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Foreign.
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To the TTPOA podcast, a podcast for
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SWAT officers, military and all first responders. We'll be talking training, tactics and leadership with the best subject matter experts around.
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A
All right, folks, welcome back to another edition of the TTP Way podcast. Welcome to the Backyard Honky Tonk. Matt Smith, how are you doing today, man?
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B
Well, sir, how about yourself?
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A
Good. I got to clarify which Matt I'm talking about right now. So it's been a while since we've done some podcasts and from Yalls point of view, but from ours it's not. Feels like the conference is just a few weeks ago and we did a lot back then. So now we're back in the mothership of the Backyard Honky Tonk. So a nice beautiful Sunday evening. So enjoying join your weekend?
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B
Yes, sir.
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A
All right, so this handsome man we have across from us on my couch is no other than the notorious Matt Pranker. Man, how you doing?
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C
I'm good.
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A
Welcome back to Texas.
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C
Good to be here.
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A
Came back and man, you got your Texas road show on the road right now.
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C
Yep, yep, I'll be here for. Already been here for a week and another couple of weeks of training and classes.
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B
Glad to have you.
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C
Stack them all up.
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A
So you got some red ass arms.
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C
Yeah, I keep coming in June. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.
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A
The very first time you came was in August.
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B
Man, that's hot.
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A
Yeah, you were miserable.
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C
One of these times I'm going to figure out when it' it's cooler.
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B
March and April. Everything else is wet and cold or hot. That's pretty much it for us. Yeah, March and April.
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A
That's funny. Yeah, that first class we had, we shot a rifle class and man, it was so miserable. Hot.
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B
Yeah.
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A
We'd come back here, jump in the pool. He was burnt Ash Ray, he's like, man, I feel like I'm training on the sun. Like. Yeah, you kind of are in August.
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B
Humidity is brutal. Yeah.
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A
Yeah. So. Well, you had a good week last week though. You were an indoor 70 something degree range.
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C
It was perfect over at Fort Worth with Dallas. So we got to train inside for night vision. It was. Got here the first day, it was real rainy and looked the forecast like it was going to be rainy for four days. Like, oh man.
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A
Yeah.
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C
And yeah, Fort Worth. Chansey hooked it up.
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B
Yep.
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C
Let us into the range at night. Good thing it was a night. Yeah. Night class, they were, they were booked but we, we were able to sneak in there and get it all done. It was good.
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A
Yeah, he's Good man. In the fact that he's one one guys to train one guys to get better, and he'll do anything he can. And he's also the way he. So look at y'. All. Dallas helping or fourth helping? Dallas guys?
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B
Yeah. Yeah. Well. And we had already reached out to them and had a couple of them in the class with some Irving guys, you know, to come in, and we didn't know we were going to end up needing that, but it worked out that, you know, that's in Fort Worth. Guys in there. But we know we've had you guys out there. Y' all had us just.
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A
Oh, yeah.
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B
Paying it forward. Because not everybody has the ability to bring in somebody like him, you know, so we did that. And obviously we. You always. Never going to never have everybody in town. We had guys already going on vacations and stuff, so we had some spots. Yeah. So we already had him coming in. So we threw those guys in there, and it was great. And, you know, I knew most of the guys anyway, so it was really cool. We had the two Fort Worth and two Irving guys with my rotation, and it was. It was great. We had a good time with them.
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A
Well, good man. Well, let's talk about that class, because you're going to be tomorrow and Tuesday, you're going to be working with our team on night vision and stuff. So let's kind of get into that, and then we'll just see where it goes from there. So when I talk to you about coming and doing a night vision class, you said how you already working with Dallas and stuff like that. So tell me kind of what your philosophy is as far as teaching Ellie with the night vision, that capability and what that looks like, because I think it's. We talked about this a little different than kind of military.
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C
Sometimes it is. And I think, for me, I try to focus the training on. On the application, the shooting piece of it. You know, I'm not. Don't come in and try to. I'm not the guy to go to that. Hey, how like, you want to build a set of nods or understand exactly how it works. I want to. Want to focus on, you know, the application of skill with these things and how it enhances us on the shooting side. And then also from a training standpoint, training with them, it just. It's, you know, training at night, during the day. I believe the shooting piece of it is the same. It's just how we pay attention to the mistakes that we make in the cues that we have to pay attention to and things we have to do differently. Yeah, you know, they're very similar but some things are unique. You know, whether it's starting on the VIZ lasers, white light IR and then going back and forth for all that.
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A
Yeah. So we were also talking about kind of pid, what that looks like of in our world you want to kind of. How do you approach that with law enforcement?
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C
So you know, with, in the, in the indoor range, we do the best way I think is to, for guys to see it. You know, we'll do an actual demo where hey, let's put a guy. You know, we started off at, at the 50 meter, 50 meter range. We're kind of diagonal so a little bit more than 50 meters. And you know, Chris Palmer was out helping me with the course and he was walking around and kept changing objects in his hand, you know, and his, his back to us. It's all done super safe. But we are illuminating him and, and showing, hey, look like you can't tell what someone's holding at that distance. Not under white light, not under, under the IR laser with the flood. So getting guys to understand like there, it's a huge like kind of force multiplier and it's a huge advantage for officers to have this capability. But it, it's, it's also presenting another series of challenges where if you don't have the guys shooting at you, you have to positively identify. And then it starts that whole discussion, am I, am I actually in danger? Yeah, because it's 50 yards. He doesn't know I'm here. Right. Is it a credible threat? And then all of those things. And that's why for me, anytime I do classes like this where inevitably you're going to start talking about like the, the tactics piece and the legal part. I always have like Chris Palmer comes out, teaches with me, 26 year Phoenix cop and he is able to speak to all of those things. For me. I can't. I've never been a cop, will never be a cop. Right. My area of expertise, you know, coming from my time in the military and some things translate. But focusing on training, inevitably those discussions start about application and Chris is there to answer the mail and all that stuff.
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A
Now that's good that you recognize that because some guys don't and they'll give you their military spin on it and you're like dude, I've been to classes. I'm like, what are you talking about man? Like you can't do that here. Like that's not going to work. That's not going to fly so I'm glad you recognize that because that is a. And even within states, man, I mean there's some states you're like, I'm shocked with what guys can't do in some states. That is just what we do all the time here. So even within that and the law enforcement, it's still confusing and stuff. So what'd you get out of it, Matt? You were in the class, man, for two days.
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B
I got dirty guns out of his dirty guns. That was great. And as to his point, you know, we had the first two days was the other crew, the other side of the house from us, and the last two days was us. And so we came in, we start all over again on that Thursday. And some of the stuff that he was talking about, like you knew it was, it was understood, but you're getting, that's why you bring somebody like him and you're getting a perspective like in his, you know, in his history, his background, in his knowledge. This is how this pertains, this is how this works. Here's my thoughts on this. And it's, it's not like the laser works differently for him versus somebody else. Yeah, he's explaining to do why this does this or why that doesn't do that and being able to do that. And he had Chris there answering some questions. But here's the thing, like if you, if you are deploying with those and you're waiting on Chris to come in and tell you these things, you're already behind the curve anyway. He was just highlighting things, just a think, food for thought things about this. And so as you know, we've had people bring this up about with like the advanced HR trying to implement night vision. And the guy shows up and they're literally in the bag from L3 still in the plastic. And he's never taken them out of the bag. And he's like, how do I put these on? I was like, man, this is not, this is going to be a long, this is going to be a long thing. So you, if you're going to go into this class with him not knowing how to turn them on or not understanding some of that, it's going to be a little bit harder for you. You're going to be kind of behind. So this was, but it was, you know, it was, it was tailor made for us. You know, the guys that have reached out to him asking to do this, he set it up for us. It was great. We had, you know, two days, we had some viz stuff, white light, just explaining the offsets and depending if you have a mall, you have a D ball or a peck or in his case, in gal. Each one of those devices is a little bit different where the illuminator is and all this. So understanding all the offsets, you know, and how they corresponds to, you know, what you're seeing and all that. So it was, it was great. You know, lots of different, you know, shooting evolutions with white lights and vis lasers into the ir. But everything that we did, I think Matt, we did with visualizer. We turned right around, did it with ir. Right. So it was. Yeah, it was just repeating it. And you're okay. They've done it under white light where they're safe. Now I'm watching them do this and you would see where. Where I was shooting lower every time. Yeah, I kept shooting low.
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C
So I think there's a lot that guys can. Can pick up on the. The training side like in that. In the indoor range. Right. Or at dust training with the. With laser. Because you still have, you know, normal. Your natural field of view. Right. Your ability to focus, you know, add depth at different tar is. Is much, much easier. And then you just add another like close off the field of view. You know, focal plane is different and that just adds a modifier. But it's still the same things we're paying attention to over and over.
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A
The shooting is the shooting.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Well, it's so dark in there. I mean that thing is dark. And so you don't have your light or your, your illuminat on. I mean you can't see five feet in front of you unless there's somebody has like a helmet light or something. So what it does is if you're, if you're watching, your dot is very clear because there is no peripheral. I mean even just moving between targets that when you put them up like we knew had a generalized idea where they were. Yeah. Let's say 15, 25 yards. And yet you still would find yourself because it is so dark in there. You're using that illuminator and you're. And you just watch guys, their eye, their head would just move their illuminator because you're just happy, you know, as a. You know, so highlights what. Either you're doing it right or wrong. You'll see it real quick. And he would just stand by, go, you're doing this wrong, you're doing that right. Whatever, you know. Okay. It's easier to see for him so.
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A
Well, good. Well, you'll have a nice mosquitoes and snakes and all kinds of Stuff where we're going to be training the next two days.
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B
So.
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C
Perfect.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So we won't spoil you with air conditioning and like good toilets. We'll be a port of john and stuff.
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B
So no expense.
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A
Yeah, yeah. So you've been busy, man. You've been doing all kinds of stuff, man. You're always training, man. That's what I like about you. You're not just one that just, hey, I want you to do it this way, do it this way because this is the way I say it. You're always exploring and you're always pushing the limits to see where you are. And I appreciate that. So what does that look like for you? Because you're so busy? How do you maintain that training schedule and just being able to do things?
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C
Yeah, one thing that I've learned by, by being that busy is, is how I rely on dry fire, you know, the efficiency of training. Like when I have time to train, I'm not wasting time doing it little things, you know what I'll go. If I go shoot pistol, like I'm fortunate enough now, like I can have everything loaded and go out and have, you know, 500 rounds of pistol to where I'm not wasting time doing that. Especially when I'm, you know, balancing, you know, when I'm at home. I want to give the family as much as I can, but still there's this under underlying, I don't know, drive for me where I'm like, I'm, I need to keep getting better. I'm watching all these guys that I associate with get better and better and better and, you know, that train keeps going and I think you've got to focus, you know, especially as an instructor, somebody that's going to convey ideas and you, you have to want, continue to develop yourself.
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B
Yeah.
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C
You know, speaking with a guy today, I was like, you know, so much of my training now is me trying to disprove things that I know to be true to myself to see if they need to be, you know, reevaluated and evolved, you know, in terms of how I, how I approach like, you know, predictive shooting as a training tool and reactive shooting, you know, and it's all done. Where am I still doing the right thing performance wise? Can I get more performance out of myself in terms of shooting? And then how can I make the explanations of this stuff simpler?
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B
Is that an internal checks and balances or is it a balance of internal and then the external people asking you.
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C
And I think it, I think part of it, you know, it starts Internally, you know, and then I have a, you know, a great group of guys that I rely on for training that I'll freely share information with to as like a check, like, hey, am I. Is this right? Is this, does this make sense? This is what I'm saying. This is what I'm seeing in my training. This is what I'm thinking. You know, everything from, you know, Ben's non stop, 24 hours a day resource of just hitting them up and sharing information and ideas. And then, you know, Mike and kind of the, the group of guys that I like will, will discuss shooting and it's all guys that I know, they're putting in more work than I am. Right. And then that's an external motivator where, dude, I got it. You're getting better. I gotta do more, you know, and it's like this, it's like you ever gone on like a, a distance run with somebody, like, hey, let's just go for a little run and if you get within their eyesight and then pretty soon you're in a race. Right. And that's where I think that that external motivator. Yeah, it is a competitive nature. I mean, everybody, like in this little group are all competitive shooters, are all competitive people and competitive personalities that want to, you know, test themselves, you know, test themselves against other people. And in. So it, it is like a external motivation and a driving force for this.
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B
Well, the most competitive game is draw the most competitive people. Yeah, and I think that's very true in that regard.
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C
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, the, like, the business you're in, the business I was in, it's, that's, that is competition shooting at its best, you know.
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B
Oh yeah.
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C
And you want to win, you know, because winning means that you're doing everything right. You're, you get to go home every night, you get to continue to go on to and be the one that they call for the hardest, you know, most challenging tasks.
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A
Absolutely. One thing too. People that don't know you, had conversation with you or been to a class with you just know you from Instagram. They have a different perception of actually who you, who you truly are. You're. I think you're Mr. I think you're Ms. Misunderstood a lot. Like, it's not just shooting that you train. There's other things that you train besides just that. Everybody just sees that because that's what you're putting out because that's what your, your company is mainly about. So they don't even understand some of the Other stuff that you're even doing as well, you know.
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C
Yeah, I think for me it's that the, the outward perception is, is what from a training standpoint with things that, that I valued, you know, throughout my career, that I still value that that made me better, that, that make me here able to talk and. Yeah, those are the things that I want to promote, you know, I want to promote guys, you know, internally motivated guys. Take your, your own development serious and start train these hard skills. Right. This is the easiest thing to talk about.
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A
Yeah.
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C
You know, I'm not, I don't get off on like discussing like a lot of the other things that I'm training at, you know, for my own development, you know, personally, professionally, like those are all things that I'm doing and I don't think a lot of that stuff needs or I would say I don't feel like I would have the, the, the right skill level to sit there and start talking about that stuff. Like I'm an expert at, you know, and that's one of the problems with the way people are now absorbing content and yeah, you know, the, the demand signal is now feeding into like content creators that are just talking and, and making stuff just to make it.
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A
You, you posted, I think it was yesterday, the day before, and I, I'll probably butcher it, but it was basically, it was someone else's, I think dry fire video and you shared on your story and it was basically the same thing about content. People create content and then this is actually training and I, and I like that because that guy posted it to show his training and his progression in the training, not for just, hey, I want content just so I can have more followers and all that kind of stuff. And there's a big difference in that.
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C
Yeah, I see, I see tons of guys like that that are. And I think that is. I forget his name. I'd like to, to say it, but, but I've watched him. Yeah, right. He's on asthma. I'll find it. Yeah, but I've watched him from four years ago, like first answering messages and I always tell everyone, like people that reach out to me, you know, my enthusiasm for your development is going to match your commitment. Yeah. If I see you working like that motivates, I'll give you whatever information. If I don't know that, if I don't know it. Oh, I will, you know, I'll find, I'll find the answer. I'll hook you up with the guy that does know.
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B
Yeah.
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C
And I see it, I see that as like the most, you know, beneficial thing for guys, the guys that want to learn. It's not, oh, you need to, you need to sign up with this class or here, get into my, you know, paid subscription thing and that's where the answers are going to be. And I just put teasers out here. Like I want guys to get better, I want them to train.
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A
Yeah.
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C
And the, the, the, there's so much information out there. You know, part of the barrier to, to having guys develop their hard skills and over develop is one you got to sift through what's right, what meets you, what's right for you, what's right for your application, what you needed to do, what's real and what's not real. Right. That's becoming harder and harder now to see like what is content and what's actual training.
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A
Yeah.
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C
And then other than that, once you're, and you really don't need to sift through those barrier that barrier too hard or defeat that barrier too hard, as long as you're willing to work.
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A
Yeah.
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C
And that's the biggest way. Just start doing something.
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A
Yeah. No, and you told me that, I mean early on in our, in this meeting and man, you've held true to that with me. There's never been any time that I've asked a question, we've had conversations at three in the morning because you, you're somewhere and I'm, you know, up at whatever, man. You've always been accessible. So I, I do appreciate that. Like a couple years ago you set up the tier one cops and it's all just cops and you. And man, there's discussions on all kinds of shit on that, that deal, man. But there's a lot of learning that goes on. There's a lot of information sharing. I mean those guys shot that match this weekend and there were several guys on that group and everybody was like, hey man, how do we do better? How do we do this? And that's that community, in that community that, that you're responsible for starting that in the law enforcement culture.
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C
In a culture.
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A
Yeah.
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C
And we talked about this at the end of the course. It's like, it's the worst advice that I give as someone who runs a training company. Yeah. Is getting team, you know, intact teams to recognize like you possess all of the experience, all of the knowledge and everything to train yourselves.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Right. In absence of anyone from the outside. Right. No one knows your business and what you need more and then figuring out, you know, where. Like that's why I like goals rather than standards. Right. Keep set a goal, meet it, push on, keep going. You know, because in terms of the skills, you know, you use that analogy like there's, there's never a boxer that's like I'm too fast and I punch too hard.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Right. You're not, yeah.
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B
You're not gonna find that guy.
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C
Yeah. It's never going to be a negative thing. Yeah, Speed, speed and accuracy and power. Right. That's never going to be a negative thing. Yeah. Yeah. So I think in terms of hard, like that's why I emphasize like focus on the hard skills. Over. You will never hit an end point. You'll just keep, continue to over develop them.
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B
And I think being in your position where you see this is wide variety of people, whether it be content creators or dudes that truly just want to get better and everything in between. Right. There's just these, they build these little empires where they, they do not want anything said differently or if you say something that they agree with, then they jump onto it like, oh well, he agrees with me or whatever. And I think you probably, you know, I don't know, is that a challenge to sort that out because like, or do you like, I know right away with this guy's after. Or I know he's trying to draw me off sides or you know, how much is that challenge to that? Because I'm sure you probably get a lot of either videos or request or hey, what are your thoughts on this? You know, and it's, it's probably a juggling act. You're trying to help them. But at the same time we talked about a little bit earlier before we got on is like you're trying to be just direct with them because we don't have time to do this. And then they, they push back.
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C
Yeah, yeah. Yo, they'll they'll 100 push back or. And it. Is that.
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B
Right?
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C
That's a good way to say it. Right? Like they're trying to draw you off sides and. Yeah, hey, but you asked me my opinion. That's my opinion. Like let's, first and foremost, let's not forget who contacted who.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
Oh yeah, right. I've had that conversation before.
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C
Right. And there's a, there's a lot of people like that. Like, yeah, let's, let's not ever forget who's paying attention to who's doing what. Right. I'm not, I'm looking at a very small group of guys in terms of curriculum development and training development in evolution. Right. I'm not paying attention to the vast Majority of anybody as like something that I want to emulate or do. So that's. That's one thing, you know, that's easy to sift through, you know, because over the. Over the last five years, you know, we hear more and more people now using the same words that. That myself, that Ben, that Juan have used for years. Yeah, right. And it's good. It's like, I believe that that's right, you know, but also, don't get tied to it. It may change. Something may be different, you know, as we figure, figure another thing out. Right. The explanations keep getting shorter, you know, you think, I know you've got to train with Juan Dyck before. I mean, the way that his brain works about training and shooting, it's just like, for me, it's like, you can. I gotta do it in like, short doses. It's like I listen to what you say, following what you're doing, you know, and now it's like, I need to go sit somewhere and unpack this and make sure that I understand it, because he understands it just at a completely different level. The same way, you know, that Ben does, the same way that Joel does. And they all explain things a little bit differently.
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B
That. That.
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A
That is the nice things. Like when I had Sean out a couple months ago, we did the podcast with him and we kind of talked about some of that same stuff and. And just sidebars and conversations we'd have. I'm like, man, you know what. What you're saying, I've heard it, but the way you. Your twist on it, I really like that. It really resonated with me. Or you added more to it that I'm like, oh, I really get that now. Or it reaffirms what I already knew, which is also a good thing, too. So I do appreciate instructors. And it is like, yeah, well, yeah, here's.
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B
Here's who.
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A
Who I grew up, you know, watching and learning from, and I've just taken it and made it my own. But it's still relatable and it's still practical, and it still goes back to the work that he was putting in or any of these instructors are putting in.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Because if you don't, man, you see it.
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C
And Sean's a, you know, the. A perfect example, right. Of a law enforcement guy, high level competition Grant. And he can. Explains it. Well, from everything I've heard, watching him talk online, I've never, never trained with him in person. But the other thing, he can stand there and deliver it. Yeah, right. Like, without a doubt. Like this is like at a very high level. Demonstrate it. And, and I think it, I don't think his, he's doing that like he can, he can only do that with the things that he wants to teach. No, those high level guys, like you put them on anything.
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A
Yeah.
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C
And that you're going to see performance.
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A
And I think that's where. And this is not a. So if anybody's listening online, like, oh, Brandon's just, you know, kissing his ass. It's not. Because I truly know you and we've had a lot of conversations and I think that's where a lot of people see the Persona on Instagram.
- [24:57]
B
Oh, you're in your con.
- [24:58]
A
No, there's a lot of dudes you don't call out because they're doing the right way. It might not be exactly the way you might present it or you. But they're not being just all about their business and selling a bunch of. And, and just being just dicks about some stuff. And for me, I appreciate that, like, like we said, hey, directness sometimes doesn't fly well with a lot of people, especially if you call them on their bullshit. And I think that's important.
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C
I think the, A lot of that gets. You know, I've never thought when I, when I started my company that I would have other grown alpha type men call me toxic. Yeah, it was, I was like, that just wasn't even a word that was in, in my, you know, there's. But that became, it becomes like a buzzword. That's toxic leadership.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Now that's just what leadership looks like when you look up at. From the bottom sometimes. Yeah.
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B
Yeah. Well, would it be safe to say. And you know, I think everybody has their own perspectives of it. If we sat down, we talked about this is a CQB which is the most biggest, you know, Pandora's box you can open. Right.
- [26:07]
A
Talking about religion.
- [26:07]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And with all three of us, like, if we talked about it for two straight hours, there's going to be some things we disagree on or have a different perspective on. But it's not like I'm gonna sit there and go, well, I'm gonna discount anything you say now because I don't agree with it. And that's the problem that I see. And it's not just, it's. I think. And I didn't cqb, like, I know people that go, matt, I don't even want to talk about CQB because the, the fight that it in that in a sense suing after that and it is brutal. And then they come and they ask or they come to a class. And Brandon, I've talked about this at Great Links. Like, like, like to your point, remember you signed up for this class, like you, you know, chose us or selected, whatever, and we're giving. And I lead off like, look, I'm not here to talk about what you do back home. Like, that's not my mission. I don't know, and I don't care not to say what you're doing is wrong. We're here to show you our perspective. Not the way. It's a way, it's the way that we do it. Here's what we're showing you. Any, I think any good student should be able to walk in there for two or three days and do exactly what you asked us to do. I mean, like, I, I never thought for a second with the two days with you. Well, I don't agree with that. So I'm gonna do my own thing. No, I, I think any good student, you should do that and hear what they have to say. And then I can compare notes and go, hey, here's the reason why I don't agree with her. I don't know. But if I just discount it and don't do it, yeah, you know, does that make sense? And so I, I, I think you're, I'm sure because of your position, you're probably seeing even more of that and they're pushing back and you're like, well, then why did you ask?
- [27:37]
C
I think they're people. You know, the CQB debate, it's brutal. I get more, more hate mail gatekeeping, dude. I'm not a proponent of the Second Amendment because I'm not out there training, you know, everyone, you know that wants to do an open enrollment CQB course. And it's, it's like, you know, my belief on the training, training anything, right? And CQB is the prime thing. If, if I am, if it's a requirement for me to run 100 meters in 11 seconds, I am never going to train to do it in 15 or 20, right? I'm going to be going fast and hard all the time. And that's what people don't, don't understand. Like, I am a huge proponent of training dynamic points of domination. Cqb, from my experience, that is the hardest thing to execute. It's the hardest thing to be very precise at, right? You have to have the best shooting skill to do it. You have to have the best communication stuff. You have to have the best conceptualization, understanding of what that tactic of CQB is to execute that. And then if there's a time where you need to be slow. Right. And you need to be methodical and you need to be quiet, you have that skill set.
- [28:54]
B
Yeah.
- [28:55]
C
Because. But everyone's. Well, no, then we just run into our death. I mean, that just means, like, then you don't even have the right brain. Like, you're not thinking when you, when you go onto a. You just shut it off and like, I'm just going to go on full autopilot, autopilot mode and do what I've. What I've always done in the shoe house. Yeah. No, it's like we're talking about the training piece of it. Not once have I ever, like, talked about an application. Like, you know, you tell guys, like, hey, what you're doing in the doorway is not safe for these reasons. Right. And this, this is the history of that ttp. This is where it comes from in the military. But the wall stopped bullets and we did it at night. Yeah. Like, you can take that information, believe it or not. But I know one thing that everyone that I know who does CQB as a profession, their number one. The number one thing that they're thinking about is dominating the target.
- [29:50]
A
Yeah.
- [29:51]
C
Everyone that does CQB as an enthusiast, their number one thing they're thinking about is their own safety. Yeah. And it's not a safe thing. Right. So right off the bat, like, we're not having the same conversation. Yeah.
- [30:03]
B
Right.
- [30:03]
C
You want to be safe. And I'm telling you that this business is not safe. And there's nothing you can do. You can execute it perfectly. You can do everything. Right. Charges are like, everything is perfect and still lose. Yeah. Because it's the nature of that business.
- [30:19]
A
It sure is.
- [30:20]
B
Well, let's go ahead.
- [30:21]
A
No, go ahead, Matt.
- [30:22]
B
As I say, is, are you there to win or are you there not to lose? And I think it's like prevent defense and all down football. You know, they get in that. They get in that shell defense, they just march right down the field and as opposed to what? Maybe got them there putting pressure, you know, being aggressive, being proactive. You may have sacked quarterback and solved this, but nope, you sit back, let him just dictate to. You went right down the field and they scored and you just lost the damn game.
- [30:45]
C
Yeah.
- [30:45]
B
Yeah. I think it's. I think that's very busted parallel. And we see it all the time. People come in talking and believe me, we make our mistakes, we are not perfect by any means. My God, we make mistakes and we will continue to make them. However, we try to make them at full speed and we're trying to be. Speed is your security. And we run again. We talked about this. I have very, very fortunate in my career to run a lot of warrants, a lot of operations and great 90% of them have been in a dynamic fashion. And I'm here to tell you, like, I can't imagine doing it any other way. And people go, well, that's Matt, because you've only been trained that way. No, I've been trained in a lot of different disciplines. But I'm here to tell you after all these years, I'm still in a big believer in this and here's the reasons and the data behind it. But then they'll argue with you about it. And I'm like, I'm so, I. That's your opinion. You're absolutely entitled to it, but it's not going to change my perspective. And then they, like you said, they lash out. Well, you're just, you know, you're gatekeeping. That's a good term use. Or you're, you know, you're trying to prohibit them. Like, where is the benefit of me keeping you from doing that? Yeah, there is, there's nothing for me to do that. But yet you see it and it's a, it's, it's a, it's a conundrum that you just can't get out of almost with some of those.
- [31:51]
C
The other one, I don't, I. That, that drives me nuts is someone will put out a video in the public sphere. Right. Or they're, they're making a training video or something and then you comment on it. And that comment is direct and not positive and not supporting. Yeah, you know, it's not like, oh, you fucking piece of shit. But it's, it's not supporting their idea or their concept and then somehow that's a negative. Well, you don't understand the context. Well, I also didn't make the video, man. You did. And I read the write up and I watched it and, and then this is what I see. So if there's more context, that's up to the creator of that video to put that out. But I'm going off of what I heard you say, the message, what I saw, and, and then this is my view. And they're like, and it always defaults to where like, you know, we're just not going to acknowledge that you take like. Well, we're just, we're morally above it or what? Whatever.
- [32:48]
A
Blocking you, Matt.
- [32:49]
B
You're blocked.
- [32:50]
C
Whatever. That's the. The best one. You just block me, please. It's better.
- [32:54]
A
Well, I think, too, like, going back to the whole CQB deal, I think there's. There's. There's teams or there's guys that have the philosophy of this is a defensive mindset, or there's other guys, and I think we're all on this side. It's an offensive. We're being aggressive, pushing the offense.
- [33:12]
B
We.
- [33:13]
A
We are going after you. We are trying to clear as much space as we can, and we're trying to take this house or whatever structure down as fast and efficiently as we can. And that's the offensive mindset. And where other teams are like, let's play defense. Let's do this. I'm like, man, you give anybody enough time to do stuff, and they'll. They'll. They'll wreck your world up, man. They'll do all kinds of stuff. Especially in your house for four hours. You give them 45 seconds. I mean, always talk about, you know, just split times 20, 20 split times. That's five rounds in a second, okay? So one second is five rounds. So now we get two seconds. Now there's 10 rounds. Like, if you start just doing that math, you realize how efficient you better be on things and how one thing can lead to. Now that's one second here, and then this is three more seconds here. And now you've given someone 42 seconds. That's a lot of damn rounds someone could do or a lot of things that they can cover. And I don't think people really understand that. Sometimes it's just, well, if we don't do this, they won't. How do you know this?
- [34:16]
C
There. That's the. You know, it's. When you. When you start having these discussions about cqp, you're talking about kind of three different threat levels, right? You're talking about a real threat, right? Things that we've seen, the most likely course of action and most dangerous course of action, right? Those are threats that we've seen. Those are things we know exist. Then there's this, the perceived threat. Well, what if this. Well, what if this. And then there's those straight theoretical threats. And a lot of that stuff comes out in like four. Well, you know, now you got to look at the angles. It's like you, You. There's four of us. We can't cover all the angles. Yeah, right. It's 360 Degree World. Like, you Cannot cover the. And then also it's like, well, what about this guy is three rooms deep, shooting through a tiny. And that's how he's. He's hitting the team. Yeah. Then we're all going to get stacked there. But also, now show me that guy in reality. Yeah, Right. And, and inevitably someone. Well, this one time. Nope. When have you experienced it on this team? Right. Never. Okay, let's talk about what you have experienced and then let's talk about. Let's train to the most, you know, we understand the most likely course of action of the adversary. Let's talk about the most dangerous thing. The most dangerous thing that any suspect or adversary can do is they want to fight inside the room.
- [35:40]
A
Yeah.
- [35:41]
C
Right. So what are we doing to prevent that? Right. And that's. Then you start to see. Well, the right answer, in my opinion is always going to be, I want to fight this at full speed. I want to steal time away. So I'm doing things faster than his perceived, you know, real time, you know, real life speed. And how I always explain that you think if you are. If you are in your driveway and you're sitting there and then all of a sudden you like, shit, I left my wallet in my bedroom. Right. Which a lot of people, I'm sure you've seen it retreat, right? From what I've seen, they retreat back deep into the house, they go to a bedroom, and they usually all stand in one thing where they can see the doorway and they're deciding what do they want to do. The real real life speed is that guy opens his doorway, quickly walks back to his room, gets his wallet and leaves. He can conceptualize how long it took to get back there. If I can do anything faster than what he conceptualizes as real life speed, I'm stealing that time and I'm putting him off balance and I'm giving myself the advantage right where I've already lost. Surprise. It's the first thing you lose on any assault. Once you go in there, you either give it up willingly, like knocking announce, or you give it up unwillingly where it's just a byproduct of. Of the techniques that you're using. When I do that, I lose that principle. I give that one up, I have to leverage the other two. Right. Speed is the next one. It's the next one that we're going to leverage, and it's also the next one that we're going to lose. If he wants to fight and it becomes a true barricade, we're going to lose the ability to go fast and then we leverage. It's violence of action. I think we were talking about this earlier. If I had my way back in the 80s, I probably would make that initiative. Right. Because it's not. Violence of action to me means initiative. Right. Initiative gaining devices. Yes. Things that I can employ different strategies. Right. That I can employ to regain that initiative. Sometimes time is that. Yeah. It's a barricade. Right. We're going to not pursue. Bullets are coming out of the doorway. I'm not saying ever that we're going to run through that door, but we pull back and now time is what we're using to gain, you know, surprise. Back again.
- [37:55]
A
Yeah.
- [37:55]
C
You know, and I think Chris says it the best say, like law enforcement is, you know, a million and oh, in waiting guys out, there's not a burglar anywhere that's still in the building.
- [38:07]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [38:08]
C
You know, and then you just. But, but understanding that, you know, to conceptualize CQB differently than what I think what gets put out, you know, in terms of on YouTube or, you know, social media. And I think there's also. It's a big consideration for departments for individuals to look at is am I taking my training and developing the way that I'm doing business based off of something that I saw on social media or something that I saw on YouTube that I haven't experienced firsthand? And I think that's a dangerous thing. Right. Like, I know I get. I was hired by Dallas to come here, you know, and a large part of that is be because of people's perception or understanding, thinking what I used to do in the military right there. So there was some level of research that, hey, this is what I'm going to do.
- [39:06]
A
Yeah.
- [39:06]
C
Or we're going to hire him because of this, because of skills that we believe he has to come and convey this information. But that level of scrutiny for hiring like me doesn't apply when people. Are you researching, like, who's talking on this video? Like, where does this information come from? Or are you looking for that? Are you looking at this video as information? Are you just bored and absorbing content?
- [39:33]
A
Yeah.
- [39:34]
C
Both of those are equally as bad.
- [39:36]
A
No, they are.
- [39:37]
C
Right. Because it starts to. It starts to mess with your. The way that you perceive reality. You know, that's what social media, what Instagram is designed to do.
- [39:46]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [39:46]
B
Well, I think as a professional in any business, if you're doing your job the right way and you care and you're putting in great effort to be really good at it. Whether you're the greatest or not, that's not the point. You're trying really hard to be great. It's kind of like we talked about the other day. If it's a good plan, it'll stand up to scrutiny. You may be able to come in and go, hey, maybe we ought to do this. And then if you are a professional, like, you know what, that's a good idea, Matt. Let's change that. Or like, hey, I thought about that, but here's the reason why I don't want to do it. Because ABC, 1, 2, 3. Like, okay, fine. I think good, good pros can do that in any business. But what happens is, in my opinion, what I see is that they, they, they ask a pro or what they perceive to be a pro, your opinion or this. And then when it goes where it doesn't line up or it's not what. And I, I think Barry and I talk about this. I think there's, there's, it's broken down into a couple groups. One, you have guys who just simply just do not understand what they're asking in. Like, they don't have a concept of operations because they've never done it. Doesn't mean they may not have been able to do it. But because of the SOPs or their command will allow them to do certain things. So they don't have a reference to like a dynamic entry and all this. Or you have two group that just, they're not capable. Like, they do not possess the skills to do this and nobody's ever told them or they refuse to listen to it, or the ones that just don't care what anybody else says, they go, I'm building these little empires. I want to stay here. I'll make a decisions based on promotability or sustainability. I want to stay here forever. And I want to be this guy. And I see that group working in and out, and I think that's what you're talking about to some of them. Does that make sense?
- [41:19]
C
Yeah, yeah. The, the, you know, the people build walls around, like, ways of thinking. Yeah. And the hardest thing for them, they build it over time. And it's thick and it's big and it's tall. And the hardest thing for them to do is when you come in and present something that you know to be true. Right. And then you try to, hey, you've got to take part of this wall down there. Like, I've been building this for 30 years. I can't take this wall down. Yeah, right. It's. And That's. And then you can't, you can't affect that. Then good luck. You know, it's. But like, I know, I know from, you know, just like everywhere in the military though, all the lessons that they learned doctrinally were, were paid for in blood. They. Yep. You know, we do business a certain way because of loss, not because of wins. So every time we lose, it's looking at, hey, are. Is what we're doing right? Is this the best thing or does something need to change? Has the battlefield changed that fast where now what we're doing is no longer effective?
- [42:17]
B
Do you think leadership or lack of leadership in a lot of those places is a reason why? You see, it could be everybody did everything okay. Just, it was just that one off where we did everything right and it still went bad for us, which can happen. Or they feel like because something went bad, we have to change something because I have to show that I'm doing my job.
- [42:36]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that is. And you know, it's, it's hard, it's hard for me to speak about like the leadership part in LE or like, well, this is what I think. But, but it does make sense to me that it, it is lack of, to stand up and say, hey, I support, like I would love it just to see police chiefs rather than, you know, everyone's guilty of whatever. And the worst thing is like, no, I support what my officers did and this is. Right. Because of this way. And then actually have those stars on your collar, flex them, use them for what they're supposed to be and stand up for, for dudes doing things right. Because I think the vast majority of guys are, you know, from the LEO side are, are doing it all right. Right. But they're also very, very apprehensive about what's going to happen to them if they do it wrong. And that's driving decision making processes and that's driving trickles down bad outcomes, you know, because they're like, I don't. Or I know if I do this, I'm, I'm, I could potentially lose my job because no one supports me. Yeah, right. And it's, and there's all of those factors in there. So I think it is, it does make sense to me that, that it does become a leadership issue. But again, I abandoned the, the idea years ago that any of these organizations are going to change. Yeah. It's the best thing you can do is change individual, individual officers at the lowest level, the end users, and set them up for success. The best Way. Yeah, you can because, you know, Trojan
- [44:12]
B
horse, it kind of.
- [44:13]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Until you, yeah, until you, you get, you know, chiefs of police and commanders that are not political. Right. And they're also not so far disconnected and that's not happening and removed. And I think there should be, right there, there should be some sort of requirement like if you, if you are going to be a commander of that you need these experience levels.
- [44:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, right.
- [44:36]
C
It's not, it's not. You just promote the first time it's available every time it sends you there
- [44:41]
B
to get experiences like a little late in the game.
- [44:43]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [44:44]
B
Well, having been there where I've seen a lot of change in command, good ones and bad ones and the ones that were, you know, the best ones were obviously the ones that had been there that had done, you know, small team tactics. You know, they don't see the grand picture of, you know, 3,000 officers. They see the 30 right here. And the ones that do that, they can break it down to a micro level, are usually the most successful. And they're also the ones that are competent. They go, hey, what do you believe? What do y'?
- [45:11]
A
All?
- [45:11]
B
And they show up to training, they know what you're capable of. So when you say something on the radio and go, hey, we need to do ABC 1, 2, 3, they're like, yeah, let's do that or that's approved or whatever because they, they trust that because they, they were there. This one time we had Mark Villarrell who's now a two star chief with us. He was, he came over to SWAT right after I did and we ran wars together and he came back as our lieutenant. He was there as our major. And so when he was working the CP and you would say, hey, we need to do this, he 100 knew exactly what you were saying. He, he knew in his mind and he could see that overlay that conceptual operations. Absolutely. It's approved. Go get that done. And it just streamlined our process. And while he was there, it was like, it was like a heyday for us because it was so nice having that guy because he could, he could run interference with the stuff that didn't people didn't, didn't he get involved with. And at the same time he spoke your language and he understood that and he's, you know, and he's done really well and so. And they've been on the other side where he didn't have that. It's, it's hard. It's, it's a hard push.
- [46:06]
C
Yeah, it's I mean it's, it's common sense. Right. You see it in the military and I get it, law enforcement is, you know, pseudo, pseudo military type organization or paramilitary type organization. But infantry officers run infantry battalions. Supply officers don't run supply infantry battalions. Yeah, right. Because you don't have the experience in that world to do it. You know, and that's the thing. It's like you to, to take command of. You should be an expert at what you're taking command of. Right, right. And I think that usually isn't the case. Yeah. Or, or when guys are like in the le world, that's the exception and not the rule.
- [46:46]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our lieutenant now, Lieutenant Taylor, he was there as a troop. He left, got promoted and he's there as a sergeant now. He's back as our lieutenant. So he's done it as a troop sergeant and now the lieutenant level. So it's so nice now having those guys in somewhat the last few years back to back command.
- [47:02]
C
Yeah.
- [47:02]
B
It's rare and for us that didn't happen. So I've been like, you just, we're just waiting for it to go bad again because you've been so, we've been so spoiled the last few years that it's just nice. Yeah.
- [47:11]
C
It's hard too because you get what I've noticed. You know, just like any, the right, the right guy that becomes a SWAT officer that works hard and is working at it, he doesn't want to not be on the team. No.
- [47:21]
B
They don't promote very many people.
- [47:22]
C
And there's, and there's some guys, you're like, hey man, like you've been, I need you to go get promoted and leave and come back.
- [47:30]
B
Yeah.
- [47:30]
C
I need to fill these positions. Right. And I think in terms of like a talent management, you know, that doesn't happen because also it's like, I think people would look at that like, dude, I'm crushing it on SWAT. Like I want to stay here for 30 years and. Yeah. And be a SWAT officer. I don't want to do this. Want to go, you know, from what, you go be a sergeant, you'll get promoted to sergeant and then you go somewhere else. You're like, I'm not on the team anymore. How is the team even functioning when I'm not.
- [47:57]
B
Yeah.
- [47:58]
A
Yeah.
- [47:59]
C
You know.
- [47:59]
A
Yeah. And that's, that's, that's one of our biggest downfalls for, in the SWAT community. Because you're right, I don't, I don't want to not do this fun. I don't you know, I don't want to do this.
- [48:09]
B
I'm just as bad. I haven't done it.
- [48:10]
A
Yeah, I don't want to sit. Sit and watch all and do all that. That's not fun to me. So that, that is, that is. That is a.
- [48:17]
B
He's basically hard at us is what he's saying.
- [48:18]
A
Yeah, yeah. So it's like, man, why do I want to, you know, I. I don't know.
- [48:25]
B
Well, you need the right people to promote, too.
- [48:27]
A
Yeah.
- [48:27]
B
Just because you're a good SWAT officer doesn't mean you're gonna make a good commander, too.
- [48:30]
A
So it's true, too.
- [48:31]
B
There's good, there's good SWAT guys are not a good instructors, you know, and vice versa. So it's, it's a, It's a right recipe, you know, to do it the right way. And I said, the couple guys that have done it with us, they've done it right. And I'm thankful for those guys because not everybody sued it. Cut out to duck. I wouldn't want to work in hq. Like, I just. I don't blend, you know, there, so I just don't want to do it. So I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to go. But there's guys that can juggle it. They're better. They're more well rounded than I am, I'll say that.
- [48:58]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, you know, it's. It's one of the things, when I was, you know, in the military, it's like living. Living in an outstation, living on a base, doing missions all the time. That's awesome.
- [49:11]
B
Yeah.
- [49:11]
C
And then there was a. There, There comes a time where it's like, you do it. You're about to do a rotation where you got to go, and now you got to work in some headquarters or an embassy as a liaison. You're like, I don't want to do this. And the whole time you have to just. Don't talk. Don't say what you're thinking, like. And that's always a good. Like, say it once to yourself. Find a trusted agent, say it to him. And they'll generally be like, don't say that. No,
- [49:38]
B
that's every day. He told you, do not say that either.
- [49:40]
C
Yeah, no, yeah. No, once to yourself, Come say it to me. Like, yeah, it's okay to say.
- [49:45]
B
I was thinking the same thing. We showed up Thursday in Fort Worth. I'm like, say it to yourself and don't say anything out loud. Please, God, let's get through these next two days without anything crazy, so.
- [49:54]
A
Well, we're all 49 year old angry men right now, so, you know, we're all, we're all about to hit 50. I think I'm the oldest one, right. Because I'm in June, so. And then yard behind me, so I'm the, I'm the old guy here of the 49 year old club here. So some days I feel like I'm miles. Yeah. Some days I feel like I'm 89. I'm like, damn, dude, and stuff. So what do you see you're heavily involved in, in the, in the police world and, and ask a lot of these guys the same question and, and I think I'll get the same answer. But what are you seeing with these police shootings that you're like, man, if they'd only worked on this or they'd only done that. What, what do you, what do you, what's what's kind of your thought process on that? When you see some of these body
- [50:38]
C
cam videos from the ones that I see, you know, they're all, they're all consistent. They all have a common theme. Right. There's one thing that I, that I would say 99% of all body cam patrol officer shootings that I see have in common is they're all fast.
- [50:56]
A
Yeah.
- [50:57]
C
Right. They all unfold quickly. And the shooting takes place at paces where I think for most officers that's the first time they've ever shot at that pace. So what I, where I, you know, it's hard to say, well, what if he did this, that or did that? Like it's, it's horrible to sit in an armchair quarterback, that stuff. But what I do say is like, this is why these skills, I believe, are important. Yeah. Right. This is why we're training. Because here's the outcome right now. I remember I posted one where it was like a murder suspect carrying a kid with a, you know, turns around, has a gun on and the officer starts shooting.
- [51:35]
A
Was that the one with one hand?
- [51:37]
C
Yeah. And yeah, he's running away shooting.
- [51:38]
B
Not icy bridge or something.
- [51:40]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [51:41]
B
That is crazy.
- [51:41]
C
And obviously it's like everybody you know in the initial comments of that are like, well done, that's amazing or whatever. It's like, wait a minute, you know, And I put that thing into an editor and I'm like, so find out the backstory like this is like you just approach this situation incorrectly. Like that guy already killed the wife or the mom and now he has the dog. Like you are in an HR situation. You just don't know. You are. Yeah. Right now. And then when he whips around and pulls a pistol out. So you would think, you know, from that presentation, at a minimum, you should be at the same time. Yeah, right. Like I would think murder suspect or whatever, you approach it with the gun out. So, you know, gun out, already ready, giving him commands. Right. And then the blindfire shooting on low percentage shots. It's like you just hope and luck was your primary engagement strategy with that. And it worked out. You got away with it. But, but when you look at it like this is, this is almost every bad situation all wrapped up into one incident that just happens to be filmed in very, very good video.
- [52:49]
A
Yeah. And I think that's where like when you said that added some thoughts came to my head. I'm like, okay, you're talking with this guy. You're, you know, you're the chief of police of that department. Like you don't want to just kick the guy in the dick. Hey man, good for you that you're willing to fire the gun to shoot this guy, that you were brave enough to go after this guy. All those good things. Hey, good job. But here's some things that we need to learn because don't think this is the best way to shoot at someone, especially old Stitch and stuff like that, and then learn from that way. I think that's where we lose it as like you were saying, well, you're, you're disrespecting my shooting or this or that. You're. You're being a brain like, no man, we're. We're seeing some things that are just not good. It just was good in this situation because of luck. And that is not.
- [53:44]
B
It's hard way to make a living doing that.
- [53:45]
A
Yeah, we're not training that way. I mean, you can go watch an NFL game and there's been teams that won because of a luck play, of a fumble or just crazy stuff. They didn't plan, they didn't practice that way. It just happened. And did they win? Yeah, hey, did they win a Super Bowl?
- [54:01]
B
Yeah.
- [54:01]
A
Or they. Whatever they get, yeah, they won. But I guarantee you when they go back and watch film, they're not going, hey man, next time we're going to do the exact same thing. It's not going to happen that way. And I think that's where cops in particular, we have our egos and we get butt hurt because someone can, hey, did you think about this or. Man, this is. Wasn't the best thing.
- [54:21]
C
That's one of the things I think that, you know, teams and even, you know, post shoot, groups of officers need to do, need to be better at is how they like hot wash things. Like, I think you could probably even do, you know, an instruction on like, hey, this is how you debrief. Yeah, right. This is how you.
- [54:39]
A
Well, I think we're going to do one of the, we talked about that on podcast, doing a train up on debriefs and stuff like that.
- [54:45]
C
Yeah. Like, I think, you know, you, you go through everything, but it's, you're, you can hot wash by exception. But a lot of times what happens is it's a recount of. And I'm sure you've seen it. Right. Some individuals will just recount all of the good shit that they did. Right. And hey, this went well. It's like, okay, let's talk about what could have been better. Yeah, right, let's do that. Let's talk about what went wrong. Because it all didn't go right. No. You know, it almost never does. And then look at like, is this something that needs to change? Where was it a deficiency? Or like, hey, did we, did we dodge, literally dodge a bullet on this one? Yeah, right. We got lucky. We got away with it. But let's, you know, let's talk, have a quick discussion about this can't be the norm. We need to get back on track with this is how we do business. Yeah. And then when you walk out of there, it's fine in debris. Right. To argue, to fight, to have that. It's like, hey, we're done. Cool. It's all out now. It's all on the table. We're a team again. We walk outside the door and we're united again. Yeah, right. And don't carry that. You know, it's a. I say, I would say it for years, you know, disciplining my kids, where it's like, this happened. Right. The punishment was carried out, like it's over.
- [55:59]
A
Yeah.
- [56:00]
C
Right. I don't. Now the big thing now is how do we move forward from this? How are we going to learn from this? Like, what are we going to do better so that we're not back here?
- [56:09]
A
No, for sure.
- [56:10]
C
In the kitchen with the spoon again.
- [56:11]
A
I think for two. For like when we got into law enforcement and we were on swat, man, we didn't have body cameras. So all those debriefs were things that you had to remember or someone else saw. Now when you have a debrief and you're watching everybody's body camera, man, there's, there's absolutely no hiding anything, like, because you see everything. And so I think that is even a better tool to even use to go, hey, man, like, we're watching this video and, and you, if you don't call yourself out and you're not bringing up your own shortcomings on this, because there's no perfect run. I've never seen a perfect run. I mean, there's always something that we could have done differently or, or this change or shit. We always would have known this. We'd have done. We'd have planned this differently because we had no idea or whatever the case may be. But I think that's. That's a big failure for us in law enforcement a lot of times.
- [56:59]
C
One of the things I've seen, you know, in units, I've been in the right guys, you know, and it's, it's not a debrief. Start big, right? Lots of people in the room, debrief all the players. Then it strips away. Right now the air elements and everything are out. Just the guys that were on the target, on the ground. Debrief that, right? The intel side, and then those guys leave, right? And it gets down to where. Now this is just the operational element, right? The troop or the team that went into the building and then the leadership for that. And that's where. That's the time in my mind where I've seen when. When it's the right guys that are doing it, right? They're racing to stand up. Hey, man, this is what happened. Like, shit. That we'd be on big targets where I didn't even realize, yeah, there was like a major incident and one guys own it and like, this is what it did or whatever. And almost to a man, you know, that guy is like, you know, I completely think, you know, if I need to step away or whatever, if it's so grave and you're like, no, it's a mistake and you owned it. We make mistakes. The pace that we're training, the pace that we're doing this right, and there's no covering up. It's all open up there and it's the right dudes. You don't really need to beat that dead horse. He's going to do it off himself. He's going to hold himself really, really accountable for that and be pissed off and it's going to affect him. And then as good teammates, our job is to now bring him back to zero, right? Reset, like, hey, it's over. Stop living. Yeah, I know. I just shut the up, man. Like, we're past it. You're past it. Now we got to go forward.
- [58:37]
A
Yeah.
- [58:38]
C
And.
- [58:38]
A
And it's hard because all of us are, you know, we mess up. And you're like, damn it, man. I knew better than do that.
- [58:44]
B
And.
- [58:44]
A
And it is a hard thing to. To reset, but you're right. Like, we had Matt come out a couple weeks ago, and it was my practice. I was like, hey, man, I want you to come out, evaluate us. Because I hate. You know, when it's your practice, you're like, well, shit, I'm setting everything up. I don't get to run with the guys. And I think it's good to have outside people come in and evaluate that. And that was one of those things, too. I like what you said, Matt, is like, hey, man, what I'm doing, being the instructor, it's easy. You're doing the hard part because you're the ones that are doing this and doing that. I know what I set up. I know what I'm looking for and everything. Like, you don't know. You have no idea when you come in there. But I think that's a good thing. And it is good to have outside people come in and evaluate you, to give a perspective that maybe you don't have or to give you some things to go, hey, what about this? And then as a team, go, hey, yeah, you know what? This is where we need to work on. This is where we did pretty good. This is where we didn't do very well. This is where, hey, you know what, guys? There's all skill set levels here. Hey, we know where we need to work with some of these guys. With some of these guys have it, some of them don't, and they need to be trained up to it. So I think that's another part of just as a team, evaluating things like that, you know, that.
- [59:53]
B
That.
- [59:53]
A
That's important. So I do appreciate that, because you did it in a really good way. Hey, I don't. I have no emotional attachment because this is not my team. And I think that's a good way to look at it, you know?
- [60:03]
B
Well, Don, I appreciate it, and I appreciate, you know, y' all asking me to do it again. It's not hard to set up runs.
- [60:08]
A
I mean, that.
- [60:09]
B
That's easy, you know, it. To be able to bring up, you know, certain things and all that. But the good part about it was, is that, you know, vast majority guys I know pretty well. Yeah. So I can say, hey, Brandon, what about this? That, and everybody just. Just Talk like, hey, it's very matter of fact. And it, it goes to your level of professionalism as a team to have somebody come in that's willing, you know, or that you're willing to let come in and see you potentially at your worst. Like, you're going to be. You're going to get exposed. And believe me, if you set up runs for Dallas SWAT 10 runs, there's gonna be one of them where we're like, man, that was a total bomb. Like, we should all just be kicked out here. That's how bad that run was, or whatever. But that's fine because. And I think, you know, ask Matt about this. When you have confidence in what you're doing, you put in the effort, you've trained, and you. Not to sound pompous, but they're like, look, I know I worked hard to try to really do this. I think we're capable of doing this. We can, we can absorb that hit, hear what you have to say, take it in, conceptualize it. And I think good teams can do that almost on the fly. Like, we can do that. You can go set up another run real quick. Like, okay, we screw that up. Brandon, don't ever effing do that again. Don't do this, do that. You know, that's a piece of, you know, whatever. Like, okay, copy that. Just re rack this thing's going there and get it down. Okay, good job, everybody. You know, that was. That. That's what, that's what it's supposed to look like. And being then you don't rest on that one either. Here comes the next run, and here comes the next run. And I see what people have to do is that they've turned into a matter of saying, you know, we have a bad run. Well, then they, they shield up. Like, I don't want to. I don't want anybody to imper, you know, penetrate my, my suit of armor because we messed up. Well, if you, if you haven't messed up, I tell people, then you haven't run enough ops, because you will. Because I'm here to tell you, I run my share of them. And I still, like, man, I was a little too far left on that or a little more right? Or I was slow or I was a little ahead and.
- [61:58]
A
Or how did I not see that?
- [61:59]
B
And when you have a large team, a lot of, A lot of experienced guys, there's very little doesn't get noticed. You know, guys pick up on stuff, and you're just almost waiting for somebody to come around and go, that's on me, you know, like, yeah, I saw that. You know, whatever. You're just. But, like, your point. Hey, you owned it and all that, because don't think we. But at the same time, I've done it. That's how I know you're doing it wrong. Because I've done it wrong. That makes sense.
- [62:19]
C
Oh, yeah, yeah. And I also think how you, you know, how you set conditions for training are really important, especially when. When we're talking about, you know, tactics, training. Right. Like, to me, I don't. I think there's. There needs to be times where we're almost welcoming failure because we are training hard, we're training realistically. Right. It can't. If it's always zero sum, you know, we. We're not willing to accept defects, then the outcome is going to be skewed. Right. Like you said, when a guy shields up, like, I just don't want to see anyone make me a mistake. So he's going to be hesitant. He's going to be, you know, you'll see him. Guys position themselves in the house where they are not going to be the ones making decisions up front or pushing the fight. So it's like, look like I was always under it. If I want mistakes to happen in the house. Right. I want to see them. I want you. I want you to make a mistake and see it. That's the only way that people learn. That's why we're out here training. Yeah. Now when we're there as a team, it's like, yep, make mistakes, own them. Now, if you keep making the same mistake over and over, we've got to have a discussion about that. But in terms of the pace we're training, how we're pushing it, what we're trying to develop in terms of all of this hard skills on, you know, introduced into a ttp, then mistakes are going to happen. But we make those mistakes in the house, so we don't make them on real objectives. Then when you get the troop together and it's more than one team, like, all right, guys, now we're demonstrating in our little bit bigger group that we can perform this at a very high level. We're building confidence in us. More importantly, we're building trust and confidence with the other teams that when we're coming into our side, they know we're not going to fuck up and we're going to do our piece of this. Right. Mistakes will still happen, but then it's team internal, you know, teams taking care of themselves. Then you come together with three other troops. Now we're doing something in terms of like a capability or a readiness exercise. That is when it's like now we're showing the commanders what this force can actually do at speed. No fail, zero defect. Right. And we, that's where we don't want to see the same mistakes or we're not, we're not necessarily willing to have those things be okay.
- [64:42]
B
But you paved that road earlier by making those mistakes.
- [64:45]
C
By making them.
- [64:46]
B
Yeah, that's what I think. That's where people, they don't see the end game. Like you will, you will, you will do this. Before I was watching a video is, you know, Mike Trout, he's a, he's a great baseball player, plays for the Angels. He's a generational talent and he was out there and he was telling the D and bp, he goes, put it right here, I'm having trouble hitting this ball. And he was having those, his pitchers like throw the ball at a certain distance, you know, a certain spot because he wanted to work on it. Like, you know, he's like, he's considered one of the best of all time or of this generation. And yet there he is at working on that little thing because you, and that's, that's why he's great. That's what great. Obviously he has talent. He's in the major leagues, he's there. He has ability that most of us don't possess, but yet there he is out there going even that much further, you know, and that's the reason why he's one of the best.
- [65:30]
C
And that's. You see that where, where guys training, you know, on their own. Right. And I see it with a lot of different officers, the departments aren't going to get you there, your team's not going to get you there. Right. You can't rely on just when that training set up. And I'm sure even as a full time team, right. You're the first thing that's going to get cut is training. Absolutely right. Because operational stuff takes priority. You know, you're not going to, if you, if you have a, if you have a thing like, hey, we're going to either cut out training or we're going to cut out this administrative requirement. Training's gone because we got to make the machine run at of that. So you rely heavily on, you know, just like guys, you know, maintaining their physical readiness and their physical shape, you rely heavily on that guys are doing at least some amount of work, whatever that looks like, whether it's hard skill work, I think even three or four guys talking, sitting around, you know, drinking a beer and then conceptualizing and discussing and debriefing stuff. Or. Or now what if, hey, this is what I do. This is. This is my piece of this assault. This is what I saw.
- [66:34]
B
Yeah, right. My crew had you for two days. You're not going to make elite warriors in two days. Right. You're trying to give us data points and things to, you know, and, you know, objectives to work on, like, but yet, if we never revisit what you told us, are we going to be any better? We had you for those two days. No. A year from now, you come back, we don't do any of them. It was, it was just waste of time and ammo. Right. But that's just like anything, whether it be a debrief or a hot wash on some training, like when I was doing with those guys or doing training with, like, you take that. We're all running little notes and we had, you know, I had a little steno pedal back here making nose down. And what was funny is some guys wrote down some. Almost the exact same thing, like, oh, what you had said. We wrote that down as something to go back and revisit later and that I think that's what, you know, what I consider professionals. You're going to do that. You're going to take that in and we're going to sit down next week. We already talked about it. We're going to sit down next week, we're going to have a good hour or two talking about the last week with you and how do we take those things, good, bad and indifferent. Advance that going forward because that's what you're supposed to do. No, no class you ever go into will. Will make you a master of anything.
- [67:43]
C
No. And I think there's also that, you know, from what I. The competitive guys that, that we would bring in that have the ability to shoot with, you know, and that's. I mean, we would have five days with a guy where you're shooting individuals, shooting 7,000 rounds in five days. Like, it's a lot of shooting.
- [68:01]
B
Yeah.
- [68:01]
C
You know, to ramp it up. But even then, like, no one is getting appreciably better during that training. You're. You're working on things and concepts that now you're able to take with your team or with yourself and try to implement those in your own training and figure out how. What works, how do you mold it to fit, you know, your need. But I believe that firmly, like, no one gets appreciably better in a two or three day course.
- [68:28]
A
Well, there's been things that I've heard since I first started my shooting journey
- [68:33]
C
of
- [68:35]
A
that I'm just now catching or understanding like, well, I've heard that, but I heard it from this person's perspective because they worked on it and they got to the level where they, the light bulb came on for them. So they were able to tell me about this in this training, but I didn't understand it like I do now. Man, I see that a lot. Just within, within my training of, oh man, that light bulb finally came on. Okay, so now I gotta work on this next light bulb to come on. There's, there's always these light bulb moments that, that you continue to have with that.
- [69:10]
C
And I, I think we're a big takeaway that for courses at least the way that I do course is I want guys to. It's like you're pushing them over a cliff, right. They're just, they're gonna start rolling and rolling and rolling. They're gonna pick up speed. But at some point you're setting conditions where exploration, like self exploration of what you're doing is how you train. Right. It's. I can tell you the words, this is what I did, this is what I found worked for me. Right. And those are, I would say like that's a value level of one. Yeah, right. Understanding, like this was how I trained. Right. That's way more valuable. Right. It doesn't matter. We're all going to hold the gun differently. We're all going to have different ideas about that. You try to bring that stuff out in terms of exploration, I think, you know, me and Ben both call it, we do awareness exercises. Right. This, you're not going to ever train this again. You may take it and go visit, but this is an exercise we do to show you, you know, have you understand your connection to the rifle and how, how you should change it or if you should change it. Yeah, right. Because I think that's one of the, those awareness drills that we've been doing is the biggest thing I see the benefit is that guys are doing and they, and then they're like, I didn't even realize I was doing that. Yeah. Or with the rifle it's like almost across the board. Like everyone's like, I'm holding the gun too tight. Like I am just muscling this thing around and I don't need to. Yeah, right. And then you tie that into, you know, the vision discussions about what we're doing and where you're looking visual control, visual discipline and all of that stuff. And. But it keeps going back to like this awareness thing. Like, are you aware of what's happening and when it's happening? Yeah. And that's the, that's the real important thing that I think in a course that you can cue, cue people into is when the mistake happens. They felt it. Yeah. And now you keep making that mistake, but now you, at least you felt it, you know how to fix it.
- [71:12]
A
Yeah. Well, I think I called you up the other day and we were talking and you're like, hey man, next time you do this, just when the red is hit, hits the brown, just, just go. Try to get in the 4 second range and go fast and you'll start figuring it out. And I'm like, okay, I remember that. And sure enough, man, I did it. The last time I was training, I'm like, holy, man. And then I was able to, quote, slow it down to shoot my vision and I was like, damn, man, that was fast. That was.
- [71:44]
C
Wow.
- [71:44]
A
I had no. But then I started understanding the whole time sequence. It was just playing, playing in the background. But I understood it, I felt it and I knew it. And it was like, okay, that's what I text you. Like, man, maybe you know what you're doing, man, after all taking this long,
- [72:00]
B
you know, to finally listen to. Yeah.
- [72:01]
C
I'll tell you, that's the, that's like the, it's the simplest thing. Like everybody stresses about the 40 yard line and CQB warm up. Yeah. And it's like you want to not stress about it. Force yourself to shoot it in four seconds. Yeah, yeah. Like it's, it's completely doable. Right. I demo it all the time. Yeah. It's like. But that becomes. Okay, you know, you can move it. The work on training is can you get acceptable hits? Can you shoot 50 alphas? Right. I'll take two Charlie. Two Charlie, drop to the prone two Alpha, two Alpha all day long in four seconds. Yeah. Hit factor wise, it works out great. And then when you shoot it under the part, time six seconds is like you'll be able to shoot that thing. And then you checked your mag, your gun slung, and you're relaxing when you hear the second beep go off. Yeah. Like it's just, it's that, it's the whole premise. Like you want to get really good at driving 150 miles an hour, drive 200. You just got to set conditions in your own training where it's okay for it to not be perfect. And it's, it's for the sake of exploration and you're pushing it. You should be uncomfortable, I think.
- [73:04]
A
Yeah.
- [73:04]
B
Did you have something you. I think there's a segue into something. I was going to bring video. Something else. No, go ahead, man. Well, you Talking about the 150, 200 miles an hour and this. We knew you and I were talking about this going back to like the, the shootings. Like, you know, you were talking about the data points and all that. And I get asked that a lot. Like, well, what was the, like, was it daytime? Was it nighttime? Was it all these, they're looking for all these little, you know, nuances or factors that come into play. And I'm like, we run them from early morning to late night and everything in between. Like the vast majority of them are during the daytime. Just because that's just the way the world works. But we've done it at all times. And what happens is, is that they're looking for, like you said, well, if, if you can do it fast at 6:30 at night when it's getting dark, you know, in the, in the, in the wintertime, or you can do it at 10am should it really matter? It's kind of like. No, it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you see, when you hear people ask, well, the part times or how you have. That relates to being a bill and they would do an entry and doing an operation, like if you're training at a certain speed or an acceptable level, like it all just kind of turns into. To gray. Right. Like you're just, you're all that stuff works. This I guess is. It works itself out because you're doing all these things. Right. All that superfluous stuff just kind of fades away, I guess. Does that make sense?
- [74:25]
A
Her realist stuff. Look at you, man. Wow.
- [74:27]
B
I looked that up right before I came on Matt. Well, it took me like over an hour to get it in. Yeah.
- [74:34]
C
Yeah.
- [74:34]
B
But does that make, you know. It does.
- [74:36]
C
And it's, it's the, it's the train, you know, the training. Experience it in training. Right. And you're at a very high level and you're able to perform. Right. And it's, you've developed that skill and then when you apply, introduce that into any technique or TTP or your actual like application or your job, it just runs in the background.
- [74:56]
B
Right.
- [74:56]
C
You just, you're not having to think
- [74:58]
B
about all these apps are running the background. I think that's because people are looking for that, that that golden key to unlock everything that makes the opera. And it's like it's not. If it was, somebody would have already made it and sold out. Like it would have happened.
- [75:12]
C
Everybody wants the, the Ozembic of training, right? Like what can I, Yeah, I don't want to the Oz. I like going to the gym, but I, I'm not going to eat. Right. Right. And I, you see it all the time. It's like I want to be, I want to shoot fast and be good at all these tactics. It's like, okay, it's. You got to go to the range and work on it. Right. It's the shooting part is the diet, the working out is, you know, or the going to the gym. That's the tactic side of it. But it's what you do when you're not doing that that feeds into it. And I don't think there, there is no easy button and there's also. There's no secret anything. No, that's.
- [75:53]
B
It's the day to day grind. Right? That's what it is. And you know, we have a lot, a lot of people reach out about to us or the command about dynamic and running warrants and the, the rate of success and it's like, do you think that just happened? Like one day we went in there and just picked it up with the quartermaster and said, hey, this is how we're going to do things. Like that was going on when I got there. It was going on when the guys that were the senior guys when I got there, they were doing that for a long time. Like that it is baked in. All those years of the range in the shoot house and you know, in debriefs and running ops, all that is baked in. Like you cannot pick it up on Instagram or a three day class and people look for that. And Brandon, I've had these discussions. The guys will come to classes. They're like, Matt, how do I get my, our team to be able to run this? I was like, you should not be running this. You know, not for. I think you and I talked about this in the training. You, you're a 12 month out, you know, at the minimum, like if you decided today and had approval, do this. But they don't want that. It's, it's, it's like, well, I want. And like look, I, I appreciate the enthusiasm but you have to be realistic. Even if you were switched on, ready to go and you could do it does not mean everybody else is. But they hate on you when you say that because you're like, well, I'm. Like you asked. I'm trying to help you. I'm telling you. Because if you do this and you go out and screw it up, you'll never get it back and you'll ruin it for everybody.
- [77:10]
C
You won't. Yeah, you want, you want to build, you want to build a 10,000 square foot house, but you want to build it on sand. Put the money, put the time, put the, you gotta build the foundation. Right. That cement's gotta cure. It's gotta be hard before you start, before you put the first board up on it.
- [77:28]
A
Yeah.
- [77:29]
C
And people don't see that. Right. Because that is not one, it's not the answer. Like from, from a training industry perspective that doesn't. Hard work does not sell. Like, what's your product like? Hey, you guys need to work your ass off on this. Yeah. Right. That's, that's how you're going to get better. No, no, no, no, no.
- [77:47]
B
Swap right by you.
- [77:48]
C
I want you to tell me how to get better.
- [77:49]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [77:50]
C
You got to work.
- [77:51]
A
Yeah.
- [77:51]
C
It's going to take a lot of effort, right? And it's going to take resources to do and it's going to take, you know, your own time and your, your own effort are the two biggest resources. Then you're going to have to find a little bit of ammo somewhere to shoot to, kind of test all this stuff. Yeah, but I've seen, I've seen guys evolve, you know, over the last couple years. You know, one guy specifically that I talk with all the time, and he is working his ass off and he did it. He was having a hard time joining a club, couldn't even find a range to shoot in Pennsylvania. And I'm still watching his video after video and he'd send them to me and I would like, hey, think about this, think about this. And then he's, he's taken his concealment stuff and he's applying it to boxing. He's like, you know, high level, got some boxing, high level boxing training. So he already has hands. He already understands about training in isolation. He already understands about suffering, right. And he applies all that to this gun stuff. Before he shot his first live round at his club, right? He already had a year of skin. People are like, how the hell did you get so good? And it's like work, right? That was it. There was no secret, right? And you, you watch his first video and watch a video now and it's like he's doing the same thing. He's just, he's executing it where it's technically near perfect at very, very high aggression and performance levels. But he did that by consistent, constant work. Right. And he dove into it and he kind of submitted to, hey, this is the process. Right. I'm not outcome focused on process focused. And now I have to be excited about the process. And none of that as a product for a training company or training industry sells well. You know, it's like, no, I need, I need to know the science words for why I'm not doing well. Right. I need to learn that to go, to do it better. And, and what I've learned is at the, at the highest level, like when we're training, we are not having scientific discussions about how to get better. No. At least, you know, I never have in my continue. We don't have it, it. You know, it's like we work on things. We work, we deal in concepts and deal in principles and, and then grind on those things. It's not like, it's not, it's not a natural ability. Right. I've, I had for years. I said, well, you just, you can naturally pull the trigger faster. It's like, well, you notice how when you come into work at 7 o', clock, I'm already here every single day because I'm doing a lot of that. You don't see.
- [80:30]
A
Yeah. That you.
- [80:30]
C
Yeah, right. That I'm doing it in isolation by myself. It's, it's my thing that I'm doing. Right. And then you're seeing the result of it and you're telling me that this is a natural skill.
- [80:40]
A
Yeah.
- [80:41]
C
Now this is, this is 10 hours a week of consistent work doing that, that I'm trying to crush. And, and that's what it takes.
- [80:48]
B
Yeah.
- [80:48]
C
You know, but, and, and to be honest with you, like the reality of the situation is that like police officers or people who carry guns for a living do not need to possess really high level of skill to solve their problems with that tool. Right. Either operation or whatever. I think, you know, if, if the average, like if the, if the average cop shooter could be a B class shooter.
- [81:16]
A
Yeah.
- [81:17]
C
Right. In terms of, you have to have some sort of classification on it and people know USPSA a B class shooter, they would all look like rock stars.
- [81:25]
A
Yeah. It would be a game changer.
- [81:27]
C
It would be. Right. And it's, and it's very easy to achieve, you know, for civilians with, with very, very little work. Yeah. Right. But they have to have, they have to be one. They have to have the desire to want to improve Right. It's just like getting into shape. If you don't want to get in shape. No. No amount of world class programming and,
- [81:48]
B
you know, supplements will make it.
- [81:51]
C
Yeah, yeah. There's not, you know, you can't take your soremalin pill and be on TRT and. And all of that, and then you're just somehow gonna get jacked.
- [81:59]
A
Yeah.
- [82:00]
C
At some point you need to start working. Right. And then you have to work super hard at it. Right. You have to be uncomfortable for most of the time that. That you're doing it. And, and shooting's no different. It's. Guys know this. Like SWAT guys know this from.
- [82:15]
B
Yeah.
- [82:15]
C
Physical training.
- [82:16]
A
Yep.
- [82:17]
C
But they don't apply the same metric to shooting. And to me, that's always been. That's always been odd. Like when you try to draw the. Like, why don't you treat it the same way?
- [82:27]
B
I think it goes to tactics too. And we. This another discussion is that it's like they want it to be prescribed to them. Nope. I was supposed to go here because the last run, Matt, you told me I need to go here. Well, that was fine because the suspect was here or the hostages were there. And then when you change it on them and then when you critique them or say, hey, there's probably a better way of doing this, they get, you know, because they do want the easy button. They want. You know something, it is like, I'm sorry, you will not, you will not get any better. If you're looking for a preconceived flight path on how to solve the problem inside this house, it will not happen. That's what they want. And that's what you're seeing. This training. Not to. Here's another segue. This is what you're seeing. Some of these training groups and these guys getting out of the mill or whatever that they're. They're just, they're imprinting these flight paths on these guys. Like, just do this every time and it'll work out for you. And like, it will not work out.
- [83:18]
A
And you.
- [83:19]
B
I show you the room. That. That will not work.
- [83:21]
C
Yeah.
- [83:21]
B
And they're like, oh, no, no. I'm like, okay, I think.
- [83:23]
C
I think it's it. I call it Rolodex training. Yeah, right. It's like, well, this is how I handle this situation. They write that down. They put it in the Rolodex, and then they're. And then they're like, oh, well, what if this. Oh, you do that. This is the answer for that. This is the answer for that. So you don't understand the concept of what we're trying to do inside this room. You don't understand the, the, the tactic that we're using. Right. And where the outcome needs to be. Because there's a lot of different, you know, I get it. Efficiency. The, the shortest path between two points is a straight line. Right. But there's a lot of different ways to get to those two points based off variables that present themselves. But you have to understand, like, what the, what are we, you know, conceptualize, like, what are we trying to do? Right. How do we dominate this room? How do we win this fight?
- [84:11]
A
Yeah.
- [84:12]
C
And, and that's the real understanding of it that you can't give someone the answer to.
- [84:16]
A
Yep.
- [84:16]
C
It goes into, like, it's, it's reps, it's time under tension. It's seeing many, many situations. Right. And just there's no one answer. Like I would say for, for most situations that I've seen in cqb, there's not just one answer.
- [84:32]
A
There's. There's several different forms of that because you watch like a team run and they run, quote the same tactic. And, and three teams can do the same scenario three different ways. And they're all, they all can be, right. The way they ran. Well, one guy, he did this. And so that way, this guy did this or this guy did this. And it worked out because they were, they were then their TTP of doing it. But no one was sitting there saying, hey, man, you got to do it this way every single time, you know, or even planning things. We were talking earlier last week on the phone, and you were saying you're working with some guys and you're like, hey, we started out working, we wanted to do perfect, like Schoolhouse cqb. And then we bumped it up to, now we're doing this and we're running faster, but we're working on. There was a method to the madness. And, and it's the same kind of thing, like when you do CQB on a live hit, it's not going to be picture perfect. It's not going to be perfect.
- [85:26]
C
No, it's not. And there's, there's too many variables in there. But when we, like, like I focus on the training side of it, and that's where it's like, I can, I can talk to you about how to be technically perfect.
- [85:40]
B
Yeah.
- [85:40]
C
And why we're hard on. You know exactly where your point is. You know exactly the distance, how much off the wall, how these sectors of fires look. And then when we're running, you know. You know, with that team, we were doing dry ones, and I'm harping on, like, I know. I know you think it doesn't matter to be one foot over to the left, but that's not technically perfect. And there's no stress now. There's no shit. There's nothing. So I need to see technical perfection. I need to see everyone understands where you're coming up in this room. That's how the fields of fire interlock. It's why this becomes as safe as it can be. And it's how. It's why this is a team event and not just one guy going in there, because we're all supporting each other. But it relies heavily that everyone is doing their piece. Right. And the first step, I think, is you have to be technically perfect. Like you. There's. There's no disputing that. And then once you're technically perfect, now we can start to add aggression in it. Right? We. We can start to add variables in there because I know you can execute it technically perfect. So now I need to see it. You do it at speed.
- [86:49]
A
Yeah.
- [86:49]
C
And then the conversations, like, with the whole dynamic thing, a lot of people are. Have a misunderstanding that dynamic CQB is running.
- [87:00]
A
Yeah.
- [87:01]
C
Or has really anything to do with how fast the individual is moving.
- [87:05]
A
Yeah.
- [87:05]
C
And I believe it's how fast everyone is going from task to task to task with no delay. Yeah.
- [87:12]
A
Yeah.
- [87:13]
C
Right. The efficiency, that's the dynamic piece of it. You know, it's. Is. I'll. You demo you do any training. Like, I'll go to do CQB training. And it always starts with a discussion. Right. What do you want to get out of this? Right. If they're like, well, we want to learn points of dimension, you got to call someone else. Right. There's. You're. I'm not the dude to do an overhaul of your tactic. How I like to train, you know, CQB with teams is what. What. What do you use? Right. You'd be surprised how many teams you come into that don't know how to articulate what they're doing.
- [87:47]
B
Oh, yeah, no, we've seen it. And then what they tell you is not even what they actually doing.
- [87:51]
A
Yes.
- [87:52]
B
Because it's a. It's a catchphrase. Right. It's out there. How many times we talked about that. And Brandon, I'll be sitting back, like what they said they run strong wall or point, whatever. Whatever they want to use. They don't like. It's not even close to that it's some kind of, you know, bastardized hybrid version of it. That somebody, that somebody that copied it and cut and paste. And I'm like, you know, and then y' all ask different teams or different guys in the same team and they'll give me totally two different answers. I'm like, well, there's no way you're going to win successfully over the long haul because you and Brandon are speaking two different languages on the same team.
- [88:24]
A
You're on the same team.
- [88:25]
B
Yeah.
- [88:25]
C
And it's.
- [88:25]
B
That makes sense.
- [88:27]
C
I always get put where they're like, do you know how to do this? Like, I know how to do all this. Like, that's by definition for me. That's what being an expert at something is. Yeah, right. You don't think it's not, you know, organizations I've worked at or we didn't do, you know, limpen as what's taught, but you don't think we didn't look at it.
- [88:49]
A
Yeah.
- [88:50]
C
And try like guys can't execute it.
- [88:52]
B
Highly aware of what it is.
- [88:53]
C
Yeah, yeah. It's like strong 100%. Can do that at speed with any doorway procedure you want and it can teach you back what it is. Like that is what having a PhD in this shit really is for 30 years. You know, it's like you're not going to bring something where it's like, no, I've never even heard of that. Yeah, yeah, right. But what happens is, is guys will see a real flash picture or something. Right. Step center is one that's. That is very, very like the explanation of what that is is it's a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy. Right. And they're like, well, this is what so and so unit does. I don't think so. I don't think you have the understanding. And also how you're explaining this is wrong. That's not what, what you're, what you're saying and what you're doing are two different things. And also what you're doing is not what came out of range 37, 10 years ago, which they even understood that was confusing as hell. We're not going to teach this anymore. Right. And they removed it from, from, from what they teach. And it's, it's that thing. It's a copy of a copy of a copy. And then the guys that are promoting this and that are, are the loudest about it are the ones with the least experience. Yeah. You know, and it's, it's not, it's not mild dudes Doing it.
- [90:15]
A
Yeah.
- [90:15]
C
Right. It's coming from, like, former law enforcement guys, you know, and there's, you know, for whatever there's. I always look at like, hey, you are now running a training company. You were a cop for five or six years, right? You're on SWAT team for a couple years, and now you're running a training company. Like, there's a story there.
- [90:35]
A
Yeah. You always. That's always a big red flag. I'm like, so, yeah, you're on a SWAT team for two or three years, and now you retired, quote. I'm like, man, there is more to that story. And more times than not, there are like, you got kicked off the team, you left the department because you're gonna get some other crazy like that.
- [90:53]
C
It's also like, I don't. I honestly don't give a shit about people's backgrounds, and I don't think people should care about mine. Right? It's. I think what, what. What I'm the most is what can you actually do? Right. If you're. If you're gonna do. You're doing shit shooting and training content, or this is what you're doing. But what I see is low skill level.
- [91:17]
A
Yeah.
- [91:17]
C
Like, at what point, you know, why can't what you're selling be like a demonstration of how well you've trained yourself? Yeah, like, that's right. I think that's the best marketing thing. It's not a video. It's like, this is my system and this is what I can do.
- [91:33]
A
Can do.
- [91:34]
C
Right? Yeah. And it's. And there's all different levels to the shit, for sure.
- [91:38]
A
Well, going back to talking about kind of schoolhouse perfect CQB when you set up a couple runs for us, and one of the runs, one of my new guys went to the left, and he should have. He should have taken that door, but he stopped short of it. And then another guy did it, and both of them were newer guys. And then I watched a couple other runs. Same run, it was our senior guys, and they took care of the door, shot the. The bad guy and stuff. But it goes back to when we were talking about these new guys. They were wanting to run perfect CQB in a hostage rescue environment training scenario. I'm like, that's. We're not doing that. The guy's like, we're not doing that. Like, this is totally different now. We. You should know the rules. And now we're getting outside these rules because, man, we're having to do this. But it was funny watching that and then talking with the guys. And that was one of the things, like, hey, Matt, what was one of the big takeaways? He's like, hey, man, you know, some of these guys are just sticking with this was what I was told to do. And, like, so now we're having to discuss this with these new guys. Like, hey, this is when we're giving you the permission to. Let's go. Don't wait on us. Like, this is. This has to do that.
- [92:49]
B
Well, they want black and white. There's nothing against you, especially as a new guy. Hey, I was a new guy. I screwed plenty of stuff up. And they're like, you're an idiot. What do you do? You know? And I have people moving me around like, I've done it.
- [92:59]
A
Yep.
- [92:59]
B
But at the same time, that's the reason why I know that's wrong. Because I've been on. I've been that guy. And I think that to your point, man, that's what. That's where the experience comes from, you know? You know, people don't care about. With your background. But, like, one of the. One of the things we talked. We wrote up about the HR training is like, look, you know, there are a lot of people out there that are promoting that they can teach you a hostage rescue or go over stuff with you. Be careful about where you spend your money and who you bring in. Because I, I. Not to name names, but I was. I was asked to go to observe a class. A guy was probably brought in. He was a meal guy. That's not to pick on meal guys. But anyway, he was just putting this thing out. And like, within two hours, everybody in that class was like, this is the worst class I've ever been to. And the guy put himself off as really knowing a lot of this stuff. And what happened was people would ask him just legitimate questions like, hey, how does this compare to this? What's your thoughts on this? And he would just be like, well, just. That's just dumb. Just don't do that. Like, yeah, people will not take that answer very long. And if they're. If they have any inkling of what they're talking about, they should. You probably have an idea, like, how that. How does that dovetail into what I'm talking about here? Like, here. Because you've seen, like you said, I can run any CQB you want. The reason why I don't run that is because I know it's not good, or I know it has limited applications or whatever. That's the reason. Not that you don't know how to do it. And I think that's, they don't, they don't differentiate between those two.
- [94:19]
C
Yeah.
- [94:20]
B
You know what I mean? And that's. And so.
- [94:21]
C
Yeah, yeah, I think too, there's a, you know, it's. I can, I can make a video, I can sit here on a pod and I can be whatever I want to be. It's the Internet.
- [94:31]
A
Yeah.
- [94:32]
C
You know what? I like, I am an expert at this. And then now when you're, you're standing with actual bonafide gun professionals that do it for a living, right? It's like, you better have like all your ducks in a row. You better have the experience that, that you're promoting that you have. Because again, like, the questions were like, the, the first two days we're working, there are guys that, you know, Joe was asking, he was asking phenomenal questions about stuff because of things that he wanted to talk about, things that I probably never would have talked about in the course, you know, and it's training ideas and concepts and it's the same, you know, you, you, you better be able to speak to it. You better be up. But I speak to that stuff about my firsthand first person experience in my own training journey and what I've done. So it's when I, if I dismiss something where it's like, no, that's stupid. Yeah, okay, I'm gonna say that, but I'm going to explain it, right. As to why this is, for instance, why this has happened. This is my firsthand actual experience with this. And these were the pitfalls and these were the outcomes. And that's why I don't think it's good. Yeah, right. And a lot of guys, I don't think they can do that on the, the training side of it. Yeah, absolutely.
- [95:55]
B
Well, going back to them to your point, you had a couple guy, the newer guys didn't snap on that, you know, that doorway and that when we have some issues. And then the next couple runs, the guys, same run, different crew, didn't have any idea. There's all organic to them. They all did it just right. And so it was the same team, different guys doing different things. So it's not like you go. Because if you just took a flash picture of the first two runs, like, well, these guys are screwed up. They don't have any idea what they're doing. They're shit or all this. But then you watch the next two runs, the guys did it exactly what they're supposed to do. So it is not a, A team. You Know, failing it is on an individual level, this guy was unaware of what that scenario is. And that's where I think that a lot of teams. Teams don't come in and go, hey, you. Here's the reason why, ABC. 1, 2, 3. Because I think Diva was the first one that came in and got it. Or was it. Was it Sean? Yeah, he did that. I'm like, here's the reason why it worked here. Yep.
- [96:52]
C
Y'.
- [96:52]
A
All.
- [96:52]
B
Y' all came in the same room, same scenario. Nothing changed. Here's where. Here's where it went wrong for y' all and went right for him and did this. And it was almost every. Like. Oh, it was just, you know, like that light went off. But the guys that can't cross reference those. Yeah. You know, and that's what I think a lot of guys are getting because they're hungry for. Did I hunt. They're hungry for. For. For. For help. They're getting it, but it's not the right kind of help. And then they get. They're left unfulfilled. And so they're reaching out, and it's
- [97:20]
C
like eating Chinese food.
- [97:22]
B
You can't get enough.
- [97:23]
C
You're hungry. 20 minutes later, you're like, damn, man,
- [97:27]
B
I'm going to use that in the next class. I'm going to steal that one. So that's pretty good. Yeah, but.
- [97:33]
A
And you're real big, too, Matt, when. With cqb, that, hey, the. The shooting should already be there.
- [97:40]
C
I believe you're real big on that
- [97:41]
A
and accountability and shooting and in paper targets. Hey, we need to be accountable for this. It's five yards away. Come on.
- [97:49]
C
Yeah, it's. It's got to run. Guys that. That needs to be, like, on autopilot for. For officers, for guys that are. That have that as a. As a requirement for their profession. Like, you need to realize, like, this. This fight is going to be fast as shit. Yeah. Right. It's gonna. It's. It's measured in fractions of a second.
- [98:08]
A
Yep.
- [98:09]
C
You know, and you. And then in terms of delivery, think of the rifle, the confined space. Everyone's around. You have to be absolutely perfect where these rounds go. Right. You can't. You can't be clearing towards teams or drywall walls and send an errant shot or even send a shot through. Not the. You know, the thickest part of the target where you want. Right. You got to make them go where. Where you want them to go. Because as we all know, just like, bullets going through glass. Bullets hit anything. They do weird things yeah, they do. They go in arms and they come out 90 degrees and go into the opposing corner. That's why we, you know, there's so much effort put into the, at probably the rounds that you shoot what you're taking into the house in terms of the right penetration and this is going to get us the effects and then that level or you know, commitment to developing skill and understanding and trust that you have where now I can have an officer standing here, an officer standing, you know, in the opposing corner with a suspect sort of in the middle. And I know that they're going to get it done. Yeah, right. And it's, that's why I think it's like you look at that, that'd be like the absolute worst case of something. You know, in reality, I think that problem gets solved much, much sooner than that. But that's the absolute worst case. Which is why you see it with newer guys. You know, they're, they're going there, they're, they're thinking about where they're supposed to stand, thinking about the technique, the procedural things that they have to do. And then all of that's running. Now they're stressing out to take this four foot shot on the move on a photographic target with a Sims rifle. It's like we got to go back like we're cart before the horse a little bit.
- [99:55]
B
Yeah.
- [99:55]
C
You know, we got to go back to the range. We got to do things on the range to get you comfortable operating at a really high level. And then most importantly, what I'm a big believer in, I've got to tie in what happens on the range with what I want to happen in the house. Right. If those two things are disconnected in terms of speed, performance, accuracy. Right. I'm not doing the best thing. Yeah. For training. And then, and then the only real discussion is like, what's the best thing? I mean that's, you get as creative as you want. You know, I tell everybody, like I believe in daylight, you know, CQB training distances are 20, 30 and 40 meters. Yards, whatever. Yeah, yeah. What would they say? We, we shoot in yards, but we brag in meters. But those are my mind, that's where I'm stressing foundational skills where I'm shooting 3 yards, 5 yards or 5, 7 and 10 yard pace at 20 and 30 and 40. And because now I'm actually stressing fundamentals, it's going to look different, the training, it's going to be harder. But I'm trying to tie cause and effect together, build awareness on on what I'm doing at very high levels of speed. So when I come up to five, you know, we all know shooting a rifle at five yards, I really don't have to do anything. Well yeah, you know, I don't have to have a good connection. I don't, the, it's. The bullets aren't really going to go much outside of the scorable zone. Yeah. But if you go back to 20 and now you shoot that, shoot that five yard pace at 20 in terms of doubles or bills, drill or triples or any type of engagement sequence, now you start to see I better. I got to do everything right. Yeah, right. I've got to have the vision under control. I've got to be disciplined. I have to have the right connection. I have to let the gun do its thing. I need to not influence it unduly with, you know, applying pressure while I'm in the shoot. Like all of those things.
- [101:53]
A
Or do the cool Instagram. I'm coming in and you know, button hook, hooking left and got my gun off my shoulder and do that at 40 yards.
- [102:03]
C
And to me, you know, that's the guy that. Right. You're, you're in a bar, you're pushing. You guys sign the social contract, we're gonna go out and fight. Yeah, right. The guy that comes in with the gun over his shoulder is the guy that goes out into the parking lot and pushes me. We're past this, bud.
- [102:20]
A
Yeah.
- [102:20]
C
Like, yeah, please do that. Right. You've created a seam now that I will exploit and just feed you my will for the next 30 or 40 seconds. Yeah. And that's the thing, like if I'm, if you go, you're entering that room. Right. I'm always entering a room, rounding a corner. Anything where I think I'm chasing somebody, I expect that guy is going to be standing on the other side. You're right. So be ready for it. And then just backwards plan it like what's the best way to be ready? And I get it. Guys will say well you know, you could shoot at this distance like that. Yeah. Can you discriminate at that distance at that speed? Right. The gun is collapsed. There's no other place where we do that. And I have yet to see anybody on the range taking shots with the gun over their shoulder. No to practice it. And I know for me like shooting a pistol from the hip and it's not for sake of not ever trying this extensively, but I am horrible at it it. Right. I cannot hit. Some dudes can just dunce plate racks like, yeah, Taryn Butler from the hip. I'm like, nope, yeah, not me.
- [103:30]
B
Well, I would just say in the training that we do have a lot of guys coming in from out of town wanting to, you know, would be the ttpa, advanced SWAT, whatever or our hr. I'm always amazed and I lead off of this like, how, okay, you've been on the team year, two years. How often have you done, you know, a carbine class or a hostage rescue class or. And almost, almost none of them ever do, you know, or never have. And they're just like, well, they haven't sent me to it. And so like, okay, how long you been on swat? I've been there for a year. Okay, what class did you go through? What have you been through? What training? I went through basic SWAT and because I'm a gas guy, I went through a 40 millimeter gas lith lease or three day school. Okay, and so in a year time, what have you gone through? Basically a swat and then a 40 millimeter three day gasless, lethal school.
- [104:13]
A
Check the boxes, check the box.
- [104:14]
B
But yeah, you work for department A, but department B had the basic SWAT school. So you went through with them and you did their CQB or whatever it is. You know where the training is. And yet you go back and integrate with your guys and they're like, I have never been through a week because for us we have a three day carbine class just for SWAT guys. And they come over after they're selected and they're like, well now I want to patrol rifle on the department. Like we don't have a carbine. We don't have any kind of performance or advanced. I hate to use the word advanced, but you know what I mean, something other than the basic. And they're like, no. And so then you have guys, I've been there. We had a guy from a department, he had been on the SWAT team for 18 years. That was his first documented hostage rescue training he's ever been to in 18 years.
- [105:00]
C
I believe it.
- [105:01]
B
Yeah, in every time we do this, I'm like, why am I still surprised by this? But the last class we did, other than the, the guys that applied with us that were wanting to go through it because they want to get selected, get a chance to be here, seen by us, everybody. 100% of the outtown guys had never been through an HR school and yet some have been on their team seven, eight years. And it's the same guys that never go seek out the cut your butt. But the training they're not seeking anything out. And so they're just, man, they're just so far behind the curve.
- [105:30]
C
I see it with, with, with tons of cops where they're, you know, swat, not, you know, patrol. It's, it's like, hey, what are you. What are you doing to get better with your pistol? What are you doing to get better with your rifle? Yeah. And if that sentence starts with we, well, we shoot or they, they have a shoot that you're wrong.
- [105:49]
A
Yeah.
- [105:49]
C
What are you doing? Right? You're like, hey, I'm trying to dry fire two times a week. Good. That's a good start. Yeah, right. One time a week. One time for 10 minutes.
- [105:58]
A
Yeah.
- [105:59]
C
You know what I mean? Just get up, do. Do 10 minutes of not something. Right. Or do it while you're watching tv. Right. That will, if you're a patrol guy, like, right. Level three holster, just index. Learn to index from the draw.
- [106:13]
A
That's.
- [106:14]
C
Yeah, right. That's the critical skill that you, that you need. Right. Learn to get that gun out, you know, in as close to a second and a half from a level three holster as you can with the dot or sights arriving at what you're looking at lined up. Yeah, right. Or.in the center of the window. If you do that, you are light years ahead of where you are not doing that for the engagement that you will have. Yeah, right. When it presents itself, that is going to be a piece of it. Right. So learn that one skill.
- [106:44]
A
Yeah. Well, I think now with technology the way it is and all these body cameras getting out so fast, it's probably always been there. It's just we haven't had the influx of information videos that we have now. But there's. Every week it seems like there's an HR patrol situation that someone is shooting someone that's a hostage. And it's patrol base that's doing it. It's not SWAT teams that are doing it. I mean, so it. This is not just for swat. It's for anybody who's carry a gun, especially working the streets, man. You don't know what, what. When test days coming. You have no idea. And I'm seeing this. I mean, they had the one the other day that just came out. God had iron sights.
- [107:28]
B
Oh, the woman holding the woman.
- [107:29]
A
A hell. Yeah.
- [107:30]
B
Knife.
- [107:30]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, one shot dropped a guy did what he's supposed to do.
- [107:34]
B
Chick. Yeah. It was a woman. Yeah. That was a woman holding a woman.
- [107:37]
A
Yeah, that's right.
- [107:37]
C
Yeah.
- [107:38]
A
It's up. And that guy. I mean, I Don't know what his skill set is and, and all that, but I wish I knew more about that. That would be interesting to see what these guys that are doing, that are doing the good shoots and then ones that are spraying and praying.
- [107:52]
C
I mean, if you, if you watch that guy in that situation and his, his demeanor. Right. His confidence, the way that he's moving, the way he's holding the gun, how he's prioritizing, what he should be doing. Right. He's not on the radio.
- [108:07]
A
Not on the fucking radio.
- [108:09]
B
Radio.
- [108:09]
C
Gosh, all of that stuff, you know, would lead me to believe, like that dude is doing some training on his own.
- [108:17]
A
Yeah.
- [108:17]
C
Whether, you know, hard skills wise. I don't know what it looks like, you know, because it's, it's one shot.
- [108:23]
A
Yeah.
- [108:24]
C
But the ability with confidence, to deliver there with composure. Right. That's a guy that. We talked about this, you know, in the class. If you're overdeveloped. Hard skills, in my opinion, like when you look at application equals confidence. Confidence equals guys being patient to let the situation evolve or devolve to a point where they're absolutely right because they know that anything that happens, they can handle it.
- [108:51]
A
Yeah.
- [108:52]
C
Right. And there's, there's, there's no, there's no downside.
- [108:56]
A
Yeah.
- [108:57]
C
To it.
- [108:57]
A
Well, our guy from Washington state. What's his name, though?
- [109:01]
C
Chris.
- [109:02]
B
Yeah.
- [109:02]
A
Yeah. I mean, you watch his video where he shot that guy from 80 something yards.
- [109:06]
B
Cool comp.
- [109:07]
A
Sets his coffee cup up, gets out, gets in the back, gets his rifle out. Bam. Shoots and. Yeah.
- [109:13]
C
That was 168.
- [109:14]
A
Is that 100? Oh, damn.
- [109:16]
C
168 yards.
- [109:17]
B
I've seen that video.
- [109:17]
C
Unmagnified shot.
- [109:19]
B
Yeah.
- [109:19]
A
So he came to Matt's class right before that. That's how I met him. And then he's come to other classes. Then he started bringing guys down from the, to the conference and training from Tacoma. And then you look at his training pedigree. He trained with a lot of guys and he puts work in. It's like it wasn't just by accident, you know?
- [109:37]
C
No, he. Yeah, it's. He's. Yeah, he's good. He's well practiced. He's. He's into it. He's. He's putting forth a significant amount of effort.
- [109:46]
A
Yeah.
- [109:46]
C
On his own, you know, in terms of time. Right. I get it. I. I believe, like the departments are resourcing it, but I even think in one of them he either won or we. He was comped a slot. Right.
- [110:01]
A
Yeah.
- [110:01]
C
And then his department was still going to pay.
- [110:04]
A
Yeah.
- [110:05]
C
So he was like, give that to another guy.
- [110:07]
A
Yeah, he did.
- [110:07]
C
Like, I'm still coming, you know, and it's like, yeah, it's just. It's all the right thing, what dudes are doing.
- [110:14]
A
Yeah, I hooked him up with stuff and I'm like, dude, that's. That's the right attitude.
- [110:17]
C
I.
- [110:18]
A
And that's that. That. That's the guys. And like you said, that's the guys that are. That are changing law enforcement in the better. You know, I have a passion. You know, I think this podcast, to me, the way I look at it, it's not just shooting the shit. Yes, that's part of it. But there is. To me, this is a training tool. It's a valuable tool for guys to understand that maybe have never heard any of this stuff. Okay. Let me, Let me. Let me go down my own journey and stuff. I think it's important. That's why TTOA is so important to me, because we're. We're pushing guys to challenge themselves. And if you don't want to jump on the train, hey, man, someone else is sorry, man. Maybe you'll come around the next time the train comes back your station. Maybe you will maybe want. That ain't my issue. I'm giving you what. I'm what I feel like I should be giving you as a. As a member of this. Of this association.
- [111:06]
B
Well, you know, we. We can bad rap, guys. There are a lot of good dudes out there really trying to. We had three guys from Anchorage, Alaska, come to the HR class because they wanted to come down and hear what
- [111:16]
A
it was all about.
- [111:17]
B
That's a. That's a long haul from there to here and to do it, you know, and we had a guy free from Minneapolis. I had the two guys from Canada come down when I did the deal in San Antonio for James. Yeah, they. They wanted. They couldn't get in the class. They could never get signed up. So they came down there all the way to San Antonio just to hear what we had to say. I mean, that's effort. Yeah. You know, that's not. The department didn't make them do that. You know, they got approval for it, but those guys wanted to come down. They hit me up. They go, hey, can we come down and go to your eight? I'm like, dude, you absolutely can come down to ours class whenever you're ready. They go. And the problem was the department wouldn't let them sign up until they got approval. Well, by the time that class is already full.
- [111:51]
C
Yeah.
- [111:52]
B
So we, like, we. We just kind of held on to two spots for them on the side and got them into a class we did down in San Antonio, and they came all the way from where it was in Canada all the way to San Antonio to hang out with us for. For the week and do some training. It was great. And they're really good dudes, and they're. They. You can tell they've been trained and had a higher level, but they were seeking out other opinions and stuff like that, and that's what makes it worthwhile right there, to see guys that want to come in and. Not that they're trying to hear what you have to say, but they're just. They're trying to develop those better skills, you know? That was really cool, you know, And I say now that. But I was like, what's the weather like up there? It's cold because it was February. I was like, I cannot imagine being up there. Like, it's really cold back. We're down in San Antonio. It's like in the 50s. And they're like, this is perfect. I'm like, yeah, it was good. So.
- [112:33]
C
Yeah, no, it's. It's.
- [112:34]
A
Yeah. No conference next year. I think you already committed to it, right? That. We talked about that.
- [112:42]
C
Yeah. Yes. The. Yeah. The dates you sent me.
- [112:45]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [112:46]
C
So this one I'll be able to come to.
- [112:47]
A
Yeah, we'll be at the. I'm excited for that. We got some things that we were. We were talking about doing and stuff, so I'm excited. I think some. We haven't. We haven't announced it yet, but Matt kind of knows what we were talking about earlier as far as what the instructors are going to be able to do. So I think it's going to be exciting.
- [113:02]
C
Yeah. I think it's. I'm excited for it.
- [113:05]
A
Yeah.
- [113:06]
C
I got to figure out what you want me to teach. Do you want. I was thinking of like a. A tactical doorway, kinesthetic kata class. You know, just. It'll be like one day, 12 hours.
- [113:22]
A
Yes.
- [113:23]
C
All talking.
- [113:24]
B
Yeah.
- [113:25]
C
In kit.
- [113:25]
B
Yeah.
- [113:26]
A
In kits.
- [113:27]
B
You know, just by hour to see
- [113:29]
A
me, people just falling out.
- [113:30]
B
Just. You know, we'll have Adam there or Chris rather, videoing the whole thing.
- [113:34]
A
Yeah.
- [113:35]
B
Well, when we were at the conference, while I was doing my class, the. I saw the ambulance pull up, and I was like, oh, my God, what happened? That was the staccato class. The guy that.
- [113:43]
C
You know that.
- [113:44]
B
Oh, that.
- [113:44]
A
Yeah.
- [113:45]
B
And Lieutenant Dan walked in and goes, is none of us.
- [113:47]
A
Like, it was not ttpoa, guys.
- [113:48]
B
Yeah. I was like, thank God. You know, and when the. They had a. That. That injury in one of the ranges, and we saw the ambulance, and, you know when you're on the live fire, you see the animals pulling in with the lights, you're like, oh, my God. Watch what happened. And I walked down, talk to Lieutenant Dan, and he's like, nope, you're good. It's. It's none of us. Y' all just carry on. Just be careful.
- [114:04]
C
Like, thank goodness. It's. You never know what you're gonna get on the TTB. The 1. The 1 year I came, we were out there teaching.
- [114:11]
A
Yeah.
- [114:11]
C
Then all of a sudden, half the damn cops left. You're like, whatever. There's an active shooter.
- [114:18]
A
That's right.
- [114:18]
B
Three miles away.
- [114:19]
C
And then one guy comes back, he's like, I can't take the course anymore. I'm on, like, the lead. What happened? Well, I shot that dude.
- [114:27]
B
Well, two years ago, he was here with us. He and Ben. We had to leave to go do an hr. Missed half the day of training. And then the second day this. This year, we were late getting there because stuff. So it cut. It happens. You know, it comes up. You know, it's just what it is. So. No, but that's funny.
- [114:41]
C
But, yeah, I mean, that's the. It's the. The good and the bad part, right?
- [114:46]
B
About.
- [114:47]
C
It's always the gamble. I mean, even if would have completely fallen apart, like, you guys are out all. All day. Like, we still. I still would have trained the Irving guys and the Fort Worth guys. And then there's open days here would be like, how about this day? Like, at the end of the trip, we'll just do.
- [115:05]
A
Yeah.
- [115:05]
C
You know, it's. It's never gonna, like, cancel training because of real work. If anything, we're just gonna shoot on the range and wait till you come back and then be like, what happened? Yeah.
- [115:16]
B
Yeah.
- [115:17]
C
Can I get a uniform?
- [115:19]
A
Yeah, right, right.
- [115:20]
B
But we could have used to. You know, we're always. Well, we've had. We've. You know, we've had ops where we've used Garland, we've used Irving, because even Dallas, we run out of people. And we had a deal a couple years ago. Long story short, they're bringing a lot of dope in this barn. They're putting it out there under IR at night, and we didn't have enough people, so we had that. Brandon drove the APC for them and came in there. And we came in there under nod, you know, did a soft Breeze.
- [115:43]
A
That was a fun joke.
- [115:44]
B
It was. And. But then it turned in. Had to go clear this big building. But, like. Like, almost every piece of equipment and skill that you needed was on that one op.
- [115:53]
A
Yeah.
- [115:54]
B
You had apc, you had air. We had aerial platform guys. Don't be an overwatch on us with that. We had guys coming in, you know, through the back, you know, 40 of the whole property, sneaking in, using cover of foliage. That's not usually what Dallas PD does, but we're having to do that. And we used every. Almost every piece of kit and gear and tactic and utilization of everything on one op, you know, and we still end up having to have Garland come out and do that. And it was a really good deal. But, like, you just never know that we actually waited tonight.
- [116:24]
A
Yeah.
- [116:24]
B
To do that. Like, hey, we can do this at night. And it was just like, you know, having the confidence and the ability to do that and having guys that you can trust to bring in. It was a really good deal. And that was. That was. That was a good deal. That was. That was.
- [116:34]
A
And especially you think in Dallas, you're like, well, where would place. Like, I was thinking, where the. Are we going?
- [116:39]
B
Southeast of it. Sure.
- [116:40]
A
I was like, I had to.
- [116:41]
B
The city limits, too. Yeah.
- [116:43]
A
I was like.
- [116:43]
B
I had. It was the very bottom corner that still is not built up back that way, but, yeah, that was a good deal.
- [116:49]
C
So Dallas is the city. Like, the first. The last year when I came driving around, I was like, put in an address or something, and like, it's like, oh, you'll arrive in an hour and 50 minutes.
- [117:04]
A
Yeah.
- [117:04]
C
No, no, no, no, no. I'm going. Still in Dallas.
- [117:07]
B
Yeah.
- [117:07]
C
Yeah. It's an hour and 50 minutes.
- [117:09]
B
Yeah. Good luck. Yeah. Yeah.
- [117:11]
C
It's gonna cost you eight bucks. Yeah.
- [117:12]
A
It's only 15 miles. Why is it taking?
- [117:14]
B
So, yeah, that day, he goes, what is that with all yalls toll roads, how we pay for everything. Yeah. Oh, but I'm leaving downtown Dallas. Coming here. It's been over two hours many times.
- [117:22]
A
Yeah.
- [117:23]
B
You know, it's not that far of a drive.
- [117:24]
A
And it is.
- [117:25]
B
It's the. It's crazy. And it's just gotten worse.
- [117:28]
C
You know, the toll stuff is like, you have to pay to go pick someone up from the airport. I'm like, no, no, I'm not parking.
- [117:34]
A
I know.
- [117:34]
C
We don't care.
- [117:35]
B
I know.
- [117:35]
A
I don't know any other airport that does that, man. I really don't.
- [117:38]
C
Well, I. I think that's all. That's. It's awesome. Everyone's like, come to Texas. No state taxes. Yeah, yeah, there's other. Yeah, there's a lot of others.
- [117:46]
B
We're gonna get ours. Yeah, for sure.
- [117:48]
A
For sure.
- [117:49]
C
So two years ago in the August, I came here, right? We were here for 30, 35 days. Yeah. Y' all were here for a long time in Benworth. And, man, when I got home with the total added up, I had like $310 worth of tolls.
- [118:03]
B
I lost money on that trip.
- [118:05]
C
I never went through one toll booth. And then, you know, believe it or not, the. The system that you have to re. It's not very intuitive.
- [118:13]
A
Yep.
- [118:14]
C
On how to register for.
- [118:15]
B
Imagine that.
- [118:16]
C
Or even how to pay the tolls.
- [118:18]
B
Yeah.
- [118:18]
C
And then I'm like. Then it's. Then the late fees come. You're like, oh, yeah, well, can I pay it on. Nope. Get online. And you get online. Like, I don't think this is the site now.
- [118:27]
B
They had the algorithm made just right where you. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [118:30]
A
If you live in Dallas, you don't have a toll tag, man. I don't know how people. People do it. You gotta have a toll tag. Yeah. No, it's so. Well, Matt, you got anything else, man, before we wrap this up?
- [118:39]
C
No, no, this was great.
- [118:41]
A
Well, I appreciate you. What you do for. For law enforcement and the passion that you have and. And you give a. And you're always. Dude, I can't imagine how busy you are offline. I know. You know, we've talked about that. Just how many people hit you up. So keep it up, man. I. I do appreciate the friend you've been to us and. And to me in our community and always pushing us to be better, so I appreciate that, man. I really do.
- [119:05]
C
It's my pleasure, you know, it's honor to come here. And I love shooting with you guys. And TTPOA classes are easy.
- [119:13]
A
Yeah.
- [119:14]
C
Right. It's. Well, you guys handle everything, right? It's like, show up. And then. I like driving out here. It's always been good, guys. I think the. For me, it's, you know, I kind of get in line with people based off, like, the culture of training that they do. Right. As somebody who's interested in training and you see it in. You see it in Texas. I see it a lot in Arizona, you know, parts of California where guys are really into, you know, working, doing the work and getting better. So I. To me, it's a. It's an honor to come here and be able to, you know, try to contribute to that in whatever way I
- [119:48]
A
can Well, I appreciate it. Like you said, when I had known her out here, we were eating Mexican food one day and I was like, hey, man, I've been trying to get prank out here. He goes, really?
- [119:56]
B
You want him?
- [119:58]
A
Called you up, hey, man. And all of a sudden I'm talking to you on the phone again. And. And so, man, it's been a good friendship since then, so I, I appreciate it, man.
- [120:06]
C
So my pleasure.
- [120:07]
A
Look forward, look forward to more stuff.
- [120:10]
C
I gotta figure out Texas so damn big. Like, I have to get down south.
- [120:14]
A
Yeah.
- [120:15]
C
I wanted to get down to Houston, right. But I know Corpus Christi.
- [120:18]
A
Yeah. It's like, yeah, that's a hell eight hour drive. Seven hour drive.
- [120:22]
B
You will see driving go down to Houston. Yeah. You'll find.
- [120:24]
A
Yeah.
- [120:24]
C
Oh, yeah, I bet. Yeah.
- [120:27]
A
I think you ought to go to El Paso too. Drive to El Paso from here, man. That'll be a fun drive.
- [120:32]
B
That is a hike. That's like what, 10 hours or something like that. Yeah, it is all day and still in the state.
- [120:37]
C
That's the state that's like, I thought, you know, I was, oh, Corpus Christi and Houston, it's in the same area. Yeah. The guy's like, hey, are you coming down to Corpus Christi? Like, I think I'm coming to Houston. He's like, yeah, but are you coming down? And I had to get like the maps out. I'm like, like, no. Can you guys come up to Dallas?
- [120:54]
B
Yeah, like, yeah. That's a long way. Yeah.
- [120:57]
C
Well, it's so big you plan it down.
- [120:59]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, it is. But I mean, anytime I run basic swat, advanced squad or the HR school, man, they'll have guys from all over those. All over those border towns.
- [121:07]
B
Oh, we get a ton down Bordertown Corpus.
- [121:09]
A
They love it up here.
- [121:10]
B
They do every time. We have a ton of those guys.
- [121:13]
A
But anyway.
- [121:13]
B
But no, Matt, thank you for your service, for everything you've done. And you don't appreciate, you know, being available to us and everything was always enjoy having you up. So thank you very much.
- [121:21]
C
My pleasure.
- [121:21]
A
All right, boys and girls, this is going to cut. We're going to cut this off here and stay tuned for our next podcast. And y' all go train hard.