Loading summary
Transcript591 lines
- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:10]
B
For SWAT officers, military, and all first responders. We'll be talking training tactics and leadership with the best subject matter experts around.
- [00:19]
C
Here are your hosts.
- [00:21]
B
All right, folks. Well, welcome to the season five. This is actually season five of the TTPOA podcast. We've made it this far. We are back at the conference this year, 2020. 2025 at the Kalahari. So excited to be here. We have some. Well, Matt's not new anymore. He's a veteran, so. But this is your first conference to do. All this of it just runs itself, and we get paid so much money and things like that.
- [00:46]
D
I'm still waiting on the money.
- [00:48]
B
Keep waiting. You got a cool. You got a cool T shirt.
- [00:51]
D
The checks in the mail.
- [00:52]
B
Yeah. So that. That's your T shirt. And why is that saying high definition recording only supports single string preview? I don't know what that means, Chris. So that one's working, but that one's not, huh? I don't know what that means. So we might not have video.
- [01:12]
C
All right.
- [01:13]
B
Is it still recording? It's still blinking the back saying.
- [01:19]
A
Well, all right.
- [01:22]
D
It's his fault for not being here. He knows. He knows.
- [01:24]
B
He cannot leave us alone with this. Here we go. We're gonna have some audio for sure. So this is how we roll. Like Kim, check it.
- [01:32]
C
You want to check it?
- [01:33]
A
Yeah.
- [01:34]
C
You want to see how we check it?
- [01:35]
B
Yeah, I think we're good.
- [01:36]
C
We're good.
- [01:37]
B
It still. It says we're recording, so. Oh, well, that's just. That's us.
- [01:42]
A
And.
- [01:42]
B
And we just do it live. Yes, we're gonna do it live. We're gonna do it live, so. All right. So our first guest of the season is Kim Pastor. How you doing, Kim?
- [01:49]
C
I'm good. Thanks for having me.
- [01:51]
B
It seems like we've been talking for a while, and we finally made this happen, huh?
- [01:56]
C
Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Thank you.
- [01:58]
B
So it was really. It was. Met you last year, obviously, in a whirlwind of just chaos and stuff, and I thought it was really. It was a really interesting time in. In my career, or not my career, but just meeting you in the fact of. So in my SWAT school that. That I run in Region 7, we always have a memorial march on Thursday, and we carry litters. We have weights in there. And then we have sandbags, and those sandbags have fallen office. And George's name was on that sandbag. And this was in, I think, March. Yeah, March of 2024 when we did this. And so we videoed it, and Stuff, and it always means something, but it hasn't meant as much because now I'm meeting the wife of a fallen officer that we just did this memorial march for. And so it was pretty powerful for me after I met you at the shooting competition for. For George, that we raised money for him at this last conference. And then I met you, and I was like, wait a minute, I have a video. And I showed you that video, and it really meant something to me because I was able to take a name on a bag and relate it to someone who knew him, impacted him, and it really meant something to me. So this year when we did it, we. We made four hammers and his. His. One of the cornerstone. Ha. And so when I was telling the story to the new guys that were coming through this SWAT school, I was like, you have no idea what you're actually marching for until you meet a spouse of one of these fallen officers and stuff. And so it just really had a new twist on that for me. And then when we talked on the phone a few weeks ago, I was like, hey, I don't know if you remember this. You're like, man, I don't remember anything. Was a whirlwind. But that was just a neat honor to be able to meet you. And that was in a. Just. I mean, it was a whirlwind that you were going through and to see what's. What's transpired since then, it's been. It's been really, really neat to see, and it's not over with. And you're a. You're a firecracker. It's been an honor to chat with you on the phone and get to know you more and just who you're about, because you're real, which is. Which is really neat. So I don't want to take all the time. So tell me about you, Kim.
- [04:22]
C
Yeah. No, and just to add to what you just said, it is strange how the brain works, but I am starting to, like, reconnect all those memories, and people tell me stuff like that, and I do then begin to. I'm like, oh, right, I remember that. And it's interesting how meaningful those things are and how many people have just wanted to give me a patch or a plaque or they'll run in his honor. And so I've tried to make time and space for those people because I know that it's part of the healing and it makes them feel good. And so it's been an honor for me to allow people to. To present me with those things. Or do things in his honor. Because I think any spouse or even any team, any friend would just say, all we want is for them to be remembered. And it's so beautiful that they're honored that way. So thank you for that.
- [05:07]
A
Yeah.
- [05:09]
C
So, yeah, you want to know about me? Did not know I'd be sitting at a TTPOA conference podcast.
- [05:14]
B
Lucky girl.
- [05:15]
C
A year and a half ago, my life has completely turned topsy turvy. But I do feel like everything I've done in my life has sort of led me to this, and it's exactly what I'm supposed to be doing. So it's very strange sometimes feeling the gratitude for the people that I have to support me and then having to remember the only reason why we're here is because George is gone. So it's a. It's. It does get to be a little bit contradictory and confusing in your brain as you process those things. But, you know, George and I had run a karate school together, and we were kind of a dynamic duo, if you will, and could sort of conquer anything and always were sort of take on any challenge. And together we were like that yin and yang. We balanced each other out. And so doing this foundation and knowing him so well and him being so true to who he was, it's made it very easy to stay on task and focused with the mission and because he was who he was, and he made no apologies for that. So it's been very easy. It's easy to love him, and it's easy to know him and know what he would want. So it's made running the foundation feel like we're together doing it, that he's kind of working through me. So all of my. My skill. Skill set has sort of led me to this and being a people connector and trying to make things better and try focusing on positive. So as I move through what's been the worst year and a half of my life and the most tragic thing that has ever happened to me, where there's days when I feel like I'm literally hovering above myself, I realize that I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be, and our plan is our plan, and I have to believe what we are destined for is what we're destined for. And instead of the, you know, why me? Why did this happen to me? It's sort of like, what now? And. And how can we move forward and heal and how can we make sure he's never forgotten and honor his legacy and his memory and his sacrifice in. In the best possible Way.
- [07:10]
B
Well, I think you're doing a. Just an outstanding job of doing that and taking what his passion was and just continuing to, to press that. Because Matt and I talk about this a lot of just how important training is and qual and getting these reps in and just being, having that mindset of this is what we have to do. We have to be craftsmen of this trade. And you've done a very great job of continuing to push that. And I do want to let everybody know, we've talked a lot leading up to this, and I listened to the podcast you did on the debrief, and we wanted to be different than that. And I told you, this whole podcast has been just. Just people just sitting down and having a real conversation, just like you would at the range or a fire or anything like that. We also want to make it light hearted, but this is a, this is a deep subject, but we also want to be able to still laugh and, and, and, and do all that. And through all that, I've. I've heard you kind of break down on the phone, and then next thing you. Next thing you know, we're laughing about things like that. So, so for the audience, this is, this is what we want. This is what you want. This is so. This is desire. So when you hear laughing, all that, this is, this is just part of it, of the healing process and everything like that. And that's what I really appreciate about you is that you're like, I don't take no for an answer, and I don't take shit from people because I want to. I want to tell a story and I want to. I want people to get value out of what, what I've gone through. And I really admire you for that.
- [08:37]
C
Thank you. I mean, it's definitely not easy, you know, ripping off the band aid, as they'd say. And some people are like, you know, why do you keep doing this to yourself? And, and what people don't know is that I think about him every second. And even in your most joyous moments, there's sadness that's underneath it, and it's a void and a hole that you will never fill. But doing these things and filling your heart with these things and, you know, I was thinking as you were talking about the training, it. It took me a minute because the first thing I thought when they told me he was. He was shot and killed is that. But all the training and all the days he was away from me to train, how could this have happened? Especially on a SWAT call, you know, a Traffic stop, that's always nerve wracking. I mean, I was more nervous about him driving home at four in the morning in the dark, tired, never worried about a SWAT call. And it was one of the guys on the team that said, you know, it's all the training that gives us the confidence to run in there and do what he did. And without that training, you know, the guys that are in the stack or who, who's with you, you don't even have to turn back and look. And so I had to kind of flip my brain just as a civilian thinking, you've done all this training, I'm preaching training and let's look at what happened to George. But he couldn't have gone in there and done what he'd done with that confidence, right? No, that level of confidence, I think that's the difference between someone who maybe doesn't have the exposure to that kind of a situation or train under that kind of stress. And so that's why it has become so important to me. And we all know that our patrol officers are typically the first ones to respond and they're not getting the level of training SWAT is. And, and how do we take a look at that and make that better? And, and you know, it could have been that more people were killed that night and they weren't and they executed that, that call and from what I've known and seen, just almost flawlessly. And I'm, I'm grateful that no one else was, was killed. I'm glad that, that the officer who was shot is healing and I don't think George would have it any other way. And so it took me a minute to wrap my brain around that. And then I realized what he'd all want from us is to continue training, taking care of one another and staying fit, you know, and, and just being that cop that you'd want to back you up. And so just sticking with that.
- [10:56]
B
That's, that's awesome. And, and I think it's a, you're right when it comes to like, statistically speaking, like, you know, getting hurt on a SWAT call is way less than patrol or you know, some other, even a car accident, things like that. And you know, but the call that they were on, a hostage rescue, that was, that's the, that's the Super Bowl. That's the pinnacle of, of why we're here as a SWAT team. And there is a greater risk. I mean we even say that when we, when we teach, like, hey, you have to give up something that's going to be a little bit of your safety just because of what we're having to do. So I think that's, that's an important just aspect of it is that, you know, he was going on a, on a hostage rescue mission. And, and then that's. To me, there's just, there's just something about that when we talk about the SWAT role and how sacred that is and how important that is. So that's one of those things where we, we as the, the officers understand that and, you know, just like George did, it's like that's just what we, what we understand. And, and I think that's what's hard for. I always think it's hard to be a, an officer's wife because you understand that. But you. That's not what you want for your spouse. But then you're like, well, is it going to be my spouse or do I want someone else's spouse? I mean, there's just. It's such a complex.
- [12:29]
C
So weird.
- [12:30]
B
Yeah. And it is. And like, you know, you have that nice perspective, but then you have the spouse's perspective and it's a. They parallel, but they also join as well.
- [12:41]
C
Absolutely. And I, you know, it's interesting you say that, especially that I've had this year. I mean, he's been gone for a year and a half, but since I started the foundation and to really delve into this and learn more about it. It's interesting you say that because as a spouse, the first thing you have to wrap your brain around is that you come second. And if you think you come first here in La La Land, because you don't. And so I knew that about him. And I knew, I mean, he would take anybody's shift, he'd be on call as much he loved to go to trainings. I mean, he was jazzed. And I know he ran into that house thinking he was gonna save the hostages, kill the bad guy and come home. And I, So I don't ever even question, you know, was he scared? Was he this. I know that was like you said, the super bowl of calls. They were ready to go. They collectively decided, we've got to go in. We've got to save these people. And so that stuff is the easiest stuff to wrap my brain around. But I think where spouses maybe fall short and have the most trouble is trying to be first doesn't mean they don't love you. It doesn't mean they don't care about their marriage. But. But it's a. You have to be a special human being to do that. And so it is hard to understand, like, why are you running into a house where, you know, this guy's going to, you know. But I know that, again, he wouldn't have it any other way, probably for a lot of SWAT guys. As strange as this sounds, it's. If he had to pick a way to go. We talked about this. Yeah, I mean, oh, he's the happy one. I'm the sad one left here, which is why I'm going to carry on. But, you know, for him, and knowing that he didn't suffer too, but I don't know where I'm going, I. I always just talk in circles. So you can, you can always rein me back in.
- [14:32]
B
No, and I think that, I think that's. That that's just what our podcast is about. Yeah, we just, we just grab things and go. And when you say that it resonates with me is like. And it's a hard thing to set across from, from you and actually acknowledge that because. But, you know, that's the truth. And it is a hard thing because I think too, like, it also dawned on me too, as talking with you. When we teach, we talk about the importance of, hey, being ready. You know, like, this shit is serious and stuff. But it also puts it a different perspective because I don't, I think about it, but I don't think about it as much as, hey, I'm addressing the officer that we're teaching. But there's also that other part of that, the spouse on there. And like, you know, Matt of his group teaches hostage rescue for. In my region a lot. And I think it's an interesting concept is that we, we talk to the, to the user of this product of this hostage rescue class. But it's hard that. To think about the spouse of that because it doesn't happen very often. Like, statistically speaking, again, we don't get hurt very often because of the way we do things and the training, the tactics and things like that. But when we do, it's a big deal and it really affects a lot of this, this community. And, and I think it's. It made me really reevaluate when I'm, when I'm talking to guys in training. Like, I've always known it, but now I'm meeting the, the other, the other side of that. And so it's just been a, it's been a fascinating journey just getting to know you, because what I've been thinking about. So if that, that makes sense.
- [16:19]
C
Yeah, no, it's interesting Because, I mean, it may not happen often, but I do know, you guys get shot at. That's not normal. I mean, there's no world in which, yeah, I got shot at last night. Like, that's not normal either. And so I think for spouses, sometimes it's. It's knowing who you married, understanding. And then in this culture, and I know we're going to talk about, like, fire to cop, like, when you. It makes you that much. It makes you almost have a little bitterness and anger in your heart when you see these people, you know, talking shit about cops when they're not willing to do the job and they don't realize that the beautiful humans that most of you really, really are, you just have to have this level of almost cockiness and arrogance because if you're scared all the time, you can't do what you do. You have to have that mean look on your face and that. You know what I mean? And so, like, when you're training and people, you know, even sometimes within the same department, you know, regular patrol officers, like, oh, yeah, the SWAT guys, you know, there's always that, like.
- [17:26]
A
Yeah.
- [17:26]
C
But you have to carry yourself in a manner that you think you can't die because otherwise your brain's not going to let you run into gunfire or run into a dangerous situation. So I think that holds true when you're training as well and you're talking to these guys like, this is dangerous, but, like, you've got to know what you're doing.
- [17:44]
A
Yeah.
- [17:45]
C
So there's a lot of oxymorons and contradictions and things like that. And I just, I don't think there's no way a civilian could understand or a spouse, just as it's hard for you understand.
- [17:57]
A
Yeah.
- [17:57]
C
But it's just who you are and what you have to do.
- [18:00]
B
Yeah, no, it's. It, it is a. Like, I think the reality of this job hit you in one day, that you. That you had no idea that you knew about it, but it smacked you in the face in one day.
- [18:19]
C
Yeah. And, you know, as a spouse or a wife, a girlfriend, a significant other, whatever, there's no way you're not thinking about the fact that this could happen. And we know that it's a dangerous job, but generally when I would do that, I would go to statistics and go, well, statistically, he's going to retire and maybe, I don't know, be an alcoholic. Right. But the fact that, to think of him getting shot and killed is. It seems more prevalent, but it's also how much Are you seeing. And it's still statistically not a very prevalent.
- [18:54]
A
Yeah.
- [18:54]
C
Thing. When you think about how many police officers there are. But so you. You do think in your brain, what would that be like? But then it actually happening is beyond.
- [19:06]
A
Yeah.
- [19:06]
C
And so I know that even for our SWAT team and all the surrounding SWAT teams and even across the country, it was like, yeah, a holy moment. And especially as they're going out and doing debriefs, I mean, there are some lessons learned and there are some things, but for the most part, like, it's just part of a hostage rescue, and it is one of the dangerous things that SWAT's going to be doing. So. Yeah. Actually happening. It's. It's truly unimaginable. And I, I like to think that the role that I've played in our circle healing, I hope, has been helpful because I had a guy tell me out at the SWAT competition in Nevada, he looked at me and said, you know, I'll get these guys. And they just kind of pour their heart out because it's just things they wouldn't talk about the guys and they're like, you know, we have a guy we lost on our, on our team, and his widow sort of sets the tone, and if she's okay, we're okay. And it's kind of like, oh, God, no pressure. But I know that men process things differently. So I've. I've learned a lot about the survivor's guilt is real.
- [20:11]
A
Yeah.
- [20:11]
C
And really just trying to say to them, look, it happened exactly how it was supposed to, and this is how we're going to heal together. And so there is a lot. So just backing up to, you know, it actually happening. It really does hit home. But I think that's why what I'm doing and that we're talking about it and that we're debriefing it and that we're talking about lessons learned is the best way to move forward. Can't just sweep it under the rug and not get better.
- [20:36]
A
Yeah.
- [20:37]
C
Otherwise it was for nothing.
- [20:38]
B
No. And that's. And that's. It's a hard thing. Like, there's people and they won't do well in their career on SWAT if they can't do a legitimate debriefing and own up to what they've done. What I've seen in my career is that if you can't do that, you're not going to last on a team environment. And you're even. I mean, you're taking it to another level of, of, of just Doing something that's so personal. So that's awesome that you understand that.
- [21:07]
C
I do.
- [21:08]
B
And I will say that, you know.
- [21:09]
C
That if I can interject and just say that I feel like APD SWAT has done a really great job of really looking at this from every angle, every tactical angle. They've been so wonderful to me and so respectful and cleared everything with me and just. I, you know, they. I don't. I'm not owed anything. I. They don't owe me anything. APD doesn't owe me anything. And they have been. That SWAT team's been stellar and just. I'm so grateful. So I need to give them a shout out because they have really looked at this and handled it very well.
- [21:46]
B
I would disagree. They owe you. In the fact of we. He made the ultimate sacrifice. There's always stuff that any department, when they do that, they should do that because that's just the right thing to do. I know you don't look at it that way, but as someone who is on the inside of this, you damn better be.
- [22:07]
C
And I feel that I. You know, they say you're a family now. And it's. It's been amazing and actually does get overwhelming. Sometimes. I cry tears of gratitude and love and it's been overwhelming the support that I've gotten. And, you know, I'm from Florida and coming to Texas. I've never been so prayed for in my whole life. I mean, that's good. Yeah, it's good. And I just. I. The love and I. And I get that. And I've tried to let people help me, which has been really hard. I'm a strong, independent woman.
- [22:43]
B
Really. I didn't get that. Just didn't get that impression.
- [22:46]
C
And I finally something came over me at the beginning of this that said if I don't allow people to help me, it's cutting them off from their joy and their healing. And I put myself in their shoes and that if I. If any one of the guys that happened to their wives, I just want to hug her and take care of her. And so once I saw it from that perspective, I've been able to allow people to step in and help. Help with the foundation. So it's. We're all healing together.
- [23:17]
A
Yeah.
- [23:18]
C
Yeah, it's great.
- [23:19]
B
No, and that's good. And I think too, it's like for you, I'm sure there's. Anytime you read a story or hear something of another officer, it's like, it probably takes you. It takes you back to. What was it? November, right? November 11th. It takes you back to that. And it kind of almost, I guess, re.
- [23:37]
C
Oh. Relives everything again is brutal. I. I didn't anticipate that. And so I have to be careful about the news and social media and. And we weren't on social at all. Got back, got the foundation going, and so, of course, my algorithm is going to always be fallen officer stuff and things like that. And it hit me hard before because George has been on honor guard through his fire service and as a police officer. And so I've been to quite a few funerals just in support of him, and sometimes that's the only time I got to see him. So I'll meet you there. But. And he was so proud of Honor Guard. And it was important to him that these funerals were done right. He would guard caskets, you know, and homes and there for the spouses and all that. And, you know, I always wondered, like, God, what would it be like to be in that front row? My heart always just ached for that front row. And so when I was in that position and watched how our honor guard handled his funeral with such beauty and grace and respect and dignity, and it was so beautiful. I'm sure there was a little pressure on them because of George's. Yeah. And it. So. So anyway, all that to say, like. So I've been around that. But nothing really prepares you.
- [24:51]
A
No. I mean, no.
- [24:53]
B
Definitely doesn't. That is a journey that hopefully you don't go through, but when you do, there's. There's no. I mean, you can have all the advice in the world, but it's. You're living it right then, and it just. It is a lot.
- [25:09]
C
It's very different, you know, And I want to say, while I'm. While I'm on this, this is all stuff I've learned, and my brain just kind of connects all the. Do you know, I get a lot of spouses that come to me and say, you're so strong. Like, I would never make it through this. And I want them to know that they will. They would. And they.
- [25:25]
A
Yeah.
- [25:26]
C
And you don't necessarily have to think about, you know, your spouse dying, but it isn't a bad idea to talk about what that might look like.
- [25:35]
A
Yeah.
- [25:35]
C
I feel like when you just talk about it a little bit, and George and I did have conversations about sort of gets that. That energy of the unknown out and you get to. But I want all the spouses to know that I don't want them to waste energy on thinking like that worry that if it Happens, I'd never get through it. It's better just to sort of live in the moment, enjoy the time you have. And, you know, the one guarantee we all have is that, like, we're not going to be here forever, you know, and just maybe to not take your days for granted. And it's hard when you're an officer's wife. And because I. We spend a lot of our time, you know. My biggest fights with George were, when do I get to see you again? I just want to see you. I can't believe we're fighting because I want to see you more. And so I feel like all spouses do that. So I just always tried to. Especially after the George Floyd protests and moving here and Covid. That was all such a strange time.
- [26:30]
A
Yeah.
- [26:31]
C
Just to try to enjoy each day that, you know, it's a gift, really. I know that's a cliche, but dwelling on what might happen certainly isn't.
- [26:42]
B
Yeah, well, it's a cliche to some, but it's a reality.
- [26:45]
C
Yeah.
- [26:45]
B
I mean, yeah, it's definitely a reality. And if you've gone through some crazy stuff, then it is a reality to people and stuff.
- [26:52]
C
True.
- [26:53]
B
So George, he was a hose dragger at first.
- [26:56]
C
He was. He was. I know everybody thought he was nuts. Yeah, he was making great money. He was lieutenant with the fire service.
- [27:04]
B
And that's another thing. When I. When I found out he was a lieutenant, I'm like, man, he had rank and then decided to.
- [27:09]
C
He. He. And in Florida, when you're a parent, when you're a firefighter, you have to be a paramedic as well. So that's even more schooling. So. Yes, he was a firefighter paramedic for a Seminole tribe. And it was a really cool department to work for. And then, yeah, got promoted to lieutenant and was able to really make an impact on training. And after the Pulse nightclub shooting and the Parkland shooting, he just knew that he was missing that tactical edge. He wanted to be the first guy in, and it frustrated him that so many had died, especially after Parkland, and he was involved in that. And then we had kids that went there, and it was very close to home. Some of our karate students had friends that, you know, so it was. It was very way too close to home. And we all know that sometimes those school shootings are just debacles. Right. And it's unfortunate and no. No bad intentions. But he had the idea with one of the other officers that he worked with that they would make their firefighters like tac meds. Or put them through Seminole Tribes Police Academy, let them go through police, get them the gear they needed so that they would be everything okay. He wanted to be all of it. He could put out a fire, save your life, and then get the bad guy. Right. So. And I thought it was a fantastic idea. And he got very close, and then it became a budgeting issue. You know how that all happens. And he had watched the documentary, the bomber on APD SWAT team. I think that was back in, like, 2018.
- [28:40]
B
Yeah.
- [28:41]
C
Is that when that was?
- [28:42]
B
Yeah.
- [28:43]
C
Maybe that's when the documentary came out.
- [28:45]
B
Yeah. I can't remember the exact date. You remember that, Matt? What date it was, or maybe it.
- [28:49]
C
Was a little bit before.
- [28:50]
B
But, yeah, it was about.
- [28:51]
D
I was thinking 27. You say 2018. I was thinking 2017, but I can't swear.
- [28:54]
C
So it's probably that the documentary came out in 2018.
- [28:57]
A
Yeah.
- [28:57]
C
So he saw that documentary, and like a little kid. He killed me for telling you this. His profile picture on his laptop was the APD Bearcat. Bearcat. He's like, that's what I want. Like, it was like a light went off. And we had been to Austin a couple times. I had friends from Florida that moved here a while ago. So we had. We'd been out here and visited, and we liked the city. And at the time, APD had almost every. Any unit you could think of, any specialized unit you could think of. So he knew I'd have friends here. He knew they had any and all units that he could. Sky was the limit. Right. And we were in Austin visiting, and he had tried to apply for another department where he could maybe do more of what he wanted to do. And he got the letter that he didn't get that position. And we were on a walk out in Spicewood, and he looked at me and he said it was January 2019. He said, I'm going to apply for APD. So this meant selling our house, selling the karate school, moving to Florida. I said, baby, I just want you to be happy. And. And he had more of a purpose than I did. I just worked, you know, like. But he clearly. This was. It's a difference when you have, like, a passion and something that's pulling you towards something that you can't avoid. And I said, effort. Let's go for it, you know? So he applied.
- [30:17]
B
Did you say, eff it, or.
- [30:18]
C
I said it. Yeah. You said, yeah, because we're easing into this. We're only 30 minutes in. F bombs will come. Don't worry. I'm not angry yet. So he applied, went through the process, and we sold our house, closed the karate school, and did our last black belt test in May. Had a big party to say goodbye. And we were in Austin in June. And he starts renting an apartment. He starts the police academy.
- [30:45]
B
How old was he when he did this?
- [30:48]
C
Mid-30s.
- [30:48]
B
Okay. So he's not. He's not a young man starting the police again.
- [30:51]
C
He's so old in police world.
- [30:53]
B
Yes.
- [30:53]
C
Right. Like, definitely. I mean, these guys were. Some of them were 20. I mean, they're babies. And. And the age wasn't even as much of the issue as, you know, during the academy. They're like, how many people here have seen a dead body? And. And, like, there's people that hadn't seen it. So, yeah, he was just miles. So he took a leadership role in the class, of course. Yeah. Helped out, helped, you know, motivate people. You know, I feel like that might have been the last class where it was a little bit. Bit tougher. I don't know. He felt like it wasn't hard enough. It needed to be harder. They needed to be pushed harder. But anyway, get. Get through that. And so he gets cut loose in January of 2020, and we all know what's coming in 2020. So here he's come from being a beloved karate instructor, a beloved firefighter, and.
- [31:46]
B
So his Rookie year is 2020. Oh, my. Yeah, man.
- [31:50]
C
I think. I think. And. And this might be. I might be off a few days. You know, the. The protest started, and I think he worked. I want to say it was anywhere from like 17 to 20 days straight of the protests. And, you know, he started out, he'd leave for work and he'd throw his cap on backwards. He didn't have anything that looked violent or. Or intimidating. And he. He literally thought, this is so George. He starts talking to these people, you know, he's like, I. I can talk to him. They've got to be sensible people. Like, day three, he's getting water bottles thrown at him. He's getting spit on. He's like, okay, I guess I gotta start covering up, protecting myself.
- [32:28]
B
Because he was used to firemen. Everybody loves the firemen.
- [32:30]
C
They walk in a room. I made him keep his bunker gear. Yeah, you at least better keep your bunker here and put that on occasionally for me. Yeah. And he did. I'm like, all right, throw your bunker gear on. I need. I need a minute. The cop world was.
- [32:47]
B
I bet you were in culture shock, because they're. They're not the same. It's yeah.
- [32:52]
C
All right. Culture shock. So we go to their graduation, badging, whatever you call it. We walk into this big banquet room, and, I mean, you could hear a pin drop. Like, where's the band?
- [33:06]
A
Yeah.
- [33:06]
C
Where's the dance floor? Where's the bar? What is happening? I mean, stiff, quiet, boring. And I was like, this is. Firefighters are not. Now that I've gotten in, you guys can let loose. But, wow, real different. And so, yes, it was a. It was a culture shock. And then, you know, in the fire service, all the things that you guys are probably jealous of, you know, they're in the house 24 hours together, they cook together, they work out together, they watch, you know, whatever they do, but they can go, all right, let's go out and train. And, you know, George would always get them up and get out to train, and he build houses so they could do search and rescue. He was, oh, never denied training. I mean, he's got a book thicker than thick of all the certifications and all the things he's done. And then he'd come back and teach everybody and be all pumped to show them and, you know, make sure the engine was good and. And, you know, everything was set right and all the apparatus, everything. He just. He just loved it. He loved it so much. And he. He was all about rep, reps, reps, reps. Even if it was a smoke alarm, you know, grab all the huff up the stairs, get everything. They're like, we don't need it. Doesn't matter. Grab it. Make sure you can carry all this up the stairs. Just use it as a rep. So anyway, very different. If they worked on holidays, we'd all go up to the firehouse. We'd hang out, we'd all eat together. We'd. And so that was a big culture shock to him. And then, in addition to that, I don't think either of us realized how fulfilling teaching the kids was, how much fun they were. They'd run in and give us hugs, tell us about their day. You know, he mentored and taught thousands, probably, of karate kids and got them through their black belt and pushed them physically. And their parents looked at us as like, we helped raise these kids, you know, and we didn't realize how fulfilling. So you come off of the firehouse, that brotherhood that he so craved, and then the karate, and then coming into policing just being what it is. But now you're in these protests where everybody hates you.
- [35:08]
A
Yeah.
- [35:09]
C
And then there's no place where everybody goes and hangs out. It's like, where's the brotherhood here.
- [35:15]
A
Yeah.
- [35:15]
C
And then the defunding starts, and now he's like, holy shit. Like, what I came here for? All these guys are getting pulled onto patrol. I didn't come here to work patrol for the rest of my life. I'll do my. I'll do my time. So it was a huge culture shock for both of us. We're living in an apartment, you know, trying to buy a house. It's Covid. We both have essential jobs, which was at least good. So we got to be a. Was somewhat normal. But, I mean, it would have been a culture shock alone just to come into policing right then to have all that happen, too. We were like, what in the world did we do? Although, you know, maybe having the karate school during. COVID would have been bankrupt, you know, so there are things. It all happened how it's supposed to. But then he sort of found. He's like, all right, I've got a. I'm in charge of my own destiny here. And he just sort of seeked out and found all the best people. People were like, how'd you get into that training? And he's like, you know, we talked about that. Low people in high places, whatever he said. And he just. Eye on the prize. And, I mean, hustled. Pushed hard.
- [36:20]
B
When you said hustle, I was. I was thinking in my mind, you got a hustle in this business.
- [36:23]
C
Hustled. He had to seek it out. He had to find it. He was a proactive police officer. He worked DTAC downtown. He got on cast, SRT, honor guard, Any SWAT training they'd offer. Second day at SWAT school. He tried out as soon as he could. Like, he worked with Metro tac. He anywhere action was and would meet all the right people, get into all the trainings he could get into. And there were definitely struggles. And Austin is not an easy city to be a police officer in. And he was in many of IA investigations, which, to me, I was like, good for you. Means you're doing work. You're out there doing work. Keep doing it. Keep doing it.
- [36:58]
B
That is.
- [36:58]
C
He'll keep taking you back to jail. That guy's gonna let you out, but he's gonna keep on taking you until you get tired of it and. And fix your life. And that's good. But he would talk to these people, you know, he was a special guy. Like, bro, what are you doing? Yeah, you have kids? You have a wife? What's going on? Why do you keep doing this? And just. Just a great guy would help anybody and Wanted to learn and wanted to. To be better every day. He just wanted to be the best and wanted to be better every day.
- [37:23]
B
Now, did you ever ride out with him or anything?
- [37:25]
C
Secretly.
- [37:26]
B
Secretly.
- [37:27]
C
Am I allowed to say that? We were at lunch with the take home car. That's how it started. He said, you want to start some? I said, yes, I do. And we did.
- [37:36]
B
Well, good.
- [37:37]
C
I don't know that I would have wanted to ride out with him. Yeah, you know, there's things that you just don't even. Even now that I'm shooting more, I'm definitely more receptive to feedback, you know, our husbands shouldn't be teaching us stuff, you know? Yeah, I didn't want to know. I. I'd see a lot of the body cam he'd send me. He's like, now delete it. You know, he'd send me stuff and go, this was great. Wait till you see this, you know? And I'm like, is it bad that I'm laughing? And he's like, all right, now delete it. And I can say all this now, but how much trouble could I get in? But I'm like, why does it look like you were in that alley all by yourself? Well, I don't know. I'm like, you shouldn't, shouldn't you wait? He's like, well, the guy had gotten away and so it's just kind of.
- [38:19]
B
What you have to do.
- [38:20]
C
I didn't like to see the stuff he did. He was a little crazy. Yeah, I get that he got in trouble for being crazy, but.
- [38:25]
B
Well, you have to be a little crazy in this job. There's a. There's a fine line that you have to be. So he got on SWAT part time, right?
- [38:34]
C
Part time. Gold team. Yeah. So with gold team, which is really cool now that I've learned about other SWAT teams that they have this part time team really great way. And so that's why he would take anybody's on call. He would work as much as he could. He just loved it and wanted to be sure that when a spot opened up that he was first in line.
- [38:53]
B
And then how long was he on the team?
- [38:56]
C
So January, not long. So he was a scribe with them first. Okay. They have. I don't know if you guys have that.
- [39:04]
B
So not our team, but they had.
- [39:06]
C
Scribes, so anything he could do. So these are the guys that just roll up and like take notes and help you write your reports. So he was a scribe first, and that was just him getting his face in front of people. And any Experience he could, all the trainings they offered he'd be at. So it wasn't until January that he did spin up. So it was really just from January to November when he was killed.
- [39:25]
B
Okay.
- [39:26]
C
That he was on, on the gold team.
- [39:28]
B
So was he on call that night or.
- [39:29]
C
Yes, he was on call that night.
- [39:31]
B
He was on call.
- [39:31]
C
So he had worked a patrol shift. I mean, and I thank God for this all the time too. His shifts, those detach shifts are crazy. They can even change throughout the week. But it could be either a 2 to 12, a 3 to 1, a 5 to 3 if you're doing cast like it was nutty.
- [39:47]
A
Yeah.
- [39:47]
C
And he hated the 2 to 12 shift actually because by the time he woke up, up, got a workout in, he was turning around, going back. But I loved the 2 to 12 shift just because if he got home before 1 1:30, that was early for us. And yeah, so he had texted me pretty early before 12, like I'm unloading. And on my way I was like, holy shit, that's awesome. I'm like, all right, I'll wait up. And I work on Saturdays generally, so I usually leave the house about nine. So I was like, all right, good, I'll wait for you. So because he was on a 2 to 12 shift and because for whatever reason he got done unloaded early and came home, I got to see him for a few hours before they were called out at just after three in the morning. And so to have that last night with him was very special. Yeah, because normally I don't. And if it had been a normal night, he would have been called out like from shift and gone. So yes, he was on call. And I've never seen anyone jump up, never complained. We'd be in the middle of dinner, we'd be out to dinner. He took everyone's on call. So that world is not easy. You know, I've been left at heb. I've been left at restaurants, I've been left places to Uber home. I'm just like, all right, see you later. He'll go, you've got me all day Thursday. And I'd walk out to the, to the garage for something. There's a take home car. I'm like, wait, what happened? He goes, but I'm here now. I'm like, but, but you're on call. He goes, yeah, but I'm here. Like, okay, let's go to Fredericksburg. He's like, I can't do that. Like, see, I don't got you for real. But okay. But no. So he was on call and always hopped up, never complained, got in the car, got there as fast as he could if it meant getting to the compound to get the bearcat first. You know I told you about the bearcat being his picture.
- [41:30]
A
Yeah.
- [41:30]
C
He was like a little kid. If he could get that thing, he was happy to get it. But. Yeah. So he was on call that night. Yeah. So the pager went off. I think we had probably just closed our eyes. You know how that goes. And he hopped up, got dressed. Thank God. He always kissed me goodbye, always said, I love you. And he. He always said, see in a bit. He never said goodbye.
- [41:49]
A
Yeah.
- [41:50]
C
So I'm grateful to have had.
- [41:51]
B
And at this point, probably this is kind of just a routine for you. You're like, okay, yeah. You're going.
- [41:55]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [41:56]
B
It's like.
- [41:56]
A
It's.
- [41:56]
C
Yeah. The thing that was better about fire is the tones didn't wake me up, so my sleep was constantly disrupted, which was very new for me, because in fire, he just went. Came home.
- [42:07]
A
Yeah.
- [42:08]
C
Here it's like he rolls in the garage, comes up. The dogs wag their tail, they bark. He puts all the. Down the Velcro. He takes a shower. You know, it's. Now I'm up. Right. And then.
- [42:18]
B
It's so funny, you say the Velcro. Every wife I've ever spoken with or talked about that the Velcro is always the damn. It's weird trigger that wakes people up and stuff.
- [42:28]
C
It's weird.
- [42:29]
B
And it just. It goes.
- [42:30]
C
It's so weird. There's things that I hear to this day that remind me.
- [42:34]
A
Oh.
- [42:35]
C
Of him being home or coming home or, you know. And of course, bullets in your laundry and.
- [42:40]
A
Yeah.
- [42:41]
C
Just shoes and uniforms because I made them get undressed when you walked in the garage by the laundry room. It's just gross. I don't know who you were rolling around with. I don't know what's going on.
- [42:50]
B
Especially. You get gas that day.
- [42:51]
C
Oh, God. Yeah. So. So. Yeah. That's also very different.
- [42:56]
A
Yeah.
- [42:57]
C
From. So if. If you're marrying someone that's turning into something. Fire.
- [43:03]
B
No, it definitely is. In this profession and swat. To be. To be good at it and to. To dedicate yourself. It is a mistress to your marriage.
- [43:15]
C
Oh, for sure.
- [43:17]
B
And. And that's a hard thing. It. It.
- [43:19]
C
I'd say it's a second wife.
- [43:21]
A
Yeah.
- [43:21]
B
Yeah.
- [43:21]
C
He's the mistress. Is like. I don't know.
- [43:25]
B
Yeah, It. It is. And. And you definitely pay the price for that. And. And it's A Definitely a. An interesting dynamic.
- [43:36]
C
It is.
- [43:37]
B
When it comes to that.
- [43:38]
C
It is. And you know, I, I struggled with it and I really just thought, well, I mean, madly in love with him. There's no one else I'd rather be with. He's my favorite place to be, my favorite person to be with. This is what he's destined to do. And if I prevent him from doing what he wants to do, what kind of man do I have? And so I'll take what I can get. And so it's a conscious choice that you make. And I made very conscious decisions not to get into shit or a fight before he was heading to work or give him a hard time about something. It was a lasting. He needed, I knew, to give him space when he came home. You know, I, I can't imagine.
- [44:19]
A
Yeah.
- [44:19]
C
That intensity constantly. Especially nights in Detach, which is our like a 12 by 12 block area of downtown.
- [44:26]
A
Yeah.
- [44:26]
C
That gets unruly and dirty.
- [44:29]
B
Six area.
- [44:30]
C
It's, it's, you know, especially when you're policing the way that he did. And to come home and think you're just going to be all zen and like, hey, baby, how was your day? It's the last thing. They need us. So. What are you doing? Where'd you go? You need to. This. Yeah. Dishwashers broke the this that the other. The dogs were throwing. You know, all those things. It's like, you know, take your minute but also communicate, you know, and so there's a whole. We could do. We could do a two day podcast just on marriage and you guys and communication and all that. But I've had time to really process a lot of it and being around more of you all and having a better understanding that there's just. It's not how you guys don't want to be dicks. Sorry. You don't want to be just natural.
- [45:20]
A
Yeah.
- [45:20]
C
But yeah, I mean, and then, and then I've learned a lot about what anger really means. It's kind of a mask for just pain and trauma and.
- [45:29]
A
Yeah.
- [45:30]
C
You know, and then you can't really tell us all the shit you see because he's told me some of his worst calls in fire and I can't get them out of my head. Head.
- [45:37]
A
Yeah.
- [45:38]
C
Of what I envisioned when he told me. I never told him that because I didn't want him to think he couldn't talk to me. But. Wowza.
- [45:44]
B
Yeah. I definitely never encourage anyone to marry into the law enforcement community. I'm like, run. Flee. Like do not.
- [45:54]
A
Or. Yeah.
- [45:56]
B
I'm Just that, that's just me. So hostage, hostage call, patrol gets there. They, I guess got two people came out of the house, said, hey, this is what's going on. Once SWAT gets there, they decided, hey, we need to make him basically emergency entry. They go in, start clearing the house. And long story short, the guy from listening to that debrief, I mean, heavily armed.
- [46:20]
C
Heavily armed, yeah.
- [46:23]
B
Helmet, ballistic helmet, ballistic vest. Rifle had a peck on there. AR style rifle, pistol with, I think, suppressor on it.
- [46:32]
C
Well, he had, I, from what I understand, like over $20,000 worth of tactical gear. He probably had more than the guys had.
- [46:39]
B
And that's. And then once again, that's a, that's a unusual.
- [46:42]
C
I believe there was even some bomb making stuff they found in there too. Yeah.
- [46:47]
B
And. And then he basically barricaded the door, had like an ambush position. When they started breaching the door, shot through, hit one officer in the leg and then hit George in the head.
- [47:01]
C
George actually got shot three times.
- [47:03]
B
Three times. Okay. Okay. I didn't, I didn't realize that.
- [47:05]
C
Yeah, so I guess, you know, as they're clearing the house and, and the guys have been so sweet. I had told them very early on that George used to like, take items on the table and show me how, because he'd practice all this at the house, clearing the house. I'd hear magazines dropping on the floor and, you know, he just would dry fire all the time. Like it was just, it was just constant. And so they kind of explained it to me. You know, it took months because they had to go through all their, you know, interviews, body cam, all that kind of stuff. And one of the team leaders, once it was all said and done, made a point to sit down with me for as long as I wanted to kind of show me how it all went way more than I expected or felt like they didn't owe that to me. But it was so sweet that they wanted to show that to me. Because the problem is, I don't think you all realize that people like me and spouses, you know, we fill in the blanks and women are terrible at making it a billion times worse than, than maybe what really happened. Not that it could have been any worse, but, you know, when they withhold information, so the more, you know, your brain stops playing all those tricks and fill ins. So I think they probably instinctively knew that the more I knew, the less I would. The less unknown there would be. But getting back to that. Yes. So when they finally got to that, that last and final locked door, and then called for the breach and realized that even when they tried to push it open that it was barricaded, then that's when they knew that he was there. And, yeah, the second they started pushing that door down, because John. Oops. I don't know if I'm allowed. I guess I can say his name at this point. Yeah, everybody knows who it was, but when he. When he kicked the door is when he got. Got shot in the left leg and then I think took some shrapnel in his shoulder as well. And. And so George, you know, now obviously they know where the guy is and where the gunfire, so. So George immediately went to neutralize the threat and get into the game. And I guess as he went to turn, that's when he took three shots at the hip, shoulder, and head on the left side. And yeah, fortunately, it was instant, but it took a minute to find that out. And so, you know, knowing that he didn't suffer is just. Has been a godsend, too. And, you know, just once I knew that that was the case, all my concern and energy went. Went to the guys because I knew that if George had come home and told me one of his brothers had been killed, he'd probably still be a different man today. Yeah, and we talk about it a lot, and it's something that, you know, I sat in a tattoo parlor with George when he got those big. Across his chest, you know, protect my brothers, everyone goes home. And I remember it was probably 11, 12 years ago now. I was like, this is a crazy commitment. Like, I didn't understand. You know, I. I just didn't get it. I'm like, all right, that's. That's a little much, don't you think? Like, you know, and it was so. It meant so, so much to him. Almost as if he manifested, if anything ever happened, his brothers would go home, and that's all that mattered to him. And so for that to have truly been the case was astounding. And I didn't even think of the tattoo until one of his. His best friends on swat, you know, brought it to everyone's attention. And I was like, oh, my God, like, it's crazy. So anyway, I'm veering off, going back to the incident. Sorry, I'm getting better. About circling back. I just.
- [50:42]
B
This is your show.
- [50:45]
C
You know, so there's a lot of things that have come out of it that I try to decide, like, you know, what hill am I going to die on? Is it. Is it the training and, you know, to get all his stuff back which was really hard to see and do, but I was so grateful because I didn't get to see him at all until, until Wednesday and he was killed on Saturday. And that was really, really hard for me. It was just. It took on a life of its own.
- [51:07]
A
Yeah.
- [51:08]
C
And when I, that's another thing I didn't realize. I mean, it's just my husband, you know. But no, it was APD's. It was the first SWAT officer. The honor, it was just. It took on a life of its own and affected and impacted so many people.
- [51:23]
B
But yeah, if you've never been to a, a line of death duty funeral, it is, it's, it's overwhelming.
- [51:32]
C
It's overwhelming.
- [51:33]
B
When I was in the academy in 98, we lost an officer. And I mean, I'm 23 years old and I'd been in the academy for like, like three months, two and a half months. And I didn't know what I was getting into. I was like, this is the, one of the most powerful things ever gone to. And I don't even know this man. I just know he worked around an apartment and to see the whole city just, I mean, it was insane. And like I went to when they had the Dallas five and they had, I mean, they had all. I mean, it was, it was overwhelming. I've been in the department for I don't know how many years, 15, 17 years at that time. So I was used to going. But that was even another one to me. I'm like, man, this is just so. They're very powerful. I will say in the police community we do a damn good job. As far as everyone coming together from Canada to New York, Chicago and I mean just, there's just honor guard that just come down there for you. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it is, it is. And I can't imagine and being the wife of this and seeing all that and being new into police work and not even knowing all this is about to take place and being in the middle of this storm, like just how overwhelming that is.
- [52:44]
C
And even though I had been to several funerals and probably had been exposed to more than some wives are, just from George being an honor guard, I don't know. There's so much, it's so different. And there was a lot of people at his funeral and it was. And then you guys are also so humble and so I know he would have just been like, why are they doing this for? You know, you know, and it just becomes, it, like I said, it takes on A life of its own. And it just. I. I'm still wrapping my brain around the community and all the people that came and all the chiefs from Colorado to Florida to New York to Chicago with. With patches or checks or to Just to give us their condolences. And the effort.
- [53:34]
A
Yeah.
- [53:35]
C
And it was no effort to them.
- [53:36]
A
No.
- [53:37]
C
And the stuff honor guard has to lug and they have to drive and fly with, and now that I know everything that went into it, and not a single complaint. It was just out of pure duty and solidarity and just so beautiful. And especially because of George having been a firefighter and a paramedic and police and honor guard and swat. There was so many SWAT teams. There's so many honor guard. There was more fire, maybe than usual. And paramedics and. And his guys flew out from Florida. Yeah, I know. We had their honor guard and fire from Florida, and our karate families came, and it was just like George. I knew that he was a special person, but, like, to see that all come, all those people together and united in that way. And still. I still try to keep fire very involved with the foundation. It's a little different. They don't quite have the same needs when it comes to training. You know, maybe they get the opportunity more so. But important to me that I keep them involved. And, you know, with cast, you know what CAST is the Counter Assault Strike Team. That's the team of four in downtown Austin. So it's two officers, a paramedic, and firefighter.
- [54:51]
B
Oh, okay.
- [54:51]
C
I don't know how involved fire is is at this point, but they would just be positioned, stationed, posted up, whatever you guys, whatever your language is in downtown so that they could get the stabbings and shootings quicker.
- [55:04]
B
Quicker. Okay.
- [55:04]
C
And it was all of them. So you have police, medic, fire.
- [55:08]
B
So they're just one unit.
- [55:09]
C
They're one unit. They're right there. Of course, Austin, the media doesn't talk about the great work they're doing and all the lives they see.
- [55:15]
B
Of course not.
- [55:15]
C
It's a great model. And I know some other departments are looking at it and implementing that, but George was so proud of that, because that was the whole point. Right. To get them all working together.
- [55:23]
A
Yeah.
- [55:24]
C
So you could have police there. And so he got to use his medical skills and teach people. Right on. Have them packing wounds. They were like, who is this guy? You know? And so. So he loved that. Again, I'm circling. Where am I? Help me out, Brandon. What are you talking about? So funeral.
- [55:39]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [55:40]
C
I do want to say something.
- [55:41]
A
Yeah.
- [55:43]
C
When you talked about that funeral and how many people came out, his procession was incredibly long. They basically shut Austin down to do it and took us up Congress, down 6th street and up Congress, which was George's favorite path to drive up towards the Capitol. I mean, he made every visitor we had go to the Capitol building, go to the Peace Officer memorial. And so it was beautiful that they put him in the Bearcat, which was amazing. I mean, I lost it. That was so beautiful. And the medics that cared for him were in the back with him the whole time. And there was so, so much meaning and everything was done with such beautiful intention that I don't think most people not deep in it would know. And I suddenly was terrified. I thought, they're making a huge mistake. I thought people were going to throw things at the Bearcat. You know, this is the same place that they were protesting.
- [56:35]
A
Yeah.
- [56:36]
C
Just four and a half years ago. And thinking, gosh, these same people would be happy for what had happened. Right. And then in stark contrast, to drive up that street and see all the flags with the Blue line on 6th street where he patrolled and really, really, genuinely tried to make it safer so people could have a good time and get these, you know, punks with guns and drugs off the streets, like, he really thought he could do it. I called him Batman. I'm like the bat lights on, you know, and then to go and see and get so much support and have people on the overpasses and kids come out and we support our law enforcement officers and. And thank you, officer Pastor. And so that was so beautiful. So it's out there.
- [57:20]
A
Yeah.
- [57:21]
C
There are normal people that do support and understand there's a need for it.
- [57:26]
B
The other is it's just such a small, small percentage. I don't even know if it's even a percent.
- [57:31]
C
It's like a half percent.
- [57:33]
A
And.
- [57:33]
B
And they just are so loud and just ruin it for.
- [57:37]
C
Yep.
- [57:37]
B
And. And they cause so many issues for. For things. But I'm glad you experienced that. And it can look back on that with, With. With the smile on your face and go, that. That's a fond memory to have, even though it's a tragedy. But to get that. So going back to the. Them talking you through, hey, this is what happened. Would you recommend that for other spouses that.
- [57:59]
A
That.
- [57:59]
B
That had that, or is that just because of your personality?
- [58:02]
C
I think it's. Well, I would have answered this question probably differently six months ago and a year ago, but I do think, think I do think it's my Personality. I've always thought about things differently than people, and I've only learned that over the last year. I've heard if I had a nickel for every time I heard somebody say, that's an interesting perspective. I've never thought about it that way. It makes me realize that I do have a different way of thinking about things. I don't know why that is. I have no, no clue. I don't know if it's the way I was brought up, the struggles and. And tribulations I've been through already in my life. I just know. And. And maybe someone can't think that the more you know, the less your brain runs wild.
- [58:47]
A
Yeah.
- [58:48]
C
There is truth to. Once you know, you can't unknow it, you can't unsee it, you can't unhear it.
- [58:53]
A
Yeah.
- [58:53]
C
So I think baby steps is helpful. And then if you get to a point where you're like, okay, that's way too much. And sometimes you can get your questions answered just with words. You don't have to see it. You don't have to talk anymore about it. And a lot of what I wanted to know was, did he suffer? And it took a minute, and then you start to wonder, are they just telling you that? Is this the truth? Because the story changes as more information unfolds. And as a civilian, you have to realize, wait, are they just bullshitting me?
- [59:23]
A
Yeah.
- [59:24]
C
And then now I know there's a lot they don't know. It's chaos. It's pure chaos until they get a chance to talk to everybody and see Bobby Kim. So I. I know that. So to answer your question, I think that the most important thing is to at least consider what the spouse wants and asks for. And if she asks for it more than like, 3, 5, 7, 10 times, chances are she needs it or he needs it, or, you know, the spouse needs it.
- [59:55]
B
I think one of the things that. That really kept playing in my mind when I listened to the podcast you did on the debrief with what, John Becker. Becker, yeah.
- [60:06]
C
Wonderful guy.
- [60:07]
B
I real early in the. Just the part where you're describing, hey, this is what happened when they informed me the notification. And then when I went, didn't this. And I went and did this, I was in my truck driving to the airport, going, going, just quit telling her no on stuff. I'm like, this has to be your journey. And even though you don't know necessarily what your journey is, what you need at the time, but it. The questions need to be asked. And, like, there has to be that give and take the conversation, even though it's ugly and no one wants to volunteer for it. But there ha. There's like, there has to be someone. This stands up and come go. All right, Kim, what do you need? What do we need to do for this? Do you need to. This. Do you not need this? You saying you want this? Okay, well, let's do this right. And. And. And that. And. And it's not for everybody, because everybody has their own path. Like we were talking about today. You didn't have young kids. You weren't young and 25 years old. And this happens. You're older in life. There's more experience. There's not little kids. So everybody has their own path to go through there. But let that be their own path.
- [61:23]
C
Right. And. And the bottom line is you don't know me. And if I ask for it and you give me a fair warning or you say, this might be difficult and I still want it, it's on me. I'm a big girl, you know, because those things keep you up at night. Those things impact your. Your trauma in a way that is really hard to shake. And there. There's no redo. I don't get to do this again.
- [61:47]
A
Yeah.
- [61:47]
C
Trust me, I'm never doing this again. So it's not like, oh, well, next time this happens, Kim, we'll be sure to. To take you, you know. Yeah, there's no redo.
- [61:56]
A
Yeah.
- [61:57]
C
There's only, let's get better. And that's why that debrief with John was so important for me to do, and it took a while for me to decide to do it. And we can all hope this never happens again, but it's going to. And there is. There is protocol, and there is a procedure, and if you just lean on the procedure and protocol for how best to handle a line of duty death notification, you don't have to worry about what you think. Think. Here's what I wanted. And anybody who hears that the most important person in their life has been injured, hurt, or killed, you want to go to them. And it was very different than seeing his injuries. That's not what I was asking.
- [62:37]
A
Yeah.
- [62:37]
C
I wanted to be where he was. And I. And I mentioned this in the John Becker podcast because it took me a while to realize, like, if that's not. Not a natural response, then why were there hundreds of police officers at the hospital?
- [62:51]
A
Yeah.
- [62:52]
B
When you said that on that podcast, it really hit me. I was like, damn, she's.
- [62:55]
C
What else would you do? Like, you find out What? He. He's been killed. Why are you going to the hospital? Right. Like.
- [63:01]
B
Yeah. There's no.
- [63:02]
C
And so it's the same, if not more.
- [63:05]
A
Yeah.
- [63:06]
C
You. Your body's screaming at you to be where they are, and you're being told no.
- [63:13]
B
Well. And that's when I was listening to that. I was thinking in my mind, like, what do you do after that? Like, they're the. Like, you just sit at the house. Like, I mean, like, it's so. Like you're in a prison, and you're like, well, okay, I gotta move. I gotta do something. And then, like, that's just like you said. That's just the natural thing. Like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. But at least I'm in the same building. At least I'm closer. And there's. There's more fill in the blanks that I think you would get in your head than at your house.
- [63:42]
C
Yes.
- [63:43]
A
I don't.
- [63:43]
B
I don't know. That was just a fact. It was. It was very interesting that I never thought about that.
- [63:48]
C
Yeah. And it was. It was like. I don't know. It was. You know, and. And what's. What's interesting to me is that none of you would be stopped from going to see your person.
- [63:59]
A
Yeah.
- [64:00]
C
If it happened to you.
- [64:01]
A
Yeah.
- [64:02]
C
And I knew. I somehow knew not to get in my car and drive. And, you know, you've got 11 officers. You know, I don't know if you just go into. I've got to obey these people. I don't know. I don't know. And that's not. That's not me. And so I think, you know, getting his stuff back and that was a battle, and then having some agency, so to speak, over anything that was going on. And you have to be very careful, because if one more person said to me, you know, whatever you need, need, I'm like, it's. You don't mean it. Because I haven't gotten anything that I've needed. I've had to. I've had to kind of work around. But also, my heart was breaking for the guys. My heart. You think Chief wanted to come to the door and do that? They looked like deer in headlights. They were traumatized. Nobody knew what to do. And so you have to give grace for that. We're all just humans, all just doing our best. So it's never been to point fingers or to say, someone. Someone did this to me, or it's just to say, like, let's not be afraid to talk about it. So Backing up to your original question, I do think it depends on the spouse, and I think that's why it's so important that I know in apd they do have you fill out a form that designates a support officer in case you're just in an OIS or. Or in this case, you know, the situation with George and had they brought me his support officer, it's someone that knew me. And when he finally got to the house, he looked at everybody. He goes, all George ever told me is if I had to come and talk to Kim about anything is to not bullshit her. And I go see, like, it was just having that person that knew. But there might be someone who literally couldn't, would not want to go to the hospital, would not want to even know the details of what happened. And maybe in six months, in a year, in two years, they're ready to know. But I think that's where it's super important that one of one person on the notification team knows the spouse.
- [65:59]
B
Know that and.
- [66:00]
C
Or you've had a conversation.
- [66:02]
B
Yeah.
- [66:02]
C
Have a conversation about it.
- [66:03]
B
And I think too, like, once again, like, there was just so many things building up that weren't on your side.
- [66:10]
C
Yeah.
- [66:11]
B
And the fact of, like, when you said 2020 was his rookie year, I'm like, yeah, that's a. Sucks. And then when I. And then I kind of. I kind of figured that's what it was, was that he was still, quote, new on the team. So there wasn't a foundation of. Of I have 10 years on this team. So I know guys. I.
- [66:28]
C
Right.
- [66:29]
B
I know those spouses. I. There's there because there is. On a team, there is a little more of that fire. Fire mentality where there's a culture because we do things a lot together and things like that. So you didn't even have that support because I remember in the. The podcast you did, you were talking about, well, I want to go up and hug those SWAT guys. And someone said to, you know, I'm like, what the. What do you mean? No, I wanted to.
- [66:49]
C
Yeah.
- [66:50]
B
Because I was looking back at my wife and going, man, she knows everyone on the team. She might not know some guys, you know, as much as she do does the others, but I'm like, there's no. And. And I go back to the man. Man, that was a. Just one of those things. You just didn't know these people as much because he hadn't been on the team as long enough to. To go, well, the person who was designated didn't get to show Up. But someone else that I know that is on the team, is there, there to take that place to go, hey, here's a hug. What the do we need to do for you? Like, you tell me, what do we. You need this. Okay. I'm fighting for. I'm your advocate for that.
- [67:24]
C
And they, you know, and, and, and you wouldn't have known. And those guys came to the house almost every day, and they were going through a lot, especially the guys that, you know, had their weapons taken. I say, yeah, they're on light duty. They can't talk, they're on DNDs, you know, it's like. And I'm just, you know, they'd walk in the house, and I would just like, run to them for any information or anything. How are you? And so you wouldn't have known from the outside that we didn't have that connection. And, you know, there's this, it goes back and forth with George or Jorge, and it's really funny. I think we talked about it because you were like, what do I call him? You know, everybody that week was like, why are they all calling him Jorge? I said, well, when he, he would be happy. They're calling him anything. Yeah, and he would go by either. It's just that through karate and the kids, and we just all adopted sort of the Mr. George kind of thing. And, and, and so, you know, once you get to swat, it was interesting that they barely use last names, so I had to go through, wait a minute, what's your last name? What's your first name? So. But you wouldn't have known. You wouldn't have known. There wasn't. They treated him with the same respect. There was never, oh, he was just a gold team guy, or he, it. You would have never known that. And so I was so grateful for them to, to wrap their arms around me that way as they would. And they tried. And, and two of the guys had come to the house, one of which was George's very good friend, and he was still shocked and still had blood on his uniform and shouldn't have been the one there. You know, he should have been able to go home, take a minute, get a hug from his wife, see his kids, you know, and so it was, it did all of them a disservice by not having three designated people to just handle that part.
- [69:07]
B
And I think, too, our nature is to protect.
- [69:09]
C
Protect. Absolutely. And I knew, I, I, I knew that too, so I didn't, I was trying not to cause them more grief, if that sounds, you know, trying to make it as smooth as I could, but it was a very awkward. And I. And I think, you know, them coming into the house and the same as you said, sitting here with me and how real it makes it. And when you showed me that video of.
- [69:30]
A
Yeah.
- [69:31]
C
Of what you had done, I. I don't think they accounted for being in his home and seeing me and our pictures and our wedding photos and our little notes to each other. And, you know, they. They thought it. I'd always put a note like, don't forget your radio. I love you. Because you freaking leave his radio all the time and his coffee ready to go. And just. That's the last thing you need when you're trying to process something. I mean, you were just in a crazy gunfight. One of your brothers dies, one's injured, one's, you know, like. And then now you're in their home, and it was just too much. And there's a reason why the protocol out there says the three that should be is, you know, know, chief peer support type person and then that support officer. But I think it happened exactly how it was supposed to so that I can speak on it.
- [70:19]
A
Yeah.
- [70:20]
C
And hopefully make it better for what, unfortunately, is going to be someone else. It's not going to stop.
- [70:27]
A
No.
- [70:27]
B
And that is a bad deal.
- [70:29]
A
And.
- [70:30]
B
But that is the reality of this. And it was. It was. It was interesting because after I listened to that podcast, I was on a plane and had a lot of time to think. And one of the things I thought is, when I retire from this job, I'll never. I'll never be killed in line of duty. I'm like, that was a weird thing to think about that I'll die eventually, but once I retire, there's no more of, I might die on the line of duty. It was kind of a weird.
- [70:58]
C
I get it. I get it. And I was grateful that I had that. That. Because I just kept thinking about for George. You know, we don't feel sorry for George.
- [71:09]
A
Right.
- [71:10]
C
Like, now, had he been paralyzed, which. Where he was shot, and I looked at all of it, he would have. And so, I mean, come on.
- [71:20]
A
Yeah.
- [71:21]
C
We don't have to say how that would never work for any. For you all. And so it was just beautiful in a strange sense. So it is weird to talk about these things, to say that if you had to pick a way to go. I'm so happy for him.
- [71:37]
A
Yeah.
- [71:38]
C
You know, I am so happy for him. And then how lucky am I to people lose their spouses all the time to a Variety of things. And then to be put in this community of people that has been so loving and so supportive and allowed me to, you know, carry this on in this way. And, and it has truly. There's been rough days.
- [72:02]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [72:04]
C
So it's been, well, a blessing. I feel lucky.
- [72:09]
B
You're a. A badass. Like, just. You truly are.
- [72:13]
C
Days are really rough, but, like, who am I to complain? I've got this great group of people that they'll say, I'm here for you, for anything. And they really have been. And. Yeah, I mean, and then I got to meet you, Brandon.
- [72:25]
B
Well, but no, I know. I think just. I love your spirit and, and stuff. So what are some.
- [72:35]
A
What are.
- [72:35]
B
What are. What's something that. What you, you said it earlier, Matt, about the question that you had, like, what was the. For what was it about? What's something that you've taken away from this that you're like, man, that was a really good thing. Yeah.
- [72:50]
D
What I was talking about is that we as police, I think as SWAT guys, we think we have the answers. We're like, I can fix this. I know what to do. And we're. We're in a lot of times that works, you know, and so we just kind of roll with that. And I think you have a unique perspective. My wife is a police officer in Dallas for 25 years, and I've got almost 26. We're about 11 months apart. So, you know, she's lived with me this whole thing. So, you know, it's. And she has a lot of context in that regard, and we've had these kind of conversations and not that she, you know, something couldn't happen to her for all those years, but, you know, I've asked her, what would you think you would need? And so you, you know, having this now gone through this experience, you know, what you needed or what helped.
- [73:35]
B
And I think a lot of times.
- [73:36]
D
We believe, we think we know, but we don't mean a not. And again, every situation is. Is different. Every person, every family. But what are some of the things that you think, you know, directly helped you, you know, big or small, over these past, you know, year and a half that maybe people don't realize if.
- [73:55]
C
That makes sense for me and I probably in your marriage, because of her being a police officer, you're in a more unique position and she would definitely have a better understanding. But I do think that's even assumptive because people think because she's a police officer, she'd be able to handle. But at the end of the day, you're her husband. Sure. You're the love of her life. It doesn't matter. Well.
- [74:20]
A
You are.
- [74:22]
C
Today.
- [74:23]
B
I am. Based on the text messages, you. Some.
- [74:28]
C
That's love.
- [74:28]
D
There's.
- [74:29]
C
Yeah, that is love. That is a term of endearment. Just all. All. How you look at it.
- [74:33]
D
She's probably calling it right now, like.
- [74:34]
B
Put me on there.
- [74:35]
C
Yeah, there you go. There you go. I would say, you know, information I have. Cops are not the best communicators, and they are not, I'm told. So I think information. I. I just think as humans, we crave that, to fill those gaps and then to not assume we understand what you're saying.
- [74:58]
B
Yeah, that's a great point there.
- [75:00]
C
So, for example, just the. Just simply that I wanted to go to the hospital. Well, they're not going to let you. You're not going to want to see that. Okay. In what world did I say I wanted to see his gunshot wounds? Right, right. Like, and I had. They looked at me like I had 30 heads when I was like, I just wanted to be in his presence.
- [75:18]
D
Yeah.
- [75:19]
C
If you showed me his pinky. So I then thought he had been blown to literally. And I, like, is there nothing left of him? Because they said there's too much trauma. We don't want you to see him. Well, what does that mean?
- [75:32]
B
Yeah.
- [75:33]
A
Yeah.
- [75:34]
D
What is trauma to you at that point?
- [75:36]
C
What does that mean? So now you've said that to me. Now I'm hyperventilating again, trying to protect you.
- [75:42]
D
At the same time, it's not. It's not doing what you're hoping to do.
- [75:46]
C
Right. And so the hard part is, is there literally not a drop of malicious intent?
- [75:52]
A
Yeah.
- [75:52]
C
There's no one trying to cause me more pain. And then you have traumatized people helping someone going through trauma. And I think that for you all, you don't realize either what this does to all the trauma. You push down all the time, and then you have something big like this happen. And, I mean, you probably all are at the. At the edge all the time anyway, where. Where you're just one critical incident away from really being in a tough spot. So I would say it's almost impossible. And that's why sometimes it can't be a cop. It's got to be. That's where I don't even think cops should be necessarily peer support counselors when they're that in it, because you guys say words and things that you understand or understand, you know, because I'm like, why did he run in the house, the guy was shooting.
- [76:45]
A
Yeah.
- [76:45]
C
I'm like, well, he didn't. I'm like, but he got shot by a guy who was, you know, like, like. And then they're like, no, well, there's this. And I'm like, well, where was he at? Why did he.
- [76:54]
D
There's not a lot of context to it.
- [76:55]
C
Right. And where things are just so natural to you or, you know, my big question was, what was happening for the 40 minutes they were waiting for SWAT where. Why was there ninth? You know, we always. Any civilian rides past an incident, you're like, why are there 7,000 cops here? Right. Like, what is happening? And nothing's happening, happening. And so I think communication, but it's. It's hard for you to know how to communicate with someone, that there is no context for something like this.
- [77:25]
A
No.
- [77:27]
C
And then I think the only way to. To overcome is to have somebody that knows. You have to know your audience. You have to know who you're dealing with. And I think that's where it comes in. Like, that you've got somebody on the team that's like, I know, Kim, we have. And really, honestly, to talk about it, if this were to happen, what would you want? And that's what I'm trying to do with this podcast and ripping this band off and reopening Wounds is to say, guys, wives, couples talk about this.
- [77:56]
A
Yeah.
- [77:57]
C
But also, you don't know what you'd want till it happens. And every incident's so different. I don't even know if I answered your question. But, no, I.
- [78:06]
D
Again, I don't. I don't think there's a. There's not a perfect answer because your scenario is different than. And then the next one and subsequently after that. But, you know, there was. If you had to look back and go, these couple things really changed. It didn't have to be huge, but just whatever you thought just really hit home. That helped you. And was it a friend? Was it the pd? Was it, you know, was it, you know, just an outreach of somebody, you know, that you know, who you know, you said people from Florida, you know, that found out, that they reached out. And so I think there's a lot of layers there. But, like, what did you think that really, looking back, you may not even realize it at the time, but looking back on it now, does that make sense?
- [78:43]
C
Yes. Now that you say that, yes. So the one good thing that the victim services counselor did was they immediately said, who can we call for you? You know, because I was asking for his support officer, over and over. And they had brought him to the hospital. He thought I was on my way to the hospital. I thought he was on his way to me. And so there was a little snafu, if you will, there. And. And then they finally got my very good friend to the house. And we were fortunate that it was, well, early. Early. So there wasn't a lot of. Because it's all very timely in how people get notified and how people find out. And then there's social media and then the rumors start. So they were able to get me, my very good friend who came in and when she got there and took over and grabbed my phone and. And I knew I had phone calls to make and was able to kind of take over and. Because I was a very. Kind of like, what's the next step? Well, what do we do now? I can't just stand in my kitchen. What do we do now? And so her getting there was very incredibly helpful. So you need. It's having that person that knows you and can almost make decisions on your behalf while you're doing what you think that is. And there are things that only you can do. I wasn't going to have her call, call the boys or call some of my best friends. And so. But she was able to. While they're telling, okay, this is the next thing, we need to get permission to release his name. This is what'll happen next. This is. And she was able to take over for that. So I think you just need support. You just need help. You need someone who knows you, who can kind of take. Take on those things on your behalf, I think is probably the most important. But. But you're. The problem is. And what you guys probably don't realize is that our brains aren't just going to go, okay, I believe you. Are you sure? Because then I heard they were doing CPR all the way to hospital. I didn't know that if a police officer gets shot like that, they take you out. They don't leave you, like, as a crime scene person, as they would like a murdered suspect or that guy.
- [80:51]
A
Yeah.
- [80:52]
C
So I'm hearing that they. They pulled him out, they got him to the hospital, they performed CPR all the way. So I was like, oh, so he didn't die instantly? Well, I didn't know that. That's what they do. Right. Because it was a crime scene. Then I was like, well, thank God that you took him out of that evil, you know, situation. But did that mean he was alive? And then I. I thought I'D trick them and say, well, did he, did he get to donate his organs? Because that was important to him. They're like, well, no, because he wasn't alive when he got. So it was very confusing information. Had someone said, when a police officer is shot, we make sure to get them out immediately. We perform life saving measures even if they were dead on scene. It's just something that we do. And when we get them to the hospital, we allow the doctor to pronounce them dead. Just that explanation. You guys just know that? That.
- [81:44]
A
Yeah.
- [81:45]
C
The tech meds just know that. I don't just know that.
- [81:49]
A
Yes.
- [81:49]
C
So then I was like, wait, so he did die instantly or he didn't die. You know, and I mean they did every life saving.
- [81:55]
A
Oh yeah.
- [81:56]
B
They don't stop.
- [81:57]
C
Think of. They don't stop. And so I didn't find that out. So it's, it's. But again, you know, there's no, there's no pointing fingers. There's no blame. It's like you don't know what I don't know and I don't know what you know.
- [82:10]
A
Yeah.
- [82:10]
C
And no one wants to talk to the spouse of a officer who's killed like that.
- [82:18]
D
There's no lesson in the police academy that goes over that.
- [82:21]
C
And there, there couldn't be. And I think that's why it's, it's on you guys as officers to maybe have this conversation. But again, even a spouse isn't going to know what she wants until it happens. I could have. I mean, I guess everybody, I think everybody would want to be where they are.
- [82:39]
A
Yeah.
- [82:40]
C
Just because our brains all work the same way.
- [82:43]
B
Well, I think too, like, I look at that and, and you eat. I'm glad you said it because that's, that's the way I know Matt would be. That's the way I would be. Like, if, if I'm gonna die in this job, I want to do. I want to. It better be me doing some heroic.
- [83:02]
C
Yeah.
- [83:02]
B
Badass. Not. I was sitting at a stoplight in some face just plows me over and.
- [83:09]
C
I like, right, come on.
- [83:11]
B
And I think too, I look at the way my wife would look at that and she'd be just. It would be a different situation.
- [83:17]
C
Totally.
- [83:18]
B
As opposed to, you know what. He knew what he was getting into. He. He volunteered for this. He trained for this. He gave. Yeah, he gave so much time to be put in this opportunity to do this.
- [83:34]
C
He was training for this in fire. He was doing active shooter training and tactical training when he was in fire. This is what he was meant to do.
- [83:42]
B
Because I go back to if to me, there's worse things than death in this job for me personally, meaning I agree, if I didn't go do what I know I should have done, how.
- [83:56]
C
Do I look at my family all the time. I think about it all the time. Which is why what we're doing in the foundation. And it's interesting because, you know, some people get mad, you know, like, those cops weren't doing anything. Why didn't anyone do anything? And I'm like, you can't think that way. If anything, I had compassion for some that maybe wanted to and didn't know what to do. And one of the team leaders on SWAT had explained to me that, you know, because the first patrol officers that arrived took fire. The guy shot at them. And what happens in your brain when you don't train under those circumstances, you're of course going to run away. And then it takes them. It's not like you can just re. Like change your brain's process to go, okay, I'm going to go back there and do that again. Like, I almost died, but I didn't. I'm going to take cover. This is crazy. And then someone else has to get there and kind of figure out what's going on and then. And then be brave enough or skilled enough or trained enough to go back at it again, which maybe would give that person reason to do it. But now you have that. That loop in your brain. And so I actually felt that a lot of those patrol officers maybe wish they had known what to do because there is this notion that. And that is what SWAT's for. Bottom line, that is what SWAT's for. But by the time SWAT gets there, sometimes so much damage can occur.
- [85:28]
B
Well, he was able to barricade himself, prevent the door from opening, you know, and do all that stuff. So that. That. I mean, we talk about that a lot, me and Matt do. Is like the more time you give a.
- [85:38]
C
A. Fortunately, he was an idiot because there was some stuff out of his reach that would have allowed him to get off more rounds and.
- [85:48]
A
Yeah.
- [85:48]
C
And do more. So. So. So they were. They were being watched over there for sure. And grateful for that. And again, you know, had had more officers lost their lives that day, the foundation wouldn't be. There's no way I would do a foundation. You know, it just. It was the way it was. But did we answer questions? Are we on topic? Yeah, I keep asking that.
- [86:09]
B
It's your show, girl.
- [86:10]
C
It's my show.
- [86:12]
B
It's your show. The. So there was survivors, right?
- [86:15]
A
Right.
- [86:16]
B
Of the family. They got some people outright or not the sister.
- [86:20]
C
Yeah. So she's the one who made the 911 call.
- [86:22]
B
So has she ever contacted you or did you ever have any. Has there any been anything like that?
- [86:27]
C
No. I know she's down in the San Marcos area. I haven't heard much. You know, the FBI came in right away and took over that investigation. The father apparently goes back and forth from. From Egypt. This was a bad guy who wanted to do bad things. And we don't know a whole lot. We know he had a lot of tactical gear. I don't think he had a job. A guy who would. Would stab his mother and brother and try to kill his family. We're not.
- [86:54]
A
Yeah.
- [86:54]
C
You know, so I. There are days that. That's another one of those things. Like, am I supposed to explore this? Should we know more? Are they keeping things from us? And I think the answer to that is. Is yes, of course they are. I mean. Mean, what. What truth, honesty are we getting from anything?
- [87:11]
B
So the FBI came in and investigated this and took it over from apd. Interesting. That's.
- [87:17]
A
Yeah.
- [87:18]
C
I don't talk about the. The. The evil guy much, but. Yeah. So there's definitely more to that story.
- [87:25]
B
Yeah, I wasn't aware of that. I wouldn't.
- [87:28]
C
Nobody is. I maybe probably off air. I should. I can. I can tell you some more. I don't know how much I should say. No purpose.
- [87:35]
B
Yeah, we'll keep it at the.
- [87:36]
A
That.
- [87:37]
C
But. Yeah. So there are days when I'm like, wow, I wonder if I should look into that more or see what that's about or. Yeah, we'll probably just leave it at that.
- [87:45]
B
Yeah, no, I. I get that. That's. So I'm glad.
- [87:52]
C
How about this? I'm glad that they neutralized him. I'm glad that I don't have to go through a trial. Feel very fortunate. There are a lot of spouses out there that. Yeah, they're alive. They have to go through trials. They have to rehash it all. They're in jail and. And so I'm glad I don't have to deal with that.
- [88:09]
B
Yeah. That's another just man.
- [88:11]
C
Yeah.
- [88:11]
B
That's reliving it and all that. If you had to go on trial stuff. I think that goes back to. Everyone has their own path and journey in this. That there's no. Really, the only thing that's the same is you lose someone today. But other than that, there's so Many rabbit holes to go down.
- [88:29]
C
Oh, but you were saying. And I. And I thought the same thing. Of all the weights. You know, a lot of you guys talk about retirement. Retirement. And I always say, you know, who are you going to be when you retire? Are you taking care of yourself?
- [88:42]
A
Yeah.
- [88:43]
C
I know that retirement's struggle for some.
- [88:46]
A
Yeah.
- [88:46]
C
Like, what are we doing? What's my purpose? Some are ready for it. They've taken care of themselves. They've kind of, you know, glided into it or had their side hustle or have another purpose ready to go. But I get that. And I don't think you should be afraid to say that. And I. And I'm sure that probably there's no SWAT guy out there that wouldn't say, that's badass. I'd have no problem going out that way, you know, And I immediately thought of that. And so that's why my. My heart and energy went straight to the other guys, because I knew the. That they'd either suffer from. I just didn't want them to live their lives with guilt and. And that we could all heal together and be better because of it. And so I'm hoping that's what the foundation is doing. And. Yeah. Wanting to hug them that day, I could just see it, and I just knew. And I could just imagine George in that spot, watching that casket go by, and it broke my heart in a million pieces.
- [89:46]
B
I would think there's still a. There's a connection to the team that connects you to him.
- [89:51]
C
Yes. And as a matter of fact, someone's like, can I just rub your arm? Touch you? Like, I do feel like they're just.
- [89:59]
A
Yeah.
- [89:59]
C
If there's a piece of him anywhere, it's there. And I feel understood and validated and cared for and protected and, you know, when you lose your person. And George was very much a protector, and I had to let him be that for me because I was so strong, and I knew it was important to him. And so I've learned that that's, like, it's very important to you all to be able to protect people. And you have to let. But that's like your love language, in a way. And so they've kind of taken that on, and I've had to allow for it. You know, if I need something or something's broke at the house, or I'm like, can you help me with this? Or.
- [90:37]
A
Yeah.
- [90:38]
C
And they're so happy to do that. To do it. And their wives have been so supportive, and that's awesome. Yeah. Really nice.
- [90:45]
B
So Speaking of wives, I think you've had some other wives reach out to you that have lost their. Their spouses and stuff. What did that mean to you?
- [90:51]
A
You.
- [90:52]
C
Everything. You know, and a lot of them had reached out to. To an officer or something and said, you know, when she's ready, I want to talk to her. And I have three women. Well, now four, who. They say words, and you're like, yes, yes. Yeah, exactly. And you just feel so understood. And a few of them reached out after the podcast, and they're like, finally. You, like, said all the words.
- [91:19]
B
Words that you said. Yeah.
- [91:21]
C
You know, and it's. It's. It's no one's fault. And we all say we're in this club that no one wants to be a part of, but once you are, you are. And the sooner you surround yourself, and it's the same for you all. Anybody who's gone through a trauma, if you get around people that have experienced the same thing and you just feel understood, you don't feel crazy, because grief is. Grief is a nutty. Nutty.
- [91:42]
A
Yeah.
- [91:43]
C
Emotion that elicits. It's a lot of emotions, and it's terrifying, and it's. It's not. It can't be cured. There's no answer. There's no. And I'm very much a. Okay, this happened. How are we going to fix it?
- [91:57]
A
Yeah.
- [91:58]
C
How do we move past it? What do we do? And there's nothing. Nothing fills the void. Nothing. And you start to feel like, okay, like, I didn't cry as much today. Like, I had an okay day. And then somewhere out of nowhere, it hits you like a ton of bricks. So I've just decided to kind of embrace the suck, you know, move through it the best I can and not necessarily drink. And everybody wants to go, why don't you go to a doctor and get on antidepressants? I'm like, what? It's not what it is. There's no pill for grief.
- [92:30]
A
Yeah.
- [92:31]
C
You just have to feel it and move through it and put your feet on the floor every day and try to live the life that you're meant to live.
- [92:38]
B
And that. Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's a definitely thing that you're not just not saying you're. You're living in. I know. Just me and you talking. You're like, there's some days where I'm just. You know what I told you about.
- [92:51]
C
Trying to waterboard myself. Right. It doesn't work.
- [92:54]
B
It doesn't work that way.
- [92:55]
C
Yeah. Plus, I didn't want to be found in the shower on the floor.
- [92:59]
B
Yeah, that's not a good look.
- [93:01]
C
Now I'm like, who's gonna show up?
- [93:02]
B
So has there been anything that a spouse reached out to you and said and you didn't maybe necessarily understood until time? You're like, oh, now I, now I know what, what she means, or anything like that?
- [93:16]
C
Well, the main thing, the best thing someone could have told me, and they were all around the 9, 10, 11, 12 year mark, and they said it never gets easier. And as hard as that was to hear, because a lot of people say you just got to get through the first year and you'll be okay, you know, and then that first year comes around and year two is even harder. Harder. And things get real quiet. You know, everyone's around you in the beginning, things get real quiet. And then you come out of fight or flight. Yeah, you're no longer numb. Now you feel. And it's like, this can't be my life. Like, he's really never coming home. And so for someone to have told me that, as cruel as it sounded, I am so grateful for that. And they kept telling me I was gonna make it. And I'm like, you don't understand. I'm not gonna make it. I can't do this. I just can't do it. There's no way I'm good. I lived a life. I'm fine. Like, everyone's good. I, I'm, I'm, I'm. I could check out. I wasn't suicidal. It sounds very strong. It's just that living seemed so hard.
- [94:21]
B
Side of that.
- [94:22]
C
Yeah, you're just like dragging to like it. Just to get up and make a cup of coffee and try to get. Go for a walk and answer the phone. It was just everything was so hard. And for them to continually say, like, you're gonna make it. You're gonna make it. And everyone says, oh, you're so strong. You're so strong. And it's like, is that really what it is? Or you just don't have a choice or you're making a choice. I had the days in bed all day. Horrible. That is so not my, not my thing. And I realized that it was easier to push through with the 2,000 pound weight on my back than to, than to stay in bed and cry. And so them telling me that I. And now feeling that. And now I think you guys are honoring Cooper Dawson. Yes, this and wow, that one hurts too. That's a tough one. But thinking of Aubrey because he, he was killed in November, a year after George. And so, yeah, just the thought of having to go back a year. I just want to give her my year, you know, I. I want to give her. I just want to pull her ahead and let her know she's going to make it, but she's got to go through it, and it sucks. And I haven't had the privilege and honor of meeting her yet. I hope I do and I hope I can. I'm probably not ready because these gals that helped me were so far ahead, but I want to so badly.
- [95:47]
B
Yeah, that was. That was one of my questions. I was thinking, have you had the opportunity to be able to reach out to another spouse or anything? Are you at that point of.
- [95:58]
C
So I. I did. A wonderful man, Tim Cresta. A lot of people know him. He's on honor guard and does a lot of the. He runs the Texas Peace Officer Memorial. He's done a lot of line of duty notifications and funerals. And George worked with him and he connected me with. With a wife of an officer who was killed. Very small town. I always forget the name. I don't want to say it wrong. Where there was just six deputies.
- [96:21]
A
Oh, wow.
- [96:22]
C
And, and, and two of them were killed. And coincidentally, ironically, whatever George had done his funeral and he connected us. And, and she lives out by me and she's a beautiful human. And so I don't know know she's further along than I am. And he connected us just because he thought our personalities would. Would jive.
- [96:44]
A
Yeah.
- [96:44]
C
But the work that I'm doing has helped her and it's allowed her to get out of a space of anger and she's been able to now reach out to some people who she hasn't spoken to. And so her and I meet for coffee and we. We're going to go to the Peace Officer Memorial together. She hasn't been so. And that's. There's a perfect example of how differently people handle it. And some people just push it down, don't want to talk about it, think about it. And so I've opened up a space, I think, I hope for her to be able to talk about it. And. And it's okay to honor it. And let's go to the. Let's go to the wall together.
- [97:21]
A
Yeah.
- [97:22]
C
Because again, it's those things where you don't know how you're going to feel and you don't want to rehash it and bring up any feelings. But then there's a level of just coming from a place of love for Them and, And honoring them. And so we're going to do that together. So she's further along than me. I think we're helping each other in different ways, for sure. I, I would do anything. I, I don't know. I wouldn't want to cause any more. Like, by sitting in front of her and crying, like, do I really. Like, does that help her?
- [97:52]
B
Right.
- [97:52]
C
I will try to be, Be as strong and give the same advice that I got that I felt that was helpful to me, if she's open to it. And it's so, so very fresh for her and knowing that it's literally the same amount of time as I did all this with TTPOA last year, I knew that all the things TTPOA was doing for me, George would love. So it was easy to accept it, but it was hard to get up and get dressed and go and meet people and talk to people and be around and be a representative of him. So, you know, if, if, if she was open to that, I would certainly.
- [98:30]
B
I think that the, the irony is just eerie.
- [98:33]
C
Yeah.
- [98:34]
B
Because when you, When I met you at the range today, I was like, you know, I met. This is when I met you last. Last year at the shoot, the memorial shoot. And then we're having it again, and we're having it for another officer. And, you know, I knew Dawson. He was on our team. Yeah, he was on our team. And then when he left, he left our department. He went to Greenville.
- [98:57]
C
Sorry.
- [98:57]
B
And then. So, yeah, I knew him. And so that was. And then his wife's there or his, you know, we're doing this for him. And it was just. And then you're there. And I was like, this is just so eerie that this is a repeat. And, yeah, like you said, in November and stuff. And so she came out this year to basic squad the first week in March.
- [99:19]
C
Oh, nice.
- [99:20]
B
And so at the very end, we honored him. We did four, Four stops throughout that March. And so his team. So his team. And then the chief came out for that department. And then Aubrey was out there, and she spoke last to the group while they're still holding these. I mean, one of the. One of the litters was like £270, and they're still holding it with the hammer and all these. That kind of stuff while, While she's speaking. And, man, she was a rock star out there. What she said and how she was able to. And once again, now you're there in this SWAT school and you're looking at the wife who just lost her husband and you're like, this is why we're doing this. This is what we're training for. So she's a rock star in that and how she's just, I mean, she's spoken at different things and, and very strong woman. Reminds me a lot of you. You. And I'm looking, I'm like, man. And you know, her. Her father in law or her dad. I'm sorry, her dad is an officer with us and been with our department for years and years and years, like 30 plus years. So there's a lot of like connections in that. Yeah.
- [100:26]
C
So she grew up and a husband that way. Yeah.
- [100:29]
B
So she grew up in that environment of her dad being a cop and stuff. So like I said, everybody's journey is the same, but yet, you know, younger kids, young kids and stuff like that.
- [100:40]
C
So it's a lot, you know, and you asked about, you know, different people and things that they'd want and, you know, a lot of people were like, kim, why are you going to these things? You could say no. And, you know, so what would you have me say no to? Which thing? That they're honoring my husband and sit home and do what? You know, and so not everybody could get up and speak, but obviously for Aubrey, this is a very healing thing for her too. And to be able to speak about again, the love of her life, her husband. Of course, she's. She, she wants to. Some people maybe wouldn't want to do that. That's again, just knowing who the spouse is and what they would want and that there's no right or wrong way to do it. And there are some things where maybe it's a little bit much. And, you know, my heart is with her because she's got the Peace Officer memorial coming up. I believe it's this weekend. Is it this weekend?
- [101:36]
B
Yeah, I think it's.
- [101:37]
C
Yeah, I'm glad I won't ever have to do that again. But it is beautiful. And we're in this world and community where our husbands are honored this way. And the gratitude. I'm sure she feels the same. And you know, not everybody's husbands die in the line of duty or even police officers would even get any kind of recognition this way. And it's well deserved. And this is a, a really difficult job with obstacles and, and challenges to overcome and, and it's well deserved, I believe, to be honored in this way. So, yeah, my heart does go out to her for sure.
- [102:17]
B
So you have a foundation that you started and that was based on his just passion and drive for training And I think that's what I love about it is that, that you knew George so well, that you knew that this was super easy, like this was his thing. Like it wasn't going to be, you know, some other deal that someone else, music or whatever. It was this right here. And I think you, you, you've knocked it out of the park with that. And I think there's going to be so many things that this organization is going to do that you don't even know yet that today I was talking when, when you were talking with Anna, when someone else was talking with you and she turned around, she goes, this woman is a amazing. She's going to do so many big things.
- [103:01]
C
Yeah.
- [103:02]
B
And stuff is so it. I'm excited and I'm excited to partner with some things that, that we have with the training deal, like I said. So tell us about the, the foundation so that way people understand what we're referring to.
- [103:16]
C
I'd love to. We started it fairly quickly and a lot of it came from, you know, there's so many organizations out there for fallen officers, which is so beautiful. And I was so grateful for that too. But I couldn't help but just be super hyper focused on the officers who are still going back to work after something like this happens. It's just, okay, we're back at it. And you know, and there's shirts and hats and mourning bands and I mean coins, you know, and everybody wants to do something. And there was a point where I was talking with, with his, his best friend from patrol and you know, we were like, God, all he'd want, want all he'd want. He doesn't need any of this. He just sign up for a training. Yeah, go to the range, you know, work out, take care of each other. Be better than you were yesterday. And that's how you honor George. And it was sort of a way for me to kind of gain a little bit of control and again, have some agency over what was going on. And I thought, you know what? Let's us do it. And so we started the George Pastor foundation. And it was based on three pillars initially. One, of course, was training. And I had really wanted to get a training facility built. It was shocking to me that APD and Austin didn't have like a big, beautiful training facility. And then I've learned about red tape, bureaucracy, government, all the things that go on. I don't have many years left on this earth. I don't think I have enough years left on this earth to fight that fight and try to get a facility built. And someone looked at me and said, do you want to be a force or a facility? And I said, well, duh, I want to be a force. And so, yeah, to think about raising $80 million to open a facility as opposed to what we could do with even a million dollars to get people trained up and take action right away sounded more appealing to me. It's still a dream. It'd be great to get something built. But so it was. So what we do with the foundation in terms of that pillar is we put on training classes. So I've got a guy with Cornerstone Performance that puts on week we Staccato has been a very generous. George had done like a little campaign, Instagram campaign thing for, for Staccato before he was killed. And they have been so wonderful and, and called me in and have been super supportive of the foundation and of me and have sort of just taken me in as family, which I've been. Again, I know I've said grateful so many times during this, but it really is truly how I feel. And they, they give us range space and then we just provide pistol, pistol, rifle, low light classes and then we have a teacher, so we just pay for the class. And then law enforcement can come for free. So we've probably got over 150, 160, maybe even 170 guys. It was APD and now we've had Pflugerville, Leander, Cedar Park, Round Rock.
- [105:56]
B
Okay.
- [105:57]
C
Georgetown, Travis Lake, Travis County. We've had even Hays County. We've had all kinds of stuff. So it's been really nice to see all the agencies taking advantage of these classes. And they're one day classes, so. So I find that those are the easiest for the guys to get the time off or use on their day off and just get some pistol training in. And then we provide grants and we'll pay for them to go to training. So we sponsored a couple of guys in the advanced sniper course TTPA offered with Dan and Matt and Mike. And it was a couple of the Round Rock spot guys that was really fun to do. We're sending some guys out to sniper craft from apd. We've given and we've provided grants for guys. Why are you laughing?
- [106:38]
B
Because I like what you said the day when you were referring to someone being told no for training.
- [106:44]
C
And then you told them no.
- [106:46]
B
Yeah. And then what did you say?
- [106:47]
C
Them. I'll send you. We'll pay for everything.
- [106:50]
B
I love that.
- [106:51]
C
Oh God. I was like. Because usually we'll limit it per officer. I'm like, what do you need? I mean, we got them plane tickets, lodging. We're sending them out there, paying for. For their tuition. Yeah, don't even.
- [107:02]
B
And yeah, I love that.
- [107:03]
C
Oh yeah, like you're not going. Cause they said no, there's no way. We got you. And the same attitude George would have. It's easy. He speaks through me. So when I'm foul, I blame it on him.
- [107:13]
B
I love it.
- [107:14]
C
And so we've been able to. To do a lot of things, send some guys to different trainings. And so that's that component of it. And on the website it shows classes that we're offering free to law enforcement. And then it shows there's a grant application that you can do as well. And I know that with you, we're starting to put some of the TTPA classes and we will, we will pay up to a certain amount for them to go to those. So we don't want funding to be a factor. So I'll just continue raising money for that. And then we just brought on a grant writer. So that's a whole different world. I'm learning about wowza. But we're going to try to see what kind of money is out there to get so that we can just keep, you know, taking that obstacle away. There are other obstacles. Those training and finding that out.
- [107:58]
B
What's the, what's the website?
- [108:00]
C
Jpastorfoundation.com okay.
- [108:03]
B
So they could go in there and then research that. So if someone. So do they have to be a Texas cop or could they be anywhere else that. That wants to apply for the grants and things like that.
- [108:12]
C
One of my instructors actually is doing something out in Alabama for a department that literally, I think they have negative dollars for training and they. So he's. He's out there for like a. To teach something. So we're paying for him to stay an extra day and teach a bunch of officers for free. And so no, it's more the people that want it. I don't want funding to be an issue. We were originally trying to target those officers, patrol officers, five years and under, and trying to give them that bug of training and that what that feels like. I've been able to attend a lot of the trainings that we've been a part of or sponsored people in. And the one we just were at in Fort Worth with the Community first project, which I'm so proud to be working with, I literally watched them on range Day, like stand straighter and prouder and taller. I literally watched Their confidence boost for that just during a training and that was so gratifying. But yeah, they can go onto the website for that. We've also done stuff with Pflugerville isd. We. We got them some drones and we're putting guys through drone training.
- [109:15]
A
Okay.
- [109:16]
C
Just sort of feeling like canine drone and sniper gives you a lot of bang for buck in a sense.
- [109:22]
A
Yeah.
- [109:22]
C
Kind of of a maybe. I don't know, just bang for your buck. But trying to figure out where we fit in and the best place we can help. And then we're doing a little. A little bit really trying. It's a harder pillar with the wellness, the mental and physical wellness portion of it and working with some organizations hopefully. Yeah.
- [109:40]
B
I got a feeling you'll get American.
- [109:42]
C
Warrior and all that and getting these guys the help.
- [109:45]
B
You don't take. No. So you'll.
- [109:46]
C
No, I don't.
- [109:47]
B
You'll figure this one.
- [109:48]
C
I don't, I don't. I don't. And I keep saying people have to say yes to me. I don't know how long it's going to last, but I'm milking it for everything that it's worth. But so that's where we're at right now. We've done a lot of great things. We've got a lot of good things in the mix. And working with Community first has been such a blessing. They offer a 40 hour. I think we talked about it. Right. We. 40 hour, no cost, critical incident training that they're going around teaching. And I just feel like all the people who like to train are easy.
- [110:18]
A
Yeah.
- [110:19]
C
I'm trying to also target those younger guys.
- [110:22]
A
Yeah.
- [110:23]
C
I want them to feel how it feels to get better and more proficient at their skill set. Instead of being afraid to go to a SWAT training because they're going to feel dumb or be afraid of what they don't know or.
- [110:35]
A
Yeah.
- [110:36]
C
Or look bad. So I in fact have been signing up for trainings that I don't want to get up early for and go do. Yeah. I've done quite a few and they're really hard, very challenging and figure I gotta put my money where my mouth is. Right. Yeah. And shooting's been very healing for.
- [110:51]
B
I will definitely. I've seen a. I've seen a culture shift in this organization. When I was first in it, it was all swat. And then the longer we've been doing things more like patrol, different specialized unit. And now there's classes that. There's some classes that have more patrol or other specialized units than actually Switching swat, which is great guys and stuff. I mean, the, the hostage rescue school, it's not just all SWAT guys. There's patrol guys that come in there. There's, there's, I mean, basic SWAT every year. There's guys that just want to get better, that come to that school, don't.
- [111:29]
C
Necessarily want to do swat.
- [111:31]
B
Yeah. Or they're trying to get on swat, but they're like, okay, if I go through this, this helps. Yeah. So there's a, there's a lot of like, but they just want to get, get better and then always tell them, hey, if you're out here, here, go to, go to advanced. What, like the next step and things like that. So I do do appreciate the guys that can go.
- [111:49]
C
Yeah. And George would take any training and sometimes his supervisor would say, this isn't even something you want to do. He's like, who cares?
- [111:55]
A
Yeah.
- [111:56]
C
You get pieces of stuff from everything. You meet people and makes you think outside the box. And I think that it transfers into even just a traffic stop. Just because you're learning hostage rescue and you never go on a hostage rescue call doesn't mean there isn't something to be learned, whether it be working under stress or I don't know, I don't know what you guys do, but you know that it's all got to somehow transfer over or build some confidence.
- [112:23]
B
Well, like I told you, I said I think this is a perfect marriage with ttpoa, and I do, too. Your foundation and the fact of, and I don't say this to. It's just more of like, people know this opportunity you have. Like I said, hey, I set you up on. You get all the emails of all the classes. And when we do the hostage rescue school in my region, you get two free spots. There's no money that you have to come out of your organization. You just tell me who they are, and then we'll sign them up and go from there and then some other. In my region, any cadre class you want to send people to, you let me know and we'll do that. It's, it's an easy, it's easy. Like, money's not easy.
- [113:00]
C
It's amazing.
- [113:01]
B
So, but, but I say that because your energy level is matching what I like. So it's not like you're like, whatever, like you're, you're putting all the energy out there. You're putting all that out there.
- [113:13]
C
I mean, I, to the point where I've almost kind of not disassociated, but I, I, I'm feeling like I have less and less in common woman with the real world. It's weird. It's. And I get all the stories and all these organizations that I'm working with. When. When someone's running an organization like American Warrior or all these. It's because they've been through some.
- [113:36]
A
Yeah.
- [113:37]
C
And then I. I get they. I feel honored to hear their stories. And whether you're talking about, like, the suicide rate and mental wellness or, you know, a lack of training and all the. All of these things that make it so difficult, I do think that. I don't know, I. I look at regular people that are just, like, driving through McDonald's, I'm like, you have no idea, like, what's going on. You know, the security and the safety in which you just function. Especially being around combat veterans and hearing their stories and what they were doing for us while we were.
- [114:13]
A
Yeah.
- [114:13]
B
Drinking your latte.
- [114:14]
C
And.
- [114:15]
A
Yeah.
- [114:15]
C
You know, a really hard thing for me and still really hard. And I get choked up every time I think about that. You know, I was peacefully sleeping while George was in there doing what he was doing, taking his last breath. You know, we're all asleep at night. And that's when all the crazy stuff you guys do and serving warrants and getting bad guys off the street and saving people and. And, you know, you guys will always, to me, be heroes, all of you. And I know that that's where Humble Warrior comes from. That's where the Humble Warrior Games comes from, is that. I know that it's. It's a level of humility, and you're humble, and it's just your job to you, but to people like me, it's not just your job. And so now I get a little bit like, don't you dare talk about these people. You know, I'll fight you in the street. And so now it's kind of where I really feel like I need to be. And I. I feel like I. I've earned the right to speak on it.
- [115:08]
B
You definitely did.
- [115:09]
C
And George walk the talk. Talk the walk. Walk the walk, whatever that thing is. I mess up every saying there is to mess up, but he lived that. And so there's nothing that I'm doing or saying that isn't authentic to him and who he was and what was important to him. And so this is what I'm gonna. This is the hill I'm gonna die on to get. To get you guys all the things you need and deserve. And training should never be halted. Denied. It should be a part of Your everyday.
- [115:37]
B
Yeah. I wish that was the mindset of a lot of administrators because it says.
- [115:42]
C
We give a shit about. About you. And I do care. I. I genuinely care. And I want to make sure that regardless of what's going on in departments and the lack of leadership and all of those things that we can still try to help provide.
- [115:56]
A
Yeah.
- [115:57]
C
At least the funding and the opportunities for. For people who want to train. To train.
- [116:01]
B
Well, you're. You're definitely kicking some doors down for doing it.
- [116:05]
C
I'm trying. Trying.
- [116:07]
B
I like that you have anything else that we didn't discuss that you were like, man, I really got to get this out.
- [116:15]
C
There's so much I. I think if I could wrap it all up, you know, because I always try to do everything with the intention of it being helpful to other people.
- [116:23]
A
Yeah.
- [116:24]
C
It's not about me. I'd rather not be sitting here on a microphone. I mean, it's terrible listening to yourself. I don't even listen to these things when they're done. But, you know, especially as it relates to. To. To couples and wives and spouses. Because I feel like that was a little bit heavier of a topic this time, not so much the incident and what happened, you know, that you learn to communicate, not be afraid to have this conversation.
- [116:49]
A
Yeah.
- [116:49]
C
Here's what I think I would want and just to. Just to talk about what that would look like if something happened. Do you have a support officer who would. Who would notify you or you know, maybe creating those bonds with each other and trying to make time and it's hard on a SWAT team to find time outside of work to, to get together and those relationships. But I would say, you know, for, for anybody listening that is a police officer to please get involved with the foundation, look at the things that we have to offer, take advantage. I know a lot of people feel weird. There's this weirdness too about taking money from a foundation. But I'm out there raising it from people who want to help that know and have identified one of the issues being a lack of training. So it's a win. Win. So don't be afraid. Afraid to utilize the resources that we have. It's. It's okay to not be okay. Right. To try to get help as it relates to. To your mental wellness. And I hope that we'll get a huge. The Humble Warrior Games last year in November was. Was a huge success out of. I don't even know how we threw it together. So we expect it to be even bigger. It's. And when is that presented by Staccato. And we had born Primitive 511. All those guys helping out. It's Sunday, November 9th, at Reveille Peak Ranch. You can come out there and not spend a dime. You can come out there and run the 5k. You can do the 5k and the team obstacle course. If you don't want APD SWAT to win it again this year, you can put a team of four together and come out there and challenge them. We had a great turnout. We had Honor Guard there presenting colors. And George was killed actually on Veterans Day, which was so fitting because he was such a patriot. And so, yeah, we'll do that Humble Warrior Games every year. And then we're always raffling something off. We're raffling off a Staccato pistol right now through the. Through the end of May. And so you can buy a raffle ticket. We've got great merch. There's lots of ways you can help and support, but mostly for law enforcement to know that we're out there as a resource to them to please use it. George would be so happy to know more and more training, especially in his name and. And in honor of his memory. So good.
- [118:52]
B
Well, I think you are doing an outstanding job of continuing his memory and just his legacy.
- [118:59]
C
Thank you.
- [118:59]
B
And in law enforcement and just who he was. I've never met him, but just listening to you, I feel like I have met him and I understand who he is because that's who kind of you are as well. So that's. It's a neat. It's an interesting perspective for me to hear all this and then meet you and. And see him living through you. But also you being you. You're very authentic and I appreciate that.
- [119:27]
C
Thank you. Yeah, he was one of a kind. There. There is no doubt there. But thank you. And thanks for all the time you put in. In your understanding and advice and making me laugh. This is probably the least I've cried on a podcast. So I'm getting. I don't want to say it's. It's better, but that's to. To the point of talking about things. I think. You know, I'm not in talk therapy. It's not my thing. Yeah, I'd rather do something like this or go. Go shoot or something, you know, but this is therapeutic. So allowing me to talk about it is so helpful. So thank you.
- [119:58]
B
Well, you. You are always welcome in anything we do. You can come back every year. We don't care.
- [120:05]
C
I love it. I feel so good when I'm around these people.
- [120:07]
A
Yeah.
- [120:08]
C
I go home and then I cry. But when I'm around everybody, I have a good time.
- [120:11]
B
Well, we're. Yeah, we're.
- [120:13]
A
We're.
- [120:13]
B
We're a little strange. We're a little different.
- [120:15]
C
I love it. I love it. You put me in a thing of, like, lawyers and doctors. I would die. These are my people. Yeah, you guys are crazy, but I love it.
- [120:24]
A
Yeah.
- [120:24]
B
Yeah, we definitely are.
- [120:26]
C
So I must be crazy, too.
- [120:28]
B
Probably a little bit. Probably a little bit.
- [120:30]
C
Yeah, we're a little bit crazy.
- [120:31]
B
That's not a bad thing. That's not a bad thing. So anything else, Matt?
- [120:35]
D
Yeah, we'll say, first of all, thank you for doing this, because I know it's not easy and having to relive the. That over, you know, how many times you've had to do this. Hope today was a little bit easier than some. It was also, you know, having done this job and knowing people and Brandon know we've all done it, like, it takes courage to go do that. It's not that you're crazy and that you're.
- [120:58]
A
You're.
- [120:58]
D
You're out to settle those score. Yeah, you. It takes courage to do what George did, what officers do. And because we, We. We know the incident because things did not go the right way as we wanted it to. Officers around this country do incidents like this every day. And because nothing goes bad, you don't really know about it. And so I think what happens is, is that when things don't go the way we want them to, we take a look back and go, what did they do wrong? What? He didn't do anything wrong. He was doing everything right.
- [121:34]
B
Right.
- [121:34]
D
And yet it's still.
- [121:36]
B
There was a.
- [121:37]
D
You know, he paid the ultimate price. And so I think it's. I think policing in general have a tendency to say, well, what went wrong? What did they. What could they do better? I challenge you to come up with a better way of doing that, because having talked to some of the guys that were there and listened and all this, and having my perspective of what I've done, like, he did it the right way, and it's still, obviously didn't go the way he wanted it to do, but he was doing, like you have so pointed out so well. He was doing what he loved, what he felt like he was there to do, and it took great courage to do what he did. And you're doing the same thing now. It takes great courage to come and do that. So thank you. Because it's not easy to do what he did. It's not easy doing what you're doing. And I hope people that hear this understand that that is. That is the way you're supposed to do it, if that makes sense.
- [122:23]
B
So thank you very much.
- [122:24]
C
I love that perspective. Thank you for that. Because it is hard to think like, you know, all that training, what did he do? What went wrong? And that's why I always like to those guys the credit they deserve for a very well executed operation, if you will. Or, Or. But it just doesn't feel that way. Like that happens.
- [122:43]
D
These incidents. There's not a lot of things going in our favor.
- [122:47]
A
Yeah.
- [122:48]
C
You know, especially in that one.
- [122:49]
D
Right. Yeah. And, you know, and yes, absolutely. And to. To go in there and to do what they did. You're fighting the odds already. And so. But yet they still go. And this goes on many times a day, every day in this country, you know, around the world. But we know here in America this kind of thing happens. And when things don't go bad, nobody knows about it.
- [123:09]
C
Yeah.
- [123:10]
D
It's when they do go bad, we. We highlight it and we go, well, what happened? What went wrong? Nothing went wrong. Other than somebody that was really, really bad made a decision to do that today. And so. But no, thank you. I know it's not. I can't imagine how hard it is, but thank you.
- [123:25]
C
Thank you for that. I appreciate it. That's a great perspective.
- [123:29]
B
Yeah. I. I'll look at it and. And go like, what you're doing to me is even harder.
- [123:34]
C
Like sometimes I'm like, what in the world am I doing to myself? But. But I just. I feel so called to it. I just know this is what I'm supposed to be doing.
- [123:44]
A
Yeah.
- [123:45]
B
And I think that's where.
- [123:46]
A
What.
- [123:47]
B
Because I have a hard time. It's not about me. Like, the whole warrior hero. Those words are kind of like triggers for me. And the fact of this is just fun stuff that I feel like this is. I don't know anything else to do. This is my. This is what God designed me to do. So for me, like, God didn't design you to do this, but he did.
- [124:10]
C
Yeah.
- [124:10]
B
You just didn't know it.
- [124:11]
C
Yeah.
- [124:11]
B
Because there was no training that I didn't go the, you know, let me lose my husband in line of duty, a catch of me and all that. So it's a very. Like you're just being. You're in this tornado and you're just in it and going, okay, what do I hold on to? And then the tornado throws you down. You're like, oh, this is. Now I'm going to pick all these pieces up. So.
- [124:37]
C
Yeah. And the person who got you out of the tornado or when you were smiling. Yeah. So it's interesting. Oxymoron again. To be in the. The most difficult time of my life and knowing the person who could help me.
- [124:50]
A
Yeah.
- [124:51]
C
You know, is gone. And so I've kind of. Kind of had to figure it out. But. But you're right, there is no training for this. And. But I do feel like this is what I'm supposed to be doing, so I'm going to keep at it.
- [125:00]
A
Yeah.
- [125:01]
B
It was after I listened to the first podcast that you did. I sent it out to my wife and I sent it out to some other wives that I know that I should respect their opinion just because I have my perspective on them of what I would. The officer side of it and then there's the spouse side of it. And it was fascinating to hear their perspective of what you were going through. Things that I didn't think about or things that I didn't, you know, realize and stuff. So I wanted that. But it was, it was. It's been interesting conversations that we've had at my house and we've talked about this.
- [125:36]
A
I'm.
- [125:37]
B
I mean, I'm always want to party. I could tell you music that, I mean, so there's. There's not. There's never been a. Oh, we're not going to talk about this subject or anything. So that's been a very open for our whole marriage. But was. What was. What was interesting is that my wife. 27 years of doing this job, 20 on SWAT. So.
- [125:55]
C
Oh, boy.
- [125:56]
B
Whatever it's called out, she can sleep on it. But we got called out on Easter in the evening. Well, she's listening to your podcast.
- [126:02]
C
Oh, boy.
- [126:04]
B
Way different perspective now.
- [126:05]
C
Sorry.
- [126:05]
B
No, it's not. I mean, it was just. I didn't expect that. She didn't expect that. So when I got home, home, when I text her, it's like, hey, it's all done. We'll be wrapping up in a little bit and stuff. She's like, oh, good. And so I got home, she's like, I've been awake the whole time. Like, this has never happened to me. And she goes, I kept thinking about listening to Kim's podcast. She sleeps with like a sound machine on. She said, I didn't turn it on because what if I get knocked on the door and I don't hear this and. And I'm like, I've never heard that. From her before and stuff. So. And it's not a knock. It's just there was things that, that, that have been brought up that just, you know, that you don't think about sometimes or it's. It's fresh right now because it's fresh in her mind even. Me too. I look at some stuff a little differently because of this. The freshness of me and you talking and, and, and learning about your story and stuff. And it is different than going on patrol. I mean, this is. Yeah, this is a swat. This is a pure SWAT operation that, that he lost his life on. So I think that's where this, it hits even harder for, for guys like us.
- [127:05]
A
Us.
- [127:05]
C
Yeah. I'm so sorry. I didn't.
- [127:07]
B
No, no, no, it's not. No, don't feel bad at all. It's, it's. That's, that's. It's a learning. Yeah, it's the reality of it.
- [127:13]
C
I mean, you know what I'm really hoping more so from that is that departments take a look at their policies towards it and how they handle it and how would they handle it? Because it happens so infrequently. It's not something they become accustomed to. But just with a very three hour maybe leadership meeting on, you know, there's protocol out there. Like, you know.
- [127:32]
B
Well, like Dallas, y', all, what had five at one time in the Dallas. Five. Or was it four or.
- [127:37]
D
Well, it was four of ours and then the one.
- [127:40]
B
Yeah. So I mean, you look at a department having four, right Then I mean, that's chaos.
- [127:44]
C
I mean, and, and you know, there is protocol already. The International association of Police Chiefs has a four page protocol that I printed and gave out to some people that literally comes from peer support and therapists and things saying like, like how the best way is to handle this. And so it's out there. It's just nobody wants to talk about it. But a three hour class maybe and then have access to information that they need, where do they live and who's going and all those things. So the intention of that podcast is to, to bring awareness to a procedure that maybe needs to be talked about every six months and just have a protocol or procedure for it.
- [128:23]
A
Yeah.
- [128:23]
C
And that we just, just don't. You know, here I'm going to mess up a saying. Wipe it and swipe it under the rug. What the hell is it? Sweep it.
- [128:32]
B
Sweep it on the rug.
- [128:33]
C
That one.
- [128:33]
B
Sure.
- [128:34]
C
Every single saying, I will mess up. Don't do that. Whatever he said. They talk about it and then they have because nobody wants to make that knock, nobody wants to make that notification. But if you have just a little information behind it for all that, you know, it's the same as training for anything. Right? So, yeah. So the intention behind it is that leadership and there are some departments that have reached out and said, you know, we never thought about it, we don't have any kind of protocol in place, but we're going to talk about it, just put something in place just so that we can be as helpful as possible.
- [129:04]
B
Well, you're, you're, you're getting the word out and I look forward to seeing your journey this time next year of what you experienced and just doors that you've kicked out and things that you've discovered that you don't even know right now, now that you don't know yet. So I'm excited to, for your future of what you have working.
- [129:22]
C
Thank you.
- [129:23]
B
You're going to do some amazing things.
- [129:26]
C
Well, I appreciate the partnership and the support from ttpoa. They were so good to me last year and have continued to be. So I'm glad to be a year ahead for sure, but glad that we have this partnership and I, and that I have you guys so grateful for it. So thank you for that.
- [129:44]
B
Well, thank you for coming on. It's been an honor getting to get to know you and I look to forward, forward to future things to keep me laughing. Yeah, there you go. All right, folks. Well, I, I, this was an honor. This was something I was excited to do, even though it's a horrible topic, but I think it needs to be talked about. So thank you for again. So. All right, boys and girls, thanks for listening to us. This was the season one or season five, so. All right, y' all go out there and keep training hard.
- [130:11]
A
All right?
- [130:12]
B
See y' all.