd will be. Will be building one of those tonight.
- [28:55]
Jason
Oh, yeah? Yeah. And speaking of our crowd, earlier this week I was lucky enough to have a visitor to the Fretboard Journal guitarist Jonathan Stout. He's been on the Fretboard Journal podcast before. It turns out he listens to this very show and he has just logged in and he has some questions for you. Skip, you may have some questions for him. Jonathan's a very unique guy. A lawyer turned jazz guitarist. Plays guitar for competitive dances all around the world with the Campus 5 band that he leads. Skip, meet Jonathan.
- [29:31]
Skip Simmons
Jonathan, good to have you.
- [29:34]
Jonathan Stout
A pleasure to be here.
- [29:35]
Skip Simmons
You know a musician. Yeah.
- [29:37]
Jonathan Stout
When I get to listen to this podcast, you never think you're going to be on it.
- [29:40]
Skip Simmons
And here I am.
- [29:40]
Jonathan Stout
What a. What a.
- [29:41]
Skip Simmons
Aren't you supposed to be a guitar player first and then a lawyer? Come on.
- [29:45]
Jonathan Stout
Chronologically that was correct. And. But one paid the bills more until recently, so.
- [29:53]
Skip Simmons
Well, I'm here for you. You got to. You've listened to the podcast and you got a question. I'll start with I'll start with. So you drag around really ancient gear or do you play? Do you use old amps at all or. Or amps at all?
- [30:07]
Jonathan Stout
So when I have gigs at home and you know, it's practical, I dragged my 1939. Eh. 185. That says H150 on the head. But it's the two. The two EQ knob one.
- [30:22]
Skip Simmons
I hate those. Oh, no. As a mechanic. But no, that's, that's, that's okay. So you're seriously committed. All right.
- [30:30]
Jonathan Stout
I mean, you know, but that's, that's what I've got like higher profile gigs at home where, you know, load in is kind of assured and it's, you know, it's not like just the normal schlep. And you know, I, I love playing my 1937 ES150 into that. And you know, I, I just love that sound. And so much of, so much of my whole approach to music is if somebody else were actually still doing it, I wouldn't have a job. You know, the things I.
- [31:05]
Skip Simmons
There's not too many people carrying that thing. Particular torch that you're carrying. But that's, but that's, but that's super cool, man.
- [31:12]
Jonathan Stout
Yeah, I mean, and that, that's, that's, you know, how you find a niche sometimes, you know, because there's so many great guitar players who will be a better musician than I'll ever be. They're already a better musician than I'll ever be one day. But, you know, they're more into West Montgomery and that's not exactly dance band music. And so, you know, Charlie Christian really is. So I love that sound. But when I'm, when I do have to schlep, I started using vintage 47amps and they started out doing kind of Valco national, you know, inspired by those kind of early amps, kind of late 40s, 50s, and they modified one to make it more like a 185. It's not, it's not really a clone.
- [31:55]
Skip Simmons
Or anything, but we know them, we know them. Those guys have always had a very nice price point and excellent build quality. He was one of the first to buy affordable but vintage tubes to put in his amps. A lot of them have old octals from the 40s and 50s in them. And they're cool and he uses cool circuits. And I see them a lot. They moved, but they were close. They were more like Northern California for a while. Now they're Southern California, but I'm familiar with those. And they got a Groovy look and they're sturdy and you can get a good tone off of that thing, right?
- [32:28]
Jonathan Stout
Yeah. And I've used those a bunch. And I'm good friends with Steve, who has the company now. And I exchanged some emails with David way back when.
- [32:39]
Skip Simmons
David, right. Yeah.
- [32:40]
Jonathan Stout
But what I find myself using most of the time is I had Steve build me a cab that's just a one by 12 and it looks like square, like an ES150 or eh, 150. And then I have a pedal that my friend Jason Koons, who's a great luvier and builder out of, I believe, Tulsa or Norman, Oklahoma, great guitar player. I met him at Matt Monastery's Red Hot Strings camp last year. We had a great hang. He's somebody that you can just call on the phone and talk to. He's such a good dude. But he built a little 150 in a pedal circuit. And so I take that preamp and I just use a little, you know, quilter 101 head.
- [33:27]
Skip Simmons
I was waiting for that. I almost said culture five minutes ago, but keep going.
- [33:31]
Jonathan Stout
Well, the funny thing is I have a lot of questions for you about feel coil speakers and some stuff like that. And those are the nitty gritty things that kind of make those amps really specific. But there's something about getting the sound close enough using that pedal that I can run it through this other stuff. And it sounds enough like the sound that I want and feels enough like it that I could do my job. And it's not the same, but, you know, it makes me feel like I'm not playing through some other kind of amp that isn't the thing that I want. And it's incredibly lightweight. I can stuff the head in the back of the cab. And so I have one thing to carry, and I'm very happy with that. But I do still love the the using the vintage 47amps as well. And I love using the real thing when I can.
- [34:27]
Skip Simmons
Welcome to the world of compromise that a working dog. Most of the people that we're yakking with now, although you do have a pretty close to the overpass sound going. There are those cars going by.
- [34:39]
Jonathan Stout
I'm so sorry. The one day that I have I had to go to court this week was today. And so I found a coffee shop because I couldn't get good WI FI anywhere near it.
- [34:51]
Skip Simmons
And it's a compromise, but most of these listeners, they get to spend all afternoon geeking around and using whatever trippy old stuff and trying a bunch of stuff. But pros, they go, yeah, it's fun to use at home, but when it gets down to the practicality of it, and not to say I've made some preamps and one of the things is a small, really light, you know, amp. And just how much of the good sort of tube amp sound can you contribute with something smaller? So what's the tube? Did the. Does the thing plug into the wall? Your. Your gizmo, the preamp.
- [35:32]
Jonathan Stout
It's, it's, it's just a pedal, so it's, it's transistorized.
- [35:36]
Skip Simmons
Okay, so. Okay, got it. Wow, that's impressive.
- [35:40]
Jonathan Stout
I mean, it gets the vibe and the thing that I find. So this is the first sort of big picture question I have for you. I have this kind of theory of the evolution of amplifiers that they were really low fi at first because that was the best they could do. And the frequency response on the low end, you know, it just falls off it shelves at either end. And they just couldn't get the high highs or the low lows. And that sort of.
- [36:05]
Skip Simmons
I already disagree with that. But keep going, but keep going.
- [36:08]
Jonathan Stout
No, no, no, that's. That's why I'm here. I want to be disabused of this notion because I found, like, playing into like black panel amps, that there's so much more bass and sustain that sort of becomes uncontrollable. And then some of the highs sound very shrill to me. And so again, this is just my notion that, like, you know, somebody like Leo Fender, who really just was trying to make a cleaner and cleaner amplifier, as those successive generations, they just kind of get more hi fi and more clean and they each have their own little magic. But what I love about those old octalamps is, you know, the Charlie Christian kind of vibe of having a little bit of grind, but not too much because it's not Junior Barnard.
- [36:51]
Skip Simmons
It's not T Bone Walker Junior Barnard. That's a good reference.
- [36:56]
Jonathan Stout
That's good stuff. But the funny thing, to me, Junior Bernard sounds like he's doing the same thing as Charlie Christian, except his volume knob on his guitar is all the way up and he's sort of hitting the front end of that amp hard, whereas Charlie Christian's kind of got it backed off. So the volume knob ends up acting a little bit like a tone capacitor and just pulling a little bit of the highs off. And I've done some. I did a YouTube video where I played either into the vintage 47 or my real one. I can't remember, but where I did the tone at the volume at 25% and then rolled the volume knob on the guitar, I mean up to 50 and then up to 75 and 100. It was fascinating how different the tone of the guitar was coming through the amp. But so I, I feel like Junior Bernard was probably playing pretty much the same gear, especially at first he just had the volume knob on the guitar cranked and it was like way twangier.
- [37:49]
Skip Simmons
And way, you know, I might add. He had Fenders. And I don't know about Charlie Christian never having a tweed Fender.
- [37:56]
Jonathan Stout
No, no, I.
- [37:58]
Skip Simmons
They're brighter and louder. So you got some, you got some truth in there. Absolutely. But the thing you got to remember is by the mid to late 40s, they had some high five stuff, baby. I mean, let's just, let's quit talking about guitar amps and let's just talk about audio, right? They had you. They had some beautiful, very high fidelity music capable, you know, by the 40s and in. And in the 40s, late 40s, it became kind of a hobby thing and hi Fi started taking off. Now in the guitar world, I think that what people like Leo did and Gibson, they started with basic audio circuits that started from what pa because that's the first use of audio. And those amps were very full. You know, they weren't EQ'd. They were just pretty natural sounding. Now if you have tiny little transformers and it's a budget amp, even if it's in the 30s, you're going to have a limited frequency response. And if you have nice quality amp, big beefy transformers, then you're going to have good frequency response, even if it's in the 40s, which they started making some really good hi Fi by then. I think what Fender did and Marshall did, they got the musicians and they just kept saying, no, more of this, more of this. And what they were trying for is a sound that cuts through a group and to someone sitting at home and playing it today, a classic Fender amp, like a deluxe reverb. If you don't have a little of that reverb on, oh, it's awfully detailed. Especially if you can't play for crap because there it is right there in front of you, right? Whereas the old circuits are just a little more warm and a little more full in the middle and not quite. I think he was really eqing stuff to make it sound better in a band. And unfortunately a lot of people that listen to us, they don't really ever get a chance to do that. And that's why small, low powered, trippy things like Gibson Falcons and stuff are so popular, because they give you a little bit. A little bit of to hide behind and not quite so clear and detailed as a later amp would be.
- [40:26]
Jonathan Stout
I play, you know, half the time, I play acoustic arch tops that I. I use a little lavalier mic and just run into the pa. What a man. Difference. The difference between a guitar, it sounds good by itself, and the difference between an acoustic guitar that sounds really good in a group is funny because I've got this blonde 39L5 that I play most of the time, and when I listen to it by itself, sometimes I'm like, oh, that's a little spiky. Oh, that's got a real honky mid range. But, like, those are exactly the frequencies that cut through. And that thing of, like, how it fits in the context is always important. And yeah, it's tough if you just. If all you're gonna do is listen to it at home, it's a different job.
- [41:04]
Skip Simmons
All right, question. I'm ready.
- [41:08]
Jonathan Stout
Next question.
- [41:09]
Skip Simmons
Jason's given up on running this show.
- [41:12]
Jason
I want to hear Jonathan talk about playing at Knott's Berry Farm all summer long. But let's hear his amp question first.
- [41:18]
Skip Simmons
That's a gig.
- [41:20]
Jonathan Stout
Oh, wow. I posted that literally before I logged on.
- [41:22]
Skip Simmons
Good job.
- [41:23]
Marty
Thanks.
- [41:25]
Jonathan Stout
Well, my other question that I have so many questions about how the fact that the amp that I love that I want to play through all the time, it's just heavy and old and slightly fragile. It's got this field coil speaker in it, and there's no replica of those field coil speakers that I'm aware of. And please, if you have one, let me know. But I know there's something there, and I would love to know what is it about that field coil speaker that responds differently? Does the response of the electromagnet change as the signal changes? Like, is it dynamic in that way? I want to know all about field coils and why they sound different than every time I play a replica that has a permanent magnet speed.
- [42:14]
Skip Simmons
You gonna handle this one, Jason?
- [42:16]
Jason
I'll let you do it.
- [42:18]
Skip Simmons
Do you have Larry Chung on the bat phone?
- [42:21]
Jason
I don't. I'm sorry.
- [42:22]
Skip Simmons
Damn. I can only give you a primitive thing, which is in the old days, they did magnet material that could make a strong, strong magnet was so expensive that it was cheaper to make a transformer that ran a coil of wire with a bunch of electricity in it to create an electromagnet. And all speakers all good speakers were feel coil or electromagnet all through the 20s and 30s and stuff. Right. And the reason why they switched over was Cha Ching, of course. Cost. Right. Really. And field coils have never been popular. They. They're not popular now unless they work because most people aren't into that pre war thing. And if they're blown, then it's a recone situation. It's tricky to put a regular speaker in an amp that was designed for a fuel coil speaker in a lot of cases. Right. Because that field coil is part of the power supply. It acts like a choke in the power supply. So why does a field coil sound different? I don't know. I don't know. But they're not that hard to find. There's more. You could get another one is the choke.
- [43:46]
Jonathan Stout
Does it. Does the effect of it being a choke, does that vary at all as you're playing it? As the.
- [43:51]
Skip Simmons
It kind of would if. I mean, the voltages that are going on inside of a choke would potentially vary, especially if you started driving the primitive old amp even, you know, louder than they thought you were going to. Okay, how about Bill Kernard? Is he on the bat phone? There's definitely going to be some sort of synergy going on because the magnet could change, right? Because the current and voltage going through it could change. How about that?
- [44:23]
Jonathan Stout
Yeah.
- [44:24]
Skip Simmons
Are we agreed on that? I mean, I, I feel.
- [44:28]
Jonathan Stout
I feel like. I feel like that's the thing I've been getting. But I don't have. I'm not an. You know, I don't have enough electrical engineering knowledge to really do.
- [44:41]
Skip Simmons
And there's also quality. There's big old heavy bruisers that were made for a lot of wattage and then there's cheap junky ones that they put in radios. And there's a common one that's used In a Hammond M3 early spin it Hammond organs that you can't get any money for. And they're a beautiful 285 Rola feel coil 12. Larry Chung sent me one of those with a special plug on the end so people could send me their Charlie Christian amps and I. They wouldn't have to send me the speaker. In other words, it's a test cab for fuel coil amps and they work and sound good and you can get those reconed. There are trippy gurus that require you to, like, sign a blood oath, but the guy at Weber Speakers has done a beautiful job on a lot of pre war feel coils for me with no drama.
- [45:30]
Jonathan Stout
Mine got Reconed by Orange county probably 15 years ago.
- [45:34]
Skip Simmons
It's fine. It'll last forever. Right.
- [45:37]
Jonathan Stout
But one of those roll is out of us. Out of a M3 spinet that's essentially the same specs. Enough.
- [45:46]
Skip Simmons
Yeah. That's cool. Oh, yeah. It would go right in there. And if you really wanted to get weird, you could build yourself a little power supply for it and have an extension cabinet that was a feel coil.
- [45:55]
Jonathan Stout
Well, that and that. That's funny because that's my third question.
- [45:59]
Skip Simmons
That's funny.
- [46:01]
Jonathan Stout
No, no, you have no idea.
- [46:02]
Skip Simmons
This is.
- [46:02]
Jonathan Stout
I've been. When Jason mentioned that this was a possibility, I'm so excited because I get my personal questions answered by the Skip seminar. This is the best. This is the best.
- [46:11]
Skip Simmons
Uh, is this guy single? Uh, that's when I ask you that. When I ask you that. That's. That's the alarm bell going off. Like, how many Strats did you say you had?
- [46:23]
Jonathan Stout
I have no Strats. I have no Strats.
- [46:27]
Jason
No.
- [46:27]
Jonathan Stout
But wow, that's fascinating to know that one of those would work. Because if I can get somebody that wants to try and build a replica circuit that requires a field coil, I've been always sort of like, well, what would I even put in it? So knowing that one of those is a good candidate, I mean, I'll probably call Steve Woolley when we get off this call. They'll be like, all right, we've got a new project.
- [46:49]
Skip Simmons
Oh, don't make that one, fools. Make the easy one. You know, I've made several, eh, 150 clones, basically. But I don't set them up for field coils because Those guys had, eh, 150s and they just wanted a head that they could use with any cabinet. Right. And I'm sure that a field coil would sound different, but both of those guys said, oh, yes, I got. Right in the ballpark. But you want a 6L6 one. Not. Not one of those, eh, 185 ones. I would suggest pretty complicated. Yours might even have weird power tubes. Might have those six N6s we were talking about.
- [47:26]
Jonathan Stout
No, yeah, I've got. I've got the one with six L6s. I think it's the type 3 one.
- [47:31]
Skip Simmons
Right.
- [47:32]
Jonathan Stout
But you know, I think because I'm buddies with Steve, he might be up for a project. And that was always the question is, what speaker? So my last question is that echo speaker jack, I've always wanted to know was that just a permanent magnet speaker in a cab? And they just. Because it was an extension cab they would spend the money for a heavier permanent magnet speaker. Or was there some kind of four conductor thing going on that, that was also an electromagnet?
- [48:06]
Skip Simmons
I think if we looked at the schematic, we would see that the echo speaker jack is really just another voice is connected to the voice coil of the internal speaker. Right. In other words, it's a way that you could plug in just a 2, 2 conductor cord and have a small or permanent magnet extension cabinet. Has anybody ever seen a factory one of those?
- [48:36]
Jonathan Stout
There was one on ebay and I did not get it.
- [48:40]
Skip Simmons
What was, what was in it?
- [48:41]
Jonathan Stout
I don't know. I mean, I just, it was the original, whatever the original speaker was. But like the picks weren't good enough.
- [48:47]
Skip Simmons
That I could tell.
- [48:48]
Jonathan Stout
And then I didn't, I didn't win.
- [48:50]
Skip Simmons
I tried. I don't think it was a fuel coil. Right. There's, there are, there's an alternate technique. And that is one thing Fender did in like 1949, 1950. They'd put a field coil speaker in like a tweed Pro, but they didn't use the field as part of the power supply. Believe it or not. One end is connected to B and one goes to ground. And a cabinet like that could be rigged up, but the true blues would get a 5y3 and some filter caps and make a little power supply that powers the field coil.
- [49:30]
Jonathan Stout
That's awesome. Well, I, I, I'm happy with the little pedal and you know, ridiculous.
- [49:37]
Skip Simmons
That's a different thing. That's. We're talking about two different things now. One exactly is something you can grab and make a few bucks. And the other is just some crazy whacked out thing you want to do for fun.
- [49:48]
Jonathan Stout
Well, exactly. So I've got something that works, that I can schlep around, that gets close enough that I can play my Charlie Christian licks and my swing band and it sounds the part.
- [49:59]
Skip Simmons
I'm impressed with your dude. I can't do that. I could make you a preamp. That was a Charlie Christian with a tube and everything. That's what I do. But to be able to, to be able to translate that into just 9 volts and transistors and stuff. That guy's got some skills.
- [50:16]
Jonathan Stout
He's a solid luthier too. But my friends, Nick Rossi and I think Chris Wilkinson.
- [50:23]
Skip Simmons
Rossi, I should have known you'd know him.
- [50:24]
Jonathan Stout
I know he's a, he's a dear friend. And Chris Wilkinson and Sacramento does.
- [50:29]
Skip Simmons
He has the Charlie Christian head. Chris Wilkinson, he's one of the guys I Built a clone for. Yeah.
- [50:34]
Jonathan Stout
And that's why I've heard such good things and figured you would have some answers for my burning Charlie Christian amp questions. So I'm so grateful.
- [50:46]
Skip Simmons
Is that it?
- [50:47]
Jonathan Stout
I mean, that's a lot of super nerdery questions. I mean, if Jason wants to talk about Knott's Berry Farm, I'm happy to apply.
- [50:54]
Jason
I mean, I kind of do. How long have you been doing that?
- [50:57]
Skip Simmons
They paid. That's the thing. They paid. Like Disneyland.
- [51:01]
Jonathan Stout
It's great. Well, no, you know what? We have a friend who's a swing dancer who's a fan of ours and he used to work at Disney and he moved over to Knott's Berry Farm and he's with entertainment and they do big summer entertainment festivals. And so there's a pop rock cover band on one stage. There's a bluegrass band over here. And so one night a week they have a swing band. And so we're gonna be doing pretty much every Sunday. There's like two Sundays that we're out of town. Cause we're gonna go to Korea to play a gig. But yeah, it's funny because that's a backline gig and I do enough fly out stuff that like, you know, it's really hard to like bring an EH185 on the road, especially if you're flying. So the fact that I've got this little pedal and then I show up and there's. Oh, it's a hot rod deluxe. That's great. I'll just bypass the preamp and go straight into the power section using the effects return. And it's, you know. Great.
- [51:58]
Skip Simmons
Close enough. That's your. Yes, I knew all that. That's why I make, that's why I, I, I've been making a little preamps like that for people that travel where you can just get. No, it's not better than anything, but it's a lot better than nothing. And it's only this big, right? And so I say great. And again I say anybody that can take something that's made out of tubes and transformers and all this voltage and, and get, and make that with a 9 volt battery and brand new transistors and stuff. Whoa, that's impressive.
- [52:32]
Jonathan Stout
Well, you know, I, I think that you know, with all of these things and you know, whether, whatever the sound you're going for and whatever they, the people that made it with, you know, there's a way to do it that's literally the exact way. And there's all of these idiosyncrasies like, if you're going for the woman tone, you know, you got to factor in the room, the micing, and don't say that again ever. I thought that's what it was called. That's not my thing, so don't worry about it. But whatever tone it is, you know, like, there's all these idiosyncrasies to it about the room and the way it was recorded. And so when you're trying to kind of get in that ballpark, you're already not necessarily going to be able to replicate all those things. So you kind of got to find your own little workarounds for that stuff. And it's great to have something that's close enough or gets you in the ballpark or especially as a player, I need it to feel enough like it's supposed to feel like that I can have it. You know, the feedback that I get from it feels right. And so. But, you know, if you do. If you take the Pepsi Challenge and just ab them, like, sure. It's not. It's never exactly the same, and then. But then you put it in the mix, and it starts to be a little bit harder to tell which one's which. And then, you know, then you factor in the schlep and the frat, the fragileness and stuff, and then you go, okay, yeah, I could play through a pedal into a backline amp and it'll work. But then again, there are these huge rock stars that go with modeling or whatever, and then there's other huge rock stars that, because they have a fleet of trucks, they bring all of their vintage stuff. And until somebody wants to pay me what Jason Isbell earned so that he can run that giant crew of people that bring all his fancy stuff on the the road, like, I think this works for me, but if I could, I would love to have the real thing. It'd be awesome.
- [54:18]
Skip Simmons
What's the real thing?
- [54:19]
Jonathan Stout
Like having a real 185 dragged around for me in a truck that's. In a crate that, you know.
- [54:25]
Skip Simmons
On a velvet cushion. Yeah.
- [54:27]
Jonathan Stout
And someone to sitting. Sit there to lovingly have a stack of 6L 6s and 6N 7s and the ones with the thing on the top. And, you know, if anything ever happens, they've just got piles and a, you know, in a perfectly foamed cabinet that has all isolated so that if anything ever goes wrong, they can go, oh, I've got it. Here you go.
- [54:47]
Skip Simmons
Well, you only have to go to about 1950, and you by then can buy an amp that is absolutely as rugged and durable as anything you could ever buy today or yesterday or any time, and extremely serviceable and simple.
- [55:02]
Jonathan Stout
I do keep threatening to experiment with a. Like a. A 5e5e3 is the TV front deluxe, right?
- [55:09]
Skip Simmons
You need a tweed Pro. That's the one. Okay. Yeah, but that's a 15, like a TV front pro.
- [55:15]
Jonathan Stout
That's not a 15 inch speaker.
- [55:17]
Skip Simmons
Yes.
- [55:17]
Jonathan Stout
Yeah, that might. That might be too much bass for me. I don't know if I can handle it. I don't know if I'm player enough.
- [55:23]
Skip Simmons
I don't know if I can handle it. This guy was a lawyer, Jason.
- [55:28]
Jason
I think he still is. I think he's. What's your court case today?
- [55:31]
Jonathan Stout
Oh, I just was covering a court case for a friend of mine. I think it was the lawyer client privilege prevented me from discussing what the matter was. But, you know, I just made a quick appearance, picked up some discovery, and popped off to this coffee shop so I could take this call.
- [55:46]
Skip Simmons
There you go. This guy can lay it out, don't you think, Jason?
- [55:49]
Jason
I mean, that's the damp thing. He's a lawyer. He's playing Knott's Berry Farm. I mean, there's a lot of Venn diagrams overlapping here.
- [55:57]
Skip Simmons
Are you running out of time, Jason?
- [55:59]
Jason
I'm not running out of time yet. Are you?
- [56:01]
Skip Simmons
Oh, no, I'm fine. I think we're approaching the hour mark.
- [56:05]
Jason
It's billable hours.
- [56:06]
Skip Simmons
Oh, yeah.
- [56:07]
Jonathan Stout
I'm doing this for fun. Please. No, the thing that I just did, that was really cool because Knott's Berry Farm is fun and we'll be there all summer. So if any regular folks want to come by, that's great. But I was just at Matt Monastery's Red Hot Strings camp, and what was really cool was Whit Smith was there.
- [56:24]
Skip Simmons
And I'm a huge.
- [56:24]
Jonathan Stout
Such a huge fan of his. And that's somebody that does have to bring his own amp because he was not. He's not happy with the other alternatives.
- [56:33]
Skip Simmons
I think that amp for him, once I took it to him at his hotel, he was appreciative.
- [56:39]
Jonathan Stout
Of course he was. And, you know, now. Now he's got like two different pedals because just in case he's got to tune the EQ a little bit with the room, you know, because that's one of the other things is this character. When you're playing live, one of the characters nobody ever talks about is, well, what does the room sound like? And the EQ curve of the room is like, always the Stage, sorry. There's a truck backing up 10ft away from.
- [57:04]
Skip Simmons
Everybody knows that. Right. That's. The good musicians is they don't just set the thing like they had it at home. They go to wherever on a patio, in a room, in a gymnasium. And you know how to get the sound the best you can right then right there with the people that you got. And that's. That's what makes. That's one of the things that makes a good musician. Everybody knows somebody who can play guitar, but they can't do that.
- [57:28]
Jonathan Stout
Well, I try to do it. I don't know if I'm always finding the frequency.
- [57:33]
Skip Simmons
I'm sure you do.
- [57:33]
Jonathan Stout
It was doing something that I got. I also figured out was a good sort of Swiss army knife just for situations. Because, you know, you spend the money on a really great amp and you're really happy with it, and then the room just sounds weird. And for whatever reason, the sweep of those particular EQ knobs on that amp may not get the thing you need.
- [57:53]
Marty
And I saw it on a channel from.
- [57:55]
Jonathan Stout
On the YouTube thing from Tim, the studio guy lives in LA. He's on a million studio things. But anyway, he was saying, oh, the great Swiss army knife of the recording studio is embossed GE7 or whatever. He cue pedal. Because you can always just find something close enough and do it. So I always have one of those stashed away at home that I know if I've got a gig where it's going to be a little funky, I can just throw that in the bag. And then there's something that I need to just shape slightly. That's sort of another little dirty little secret trick. That isn't the cool thing of having a rad vintage amp. But, like, sometimes you just need to nip something in the bud. You get a little too much bass from the stage. Just pull that one slider down and you can. Now, it won't get too woofy or it won't get too sustaining or whatever.
- [58:45]
Skip Simmons
Love it.
- [58:46]
Jonathan Stout
I also have hot takes on hot sauce, if you want to get into that.
- [58:49]
Jason
Oh, well, let's end on that. Go for it.
- [58:52]
Jonathan Stout
Oh. I'm a native Southern Californian, and so like all native Southern Californians, we presume our Mexican food is somehow superior to everyone else's. Even though this isn't Mexico, or it was at one point, but isn't anymore. But I just want to put a plug in. I love El Pato sauce. Put that on my tamales. It's great. My favorite, just bottled hot sauce. For anything is this one called Marie Sharps. It's from Belize and, like, in a Tabasco type of sauce. I think it's the best one out there. So hopefully somebody mentioned on the show before.
- [59:25]
Jason
Jonathan.
- [59:26]
Jonathan Stout
Oh, I'm so sorry. Has anyone turned it into a petal yet?
- [59:30]
Skip Simmons
No. Doesn't that have a little wooden cap on the top?
- [59:34]
Jason
No, that's the other one. Or maybe Marie Sharps does.
- [59:37]
Skip Simmons
No, those are good.
- [59:39]
Jonathan Stout
Yeah, it's good stuff. Well, as long as people already know, then the work has been done. You're doing God's work getting the good hot sauce out there to the people.
- [59:46]
Skip Simmons
So awesome listener Jeff Schick sent me a pizza stone to put in the oven. Right. Which I've never had. And of course, he's one of the guys that knew about the Don Pepino pizza sauce, which is just a solid favorite. Everyone should have a few cans of that around. So I'm looking forward to using the actual pizza stone and then the wooden paddle thing to see if I can kick up the homemade pizza even higher. And he figured out that the pizza roundup by my house sells dough, which I had no idea they did. So if you really want to splurge, you go over there and get some fresh dough and. Oh, it's going to be good. Yeah.
- [60:24]
Jonathan Stout
Have you, have you done the. Have you heard the trick? You put the pizza stone at the top rack and then also use the broiler so you can get the thing. If you want to make like a Neapolitan style pizza, you can get the thing. Won't be 900 degrees like the real thing, but it'll get up there.
- [60:40]
Skip Simmons
Shut up. Now. He's a New York lawyer.
- [60:45]
Jonathan Stout
No, my mother was born in Naples. That's the birthplace of pizza. And all Italian people are as opinionated about everything as they could be about anything. And the only acceptable way is this one way that your nonna does it and your nonna's wrong and she's a heretic. And so, like, that's just what I.
- [61:00]
Skip Simmons
Grew up with, man, that makes perfect sense. What about putting the cheese down first in, like, slabs and then putting the sauce on top?
- [61:08]
Jonathan Stout
I. I am, I am fully accepting of alternative pizza styles as long as country and western.
- [61:15]
Skip Simmons
I like them both.
- [61:16]
Jonathan Stout
We have both kinds of music. Exactly.
- [61:17]
Skip Simmons
Yeah. I love it. All right. Okay, Jason, I know you gotta go pretty soon. You probably have some other stuff we have to do, but this guy.
- [61:25]
Jason
All right, Jonathan, thanks for joining us, everybody. Go see him at Knott's Berry Farm or wherever Else, I mean, just follow Jonathan on Campus5 on Instagram.
- [61:34]
Jonathan Stout
Yeah. I might somehow be in Chicago in the fall.
- [61:38]
Jason
Oh, yeah. Fretboard Summit. Jonathan's coming to the Fretboard Summit. Come hang out with him and I and everyone else.
- [61:46]
Jonathan Stout
Looking forward to it.
- [61:47]
Jason
Yeah. All right. Thanks, Jonathan.
- [61:51]
Jonathan Stout
Thank you so much.
- [61:51]
Skip Simmons
Cheers. Wow. There you go. And how did you meet this guy?
- [61:59]
Jason
Oh, I mean, Jonathan has been to the Fretboard Journal. We've done some video shoots with him.
- [62:04]
Skip Simmons
We've.
- [62:05]
Jason
He's great.
- [62:05]
Skip Simmons
Yeah, you've been around a lot. Well, that was fun.
- [62:08]
Jason
Yeah.
- [62:08]
Skip Simmons
Yeah, that was definitely fun. He could definitely lay it out, make sure that, you know, you knew what he was talking about.
- [62:16]
Jason
Oh, yeah, he's fantastic.
- [62:19]
Skip Simmons
Excellent. Thanks. Jeff Shick for the Pizza Stone.
- [62:24]
Jason
Jeff Shik sent us a question. How about we do. For the people who've made it this far, how about we answer one or two more questions and then call it a day, if you're cool with that.
- [62:34]
Skip Simmons
I am fine. Except for every day in the morning around here, 6:00am you know, like an AM radio station from Sacramento basically, that, you know, has news and traffic and stuff like that. Right. So they do the traffic every 15 or 20 minutes. And while they do, they play this little instrumental section from Running on Empty. And right in the middle of it, Lindley goes in the way that only he could do it. And it's fairly recently that they've been doing that, but it makes me miss them, like every day. You hear that, that dude doing that little riff, just those little thing on the steel during that instrumental part with the piano and yeah, a lot of cool people that. Well, not to be morose, but definitely missed completely. Yes.
- [63:32]
Jason
Yeah.
- [63:33]
Skip Simmons
Now. Now that I didn't stop the show, but I sure slowed it down a little, right?
- [63:38]
Jason
It's okay. On a much more uplifting Jackson Brown note, if anybody out there hasn't heard it yet, we have a podcast called Steel hosted by Matt Perpick and he just interviewed Greg Leese and he did like a two hour long interview with Jackson Brown's one of Jackson Brown's current steel players. And it's a great one, one of the best interviews I think we've shared. All right, this. This question voice memo was sent to us as. You can send us one to podcastreportboardjournal.com this is from listener Don.
- [64:11]
Don
Hey, Skip and Jason. It's Don and Indy. Quite a few episodes ago, you mentioned the Ice Cube. And it reminded me that when I was, you know, very young and learning to play the electric guitar and had my first deluxe reverb. I saw an ad for one in the back of Guitar Player magazine. So I ordered it and. And I thought to myself, I. I wonder if I still have that thing. So I went and digging around and I found it and just wanted to share that. I know there was some discussion about what the resistance was on that thing and I. I measured it and it's 2.20k. But yeah, you stick it in the reverb in and outputs and then you've got a really interesting boost. If you turn it up, it really. It really makes the amp grindy. But the neat thing about it is you can set your amp for a little bit of a boost using the reverb control. And then you got the foot switch to turn it on and off. So if you're playing rhythm for a while and you want to have a little more volume for a solo, it's right at the touch of a foot switch. It's a pretty handy little, little tool. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know.
- [65:18]
Skip Simmons
Thanks. That's beautiful. If you can live without the reverb for 10 minutes, you can put 250k, 470k, even up to a 1 meg. And you could make it outboard by 2 with two RCA jacks and just a resistor between the two hots that you stick in. Because basically you're just going from the reverb into the reverb out and you're jumping that with a resistance. Normally that would be the tank. And when you just put a resistor in there, all the gain that's used in the circuit to drive sound through the tank is now gain and there's no reverb. And it is a pretty effective overdrive. And of course you can foot switch in and out because there's a reverb foot switch. It starts and stops the reverb circuit. And it never caught on because the reverb of a Fender amp with reverb is the best thing about it in a lot of ways. But still make one, right? You could open up the amp and just solder a little resistor right across those two RCA jacks right inside. If you were really like discreet. But it's pretty easy to just make like a little. Two RCA plugs is all you need and have a. Have your resistor soldered between the two hots and stick it into your amp and have some fun. Good one.
- [66:34]
Jason
Ice Cube Tim in Ojai Subject line Infamous non reverb Princeton Love A common question seems to be related to the lack of gain in the non reverb versions of 60s Fender amps. Why isn't the Princeton not as much fun as the Princeton reverb, etc. This isn't a question, but some insight from an owner of a 66 Princeton who loves the sound and simplicity. And to back Skip up on his comments, yes, there isn't much gain or volume on tap. No, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Turn it to 10. If you use pedals it's great. I usually use input 2 with a gain pedal in front of it. The Hudson Broadcast ap, a Telecaster and the Princeton are a great match for me. Sounds like a small baseman with lots of punch at a reasonable volume. And I've owned a 58 and 59 basements as well as the piggyback type. Also, the Brown Box voltage attenuator does make old Fender amps sound better in my opinion. Side note, I like the non reverb side of Deluxe reverbs better too. Maybe I'm a weirdo. That's from Tim and Ojai Good.
- [67:40]
Skip Simmons
Oh those are no good compared to these. I hate that in almost anything any aspect of life. So if your granddad gives you a non reverb Princeton, don't be moaning because it isn't as gainy and has blah blah blah right? Just like figure out a way to make it happen. Make it work for you. Like this guy did Brown Box. Hate that guy because he probably makes way more money than me and he just did something that was really obvious. But amps ran on 110, you know, they just did. And not a bad idea to run your old stuff on on that. I of course use a Variac, but that's not practical for a gig dog. And then how about a Baffler?
- [68:24]
Jason
Oh sure.
- [68:25]
Skip Simmons
Non reverb Princeton. What amazingly killer amp can I turn that into in 15 minutes? Non reverb Princeton can be made into an unbelievable monster of a classic well known amp in 15 minutes by Skip which amp is it?
- [68:47]
Jason
I love this. I just want to say Snowdonia. So I'm going to read this one. This is from Nick, longtime listener here. I'm sitting in a ferry terminal awaiting a boat across the Irish Sea for a weekend of cycling in Snowdonia in Wales. I'd love to hear Skip give us a spotlight on early mountain biking. All the best from Ireland. That's from Nick.
- [69:12]
Skip Simmons
Snadonia. So last year as a cycling destination is it? We went there in the 70s. No, I that sounds awesome. Irish. That's sounding good. I only have a little of mountain bike history, and that's only because the real guys were in Tiburon. Is that the name of that town in Marin County? Yes. Joe Breeze, Tom Ritchie, can't remember that third guy. And they were the first guys to get super high and to start hauling ass down fire roads on old bikes. You know, when nobody cared about that stuff at all and basically said, we don't want to have 10 speeds with the skinny tires because we like going off road. And then they modified Schwins, which is what. Where's where I got into it. And then they had the money and the wherewithal to actually build a real bike from scratch. That was the first mountain bikes. And those are Tom, Richie and I worked at a bike shop in Sacramento, and we were behind them a few years and we didn't have a lot of money, but we did basically the same sort of stuff. And we went down there and visited them and got really messed up and hung out with them and it was fun. And. And at least one or two of those guys are probably, you know, retired to Maui by now. Right, because they. They played their cards right, but they started out just bike freaks who go fast and crash and rebuild their old bikes and then saying, you know, we have to invent something that didn't exist before, really, if you think about it. And. And that's what they did, as opposed to just making a Schwinn paperboy bike better and better and better. They took that jump and said, nah, we're going to make our own frames and they're going to have these better brakes and all of that stuff. So I think it's kind of interesting. And now, of course, you know, you can buy a quote unquote mountain bike for 169.95 from the Walmart. But believe me, that stuff those guys made was like a guitar, like a Grez. Some guys with passion and. And fire who started doing it. Yes, I still have one bike left from the old days. Don't ride it really, but I still have an old Schwinn, but all tricked out in the best stuff from the day. Wow, 1980 or something like that.
- [71:52]
Jason
That's cool.
- [71:53]
Skip Simmons
It'd be pretty styling. You'd get a lot of comments, like at a beach or BMX thing or somebody that was more historically minded because it's a frame probably from the 40s, so it's like a rat rod kind of thing. We had one that we would ride into the American river off a cliff. Like a 10 foot drop into the river. It was called the river jump. And we'd ride over there and we had this one bike. Well, we worked at a bike shop of course, so we could rebuild the thing every couple of days. But we had one that we would just sail off the end of the bluff into the water.
- [72:27]
Jason
What was. When you worked at the bike shop, what was like the new fanciest tech that no one could afford, that everybody coveted and that I'm sure now has, you know, is just in parts bins and nobody cares about.
- [72:41]
Skip Simmons
You mean in the mountain bike world and.
- [72:43]
Jason
Yeah, when you were at the bike shop.
- [72:45]
Skip Simmons
Well, that was when small BMX bikes were the rage. Right. When kids rode BMX bikes. And it was just an upgrading of parts. So the thing was 26 inch wheels that would fit an old Schwinn but alloys. Right. Or brakes that weren't coaster brakes. Because those things on a 10 mile downhill, you know, they just get so hot you could touch them and all the grease would boil out of them and stuff like that. So we were just looking at other technologies for better things. Cantilever brakes were popular for a while. They came from the ten speed world. Heavier duty brake levers that came from motorcycles instead of just bicycles. You know, anything we could do to make the thing sturdier. And tubular forks because you come down off a jump and the fork would just break and then you'd crash and very painful. So gradually the BMX motocross type bike companies started making stuff for 26 inch adult sized bikes. And then Richie and then, and now it's just. People don't even know it's a mountain bike anymore. They just go, oh, it's a bike. But it has big tires and it has higher ground clearance, it has a lot of gears. It's not a go fast 10 speed type bike at all. Yeah, well, that was a side note.
- [74:07]
Jason
That was cool. Yeah. You know who's really into this stuff is Lloyd Bags, LR Bags, the pickup guy. Really he's, he's got a whole. Every time I've interviewed him he's got like a whole wall of bike frames behind him. And he's a, he's a tinkerer. He. With both photography, pickups and bicycles from what I understand.
- [74:25]
Skip Simmons
So New Departure was the name of a, of a company that made coaster breaks, one of the most popular ones. And that was the name of the band. And that's where we got the little logo and stuff like that. So the bike shop had an influence on the scene and and when I was 20 in 1980.
- [74:42]
Jason
Yeah, right. I love it.
- [74:43]
Skip Simmons
Yeah.
- [74:44]
Jason
All right. We we're going to do one more and everybody out there keep the questions coming. Podcast@frpboardjournal.com thanks to our sponsors Stack, Emerald City Guitars, Amplified Parts, Grz Guitars and all of you out there on our Patreon. This one is from Dale. I don't think Dale sent us a question before. Maybe he has, I don't know.
- [75:07]
Marty
Greetings good gentlemen. Dale from Kelso, WA back again. Picked up a VHT special 6 for way less than I should have paid the schematic seems to be based on a Champ style setup and I'm stoked to have a single ended point to point wired amp to kick around. Upon first jam, I noticed the tone knob had very little effect on the sound unless the amp was cranked. I opened it up, cleaned all the pots, tube sockets, cleaned the ground contacts on the chassis, etc. All the good stuff. Still very little tone knob response. Back under the hood I tested both caps running to and from the tone circuit and everything checked out. Then I noticed the tone pot was in parallel with the volume pot rather than in series as in the Champ circuit. Finally to my question, what effect does the relationship of the volume placement to the tone circuit have on the sound and response of each pot? And could this arrangement be the source of my disappointment with the tone knob? I have attached a schematic. Hopefully you can look it over and let me know where the error might be. Thanks for everything. You guys do love the podcast. Take care.
- [76:16]
Skip Simmons
Couldn't you have picked a different one?
- [76:18]
Jason
Dale added. I'm not sure he should have said Princeton, not Champ and he thinks he found Princeton with a similar tone circuit anyways.
- [76:26]
Skip Simmons
But this. I don't know what this amp is, so what I want to know is. Well, I would say did it ever work? And he's going to say no. Was it messed with or is it. Is that the way the manufacturer thought it was supposed to be or is there a mistake? Don't know. But if it really is something where the pots aren't hooked to a printed circuit board, get you some layouts, not just the schematic but the drawings and change it or compare it to something else. Right? If it's a volume and tone only, then you're going to have some kind of capacitor to ground that rolls off highs and in some cases there's a capacitor that acts as a bleed that actually adds highs. That's like Tweed Deluxe's use. So the schematics can be a little daunting if you're not used to looking at them. But you got the. You got the beautifully drawn layouts, and you could compare it. It's possible that the manufacturer made a mistake, but I don't know. I just don't know. And in parallel and series. So where the volume control is in relationship to the tone control is one of the jillions of things that would affect the sound of an amp. Absolutely. You know, that's, that's. That's something that you could experiment with a lot. Right. So. But I. But I think the bottom line is, is it supposed to be that way, which case might have to modify it? Is it a mistake? In which case might want to change it back. And you could always compare it to some classic Fender schematics like a tweed Princeton or a tweed Deluxe. Those have a single tone knob. He did say one tone knob, didn't he? He did, yes. And in the time it took for me to blab about this, we could have tried something. So might try some little alligator clip setups or something and just start experimenting. And some people really like doing that. The goal would be to see if you can get a wider range of tone control from the amp and therefore a wider range of sounds that you find usable in this thing.
- [78:37]
Jason
All right, we can't end on that one.
- [78:39]
Skip Simmons
That was such a painful, wasn't it?
- [78:40]
Jason
This is from our friend Marty on the Oregon coast.
- [78:43]
Skip Simmons
Oh, no.
- [78:46]
Tim
Greetings, Skip and Jason. And greetings, fellow keggers. It's Marty on the Oregon coast. It's been a while. It's been kind of a brutal year in the beer business, and I've been keeping my nose to the grindstone here. First, an amp question. Skip, I like to run 6L6s in my fender Deluxe reverb, and I'm happy that you have allowed us all to do that safely and effectively. I am trying to remember what the, I guess, range for idle current is for running 6L 6s. I do realize it's tube dependent, but some place to draw a line in the sand would be great. Next topic, reverware. Reverware is great. I've been using it for, like, 40 years, and my parents, I think, used it for 40 years before that unbelievable stainless product. Clean the copper bottoms of those pans with a product called Cameo Copper Cleaner. Just sprinkle it on and rub it around with your hands and it'll brighten that copper right up. You may have to order it online now, but it used to be available on every grocery store. Next tip, food one, instead of buying a brisket, buy chuck roast to put in the smoker. They're cheaper and they have more interstitial fat and they make something that tastes exactly like brisket and they're a lot more forgiving. Second food tip, spicy Italian sausage. You can do this with ground pork or you can do it with field roast. If you're a vegetarian, this is pretty, pretty easy. You want to I use a palm. I don't use tablespoons and teaspoons. Take about a pound and a half of ground pork or field roast. A palm full of whole fennel seeds, a palm full of black peppercorns, not back peppercorns, ground black pepper, a teaspoon of cayenne, a half teaspoon of mace, a big palm of paprika, probably mixed smoked and sweet paprika, a half a palm of red pepper flakes, some crushed garlic and some splash of red wine. You chop that up before you make your pasta sauce with a San Marzano tomatoes and you just brown that up a little bit with all those spices, you will be so happy that you did not buy sausage. It'll be unbelievable. And the last thing for the Grateful Dead. Curious. Let's talk about 1973. If you're into bluegrass, you should check out old and in the way unbelievable Music played in 1973 with Jerry Garcia, David Grisman, Peter Rowan, Vassar Clemens, John Kahn, Richard Crean, and John Hartford. If you tend towards the jazz world, check out Keystone Companions with Merle Saunders and John Kahn, Bill Vitt and David Grisman. And then if that doesn't all blow your mind, I mean, just jump over to the Spotify and pick up RFK Stadium. The Grateful Dead Washington, D.C. 6, 107373 was a marvelous year in Grateful Dead history. And if you're even a little bit curious, that's probably four or five hours of listening that should not be missed in this lifetime. Hope you all enjoy. Take care.
- [82:20]
Jason
Wow.
- [82:20]
Skip Simmons
Wow, Marty. I think both of those guys wrote that stuff. It takes it that, you know, they take time to gather their thoughts, right. Write down some notes and stuff. Unlike us, 6L6 is in a deluxe reverb. I would stick with the general 20 to 30, 35. I mean, around 30, 30, 35. I'm not sure I'd really. I really noticed the super difference between small differences and bias of those amps. If you do great, I think if you play them at rel, relatively low power levels, pretty hard to tell. And the main reason why I'm into 6L6s and Deluxe Reverbs is because new 6V6s are less than we would like as far as reliability and stuff. Don't make me quote the great Jim Kelly, who said, I just bought a bunch of great ones back when they were still available. I don't use those new ones. So somewhere around the same plate current that you'd use for any 6L6 tube, 25 to 35 is going to be fine. And the sausage, making it like, sort of fresh in a pan like that. That's a. That's a. I'll have to work on how much a palm is, but that's a good idea. I could see that. If you put enough of that stuff in kale, I would eat it. How about those little cabbages, Brussels sprouts? Is there enough stuff to put on those that.
- [83:53]
Jason
That can make those edible balsamic, Maybe a lot of salt and pepper.
- [84:02]
Skip Simmons
Barbecue sauce, maybe?
- [84:04]
Jason
Barbecue sauce. Whatever. Whatever it takes.
- [84:06]
Skip Simmons
Well, did we answer Marty's question?
- [84:08]
Jason
We did. I'm a little worried about the beer industry now from the beginning of what he said, but I guess that's. There were so many breweries, it's not surprising that post pandemic, it's a bit.
- [84:19]
Skip Simmons
It can be hard to choose, you know, between your IPAs. Sometimes it's kind of might be maybe leveling. Right. Well, most. Most grocery stores have all sorts of weird stuff that you'd never think they would have had back in the 90s and 2000s.
- [84:33]
Jason
I've been enjoying the. The NA beers lately.
- [84:37]
Skip Simmons
You would? Yeah. Who makes a good one?
- [84:41]
Jason
I mean, there aren't many great ones. I would say The Pilsners and IPAs are better than the heavier versions. The Corona is actually not bad.
- [84:53]
Skip Simmons
Athletic Corona.
- [84:55]
Jason
Yeah. Athletic Brewing makes one that you can find in a variety of flavors.
- [85:02]
Skip Simmons
Yeah.
- [85:03]
Jason
The one that I like the best because I can just down them like they're Lacroix is. I think I've only seen them at Whole Foods, but it's called Partake. It's from Canada, and they're only 10 calories. So it's like all the joy of drinking a beer, but only 10 calories I could just drink. If they didn't cost as much as regular beer. I'd drink a six pack in like an hour.
- [85:22]
Skip Simmons
So what's a Lacroix?
- [85:24]
Jason
Croix is just that can of fizzy water you see everywhere.
- [85:27]
Skip Simmons
Club soda or something. I like that.
- [85:29]
Jason
Yeah.
- [85:29]
Skip Simmons
Yeah. If it was cheaper. Yeah.
- [85:32]
Jason
No, they cost as much as. As high end beers. That's the problem.
- [85:35]
Skip Simmons
Well, that's because they make beer and then they take the alcohol out of it. Right? That's how they do that.
- [85:39]
Jason
How they do it. Yeah.
- [85:40]
Skip Simmons
Heineken, non alcohol. I know somebody drinks that. It's pretty good.
- [85:44]
Jason
It's not bad.
- [85:45]
Skip Simmons
Yeah. You're to be commended for your healthy lifestyle.
- [85:48]
Jason
Thanks, Skip. Doing my best over here. That was a unique episode of the Truth About Vintage Amps podcast, everybody. If this is your first time tuning in, we don't often have lawyers turn jazz guitarists on as special guests, and usually we get through a lot more questions. But. But a great episode. Thanks to everybody for participating and tuning in and thanks to our sponsors.
- [86:12]
Skip Simmons
Yes, absolutely. I don't. Sometimes I just don't know why we're still doing this, but we are. And I appreciate the fact that there's people who are still paying attention. I don't know why.
- [86:26]
Jason
More than ever, I would have thought.
- [86:27]
Skip Simmons
I'd said anybody that ever wanted to talk to me. I mean, you know, I don't think I might run out of stories.
- [86:35]
Jason
Nah, we got. We got plenty.
- [86:37]
Skip Simmons
Okay. I'm here for you.
- [86:39]
Jason
Thank you so much. Thanks to everybody for tuning in. And we'll keep them coming.