← The Truth About Vintage Amps with Skip Simmons
The Truth About Vintage Amps with Skip Simmons
Ep. 158: "Not Just Living in Their Mom's Basement"
01:05:50
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- [00:11]
A
Good morning. How are you?
- [00:14]
B
Fine. Are you filling sandbags or anything?
- [00:17]
A
We're not filling sandbags. The storm, well, it's winding down. It's getting colder. Snow is falling in the mountains. It's becoming a normal winter again.
- [00:28]
B
Excellent. Glad to hear it. You can hear me? Okay.
- [00:30]
A
I can hear you. Okay. And I'm about to add two very special guests to this call. Do you want me to.
- [00:35]
B
Absolutely.
- [00:36]
A
Okay. I am adding two return guests to the Truth About Vintage Amps podcast. They're going to be unmuted at any moment. Chris Benson of Benson Amplifiers down in Portland, Oregon, and Brian from Sour Sound Transformers, two of our most cherished guests from the past.
- [00:58]
C
Hey, it's Chris Bunsen here.
- [01:01]
D
Hello.
- [01:01]
A
Before we get into it, I've got to thank our sponsors because I feel like the information is going to come fast and furious. And this our final episode of 2025 Grez Guitars. Everybody please go follow Barry at Grez Guitars. He's going to be at the Wood Wire Volts not NAMM show coming up in January and you can go follow him wherever you live and order one of his beautiful electric guitars. We're also brought to you by Amplified Parts, where so much of what we talk about on this show can be procured. Let me look at the Amplified Parts website right now. Right now they've got the hammered silver enclosures if anybody wants to try their hand at making a pedal for the first time. They've also got amp kits and all the stuff we talk about, including vacuum tubes. And then of course our friends at Emerald City Guitars here in Seattle, Washington, where you can find a wide array of Benson amps, among other things, including the occasional dumble. Lots of Marshalls, lots of Fenders. Those are our sponsors. Howdy, everybody. Skip before we talk to Chris and Brian, what's on your bench right now?
- [02:09]
B
I should have anticipated that. I know, but since we. Since we have the Sour Sound guy, I should say that a cus I built a silver face champion with a beefier power supply and a monster single ended output Transformer. Sour Sound customer of mine played it, had to have it. Pestered, pestered, pestered G long enough to make him another one. And I made him a second. I made him another one just like mine, which included a choke input and more filter capacitors and the big Transformer. And he's really happy with it. So long time.
- [02:50]
D
That's awesome. Yeah, that, that output transformer is crazy. It's just. It's kind of everything I ever wanted to do in a single ended Output for like it covers parallel 6V6, it covers single ended 6L6, single ended EL34, it's 4A16. You know, it's tapped primary to get or the 2500 4105K primary loads. It's. That thing is a beast. It's so cool sounding though. The geometry of it's just unlike anything else out there. So I'm glad that you were able to do something really cool with it.
- [03:29]
B
Yes, it was the geometry of it that. It was the geometry of the tone that lured me in. No, I appreciate companies that say, yeah, well here and you know. Right. And you were kind enough after you were on the podcast the first time to just send me that thing and I said one day I know what I could do. I, I pro. I was thinking at first of some sort of super cool single ended pa had like a single 807 or something. But I just kind of wanted to see how far you could go with a silver face Champ chassis. And you definitely can make. But the rest of the stuff that you do, it definitely sounds like eight watts instead of four, that's for sure. I'm also supposed to say hi from August at Otisamps, who is an early fan of your stuff as well.
- [04:22]
D
Yeah, I need to give him a call. I haven't talked to him in a bit. You know, when I sent you that output, I honestly thought you're going to love this thing or you're going to. You're going to hate it. I wasn't sure if it was your bag at all, but you know, it was something cool I was working on. I was stoked on it and I figured, you know what, like send it your way, see what you do with it. So yeah, that's great to hear.
- [04:44]
C
Is that the one you let me take home the other day, Brian?
- [04:48]
D
Yeah, yeah, that's the one. That your super secret prototype? Yep, that's that Transformer.
- [04:56]
C
Oh yeah, it's not that secret. It's called the International. That Transformer sounds amazing.
- [05:02]
A
So for folks who are just tuning in and have not been through all the Truth about Vintage Amps episodes, Brian Sowers of Sour Sam Transformers in Portland was in October of 2022. I had to look this up on the 102nd episode of the Truth About Vintage Amps podcast. That was one of our longest episodes ever and one of our most information dense episodes ever. Some folks love it when we go in the weeds and get really granular. And Brian, you delivered between 2022 and now. What's different at Sour Sound. What are you working on now? And then I guess we can talk about what you're doing with Chris too.
- [05:43]
D
I mean, a lot of stuff we've definitely grown. There's more employees and all the stress and sleepless nights that come with that. We, we do so many more designs, it's ridiculous. And, you know, I'm kind of just starting the process of getting new designs up on the website. I mean, I think there's like 18 transformers up there yet when I look at our SKU catalog, it's up to like 250 or something. It's ridiculous. There's so much stuff that I've been working on that we do that's just not really like released into the world. Yeah, we. I think since that episode we started doing Milkman Transformers. You know, Chris has expanded since then, so we've expanded to kind of meet that demand. Let's see what else. We, I mean, we developed a lot of the new stuff for the new Dumble company, which was a really cool process. I have some NDAs and stuff with that, so I don't know how much of it I can openly talk about, but you know, there's. There's some cool stuff there. The last year has been just obsessing over Vox amps. I developed a custom formulation of high temperature condenser wax for use in impregnating Transformers with that wax. Just like the box stuff was done. In fact, Chris was just at the shop like less than a month ago listening to some of the results of that. And this stuff is just really cool. Yeah, a lot of weird pro audio stuff. You know, again, kind of into 2026 and then, yeah, making 700 watt transformers for a fantasy amp that will blow a hole in the spacetime continuum. So, you know, just another, you know, new R and D project over at Source.
- [07:41]
A
Who would have thunk at a time when it's hard enough to get good vacuum tubes that a guy and a dream to make a Transformer company could blow up the way you have? And blow up in a good way, not in an amp on the fritz way.
- [07:55]
D
Yeah, fingers crossed. Knock on wood. Yeah, it's been wild, you know, and I mean, a lot of it is because of that crazy episode for sure. You know what? However, whatever amount of coffee I consumed in order to filibuster my way through that one, you know, it paid off and, you know, so thank you. Thank you very much to both of you and to Chris obviously as well. Yeah, I, you know, I started doing this stuff because I wasn't getting what I wanted. And the reality is that other people were not getting what they wanted either. And Transformers Audio. Transformers in general is such like a. It's not just that it's a dead art, you know, it's something that even the people who do it for a living don't understand. I mean, you know, I kind of threatened to go and do a diatribe about the paper versus plastic debate and how I can 100% settle that debate. And it's just kind of like. It's that, you know, it's marketing, it's where modern manufacturing's gone. And yeah, it's. Who would have thought, you know, there are more people out there with ears who care like we do. And yeah, you know, it's. It's a trial every day to kind of satiate that. But, you know, we're scaling to meet it and we're doing new stuff and, you know, people are really enjoying it. So it's really just about getting the word out and going from there, you know, wild.
- [09:27]
B
That's not it, you guys.
- [09:30]
D
Thanks.
- [09:31]
B
That's not it. I mean, it's one thing to be passionate and to do something really cool that nobody else is doing, and you do it your way because you want to. That's what I try to do. But to be involved in something that the new Dumble amps are going to, blah, blah, blah. Or working with boutique small builders like August from Otis Amps, or boutique bigger builders like you're talking about now at a. Did you say 700 watts?
- [10:03]
A
So they're going to talk about that in a few minutes. We're just trying to kind of set the table here with what they've been up to.
- [10:09]
B
It's one. Like I said, it's a whole nother thing to be able to have some employees and run the show and make it all happen. It's like great guitar players are around, but guys who are great bandmates. And it's a little different. You know, there's always going to be some kooks in there in their treehouse like me doing some weird little thing. But I'm super impressed with, you know, the mainstream and the business aspect. I know a guy who decided to start a magazine about guitars and, you know, that was noble. But doing it for all this time, Jason, that's a whole different thing than having employees and stuff like that. I don't have to do that. I gotta try to figure out maybe what to make for dinner. But I don't.
- [11:00]
C
I don't.
- [11:01]
B
I I'm just blown away by entrepreneur. Entrepreneurs and people that can run up, you know, run a business and make it pan out. So hats off.
- [11:11]
D
I mean, it ain't easy. It really ain't easy. It's like I've had to focus a lot more. I've had to focus so much more on the business lately. And, you know, it's. It's rewarding in different ways, but it's also. It's difficult. And I'm. You know, I'll admit it. I'm not. I'm not a business person. You know, I'm. I could be happy just toiling away at a bench with an endless supply of transformer ideas and, you know, automated testing systems and whatever you want to talk about that I'm into. But, you know, having employees kind of changed a lot of things. You know, there's a pressure to kind of keep people going, keep people busy, making sure, you know, all the bills and stuff get paid. And yeah, it's. I mean, thanks for appreciating that aspect of it because, wow, it's. It can be consuming for sure.
- [12:02]
B
It doesn't have anything to do what got you going on this stuff in the first place. That was all worth slaving away at your bench for yourself. So. All right, enough of that.
- [12:14]
A
Brian, you mentioned the wax development that I'm going to botch, so I'm just going to let people know what you were talking about.
- [12:22]
C
How.
- [12:22]
A
How much, in terms of new transformers, are you. Are you just limited by time and your imagination, or are there some parts and some building processes where it's just like Unobtainium?
- [12:36]
D
I would say both. You know, you know, I have a lot going on, and I definitely kind of struggle with my own just, you know, energy levels and, you know, I'm getting older. I'm a little older since that podcast last time.
- [12:49]
A
We all.
- [12:50]
D
So, you know, I'll always battle that a little bit. You know, burnout can be a very real thing. Passion will take you very far. But, you know, at some point, you got to sleep, and you got to sleep through the night and not wake up with, you know, new winding ideas. But, you know, as far as material limitations, it's gotten a lot worse. That is. That is a very real thing. You know, in the last year, plus, ordering materials has gotten more difficult. Minimum order quantities have skyrocketed, prices have gone up. You know, there's tariff implications on everything, even stuff that's made in America, because raw materials are a global thing. So there's all of that Stuff. Furthermore, you know, the big thing in the electrical steel world now is that everything is now made to order. And so there were things that were like off the shelf that we could get in smaller quantities, but that's pretty much gone. So I had started customizing my core loss specifications and certain other aspects of core material laminations years ago. And now that's pretty much everything. Everything has to be made to my order, which can be cool in one sense because you know, we have custom stuff. It can also be really detrimental in that, you know, I just place an order for some material that is of pretty standard part. It's something we use in Benson. 30 watt power transformers, let me think Tweet, Tweed basement, Tweed superpower transformers, all the black panel basement, you know, that size type transformers. And it used to be I had to order about 650 pounds. Now I've got to order close to 1200. And that's a lot, that's a lot to buy and it's a lot to shelf. So those are the kind of issues I'm running into. You know, certain magnetic grades and things. I have to custom order them and I have to order an immense amount. So in the last year our normal stock was about, you know, 2,000 pounds of core material. That's closer to three now because that's the only way I can make sure I have what I need to actually build stuff. Which again, £3,000 is crazy. So yeah, there's a lot of stuff that's really popped up. It's. It's been a lot more difficult to be a small company. You know, we, we have to grow just to make it work.
- [15:19]
A
We just recorded Skip and I an episode that went live today, the day we're talking December 18th. And Skip was talking about how so many of these tubes come from countries that hate us. You mentioned tariffs. How many of your parts are coming from like these Eastern European, Russian ish countries versus domestically?
- [15:42]
D
For me, not much. You know, there's one company I deal with, the largest electrical steel manufacturer in the world. I have been ordering less and less from them. Certain parts that they make are stamped in Mexico and they own the own the mill there that does all of that. And my understanding of their process is that their raw sheets are basically shipped down to Mexico, I think from the U.S. i assume, or from storage, you know, elsewhere in the world. And then the laminations themselves are stamped there in Mexico at their mill and then re annealed, which is what they need to be, which is stress relieving and also what's a heat treatment that's needed to basically to make the lamination have certain electrical properties, permeability, et cetera. And then everything is packaged from there and then shipped back to America. So they own these materials, they own this processing place, but yet they have to pay whatever. Last I checked it was what, 20, 30% they have to pay that tariff just to bring their own materials back into the country. So of course they're going to pass that on to their customers. So there is also one for very small wire, like 35 magnet wire, 35 gauge and smaller. There's a producer somewhere in Eastern Europe that's one of the biggest in the world. And their wire will sometimes get sold to distributors in America and then like relabeled or rebranded. So I've seen smaller wire get tariff stuff added to it. That's about the extent of what I see. Because my hardware is all American stamped and American made. I'd say other than that particular material traveling to and from Mexico, all of my core materials, American made, American steel. So yeah, just, it's like a few things, you know, vacuum tubes and all of that stuff. My God. Yeah. Or pedal parts. That's crazy.
- [17:48]
A
Chris, we haven't talked to you in even longer. What's up at Benson Amps? How many people work at Benson Amps right now? If you can share this sort of proprietary information.
- [17:59]
C
Yeah, no problem. So directly I think we've got about. We have 19 employees. Holy cow. And then there's an additional, probably 10 that rely on Benson for, for their employment, like Sour's shop and some of the people at our distributor. So it's a, it's a, it's kind of a big ship and I try not to think about it.
- [18:25]
B
Office party. Who's, who's organizing the office Christmas party.
- [18:29]
A
With all those people? Hard hitting question, Skip.
- [18:32]
C
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. We, we tried to go bowling this year and we got like an insane quote. So we just got some barbecue and ate it at the shop. But that was my ops manager, Ryan and me. And man, if you're in Portland and you haven't tried Botto's barbecue, that we wait too much. It is freaking insane.
- [18:56]
B
That's what we need. Spell that for us.
- [18:59]
C
B O T T O.
- [19:02]
D
Bank.
- [19:03]
B
You could bank that, I'm sure.
- [19:06]
C
It is unbelievable. So we got that for a Christmas party, which is really cool.
- [19:12]
A
So we've got Brian with his Transformer empire. We've got Chris with his new amplifier company and they're both in Portland. So of course they're going to partner up. What is this project that you guys have brewing?
- [19:30]
C
I guess I'll take this. So we, we're making a 700 watt vacuum tube amplifier. And it's, yeah, it's Mono, it runs 14 KT88s and it's, it's massive. It's. It's theoretical at the moment because all the parts are sitting on the, the living room table at the shop waiting for me to assemble them later today. And then I think it's probably going to take like three days to wire it. But I kind of. I called Brian with this idea. I think maybe a year ago. I was just driving around thinking of funny things we could do with our businesses, and I was like, oh, I bet Brian could actually make me these transformers. And he, he said, yeah, that'd be pretty funny. But you know, who would, who would order it? And then fast forward six months, someone actually ordered it.
- [20:42]
D
Silly idea.
- [20:43]
C
We can't discuss who it is quite yet, but it is, it is paid for. And now we're just making it. And we landed ourselves a little hot water with. Now we have to design the thing. And Brian has actually done a lot of that work, I would say the bulk of it. Now we're actually going to stick it together and see if it works.
- [21:13]
A
You can't tell us who this customer is. We're all going to hear them through our windows with, when. The minute they try out this 700 watt amp. No matter where you live. Did you price this accordingly or was this priced obscenely high because you never want to do it, or now that you're in the thick of it, you should have charged more.
- [21:35]
C
We gave them a little bit of a deal on it because there's probably going to be some rough patches and, you know, tech calls and whatnot because of the scope of the project. But I think. I haven't talked to Brian about this, but I think we might try to make a few more maybe if people actually want them. I mean, it's such an insane thing. I'm not sure. I know people will appreciate it and think it's at least funny, but I don't know if anyone's actually gonna, gonna pony up and get one, but I guess people out there.
- [22:17]
D
So maybe it's a great joke on one hand, but it's a very. It's an expensive joke no matter what, you know, it's not a joke. I shouldn't say that, but it's kind of a joke. It's. It's a dream It's a. It's a dream that we're going to realize, but, yeah, very costly one. I should have charged more for the transformers.
- [22:44]
B
All right, I have questions.
- [22:46]
A
Yeah, please skip.
- [22:48]
B
How many knobs does this thing have?
- [22:52]
C
3.
- [22:56]
D
What.
- [22:56]
B
What's your anticipated B plus voltage on the power tubes there?
- [23:02]
C
7.
- [23:06]
B
Is it like an expanded SVT or is it sort of like radio transmitter technology, you know, no, it's.
- [23:16]
D
It's all receiving tubes. No transmitting tubes. I.
- [23:19]
B
No transmitting tubes.
- [23:21]
D
That was a big thing for me is, you know, well, we could do this. You could stick some 807s or 213s or whatever in there, you know, give us a 1100 volt rail for the B plus and do something like that. But, you know, screw that. That's dangerous. You know, a lot of this. I think actually Chris's number one design criteria was can we design something that we can actually make? That was the real challenge because, yeah, you can do that with transmitting tubes, but when you cross an 800 volt, you know, approximate threshold, so many things change. I mean, we already have to sleeve a lot of wiring in order to get a voltage breakdown that's going to handle this between the chassis. But creepage distances become, you know, life or death. Like if you have, you know, a thousand volts you know, going around a chassis. We have to rethink wire. We have to. I mean, we already had to rethink wire. We had to rethink locations of wire inside the transformers. I had to think much more about voltage breakdown between sections, let alone how the hell you make an output transformer that thinks, what, 32 or like 15amp on the secondary at 4 ohm. I mean, the thing is just a massive current amplifier. I mean, it's not. It's still a tube amp. But my design concept was that was let's make this a current amplifier. So we threw a lot of ideas out. And yeah, transmitting tubes was thrown out pretty much right away. We thought about doing like KT120s, KT150s, but they all suffer from the same issue, which is, you know, it's basically just a KT88 with a bigger plate structure, so it can dissipate more heat. Right. But the only way to get more current going out of it is going to be higher voltages. And again, we just run into the same issues. So. And furthermore, there's no advantage to any of those larger bottles with regards to. Or at least no significant advantage, I should say, with those larger bottles in relation to output transformer primary Impedance. And so that was, that's the whole concept right there was how do we do this design where we get the lowest, relatively lowest possible primary load in the output transformer that we can swing. And the stupid idea was why don't we just put a lot of KC88 in there? And I mean, the more that we talked, I mean, the more we, we threw that around, it was a good idea.
- [26:03]
B
It's got seven tubes on each side of a push pull stage. It's not ultralinear or anything weird like that, Correct?
- [26:11]
D
Yeah, not ultra linear. 14 of them. Wow. Yeah. So the plate load is 600 ohms, which is just ridiculously low for anyone who designs transformers for a living.
- [26:29]
B
Well, it's like the OT, the old OTL, no output transformer amps from the 50s in the hi fi world that ran like a 600 ohm speaker or something like that without an output transformer and needed a million output tubes. So how physically large is the output transformer? If it was like if I was holding it on my lap, would it be like a foot square? Every dimension like a foot? Is it that big?
- [26:58]
D
Chris has it.
- [27:00]
B
What's the way.
- [27:01]
C
Oh sat in front of me.
- [27:03]
D
Oh, the total. So the total iron weight alone. This include. This is. So it has two power transformers, one output transformer, two chokes and an interstage transformer. The total iron weight is 72 pounds.
- [27:19]
B
An interstate transformer.
- [27:22]
D
Oh yeah. That's the way to do it.
- [27:24]
B
So that's your phase inverter, correct?
- [27:28]
D
Yes. So there's a fixed bias 6L6 stage, drives an interstage transformer that has a bifilar wound secondary. So it has basically dual secondaries that are resistance match, you know, winding match. That's the beauty of a bifilar winding, but one of the beauties of it. And that drives the each array of seven power tubes on per side.
- [27:52]
B
So. Okay, we. I always make fun of talking about phase inverters, but we, we do have people who are listening to that stuff. We do have people that are bored, you know, at.
- [28:06]
A
This will be a Christmas gift for them.
- [28:08]
B
Yeah, I, yeah, I cleaned the house when you were on the first time. It's just, it's a lot bifolder, you know, the beauty. But, but a lot of people will go, wait a minute, a power tube like a 6L6 driving a transformer that is then driving a push pull output stage. Some of our weirdo friends who work on stuff from the 30s and 40s, Larry Chung, see, see stuff like that. It was pretty common in even 40 or 50 watt PA stuff. Thor Darsen was really into that. They'd have a power tube driving a transformer, driving the. The output stage. So it's pretty cool, you guys. Not that there's nothing new, but it's definitely a classic setup. It's not something really, really strange, you know. Well, other than being 700 watts, that's strange enough, but it's still. It's still like you say, it's still a pretty traditional circuit that a regular person with some knowledge could wrap their head around the schematic, if they saw it.
- [29:17]
D
Basically, Chris was. Was instrumental in that for sure. I kind of came to the table with, oh, I want to do a, you know, a current source, you know, in the cathode of this thing and do like an active plate load over here, like, you know, solid state transistors doing current mirroring. And he was like, dude, no, it's a 700 watt amp. Like, let's just get 700 watts out of it. Come on. It's already complicated enough. And he's right, you know.
- [29:48]
C
We call Brian the bomb killer, the bill of materials killer. Yeah, he will just throw it all at the wall. And then I have to make it.
- [29:59]
B
A bass player who wants it. Is it a bass player who wants it? And how many gigantic cabinets will it take to hook up to this beast?
- [30:08]
D
Skip, this is a good. This is a guitar amp, guitar app.
- [30:13]
B
Volume, treble bass, straight guitar.
- [30:16]
C
Yeah.
- [30:17]
B
Well, what would happen if you played bass through it?
- [30:20]
C
I don't know.
- [30:21]
B
Calamity.
- [30:24]
C
Kind of an inside joke, I guess, because obviously you can play bass through it, and obviously it's going to sound pretty good, I bet.
- [30:32]
D
Yeah, it. I think if you play bass through it, it becomes Twin Peaks Season 3.
- [30:40]
B
There were charts in old Fender catalogs where they'd run the amps along the bottom of the page and they'd run the guitars up one side and there'd be a dot, you know, like Bandmaster Reverb. Okay. To use a Mustang, you know, Right. Guitar or whatever. But there'd be. There'd be setups that, you know, oh, no, don't want to use this with that. Right. So I'm sure that any musician would like to hear that thing going. And I might even say that an audio source would probably sound pretty dramatic through that thing as well. Just saying.
- [31:13]
C
Yeah, for sure.
- [31:14]
D
Do you want to talk about the cabinet array that you're developing for this?
- [31:18]
C
Oh, sure, yeah. I mean, we're kind of like, what? Honestly, probably the best Cabinet for it would be like four Marshall, you know, four 12s but we wanted to do something a little different. So we did 1412 that the actual thing is going to sit on and it's basically a stand for the head. So the head is exactly this, you know, the same footprint as like a straight Marshall style cab. And then on either side of that are going to be two or, I'm sorry, three vertical 212 cabinets. So it's going to have seven cabinets total. What is it, eight? No. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Sixteen speakers total, the way we're shipping it. And a wall of sound. Symmetrical. Yeah.
- [32:12]
A
Wow.
- [32:16]
D
I think we've, we've limited to what, five speaker cables at this point?
- [32:22]
C
No, this, four outputs coming off the head and then the 212s are being run and run in parallel. So it's, I'm going to have to provide them with like a wiring diagram of how to get everything together to get the right load.
- [32:42]
B
What's the value of the, the mains fuse, as our British listeners would say, the solderers. So there's a fuse there by the power cord. I'm curious, how big is that thing? SVT is I think are what like 6 or 8amps. But you're talking like 10 or 15 or something like that, right?
- [33:04]
C
Well, we don't totally know yet because. One of the design criteria was we want it to be able to run off of a normal wall current, wall voltage. So at first my idea was to do 1000 watt amp at first and then we started doing the math. It's like, well, you're not actually going to be, you're going to have to use a dryer cord to plug this in. No one's got that. And the customer might not have that in the exact spot they want the SAM. So we decided to limit it to 700 watts, which is about as much as you can draw out of a 15amp breaker without popping it. Right. So in terms of the fuses, it gets a little more complicated because we actually have different transformers doing different things under fuse separately. So I imagine together they're going to come up to about 15amps. But in practice it's probably going to be 10amps for 1 and 5amps for the other. Brian got really granular on that. I'm sure he's got a much better answer than a, you know, my yolo.
- [34:24]
B
Especially since you haven't, you haven't, you haven't done it. I just got done with a book about developing the atomic bomb. And one interesting thing was they did not even know if it, it, you know, years and billions of dollars and thousands and thousands of people and they didn't really know if it was going to work or not until they actually did it. And this kind of thing, I be a fly on the wall when you guys light this bad boy up for the first time. All right, maybe the last question. Another question. Is the, is the preamp in the front end of this thing really traditional? Is it, is it a Sun Model T or is it something like completely unique, like a strictly a Benson thing that you're into or what?
- [35:08]
C
Yeah, no, it's just a Benson Chimera style preamp which most of my amps have. So it's kind of the preamp. I started my company on that.
- [35:17]
B
Well, that's. So that's, that's, that's staying the same. But the 700 watt output stage, that's, that's a little different.
- [35:25]
C
Yeah, much different. Yeah.
- [35:28]
D
The 14kt 88 really set it apart.
- [35:34]
B
Could you imagine if you had to use real Genelex ones? And how often do you anticipate you'd have to replace those bad boys?
- [35:42]
C
Right.
- [35:42]
B
Hopefully a guy could get, A guy or gal could get a couple of years of regular use out of those babies, I would hope.
- [35:50]
D
Well, I mean, you know, it's a 700 watt amp, but the reality is, you know, is someone going to be playing 700 watts through it at all times? Which again, you know, that concept was, was it integral to our design? You know, this thing is. It's insane. Like just flat.
- [36:10]
B
Gonna get louder and louder. It's not going to compress, it's not going to distort, it's not going to crush.
- [36:16]
C
Correct.
- [36:16]
B
It's just going to get louder and louder like an acoustic guitar.
- [36:21]
D
And the thing is it's going to be 700 watts in AB1. That's, that's a crucial thing here that this thing can, can draw grid current in the output tubes. It can hit AB2 operation and it will go beyond 700 watts most definitely. At that point though, I mean, it's just going to blow every breaker it's plugged into without fail. You know, it's. The whole thing is an exercise in. What's the word I want to use here? Like unobstruction from the power cables. Plural. It has multiple power cables. It has three of them. From the power we settled on two.
- [37:04]
C
Yeah.
- [37:06]
D
So from the, from the two power cables, right, all the way to the center tap of the output transformer, you're probably talking less than 10 ohms total. The winding resistances are just so ridiculously small because all the wire is huge. You know, diode, the diode resistance is obviously quite small. This thing is just, it is not current limited in any way. It is unrestricted. It will just keep going, which is, that's the scary part. That's the safety stuff. That was our second criteria was like in our second main criteria was like, how do we make this thing so it is somewhat safe? It's less about voltage and more about the fact that you could just smoke wiring if it's not, you know, ran correctly as far as output tubes go. Yeah, I mean no one's going to run it at 700 watts for a, you know, four hour show or something like that. It's just, it's not going to happen. So tube reliability should actually be really, really good because if you think about it there, the load, you know, is just, is distributed across 14 bottles. You know, I think manufacturing tolerances and transport issues are the main things that would contribute to lack of reliability. In the output section we also developed a protection circuit that you know, triggers in pairs. So if there is a failure, there'll be an additional amount of screen grid current that's drawn that will trigger the protection circuit and disable a pair of tubes. There's an indicator that shows you that that pair is out. There's multiple test points in the amp that are accessible via a circuit board that Chris came up with. So there's a lot of stuff that, you know, a technically minded person who owns this thing can safely run it and have, you know, like user feedback as to the functionality and the state of reliability with it.
- [39:06]
C
Yeah, I should say that the, that circuit board is only for the protection circuit and the bias adjustment. Everything else is going to be completely, you know, point to point terminal strip, hand wired. So it's, it's not like we're going to have a circuit board, you know, three feet by one and a half feet sitting inside the chassis.
- [39:30]
B
What's your preferred current production KT88.
- [39:36]
C
We, we, we love JJ. I love JJ and we, we have a really close relationship with Eurotubes and Eddie, the principal at Eurotubes actually really kind of hooked us up. He, we actually ran the schematic by him because he's just such a, such an expert and he had some really good ideas and good feedback for us and he gave us some really, really closely matched KT88 that are going to be going in this thing.
- [40:11]
D
Cool. Yeah. That's the other madman aspect of this thing. Is that so, you know, I, I obviously I handled a lot of the. The power amp design. Chris has got to handle how to build the dang thing, and he's insane. He's doing all this on terminal strips. I can't believe it. That's. It's amazing. I don't think I would ever have undertaken it that way because I would be too scared. But I mean, he's been building amps like that for so long that. That's his. That works and it works really well.
- [40:48]
B
So.
- [40:48]
D
Yeah, this thing, it is such a monster. I just. There's just so many things floating through my head about how crazy this project is. And I think as we start to kind of get further into the production of it, you guys will see it's. It's nuts.
- [41:04]
A
Is this debuting at a particularly famous trade show that takes place in Anaheim, California?
- [41:12]
C
You mean wood, wire, bolts?
- [41:14]
A
Yeah, that's the one.
- [41:16]
C
Yeah, we will be debuting it there.
- [41:19]
A
Okay.
- [41:20]
C
What? Where? The mystery. The mystery.
- [41:22]
B
It's not very long from now.
- [41:25]
C
No, we're playing it pretty dangerously.
- [41:31]
B
They're going to set off. Set off the explosion like a Los. Los Alamos.
- [41:35]
C
Right.
- [41:35]
B
It's the first time they knew it was even going to work. You guys are going to be soldering, like in the hotel room, right. The night before and stuff was perfect. No, no, just. We need a deadline. Ask Jason. He lives by him, so. That's far out.
- [41:50]
D
Yeah, we're going to limiting.
- [41:55]
B
Those lights go out all over greater Los Angeles.
- [41:58]
A
Yeah, you could ruin that whole trade show if you blow out the whole neighborhood.
- [42:02]
B
I could hear it from my house in Northern California. Well, I tell you, Jason, these two guys are just out there. Gotta love that. Gotta love that. And not just out there like I complimented them at the beginning, but out there committed, passionate freaks. But not just living in their mom's basement, employing people and doing. Making it happen, you know, that's just that. That I'm super impressed with that.
- [42:32]
A
It's a real Portland, Oregon success story.
- [42:35]
B
Fabulous.
- [42:36]
A
Do you guys learn anything from building us or. I mean, you're still in the thick of it, but are you going to. Are there any takeaways from making a brand new 700 watt tube amp that then maybe translate to more modest affairs like the stuff that an average Joe would buy?
- [42:58]
C
I'm going to say no. No.
- [43:02]
B
Yeah, they already make that, right? You guys already make that preamp in a 50 water or 100 water that somebody you know, might theoretically be able to use. Now this is the, this is the great whale, you know, going to appeal to certain people. I bet, I bet, I bet there won't be just one. I bet there'll be a few.
- [43:23]
D
I think Brian.
- [43:25]
B
Somebody'S gonna want one.
- [43:27]
D
I'm, I'm trying to come up with something that's, that we did that's like, oh, that can translate into a, you know, 100 watt amp or something and. No, no, the, the, you know, the, the inrush current limiting stuff maybe like that, that. I think what we developed with that is really cool. But I mean a 400 watt amp, maybe it translates to that, you know, the interstage work. I guess that translates to other stuff. But no, this thing is just, it is really its own beast in so many ways.
- [44:01]
A
And the speakers that are going into these cabinets, are those off the shelf or did you have to have those custom made?
- [44:08]
C
Oh yeah, they're Weber. Makes a custom speaker for us already and we, in order to get the load right, we just had them make a 16ohm version of our custom ceramic speaker which is, I believe it's like their Gray Wolf or Silver Wolf cone, which I really love. It's kind of like a hasher style speaker, but it works well for my like my Twee Portland amps. For some reason it just kind of, I like it. Like we, they had when we kind of worked with them to get the right recipe and they kept sending me Mueller cone stuff and kept not being right. And then they, they threw that at the wall at one point and I was like, this sounds amazing. Thanks guys. So, yeah, some version of that cone with a 50 watt magnet.
- [45:08]
A
What else is, what else is brewing at Benson that you can talk about? What's the latest?
- [45:15]
C
Let's see. Well, yeah, we've got an amp coming out in February that's got a new preamp. Not a Chimera style preamp. It's, it's kind of inspired by, I swear I'm not making this up, but the dumble sound and some PV engineering stuff that, that I like from the 70s and that's going to be called the Redland. I think it's coming out in January or February. And then I hired Sours to do some pro audio to help me develop some pro audio stuff. So we're, we're kind of, we've been dipping our toes on that pretty heavily. Like other than the 700 watt thing.
- [45:59]
B
Two vacuum tube Pro audio stuff.
- [46:04]
C
Yep.
- [46:05]
B
Like live sound?
- [46:08]
C
No, it's for recording preamps we're both big, I mean sources Grammy in this. I'm just an enthusiast. We both really like recording preamps and recording gear and kind of nerd out about that stuff quite a bit. So we're going to be developing preamps and compressors and all sorts of fun stuff.
- [46:33]
D
I'm really, really excited about that stuff. That stuff is really cool.
- [46:38]
C
And then we got some pedals, but those are basically just tonal GI Joes that come and go. Yeah, that's about it. Things are pretty calm in Benson land these days.
- [46:53]
A
We got 19 employees.
- [46:56]
C
Yeah, but they're.
- [46:57]
A
You don't have to do anything.
- [46:59]
C
I honestly like, I wouldn't change a thing about my employees at, at the moment they're. Everyone's just doing their job and such great attitudes. Like they actually make my job easy.
- [47:12]
A
Here's a good question. How many of these employees had amp building experience before you hired them? How did you find them? Like how do you find talent for. I mean there's not a Roberto Venn really like there is in guitar making for amplifiers.
- [47:29]
C
I hired. When Matt Dawson retired to Intel, I hired all of his guys who had a lot of repair and building. So there's three of them. Jason, who's kind of our main repair tech guy these days, was building quite a. Quite a bit as well. I think the rest of them don't have any experience at all, so. Oh no. Corey, our pedal guy, well, pedal manager guy used to work at Jack Deville Electronics. So he, you know that dude has made like 20,000 guitar pedals single handedly. So yeah, most of them don't have any experience though. We just kind of train them up and hand them a soldering iron.
- [48:25]
A
Wow. And do you. I mean at this point as the. Maybe you're not even the HR department anymore. You must have a method for training people on how to solder.
- [48:35]
C
Yeah, I mean we kind of stratified. I mean it used to be just like a straight up pirate ship where there was no like structure or maybe pirates had more structure than we had. I don't know. But I have, you know, we have division managers at this point. Like Ellie does all of the upholstery and assembly and is in charge of our warehouse situation. And then we've got a main operations manager, Ryan and then Corey and Petals and Griffin managing all the wiring. So you know, there's definitely, definitely a leadership team there and they, they do the training. Like, you know, it's not like I'm sitting there showing someone how to put a capacitor in I, they literally take care of all of it, which is, which is really nice. It kind of, kind of frees me up to do what I need to do, like write emails all day, every day. This is kind of my main job.
- [49:36]
A
What a heartwarming story that an amp nerd who's passionate enough now has a leadership team. If you work hard enough, everybody, you can be like, you can be like.
- [49:48]
B
Chris, didn't you use a leadership team once in a while?
- [49:52]
C
Jason?
- [49:52]
A
I need a leadership team.
- [49:56]
C
Yeah.
- [49:57]
B
Wow.
- [49:58]
C
It is, it is really nice if you find the, the exact right weirdos for the job.
- [50:05]
A
Brian, are you still surprised by the weird requests you get for Transformers? Now that you've mentioned how many, like, skus you have, I would have to think, like, all the transformer needs in the world would be filled. But do you still get oddball requests from these boutique makers?
- [50:22]
D
Constantly. Constantly. And do you do a lot of times? No, I can't. You know, it's just the thing. I, you know, I don't, I'm still designing everything and I, I don't want to turn that over to anyone else. I don't want to. That's. I need that. That's, that's what drives me.
- [50:42]
C
So.
- [50:43]
D
And plus, you know, I mean, my name's on it. It's, you know, it has to be something that kind of resonates with how I want to hear things. You know, it has to be, oh, God, I can't believe I'm going to say this. It has to be the sour strike sounds, but I had to do it. But, yeah, so we can't do everything. And you know, furthermore, like I was describing, you know, when we started with how things are, you know, we need, we need some quantity in order to do, you know, really oddball designs. And a lot of times people really just want kind of like a modification on something we already make. So of course we're happy to do that, you know, but also, you know, part of my whole thing is I want to, I don't, I shouldn't use the word educate, but that is really what it is to kind of, you know, show that there's more going on with these components than, you know, we'll, we'll just say, you know, companies in the past have, have, you know, explained to their clientele and so, yes, there's a lot of options, but, you know, people need to know what those options and what those modifications change about, you know, an original type transformer, really. But, but yeah, there's, there's so Much stuff. I mean, I've talked to people about, like, custom core material. It's, it's, it never surprises me, the imagination that builders, not just guitar amp builders, but just gear people in general come up with. And it's endless, which is great because, you know, I have lots of ideas that I can't realize. So a lot of times my job is kind of having a longer conversation with someone and kind of listening to, like, what drives them, you know, what tickles their ear, for lack of a better word, and learning that and then saying, hey, you have this idea for this. I have this idea for something kind of like this. What if we did something that, you know, does both of that and I get to kind of live a little like through the builder? It says if I get to kind of build some stuff sometimes myself. So, yeah, it's part of the job. It's the part of the job I really, really like.
- [52:55]
A
Skip, do we need a custom truth about vintage amps Transformer that we sell to our listeners?
- [53:05]
B
We don't necessarily need one, but we might want one.
- [53:09]
A
We can't even get shirts made.
- [53:13]
B
Yeah, well, you know, the interleavings, the inner, the bobbin material of the shirts concerns me a lot.
- [53:22]
C
I know.
- [53:23]
B
Gotta be, it's gotta be, gotta be right now. It always boils down to someone, a person going, Ayn Rand here for the literate, a single person saying, no, this is, this is how I'm going to do it. I like that. You know, sometimes people will say, do you, you know, do you ever take apprentices? And I always think, well, who's going to want somebody goes through all that work to get, get me some old piece of an old amp, you know, piece of junk. They don't want an apprentice to fix it. They want me to fix it. Right? So there's nothing, there's just nothing to be substituted for one person seeing it a certain way and doing it that way and both of you guys. But again, keep. That's. It's easy to. It's easy to be one person doing that, but to have your little sort of industry cruising along and other people working for you and depending on, depending on you and that sort of thing. That's, that's very noteworthy.
- [54:26]
C
Thanks. It's, it's, it is difficult and there's.
- [54:33]
D
A lot of learning to it.
- [54:34]
C
Like, I never wanted to be a boss or have a bunch of employees. I thought I was going to be wiring out some of my underwear in my garage for the rest of my life.
- [54:43]
D
But.
- [54:45]
C
Yeah, it's kind of a. It's a learned skill.
- [54:48]
B
Are either one of you single?
- [54:51]
C
No, sir. That's actually why I'm not in my garage. That's why I'm trying so hard.
- [54:57]
B
Well, that's a question I ask potential customers and people with amp questions all the time. And you guys case I would say, hey, guys left all by themselves sometimes, you know, get pretty far down the rabbit hole. But if you have other people around you that depend on you, say, hey, put that down. It's time to make dinner.
- [55:21]
D
Right?
- [55:22]
B
So it's all part of the plan.
- [55:27]
C
The.
- [55:28]
A
The Wood Wire Volts festival weekend is January 22nd to 24th, 2026. Really the only reason to go to Anaheim, California during that time of year. Our buddy Grez will be there. You can hear grez through a 700 watt amp if you want. Do people buy tickets in advance for Woodwire Volts or do you just show up at the door? I should know this.
- [55:54]
C
Actually have no idea.
- [55:55]
A
Okay.
- [55:56]
C
I think. I think it's ticketed. I know you have to pay something to get in.
- [56:00]
A
Yeah. And damn, guys. I mean, I would say you should bring this to the 2026 Fretboard Summit, too, but how are you going to ship it? And it's not your amp to ship, but, yeah, I can't even wrap my head around this. I hope that you can send us at least photos of the transformer or maybe some of the parts spread out on the dining room table just so we can kind of wrap our heads around it.
- [56:28]
C
Yeah, I will literally be assembling, like, bolting the transformers to the chassis later today. So I'll send both of you guys some iPhone shoves.
- [56:39]
A
Yeah. I hope this is not the last time we hear from you. I hope that this is a safe endeavor.
- [56:44]
B
I want to hear someone playing it outside with no pa.
- [56:48]
C
I think we're going to try to set it up in the warehouse and maybe invite some amp people over at some point in January before driving it down to the Wood Wire bolt show.
- [57:01]
A
Yeah. How are you driving it down? Do you have the van picked out or the truck?
- [57:05]
C
No, I think I have to rent a sprinter van because it's not going to fit in a regular minivan. So, yeah, I've priced out some sprinters, and then I'm from the. From that show. I'm going to drive it to its ultimate destination, which is, you know, another halfway across the country endeavor. So I'll be gone from home for a week and a half. Two weeks.
- [57:31]
B
A man and his amp. Against the Elements.
- [57:41]
D
Around the country.
- [57:42]
B
Yeah.
- [57:45]
A
That. Probably the one piece of guitar gear you can just leave in your van. If somebody wants to actually lift it and steal it, it's okay. While you're at the Denny's. No, they wanted it more than you did.
- [57:56]
B
No. I don't know. It's. It's irreplaceable. He just goes in with you. Just put it right. Just get the. Just get the little nook corner and put it right in there.
- [58:06]
A
Wheel it into the apple. Applebees and.
- [58:08]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [58:09]
C
Yeah. One of the reasons I want a sprinter is I'm gonna. I'm not gonna leave that alone, especially not between here and Los Angeles. So I'm gonna be sleeping in that van with, like, a. The croquet mallet or something.
- [58:28]
B
Yeah.
- [58:28]
D
It would.
- [58:29]
C
It would be insane if someone stole that, but.
- [58:33]
A
Well, I'm totally impressed by all that you guys have done. Can't thank you enough for kind of spilling the beans on our podcast about it.
- [58:42]
C
And thanks for having us.
- [58:44]
D
Yeah, thank you very much.
- [58:46]
A
I was vowing not to go to Anaheim the weekend of January 22nd, and now I kind of feel obligated again, so that sucks for me.
- [58:57]
B
I don't want to go to the R guitar show in Marin, but now I'm kind of getting roped in for Saturday only, you know, weather permitting. So we're just old. We got to leave it to these young, adventurous guys to drive around the country in their sprinter van and their 700 watt amp. Yeah. With a big extension cord. We got to be able to steal electricity, like, right from one of those big towers that runs through the middle of the valley. You know, that brings the power from the power plants and stuff. Right.
- [59:28]
C
Just. Well, I think Brian can make a transformer for that.
- [59:31]
D
Right.
- [59:31]
B
There you go. Get it right. Get it right to the high voltage. Right from the hydro plant. No, it's fantastic. And thanks for squeezing in a quick little extra holiday thing. And we never know what to talk about, so we count on questions or groovy guests to pick up the ball or the croquet mallet and keep us. Give us something to talk about. Thank you.
- [59:59]
C
Yeah. Thanks for having us. Yeah.
- [60:01]
D
Always a pleasure, guys. Always a pleasure.
- [60:03]
B
I can't say logging truck anymore referring to amp. Amps now, because, I mean, what would this thing be?
- [60:11]
A
Yeah, this thing is like one of those mining operation trucks where the wheels.
- [60:15]
B
Are bigger than I. Yeah. The big mines, like. Yeah, exactly. One of those movers. Yeah. Carries 10 tons they had when they were making some part of that Equipment to build the first nuclear reactor. They had some tanks that weighed 14 tons that they had to strap down to the concrete because the magnetic pull of this thing that they had made cyclotron or something from, from way on the other side of the building was pulling these things across the. Across the concrete magnet that would pull 14 tons of material across the concrete. So I would say that the. Have you got a name for this amp yet?
- [60:58]
A
Oh yeah, that's a good question.
- [61:00]
B
Because it will probably move a 14 ton tank across the floor as well and it might light the atmosphere on fire. Those guys were worried about that on that first test. They thought, well, what if it spontaneously combusts the whole entire atmosphere and we're burned the whole planet to a crisp. So might want to watch. Might want to watch for that when you first light this thing up.
- [61:23]
C
Well, it's like AI they probably figured the Russians were going to do it anyways, so they might as well do it first.
- [61:29]
A
Can you say what you're calling this thing or is that a surprise to you?
- [61:33]
C
Yeah, we were going to call it the Hubris, but I think we settled on Babylon.
- [61:40]
A
Babylon. Perfect.
- [61:42]
C
Benson Babylon.
- [61:44]
A
The practice amp you didn't know you needed, but absolutely.
- [61:49]
B
Does it have a power switch?
- [61:53]
D
No.
- [61:55]
B
Power scaling?
- [61:56]
D
No. Hell no.
- [61:59]
B
Isn't there an attenuator? See, I got, I get, I get, I get these guys, man. And you notice I didn't say who the hell's going to ever want that? That's way too big. No, no, no, that's. This is. You guys built it because you can. And so some, some lucky people will get to see the end result of some fired up loonies. Gotta love it.
- [62:23]
D
We know everyone in the country is going to hear the result of it.
- [62:29]
A
Yeah. Do you, do we know who the first. Maybe it's the client, maybe it isn't. Do we know who the first person to publicly playthrough this is going to be?
- [62:39]
C
We were trying to get J Maskus but I, I texted him about it and he wrote back Jesus, sick. But then no other information, so I don't know what that means.
- [62:55]
A
It could be a.
- [62:55]
C
No.
- [62:56]
B
I'm hoping you can stand over there. You know, when he plays it, you're going to need the, The Albert Collins 100 foot, you know, guitar cord so he could stand over there.
- [63:06]
D
I think. Wasn't, wasn't Weird Al Yankovic thrown around to be the inaugural user?
- [63:12]
C
Yeah, we wanted him to play accordion through it.
- [63:14]
B
Yeah, perfect.
- [63:16]
D
Yeah.
- [63:16]
B
And a rock. Yeah. Oh boy.
- [63:20]
C
Bill Frizzell's bassist, Luke Bergman, is an amazing pebble steel player, and we're trying to get him to maybe do the inaugural thing that we figured it'd be perfect. Pretty amazing to hear a pedal steel in a warehouse through a 700 watt amp, but I'm not sure. I think we're still waiting on them.
- [63:38]
B
Everyone's gonna need one now.
- [63:42]
A
Yeah.
- [63:45]
D
I hope not. I really hope not.
- [63:48]
C
Yeah.
- [63:50]
B
Well, Jason, we did it.
- [63:51]
A
We did do it. Yeah, they did it. We just. We just shared the story. It's easy enough for us to record on Zoom. These guys actually made something.
- [64:00]
B
Yeah, true.
- [64:01]
C
We haven't done it yet, but we're close.
- [64:03]
B
Don't call them for the next couple weeks. They're going to be busy.
- [64:07]
A
Yeah. You said it's going to take you three days to wire it. Was that your expectation, Chris?
- [64:12]
C
I mean, I. I have no idea. Everything's going slower with it just because of the scale. Like, it took me, like, four hours last night to print the face plates and the. The front plate and the rear plate just because of the size of them. Everything.
- [64:28]
B
Take your time. Just do it perfect, and everything will be fine.
- [64:32]
D
Yeah, well, if you don't do it perfect, you start a fire. Is pretty much. That's the reality of it.
- [64:38]
B
No, you'd light the atmosphere on fire, and then. Then where would you be?
- [64:43]
C
Yeah. For fans of plasma and smoke.
- [64:47]
A
Well, hats off to you guys. Good luck. I can't wait to see the finished result. And thanks for being a part of the Last Truth about vintage amps of 2025. You guys have a podcast too, right?
- [65:01]
C
Yeah, it's more like fart jokes and irrelevant information, but it's called Amplified nonsense, and we have it with Charles at Silkdome, and we just kind of hang out on the Internet, apparently. Okay.
- [65:15]
D
And Emily over at Get Offset as well, is kind of like our. She's like our Raz. You know, try to keep us in line and keeps us from. Well, from deviating too far into fart jokes.
- [65:27]
A
Love it. All right, well, if folks have made it their way through all 158 episodes of the Truth About Vintage Amps and need to find something on their long holiday drives, go check that out. And thanks as always, guys. You're real inspiration to the entire tube amp community.
- [65:44]
C
Now you guys are. Thanks for everything you do.
- [65:47]
B
Thank you.
- [65:49]
D
Thank you so much, y'.
- [65:50]
B
All.