Chris Palmer "You’re the Damn Police, Go Do Police Shit"

Summary

The TTPOA Podcast - Episode: "You’re the Damn Police, Go Do Police Shit" with Chris Palmer

Release Date: December 2, 2024
Host/Author: TTPOA Host
Guests: Chris Palmer

---

Introduction

In this episode of The TTPOA Podcast, hosts Derek and Brandon engage in an in-depth conversation with Chris Palmer, a seasoned police officer with 25 years of experience in Arizona's metropolitan areas. The discussion delves into critical aspects of police work, including training, tactics, leadership, and the cultural challenges faced by first responders.

Guest Background

[02:25] Chris Palmer:
Chris Palmer introduces himself succinctly, emphasizing his quarter-century tenure as a police officer in Arizona. This extensive experience forms the foundation of his insights into effective policing and training methodologies.

Training and Personal Responsibility

One of the central themes of the episode is the assertion that many criticisms about police training overlook the efforts already being made within agencies.

• Chris Palmer:
  “Cops need more training. I've got training.” [03:38]

  Palmer challenges the notion that additional training is universally needed, suggesting that many departments already provide substantial training but fail to emphasize personal accountability.

• Derek:
  “Why are we here? Like, you need more training.” [04:32]

  This rhetorical question underscores the discussion about whether the focus should be on increasing training resources or enhancing individual dedication to existing programs.

Cultural Challenges and Accountability

The conversation shifts to the cultural issues within policing, particularly the resistance to change and the lack of accountability for underperforming officers.

• Chris Palmer:
  “We are our own worst enemy in that. We allow a narrative to go out without answering it or just being reasonable about it.” [06:13]

  Palmer criticizes the internal defense mechanisms that protect underperformers, hindering overall departmental effectiveness.

• Brandon:
  “It's a defense mechanism. They can use that to avoid taking personal responsibility.” [06:13]

  Highlighting how complaints about training can mask deeper issues of personal and professional accountability.

Instructor Development and Effective Training

A significant portion of the dialogue addresses the shortcomings in developing competent instructors within police departments.

• Chris Palmer:
  “How do we develop people internally? That is a void we have.” [47:03]

  Palmer points out the gap in properly training instructors who can effectively convey critical skills to officers.

• Derek:
  “Most instructors aren't built to teach effectively. They just have certifications.” [48:56]

  The need for a more rigorous instructor training process is emphasized, moving beyond mere certification to ensuring practical teaching competence.

Scenario-Based Training and Realism

The hosts and Palmer discuss the importance of realistic, scenario-based training that prepares officers for unpredictable situations.

• Chris Palmer:
  “There is nothing good that has ever come from talking to the police.” [66:44]

  A perspective highlighting the necessity for officers to master effective communication and de-escalation techniques through practical scenarios.

• Brandon:
  “When you use those tactics, you're making them better critical thinkers.” [55:18]

  Emphasizing that realistic training scenarios enhance officers' critical thinking and decision-making skills in the field.

Use of Force Policies and De-Escalation Techniques

The episode delves into the complexities of use of force, advocating for clear policies and the importance of de-escalation.

• Chris Palmer:
  “Our job is not to decide who lives and dies. Our job is to make people safe.” [56:27] [56:55]

  Palmer argues that the fundamental responsibility of police is to ensure public safety rather than making life-and-death decisions.

• Derek:
  “We need to hold officers to a higher standard and ensure they understand the ‘why’ behind their actions.” [58:00]

  The necessity of officers articulating and understanding the reasoning behind their use of force is highlighted to maintain accountability and public trust.

Community Relations and Body Cameras

The interaction between police and the community, especially through the lens of body camera footage, is scrutinized.

• Chris Palmer:
  “When someone watches your BWC and it gets broadcast... it just looks like chaos.” [10:50]

  Discussing how body camera footage can skew public perception if not contextualized properly.

• Brandon:
  “Positive reinforcement from body cams can validate good behavior and set examples for others.” [30:58]

  Highlighting the potential of body cameras to showcase commendable officer conduct, thereby fostering better community relations.

Mentorship and Leadership within Police Teams

Emphasizing the role of mentorship and effective leadership in shaping competent officers.

• Brandon:
  “As instructors, we need to mentor officers continuously and provide constructive feedback.” [16:25]

  The importance of ongoing mentorship in enhancing officer performance and adherence to departmental standards.

• Chris Palmer:
  “Chalk it away, put it in the memory bank, try to pass it on.” [45:30]

  Advocating for a culture of learning from mistakes and reinforcing positive behaviors through shared experiences.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up with the hosts expressing their appreciation for Chris Palmer's candid insights and his contributions to law enforcement training.

• Derek:
  “Chris, I always enjoy how you approach things with common sense and relay them effectively to the end user.” [84:12]

• Brandon:
  “Your explanation of de-escalation techniques really helps in understanding their practical application.” [75:30]

Palmer’s pragmatic approach and emphasis on personal responsibility, effective communication, and realistic training methodologies provide valuable takeaways for first responders aiming to enhance their professional capabilities.

---

Notable Quotes:

1. Chris Palmer:
   “Cops need more training. I've got training.” [03:38]

2. Chris Palmer:
   “We are our own worst enemy in that. We allow a narrative to go out without answering it or just being reasonable about it.” [06:13]

3. Chris Palmer:
   “Our job is not to decide who lives and dies. Our job is to make people safe.” [56:27]

4. Brandon:
   “When you use those tactics, you're making them better critical thinkers.” [55:18]

5. Derek:
   “We need to hold officers to a higher standard and ensure they understand the ‘why’ behind their actions.” [58:00]

6. Chris Palmer:
   “Don't violate principles. Do whatever you want. Yeah, other than that. Go for it.” [81:34]

---

Key Takeaways:

• Personal Responsibility: Emphasizing that individual officers must take ownership of their training and professional development.

• Accountability: The necessity of establishing and maintaining high standards within departments to prevent complacency and underperformance.

• Effective Training: Advocating for realistic, scenario-based training that equips officers with practical skills for unpredictable situations.

• Instructor Development: Highlighting the need for robust training programs to develop competent instructors who can effectively impart critical skills.

• Community Relations: Utilizing body camera footage constructively to build trust and demonstrate positive police-community interactions.

• Leadership and Mentorship: The role of experienced officers in guiding and mentoring newer recruits to uphold departmental values and standards.

---

This episode serves as a compelling discourse on the multifaceted challenges within law enforcement, advocating for a balanced approach that combines rigorous training, personal accountability, and effective community engagement to foster a competent and trustworthy police force.

Transcript

[Chris Palmer]

Foreign. Welcome to the TTPOA Podcast, a podcast for SWAT officers, military and all first responders. We'll be talking training, tactics and leadership with the best subject matter experts around. Here are your hosts, Derek, Brandon.

[Derek]

Well, howdy, y'all. How do y'all. How y'all doing out there in podcast land? We're still on the air, we think so. We're happy about that. Graham's doing a great job of his rookie season. We've been coaching him through and giving you some tips, and you're doing good, man. I'm proud of you.

[Brandon]

Well, I appreciate you letting me sit over here and run everything while you.

[Derek]

Sit back and talk.

[Brandon]

You're. You'd make a great supervisor.

[Derek]

I know, right? Yeah.

[Brandon]

So I appreciate you. The delegation. You've got that done.

[Derek]

Yeah, I know. Normally, like, the new guy comes in and you don't have as many responsibilities now that you're the new guy, you got all this shit, but you're way smarter than me. You're the technical guy and, you know, I got faith in you. That's why you were chosen, right?

[Brandon]

I'm the technical guy, then we're in trouble, that's all.

[Derek]

Well, Derek was a technical guy.

[Brandon]

Okay, never mind. We're just going to be better then. Yes.

[Derek]

So it's a big improvement right there.

[Brandon]

Just.

[Derek]

Just that.

[Brandon]

Then the Hulk trying to press buttons over here.

[Derek]

The first time we did it, was it very comical and stuff. So, man, I'm excited about our. Our next guest. He's our keynote speaker for this year's 40th anniversary conference. So it's Chris Palmer. So we've had Chris on last year. And then Chris has a presence on Instagram. We. He just has a present presence in the training world, the police world, so. Which is really cool. Graham has a big background in training just through TTPOA, with being Region 7 director and just being involved in our organization, and obviously me with Region 7. So training is a passion with everybody at this table, and I think it's a good topic to discuss. And Chris, tonight you're speaking on what? Training in general. Right. We kind of brought you out here. You were the cheapest we could get. So we love it and stuff. So like I said, we don't have any script. We're just like, hey, let's just talk about shit. Kind of like it was last night at the hospitality suite. Hey, let's just. How long was that conference conversation on? Two hours.

[Chris Palmer]

Yeah, we were talking. We're just rapping for about two hours.

[Derek]

Yeah. So that. That's cool. So, Chris, give us a little quick background that way of if anybody doesn't know who you are, they're like, oh, okay, that guy. I'll listen to him now. So just real quick, and then we'll jump into it, man.

[Chris Palmer]

I've been a police officer in Arizona for about 25 years. Like, I don't. That's it.

[Derek]

There you go.

[Brandon]

It's good.

[Derek]

There you go. I like it. I like it.

[Brandon]

And you're in a large metropolitan area, correct?

[Derek]

Out there?

[Chris Palmer]

Yeah.

[Derek]

So SWAT guys now range and. And all that. So a lot of. A lot of. What are you seeing now in the training police world? Good, bad. What do you think? What's going on?

[Chris Palmer]

I want to say it's good. That's what I want to talk about tonight is basically like, culturally, where are we at and whose problem is it? Because everybody seems to have a problem. Like, we need more of this. We're not doing this. Right. We're not. But nobody's got a solution.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

And I think maybe we're already doing. We're already providing. At least that's. Let me digress a little bit. Like, I hear people say all the time, cops need more training. Yeah, Right. Cops can't shoot. Cops this, cops that. And I think a lot of guys take that personally. And every time I hear it, I'm like, well, they're not talking about me. They. I can shoot.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Cops need more training. I've got training. Cops can't do this. Cops cover police training in general. Sucks. You know, they're not. They don't give them good training. They're not talking about my agency. We provide very good training. And in the end, it's. I even look back, like we talked about last night, when you look, if you want. I don't care how far you want to go back. You want to go Back to the 40s, the principles and the basic fundamentals are there. It looked goofy when the hand in the air and shooting kind of from the hip, but the end goal was there's a target. You have to hit the target.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

And we still can't do that. So why? What do you mean? We need more training. Like, there's a training. You have to be able to do this. As far as shooting goes, you got to be able to do this Right. We can't accomplish that. So is it the training's fault? Like, well, we need someone to speak better. We need someone to show, like, hold my hand and do this better. Or do we actually, as individuals, professionals, need to Shut the fuck up and go to work. That's what I'm asking everybody tonight is like, why are we here?

[Derek]

Right?

[Chris Palmer]

Like, you need more training. Okay, well, you guys are coming to TTPOA. This organization for 40 years has been assisting and helping people get training.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

And setting standards and kind of like, you know, pushing forward and saying, hey, maybe we could do this better. Why don't we get a group together and help people at least access what's needed for that? And the Training's evolved over 40 years.

[Derek]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

But I don't think the principles have.

[Brandon]

No, the mission has stayed the same. You're right.

[Chris Palmer]

You're the damn police. Yeah, go do police. Like, I know, like, like on Instagram. We'll talk about, like, well, how. What's the best kata for cqb and how should I grip this? And what the. What's the best rifle? And in the end, it doesn't really matter. Like, I don't care what pistol shoot, I don't care what rifle shoot. What are you doing with it to get better with it? Yeah, well, my agency only lets me do this. Okay, so how can you do that the best? Like, are you really invested in getting better or do you just like to complain about it?

[Derek]

Cops love to complain. I've heard a story years ago is like, hey, cops hate change. And they bitch about when there is change. It's like, no matter what, whatever you do, if we change something, we bitch. But you're bitching about we want to change something. Then when they do change it, it's an ever ending cycle. And I think it comes back down to personal responsibility. Because at the end of the day, like, if you look at it like a corporation, sales, Sales is based on whether you do it or not. If you, if you're hustling, you're gonna have sales. If you don't hustle, you're not gonna have sales, you get fired. Here you can just sit and do nothing and get paid to do nothing. That's the reality of our job. I mean, we all know it. We've all seen it.

[Brandon]

No, you think? I think, I think, guys, it's a defense mechanism. Like that complaint process of, for guys that they can, they can use that and, well, we only get so many rounds of ammo per year. I was like, okay, this is something that your life is going to depend on, so maybe you ought to go out and, and, you know, get a membership to arrange and go out there and work on the. Like you said, the principles and concepts that the instructor has given you because it works like he's, he's proven in class that you're putting, you know, rounds on paper and it's a zone stuff and it's hits and the times are good, but yet that's, that's a perishable skill. So if you're waiting to come back again for your annual in service training, that's essentially on you. I think that's what, you know, it's that extreme ownership. Like, you have to, like, you signed up for this, right? You signed up to go into that building to save those lives. Yeah.

[Derek]

And I think too, like, for me, I mean, I've, I will continue to, to discuss things that I'm not happy with, that go on in the police community. But I'm also not a guy who just gives you a bunch of, hey, I'm gonna about this, but never have a solution to this or never go. Yeah, I hate that that happened. But okay, guess what? We gotta go do this. We gotta go find a training facility. We gotta go. You still gotta go train. You still gotta go perfect your craft. And, and there's, there's things that you just can't control, but you're pissed off. The DA doesn't do this and all that. But what you're talking about is, hey, I'm just gonna, and I'm not doing anything about making myself a better craftsman at what I'm doing. And, but you see it all the time, right?

[Chris Palmer]

But I mean, the, the, the, the dislike of it, the bitching is, is justifiable and it's reasonable. And then I look at all the different aspects where it comes from. I've got, I was in the military, I got friends that are in the military still and guys that have retired. And it's then civilians and then, you know, there's, there's these, these chambers that come out and they're like, cops need this. And it comes from the civilian side and it's like, hey, well, take a step back and go, why do they think that way? What have we done to show that we're doing better and that, you know, we can show them, yes, we are doing these, this training? And the mill guy saying, the cops should do this, Right. I had a discussion with a buddy the other night and you know, it's the argument of, well, the recruiter was open for everybody. If you wanted to do this, you know, SEAL shit or you wanted to come over here and be in the military, you should have come and done it. And then I tell those guys, I'm like. Yeah, but the police recruiters open too.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

So you're 30 years old, you just got out of the military and you're telling the cops what they should be doing. Go put an application in, get through the background. Go, go write a beat a little bit and get it. Get a feel for what is actually required and then maybe make some change in those agencies. A small one or a big one or like whatever it is.

[Derek]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

But it's the same argument. Don't tell the military what to do unless you've been in it.

[Derek]

Cool.

[Chris Palmer]

Shut the fuck up. If you think the cops should do it a certain way and you have these skill sets and you believe you're really good at it and you want to do it, then go put an application in. Yeah, I don't want to fucking do that. It doesn't pay. No, the. Shut the fuck up. No, it's, it's. It's a pain in the ass job at times.

[Derek]

Yeah, no, it is the.

[Brandon]

And you know, you get on that where. And like I said, what spurs, that certain level of that. I'm going the civilian side now that you're mentioning is the people going, oh, they need more de escalation training. Because look at that trooper down there in Texas. He didn't know how he got mad. He didn't know how to talk to that. I was like, that's one video. I go, you know how many officers are out there de escalating and just talking people down all the time. Right. And they're not on video because they're really good at it, man.

[Chris Palmer]

Hundreds of minutes.

[Brandon]

Yes, yes.

[Chris Palmer]

Hundreds a minute are just good conversations with people that don't. They don't escalate. Because guys are very good at just like, hey, you know, you're going to someone's house and you know, we always say it's the worst time of their life, but I mean, in general, it is like you get a call to a, you know, air quotes, bullshit burglary call.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

But like, imagine your house got broke into. This is the only police interaction this person's ever had.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

You show up and it's like, I would be pissed if someone broke in my house. Like, it's traumatic for these people. Like treat, you know, have some, I don't know, empathy towards that.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

And we do get burned out and we get guys that get frustrated. I'd love to talk about de escalation because it is talking to people and making a little bit of body camera theater and radio theater and being able to express and we teach our guys this in our less lethal schools is allow the individual to demonstrate so clearly to everybody else why you had to use force.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Like drop a gun. Drop the gun drill. Like, stuck in a loop. They're stuck in a loop. We're screaming and yelling, and it just looks like chaos. And we tell them that when someone watches a body camera. And I know we're going off on weird topics.

[Brandon]

No, actually, I like this.

[Chris Palmer]

It's gonna. Overall, it's gonna end up in the. Where we. Where I think this needs to go.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Not as far as this. But someone watches a body camera, we tell them this in the class, and we pay. We hit play. And they're watching it, and I can see everybody's shoulders start to shrug and stuff, and they're kind of like, you know, afterwards, like, how does everybody feel about that? You, like, uncomfortable?

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

I mean, I think it's freaking mayhem. I'm like, when someone watches your BWC and it gets broadcast on Fox News or ABC or whatever it is, if it feels chaotic and sounds chaotic, it's just like a horror movie. They use sound. They use things like that to stir your emotions and make you get apprehensive. When you can hear people screaming and stuff, people get apprehensive like, fuck, this is about to go bad. And rarely does it ever go like, screaming, screaming, screaming, yelling. Oh, look at that. That worked out well, right? It's usually chaos.

[Derek]

Yes, it is.

[Chris Palmer]

But when it starts, when someone is very calm, people can watch it and be like, I feel like, I know this is getting weird, but I feel safe.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

And I'm just talking about, like, someone watching someone. An officer's bwc. I'm not telling people to fake it. I'm not telling them like, you're putting on a show, but you are actually kind of playing a character as a cop. You're. You have to act. You don't get to be personalized with it. You don't get to be angry or happy or all that stuff. I mean, you can show emotion, but, like, in the end, you're not a robot either.

[Derek]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

But you can do a lot of that in a very calm manner. And the calmer you are, and again, the more clearly they demonstrate why you had to spray them with OC or TASE them. You've. You've gauged their capacity to understand. You've explained to them very clearly the consequences for what's about to happen in a calm manner. And then you act on it when it's appropriate, immediately.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

And don't put it off and put it off and put it off until all of a sudden, now it's mayhem. But, like, the end point of this is, like, I don't think personally, I know there's small. There's departments, small and big, who lack, like, any kind of forward look in training. And are they actually asking the questions of, like, these are the. These are the incidences our employees are involved in, and these are the outcomes that we're getting, and these are the behaviors we're observing in our people and in our community. Are we doing anything to mitigate it or help give them guidance towards doing it better? They're not asking those questions. That's fair. Fine.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

But they're also not going, here's the standard. There's a policy, and there's all these things that exist, but no one's being held to that standard.

[Derek]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

If it is, it's always lowered. Well, shit, that's not working out. Lower it a little bit. Okay, cool. It seems to be going all right, but it keeps to go down, down, down, down. And I think in general, because you have. You have a little small pocket of cops that are just. They shouldn't even be cops. They're just not good at this job. It's not meant for them. And they're on blue welfare just getting a paycheck. And you have extremely high performers at the other end who take it very serious and are absolutely amazing professionals. But the entire middle group is just good at their job. They are. They're good at their job. They're not amazing, and they're not perfect, and they never tell you they would, but they're good at their job. But they're also just humans who are like, what do I got to do? You got to be right here. Okay, I'll be right there. If you were to bump it up 2%, right. 3% of whatever imaginary thing this is, Anything make it a little bit more demanding. They'll just do it.

[Derek]

Yeah, they will.

[Chris Palmer]

We keep going down, but what we need to do, I think, is go up and it's gonna. That's a motivation that can help people go, hey, I need to do this better.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Like, you have to be able to pick up 10 pound weight.

[Brandon]

Cool.

[Chris Palmer]

Everybody can do that. And it's great until someone's like, this is a little. My arm is sore. Well, how about 9.5? And then, okay, we're good. Until then. Until they get. They realize, oh, I can do this. And someone abuses the system. And I think everybody who's here is going to understand. I'm talking about, like, there's systems that get abused.

[Derek]

Yes, for sure.

[Chris Palmer]

If we just stop allowing it, which you can. And, like, talk to your unions, talk to these people and go, stop defending underperformers that make me look bad.

[Derek]

Yeah, I do have an issue with that, because there's times where, like, how, how, how is a police association defending someone we blatantly know is doing dumb shit? Because at the end of the day, we're here for the officers. I understand that. But we're also here for the officers to make it better. Because we have a standard, and this is what we're. We should be doing just the minimum. This is the minimal that you should be doing. And he's not even close to that. Like, I do have an issue with that. I understand what you're saying, because it is wrong. I mean, I, I don't think we're all just, hey, whatever the chief says, you just suck it in. And yeah, it's all good. I mean, they're human. So there's things that you're going to disagree with or there's things that. So it's not being a mouthpiece for the administration. It's just being a. A, here's the standard that we're going to hold our own people to. Like, as a chief, you should want that, and as an organization, you should want that as well.

[Chris Palmer]

And the union should want it. Like, it's. Yeah. I mean, we can parse it to however we want to do, but in the end, we're really here for as a community.

[Derek]

Yeah. Because I'm on our police association. I couldn't tell you how many times you hear a story, oh, blah, blah, blah, did this. Okay, well, let's hear what so and so had to say. And then you start tracking down these rumors, and then you find out what the truth is. There's a lot of times we're like, we're not going to administration with that or we'll go to administration. We're like, hey, here's what we heard. We verified this. What's the story on this? Most of the time, like, we're like, man, what happened to this rumor mill? Like, this is not even close to what happened. So, yeah, you're right. So, yeah, that's very often another topic that we could go down. But let's, let's stick to what we're trying to get accomplished and stuff.

[Brandon]

But what I've seen is, like, you said, if they're not getting involved and said, no, let's hold them to this standard instead of let them, like you said, fall down to this 2%.

[Chris Palmer]

Right.

[Brandon]

The underperformers. What. In from my experience, if. If you don't hold them accountable, right. Then that creates this. Well, you know, so. And so is doing this and then that, that middle of the pack guys you said that are pretty good at it. Declining like the. And not everyone, obviously, but just say that the, the percentages.

[Chris Palmer]

Yeah, the overall group.

[Brandon]

Yeah. And. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And then you'll hear. And I heard. And I. And I hated this as a recruit, like, with an fto, like, when you get cut loose and an FTO and senior is someone I looked up to as an fto. And you're out there and, you know they're backing you up on these traffic stops because you're young, you're trying to. And he's like, hey, man, slow down. It all pays the same. And I'm like, I just look at him and smile. But I'm thinking you should not be saying that to these young officers. Like, you're creating a culture of, like, you said, this. Underperformers. Right.

[Chris Palmer]

You're, you're.

[Brandon]

I go, we should be like, hey, guys, good job, man. If you ever need a backup, I'm come back you up. And I get that, you know, you've kind of been there, done that. So. But I'm like, man, that. That's establishing a rough culture in that. But that goes into what you said, it kind of. It'll affect the entire group.

[Chris Palmer]

Yeah. And I'm not saying, like, administrations need to come down and squash everybody into the ground. Like, you will look this way. And so this is, you know, doing uniform inspections. What's this? And you know, your boots aren't shine, like, but there's a baseline of it that if you elevate the standards or you put them there, and I'm talking acceptable, not like super SWAT cop for everybody. This is what you know. And guys will argue that too. Like, you should be able to do a build drill in under two seconds. You should be able to do this and that. And it's. You have discussions, people like, do you realize how good that is? Yeah, like, that's. It's ridiculous levels of skill. Yes, it really is. And for everybody, that. For everyone that can do it, you're. You're very good shooter. It's good and it's good enough. Right. But in Mark and Smith and I talk about, like, good enough is right. I don't know what that is, and we talked about the other night like, well, how fast should I be able to do a build drill? I'm like, well it doesn't matter if you walk up and shoot you while you're ambush you in your car. There is no fast enough. Yeah. But in the moment, like can you do these things? Can we all agree that there's certain things that you should be able to do and if you can do them, you, we've accomplished the training, now it's up to you to maintain it. And here, as long as we make those standards, I think the majority of officers are going to meet them. Even if it's a communication center, this is how I expect you to interact with people. And it as a, like a supervisor, it doesn't need to be a, here's your written suspension. You did this and that. It's just, hey man, that's just, I'm disappointed in the way you handled that call.

[Derek]

Yeah, and, and I think too like, I mean I started 23 years old and there's a lot I, I was fortunate just I had a lot of life experience of already had a kid, you know, and just my, my, my bringing up my background. But you take someone who, you know, 21, 22, 23, that man went to college for a few years. I got my degree, I don't have kids, I've never. And this is your first big boy job. That, that's a hard transition to, to make. It was a hard transition for me as well. Now I'm dealing with a 55 year old man that's having marital issues and now I'm in his house and stuff and it's different. So there's times where we need, we do need to mentor, continue to mentor people to go, yeah, hey man, on that call, man, yeah, you got loud. You started yelling like hey man, just try this. Just lower your tone and just tell him, hey man, you need to sit down. When you start yelling, man, you need to sit down. It just raises everything and you do look like an idiot as opposed to say hey man, you need to sit down. There's a whole difference in the tone and things like. But that goes back to what you said of, of officers stepping up and filling in what they, what they should be doing. I mean we, we all see it and I give guys grace. I mean a guy new comes on the team, I'm not expecting you day one to be able to do a five set room and remember everything in the room and, and, and process and, and yeah, I did this per man, you're not going to do that. So why are we holding young guys to the standard and going, oh, we're gonna, we're gonna dob your ass, but we're never gonna tell you how to fix it. We're never gonna tell you how to, to get better. And, and it's up to you. Said it's on everybody, not just, I'm quote the trainer of, you know, tactics or trainer, hey, or I'm just an, I'm not an fto, so I don't worry about it. Man, fuck that, dude. This is your department. You should have pride in it whether you're an FTO or not. Like, if a guy's been, just needs to know, he needs to know, tell him. But we don't do that because it all pays the same.

[Chris Palmer]

It all pays the same. Like, I, I don't even know. Like, I, I wander off on topics like, I think we need to have these discussions though, like, even at the baseline level. So you're talking about like recruits and in the academy, I've asked like, why do we try to treat this like some kind of fake ass boot camp? Why do we yell at them and make them march around? Well, you know, it instills discipline. I'm like, I don't think it does because if it did, why do we have these problems afterwards? Is it just a, is it a rite of passage? Is it, does it serve a purpose? Or can we start saying this is a professional job so as like from day one, when you get hired, you're treated just like you would treat an officer who's been on for five years and expect them to behave and interact with people and not lock up their body and yet and they're getting yelled at. So like, does that imprint on them? I don't know, but does it imprint on them that that's how, you know, that's how you got interactive. You got to let them know you're serious. Like, if I'm talking to, you know, I'm serious. I don't need to like, you know, you gotta, you gotta yell, let me see your hands. And all this. Like, right? What does it actually do? Are we imprinting that on them? And is it starting at the beginning? Because like you said, they're girl, guy goes to college, pops out, goes to the academy is like, holy shit, they're kind of yelling at me. It's called, it's kind of like tv, I guess. And they tell me to act this way and do these things and they don't know any Better. But if you treated it more like a professional environment where it's just like, hey guys, welcome. Here is what we're going to be doing. And you just immediately treat them and then expect them to act like professionals again. Expectations, yeah, those that cannot, won't if they can't. If, like right off the bat, if you can't act like an adult and be treated, hey, guys, I need you to be here at 3:30. We're gonna go over this, study these things, take care of this. And then we're gonna go over, you know, this piece of case law. We're gonna go over, you know, assaults and how to document them.

[Brandon]

Yeah, I think that goes back to almost the first question we were like, I think we're pretty good when and when Brandon asked your first question. And I think it's a progression because I think you see less of that, in my opinion, that, hey, meet in the morning at, you know, 700 and we're gonna march around the parking lot. And that's what I did in my basic academy. Well, we don't do that any. We'll do a ruck march, kind of like a team building exercise. And the chief will come out and he'll do a ruck. And then at the end they're like, hey, you know, one of our tenants here is excellence. So here's your patch and we're going to talk about excellence, you know, and it's kind of a team building thing. And they're, you know, I think that's really cool that they do it. But like you said, like, hey, here's rules and regulation. We're going to go over these. Not every one of them, but you're expected to know those and bring them back on the weekend after you read them. And you're going to sign that. You understand those. And there you go. We're, you know, we're treating you like an adult and that's kind of how we run ours now.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

And I think that I've seen academies that do it that way and I think they're going to end up having a better product. I get the traditional look at it where like, no, like, that's what I went through. Like, maybe they screwed you over. Maybe.

[Derek]

Well, I think too, like, so we were on our own or we run our own academy. So if I'm there for a while, it doesn't take too long. Man, wait a minute. I'm busting my ass every day. I'm running, I'm doing this. And they're telling me, man, if you don't do this and you're not fit. You know, someone out there is working harder than you. Someone's going to do this. You owe it to your other officer to, to get to that foot chase and, and you believe in it. I mean, and it's truth. That, that's truth. But then you start walking around your, your own department where you're academy is, and you're like, I don't think that guy could probably make it to a foot chase. That person over there, like, I don't, I don't think they could do that either. And then you getting cut loose and you're like, whoa, now the curtain's unveiled and you're like, wait a minute. Really, all I have to do is just show up and then sometimes I don't have to show up or sometimes I just got to do this. And so maybe we should just also just continue to here. Like you said, here's the standard. Just don't fall below that. And the standard is not low. It's up here. Like, why don't. You've been here 15 years, you still need to be able to do this job just like day one. Like, what is the standard to be a police. I don't know what it is. I have no idea. There's some departments that can define it, but for the most part, what is even that standard to be a effective police officer, do you know, Graham?

[Brandon]

Well, it's up to the organizations because I know that DPS here, they still have, like, if you're a certain height, then you're, you're, you know, you have to be a certain weight or your uniform has to be a certain size. So they, they do hold those standards. So it's, it's up, yeah, eventually up to, you know, other than the state saying now you must pass this test and that and have this many hours, you know, mandated hours, continuous training. I go. It's up to the agency, essentially. There's no, there's no state, there's no national standard that I know of. So. But I'm with you and you know, I'm with you. And so when. And I teach at the academy, that's one of my jobs. And so I let the recruits know when it comes to fitness. Right. I was like, hey, you know, like, this is, this is what we're going to expect of you and we're going to try to see some improvement, but we're going to work with you. Like, we're going to work with you throughout the. And we're going to show you, like, if you could do these, this progress, progression, like, and it's, and it's regimented. We have our guys that are experts in that. And at the end where you're going to see improvement. And we, hopefully what we're doing is establishing or instilling, you know, these values. Right. Of how important it is to your, your, I guess, your life out on the streets or someone else's. And, and I let them know. I was like, hey, look, there's some really great officers in the department.

[Derek]

Right.

[Brandon]

And like, I have a lot of respect for the type of work that they do. Yeah, right. Because I've been around them and they're good cops. I said, but they will tell you the guys you mentioned there have gotten themselves out of shape. And I'll tell you, and they'll tell you if they were in better shape, they would be a better overall officer because, like, it doesn't, it doesn't detract from their ability to recognize someone's BS and, or that's a danger. And you know, all these cues are seeing that that's a threat. But again, if they were in better shape, they would be able to handle that threat better. So that's, I was like, didn't make them a better officer overall. Yeah, they are, because they're in better shape for whatever it is.

[Chris Palmer]

I'll be honest, it goes what I think the guy's end goal should be. And I mean, everybody's working towards a retirement, right?

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Like your job should be to collect as many retirement checks as possible. Live to be 99.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Like, go for it. Are we all going to do that? I don't know, but. And I don't know if that's a political view of things to ask or to say that. Do departments care, like, overall, does a, Does a major or a city care if once you've retired, you die in two weeks, which happens where I work, or you only make it a year or two years. And the guys are like, well, you know, if they'd done this and that. And I'm like, then. But they're gambling on you not being healthy. Like you're gambling on you not continuing to live on and be a, you know, air quotes drain on the system.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

They're trying to figure out different ways to get pensions done. And other people like, well, that's not fair. Hey, the recruiter is open to everybody.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

If you can meet the minimum standards to get hired and then maintain a career and survive an entire career, that's the benefit of it. Because it's going to come with some downsides. But the whole idea of health, mental health, all these other things that we play lip service to, again, the overall standard and expectations aren't carried on. It's. No, it's not powered, you know, power DMS training. You check the boxes, you took a test, which is a smart way to do it because they can show. No, you did watch the video and you did do this. But do the. Is that training evaluated? Constantly. Is it in when it's used and when it's in use, when you're talking about communicating with people or writing a report or shooting or running and getting overwalled? Anything.

[Derek]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

Is it evaluated and going, hey, there was. I watched. You know, I had to review this bwc. You had. I like the way you handle these things. But it looked like this was going on and I have a concern with that. I just want to address it. And it like, is it, you know, hey, we train this. And I noticed on this stop, you did the stop this way. Why did you do that? Yeah, I mean, you know, just imaginary scenario. Well, you know, we don't really got to do it. And it's kind of how we do it here. Like in our, this precinct over here, they have the way they do it. I don't think there is a. You don't have a way. You do it over there. There's the right way to do it. So again, we are training people, we are showing them. This is what's expected of you. But we're not holding them to it when they don't do just minor stuff like a traffic stop. Everybody learned how to do it in the academy, right. Hey, this is what you need to do. This is what you need to look for. And yes, we all grow out of the absolute paranoia stage of it. Right. You start to learn what you really need to pay attention to and you start picking up on those weird cues.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

But you still need to handle it a certain way. So. And it isn't. Why isn't it when you get citizen complaints, when you get those things we've talked about at work, like the first harmful event, like when a guy, when his BWC is the one that's put across the news and the shooting is absolutely atrocious and he's in complete panic mode and he's all this stuff that is not the first time that guy's made bad decisions, done these things. It's happened several times. Everybody on the squad. Yeah, he's that guy.

[Brandon]

And what are you doing about that predictable surprise. Yeah, I like that. I like that we. So what I like, like you said, is how are we handling that? Right. What I like is when, say, Officer Hernandez did a great job on this call and he did exactly what we wanted. Like, I mean, he did an excellent job. I reviewed your body camera. Can you tell, you know, tell me what you're thinking, Oh, I did this. And actually this had happened to me before, so it kind of set me up and I have more experience, so I was able to, you know, think outside the box, whatever you did. So. All right, hey, if you're good with it, we're going to, we're going to show this body worn camera in briefing and run a little roll call training. But I want you. So now we're not going, oh, look what, look what Hernandez did.

[Derek]

Bad.

[Brandon]

We're like, hey, look, I guess that's, that's just a great job. And, you know, that's, that's what we expect of everyone to do that job. Right? And he just did a great job that day. So, you know, it gives them that visual clue, you know, as an adult learner, and they're sitting there going, all of that. I love that.

[Chris Palmer]

Yeah, that's the hard part. You need to be. Here's the standards. Do these things. It is too easy. And I don't fault them for it.

[Derek]

I get it.

[Chris Palmer]

It's a human behavior. It's too easy to get complacent and stop doing those things. Stop trying to shoot good. Stop trying to stay in shape. Stop trying to lead your squad as a super supervisor. Right. Briefing, training. Hey, we got these videos. We're going to push them out. Like, your guys did a great job. Push the good ones out. Hey, guys, see how they handle this? This is what we expect. Great job on it. And it isn't even to fluff them up. It's just a reinforcement of positive things. Like, this is, this is what we train you to do. It was done. Please keep doing it. That's all we're asking. That can get old and it can get lazy. Like, I gotta do another briefing thing with squad. Hey, guys, you know, let's just put on YouTube or let's put the games on. Like, I get it. You don't want to be like, you can't be training all the time. No, I'm asking you to do it for 15 minutes before you go on shift. Get your mind right. Yeah, it's. I'm asking you to go dry fire for five minutes. Like, well, that.

[Derek]

And you're at Work? Yeah, you're just, I mean, just you're at work. Like, I'm not asking you on a Sunday at, you know, 10:00am Hey, I want you to go do that. You're at work. So just do work.

[Brandon]

That's the 15 minutes we're going to take out of your day from, you know, running through your phone, looking at, you know.

[Derek]

Yeah, I mean, we all know at the heart of the matter, we get paid for what we might have to do. I mean, we do, because it just is. Going back to your point, Grant, that is a great thing when, when, when you, when you celebrate something that happened that validates what, what we're teaching, what we're doing, what you, what you have put work into. But on the flip side of that, I've also seen it where we validate because it just was luck or it is just we want to make this person feel good because, like, oh, the guy, he tased the dude and he had a gun, man. This is a. He didn't have to take his life. Is that really what we want to be praising and taking away, taking someone's life? I understand that. But the end of the day, that person voted they had a gun. They wanted to do harm to society, so it's their choice. We're reacting, but we just reacted the wrong way. It's a gun and we don't do guns and tasers. But sometimes I've seen that be praised. Or I've seen stuff, I'm like, wait a minute. Oh, well, he showed such great restraint because he didn't really. No, he just, he didn't do what he should have done. So that drives me crazy too. So we've.

[Chris Palmer]

And so I look at that as like, what is the. Again, what's the expectation? Yeah, we expect if you're confronted with this type of event and it doesn't need to be specific to a scenario, but these are the behaviors and responses we support and expect of you. If you deviate from it and can explain to me why you did, then it makes sense.

[Brandon]

Right?

[Chris Palmer]

So I'm not going to, I'm not going to beat up on a guy who tased a guy with a gun. Like, we've had discussions about that with less lethal work where we've 40 milled a whole bunch of people with guns and people are like, you should. I don't know why we're trying less lethal because we're giving the guy a chance. He's 35 yards away acting like a complete fool, and we're giving him A chance to survive. And sometimes it doesn't work out in their favor. They keep can they continue to make decisions, but then they clearly demonstrate again, like we talked before, why we had to go to that level of force. But when it's imminent and it's immediate and it's happening in the moment, we don't expect you, you don't have to de. Escalate yourself.

[Derek]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

And put the community in danger. And like, we got to start learning how to say it. We're not. I hate when dudes, officer safety, your safety, that's your job is not to be safe. Yeah, right. It's community safety. Put them first every single time. If no parts of the community, if no members of the community are in danger, don't make dumb decisions and put yourself in danger. But until then, it isn't about officer safety, it's about public safety.

[Brandon]

And it's about knowing that.

[Derek]

Right.

[Brandon]

And training them that and letting them understand like, hey, innocence and hostages are above, you know, on the, on the priority scale. They're, they're not more important than you, but they're above you. Right. Because this is the job you had signed up to protect them.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

We will take risks.

[Brandon]

Yes.

[Chris Palmer]

And we've discussed that with, you know, little short scenarios with recruits. We put a guy and look, I use this hotel room because we use a room, but you're at that door, Right. You respond to that door and there's a guy in this deep corner in front of his inner. There's tables and stuff kind of in the way. He's over there with a knife. No one else is in this room. Why are you going in the room?

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Work it from outside the door.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Even close the door, I don't give a shit. But like try to talk to that guy. Now it's different if he's in this deep corner and his wife is in the bathroom over here across caddy corner and you come to the door and he's screaming, yelling. It's like you need to get in between those two.

[Brandon]

Exactly.

[Chris Palmer]

Well, what a. You get it now? You got in between them, you forced a confrontation, you had to shoot him. No, I put them above. Their safety was more important than his ill timed decision.

[Derek]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

And we're going to defend that person.

[Derek]

Yes.

[Chris Palmer]

Well, you wouldn't have had to do that if you got them between them. That's ridiculous. Again, that's not our job. That's. I don't know.

[Brandon]

I know, but I like how you're explaining to them the why and you're like, well, no, this is why I'm not just saying to do it.

[Derek]

Right.

[Brandon]

Because you should do that. This is why you need to do that.

[Chris Palmer]

Right.

[Brandon]

Because we've had examples of, you know, and when he makes that decision, he's gonna, you know, go over there and stab her before you're able to get to do that.

[Chris Palmer]

So we explain versus hold.

[Brandon]

You know, I don't love teaching all that. It's.

[Chris Palmer]

We explain to him like people are going to ask the question or people are going to have the thoughts. You have to expect these. If you hadn't gone over there, he wouldn't have charged you with the knife. Yeah, that's ridiculous. I don't.

[Brandon]

You don't know that I'm with you.

[Chris Palmer]

And I don't know that. No, we don't know what he's doing. I could go over, get between me and he could quit. So now do I get to. And I tell them that you do not get to take the wins and you don't have to take the losses. You don't get to say, well, because the officer got in between her. It forced a confrontation and they had to kill him. When the officer goes in between and he gives up, you don't get to then go, well, because the officer got in between them. He got, he gave up.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Nope. It's just. That is what this dude. That's what he decided to do. And we were going to respond to his actions.

[Derek]

Yeah. And he chose every single time.

[Brandon]

I don't want to get, sorry, I don't want to get political, but you know, I teach around the country as well. And depending on what state you're in there they would go, yeah, but here on the left coast, like you guys are in Texas or Arizona, you know, you guys can, you know, be that. I won't say aggressive. Right. But you can use those, employ those tactics. They're like, yeah, but we had this incident and this officer got indicted. Like in California going into the Walmart, he got indicted with a man swinging a bat around at loss prevention. He goes in, tries to tase the guy, didn't work, and he has to shoot the guy. And they're coming back and then doubted him on manslaughter and basically saying that, yeah, that was officer induced jeopardy. If he would have waited on his backup, he may not have had to use that deadly force. But you know what I'm saying? And you're not like, okay, that's completely ridiculous. We have Graham versus Connor. The Supreme Court has ruled on this. But then that's their state enacting legislation saying, oh, now we have this officer induced jeopardy law. Now, you can't charge them with that, but we can. We can look at charging them. A DA can look at a. Charge them with manslaughter.

[Derek]

The process is the punishment, isn't that.

[Brandon]

To me, it just, I'm just like, oh, my goodness. But those guys. And that's why you're probably seeing officers from, you know, Washington state or California coming to Arizona.

[Chris Palmer]

Correct? We do.

[Brandon]

In your lateral office. Yes. So do we. In the Dallas Fort Worth area.

[Derek]

Yeah. And I think too, just going back to that simple scenario, and I've said it many times on here, and I will continue to push this. If you just for the most part, on most things, just act like it's one of your child, your wife, your mom, your grandkid, what would you do if your grandkid was in the next room and he had access to that person, what would you do? Would you stand on the door, go, yeah, get over there. And when you do, I'll try to react it.

[Chris Palmer]

Yeah. It goes on to force a confrontation.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

You're not. They are forcing a conference.

[Brandon]

I agree with you.

[Chris Palmer]

The. The officer induced jeopardy. The reasoning and the way people want to look at that. I don't know what their political beliefs are. I don't know why they feel that they need to do that. But I still feel like we're our own worst enemy in that. That we allow a narrative to go out without answering it or just being reasonable about it. We serve the community.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

We work under the Constitution of the United States. We don't get to make up the rules. So if the community says, this is what we want you to do, you also, again, you signed up to be the police, then you're going to do what the community wants you to do. If they don't want you to go into those situations, you just make it very clear and you educate the other actual taxpaying voters on what's being asked of you. You don't allow it to go behind the scenes and allow it to be misused against you. You get out ahead of it and you go, there is a new law that was passed. It puts our officers in this type of predicament going forward. These are the expectations we're going to lay down. An officer will not interfere at all until they have a backup.

[Derek]

No, but understand, this is what watch people.

[Brandon]

Yeah. People like what? Yes.

[Chris Palmer]

That's the rules.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

Like you. This is what you're telling. You elected this clown this clown wrote this up and then these clowns all pass it. These are now the rules. An officer will not do this unless these criteria are met.

[Derek]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

Well, that's, we can't have you doing that. But then change it.

[Brandon]

Yeah. So, so the, the, the, the husband in there, Right. Attacking his wife is going to keep attacking her until the officer gets back up, coming in. You know, you lay those examples in like you're like, that's crazy. That's insane. I'm, I know, but this is what we're being pressured with in this state.

[Chris Palmer]

But again, it's. What are the, what are the clear expectations and what are the rules? What playbook am I going to play on? Just tell me what the rules are, we'll do them.

[Derek]

And the reality, I'll quit.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Derek]

When you go.

[Brandon]

And that's what they're doing. Some of them are leaving. Like, I can't be a copier. I'm not going to put my family through that because, you know, eventually, yeah, I'll get found not guilty or whatever it's like. But man, you know, getting, you know, having to go to that trial.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

You know what that's like right now? One of your officers.

[Derek]

Yep.

[Brandon]

Having to do that. I mean, it's so stressful on the family.

[Chris Palmer]

And like you, like you said, the, the process is the punishment. So this is, I just lost my train of thought for two seconds, but it'll pop back in my head. You or earlier you said, hey, we get paid for what we might have to do. And I don't like that. You get paid for what you are probably going to have to do.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

It isn't what you might have to do because that allows you to mitigate it and go. It's probably not going to happen to me. No, it's going, it is going to happen to you.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

That is why you have to be good at it. It. Well, but it might not. Yeah, no, it's, it's going to.

[Derek]

But that's the mindset is it might.

[Chris Palmer]

Have happened to every single cop that's been ambushed, that's been in a shooting, that's been in a really good knockdown, drag out fight. It might happen to them, but it happened to have. That's the way it went.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

And you have zero control over it. Very minimal.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

You can recognize cues ahead of time. Like we talked about. The first harmful event is usually not right. When everything goes to fist cuffs in the hallway, it's the decision how do we get there.

[Brandon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

What were we doing? Before. And what was the interactions of the Oscar officers and looking at that, backing it up. And you got the one guy, if he's driving it on a bad. A bad road, if he's trying to switch the tracks over there, like a dumb decision, and everybody else is like, well, he's a senior guy. Or.

[Derek]

Yes.

[Chris Palmer]

Instead of just going, hold on, like, what are we dealing with? It's a dick in a box. It's a dude with a knife in a hotel room by himself. Yeah, let's get in there. Look for what?

[Derek]

Yeah, who cares?

[Chris Palmer]

He's got his wife in there. Well, we're going in.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Unless the rules now say you will not do that. You will have to negotiate. Okay. That's the rules, right? Yeah, like, but it's. I wish, I wish we would push that more. Like, you're getting paid because you're going to get in a fight and someone's going to try to kill you or kill someone else in your presence, which is worse.

[Derek]

Yeah, right.

[Chris Palmer]

Right.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Derek]

And there's, I mean, going back to, well, you put that person in jeopardy. So we're going to. I mean, we make traffic stops every day. Like, so we're not supposed to do that anymore. I mean, like, you're right. I think us as police, when I say us as police administration, whoever that is, we do a bad job too, of being PR people for us, of going, hey, here's the truth. I mean, even, even so much, hey, you got moved from this unit. Wow. Well, you're just not a good fit. I mean, there's not conversations. I think SWAT and overall has a. Has a good voice in that because there's always debriefs. There's always. You bring new guys on. Hey, man, after practice, what do you think? You did good. Here. Here's what, here's what we saw. Here's what you needed to fix. Here's how you fix it. There's a continual process. I think that's why overall, you look at supervision guys who have come up to the SWAT chain and promoted, they usually do pretty well because there's been a process in there to continue to educate these people. Here's how you debrief. Here's why we're doing this. I mean, how many times do we watch? You're like, golly, oh, this debrief's gonna be tough because, man, I've shit the bed on this one. Yeah, everybody knows I shit the bed. Hey, let's learn from this. Why did I shit the bed? Well, yeah, I did this. If I would have done this. This would have not happened. Then you see other guys, and especially when senior guys don't step up and do that, because once the senior guy does it, it's okay. And it never gets addressed. And it's okay because those young guys look at it go, oh, well, he did it. So I guess that is the way to do it, you know, and that's a bad, that's a bad culture to build. No matter if it's in swat. Especially in swat. But I mean, in patrol, I mean, we see it all the time.

[Chris Palmer]

Yeah. The, the screw ups, like, are. Those are going to happen.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Those I guarantee you. Right. If you're a new cop out there and you haven't screwed up yet, I don't know, you're not working hard enough.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

And if you've been around for any amount of time, you can sit back and look and go, yep, wrong, wrong, wrong. Like, and you knew it too. Especially the ones when you knew at the time you were doing it.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

You're like, I'm. I was stupid. Why did I do that?

[Derek]

Yep.

[Chris Palmer]

But hey, those are gonna happen.

[Brandon]

Cool.

[Chris Palmer]

Move on. Chalk it away. Put it in the memory bank, try to pass it on. Not just because I told you so, but tell the story. Like, hey, dude, you need to be careful when you're talking to that guy. Well, I'm the police. He's a grown ass man in his own house. I know you ain't got a wife and no kids yet, but eventually no one's going to talk to you in your house that way. And yes, if it's time, let him demonstrate why you had to put him on the ground and put him in cuffs. But then we can rewind. Are you even capable of doing that?

[Derek]

No. No, Exactly. Right, Exactly.

[Chris Palmer]

Or is it going to be a screaming match and Tate, the magic lightning gun is going to come out and then do we shoot that dude? Like, right. What are your, what are you capable of?

[Derek]

Yeah, we. You watch videos and you're like, golly, why did you let this guy continue to just get ramped up and ramped up? And now everybody's ramped up and I see why there's something. So I look at what the bad guy did. I'm like, I get why he did that. Because I'm watching it going, I would take advantage of that. I mean, we're all human. And especially if you know what violence does. You're like, oh, yeah, if you're violent to those officers and you. And you see it stuff. So going Back to some, some training things as far as, well, there's a lot of training out there. Let's, let's talk about. Okay, instructors. So what is, how do we have. Because I think how we fell too is, is the instructor. You know, you give a guy, oh, I've been here two years and man, he, he's, he's fairly decent. So let's make him an instructor without. There's a process to, to becoming a quote in instructor. So we kind of talked about that last night. So if you don't mind, what, what is your in. In. In. In your perspective, what do you, what do, what do you see that going on in law enforcement as far as us building good instructors?

[Chris Palmer]

Oh, I don't, I don't know that I think that's hard. I mean I've been, I've been travel all the country. Probably not as much as you guys have, but I've seen the interactions and I've seen like exceptional individuals at every single department I've ever been to. And I've also seen people, I'm like, but that guy works here.

[Derek]

Yeah, right.

[Chris Palmer]

What do we do? Cops need more training. Cops need this. Well, what do we do to foster that? Like, how do we develop people internally? Because you'll develop. People will tell you, hey, for your career development, I need you to go here so I can. Then you go here and then you got more experience with that and we can promote you and move you up this chain. But you need these experiences. What are we doing to go. This is a void we have and we found an individual who excels at it. And they're most likely not a good instructor just to start out with. Right? Most likely. But they're very good at this, whatever it may be teaching, you know, document crimes, investigations, whatever it is. They're very good at it. How do we get. Go about getting that person built up as an instructor so they can pass these things off to our, our entire department for our community, like everybody, whatever. The thing is the instructor part, not just firearms and tactics, the actual people teaching your department, how do you develop them? I don't think we do a good job of that. I would say, at least where I'm from, you have a Arizona post general instructor certification and you also have a firearms instructor certification. You need the general instructor certificate.

[Brandon]

Same first in Texas.

[Chris Palmer]

Yes, that it's. If it's a damn 16 year old kid with a driver's license, you have a certificate. But you don't. You, you wrote one class and you did a hip Pocket class. Now you're an instructor. No, like, just like firearms structure. You're. You're an RSO at best, right? At best, yeah. So once they get that, what are we doing to develop it? They have a detective certification and that's now your detective eligible. And then you go to a detective bureau and you have to be there for a year and you have to carry cases and you have to actually go to court and you have to do all these things. And then your detective certified at the department. I think that's the only one that's like that. Everything else is just, oh yeah, you're already certified because you have the piece of paper.

[Derek]

You got it, right? Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

So like instructor development parts. Like we were talking before, like, I'm happy you go to AZ post, you get a firearm instructor certificate.

[Brandon]

Cool.

[Chris Palmer]

You're at least, I think in our department you should be a range safety officer.

[Brandon]

Agreed. We had this discussion the other day.

[Chris Palmer]

Where I was like, you're an rso.

[Brandon]

Yes.

[Chris Palmer]

You're certified to be on the range and assist with things you are not certified to teach. As you come and adjunct and be, you're given responsibilities. You learn. Here is the lesson plan we talked about last night. Here's the lesson plan. I need you to go over it. You're going to help me teach this next, next week or whatever. And then you don't even let them teach. They're just there to watch again. Yeah. And then the next time it's like you're going to teach this block and you let them have the block. Then you let them have half the day or half the, you know, two hours of it. Then it's, you're taking this thing full board. I will be there to help you get through it. But you let them get through an entire class and then it's, I need you to write me a lesson plan. Here's the topic. I'm giving you a topic. But I need you to write me a four hour block of instruction on this and all the ways that you can get in to do it and actually write a lesson plan. But that goes. Well, who's going to want to put that work in like, oh, I got, they got to make me do all this shit. Yeah. Like not making you do anything. I'm asking you to dry fire too, at a basic level. But to actually be good at it and demonstrate that you can do it, it has to be proven over time.

[Derek]

Well, that the job that you want is teaching people to take someone's life. You fucking better be invested in doing that, it's a crap like, you better enjoy it so much that you're willing to do stuff that most people aren't. Like, that's what drives me crazy. It's not a retirement gig. No, we're gonna go the range. Oh, well, you know, he's the last. There's a lot of blood, sweat and tears that you better put in there. If you're not. You don't need to do that job like that. That drives me crazy. You want me to do what?

[Chris Palmer]

Yeah, like, even if they're teaching crisis communication, to not have to take someone's life, like, dude, here's some, here's some words that get thrown at you. This is what they mean. Yeah, right. Emotional labeling, minimal encouragers, all these things we throw out there. Like, what does it actually mean and how do you use them? And then it's not just bullshit scenarios and stuff. If we taught, like, and I, you got, you know me, I go off on weird tangents. But, like, let's use crisis communication, right? Actually talking to people and going to a school. So I got to go to the FBI negotiator school. I've actually negotiated and talked to people on the phone for hours. Suicidal people, crazy people, freaking. All these things. We teach basic, like, communication to patrol guys, right? So just on a community crisis communication front, just that overall topic and the, and the actual techniques that are used. Are we watching those happen in BWC or supervisors aware of them? Can they do them themselves? And then are they telling, hey, I saw, you know, you talked to this guy who was, we call him a 918, like, crazy transient guy behind the Circle K. I saw the way he interacted and there's a really good job just kind of letting him, get him his story out and then he moved on.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

You know, tell me about the way you did that. Well, you know, this is what we were taught in training. And I use this and that and it. People will say, like, I don't need this stupid. Minimal encourage encouragers, emotional labeling, you know, like, yeah, but those are techniques, right? And when they're used effectively, they actually get really good results. And when they don't, it's allowing them again to show clearly to everybody why we had to use force.

[Brandon]

It goes back to like that chaotic state that you mentioned earlier. Like, that's. That should be temporary.

[Chris Palmer]

Right.

[Brandon]

Nobody works in a chaotic environment all the time. So by using those tactics, right. I'm trying to assess, like, what's causing this chaos. Oh, I realize this guy isn't on drugs or whatever, that this guy is in mental distress. So I'm going to maybe give a little more time or whatever the case may be. So I, I, you know, I think that's where. When you get to, like you said, when you get. The others are like, oh, no, no, my gay guys. You don't understand, man. Like, maybe you guys aren't out there on the streets with these guys right now, but they're dealing with this a lot more than we used to have to deal with. So we, we're going to give them those. We're going to give it more training on it. And that incorporates, you know, at times the inserts, the whole department. But.

[Chris Palmer]

And we need to, like, do a better job of explaining why it has value. It's not a nerd thing. Right? Like crisis negotiations. An actual negotiator is not, not for the nerds. It's a, it's a skill.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

It is a skill and a talent. And the better you can develop it, the better you can sell it. And you explain to guys, I tell them all the time in, like, our, our classes. I'm like, I'm trying to teach you these lefty liberal words they want to use. I'm going to teach you to use them as a weapon. Yeah, right. I'm going to teach you how to, to do a thing and say, I did this thing that you want me to do. And they're like, that's not what we mean. But it is. You don't get to rewrite the English language dictionary and tell me what de escalation means. I love having that. I love asking. I went to perf and I asked. We asked that question. And the only other guys that were, like, into making sense of it were two dudes from Canada in front of me. And they're like, can you tell me what de escalation means? And they're like, well, you've got to. You got to. Each department's gonna have to go through. Nah.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

It means taking something that's in crisis and getting it back to a baseline normal, whether that's with a 308 or just some words or walking away. Right. Those are all ways you can de escalate something. Right? But explaining to guys, like, these things that we're trying to get you to do to gauge capacity to show. And again, the most important thing is allow that person to demonstrate why we had to use force. You don't need to just jump right to it. There are times when you need to. But when you have, like, I Tell guys work. Everything's a lethal problem. Every single thing you run into is a lethal problem unless the individual gives you time to use Christ communication or less lethal. And less lethal is putting handcuffs on people. If you give me time to talk to you and turn around, put your hands behind your back. Because what's the majority of police contact, it's consensual. Even if they're not happy about it, they're not really fighting. Yeah, right. So if you go into every situation thinking this is going to be a lethal problem, if they give me a moment of time, I will try to talk to them. If that's starting to work, I'll move on to less lethal and then it's over.

[Brandon]

And that's what we teach is that time plus or minus, different distance. Right? Because sometimes you don't have control over that equals opportunity. Right? And so like you said, the more distance or time that you have gives you more opportunity to employ those strategies. Get your less lethal options up there. You're doing all this. But like you said, if now you're at the, now you're at the door of the hotel room and he's standing there with a knife and his wife is sitting over here in the corner balled up. So, oh no, now I'm going to have to what? I'm going to have to get a little bit closer. So now I'm limiting my ability to what, like force I can use because I'm. I risk, right, Going in there knowing the safety priorities that, that life is above mine in this scenario. So I'm going to have to get closer to the guy that I don't want to get closer to.

[Chris Palmer]

Right. And I don't want to have to kill him and I don't want to put him in a situation where he makes a dumb decision that I have to then use force, but I'm required to on behalf of this other person. I. The lefty leaning liberal words, right? Time, distance and cover. We rewrote our use force policy. Time, distance, cover. Guys, as soon as guys hear that, they're like, run away. You want me to run away? You want me to hide? No, Time, distance and cover are not things to use at the extreme of one end. They're things you're in control of. You need to control time, you need to control the distance and you need to control cover. And we ask that the. These liberals that were out there with us. And I said, how do you do? How do you de. Escalate an active shooter? You go really fast, you close the distance. You don't let them use cover. And if you need to, you kill them right then and there. Right. Even, like, oh, you can't. You're not going to kill them. We're going to stop them. They're probably going to die.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Like, let's just be honest with what we're doing. I'm using lethal force. So stop trying to minimize the words and make them feel soft and cuddly.

[Brandon]

I'm stopping his killing. How about that?

[Derek]

Yes.

[Chris Palmer]

Yeah.

[Derek]

And once again, let me put your kid in that mall. How do you want me to respond?

[Chris Palmer]

Right? Like, adding sanctity life to our use of force policy and talking about it. People are like, oh, you know everybody, dude. They do. Every human life has value.

[Derek]

Yes.

[Chris Palmer]

And we tell guys that, like, I don't care how bad the dude is. I guarantee you someone thinks he's pretty cool.

[Derek]

Yeah. Someone out there does.

[Chris Palmer]

It's somebody's kid, somebody's son, somebody's, you know, friend. Like, even if it's just one other freaking whack job that thinks they're the greatest person in the world, somebody cares about them. Life has value. We're not here to. We're not. As police, our job is not to decide who lives and dies. Our job is to make people safe and allow other people to be responsible for their decisions.

[Brandon]

Yeah, absolutely. That's great, great stuff. No, no, no, I'm.

[Derek]

Your. Your ears. Yeah, These headphones hurt after a while. Golly, my ears are killing me. Yeah.

[Brandon]

You did podcast earlier.

[Derek]

No, I think. I think too, like, what you said. A lot of instructors don't explain the why. And they. And to me, I'm always like, why don't you explain the why? Or you get challenged if someone asks you the why. And going back to just, you know, the, oh, this is some liberal de escalation, whatever class. But there's been times I've gone to things like that and had a bad mindset, but the instructor was like, wait a minute, let's use this this way. Or, wow, you presented that in a way I've never seen before. Now I get it. I understand it. Because when you say that to cops, you're like, wait a minute, we're going to use this. What? They told us we had to do kind of like body cam stuff. You know what? Now there's. There's. Now people don't like to see body cams because it shows their dumb ass in a bad light.

[Chris Palmer]

Shows how good of a job.

[Derek]

Yes. And so it's like, okay, we'll we'll turn the tables on you. You. I can still do my job and hurt you if I need to hurt you because you made that choice on body camera. And it's going to be fine. Like to me, it drives me crazy when I hear officers, well, we can't do this, we can't do that. Well, what did you do that got you in trouble? Well, I heard this. What was the story? Well, because I'm telling you what, I've done that six times in this department. Never been called on it once they asked me why I did it. Because everything. Guess what? Everything you do in police work, you better tell the why to everything. I don't care. Hey, I went to this call and this is what I did. Blah, blah, blah. You're just telling their story. But there's times where you got to tell your story and yeah, you're okay with it.

[Brandon]

And you're, when you're doing that, like you said in this scenario based training that you're talking about explaining these safety priorities of the officers, that's why you're going to push in that room, right? You're making them better critical thinkers as well and be able to articulate their levels of force that they're using or employing. I think like you said, you're, you're establishing a footprint for, to make a, I don't know, better officer. Right. A more well informed officer.

[Derek]

Well, I like what you said last night when we were talking about and you asked guys, why did you. I was in fear of my life.

[Chris Palmer]

I hate that.

[Derek]

Or he just played a weapon.

[Chris Palmer]

Oh, he put it in a box and said here.

[Brandon]

Or my, my, my, the one that I, that, that it's my one that my head explodes is like, well, because he shot.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Oh my God. I'm like, we have that discussion.

[Chris Palmer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brandon]

We're like, no. Well, the, and your, your attorney that's representing you, he's not going to let you use that answer either. So you're going to have to articulate to him so he can explain to.

[Chris Palmer]

You know, sometimes you don't get to shoot back. Yeah, that discussion last night, you know, you're, you're on the approach to the house, you got a DV call and as you're walking up there, you got the Scarface blanket hanging in the window. Cover it up and rounds start coming out the window at you, do you get to shoot back? You're just, People are like, well, yeah. Oh no, you don't, you're just, what do you. I don't get. You just got to run, not run and hide. You go get some time, distance, cover, cover, and use it to your advantage and be like, I don't know what's going on.

[Derek]

Yeah, right.

[Chris Palmer]

But I'm not going to shoot back.

[Derek]

Well, it's just like that, that famous acorn shooting deal. And, you know, the sergeant comes out after the blast and is, where's he at? Or whatever she said. I'm like, what the. What do you mean? Where's the bad guy at? What were you shooting at? What did you see? Just it. It's that one. It just blows your mind. That, that one's scary. That was real scary. So what are you. So what are good questions to ask when you're. When you're training guys? So what do you suggest for. Guys are listening to go, well, yeah, I kind of ask that. And they say this. So what would be some things that. How would you word it differently?

[Chris Palmer]

How would I word like, why are you doing something differently?

[Derek]

Their response of like, had they displayed a weapon, so what would you suggest? These. They know that they. That they shot. It's just.

[Brandon]

They're not explaining for my life, sir.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

So we tell them. My buddy Jeff and I was sitting there and we do, like, decision making with them one on one, and we, they the recruits. So they get treated a certain way and they start talking a certain way. Like little robots, Right? Yeah. As I approach the scene, the suspect displayed a weapon, and I was in fear for my life. He, you know, pointed the weapon in my direction and we're like, timeout. Like in your direction. Well, he pointed it at me. Say that.

[Derek]

Right?

[Brandon]

Exactly.

[Chris Palmer]

He didn't present a weapon to you. He pointed a gun at you.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

You can say he was armed. The suspect was animated. He was extremely angry. He was waving his hands in the air, but he was talking with a gun. His hand. We've all seen that.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

And I've talked to guys like, do you realize you're pointing a gun at everybody? Oh, right. On a barricade, they don't even realize. They're just mad and their hands move and they got a gun in it. We're not shooting them because we realize, you know, this is what this dude's doing. But we're like, just say what happened. Stop talking like you're a police report. You sound like an idiot. And none of it makes sense. And it all sounds like air quotes, articulation. It sounds like you're trying to make up a story. Just tell me what happened in plain English. Yeah, Right. The jurors, the other public, they're going to want to hear someone who sounds like a damn human and is explaining to them what happened. Yeah, I came around the corner. I saw a subject armed with a rifle. I, you know, this is the reason I was here for the call. I had minimal time and space between me and I. So I immediately gave a police command. A police, don't move. He turned the rifle and pointed it at me, and I shot him.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Why? Because you're not allowed to do that. Yeah, right. And like, simple things. Simple things that we tell them about, like announcing and giving your presence and explaining to him, hey, this police, you're under arrest. Put your hands in the air. I'm going to hurt you. Do you understand? That's a thing we've pushed through our guys. And guys will say, well, what if. What if they're. What if I don't have anything to arrest them for yet? Why are you fucking talking to them?

[Brandon]

Right?

[Chris Palmer]

Like, leave them alone. But if you have a reason to talk to him, like the general understood, like people say all the time, like, you're being detained. Fuck, I am. Yeah, right. What does that mean to people? Oh, yeah, the police were detaining him. No, he was under arrest. Right. And I asked guys that in class, you're unarrested somebody.

[Derek]

Yep.

[Chris Palmer]

Right. The actual process of an arrest with booking and going into jail and committing, you know, pushing paperwork through is an actual arrest. But we asked, you know, some attorneys and we talked to other people. If we're walking down the street and you're the cop, Brian and I are walking together, and you go, hey, guys, can I talk to you for a minute? We both look at you and tell you fuck off. And you don't have anything. There's no reasonable submit. And you just wanted. You were curious. Your job is to fuck off at that point. But if you have reasonable suspicion, right, you had something going on. Two guys look like this. You're like, hey, guys, actually stop. Come here for a minute. You've now committed a seizure. You violated my Fourth Amendment rights. You need to have a reason. And you do you have reasonable suspicion? If at that time, Brandon's like, look, man, I don't want no trouble. And I go, man, you. And you come up and you grab my wrist and I yank it away from me and take off running. What did I just do? At least in Arizona, it's resisting arrest, right? So how the did we get there? How can I resist arrest if I'm being detained and they're like, well, it's because it's an arrest. Like, it's a seizure. So just use a word that people understand.

[Brandon]

Be evading here.

[Chris Palmer]

Right?

[Brandon]

Yes.

[Chris Palmer]

Yeah, but so ours, like, if I fight you, though.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

For just a reasonable sister, I'm like, get the off me. And I start fighting. You wasn't. It's an aggravated assault and it's a resisting arrest. So we try to tell them. We're like, just use the plain words. Use what people understand. Give them the consequences, allow them to respond to them and listen. Yeah, a lot of guys don't want to listen. They want to give commands. And the other guy's like, oh, you know, whatever. And it's like, I don't know. We go on and about this, our interactions with people and why we. And again, I think that's from the original training. You got to be in charge. You got to be doing this and that. You there are. You are in charge. Don't freak out about it. Tell them what you want to do and listen.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

I've already told you once. Put your hands in the air. Police don't move. Yeah, right. They don't move. Put your hands up in the air. Turn around. You're under arrest. If you do anything, if you do anything other than what I tell you to do, I'm gonna hurt you. Do you understand that? And we. We've really been pushing that capacity to understand. So it. You'd be amazed at what. How clearly people are. Can articulate why they needed to get their ass kicked in their own words and actions. Right. Do you understand what I'm telling you? Yeah. You. You understand?

[Derek]

Yes.

[Chris Palmer]

Right.

[Derek]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

If you don't do this, I'm going to tase you. And that came from that court case. They said, if you don't sit down, I'm going to tase you. And the guy goes, fuck you. Tase me. And they tased him. And he's like, that's excessive force. And the court was like, that's consent. Told you what was going to happen. Yes.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

And you did it.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Right.

[Brandon]

Sorry, Brian, let me go. Because I'm going to add to what you just said is that I think when you're actually teaching and you're, you know, you're in the academy class and it's reasonable suspicion is on the board, and okay, this is what reasonable suspicion is, blah, blah, blah, then you give those scenarios like, hey, no, this is what we're talking about. This. This is how it applies to you. So now, you know, you can. You Know, go hands on with that person, right? We had a recruit like that and the, the actor, the guy was like, he's asking her, are you detaining me? And she's like, looks at the, you know, because it's raised. She looks at us and we're standing there and he goes, she's like, no. He goes, I'm leaving. And she goes, okay. And then this goes back, no, no. That's why we gave you the call and said that it looked like he was doing hand, you know, delivering drugs in a parking lot, hand to hands. And that's your reasonable suspicion. So you can grab that guy is not free to go right now. I said, she's like, oh, that light bulb hit off, right? Because in the academy, it was just reasonable suspicion. They're like, this is what they're.

[Chris Palmer]

So this goes back to the original training thing. Do you mean to tell me that. So when you see, like First Amendment auditors and you see people that do certain things, they want to interact, the police, to see if they can get a rise out of them, they'll use certain techniques, right? Am I being detained? And you see cops, like, get taken aback, like, oh, fuck, I don't know.

[Brandon]

That's what happened, right?

[Chris Palmer]

Like, oh, if you're not already at. I know. Leave people alone. Yeah, right. I mean, like, really think about the Constitution, like how you want to be treated.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

And I've told, I tell recruits that I said nothing good has ever come from talking to the police.

[Brandon]

Nothing.

[Chris Palmer]

Like, if I'm on vacation, walking down the beach in San Diego is what.

[Brandon]

Comes out of that.

[Chris Palmer]

Nothing good has ever come from talking to the police. And I, and I say, like, I'm on vacation in San Diego. I'm walking down the beach and a cop goes, hey, can I talk to you for a minute? The answer is no.

[Derek]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Like, I'm sorry, I'm not. I'm on vacation. I don't want to. I don't know you. I don't want to be your friend. Like, there's nothing good's going to come with that. And if he goes, hey, come here. I now have a decision to make.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Do I go? You, I ain't coming over there. Or do I go, okay, yeah, and go over there and go, what's going on? What are you doing here on your business? Like, because, yeah, you got to have a reason to do it. So that's my point is, like, we teach them all the laws, but we don't teach them an application or understanding. It is and then once we're out there, are we holding them to that standard and showing them where they did a good job, where you see it all the time, like why didn't they just put hands on that guy right then? Good question. But for that individual, what was their confidence level and a. What they're allowed to do and what they're capable of.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And let's go ask them what they're thinking because we had that come down for command staff on the use of force committees and like, well, why is that what you're training? I'm like, no, no, we're not training that. But we need to talk to them to ask them why before we come to get give you our answer. Right. Because. Yeah, you're right. Graham Smith would have done this because of his level of training, experience and knowledge of the law. But you're talking about a one and a half year officer here. So let's talk to them and figure out why they did.

[Chris Palmer]

They may not recognize any of the cues that you have or even be aware of it. Well, this. Because you have the. That you're looking at a BWC two days later. Yeah. It was this call and this is all what happened, you know, an hour later when he got caught doing this. Oh, that's all great. But what did they know in the moment? Right, right. Which is how a course how like how we should even treat people, period.

[Derek]

Yes.

[Chris Palmer]

What did they know in the moment? They're like, I didn't even know what's going on. I got to call this. And they said, well, orange shirt and this is more like a yellow color. And I wasn't sure. And the guy was like you. And I was like, I don't want to get in trouble because if it isn't him and you go and detain him and he's like pushing off and you beat his ass and it's not the dude.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

We tell him like, that's still okay.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Did you have, did you explain who you were and what they were doing and why they were under arrest or why they were being detained and then they refused to do it? You cannot resist an unlawful arrest.

[Derek]

Right, Right.

[Chris Palmer]

Either. I don't know if it's different Texas, but I know it is in Arizona. You cannot resist an unlawful arrest. Even if I just make some up, it'll come out. It'll come out in the wash.

[Derek]

It does it go back to what you said, Graham? I think that's a huge thing, man. Especially when you're doing like reality based training and, and Things like that. Like, of asking, hey, why'd you do that? I asked guys, why'd you do that? Even though I know what they did. That's the. That's 100% the way you should have done it. But if you don't know why and you don't even know that you did it 100%, and you go, I don't know. I'm like, well, hey, you just got lucky then. Yeah, you got to tell me the why. Because there's times where I'm like, why'd you do that? And I'm thinking they did wrong. And then they tell me like, oh, yeah, I didn't. I didn't see that. Oh. Or I set up a bad run. Yeah, that's my fault, man. Sorry about that. But that is huge. But there's guys that don't want to ask why, because they're like, I got you on this. Or, hey, man. Well, this is the policy. Well, is this really the policy, or is this just something that. Where you don't even know what the policy is? Because guess what? You had five people in here looking at going, hey, it says this. This. What do you think? What do you think? And you've had 45 minutes to discuss this. And that guy had, you know, 4.5 seconds to decide this whole thing that. That happened and stuff. And it goes back to. But it goes back to trainers. Like, the older I get and the more I'm around and continue to be immersed with guys that I know that are craftsmen of being a instructor. I see a lot of things that I've done wrong in the past. I see a lot of guys I look at. I'm like, man, yeah, you shouldn't be teaching. You don't need to be teaching right now. You need to go back and get under somebody who's going to, like, walk you through this, help you build your resume to be able to teach. Because, I mean, I've seen guys go through classes, and I'm like, you're gonna go back. You're gonna take this class, Sir, I'm a certificate. Here's this. And I am teaching whatever it is. And I'm like. It's scary to me. I'm like, wow, that guy.

[Chris Palmer]

Because it all comes like I asked. So we do. This will be two seconds. It's a scenario we do in less lethal school. And I've been massively impressed with some of the answers I get when I ask the question at the end. And guys are like, boom. And I'm like, exactly. And I've been like other ones where I'm like, how do you not know? I know you were taught this. So where did the ball get dropped? Did the ball get dropped in standards, or was it training? Because I know they were taught it. Was it an effective instructor? Was it not delivered right for that person? But how did we ensure sure that they actually know it? Instead of going, everybody, check the box. Everybody's on the roster, good to go. Now, I can prove you've been on the roster. But do I. Did I really, for the betterment of our community and our department, have you demonstrate the ability to do it?

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Right. So we. It's a less lethal scenario. It's for the school, but it can go any which way you want. In our shoot house, they're at a door. We're just working the front door. Yeah, it's always the same call. Ring alarm, ring camera activated. Guy dressed in black kicks this door in, goes inside the structure. They don't have cameras inside, but they have audio. And they can hear somebody rustling around. You got these two patrol officers here at the front door. They're on cross cover. You've got the back and sides covered. It's contained. They asked for 40 to come over and just in case it's needed. So here you are. You show up. They go through. It's always the same scenario, but the actor plays a different role each time. They act differently.

[Derek]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

Compliant, not compliant, all that. Right. But it's always the exact same scenario. They always come from the same place. So looking in the door, guy comes out and he's. He walks out and he's like. He's like, what the fuck are you guys doing here? And they're like, we're the. Hey, you know, we're the police. And sometimes they're screaming, yelling, put your hands up. Put your hands up. And he's like, what the fuck? He goes, this is my aunt's house. Like, I fucking live here. Prior to that, I give him. I said, look. Ring alarm. They call the homeowner. Homeowners on vacation in California. They said, no one is supposed to be in our house. We want to prosecute. So you're here. No canines available. You guys are calling out to this house and deal with whatever happens.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

So he comes out in the hall. He's like, this is my aunt's house. This is the address. Like, I'm just. You're freaking me the fuck out. And then they, like, you know, 40 in them, and he's hits the ground. And then they call him out, they take him into custody. And I said, okay, so what happened? What do you say? Sometimes they're like, I don't know.

[Derek]

Yeah, right.

[Chris Palmer]

Didn't hear that. And then other times they're like, well, he said, it's his aunt house. And I go, okay, well, now that we have him out, we call the homeowner. And they're like, oh, shit, I forgot he's supposed to be there. And like. And they're like. And I go, does it matter? And they're like, well, yeah, like, that's bad. I'm like, no. In the moment when you use force, did you have probable cause to arrest that individual for burglary? And this is just Arizona law, Right. Based on what you have, homeowner says, no one's supposed to be there. We want to prosecute. Anyone that's in there is not allowed to be there. That's a burglary. Did you have PC to arrest this guy and book him into jail in that moment?

[Derek]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

Yes. Then what? The outcome is irrelevant.

[Derek]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

It was based on his decisions. He may be in his own mind, and he probably is completely justified and going, I belong here.

[Derek]

Yes.

[Chris Palmer]

I don't. Like, he's freaking out. He doesn't understand it one way, but we're operating on what we know. And that is. He's comes over and he's like, crap. And the door is a little jammed, so he gives it a nudge with his foot and he pushes it in. And now he's just inside bebopping around, doing whatever he wants to do.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

And the police show up, and he's like, what the fuck are the cops doing here? And he's not. He's never belligerent. He's not like, fuck you. He's just like, what the fuck is going on? Why are you freaking me out? No, I ain't coming out there. This is. You know, this is wrong. Let me call my. Just let me get over here. So he starts to walk away, and usually when they hit him. Right?

[Brandon]

Yeah, I like that scenario.

[Chris Palmer]

But I asked him, I was like, does it matter? And they're like, no. I said, what are we going to do now?

[Brandon]

Yes.

[Chris Palmer]

We'll dust them off. Right. And explain to him this is why this happened.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Right. This is what's going on. Here's what's going on. I'm sorry, you got an ouchie on you. We're gonna call the fire department for you. But we were here. We did, and they told, you are under arrest. Do these or you're going to get hurt if you don't do any of that. Right? If he just shows up and he's out there, hey, what's going on? Get the out here. Let me see your hands. And you whack him. Now he's like, I didn't even know what was going on. Yeah, we didn't allow him to demonstrate why we had to get divorced because we weren't compressed for time. We weren't compressed for space. He was giving us time to try to talk to him. And guys are like, how long am I supposed to take? Long enough.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Three seconds, four hours, I don't know. But long enough.

[Derek]

And that's what I, that's what is. I think for me, what's so enjoyable about this job is there's nothing that is, it's, it's predictably unpredictable. You just throw one scenario in, you take one scenario out, one variable here, one variable there, and it totally changes. I mean, and that's what I love about this because it truly is. You gotta think because you do that same scenario and you give them one less information or you give them one more piece of information and it could totally change the whole outcome of that thing. And that's what's great. Because on the flip side of that, yeah, that's my aunt, but she doesn't know I'm here because I broke into her house because I'm the fucking doper, you know, family member. And she wants to press charges because I've done this before. Same, same thing. So you're both justified in both K. But guys don't understand that. And I think that you do a great job of, of just really breaking down. And I think that's part of, of the craft of being a good instructor is going, hey, man, we're going to take you from, from A to Z and we're going to cover all these letters in between. Because a lot of guys go, I'll give you a B, Q, F and T. And that's all you get. Figure out the rest.

[Chris Palmer]

Dudes do. Just great answers. It doesn't matter. And they're like, it doesn't matter at all. Like they're, you know, they're not even being about it. Like, no, it doesn't matter at all. I told them, he says, it's his aunt's house. I said, that's fine, we can figure that out here. We're not, we're not even here to have a discussion at this point in time. You're under arrest. Yeah, I'll un arrest you. If we need to. But you need to come out here, and we'll figure the ant thing out. No, no, no. Okay. Hey, dude, you're not. You are not free to leave. If you try to go back down that hallway again, we're gonna hurt you. Do you understand that? Yeah, but I just need to get my phone. No, listen to me. If you go down there, we're gonna hurt you. Do you understand that? Yeah, but I'm just gonna go get my phone. Whack.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

What did you think was gonna happen? Right? Well, that's not fair. I just had to get my phone. Which is how the actor will play it out, right? Yeah. That's all great, but the police are at your house. They're explaining what's going on. They're telling you you're under arrest. We are seizing you under the fourth amendment, and here's all the reasons we can do it. When I teach, it's your job to comply with that.

[Brandon]

You're, and, you know you as a good instructor, understanding that how important those call notes were.

[Chris Palmer]

Very.

[Brandon]

That leads you to that use of force or not again, because we'll tell them, you know, they'll say they didn't want to respond the way that you didn't want to. Well, why didn't you guys use force and hit him with a 40? Let him go back down the room, whatever. And he's like, well, he was saying it was ants. Household. What did the call note? So. And then a lot of times they'll go, oh, man, I don't remember. Because of that stress, right? And you're like, okay, well, this is. Oh, yeah, no, no. If I would have remembered that, I would have.

[Chris Palmer]

And then again, it's okay, then.

[Derek]

Yes.

[Brandon]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. You don't get mad at him. You're like, okay, well, that makes sense why you didn't do that. Because you couldn't remember.

[Chris Palmer]

I probably shouldn't have, right?

[Derek]

Yes.

[Brandon]

Okay, well, that makes sense to us. But remember now, what if you had that information that the call note said that they saw it on the ring camera, they're out of town, no one else votes, and they want to prosecute. They'll be like, oh, yeah, yeah, I would hit him with a 40. I would let him go down the hallway.

[Derek]

Okay, good.

[Chris Palmer]

And then we asked. So they hit him with a 40, goes down the hall. And I said, did you cause him to go down the hall? And now he ain't coming out. No. Where are we at. So you hit. And we try to tell him, like, make sense of this. Everything we do has a win. Everything we do has a hook that can be used as a positive. So you hit this guy. He's disobeying it. He ends up being the guys the. And it is his aunt's house. But you hit him with a 40, he runs down the hallway. Where are we at? Right back where we started.

[Derek]

Yeah, who cares?

[Chris Palmer]

So we're just back where we started. Now he's 40. So the hook is, hey, dude, this is why it happened that. You may be hurt. We're going to get you help. We can get him out. The guys who didn't hit him.

[Derek]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

Didn't have time or weren't able to get up and get a firing solution quick enough to get around on him. What did we lose? And they're like, well, we didn't hit him. Like, but what do we. Where are we at? Right back where we started.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

He's down there. What's the hook? See, you came out. Nothing happened to you. Come out. Like, it's. Everything has a positive hook to be used for us. We just have to explain to them how to use it.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

But in the end, I go, what is the goal of an audible alarm? And they're like, oh, to clear it and do this. I said, no, it's to find out if it's occupied.

[Derek]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

That's it. That's the end goal. After that, it wins. There is not a single burglar in the United States left. That's still in the house that we just gave up on. Right, right, right. They were just like. Like, I guess he's not coming out. I guess we'll just leave. Sorry, folks.

[Derek]

Yeah, we're gone.

[Brandon]

It's kind of like. And when you start that debrief, you're like, okay, what was the call for service that you. You received? And remember the call notes? And they're giving you all that other one. This is. Okay, Good job, you know? You know, and then you're giving that a little quick reinforcement, and then you get to whatever. And then maybe you wanted them to do something different.

[Chris Palmer]

So you're like, yeah. And in the end, I don't care if they use force or don't.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Chris Palmer]

It's. We're here to find out if it's occupied. It is. He goes back in there. What do we have? Hurricane.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

I'm gonna steal your scenario, just so you know.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Use it.

[Derek]

Yeah, but it's.

[Chris Palmer]

In the end, it's what's the goal. We accomplished it.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Is there any reason to go in the house after this guy? No, that's the only bad answer.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

When you know it. Yeah, yeah.

[Derek]

And the thing too is like, I talk about guys like, hey man, things can go. Hey, we're doing whatever the mission statement can change with within the mission. Like, bam, now we're doing this. Oh, shit, we were doing a narcotic search warrant. It fucking turned into a hostage rescue. It can happen. Like there's things that can happen or you're, you're serving some type of, you know, child exploitation. There's, there's young minors in the house that are doing sex act that can turn into a hostage rescue. Because now, I mean, they don't care about these kids that are, they're using. So understand that's part of the mindset of, hey, things can switch. I mean, you got to be able to modulate your thinking of going, I just can't get in this mindset. This is the only thing I can do. If you do that, you're just not a good cop. Sorry, you're just not and stuff. So, man, we've been going an hour and 20 something minutes. Look at that, man. Take an hour.

[Brandon]

Well, this now you're like you said, we're just the stuff that we deal with every day. So it's so easy to talk about, you know, you're like, oh, yeah, and I'm learning stuff. And I'm like, oh, I'm gonna use that, right? Yeah, use the hook. I'm gonna use the hook.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Terminology.

[Chris Palmer]

Everything has a positive last year.

[Brandon]

Yeah. You know, the days of Brow beating people. Well, here's what you did. You should, you came in, did, they should have did this. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Yes, sir. You know, and you're like, yes, we're not, we're not building better officers that way, man.

[Chris Palmer]

I tell them, I said, look, I can give you a scenario. There's probably, we'll just make a number up. There's 4, 000 different ways that this scenario could be handled. There's a billion ways it could be handled, but there's several that are easily identifiable as a really dumb idea.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

So let's just take those, lock them up in a box, never talk about them again. The rest of them are all options.

[Brandon]

There you go.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

40 him, don't for him, go in the house, don't look. Oh, yep, that's the way. Should I go over here, over there. I don't care.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Chris Palmer]

Like, what difference does it make. What's. What's the advantage of this point over this point? Well, I like this one better. Sounds like a place to be.

[Derek]

Yeah. Like, I'll say, like, hey, there's an A plus way. There's the A minus way. Hey, that was an A. That was a B plus way to do it. It all worked. You passed. It worked. I mean. I mean, how many times have we looked at as team leaders? You looked at a. We've done a run, and you debrief it. And one team was like, now we did it this way. And then another team comes in. They all didn't violate any principles that we're using. I'm like, fuck. Or you're like, oh, yeah. I didn't even think about that. You did it. That was a great way to do it. I even thought about that. I mean, that just happens. Or even as instructors for even new guys that, you know, like, oh, shit, man, I set that scenario up. I'm like, oh, you crushed it. I think about that. That's a good thing. I mean, I'll tell them, hey, man, you outsmarted me. I didn't know about that one, so. But that goes back to humbling yourself as a. As an instructor, and that's. I don't see that a lot of times with instructors. Hey, man, this is my little kingdom. This lesson plan. We're not deviating. And this is my proprietary stuff, so you can't question me. That. That drives me crazy.

[Chris Palmer]

Don't violate principles. Do whatever you want. Yeah, other than that. Go for it.

[Derek]

Yeah, no, it is. So, man, you got anything else, Graham?

[Brandon]

No, that's good stuff.

[Derek]

Like I said, we brought him out from there.

[Chris Palmer]

Yeah.

[Derek]

We gotta get.

[Brandon]

And he's got to speak all night, so hopefully we didn't. I'm gonna make you talk too long.

[Derek]

And you're sexy suit man, tonight.

[Chris Palmer]

All right, man, I haven't figured out what shirt I'm gonna wear yet. It's either gonna be lavender or blue.

[Derek]

Oh, I like that, man. I like a man that can wear spring. Because, I mean, anybody knows me, like, dude, that dress.

[Brandon]

We're not gonna make you wear the disco helmet either.

[Derek]

So just so if you want to, you can. I mean, I. It's all up to you.

[Chris Palmer]

I'm scared.

[Derek]

I would love. I would love for you to wear that. That's.

[Brandon]

That's a. Hospitality.

[Derek]

That is actually one of my favorite gifts I've ever been given, believe it or not, and stuff, so. Well, Chris, man, I always enjoy, you know, chatting with you Derek, last year when we, when we brought him up, you and Gabe on a last minute, you know, just, hey, you want to come and do a podcast afterwards? Derek was like, dude, that was a good.

[Brandon]

I like, I told you excited about this.

[Derek]

I told you you're gonna like talking to him and stuff. Chris, I just enjoy just how you can sit down and just the way you approach things is very. Just. Just common sense and, and being able to relay what's in your mind to the. To the end user is a really good gift that you have and so continue to do that. And, man, I. I could see your friend and. And guys that I look up to, so I, man, I always give credit to those kind of guys. So thank you for doing what you do because you inspire me, man.

[Chris Palmer]

So appreciate letting me. Guys, let me. Let me ramble.

[Derek]

Yeah, no, that was good stuff, man, for sure.

[Brandon]

So.

[Derek]

All right, man. That's episode five of this season. Episode four, Grammy. Keep doing good, man. I'm glad we recruited you.

[Brandon]

Thanks.

[Derek]

So stay safe and train hard.

[Brandon]

Pay race.

[Chris Palmer]

Yes.

[Derek]

You get an extra shirt this year? Yes.