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The TTPOA Podcast
Obsidian Spear Group " Your Talent Will Take You To Places Your Character Can't Keep You"
01:48:31
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A
Foreign. Officers, military and all first responders.
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B
We'll be talking training, tactics and leadership.
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A
With the best subject matter experts around. All you, buddy.
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C
Welcome back, TTPOA fans. Matt Brandon here with you again. This is day four of conference 2025. A lot of podcasts already going down. You know, we're like number six or seven. Yeah, something like that.
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A
I'm like, when you said day four, I'm like, it feels like day 44.
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C
So. But now it's been good. So, you know, appreciate everybody coming on and doing this. And we have two very special guests with us today, and we're going to kick it off with them and let them introduce themselves.
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B
Cool. Oh, thank you, guys. You know, Ed Garry here, you know, owner and founder of Obsidian Spear Group. No, thank you guys for. For bringing us on, man. Like, truly, truly great pleasure, you know.
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A
Yeah. So, yeah, we love just having dudes come to our room early in the morning and never met them and just start chatting, man.
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D
That's.
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A
That's our favorite thing to do.
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B
Absolutely. Right.
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D
Okay. Rick Lofton. Yeah.
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B
On our.
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D
Thanks. Thanks for being here. Yeah, I appreciate it.
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A
So, Rick, where are you from, man?
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D
So I. I was originally from Southern Illinois. I don't really. I don't claim that anymore.
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A
You don't really claim that anymore?
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D
No, I got out of there, like, really early, like 7 years old, but I bounced around Florida quite a bit.
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A
Okay.
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D
But that's where I came in the Army.
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C
All right.
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D
Back in 96. Regular infantry guy in the 90s. Went to SFAS pretty quick. I was in the Q course in 01. So I graduated from there and ended up going to first group Fort Lewis or. All right, one short trip in the Philippines and then came right back to North Carolina. So I claim North Carolina now. All my girls are from there. I've got three daughters. All right. Been there pretty much 29. Yeah, 29 years.
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A
Yeah. So that is. Is your new home and stuff.
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B
It's a great place, but I don't know, man, there's no place like Texas.
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A
That's right. You're a Texas boy, right?
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B
You know it, man. You know, tried and true, man. You know, born in here. San Antonio. Yeah, born in San Antonio roughly about, you know, right when I was in middle school. Raised in Austin, man. So believe it or not, man, like, home for me is like, 20 minutes from here.
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A
Oh, that's good.
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B
So you definitely. Mom's. Mom's blowing up my phone every here and there.
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A
So have you been able to connect with family?
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B
Yeah. You know, and you Know, and this is. This is, like, another thing that it's. It's true, like, gratifying to me, like, being here at ttpoa because my younger brother is a police officer here in Austin.
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C
Oh, okay.
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B
You know, so one of those things, man, to be here and let it come full circle, you know, between what I've done and also kind of give it back. Also kind of helps family, too. That's. That.
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A
That. That's a good deal. So army as well?
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B
Yeah, army as well. Yeah. Man, I was. I was that kid, man, whenever I was, like, dude, I think I remember seeing, like, Rambo, like, you know, like eight years old somewhere around there, man. And I was like, dude, that's what I want to do. You know? That's probably like most guys do, right? You know? But, no, I just. I knew I. That that was the direction I wanted to go. But then, yeah, I got in the army, and, yeah, continue to. I served for a little bit, like, in the 101st for a very short, brief time, and, yeah, continued and went to the Ranger regiment, and, yeah, continue to serve, like, within the soft community and keep.
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A
Keep rising above in the ranks and stuff. So I'm assuming both. Both y' all combat deployments, all that fun and crazy stuff.
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B
Oh, yeah, man. I think. Well, obviously, Rick's a little more seasoned than I am. I won't say Olga. I won't say old. I say wise. Wise. You know, actually, you know, it's a. It's a funny thing I tell people. I'm like, you know, there's. It's. It's awesome to see, like, a connection between Rick and myself because he was actually my instructor.
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A
Okay.
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B
Yeah. He was the guy who pretty much held ease whether I continued on or I didn't, you know.
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A
So how's it. Like, obviously, there was some respect there of, like, you're the instructor, he's the student. And then seeing his career progress and.
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D
Stuff like that, there's even a little bit more to it. You actually have counsel. You're counseling the students as you go as well. But you only. Only get, like, four or five.
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A
Okay.
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D
And he happened to be. I was one of those counselors. I was his only counselor.
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A
Okay.
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D
Going through. So there's a little bit more there.
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C
Okay.
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D
So we normally. It's like, hands off, you know, your student, and, yeah, you know, do what you got to do. Keep your mouth shut. Yeah.
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A
Don't touch your students.
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D
But, you know, I'm kind of helping him out as much as I can, but still, you know, Keeping that separation.
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A
So good.
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D
Well, good.
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C
Well, that.
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A
That. That means a lot when you. When you. When you have a bond like that, and then there's a. And then now you become equal peers and. And that whole transformation is neat. Especially when you get new guys come on the team, and you see them, you're like, okay, there's some things that we got to polish up and things. And you see them four or five years later or now they're leading different things on your team. It. It's a really proud moment.
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B
Oh, dude.
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A
I think it's. Yeah, a really good deal. I remember we had. A couple years ago, we had a HR deal and had to go in there and save the. Save the kid. And the. God made a choice, and he made the wrong choice and he had to be shot and stuff. And I remember driving back to the station to go debrief, and I was like. It was a proud moment for. For me. I'm like, man, this was. This is what we trained for. This is what we do. The guys. It was my team that did it. I was the team leader on the deal, and my guys did a fabulous job, like a proud dad and stuff. And I think that's a. That's a good thing, like, to recognize that and to see that, because it's important to pass on this to the guys that are. That are coming to take your spot and things like that.
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B
Oh, yeah, man. I definitely, definitely agree, man. Because I. For me, I tell people it's like. Or at least my what gives me gratification.
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C
Like.
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B
Like, that's. That's. That's, like, the definition of, like, true legacy, man. You know, because, you know, whatever. I mean, I said this during my lecture yesterday. I was like, it doesn't really matter what I've done, you know, I mean, I don't rest on the accolades of the past. You know, I gotta be able to perform today, but long after I'm gone, man, it's like, what can I kind of instill to somebody else, you know? And I look back at, like, my time in Ranger regimen, man.
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A
Yeah, dude.
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B
Being able to, like, mentor, like, young guys who come in with just a clean slate.
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C
Yeah.
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B
And then I look back at what they're doing now, dude. These guys are, like first sergeants, sergeant major, doing amazing things and just, like, giving back to the next generation. And I. I think if you do it right from, like, a point of humility and. And have good, good intentions.
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A
Yeah.
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B
That's how you shape culture, man.
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A
Yeah. Oh, for sure. And I think That's. That's the key word that you. That you touch on was culture. I think culture is a. Is so important, but I think it gets lost sometimes, especially with younger people, and they don't know the history of what you're wearing, why you're wearing it, what this unit means. But if you don't have it passed down, how these guys ever know, and you make it important and you stress that, hey, this is the culture of whatever unit you're coming into, whatever team, whatever division you're coming into, this is just what's expected of you. Yeah. And then therefore, you're taking that and you're making it better for the next guy to come along. You're keep building upon that foundation. And I think the Rangers have a great. Everyone I've been around that has been through that pipeline, there's just natural leaders that they produce, and just the way they look at things, it's definitely taking the. The eye out of it and putting it back on the whole. Which is so important in the. In the. In a. In a team environment.
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B
Oh, yeah, definitely, man. I think. Yeah, man, it's. It's all about the team. And granted, like, you know, life is imperfect, man. You know, we're all trying to continue to grow and learn, and there's moments where you become selfish, but it's your ability to navigate. I call it, like, navigating human terrain. Like, I won't. I won't coin that as my own. My. My buddy who knows he's out there, man, he. He said that to me, and he's like, hey, man, you gotta, like, navigate human terrain.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, and I was like, dude, that's. That's. That's so profound, man. But, you know, as long as you can do that. Well, you know, I think it's extremely important, man, you know, to. To kind of mentor the next. Next generation.
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A
Yeah. That is a good way to phrase it. I might steal that.
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B
Yeah. Because it.
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A
Because it is like, there's personalities are huge and then egos and. And just all the.
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C
All that.
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A
That you deal with.
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B
Yeah.
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A
It's a lot.
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B
Well, you look at, you know, you look at people who wanted to pursue the next thing, you know, for whatever reason, and it's like, hey, you. You see the flashy thing? Like, I. I see all these, like, phenomenal, like, police officers here today, and I'm like, dude, that's awesome, man. That's, like, motivating to me.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, they're. They're. They're walking around with their holsters SHIELD And I'm like, dude, that's cool. Like, how do I get one. How do I get one of those, man? You know, And I. I know that there's. There's the younger generation who has that calling, but, like, once you get the thing, you know, I think that that's where the. That's where the two. The true test of, like, your character is. Right. Like, what are you doing to continue to maintain that? And sometimes the organization creates the culture to continue to foster that and let it grow.
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C
Yeah.
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B
And when it doesn't, it's probably an indication that the organization is. Is compromised or the individual's compromised.
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C
Yeah.
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D
Yeah.
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B
So no, man. I think that everybody has their moments of, like, you know, life is. Is trying to test their, you know, test where. Where they're going to compromise on something.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Your ability to kind of identify quickly and get, like, snap out of it is important.
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A
Yeah. So you said you had a. A talk yesterday. What. What was that about? What did you. What was the discussion on that?
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B
Yeah, yeah. You know. Yeah, it was. It was kind of culmination between, like, myself and a few of the other guys, part of the team, primarily Rick and myself.
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D
Okay.
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B
You know, was talking about the challenges and commonalities with. With cqb, you know, between law enforcement and military. And it wasn't really much as. It was like a tactical discussion because I think there's. There's tons of tactics that are out there. Right. And the moment you throw up tactics, man, you're gonna. Dude. I mean, you might as well, like, I mean, hiding or something, man. Oh, yeah. Start throwing everywhere. Right.
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A
O. It's a huge. Just. We're. Yeah.
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B
Yeah. But, you know, I. I think that that's where we.
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D
We.
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B
We navigated. We. We wanted to do something in a different realm that I think is truly important to. To kind of address. And it was more kind of a. A strategic and cultural awareness of how we look at cqb. And that's what we kind of discussed with Rick and myself. Yeah. Well, good.
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C
We. We. We'll get into.
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D
We'll.
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A
We'll cover tactics a little bit later because we'll go into what you are teaching here and.
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D
And things back to the topic you're talking about before. I'll show something with Ed that I don't think I've ever shared with him, but we'll talk about being on the other side of the counseling thing. I had when I. When I went through and I was being counseled, my. I still remember who it was. And it was like, not only did you give me, you know, very little. It was, like, not even worth saying. So I wanted to bring something more to my guys.
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C
Yeah.
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D
But I was. The first time I was counseling these guys.
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A
Okay.
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D
So at that time, when he was coming through, these guys are vetted. They've done a lot. Yeah, they're. They're spot on. Yeah, it's really solid.
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A
Yeah. You're the cream right here. Cream of the crop of stuff.
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D
So the challenge for me is, like, as a counselor, I was. I was just as nervous counseling you as you were.
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B
No way.
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D
Balancing what I should say and what I can say. Yeah. You know, it was. And that was my first time counseling, so. Oh, I was just as nervous as you on the other.
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B
Oh, man. You know, like, if I didn't know any better, I like, dude, this guy's like, I mean.
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D
I mean, I was. I was a leader in the 82nd and counseling privates. Yeah. I learned how to do that, but it was still intimidating, you know.
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A
Yeah.
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D
It's trying to give these guys, you know, something, but not.
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C
Well, you probably recognize it's not lost on that, you know, it's a great responsibility.
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D
Absolutely.
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C
Yeah. And so you're like, you know, I have a job to do, but now I have a job to do, plus this. Yeah, that's a great responsibility because you understand what you're asking them to do into, you know, what that job entails.
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B
So it.
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C
We all had to learn how to do this job, whatever job you're doing.
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B
Yeah.
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C
And same thing with, you know, me when I came over and, like, I had great guys that I'm very thankful now. I'm still good friends with a lot of them now. And, you know, they had great guys that taught them. Like, none of us walked in here knowing how to do this. I mean, you may have attributes or natural ability that lends to maybe helping you. You still had to learn. And I'm telling you, I had great guys and very thankful for them, and I still hear their voices and things that they said to me, and now I hear myself saying some of the same stuff. So it is. It's a great responsibility. That's probably one of the reasons why you knew that, because you're like, hey, I don't want to mess this up either. So then if that sounds right.
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D
Yeah. At that point, you know, it's. You definitely need to take pride in this if it's going to be, you know, received. Well, yeah, you can. I can't even tell you what I want to Say what? My counselor told me, but, you know, it was like, I'm going to give these guys, let them know that, you know, I actually care.
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B
Well, I think when you look at those two things, you know, and I was. I was a cadre, you know, within the 75th Ranger Regiment, you know, like, you know, well, hundreds, if not probably almost thousands of guys who were assessing to be part of the Ranger regiment. But, you know, when you have the right. Right mindset as what you were just talking about, you know, is like that, you know, there's different stigmas of how you perceive, like, the way that you bring people into the fold. Right.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And it's like that there's. There's the people with the more kind of, like, negative connotation of, like, I'm the gatekeeper.
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A
Yes.
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B
Or I'm kind of the arbitrator of, like, I just want to do it justice. I want to go do right by the individual, but I also want to do white right by the organization. And I think that there's a lot of responsibility in that. Right. Like, I mean. I mean, I remember there was a moment I was. I was going through, like, a selection process, you know, to. To go over to, you know, actually, you know, the Green Berets, you know, and, I mean, I passed everything, and I got to a point in great organization. Like, I. Some of my best friends were there. But you realize that there was some cadre who held the keys of whether you were successful or not. I don't know what was going on in their life, you know, but it was like. I mean, it became a very subjective way of how you felt about people. And I was like, man, I just. I don't know if this is me, man. You know? And I. I was like, hey, man, I'm. I'm gonna go back to the Ranger Regiment, you know?
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A
Yeah, it's.
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B
Yeah, it's important.
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A
It's.
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D
It's a.
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A
It's a balance. It's fine line of, like you said, of being the gatekeeper and. And having the role of. You said arbitrator, like, because I've seen that in the past of, man, this is mine. And no one can. Can change this. Because if you change, if this changes, where's my place in this? Because that's the wrong attitude. It should be all right. There's some foundations. I think we talked about that, too. There's just some foundations that just don't need to really be compromised. And then there's some other stuff that. Well, technology or whatever the case may be. Abilities, all that thing can all be like maneuvered and looked at and go, oh, well, yeah, that's a better way to do it. You're exactly right and be able to move in that direction. But that's, that's just making progress and that's just being proactive and being a, a student of the craft that, that you're in. The way I look at it because when you're talking about guys who have led you and the voices you have, I'm the same way also. And I think to the. The community's small enough too. Those same voices that, that were talking to you have talked to me too. And the same voices that talk to me probably have said stuff to you like, because we're pretty close in the DFW area of teams and known people and things like that. So there's, there's a lot of intermingling in the training and I'm like, oh, that's a really good way to do things. Or we, we do different trainings with guys. So those, those voices are huge. It's not just your team. If you're going to be productive and you're going to be part of the community that's actually pushing good. And I think that's like what we do this podcast, if we did the organization is what we try to at least. And we fell into some. I mean, we're not perfect. You know, someone's will probably listen to this going, you dumb. I don't like what you have to say, so.
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B
Well, man, you know, I will say sometimes like, the, the people who are most influential in history probably had that kind of same, you know, perception, you know, others had their perception of them. Like, dude, you're. What the are you like doing? You know, but it, you know, when you're kind of that out of box thinker, if you're doing it by, you know, with, with, with you know, good, genuine perspective, like. But people are going to look at you in that way.
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D
Yeah.
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A
Yeah. And I think too, you don't know what you don't know when you come into anything new, say a team environment and what you perceive as. Well, that's not right. I don't really like that you're on the team for a couple years and now you have a different view and you're like, that was right what he was saying. Or I get it now. And you see them doing what they didn't like at first and now it's part of them and they're like, oh, I, I know why you were hard on Me, I know why you made me do this. Yeah, yeah, you gotta. There's steps that we're building here. You just don't see the whole. You're not on the, on the fifth floor yet. You're still right here on the basement level trying to get up here yet. So the view's different when you, when you get higher because you have more experience and time and stuff like that.
- [17:13]
B
Yeah, no, I think. Yeah, exactly. It's just allowing some, some time to kind of process what's. What's happening. You know, I used to have like, leaders and I know, like, guys who, you know, it spans across all different kinds of industries where it's like, man, someone just comes in and they're like, they just want to change things for the sake of changing. And, you know, sometimes it's warranted, right? You know, you may identify something and, you know, maybe you bring some kind of level of some, Some experience that requires it to change quickly. But on the negative, for the guys who are kind of like in the middle of the line or like the lower level, you're like, dude, we've been doing this for a while. Like, this. Do they not trust us? Do you not trust me, man? And then now you're dealing with something completely different, right? And that's where, like, that's where like on the, on the back of everything that's happening is how do you regain that? Because, you know, the, that we do in our realm, you know, both military and, and law enforcement, and we're working in these tight knit, you know, teams and, and dynamic and very chaotic situations, man. Trust is paramount, man. Yeah, you know, so.
- [18:18]
A
Yeah, no, it definitely is. So company. You have a company that you're. How long has it been? How long?
- [18:26]
B
It's been around, like, about a year now. Okay, about a year.
- [18:28]
A
And where do you, where do you, where's the name stem from? Like, why that name?
- [18:33]
B
So, you know, I had gone through, you know, a little bit of, like, processing on how I, you know, what I wanted the name to be. I wanted to it. For it to be meaningful. So as I was kind of bringing on, bringing on, like, you know, into my mind all the different experiences that I had. And what I also wanted the other individuals who I would bring on as well is, was like, hey, man, like, you know, we want to be. We. You know, everybody wants to be the tip of the spear, right? And everybody possesses that ability. But for us, I was like, hey, man, like, the obsidian was like, it was kind of like, you know, the arrowhead of like warriors in the past, right? It was, it's like a black, you know, black stone, you know, lava. But, but with that I was like, hey man. Like we've all like, not only just because people's like, hey man, you kind of operate in the dark. You do things that like, not very many people know, but I felt that it had transcend beyond that, right? Because that's just. That might only, maybe people might like, that only applies to like many military guys. But no man, it, it applies to anybody. Like, hey man, like the things that, things that you experience and the things that you experience like in life, right, Came from a very like, dark place, right? Like you experience trials and tribulations, right? Like you had to fight through that. So I was like obsidian, right? So like a combination of obsidian wanting to be the spear, right? And a culmination of like multiple people, right? Like we're like a group of. But like I said, it didn't have to have like a, like a military special operations thing. They had. It to me was about meaningful of like the path that you walked. I like that to be that, that protector, that first responder to, to do the things that you guys are doing. To do the things that all these guys are doing here at ttpoa, man. Like, I, Dude, I, man, I'm, I'm, I'm truly amongst heroes, man. I, I don't know. So. Yeah, that's, that's the purpose.
- [20:23]
A
Well, we feel the same, same way as well. It's funny. Several years ago we had to, we were able to go to a certain place and do some stuff with a high level unit and we're just shooting the. And stuff. And it, some of the questions they asked me, it was, it was so crazy. Like I was at the time I was in undercover narcotics and you know, look like a bag and stuff and, and one of the things that I'll never forget is the guy's like, man, what's it like to police your own citizens and also kill them? Because, well, we go, we're in, you know, some foreign country. They don't really look like us. The culture's not us. It's not our people. And it's just kind of, it's just a different mindset. When they said that I was like, never in my life thought about that. It was, it was, it was just a really fascinating, just deep thought that I had to take. And then when he was, he was asking me what. It's like, I'm like, I've never even thought about that. What's like to take, take someone's life that's an American citizen or someone lives in your city, someone who looks like you. So it was just a fascinating thing. So it. When you were talking about, well, this is how you view. And I think there's a lot that we have in common, but there's also some things that we just don't see that we would be a little different because of job descriptions and, and things like that. And, and so I think that's, that's what's cool is there's such a, a bond and doing a lot of the same stuff, but there's a lot of differences as well that, that are really unique to each person's job and stuff. I mean, even within the police department, like, you take some dude who's an ICAC investigator who looks at kitty porn and all that stuff compared to, you know, a SWAT guy, dude, the. It's not even the same stuff. But quote, you're still a police officer, so, but anyway, well, so going back, so the name, kind of like you're talking about, you're setting the culture for the company that you want. Like, this is the culture, the people that we want in. This is the mind set that when you think about us or when you leave this, like, hey, this is what this is looking like. So, yeah, kudos for you. Kudos for you.
- [22:29]
B
Yeah, thanks, man. Yeah, I think it's just a constant pursuit of excellence, man. Like, nobody's perfect, man. Yeah, like, dude, I've. I've probably failed more than I've ever succeeded, you know, And I know, like, you know, Rick and all of us can say the same thing, you know, it's like, you know, the young generation sees you and they see the title that you hold you now, or the title that you held, but what they don't see on the back end is, is the failures that, that you had to endure through that. So that was kind of like that. So I, you know, I, I, you know, I think that that's where, you know, true change happens. You know, like, we think about, like doing, doing stuff like in the house or doing stuff like, you know, as we do stuff for tactical training, man, like, you're gonna up, like, dude, like, Rick would see, Rick would see me up so many times, man, and he would tell me to do something and I would, like, he literally just told me and then we go again and then I fall on my face, right?
- [23:20]
D
Yeah.
- [23:20]
B
And then as it progressed, I would like even feel like, oh, dude, this is it. And this I'M done. I'm done, man. Like, I mean, but, but, you know, but, but in that moment, right, like, it starts to, like really kind of, like, it starts to resonate, you know? And like, hey, man, this is that, that. I mean, now that, that, that experience of that failure, right? Like, really kind of like, I'll never do that again. Like, I'm always going to remember that.
- [23:42]
C
Not.
- [23:42]
A
Yeah, so.
- [23:42]
B
Yeah, no, he, he's probably seen that countless times.
- [23:45]
A
He's got a lot memories of you messing up.
- [23:46]
D
I think right now he likes to eat himself up. But his biggest challenge was he was actually steps ahead of the normal group. So he was kind of out running. He was. He came up a little ahead. Okay, so guys that have had that experience or that training, that's the biggest trouble for them is. All right, we gotta slow back down.
- [24:05]
A
Yeah.
- [24:05]
D
So that was, I think, here.
- [24:07]
B
Yeah, I think yourself up. But yeah, I think, you know, some people is in, you know, you run into that where I came in with different, different experiences, man. Different. Different training reps and trying to break through that, right? And you know, guys that at this level, right, they're like, how do I, how do I break the horse, right? To do the thing that I needed to do?
- [24:27]
A
You know, to me, it's like it, it's like, it's. It's the NFL of, of this. And there's, you know, so many experience levels of, of, of of that. And you're putting all this together and man, and, and you're selecting the. Just the cream of the crop here. And there's so much competition. There's so much just. I mean, every day's an evaluation. Every day is, am I going to be here? Am I not? And, man, there's a lot of pressure with that and rightfully so. I mean, that's a pretty important job. So. Yeah, but, yeah, I can imagine. Like you said, man, all that. And I think anybody that I know that is successful, what they do, they're hard of themselves. Like, way harder on themselves than they are on anybody on their team. Anything else like that. Because it's fucking obsession.
- [25:11]
B
Yeah, yeah. No, I, I.
- [25:12]
D
Key point that you made yesterday.
- [25:13]
A
Yeah.
- [25:14]
D
On. Yeah, yeah.
- [25:16]
B
I think being, being that and you know, and this is where it goes, it transcends back even. You know, for me, I could say this, like families, man, I mean, to, to deal with because you guys, we all kind of take some of that back home. Like, you know, the very thing that got you to be successful and to be able to pass the things that you did. And to be able to navigate that ahead of like, your peers and everyone else was that you're extremely analytical. You were that person who's like, I'm playing chess and I five, ten steps ahead, Right?
- [25:43]
A
Yeah.
- [25:44]
B
Like, sometimes it's just in the sense of like, maybe it's like, this is the action I'm going to take or these are the actions I'm not going to take for me personally. And I can, I can attest to this with a lot of, like, close friends. It's like once you find yourself at the, at the end of, like, hey, I'm becoming the wise individual individual where I'm no longer that, that the. The end fighter. Like, it's to give back, but it's like, how do you shut that off? Like, how do you turn that off? And you've been doing it for decades, man. So I, it goes back to like, how, how families, man, how do your, how do your spouses, your loved ones, you know, your kids, how do they navigate? Like, dude, that's just like, he's doesn't sleep, you know.
- [26:21]
A
Yeah.
- [26:22]
B
You know, everything, you know, so, so.
- [26:23]
A
You'Re, you're, you're about to transition into, hey, my last. Whatever operation, my last CQB entry, my last. This is, is starting to be there.
- [26:35]
D
Yeah.
- [26:35]
A
So what's that been like for you and are you still active as well, or.
- [26:39]
D
I've been out. Out for four, four years now. So you've, you've 21.
- [26:42]
A
So you've walked that path.
- [26:44]
D
Yes, I, Yeah, I've been there a while.
- [26:46]
C
Yeah.
- [26:46]
A
So you understand. So how are you dealing with that? Has it hit you yet or.
- [26:50]
B
Oh, dude, it hit me very hard, like, you know, almost like a year ago. And it has its moments where it intermittently comes back, right. You, you question, like, where's my worth? Right? Because you almost. Sometimes you become part of a thing, you know, Especially for me, it was like, that's what I always wanted to do, you know, but it was like, I, I use the analogy, and I've told this to someone. It's like, if I use the analogy of, you know, going through a shoot house, right? Like, history would say that I've dominated every room that I've gone into. Never perfectly. Right. Like, I have failed, right. I have fallen on my ass. And will I continue to do that? Absolutely. Right. But I was always part of a team in those things, right. You know, through my time in the military. So I'm navigating through this house. But the very end of that, right, Now I'm at the tail end, right? Like, the next door is not another room. It's not another portion of the house.
- [27:45]
A
Yeah.
- [27:45]
B
The environment is completely different. It's like dark woods. And that's how I saw that. Like, I remember having this dream and it was terrifying, man.
- [27:52]
A
Yeah.
- [27:53]
B
I was like, how do I navigate these woods? And I had a close conversation with a friend, and he's like, ed, he's like, dude, like, you're going to a new environment, man. Like, you're. You're still part of the stack, man. The guys are all out there. Like, whether it's, you know, the guys who you're running with and the true friends that you had, man, they're. They're still right behind you. And the. The people who paved the way who are already out. Yeah, they're there. They're just further in the woodline. Just. Just freaking radio them up, man.
- [28:19]
A
And that's good. Yeah.
- [28:20]
B
Yeah. And I. I think with that, man, it's. It broke down a lot of my ego and my pride to say, you know what? Like, hey, let me reach out. Like, all those people are, you know, life happens.
- [28:29]
A
Yeah.
- [28:29]
B
But I started to realize, like, man, it was just a simple phone call, like, hey, man, like, you know, can. You know what. What's your experience? Like, hey, can you help me out with this? And, dude, they were more than, you know, glad to do that. They. But the thing is, like, you know, unless you say something, man, like, people would think you're doing okay, you know?
- [28:44]
A
Yeah. No, I agree.
- [28:46]
B
Yeah.
- [28:47]
A
What was it like for you, now that you're four years out of that? Like, what's that. What's that journey been like?
- [28:53]
B
It.
- [28:53]
D
It was pretty bad. Yeah. I went through it early on. Well before I got out. It came when I actually left the team. And I've had discussions with other guys and actually some mentors of mine too, that went through the same thing, but you go through kind of like picture, okay. You have guys, you're in that leadership position and decisions that you're making are for. Are these. You know, their lives are in jeopardy potentially or not. You're. And you're, you know, you're saving each other's lives.
- [29:26]
B
It.
- [29:27]
D
A lot of the time.
- [29:27]
A
Yeah.
- [29:28]
D
And then you go out of that group that I was, you know, in this little group for 10 years, and then now you're on your own.
- [29:34]
B
Yeah.
- [29:35]
D
Nobody's relying on you or your decision making anymore.
- [29:38]
A
Yeah.
- [29:39]
D
And that luckily. Yeah, it was. It was. It was really rough.
- [29:43]
A
So going back to.
- [29:44]
D
Yeah.
- [29:45]
A
Where did you. Because I think you hit on a big. Where do you find value at? What's your purpose? Like what. Because you, you had it wrapped up in, in this thing.
- [29:53]
D
And I ended up actually right off the bat when I got out, I was lucky enough to fall into a company that hired me. Just, it was flat range teaching civilians. Just flat range, pistol and rifle. But that's the word. The sense of worse came back and I'm, I've never been. Like it wasn't my identity, but that sense of worth.
- [30:14]
A
Yeah.
- [30:14]
D
Is real. Was really important, you know.
- [30:16]
A
Yeah.
- [30:16]
D
And you kind of, it's, you struggle with that big responsibility for so long.
- [30:21]
C
Long.
- [30:22]
D
And I never even knew it was going to hit me so hard or did. But now four years with the reward came back with just the civilians. I love teaching. I love teaching. Bringing a guy that is. Or a gal that's, you know, borderline and really intimidated or scared of a pistol and bringing them up to a high level in one day, that was, that was doing it for me for the last couple years. And now I'm seeing the law enforcement side of it. It's, it's even more. Because, you know, I, it's simple stuff with them, but it goes a long way. But I think it translates more with you guys because I was like, all right, now I'm helping you get home safely.
- [30:59]
A
Yeah.
- [30:59]
D
Rather than just be safe on the range. You know. It translates a lot more for me now.
- [31:04]
A
Yeah. I think too like that. Because I have, I'll have 27 years in law enforcement this summer and 20 years on our team. So on the downhill. My whole career of everything being just over with. But I, I, I, I talk to guys like that. That's why I ask you that. Oh. That's why other buddies that, that have gone before me, I'm like, okay, how hard is it? What was it like? Because I'm, I'm one of those guys. I want to reach out and as much as I can. And I know I gotta. It's gonna be my own journey, my own process. But there's some tools out there and there's some understanding and things like that. But I think what I'm, what I'm hearing too is I'm the same way is whatever I do after this career, I think it has to be in some servant form where I'm serving a higher purpose than just me. Because that's what, that's what we've all done in our career. And I don't say in a cheesy way that, you know, putting my pedestal, but I just don't know any other way. Like, there's no other. My brain doesn't think any other way. So for me, it's not about money. It's not about whatever. It's just like, how do I help somebody else? How do I connect you with this person? So y', all, too, can go do some training or whatever the case may be. Like, to me, that's just natural for me, and I like that. And I think that's what I'm hearing with y' all is like, okay, well, I'm not doing this anymore, but how do I give back to a community that I've been a part of and all that? So, yeah.
- [32:30]
B
Yeah. I think those things, you know, and you. You hit the nail on the head is that's so much intangible value there. Right? You know, I mean, if you put it on the tangible all the time, man, like, at the end of the day, that thing gets spent, right? And then you're the next thing, and you're. You're constantly riding this roller coaster. But to be able to kind of do that and, you know, give someone something that's going to shape them, it's going to resonate and how they move forward, like, and it, you know, it goes back to. Even beyond them. Right. We go back to like, hey, man, that person gets to go home every day.
- [32:57]
A
Yeah.
- [32:57]
B
Or he gets to influence the young. The young generation in some form or fashion because he. He's carrying around that small, like, whatever, you know, parable or quote that you said, man, just stuck with him.
- [33:10]
C
Yeah.
- [33:10]
B
And you never know it, right? Sometimes, like, dude. Like, dude, I had guys who, like, I've spoken to, and they find me, like, 10 years later and like, hey, man, like, you really changed me. I'm like, I. I didn't really think. I'm just trying to be a good person, you know, and those are all those things that you're doing. It has to be deeply rooted in wanting to be of service. And that's honestly probably the reason why you got into. Into it, right?
- [33:30]
A
No, for. For sure. But I was. It was kind of like, you, like, the whole rainbow deals. Like, I played cops and robbers and. And. And fun stuff like that. To me, I got into it because it was just gonna be. I was just a call that was gonna be fun. This is gonna be baddest I've ever done in my life. And then it just keeps growing and growing, and you're like, man, this is just a drug to me. And, and I would say to that point, I don't. I think because of youth. For me, my, my personal journey, because of youth. At first, it wasn't necessarily about the service of, of others and, and doing all that. It wasn't until I got older in my life and I saw, I think I had a heart change and, and just life change and, and just maturity and all that kind of stuff. Then it was like, okay, so now there's another aspect to this job. And so that's, that was kind of my personal journey. I think. It was always deep in there.
- [34:25]
B
Yeah.
- [34:25]
A
But it was just pulling it out because you have to get the, like, the fun out. You have to get all this out and experience and, and learn a lot of that you did wrong to understand what it's like to truly walk a, a path that fulfills you and stuff.
- [34:40]
B
Yeah, no, I was, I was actually just gonna say the same thing. I was like, yeah, for me, like, it was like, yeah, you see all that. But I was like, I think always, like, at the very core of everything that, that, that was there, it just required some, you know, some wisdom, some, you know, growing a maturity.
- [34:54]
A
Because it has to be fun. Like, I gotta have enjoyment of it. Like, like, I wouldn't do this podcast, like, oh, this is the most miserable thing I ever do, but it serves other people. I'm like, I mean, there, there, there's, there's, there's. Because when it's fun, it just makes it easy to serve and it just makes it authentic to me.
- [35:11]
B
Totally agree.
- [35:12]
A
And stuff. So it'll be curious to see. Continue to, to train law enforcement. I hope you all have many more of those conversations with guys that are going to be looking to, to get out and all that kind of stuff, because I think that's important that we continue to. Because there, there is something about guys who have been there and done that at a high level that can relate to other guys. There's just, there's a connection there. And, and I'm not talking about anybody else or anything like that, but there's just sometimes where there's just you. You need someone that you, that you look up to to come down and go, hey, man, you're not alone in this. And that's hard for, for men to do that. So. And, and I think that's what we are called to do with people below us, to be able to, to pull them along through things.
- [36:05]
B
Yeah, no, I agree, man. You know, and I think it's your ability to come down to that level and you know, some people would be like, well, why are you going to come down to their level? Like, you're supposed to write. I mean, dude, those things kind of happen together, right? Like, they do. It's a fair balance, you know. You know, I was reading like an old book and, you know, it talked about like an assaulter, like going into a room and there was this, you know, was dealing with Stockholm syndrome. But like, the one thing that desensitized her to that whole experience was, dude, the guy took his helmet off. Like, you think of this freaking big, huge assaulter.
- [36:36]
C
Yeah.
- [36:37]
B
That comes in everything, takes off his rifle, takes off his helmet, right? All he has is just his kit, right? And takes a knee and says, here, I'm here to save you. Like, dude, that was powerful for me. I, like, I can't remember the name of the book, but when you see that and if you can say, hey, like, I'm going to come down to your level, you know, because it's. It's frightening for some people, and then say, hey, man, like, I'm. I'm here to, like, I'm here to like, take you out of this situation. I'm here to like, you know, elevate you is a big thing, you know, Like, I think even when I talk to my son, like, you know, like, I, I always sometimes try to make an effort, man. Like, especially if the. Some, even some kids where they're. They're intimidated by a large adult, right? Like you. That's why I think I look at the bedside manner. I call it bedside manner. With teachers, it's like, dude, they'll like, take a knee and like, dude, like, it's. It's daunting sometimes.
- [37:23]
A
Yeah.
- [37:24]
B
But doing that is like as an instructor, a leader, to say, hey, like I, I can move across different, different levels here to be able to relate with you, but also elevate you for that.
- [37:35]
C
Well, I think anybody that's really good, any business they're in, passion gets used a lot. I think it used overused. But you could be really. You really want to do it because a talent only take you so far. You look at the NFL, the draft, they draft, you know, guys every year. I think it's going on right now, matter of fact. And then three, four years from now, now the guys are out of the league. It's not because of ability because you got drafted, obviously. Think of the money that the NFL spends in selecting and assessing people to bring onto your team. You get paid millions of dollars and then you're out of the League in three to four years because you. You cannot hold it together. You can only go so far on talent. Okay? You know, and, you know, when there's plenty of great athletes out there walking around that are better than any of us, you know, at whatever they do, but for whatever reason, they're unsuccessful. You have to have a passion. You have to have a commitment to excellence and to be great at your craft. We all, in our business, and when, like I said, I said earlier, I had guys that were really great at their job, and they had, you know, burnt down the midnight oil trying to get really good at their job, rep after rep, you know, and working through a lot of things. And I think because they understood how hard that is in the hardship to be. Well, you want to be an expert, to be really good in your field, you have to have that passion.
- [38:48]
D
Passion.
- [38:49]
C
You have to have ability and talent, but you got to want it. You got to grind, and you just got to work down and haven't had the experience to talk to guys in similar, you know, circumstances with you guys and stuff like that. They're like, plenty of guys come through here. You know, they have the ability or like, he looked like he was, you know, whatever it being some reason it didn't make it or that didn't last very long, you have to have that commitment. And I think when guys do that in any business you're in is that you appreciate other people, people that are willing to do that, because you have to understand that you didn't do it by yourself. Somebody had to help you along. And if, you know, when I was a new guy, I was just trying to make the team and just where I was not being yelled at and, you know, and I was like, I just want to make it, stay in the corner, not be bothered, you know, not do anything. And then you realize that's not gonna work. Like, you can have that little bit of time as a new guy to buy yourself, but the next new guy comes in behind you, guess what? You have to have ownership in him, and then the next guy comes in. Now you're having to divide your attention. And now having been there for a while, where I have a lot of guys, if that makes sense. Whereas, like, everybody in, you know, in your squad and your team, you have a little bit of ownership with them because you recognize the struggles they're going through. You understand that they have their own life, their family and all that. But at the same time, you have a job to do, and you have to, you know, can constantly ascent is what we try to say, I love that, you know, we're constantly ascending over. Over here. It's not necessarily just tactics and bench press and everything, but as a. As a group working together to be able to solve problems on the move, if that makes sense. Is that fair to say?
- [40:20]
B
No, absolutely. Yeah. You're doing it beyond just even the tactical realm, right? Because, I mean, heck, man, if a person's dealing with, like, life problems, right, like, dude, you're picking up that. Dude's like, metaphorical, like, sector, bro. Like, you're picking that up, man. Like, it does you no good if, yeah, you're this awesome tactician, man. But everything else is false falling apart, right? And being a good one, man, if you're the one who's ahead of him, is, hey, man, like, I. I've run into this situation and I see you go down, man. I'm gonna pick up your sector, right? And help you up. I guess it's weird, man, because I think a lot of people and I. I was this person too. It's like, oh, man, it's like, let him do his thing, right? And, you know, oh, maybe he has it together or whatever. But, you know, we all have to find moments to say, hey, man, I'm gonna reach out, like, let me do a buddy check. Or if you see something, man, work. Yeah, absolutely.
- [41:08]
C
What it is.
- [41:08]
B
But I like what you said about the whole, like, talents thing, man, you know, is. I was listening. I did. This was, like, years ago. I saw this, like, motivational speaker, and when he said this, like, it, like, it hit me. I was like, dude, this is so true. He said, sometimes your talents will take you places your character can't keep you. And I was like, boom.
- [41:26]
C
Yeah, that's good.
- [41:27]
A
Wow, I like that.
- [41:28]
C
And we'll steal that one, by the way.
- [41:30]
D
Yeah, man.
- [41:30]
B
I mean, that was profound. I was like, wait. I was like, well, well, you kind of could span that across all different kinds of parts of industry, right? And you say the NFL, too. You know, it's like, dude, you are a talented athlete. Yeah, but you came in, right? Like, maybe you. Maybe the reason why you played football or why you came in to be in law enforcement or why you became to be, you know, a service member was rooted in something good, right? And you became very skilled in that. But then somewhere along the lines, the character started to falter. It doesn't mean that freaking you're not going to make mistakes. Like, I mean, mistakes will happen, right?
- [42:02]
D
Oh, yeah.
- [42:03]
B
But, like, when you say that, that's the personality I'm gonna live in. Dude, that's your character, man.
- [42:08]
C
Well, you think about it as a young youth. You've been playing football, baseball, basketball, you know, majority of your life. When you go to the pros, that's not this job. You know, as a kid, you're out playing, you know, soldier army or whatever, but it's not the same. And so you're walking in as a. As an adult to some level, you know, and having to learn a job, a trade, a craft that, for the most part, your life has not prepared you for, trained you for. And some people, that's hard. They just. They cannot take that hit because they've always been fast, they've been strong, they can cast, they can write. And so it just comes natural. But when you have to, again, grind and put in the work and the time, some people, it. They're just. They're just not queued up that way. And, you know, and you'll. You'll start to see. You'll figure guys out. And guys that have been in that business for a while of selection and watching, they're like, you know, you start to pick them out. You know, I don't want to put words in people's mouths, but, you know, having done enough selections and all that, and you see that and, you know, I think that when you. And I think goes back because, you know, you know how hard it was for you, you know, the work that you put in. So when you see guys that they may be failing, but they're doing it full speed and they care and they work, it's probably what you saw with him. You're like, he's messing up. But I can see. I can see tangible evidence there. I can see, you know, hope and progress there. So I'm like, does that make sense? And so I think that's what a lot of guys. That's the reason why you buy in and you really put that effort into it.
- [43:35]
D
Well, yeah, we can take that into the instructor world as well. I had the luxury enough of being around some amazing shooters, just trying to get better.
- [43:45]
C
Yeah.
- [43:45]
D
Another job. And it comes down to. All right, they're really good. You can impress the average guy with. All right. Lead by example. Right?
- [43:52]
C
Yeah.
- [43:53]
D
All right. Yep. That's impressive. All right. Shoot faster. That's kind of what a lot of my mentorship was.
- [43:59]
A
Yeah.
- [43:59]
D
Just shoot fast, no miss.
- [44:00]
A
Yeah.
- [44:00]
D
But I actually got to a point where we're bringing guys in, and once you get to that level, like his level, this level, you need a little more than that. Yeah. You know, to gain this much now, what are you going to bring to the table now? Now.
- [44:14]
C
Yeah.
- [44:15]
D
So it has to be more than, you know, you know, doing this fat. Just do this faster, too. All right, give me something. How do you articulate.
- [44:23]
C
Yeah.
- [44:23]
D
How you are doing that? Or give me a tool to. To change this.
- [44:26]
A
Yes.
- [44:27]
D
And that's what you got to bring to the table. That I appreciate. When people do, I'll actually be able to say, this was well into my career, and I'm. I'm getting. I'm confident. I'm. I'm in a solid spot. It might have been a 2 IC. You know, that's maybe eight years there. And we bring in a young guy. It was actually we got out of, like, the Paying the money for the, you know, the pro guys that are champions, you know, champions at whatever. Pistol rifle. But we brought in Daniel Horner from the army marksmanship unit. And I was cocky enough to be. I'm like, man, this is. I. I wasn't truly educated on how good they were. But not only how good he was. I mean, he. I was probably 32. I think he's my 26. Oh, he's young. At least he looked that way.
- [45:18]
B
Yeah, he still looks that way. I don't know. He still looks that way. I. I saw with Dan, but I feel like he's. He's done or something.
- [45:25]
D
Not only could he do that, he could tell. He told us how to, you know, how to do this. Whatever he's wanting us to do. Yeah, he could articulate it.
- [45:31]
A
Yeah.
- [45:32]
D
I still impressed with that for that. That one video.
- [45:35]
A
Yeah, that's a. And it is a gift, and I get to be around a lot. That's one of the, like, truly blessings of the position I have. And TTPOA, being the director of Region 7, and I'm bringing all these instructors in. I mean, all. I mean, from all walks of life and stuff.
- [45:51]
C
And.
- [45:52]
A
And when you see a really good instructor, man, it's. It's like. Like, it's easy to see. I mean, it's just. And then there's good instructors. You're like, man, they're. They're good, good. They're still building their craft. And then the really good instructors come in. You're like, damn. And then the next year, they come in, and the class that they're teaching for you, there's even more to it. Like, they've added to it because of what they have gained just in one year. And you're like, man, they're already at this level. Like, they are, but like you said, they're. They're trying to get better by, like, this much. Like, tenths of a percent. Like, the margin is so small, but yet it's so big to gain that just little edge, you know, if this year I can gain that much and be that much faster, that much more efficient, that's life saving.
- [46:40]
C
Yeah.
- [46:41]
A
I mean, tenths of a second matter. Like, so.
- [46:43]
D
Yeah.
- [46:44]
A
I definitely resonate when you say that.
- [46:46]
D
I've had the luxury now going on four years with a civilian, so you kind of never know what shows up. But at least I have a level 1, 2, and a 3 class on both sides. But you still end up with maybe somebody that is in a level two that should be in a level one. But, like, hey, really want the training.
- [47:02]
A
Yeah.
- [47:03]
D
And I'm like, all right. So I originally started this. I'm like, a night before, I'm writing my everything down, what I want to do, my poi. Everything. I'm doing a round count everything. A year later, this is how I run my ranges now. I. I know basically I've got eight or 10 drills that I want to do, do or that I can do. And this drives other instructors nuts. Yeah. I'll do the assessment for the class, and then. All right, this is our start point, and go from there. And then none of my classes are the same. And it'll, like, we'll progress.
- [47:35]
A
Yeah.
- [47:35]
D
And then we'll get to a point where the class is fallen, and I'm like, I have to back it off. Yep. But I hit that. I want to hit that before the mental fatigue sets in.
- [47:43]
A
Yeah.
- [47:44]
D
So I do end up with a lot of instructors, which is awesome because they're like, hey, you know, I want to improve as an instructor. I want to get new techniques, but some of them are like, oh, you should have did this. You should have this. But I like the. The fact that I can go and assess it and move with the civilian side.
- [47:59]
A
Yeah.
- [48:00]
D
And just kind of morph it as.
- [48:01]
A
We go for that. No, it is. And that takes a.
- [48:04]
D
Well, that.
- [48:05]
A
When you say that, I resonate with that as well. Like, I remember when I was young and. And starting dipping my toe in the training and stuff. It's like, all right, man, let. We're. I'd never recognize, man. There's just. These dudes are done right now mentally. I don't care what we're. They just. We're not gathering. We're not getting anything beneficial out of that. And then older you get, you're like, okay, you start sending. Like, you know what? Let's take a break. Or let's. Hey, let's reset. Let's check.
- [48:29]
D
Let's.
- [48:29]
A
Let's do something different now just to get your mind away from that. And. And. But that is a process, a journey on that one.
- [48:35]
D
And then teach, you know, let them know that, hey, this is what's going on.
- [48:38]
A
Yeah.
- [48:39]
D
How much if, you know. Know when you're going to hit this.
- [48:41]
A
Yeah.
- [48:41]
D
And then how much are you going to gain if you continue to, you know, put rounds down range?
- [48:46]
A
Yeah. Because you should be.
- [48:46]
C
Especially.
- [48:47]
A
You see it with these new guys that are coming and you're teaching them cqb.
- [48:49]
D
Because there's the mental saturation.
- [48:51]
A
Oh, my gosh. Because looking at. On paper, it's simple. Like, yeah, you go to that corner, you go to this corner. Okay. If you can't go, then you. Then you get two corners, and it's a square room. Okay. Like, there's dead space. Can someone be behind that door? Yes. So make sure you check.
- [49:05]
C
Check.
- [49:05]
A
That sounds simple. But then until you get in there, and then let's put some role players in there. Let's open up doors. Oh, man. You just see, it goes. The gears just grind.
- [49:16]
B
It does. Yeah. It doesn't. It. It. It doesn't look fluid.
- [49:20]
A
Yeah, no.
- [49:20]
B
You know, and, dude, I don't know. I used this analogy yesterday whenever I was doing my class, and I don't know if a few of the guys got a chuckle out of it. It's like, dude, like, it's, you know, like, CQB is an art form, man. It's like a culmination of multiple different skills all combined together to make something really, you know, really profound. You know, perform, happen, happen. Right. But you. I mean, some people would say dancing is an art form.
- [49:42]
A
Right.
- [49:42]
B
But if you do CQB by the numbers, just like, as if you're say, like, man, we're in Texas, man. Freaking square dancing.
- [49:48]
A
Yeah.
- [49:48]
B
If I say step one, step two, step three, step four. All right, this. On paper, it looks easy.
- [49:53]
A
Yes.
- [49:54]
B
But then why is it that I can't. You could. I could give you the paper, I show you the steps. But then whenever we say, hey, I'm gonna put a person right next to you, we're gonna put on some music.
- [50:04]
C
Music.
- [50:04]
B
And it just looks like. But it's. It's a feel, man. It gets. It's right like you. It is a matter of just when you. When you do it right, you're like. It feels like, you know, it Right. And then when you mess up, which, you know, if you're messing up, then you're pushing the limits, right?
- [50:21]
C
Yeah.
- [50:21]
B
But there's moments where you're like, I don't even, I don't even need to get to the end of this run before I know Rick's gonna tell me, like, hey, man, that was. I was like, I felt it.
- [50:29]
C
Well, I think experienced instructors or, you know, shooters, operators and anything like, like when you're, when you're watching it, you know, like each class you run, you run the same class back to back days. Like I do here in class. First class is different than the second class. And just to your point, I have my list of things I want to do. The drills, I may not get to all of them by the same time. I think I do on day one versus day two, because a whole different group of shooters, I may have to spend more time on this little thing here with them. And, and as an instructor, you had to pick up on that. You have to figure that out. And you're, you know, and the, the problems that you're having on day one is not the same thing that he's having on day two. And so that's the reason why you're there. That's the reason why they're paying for your class or whatever, is for you to be able to see that, diagnose it, and then tell them the reasons. Not only that, that it is wrong, but why it's wrong. And then how do you fix it? Because it's easy to sit there and go, you're not hitting what you're aiming at. Doesn't take an instructor to be able to figure that out. But why are you not hitting it? And then here's the three reasons that you're doing wrong. And then here's how I can help you to do that. That's what you're paying for. Yeah. And so, and then again, it goes translate to cqb, you know, and the CQB thing is it's, it's. I hate it because, you know, everybody argues about it. There's always, there's no, you know, there's no, I can't help the other people do it wrong kind of thing. And they do all these different stuff. I'm like, look, whatever you're doing back home, it works. But like, like you said, I came in, I moved one role player three feet to the right and just fell apart. Art. Because why? They want the easy answers. They want it black and white. Like, dude, it's all gray. Yeah, you got to be able to take. You said it's an art form and it's. I almost rather not know what it looks like. It's just organic, you know, I don't.
- [52:03]
A
Oh, yes.
- [52:04]
C
You know, unless you told me, like, if there's a hostage deal where I knew where they were and you can maybe push, you know, like a, you know, but as, just as a general rule, I'd rather be. Just don't know. You're just reading, reacting and it's organic and that's where. That's where the wheels come off, it falls apart, you know, but then again, that's where the, the instructor part comes out. So it's. We've had many talks up on the catwalk, you know, watching, and so I'm sure you guys can relate to that.
- [52:27]
A
Well, I think too. And we can go down that rabbit hole with the whole tactics and stuff, but to me, I always look at it as we can argue about tactics, but I think if you're going to argue about tactics, you got to understand all what's going on out there, what's being taught and understand, hey, this is podcast. This is strongville. This is, you know, limited, like understanding what it all means. So therefore, when you have a conversation, you know the why of what you're doing, you know the why, what they're doing, and you know, the pros and cons of everything. That to me, I think that's when you can have an intelligent argument and, and, and really have a discussion and not an argument, I guess, and stuff. I don't know what yalls thoughts on that.
- [53:11]
D
I think what translates that I've learned and obviously you guys already touched the why and I learned that maybe it took me a little while to learn that because you can teach where we were teaching and you don't really have to explain the why. It's like, this is the way we do it.
- [53:25]
A
Yeah.
- [53:26]
D
Now like you're getting out. And to have that respect, it goes a long way with, okay, this is what we're doing and this is the why behind. I take a lot of prime, especially the civilians. You can't argue with it. This is the why.
- [53:38]
A
Yeah.
- [53:38]
D
But also what is received really well is when it's not my way or it's if it's not my way, it's the wrong way.
- [53:47]
A
Yeah.
- [53:47]
D
And we take pride in that as well. It's like we aren't operating in absolutes.
- [53:51]
A
Yeah.
- [53:53]
D
This is not my opinion. We'll give it you a couple of different options that tactically Makes sense.
- [53:58]
C
Yeah.
- [53:59]
D
And put them in your tool bag and use them if you want. If they don't, if they make sense or not.
- [54:02]
C
Yeah.
- [54:02]
D
But it's not. And I. This is mine is like, we're not teaching opinions here here. So I think that resonates really well because we just.
- [54:10]
C
Yeah.
- [54:11]
A
Well, I think you could take from the community that you are in, you could take this one, set a cell, and then another cell, same exact floor plan. One team hits it, another team hits it, and they'll look a little different. It's all the Right. It's all the same. It's all a way to do it. Nothing's violated.
- [54:32]
B
You.
- [54:32]
A
You. You stuck with the. The sop, the template, but it just looked a little different because.
- [54:39]
D
Yeah.
- [54:40]
B
You.
- [54:40]
A
This half of the room did this. As opposed the last time. This half of the room didn't do this. And that. That side of the room did it.
- [54:47]
D
So.
- [54:47]
A
Or whatever the case may be.
- [54:48]
D
And articulates this very well. Go into your. What do you. You go into that. Oh, we hit it. We'll hit this 10 times. And then you say, there's not a perfect CB run. I like that. And we're going to do it the same or do different. It's not going to be the same way, but it's still going to be taxable.
- [55:02]
C
Not the way. It's a way.
- [55:03]
D
Yeah.
- [55:04]
B
In all our years, you know me, I've never seen a perfect CQB run. A perfect CQB run does not exist.
- [55:11]
D
No.
- [55:11]
B
It never exists. And you may have the perception that it is perfect. I mean, if you do think it's perfect, man, at the end of the day, they're like, you're not pushing yourself hard enough. Like, there should always be room for improvement. But I agree with what you're saying. Right. Because someone else would do it another way. And they are going to capitalize on a certain aspect of CQB that maybe they're a little bit better. But you, in this area, maybe you were a little bit better. Yeah. But at the end of the day, like, some people are, like, arguing about, like. And granted, there's some stuff that's, like, way out there. Yes, bro.
- [55:42]
A
Like running with your safety off, going in a room.
- [55:46]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [55:46]
A
That's stupid.
- [55:47]
B
Yeah.
- [55:48]
A
We're like, we're not doing that.
- [55:49]
D
No, no.
- [55:50]
B
Not at all. Right. And those things immediately call up. But there's sometimes, like, people are, like, arguing about splitting hairs, man. Yeah. And you know, like, I mean, dude, like, even at, like, upper levels, dude, like, you're never going to see it the same. Right?
- [56:03]
C
Yeah.
- [56:03]
B
So people are having this, like, same kind of. This, this same back and forth. Right. You know, but in, in, in a. For like a good purpose. So I, I say that with. I'm glad the community still kind of challenges things because they just like, hey, man, I. What about this? What about this? What I don't like is when it becomes vindictive. You know, it's like, hey, man, that's good, man. We're having a discussion. We're. That's how things happen. Right, Right. But it's like. But definitely, I would say, yeah. Call out the shit that's like, way out there.
- [56:28]
A
Yeah.
- [56:29]
C
Well, I think in any business, if you have a good understanding what you're doing, I think you have to be an expert. But you're sound in what you believe in your fundamentals, you know, and whether it be tactics, cqb, whatever business you're in, you're not challenged or worried about somebody else coming in. They may be a total different perspective. And that's fine. You can hear that. But I think what happens is the guys that are not unsure or they have a little bit of. I'm not really. You know, I think those are the ones that sometimes get offended because they're like, well, how dare you push back on me? This is what I was like, look, it's fine, you know, it's. You know, if it works for you, that's fine. Just be solid in what you do in your team. The team has to be solid together. Because if, you know, is that old for the weak link kind of thing, if the one guy that's bad will be the one that runs across the problem. Problem. You know, and so I, I see that a lot with guys.
- [57:18]
D
That's very common challenge. You're gonna run into that. And it's, it's that delicate balance to where you. You gotta keep this guy in the fight. You gotta like, hey, we're here to teach you. And he's, he's almost like, if you, you can't beat him up, you gotta bring him back. You gotta be delicate about. Because we just ran into that.
- [57:35]
C
Yeah.
- [57:35]
D
And in our local county, finally. We were trying to help him out, but he's not taken.
- [57:42]
B
And.
- [57:42]
D
Oh, yeah, he's taking my questions. Offense. Like it's an offense. I'm like, I had to tell him, like, hey, I'm just, I'm learning what your thought process. That's it. We're not, we're not trying to beat you up here. And Try to bring him back into the fight, because as soon as they turn that switch off up here, you lost him for the day.
- [57:58]
A
Yeah, well.
- [57:58]
C
And I tell him, I said, look, if I come to you in your place and you're putting on this training, whatever how you want me to do it, I will do that, because I want to hear what you have to say. That's all I ask for you back.
- [58:06]
A
Yeah.
- [58:07]
C
You know, and it's. Sometimes that's a heavy haul. Just get to get that.
- [58:11]
B
But I think kind of help breaking that wall down is. Is having an instructor that, like, can, like you said, articulate the why. Right. And then it just gets things, like, going a little like, you know, maybe that. Yeah, let me. Let me give that a shot. Right.
- [58:23]
C
Well, that's where the experience comes from. Here's. Here's a, you know, a scenario that this, you know, relates to.
- [58:29]
A
So, I mean, we. We still run into people that will. They are taught this. It's crazy that, hey, I'm going to the room. I'm flipping this safety off. Oh, yeah, I'm clearing a house with the safety off.
- [58:43]
D
I wanted to ask you about that.
- [58:44]
C
Yeah.
- [58:45]
D
Because that was actually is. That was happening recently as well. Yeah. I wasn't too passionate about one way other, but I. I'd asked one of the senior guys, and he's like, yeah, that's her. That's there. So that's an sop.
- [58:57]
A
Yeah.
- [58:58]
D
And I. I'm like, all right. I don't know if you noticed or not. Not everyone was doing it, which is kind of weird. If it's your sop, why is not everyone doing it?
- [59:06]
C
Yeah.
- [59:07]
D
But this is. We had to delicately. I had to delicately bounce that balance that one, too, because I want them to bring us back so we can entertain that stuff. Because. Right. We were just volunteering a time at that point for that. So we're like, hey, we're trying to get our foot in the door here.
- [59:20]
A
Yeah.
- [59:21]
D
So I don't want to, you know, ruffle any feathers and, you know, we're not here to turn your stuff upside down. Down. But you've seen that as well. That. That.
- [59:27]
A
Yeah, we do.
- [59:28]
C
Well, we talked about this.
- [59:28]
A
We talk about it.
- [59:29]
D
Yeah.
- [59:29]
C
That in the last few years, it is a systemic problem. And I've ruffled feathers because I told them we're not about that. Like, I will never support that. It's not in my time, believe me. People done a lot more stuff than I have, but I have never, ever seen it where it needed to be done. I would support that. I don't see any advantage to it. And in the world we live in and litigate society, you have to be aware of that in training. If you go out and train cops, you have to understand there's a liability along with that. Like, there's nobody going to come in the industry and support you and back you up on that. I'm aware of that's going to say, I support that. So, no, I, I got, I had an HR class I did a few years ago for a team I got brought down to do just for them. And they were doing that very thing. And after about 20 minutes, I was like, this is not just a one off. This guy keeps doing it. The group, inside the group, it was not just at one agency, There were several there. But they kept doing like, okay, stop, everybody. We're gonna get this out of the way right now because we're not going to continue on. They're like, mad. It's just like, we feel like it's better for us. We're ahead of the game, you know, and all this. And I'm like, it's not. And so I said, okay, y', all, keep it up and we'll prove it to you. So, you know, it's not hard to set somebody up to expose him for that. And we did it. And it was, it was a grind all three days. And, you know, and I, I said, look, you know, love you dudes. You know, I, I know some of them personally. Good guys. I said, but I, I don't support this. And I just really think you need to do it. I'm not trying to go down that rabbit hole. But it, it is, it is something in the last few years and Brandon, I've talked about in previous podcasts, it is something I am seeing that has come up spiked in the last few years much more than I've ever seen before.
- [61:02]
A
Yeah.
- [61:02]
B
Yeah, I guess it's weird to me, man, because like, if you look at, you look at the whole problem set holistically, like, guys are probably like, hey, how can I shave time off? Or whatever.
- [61:11]
C
What?
- [61:11]
B
I don't know. Whatever it is.
- [61:12]
A
But I'm like, exactly.
- [61:14]
B
Of all things, man, in that area. That's the, that's the, that's the point of like, dude, the point of no return, man. Once that, that round leaves that chamber, there is no take back. Right? Yeah. And I'm not saying that like, hey, man, yeah, you should have an awareness when you pull the trigger, but of all places that you want to shave time, that and all the things that you're doing navigating cqb, that's the place you choose.
- [61:33]
A
No, you're right.
- [61:34]
C
Well, it's easy to roll the safety off. Yeah, that's easy. It's hard to go and put time in on the range and doing, you know, and doing runs in the shootout. That's. That takes energy and effort. It's easy to roll safety off. Anybody do that?
- [61:44]
B
Yeah.
- [61:45]
A
Like, if you're wanting to save time, take five less bullets out. That's gonna be lighter. So now you can go up fat or whatever. I mean, stuff like that, you're like, really? I mean, that's like you said. How about you work on the hard skills of doing this stuff?
- [61:57]
B
Yeah.
- [61:57]
A
And then that covers everything else. And so. But. But yeah, you. You'll. You'll start seeing that more, especially when you.
- [62:03]
D
If you.
- [62:03]
A
When you're traveling the country with. With Le. And. And it's one of those deals where.
- [62:08]
B
Where.
- [62:08]
A
Now I know Matt's the same way. I'm like, no, we're not doing that. You go do it whenever you're doing it, but in this class, we're not running. I don't. It's. It's simmunition rounds or. Or it's an empty chamber. We're not doing that.
- [62:21]
B
Yeah, we are.
- [62:22]
D
We'll definitely get the opportunity to address this. And I do have an approach for it, and I do have a why, but I. I look forward to giving you the feedback. Yeah, no, when we do, let.
- [62:32]
B
Let them run a pace and throw some no shoots. In the movie.
- [62:36]
C
That's what I did. And it was the target they'd already shot. Just found another one that was in the same target, just a no shoot. And they came in there and got him.
- [62:42]
B
Yeah.
- [62:42]
C
And I was like, you know, look, we've all. We've all made our mistakes. I'm not saying that, but my point was, is that understanding that it's hard anyway, why make it harder? Why put that element of trouble for you? And I thought they were gonna get jumped in the parking lot after day one.
- [62:59]
A
Well, I think we've all. We've. We've probably all done it. I know I've done it. I couldn't tell you how many times over my career, either in training or real life. You come in and you see something, and as you're coming up, you flip it off safely, thinking something. All of a sudden you're like, oh, you know, I'm back on safety. Because that was not a shoot deal. That was someone who Just turned around or whatever the case may be.
- [63:19]
B
Just reaching for something.
- [63:20]
A
Yeah.
- [63:20]
C
Oh, shit.
- [63:21]
A
You're coming up and then you're off of it. Like, that's part of the. Of the quote, the sop. It should be not, oh, I'm just gonna go off just because I see somebody. And that's just what I'm always doing, doing and stuff.
- [63:32]
C
Well, Eddie mentioned earlier about training speed. You know, like, you like bench pressing, whatever you want to try to do more to figure out what that number is, what your speed is. If it's 88, I'm good at.
- [63:42]
A
Yeah.
- [63:42]
C
If I'm a 93, I'm over running targets. I'm misassessing, so I got to stay 88, 89. But you need to know that. But if you stay at 65 all the time, you'll never get better. You'll never figure out where you are. And that's where guys, I think, especially when you're doing classes where people are watching and they're like, I don't to want to get embarrassed or I don't want to, you know, do this. I'm like, I want you to. Look, I promise you're not gonna fail the class if you do this. Yeah. If you're doing a full speed and you're trying, dude, you're good. It's the guys that are hanging out in the back that don't want to make the mistakes. Like, I'm sorry, I can't use.
- [64:10]
B
They want to be the gray man.
- [64:11]
D
Yeah.
- [64:11]
B
Hey, I want to be. I want to be number three. Number four.
- [64:14]
C
Yeah.
- [64:14]
B
You know, like all the time, you.
- [64:15]
C
Know, I'm like, do you think we don't see that? Like, I promise you, everybody here sees that.
- [64:19]
A
Dudes like, come on. So you're like, was so and so even at practice today, I'm like, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That means something. Like, huh. So what has been. And. And. And talk. Constructive criticisms. Whatever word you want to use has been in your experience. Coming from the mill side now teaching le, I'm sure there's been some, like, what the. Because I know I have with friends of mine or things. I'm like, listen, we just need to give them a do not enter patch, and then you pass, buddy. And it's not talking. It's not talking on somebody. It's just like that maybe you don't need this class. Like, you need to do some other things before you get to this level or whatever, especially when it comes to CQB and things like that. So what's been. Yalls. Experience of coming in from. I mean you're training with guys that are. No, I mean like it's. It's the top level guys. So now you're coming down and going holy, man. I'm sure there was some. What's going on here?
- [65:20]
D
I'm gonna have to. If you got some. Yeah, if you got something. I'm gonna think about that for a minute. You're talking about like a.
- [65:26]
A
Just overall in general, like something that stuck out. Yeah. Just coming into training law enforcement. Like, man, you know what, these guys do this really well. Or wow, I was not expecting this from law enforcement. Or I had this thought process and now what I'm seeing is this. Or you know what, Know what? Every class is so different and the skill levels are all over the place or whatever that could be.
- [65:50]
D
I can start. Yeah, I can now. Thanks for that direction. I can start with my first exposure. And this is shortly before I started working with Ed. It was. I'd done a little bit of work with the locals. You know, lack of resources. Really just the volunteer stuff.
- [66:05]
C
Yeah.
- [66:05]
D
So the first really good trip is down in South Florida. And these guys were. I showed up right away way and I was noticing these guys are looking. They're showing up looking like pipe swingers. They're in shape. They have their kit looks squared away. It's really nice. And this is going to be going the other way. It was like we started at such a higher level than what I thought they were going to be able to even obtain at the end of the week. So from the other side of that perspective, by the end of our training we had. It was like they had that I was for once I was impressed with. They wanted a range day. So that's another challenge that I find myself is, you know, we get. We want to do cqb one do cqb. But I bring up let's do some flat range training. Yeah. That's like we get, you know, we're hitting the brakes on that for some reason and I'm still trying to figure that one out.
- [66:58]
A
But you will, you will continue to try to figure that one out.
- [67:01]
D
Okay. These guys were on the range. We had a, you know, know range day right off the bat and then, you know, dry fire security. Right. The next day we're doing a different house is coming together. At the end of the week, I'm looking at my other training partner and it's like watching our guys go down and clear this hospital. So I was thoroughly impressed.
- [67:22]
A
Yeah.
- [67:22]
D
But I know now I know where we can get.
- [67:25]
A
Yeah.
- [67:26]
D
At this level.
- [67:27]
A
Yeah, yeah. There's going to see. You're going to see a lot. And it's funny, like, a lot of. A lot of folks don't want the range part of that CQB because I think it exposes them even more or they think they, they have the skill set to do that. And so they just, they're on. They're on their own world. Because guys who really want to go on the range and combine the CQB part of it, they're. They know they're still not there because no one ever thinks you're all. You're there. Like, you're always on this shooting journey. Journey. So you're like, I want to go out there.
- [68:03]
B
Okay.
- [68:03]
A
I want to be able to continue to push this limit at the range and then also take that and put it in the cqb. Because to me, the CQB is the cqb. The shooting part should already be there. Like, you got to have that there. But when you're coming in assessing, like, hey, man, there's no way you're going at that speed because I saw you shot on the range and you were setting, not moving, and you couldn't even keep it in the a box in 10 yards. So what makes you think you're going to keep it in a box box and 10 yards? And now we're moving this direction and now you're having to shoot back, you know, back to your left. Because when you came in, that's where the target was. So what makes you think you're gonna do this now? And oh, yeah, we got simulation. So we're brave warriors with simmunition.
- [68:42]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [68:43]
A
So I think that's where the kind of. That comes in from. What I've seen a lot.
- [68:47]
C
Yeah.
- [68:47]
D
I would like to think it's not a pride thing, but that's probably what it comes down to and just, you know, don't want to be. Maybe it's, you know, an intimidation thing because they assume what level that we're at and we're gonna be embarrassed. Yeah, they're going to be embarrassed. But also, you know, I mentioned this yesterday, the accountability that I'm already seeing potentially. It's not. When we go to the sim game.
- [69:11]
A
Yeah.
- [69:12]
D
So we're doing fine. All of our dry fire stuff already progressed just the other month to sims.
- [69:17]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [69:17]
D
All right. You guys are in like fifth sixth gear here.
- [69:20]
C
This is.
- [69:21]
D
You need to drop it down.
- [69:22]
A
Yeah.
- [69:23]
D
And tell them talking, like, slow down.
- [69:25]
A
Yeah.
- [69:26]
D
You know, don't don't worry. Headlights for one. Oh, I forgot to mention their targets. They showed up with already shot up targets.
- [69:33]
A
So you have no idea.
- [69:36]
D
Yeah. So we know their accountability is not where it needs to be. So. Yeah, like, hey, from now on, you know, put. We're hanging clean targets, and I'm not even gonna hold this for me at the end of this run gun. We're gonna go back through every room, and everyone's gonna account for each round.
- [69:50]
A
Yeah.
- [69:50]
D
Now you're gonna have to slow down to make that happen. And by the way, you know your shots, like, for example, half of the shots are on the gun or below the gun. I'm like, whoever's shooting this, you're not processing what's going on three or four steps before you do this.
- [70:04]
A
Yeah.
- [70:04]
D
But you're wanting to put the safety on. On fire before you even.
- [70:08]
C
Yeah.
- [70:08]
D
All right, where's the. What is there a threat right now we're gonna engage this, right?
- [70:13]
C
Threat.
- [70:13]
A
Yeah.
- [70:13]
D
What's my cqb? Hold off.
- [70:14]
C
Yeah.
- [70:15]
D
Right. So you're doing all that and you're. You're gonna outrun yourself.
- [70:17]
A
Well, I think that's great that, that y' all are holding guys accountable for their rounds. I'm keep pushing that.
- [70:23]
C
I know, I know.
- [70:24]
A
When we teach, you know, our deal is, hey, man, upper A zone box. You know, this is.
- [70:29]
C
This is.
- [70:29]
A
This is that half of the a zone that we want. Here's the scheming system to do that. You know, look at what you're looking at. You know, right above this level, you're going to shoot right here. And now when we're down here or over here. Okay. What input did you put in that gun that caused you to do that? And you should be pretty. You should know when you throw that shot, especially in this 7 yard, 10 yard or whatever. And the reason why. But I think that that starts building in that. That culture of I'm accountable in this house. Even though they're paint and I need to know what that speed is, I need to know what I'm. My abilities are and stuff like that. Because, I mean, a guy who's on the team for one year and a guy who's on the team for 10 years, and that guy from 10 years has been grinding his ass, he's going to naturally just move faster and shoot faster.
- [71:12]
B
Yeah.
- [71:13]
A
So there's going to be a lot of different levels in there, but you're all making enter in this house at the same time. So he also has to understand where he's at. And that goes back to the training accountability and giving them schemes to, to, to, to. To work out that process and things like that. So I'm glad you are doing that.
- [71:30]
D
They were really receptive to it. I was cautiously approaching that because obviously this is completely new for them. Yeah, yeah. But we only had them for half a day.
- [71:38]
A
Yeah.
- [71:38]
D
And by the end of the day, they were running their own AR and they were actually going on like, all right, we're checking their shots.
- [71:43]
A
I think what I've seen from, from when, when, when groups come in, because CQB is that, that, that really hard one to, to completely go, hey, you, y' all group came in, you're teaching our team now. We're going to switch everything to the way you are teaching. That's, that's, that's a heavy lift, hard thing. Not too many.
- [72:03]
C
Not.
- [72:03]
A
It doesn't happen that often when it comes to someone just switching everything up. But what I do see, when teams or students come to a class, they take some things. When you, when you can logically put it out there, like, here's the, here's the methodology of why we teach what we teach. So, like, being accountable for your rounds. Hey, here's the process we go to, you know, whatever that is and you're like explaining it to them, they can easily take that back. And whatever tactic you're running, you can still keep that accountability and that mindset of, hey, we got to be accountable for rounds. Here's what we're looking for. Here's what is acceptable, here's what's A plus. Here's what's an A, here's what's a B, here's what's not acceptable. And kind of give them a template to run back to or, or like door procedures. Like, hey, you know what? Our door pleasers this. And then you show them a new doorway, procedures that they can implement in their team. That's something. That's an easy switch and easy change. So that's where I see, see when good instructors are coming in that have a program that they can adapt a few things like that, like when y' all teach the hostage rescue, not everybody's going to go back and do the exact movement in the house. But the process of going, hey, you know what? When we went to this class, we were taught, when we have the opportunity to jump on this and we know that, hey, the hostage taker is in this side of the room and we have the opportunity to separate the hostage and the hostage takes speaker, we're going to jump on that, regardless of what tactic you're using, but you're giving those that training points to drive home, to go back. Hey, you know what? This is what we need to be doing. So I think that's where companies come in and can really make an impact on that.
- [73:38]
B
Yeah, yeah, no, I think, you know, I totally agree, because there's things that, like, you know, moving from one team to another, different platoon, one is like, there was, like, goods and bads. Right. That you just slowly adopted. Right. And, yeah. You know, you kind of inherit a little bit from, you know, what's kind of almost somewhat, I guess, dictated by people who are wiser than you.
- [73:56]
A
Yeah.
- [73:56]
B
You kind of try it out, and then when you get into that position. But just being the exposure is. Is definitely a good thing, you know, but, you know, when you say, like, hey, you know, being accountable for this, you know, things that really even matter, you know, talking about the shots and things that were like, safety matters. Right.
- [74:11]
A
Yeah.
- [74:12]
B
You know, if we were talking truly talking about accountability, we need to figure out ways how you keep that a very objective thing.
- [74:18]
A
Yeah.
- [74:18]
B
Rather than subjective. You know, it's like, okay, yeah. Hey, man, you know. You know, you missed these shots. We're like, okay, do we just say that that's it, you just missed the shots, and that's it? Like, how are we holding that person accountable?
- [74:29]
C
Right.
- [74:29]
B
Like, sometimes the team will make them accountable, and it feels shitty.
- [74:33]
A
Yeah.
- [74:33]
B
But at some point, man, it's like, bro, like, you got. You got to fix it.
- [74:38]
A
Yeah.
- [74:39]
B
Or if you can't, like, you're done.
- [74:41]
A
Yeah.
- [74:42]
B
And if you don't do that, then there's nothing really inherently that's creating a little bit of, like, the. The fear that I got to fix myself.
- [74:48]
A
Yeah. Well, I think, like you said. Said you missed the shot.
- [74:51]
D
What the.
- [74:52]
A
You missing a shot for? Okay, yeah. In your team environment, you can. You can do that a little bit more, but also, you better follow that up. Like, hey, what. What were you looking at? What happened on that one? Like, oh, yeah, you know what? I looked up and I saw a gun, and I just. I didn't. I didn't see anything else, and that's why I shot him right here in the arm. Yeah. You know what? You're right. So now you know what you can fix. Now you know that, what the problem is. There's. Sometimes you're like, man, I don't know what happened, man. Okay, well, you don't know what happened on that one. But it's. It's getting that process of starting to diagnose why you did something wrong. That. That's the. That's the huge part right there.
- [75:25]
B
Yeah. Self diagnosed, man. Yeah, absolutely. Like, you. You're like, man, I messed up. And, you know, you knew it, right? Yeah, I don't know. Have you ever seen the movie Whiplash Talking about that drummer? Oh, man, it's. It's a good movie. But basically, this professor, he's like a. He's like a band like, you know, teaches at the upper most elite level, and he only brings in the best of the best. And he's like, you know, the band's playing, and all of a sudden, like, he just hears. And obviously he's the lead of the elite. He just could hear it. And he's like, dude, somebody's out of tune here. And he's like, all right, you guys play real quick. I'm like, nope. All right, it's not over here. You guys play. All right, it's either one of you two. And he has them both play. And he's like, hey, you get out of my. Get out of my band. Like, right now. No calls. Calls one of them out. He's like, get out of my band. He's like, do you know why you're out of tune? He's like, are you choosing to be out of tune or why are you out of tune? Tune. And he's very timid.
- [76:15]
A
Yeah.
- [76:15]
B
And he just gets his stuff and he leaves, and then he closes his door and he sits dressing the rest of the band. And he's like, actually, he was not of tune. You were out of tune. The guy who stayed, he goes, but here's the problem. He goes, the. He goes, I don't know what's worse, being out of tune or not knowing that you're out of tune.
- [76:31]
A
Oh, wow.
- [76:32]
B
Not knowing is worse.
- [76:34]
A
Yeah.
- [76:34]
B
Yeah.
- [76:35]
A
No, it's funny that you say that, is that one of my big things is when we're teaching and our SWAT guys and going through basics, what for our guys? And you have them, you're invested in. These guys always say, man, you're gonna mess up, obviously, and stuff. But when you don't know, when you mess up and you continue to do that, there's a problem there.
- [76:54]
C
Yeah.
- [76:54]
A
Because a guy who does it, and right when he does, man. Or you see his body language change because he's like, yep, I missed that open door, and I know it. Or that you see, the guy just walks right past open door, and he's just staring that corner, corner. And then he gets to the corner. And then he turns and starts skating the room, and he. He has no idea what he just did. And it's day three. That's like you said. That's when there's like, man, this guy has a processing problem.
- [77:19]
B
Yeah.
- [77:20]
A
And he ain't gonna cut it. Like, he's.
- [77:22]
B
It's. It's the tunnel vision, right?
- [77:23]
A
Yeah. We can't fix this.
- [77:24]
D
This becomes obvious right away. And in the beginning, it's though. It gets sorted out really fast because, you know, you're like, all right, go to your points of domination. And sometimes there's a guy, like, he's. He didn't know where he was. He was.
- [77:38]
A
What's that?
- [77:39]
D
No, he knows what it is. But I mean, even if we're, you know, one or two rooms deep, he's looking around like, I can't remember where I was in this room.
- [77:47]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [77:47]
D
It becomes very obvious that the processing ability.
- [77:50]
B
Yeah.
- [77:51]
D
Is not. It doesn't come with everybody.
- [77:53]
A
No, it doesn't.
- [77:54]
B
It was. It was this weird thing that we would do, like, on the back end, right. It's like, hey, you run through the whole house. All right, hey, we're gonna go ahead and run through it all. Like, you know, just walk, talk through, like. And we'd go back through in reverse. Everybody stand in your points of domination. And some guys, it would be like, I stood here like, no, man, you weren't there. And that was like the first indication we don't have to run through the house. Like, it almost doesn't. It. Yeah, the instructor doesn't even have to tell you. You already know. Like, dude, if I. If I don't know and we're both standing the same point of domination. Somebody's up here. Yeah, but those are those things, man. It's the over processing. Right. But it's weird because the same guys who will say, like, they're over processing, or sometimes the guys who are very overly critical of that, flipping the, you know, the weapon on safe and, you know, whatever. And around fire, you know, it's like, well, dude, you don't even have any room to talk.
- [78:41]
C
Yeah. Like.
- [78:42]
B
But, yeah, I think. I think it's over processing. And then too, like, guys out running their headlights. It's good to like, you know, want to run speed, but, you know, if you're not there, like, hey, let's. Let's progress to that. I'm not saying to not induce stress inoculation because it's absolutely necessary. Necessary. Because that's where. I mean, that's where the freaking The. The magic happens, right? Like, you get to really test that person's ability.
- [79:05]
A
No, sure.
- [79:06]
B
But, dude, like, there was like. I mean, whenever, like, you know, Rick was my instructor, like, going through. Like, we were. We're doing multiple things. All right, hey, like, now we're at breach, whether explosive or ballistic. All right, now we're going in the house, like, multiple different targets, you know, and going through. And, you know, all of a sudden, like, freaking air horn goes off.
- [79:24]
A
Beep, beep.
- [79:24]
B
And I'm like, dude, just like, freeze.
- [79:26]
C
Just stop.
- [79:27]
B
And it was like, Rick, like, Ed knocked down your target. Son of a. It's like that. I mean, it was just told to you. They were. Once you go through, you knock down your target, and then you keep moving forward and keep progressing, and then go into the next room, do everything right. I'm like, dude, I just killed it, man. I know, I know, I know.
- [79:44]
C
I hit it.
- [79:44]
B
A zone, like, tight, you know?
- [79:46]
C
Yeah.
- [79:46]
B
And then all of a sudden, beep. Look up the catwalk. Ed, knock down your. I'm literally standing next to the thing. It's right here.
- [79:53]
C
Right.
- [79:54]
B
But, you know, you had those things that called you out. Like, it's like, hey, man. Like, you gotta fix it. Like, it's. We're not, we're not gonna let you run through the whole thing and then just say it and then just keep moving on. Like, hey, we're gonna, like, you're. You're creating this thing, right? It's almost, dude, it's to the point of, like, it created, like, trauma for me. Like, I hear an air horn. I'm the one who's blowing the airborne now, dude, I, I, I freeze as the instructor.
- [80:16]
A
Oh, it's like a dog whistle.
- [80:18]
C
Well, I think, because you can relate back to, like, you know, how hard it is, you know, the challenge. You know, when you hear that, you're like, man, you know, you know, you, you know something's wrong. But at the same time, I guess you can appreciate, you know, the effort, you know, that's going into that, because I think, you know, we talked about earlier, like, why something's wrong. You crawl, walk around. Like, it's hard to hold you accountable if I don't tell you what those things are.
- [80:41]
B
Yeah.
- [80:41]
C
And so I think a lot of times when training, we do a lot of times with out of town guys, they've never really been talked to in articulation, why that is wrong or what, you know? And so he's like, do this, like, okay. But, like, when you're not there, because you're not gonna be back home with them when they're home. Wherever home is. For those guys, they're the answer. They're the SWAT team.
- [81:01]
D
Yeah.
- [81:01]
C
They're not gonna have you or you or anybody else there to tell them to explain to them. So they not only just the how to do it, but the why. And I think I mentioned this earlier, and I think it goes back into, like, you hear the airborne, like, why knock over that thing? Well, why he's telling you that is because he knows. Knows in real life why it matters or down range why it's going to matter.
- [81:19]
A
Yeah.
- [81:19]
C
And so they're instilling those basic. So I think everybody wants to come in. They see Instagram, they want to shoot fast, they want to do all this stuff. But is what's high speed. Perform the basics on demand. Because, you know, and having an opportunity to talk to people like yourselves and other guys in that net realm, they're like, matt, it's all about the basics. If no matter how good athlete you are, what you can do, if you. If you cannot handle that, it will. Eventually it'll crumble underneath you. That's that fair to say?
- [81:46]
B
No, Absolutely. Yeah. Because you're, you know, the. The more that you try to, like, push things at speed and you're, like, neglecting the fundamentals. Like, now, like, now that thing that you're forging becomes harder and harder, right? Because now, like, you're, like, you're pushing a lot of, like, heat and, like, whatever it is, and now you're molding that into, like, a thing. Now trying to break that is going to become more difficult. But if you're like, hey, man, I'm gonna do things. Fundamentals, nice and easy.
- [82:08]
A
Yeah.
- [82:09]
B
I mean, I remember, you know, just going through as a candidate, you know, with. With Rick, dude, like, days, man. I already been in the army for over a decade, right? And why am I spending days doing Dry Fire on a Wall? Like, all, like, we're like. We all came from very, like, yeah. Good organizations, right? And we're just doing this. And I'm like, hours, bro.
- [82:31]
D
And I'm like, how do you think we felt? Oh, dude, I'm sure. Watch me do it. Two and three, four classes.
- [82:37]
B
Yeah, but you see that and. And what? That.
- [82:41]
C
That's a long day.
- [82:42]
B
Those are one of those things where it's like, you never. You never really think that. And some people probably do, you know, who may know people, but like, dude, at that level, right, like, there's the fundamentals that are always ingrained you know, like, yeah, man, you came from this organization, you know, over 10 years or 12 years or whatever it is, but here we're trying to re, break that thing into something new and make you better. And that's where like, Rick really brings that unique eye of like, hey, like, not only can I see that from just a very kind of like, hey, clean slate individual off the streets, man, but I can dissect it. Right. We can have a closer eye at this level. Right. You know, it's like you're not paying your everyday physician to tell you, yeah, you have a cold. No, I'm telling you like this, These are the things that like give you the laundry list of. This is what you're allergic to. These are the things that are happening. That's what you're paying.
- [83:30]
A
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Go ahead, man.
- [83:32]
C
I was gonna say, I'm actually so from a perspective, once you get into, you know, and you're up there into the, the levels that you guys rose and now you have that, that responsibility of younger guys coming up, you know, where was the challenge or how much was the challenge to, to throttle them down to like, hey, you got to work on this. And then it's, to me, I feel like it's, it's, it's a constant. I'm all, you're just always on the throttle. We need to be here, we need to do this. You know, you're challenging them, but you're not, not running them in the ground. You know, does that make sense? Yeah, you have to. And everybody's different.
- [84:03]
D
Yeah.
- [84:03]
C
And I think as a leadership, as a trainer, you, you take each individual by themselves because their own problem.
- [84:10]
A
Yeah.
- [84:10]
C
And you're always, does that make sense? And so, you know, can you elaborate on that?
- [84:14]
B
Yeah, yeah. No, I think you look at just a new person who even comes into your organization or like the organizations that we've like served, man, it's like you, you struggle, man, because you, you got there. Yeah. But then like now like, dude, you're, you're my new baseline.
- [84:29]
C
Yeah.
- [84:29]
B
So now I'm trying to keep up with you.
- [84:31]
A
Yeah.
- [84:32]
B
But what I don't know is that I, I'm not there yet. Yeah. I'm truly not there yet. I'm not. I like that, that, that's going to require a process. So sometimes it's like, man, I like, and sometimes it's for good reasons. It's like, dude, I, I, I gotta, I gotta keep my head above water. I gotta keep up. I gotta keep up. Right. But it's like you do that sometimes at your own detriment, man. Because you're like, like you're losing things. You're not like allowing the other things to process. Like it took you years together. It took you years.
- [84:58]
C
Yeah.
- [84:59]
B
Like appreciate that. It's going to take some time. So yeah, it has been like hey.
- [85:03]
C
Man, like I'm still working on it.
- [85:04]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [85:05]
A
Like dude, it was I think too too. When you're, when you like you said, when you've been working on this for years and, and, and you're instructing and you see a guy and you know there's different, there's all levels of, of skill set on your, on your team and personalities and all that kind of stuff. But when you see things that, that someone's doing and you as an instructor you have to point that out because you're like if you continue to do that little small thing. It's a small thing. Really not you're like eh, it's not. But you know if you continue to do that that bad habit that is going to put in that person is going to be detrimental. And if they just think that what they're doing is right and it never gets corrected, they just I'm not doing anything wrong. And I think that's too is a fine line of two like man. Of making someone feel like you're just nitpicking them as opposed to being like hey, I know this is a small deal and you probably didn't even realize this but trust me on this. Because of the fuck ups that I had. I know this is going to be a problem. If you continue to do this.
- [85:58]
C
You know it's wrong because you've been proven by yourself. Absolutely.
- [86:02]
B
It's only a matter of time. Like, I mean dude, like case in point. Dude, I have two, two young daughters. 17, 16 year old. One was driving over the fucking no in her tire for weeks. Never told me anything.
- [86:13]
C
Yeah.
- [86:14]
B
And she's like, yeah, I thought it was okay. It's like, it's just, it's a tiny nail.
- [86:17]
D
It could still drive, man.
- [86:20]
B
It's a, it doesn't pose a problem until it does. When it does catastrophic. But it goes back into that sense of like that's where the wisdom and the maturity level. Right. Because they don't, they don't see it from the same lens that you do.
- [86:33]
C
Yeah.
- [86:34]
B
But it goes back to like, you know, like trying to relate. Like this is, this is where it's happened. Maybe not always for me. Right. But you know, people that you've seen. And that's how you try to, like, mentor them as they navigate the tactical realm. And we're still doing it the same thing, man. Dude, the CQB has never, like. I mean, the. The battlefield, regardless of domestic or internationally, is constantly evolving. We all know this, man. Adversaries and criminals are always trying to find a way to get ahead, man. So, like, what you kind of see is, like, the way you tackle the problem today is. Is good to try to stay ahead of it. But I, you know, like, it may not look like that, like, three, four years from now, and you're always. And that' what do I appreciate about, like, the challenges that people have in. In a very kind of constructive manner? Because if you do that right, like, that's, that's. That's keeping us, like, aware as opposed to just letting it be something that just dies in the background.
- [87:24]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I think going back to what we were talking about, like, there's been times on. On our team where we've had practices, and so there. There's no. There's no. If something doesn't work out, no one's getting hurt. There's no hostage loss, there's no, whatever, bad guy, anything like that. So you see, like. Like, young leaders stepping up or young team leaders or assistant team leaders, and they're planning something, and you're watching it and you're going, yeah, that's not gonna be good.
- [87:50]
D
Like.
- [87:51]
A
But I don't say anything. I'm like, you'll need to learn that. Yeah, what a better environment to learn. And then afterwards, they're like, so what? Hey, what would you change different? And usually what they change different is the stuff that I was like, yeah, that's not going to work. And they're like, why don't you say, like, you got to learn it. You need to learn it here in this environment. It's like, instead of making a deal on a real op and no one calls you on it, or you just think, this is the way it goes. And so. And there's been other times where I'm like, well, that did work. Like, I didn't think about it that way like that. So there. There. There is a. Like, yeah, it's a learning process. I mean, I'm not. I don't know every thing.
- [88:22]
B
Yeah, no, I think it's a real fine balance of, like, you as, like, you know, like, the. The leader or, you know, wherever you follow yourself. The mentor, right. Is like, what will I allow? Is like, hey, this is where I step in. Or this is where I'm gonna let them fall on their ass.
- [88:33]
D
Right.
- [88:34]
B
Because I guarantee if I let my daughter for. And experience a flat tire, and you're changing that on your own, you're gonna remember it. Yeah, but, you know, finding that fine balance is. Is extremely crucial because, yeah, man, I mean, like, like I said at the very beginning of this, dude, I've failed more than I've ever succeeded. You know, I was like. And probably going to continue to. There's going to be other. Other moments that life will test us all, man. Like, yeah, you're going to fail, but, you know, it's like how quickly you can you recoup from that. And that's like, what happens, like, in. In. In the tactical realm or even what we're dealing with, like, domestic, basically, with how we respond to, like, you know, perpetrators and criminals and adversaries. Right. It's like, yeah, there's something that's going to happen, but how long do you stay in that kind of, like, complacent, you know, state of mind and real quickly be able to, like, meet the demand?
- [89:20]
A
Yeah.
- [89:21]
B
And it's like, yeah, you're gonna mess up, man. You, like. You find out that you messed up in this room, well, freaking hurry up and get to the next one and fix it, you know, so.
- [89:28]
D
All right.
- [89:29]
A
Yeah, so let's hit on your company. So I walked down, ran into y' all yesterday. I was like, man, there's all kinds of people that you have kind of on board with this. So how many. How many on the. On the team that. That you have? And. And what's that look like for you as far as running it and what, like, what classes do y' all teach and what are y' all trying to get into? Yeah, yeah.
- [89:48]
B
So, you know, we have a. A broad breadth of, like, different guys, you know, so people who have performed at, like, our level. You know, both Rick and I guy. And then I also have another buddy of mine, Robert Regent. Robert was my first team leader whenever I was, like, before I went to the Ranger Regiment.
- [90:04]
A
Okay.
- [90:04]
B
You know, so when I left, you know, very, like, very short time young, E4, I, you know, I went to the Ranger Regiment. He went nypd.
- [90:11]
A
Okay.
- [90:12]
B
Became NYPD Detective.
- [90:13]
A
Okay.
- [90:14]
B
Really, really great, great human being, man. Great leader. But he brings. He brings that aspect of kind of, like, being able to understand you and educate us, like, in the absence of, like, whenever we're kind of. Of, like, having, you know, being able to interact with you guys.
- [90:26]
A
Yeah.
- [90:27]
B
So it. It helps in that regard. Right? Because I think, like, the things that he's told me, the experiences you have, I'm like, wow, dude.
- [90:33]
C
I would have.
- [90:33]
B
The way that you guys have to read human behavior in a very split second. I mean, we're doing that, but sometimes we go into it with, like, we already know that this is a bad guy, right? Yeah, but you guys. I mean, the switch could happen at any moment, man. You know, so, like, extreme, you know, profound respect. And he's constantly like, you know, even. Even, you know, being here. Ttpo. Ttpoa. You know, like, I'm hearing more and more stories and it's like, like, dude, yeah. But, you know, Rob brings that aspect. You know, we have people who have, you know, executive protection background. We're all military veterans. Right. But all different facets of what we can kind of provide not just strictly just to the law enforcement community, but also to just like, you know, everyday citizens, first responders, you know, just. Even. Even just your civilians are like, hey, man, I see this as a. Is. Is where I want to kind of protect the people around me, you know, and then we have another human, human intelligence person. Person, you know, Jed Perkins. He's done work at. At the highest levels. So you look at, like, kind of like what we do, and it's like, hey, there was always kind of like a full circle. Like, we do what we do on. On. At the ground level. But it's like, what. What happens when we get that information, right? And how does it kind of correlate into feeding into the next thing, you know, that find, fix, finish, like, exploit, analyze. Right? And we know that it's very different for the law enforcement, right? But it's like. Like now. Now we want to be able to provide a version of that that's relative to you guys to say, like, hey, man, like, this is what we had to deal with. And like, how does that feed into what's going to. What's happening in our communities? Right, and being able to build upon, like, how you guys can, like, you know, target the. I say target the enemy. I don't want to use that term, but be able to kind of have an awareness of what the, you know, what your adversary is doing out there.
- [92:10]
A
Yeah.
- [92:10]
B
So he brings that full package perspective.
- [92:13]
A
Well, that's good. And y' all travel anywhere to go teach?
- [92:17]
D
Yeah, yeah.
- [92:17]
B
You know, we've done stuff up in New York, Florida. We'll be back here doing Houston SWAT in June, you know, so that's going to be a great experience, man. Doing an NVG course with Those guys deal, you know, and trying to, like I said, really continue to build upon the cqb. But now do it under. Under nods.
- [92:32]
D
Yeah.
- [92:33]
B
And then, yeah, we'll be doing some other work in Louisiana.
- [92:35]
A
So is that a. For Houston swatter? Is that an open enrollment class for.
- [92:38]
B
Tpoa, Just Houston swat.
- [92:40]
A
So some of the goes. Okay, good.
- [92:41]
C
Yeah.
- [92:41]
B
Yeah. But, you know, as like, we, you know, our relationship continues to grow with TTP way and it's been really, like, amazing with all you guys. Like, now we're just like, hey, where. Where are we going to start putting in those. Those courses, you know, moving forward? So, you know, very, you know, it could. It could be as baseline as, like, hey, you know, just, you know, basic level, pistol, rifle. Hey, we want to do dynamic. If it's relative to the department to say we are going to do hr, CQB be all right if we want to do some kind of human intelligence kind of like instruction or lecture or kind of like build upon those things, we have an ability to do that as well. So, like, yeah, I think there's. Even within what we. We. We. We provide there's ability for our resources to reach, you know, span across that, to give you at. At the top tier level. Those, Those. Those challenges and experiences.
- [93:29]
A
And are y' all, like, so would a team need to be if they got with y' all and said, hey, we want to do CQB courses and it's a team they would have to do. Y' all adapt to what that team is running. Or you're like, hey, this is what we teach. Pods, army, what we. What we know or do y' all like, hey, we can tailor it to what yalls are doing or how's that work for y'? All?
- [93:51]
B
It's. It's. You know, that's a very unique question, man. It's. It's a. It's a fine blend. Right. You want to touch up on that?
- [93:57]
D
Yeah, a little bit. I can. We'll. We'll take the time once we get. He'll get a baseline from. From the leader on. On a start point.
- [94:04]
C
Yeah.
- [94:04]
D
And then we will validate what level that they say they're at before we progress. We're gonna take the time to learn what they have and why they're doing it.
- [94:13]
A
Yeah.
- [94:13]
D
If it's something I. We haven't really seen anything to wazoo. Okay. Right. It's. It's. I think everyone's leaning forward on training nowadays, so. But we will take the time to learn, establish the baseline and then progress from there, progress that.
- [94:27]
A
Are y' all seeing most teams? This. This will be me and Matt always talking about this. Are y' all seeing most teams? Like, we don't want to go in because they won't let us go in and all that kind of stuff. And you're. When you're having to make them do cqb, you. Like you said, we're doing HR type of cqb. Because if you say anything else, a lot of things are like, oh, we're gonna do all this other fancy stuff. Have y' all encountered that yet?
- [94:49]
D
The one thing I've encountered is I had to learn. Learn why we are going in when maybe we don't need to, but. And it's normal, like, you know, a narcotic sit.
- [95:00]
A
So.
- [95:01]
D
So we have an urgency on. We have to get there before, you know. So that was. I'm like, all right, so I guess that is. That's what you're there for. So. Yeah, I guess we got to do what we got to do.
- [95:11]
A
Yeah.
- [95:11]
D
But I had to accept that because, I mean, we went through a full circle as well. Like. Yeah, love. I think, as a whole, in general, the guys, like, hitting it. Hitting stuff hard.
- [95:22]
C
Yeah.
- [95:23]
D
And we did back in the past, too, but we could only do that for so long before we realized that maybe, you know, we're running out of dogs. We're running out of guys getting injured or. Or shot. We can't. We can't keep. We can't sustain this.
- [95:36]
B
Well, I think it's just trying to understand that, like, you know, the mission drives the method. You know, you can't paint everything with one broad brush. So just finding where that. That threshold is. Right. Like, yeah, man, we're dealing with an active shooter, man. There is no. Like, I'm waiting for confirmation or, you know, like, hey, we're. We're gonna try to wait for everybody. Like, no, man. Like, this is. This is the dichotomy of what we're in the business of doing, right?
- [96:03]
C
Yeah.
- [96:03]
B
There's the. The wrong thing to do. There's what society tells you, like, you think you should do and you know what's right.
- [96:10]
A
Yeah.
- [96:10]
B
And you're like. And we go back to those shots. Like, I'm gonna fucking own him, man. I'm going to own it at the end of the day, because I know that this is what I should be doing.
- [96:16]
A
Yeah.
- [96:17]
B
But I'm not saying by any means for guys to, like, hey, like, it's a discussion to have, like, even pre. You know, pre everything. Right. Because you want to create SOPs and, and you know, for, for the departments. But yeah, man, I think for me what I've noticed with a lot is confidence, man. There's a lot of confidence that guys deal with. It's like, you know, it, there's, there's a difference between like team communication and like team confirmation. It's like no, you go. No, I go, you go. Especially like if we get to like hallways, man. Dude always it starts eating everybody up, man.
- [96:48]
A
Stop talking and just do something.
- [96:50]
B
Yeah, and that's where it's like hey man, it goes to the like all to that stuff. Like you know, I talk about the dance, man. It's like, dude, like it's, it's an art form, man. Like the moment like Rick does this or you know, Chris does this, it's like I, I know, I know I fall in.
- [97:04]
C
Right.
- [97:04]
B
But everybody's. If you're always trying to be like I'm going to, to just want you to go back to saying like if the guys want to be at the back, like I don't want to do anything. So you're always like herky jerky all the time.
- [97:13]
A
Yeah.
- [97:14]
B
And now you're just putting everybody else at jeopardy because now there's only really one dude who's fucking doing the whole thing or maybe two.
- [97:19]
C
You know, expand upon that. So one of the big challenges I guess going on with you know, SWAT teams and modern day policing is warrant service, you know and like whether you could do it dynamic or having to do like a surrounding call out and unfortunate in doubt. Dallas we run still a lot of warrants a year and majority of them are still dynamic, you know, on the move, you know, breaching and going and no knock warrants time and what we see with a lot of agencies like guys want to do that but because of policy or whatever, they won't let me because the current, you know, climate administration won't let them do it. And so now they're now three, four years removed from doing anything dynamic. Well okay, so the problem is, is that when a hostage rescue does come or like to enact shooter, you're at the mercy of the winds when they come up. Like they're not pre planned obviously when they happen now they haven't done anything on the move for so long. And I understand you can train, you know, but you can only do so much in training. Right. And, and unfortunately like for us in Dallas, we're a full time team that get to do training and get to prevent a lot of live ops, majority of teams in the country are not full time that get to do that. So it's an ancillary role to the them, the swat, their detectives or patrol. They're like branding. They're, you know, they're auto. Whatever, whatever they do. And so they don't get to, to devote the time to it that some military units or full time SWAT teams get to do. But yet where they work, they're the answer. They're SWAT and so they're expected to be able to perform that task as, as anybody should be able to do. And that's not the reality. So we see a lot of those guys coming in. This is what Brandon and I went down this path years ago is that you're seeing the erosion of a skill set of being able to clear space on the move and in hallways really where it breaks down. But like they cannot come in and process rooms and clear and keep moving at it. You know, I tell guys, we're not moving faster than y'. All. We're just not wasting any time. Like we are efficient in our movements.
- [99:18]
B
Exactly.
- [99:19]
C
You know, and I'm sure y' all can understand that. And when I was like, I don't need four guys to go with me to clear this room. Like I need you to go with me and you two go do that and bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And that's how, that's how we do it. And not to say that we're per now, but the point to that is, is that there's an erosion of skill sets. And what's happening now is, is that the guys that were doing it, they're like, Brandon's my, my age are now leaving the teams and the guys that are there now, the four or five year guys have never done it.
- [99:47]
B
Yeah.
- [99:47]
C
And so they're like, oh, I've done hostage Ricky training. Like. Well, you've never performed live. Live ops, running at speed.
- [99:53]
A
Yeah.
- [99:53]
C
Clearing and assessing people. Does that make sense?
- [99:55]
D
Yeah.
- [99:55]
C
And so it's going to be a challenge for you because there's very few teams that have any real hard, skilled reps live to doing that. And so that's going to be a challenge.
- [100:06]
B
No, no. And I think that's one thing that I like, you know, being down in, in Houston, just hearing a lot of like, just the additional tasks that you guys have to do, man. It's like on top of being like, you know, at the, at that level. Right. And then, I mean the, the, the cities demand so much of you in another facet. Right. That like.
- [100:25]
D
Yeah.
- [100:25]
B
Outside and that was like, that, that was ignorance on my end. I thought like, that was. That was it, man.
- [100:29]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you, you come from a community as. Okay, I'm with this particular section of the army and this person is with this particular section of the army and what they say over here, this is what goes here. This is what goes here. This is totally different. Different. Matt works for this department, I work for this department. This guy works for this. This guy works for another state that has different laws, that has different thought processes. But what's crazy is that we all working on the Constitution, it's all the same, but yet leadership that up, politicians that up. So there's a lot of like, I mean, you go to some states and, and we teach what we teach and they're like, oh man, man, that works for y'.
- [101:13]
D
All.
- [101:13]
A
But man, there's no way we could get away with even doing this. I'm like, what? Like, I mean, there's some departments that can't even use a diversion device.
- [101:21]
B
Yeah.
- [101:22]
A
Because they have to have. From like the assistant. I'm like, are you kidding me? Like, those are a no brainer. So there's, there's so many aspects and you'll start learning like, whoa, what the hell?
- [101:32]
B
Yeah, I saw some of that to where it's like, no, I couldn't use a diversion device because I have to like, I have to lay it down. And I, I'm like, really? Like, I mean, I say lay it down, but it's like I have to just where I can see it and it has to touch, you know, and I can't see it go anywhere else. I'm like, wow, you know.
- [101:47]
C
Yeah.
- [101:47]
B
And there's I. And that's where I think, like, you know, there's certain processes because that are happening, right. That are creating a whole kind of like stunned, you know, don't talk about decision making. Those are stunning, those processes.
- [101:59]
D
Right.
- [102:00]
B
Like, because now I have to think about this and now it's, it's like, well, what's the real benefit of what I'm really getting here? And going back to what you're saying is like, you know, running at speed where, you know, when we, you know, we're addressing it at that level, it's like now that, that, that tactic which was proven really well. Right. Is. Is becoming very antiquated. It's not an only thing. And then now, like you said, the guys, the guys who are doing it now getting pushed out, so there's no longer an advocacy for that, that, that, that kind of that method. And that's where it's. It becomes very dangerous because as you start moving, moving forward, like generations ahead. Right. Like, yeah. Now the stigmatization or being the stigma for it is, is that's just the way we always done it. Like, no, it hasn't always been that way. If you didn't know any better, this is how it was done.
- [102:44]
A
I think history is huge to be a history person and knowing how things got to where they are and why they are and. Yeah, knowing. Yeah, history does repeat itself. A lot of times there's been things like, oh, we're back to doing this now.
- [102:54]
B
Like, okay, well, you know, I mean, here's the thing though, is like, to the, you know, your adversary and your perpetrators, man, if I, like, know that you've never gone fast.
- [103:05]
A
Yeah.
- [103:06]
B
What am I going to do? I'm going to go fast.
- [103:08]
A
Yeah.
- [103:08]
B
I'm going to throw something in there. If I know you've never fought in, in this environment.
- [103:12]
C
Yep.
- [103:13]
B
Where do you think?
- [103:14]
C
Well, they're not restrained or governed by any rules.
- [103:16]
B
Yeah.
- [103:16]
C
Right. They're, you know, they're free form whatever they want to do. And when you are handicapped, you know, by policy, administrations, or just your inability to be able to do and having confidence, y' all know this. Having confidence because you've been there, you've done that live reps training. So when it comes time to go do that, you just take that file out, you know exactly what to play, you know how to handle this. And to your point earlier, you're all your team knows. Like, oh, I see what's happening in front of me. Everybody understands, okay, this is the play. This is how you solve this problem. And everybody does it with very little to no talking. And you go in there, solve that problem, and then you, you look around and you move on. Whereas they don't. It's not their fault. They don't have that experience. They don't have those reps yet where they are. They're expected to be able perform that. That's a problem.
- [104:02]
B
It's a big.
- [104:02]
C
It's an issue. This is. We've discussed it. I don't, I don't know what the answer is. We're fighting it. We've been trying to do.
- [104:07]
B
But yeah, you know, and, yeah, I know. I, I think, you know, the advocacy of what you guys are doing and, you know, providing the platform or people like we're obviously discussing it is important.
- [104:16]
C
Right.
- [104:16]
B
You know, but just a realization that, like, you know, our, our sphere of, like, influence only spans so Far right. That where you' like, the people who kind of like, who, who hear the message and become, you know, either part of like, you know, political leaders. Like, hey, man, this is, we need to make a change here, which is important because, yeah, like, you know, we need to be able to. We have the people and we have the talent of the individuals who want to do it. We just need to give them the means. We need to allow them, we need to empower them to do that, you know, so extremely important, man. But I, I do think, yeah, man, like having the ability to have multiple tools and still, hey, like, I, maybe I may not always use this all the time because certain restrictions are there, but I've done it.
- [104:57]
A
Yeah.
- [104:58]
B
And I, I, I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna, you know, I'm not always going to use this blade all the time, but every so often, like amongst my team, I'm going to shape it.
- [105:05]
A
Yeah.
- [105:05]
B
And I'll keep it sheathed. But the moment that I freaking have to go ahead and address something, I come out, man. I cut hard, I cut fast, I cut deep.
- [105:12]
A
Yeah.
- [105:13]
B
And that's the way that people should view that. Like, don't, don't let that thing freaking sit in a freaking, in a drawer. Never tended to, man. Because when you need it, dude, it's not going to, it's absolutely.
- [105:22]
A
No for sure, for sure. Well, gentlemen, we've taken almost two hours of your time up. It's been, it's been a pleasure. Is there anything else that y' all needed to get out to, to promote something or anything like that or thank.
- [105:34]
D
You for your time.
- [105:35]
A
Oh, man, absolutely. It's good. Yeah. I appreciate you wore some square toe boots, man. I love that you said, I was like, hell yeah, man. Where's Boots?
- [105:44]
C
Thank you for your service and everything you did previously and what you're doing going forward because, you know, you know, paying it forward, giving it back because, you know, we have a volunteer police force, we have a volunteer military, you know, and if people don't have the passion and the desire to give, we will lose that. We wouldn't have a country. So thank you for that. I appreciate that.
- [106:03]
B
Thank you, man. Yeah, same goes back out to all you guys, man. Like rising tides, man. You know, like I said, brother's police officer here and if, and if he wasn't, man, we all are all like cut from the same cloth.
- [106:14]
C
Yeah.
- [106:14]
B
You're just in a different place. Whatever it can do to give back to you guys, you know, and for the community out there all throughout ttpoa. Hey, thank you guys very much for just having us here for, like, welcomed us, like, in true Texas fashion, man. It's been nothing but great.
- [106:28]
C
Yeah.
- [106:29]
B
But, yeah, man, if anybody wants to continue to reach out of where we.
- [106:32]
A
You know, how we get a hold of you.
- [106:33]
B
Yeah. Oh, yeah. So you could just reach us out through either Eduardo at obsidian spirit group.com or marketing@obsidian spirit group.com and then also utilizing the TTPOA, like, pastors.
- [106:45]
C
You're on the gram, too, right?
- [106:46]
B
We are on the ground. Yeah. So, yeah. Obsidian Spear Group on Instagram.
- [106:49]
C
I'm following you.
- [106:50]
B
Oh, heck yeah.
- [106:50]
A
Is it you running that one? Are you the.
- [106:52]
B
It's a collective.
- [106:53]
C
Okay.
- [106:53]
A
Because we've had a few messages back and forth. I'm like, I don't know who. Who's running that.
- [106:56]
B
Yeah, yeah, collective. You know, majority of time, I'll be kind of on it, but some of the other guys, in case, like, I get a little busy, they'll kind of, you know, do some stuff.
- [107:03]
A
We'll tag you and then Born Primitive, y' all partner with them or something.
- [107:07]
B
Yeah, yeah, no, it's been, yeah, it's been great, man. Man. Born Primitive. We've had a few sponsors, man. Wiley X, Born Primitive eotech, you know, some really great, you know, vendors out there that are doing things for the community. Saw a lot of potential in us and, you know, thank you to, like, Bruno Fallon, man. Like, I mean, great individual, man, you know, so awesome to see here. See him here, you know, and, yeah, it's been fortunate, man, for us to be able to, like, collaborate moving forward.
- [107:31]
A
Yeah, he brought a bunch of fit people here to model his closing. I know, man.
- [107:36]
B
I feel like I got to up my game.
- [107:39]
D
Yeah.
- [107:40]
A
Like, good grief, man.
- [107:41]
D
I'd like to end one more thing from our side. That first guy that you mentioned that asked you about the, that topic that he asked, how do you do what you do? Basically, yeah.
- [107:51]
C
Yeah.
- [107:52]
D
That is a common theme. It's not just from him. There's many times where we've went and we told each other we could not do what you guys do.
- [108:00]
A
Well, it's so fascinating to me.
- [108:01]
D
Like, he's not the only one that.
- [108:03]
B
Yeah.
- [108:03]
D
That has that opinion. It's a common opinion. Opinion, and we truly said many times. And it's. Yeah, we'd love to be able to help you. I mean, it's.
- [108:10]
A
Well, we, we appreciate that. Like I said, I, I, you know, I'm humbled to hear that because I would just never thought that. Just never ever thought that.
- [108:19]
D
It's a very common thought. Yeah.
- [108:20]
C
Yeah.
- [108:20]
A
Well, cool.
- [108:21]
B
Yeah.
- [108:21]
C
I appreciate that. Thank you.
- [108:22]
A
Well, fellas, we look forward to getting to know y' all even better throughout the years and be a partner with ttpoa. So we appreciate it, guys.
- [108:29]
B
Yeah. Thank you.
- [108:29]
A
All right. Y' all train hard.
- [108:30]
D
Yeah.
- [108:30]
B
Appreciate it.
- [108:31]
A
Thank you.