Reticence Group " If you want them to be wow shooters, you better be able to pull some wow sh*t out of your a$$

Summary

The TTPOA Podcast: Episode Summary

Title: Reticence Group "If You Want Them to Be Wow Shooters, You Better Be Able to Pull Some Wow Sh*t Out of Your A$$"

Release Date: November 3, 2024

Hosts: TTPOA Host (Graham and Brandon)

Guests: Chansey and Brian from Reticence Group

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1. Introduction to Reticence Group

In this episode of The TTPOA Podcast, hosts Graham and Brandon welcome their special guests, Chansey and Brian, founders of Reticence Group—a training company dedicated to enhancing the skills of SWAT officers, military personnel, and first responders. The conversation kicks off with light-hearted banter about TTPOA’s 40th anniversary and the origins of their group, setting a collegial tone for the episode.

Notable Quote:

• Brandon [01:27]: “We're teaching like that and live like that. And so that's a testament to who y'all are.”

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2. Backgrounds of Chansey and Brian

Brandon invites Brian to share his background, revealing his extensive experience as an officer in the Dallas Metroplex, SWAT member, and firearms instructor with over seven years at the range. He highlights collaborations with Graham spanning two decades.

Chansey provides a comprehensive overview of his career, detailing his roles within the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, patrol duties, zero tolerance teams, SWAT operations, use-of-force coordination, and current position as a sergeant over the air support unit. His dedication to training and mentorship is evident as he emphasizes the support from his superiors in raising the next generation of law enforcement officers.

Notable Quotes:

• Brian [04:56]: “I've been doing training for a long time… We can't just talk about it.”
• Chansey [06:00]: “I've been doing that since 06/05/06 time frame… I'm a blessed guy.”

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3. Philosophy and Mission of Reticence Group

Chansey and Brian articulate the foundational philosophy of Reticence Group, emphasizing "reticence"—the principle of sticking to one’s beliefs, maintaining discretion, and letting actions speak louder than words. They discuss the challenges of marketing their training in the age of social media, acknowledging the importance of word-of-mouth and adapting to younger generations' communication styles.

Notable Quotes:

• Chansey [01:45]: “Being a reticence person… doing what's right.”
• Brandon [03:10]: “People can sniff those out… it's important to have.”

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4. Critique of Traditional Law Enforcement Training

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the shortcomings of traditional law enforcement training. Chansey and Brian criticize static, script-based drills that focus excessively on accuracy without considering the dynamic nature of real-world engagements. They argue that such training fails to prepare officers for the unpredictability and speed of actual confrontations.

Notable Quotes:

• Brian [14:36]: “We're teaching to reality… It was two totally different sides of the spectrum.”
• Chansey [19:07]: “The whole training sets them up for failure.”

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5. Emphasis on Grip and Fundamental Skills

Chansey and Brian place paramount importance on the fundamental skill of grip control. They assert that a proper grip is the cornerstone of effective shooting, influencing both accuracy and speed. They challenge outdated grip techniques, such as the "60-40" or "70-30" grip ratios, advocating instead for a balanced, natural hold that suits each individual shooter’s physiology.

Notable Quotes:

• Brian [60:33]: “Grip.”
• Chansey [60:34]: “It's 100%. The grip. They feel like they have to stage a trigger…"

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6. Realistic, Movement-Based Drills

Moving beyond static drills, Reticence Group incorporates movement into their training from day two onward. They emphasize shooting while on the move, mirroring real-life scenarios where officers must engage targets while navigating dynamic environments. This approach helps officers build muscle memory and adaptability, crucial for effective performance under pressure.

Notable Quotes:

• Brian [25:07]: “We train zero to the qual. Nothing has to do with the qual.”
• Brandon [32:24]: “CQB is not stand on the line shooting.”

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7. Innovative Teaching Techniques and Demonstrations

Chansey and Brian discuss their hands-on, adaptive teaching methods. They prioritize demonstrating drills in varied positions and encouraging officers to understand the "why" behind each movement. This methodology fosters deeper comprehension and retention, enabling officers to apply skills intuitively in high-stress situations.

Notable Quotes:

• Brian [58:00]: “We tell our students, move natural.”
• Chansey [30:37]: “We want them to be wow shooters… pull some wow sh*t out of your a$$.”

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8. Overcoming Egos and Fostering Continuous Improvement

The conversation delves into the importance of setting aside personal egos to embrace continuous improvement. Chansey and Brian advocate for a humble, self-critical approach where instructors lead by example, aiming to be the weakest shooters on the range to encourage learners to excel.

Notable Quotes:

• Brian [50:18]: “I want to be the worst dude on the range.”
• Chansey [48:28]: “Put that damn ego aside… learn from them.”

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9. Practical Application and Real-World Relevance

The guests highlight the need for training that mirrors real-world law enforcement challenges. They reference scenarios such as traffic stops and active pursuits, stressing that officers must be prepared to react swiftly and accurately without relying on outdated drill protocols. Their training equips officers to handle unpredictable engagements effectively.

Notable Quotes:

• Brandon [55:39]: “Imagine getting called to Walmart and chasing a shooter in the parking lot.”
• Brian [62:00]: “How do you run around the world if you're not pointing your gun at somebody?”

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10. Commitment to Excellence and Future Endeavors

Wrapping up the episode, Chansey and Brian emphasize their commitment to advancing law enforcement training. They discuss ongoing collaborations, such as their participation in conferences and instructor schools, aimed at disseminating their progressive training philosophies nationwide. Their dedication to pushing the boundaries of traditional training underscores their mission to elevate the capabilities of first responders.

Notable Quotes:

• Chansey [82:23]: “We're attacking the administration side… make cops better.”
• Brian [80:41]: “Encouraging progression and movement… push the envelope.”

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Conclusion

This episode of The TTPOA Podcast offers a deep dive into innovative law enforcement training methodologies championed by Reticence Group. Chansey and Brian's insights challenge conventional practices, advocating for realistic, movement-based drills and foundational skills like grip control. Their emphasis on continuous improvement, humility, and real-world applicability provides valuable lessons for first responders seeking to enhance their tactical proficiency and leadership capabilities. As they conclude, the guests reinforce their dedication to "Train Hard" and leaving their teams better equipped for the challenges ahead.

Final Quote:

• Chansey [83:52]: “So you guys keep training hard and stay safe.”

Transcript

[Chansey]

Foreign.

[Graham]

To the TTPOA podcast, a podcast.

[Brandon]

For SWAT officers, military, and all first responders. We'll be talking training, tactics and leadership with the best subject matter experts around.

[Graham]

Here are your hosts, Graham and Brandon.

[Brandon]

What's up, folks? How are y'all doing? It's been a long time since we talked with you. No, actually, it's just. Just been 2 hours ago since we did our last podcast. Since we're here at the Kalahari resort for the 40th anniversary of TTPOA's existence. It came out of, I don't know, Texas vagina. I don't know how that worked. I don't know where we were born, how that happened, but somehow it happened.

[Brian]

So I like that description.

[Brandon]

You like that?

[Chansey]

The 1984 model?

[Brandon]

Yeah, yeah. Graham looked at me like, what did you say? I thought you're supposed to control me, man.

[Graham]

Oh, try not to mention shaking babies, and I think we'll be okay. That one was okay.

[Brandon]

Shaking baby.

[Graham]

At least you use the term.

[Chansey]

The.

[Graham]

The medical term and not another.

[Brandon]

Yeah, right.

[Graham]

So I'll give you that one.

[Brandon]

I mean that I am a proper. I'm almost like a doctor. This is season four, Episode four, and we have our special guest today, Chansey and Brian. They are friends of ours for a while now. Y'all have y'all's training company. What Y'all's training company called Reticence Group. Reticence Group. What's the name? What did that come from? What did it do? I don't know. Yeah, Where'd it come from?

[Brian]

Yeah, Chansey, where did it come from?

[Chansey]

Here we go. Now, the basis of it is just comes down to being more of a reticence person, sticking to basically your beliefs of all things, keeping. Keeping things close to the heart, close to the vest, and doing what's right.

[Brandon]

I like that.

[Chansey]

In the face of all the things that are out there in the world that seem to be, you know, it's.

[Brian]

Not having to talk about yourself, doing things all the time. You know, just putting your nose to the grindstone and working and not having to feel like you have to constantly be talking about certain things and. And explaining or justifying or trying to, you know, convince people of who you are and just let our work speak for itself kind of thing.

[Chansey]

There you go.

[Brandon]

I like that. I think anybody who. Who knows y'all. Y'all. Y'all definitely teach like that and live like that. And so that's a testament to kind of who y'all are. I think we. I think the. The guests that we have on here are all kind of cut from the same mold when it comes to, man, just this is, this is who I am. This is what I'm about. I'm passionate, have conviction. I think that's, that, that's what makes people successful in the, in the, in the end of the day. The other stuff while you're successful is just great marketing. And, and at the end of the day, people can sniff those out. So I think that's, you know, important to have.

[Chansey]

So I think we fail miserably at the marketing part of it because we don't have much Instagram.

[Brian]

Yeah, we, social media, we are horrible at it.

[Graham]

Well, you like us for the ttpo. What we recognize that, you know, there's a group of our colleagues across the country that that's, you know, they're into that stuff. So we can do a good job of marketing that and it's not saying anything different about what we are, but it's just basically getting that word out and like, hey, come on into our training. We're not going to change our training.

[Chansey]

Right?

[Graham]

But here it's just a marketing tool.

[Brian]

We see, we, I mean, we definitely see the need for it, you know, and that's just the way that it's, it's progressing. You know, I mean, word of mouth is still king, I think. But on the flip side of that, you have these younger generation officer guys, and we've all been doing this for 20 years, probably if not longer, you know, and the new generation guys, that's what they know and what they do and what they love. And I mean, we got to, we have to learn how to kind of adapt to that.

[Brandon]

And, and there's, and there's, there's good things on there and there's a lot of, there's a lot of dumb shit, but there's a lot of good things that people get. Like that. You see a guy's post, you're like, oh, let me try that. I've never seen, man, that dude just smoked. What I could do with that. Now I'm challenged by this or I want to try this. So I think there's, there's parts of it that are, that are really good. I know when the hell most time I post shit, I'm like, oh, fuck, I misspelled that one word. Misspelled that word.

[Brian]

Yeah, right. There's like 14 edits to a post.

[Chansey]

Yeah, yeah, dodge the grammar police and stuff.

[Brandon]

So, man, tell us a little bit about yourself. Kind of a little background. Guys that don't Know you, Brian, if you want to start, go ahead, man. Yeah.

[Brian]

So I'm an officer at a large department in the Dallas Metroplex area. I work full time as a firearms instructor.

[Chansey]

All right.

[Brian]

Been doing training for a long time. Been at the range for seven and a half years now.

[Brandon]

Okay.

[Brian]

Yeah. Did a little bit of SWAT stuff back with Graham back in the day. Did some undercover work back in the day, too. Did three and a half years of undercover work.

[Brandon]

That's fun stuff.

[Brian]

Yeah, a lot of fun. Graham and I go back 20 years. Graham.

[Graham]

Yes, sir.

[Brian]

Yeah. So, yeah, man, just. That's kind of still quick. Quick, down and dirty. Me in a nutshell. You know, Chancey and I got into the training side about a year and a half, two years ago, and continue to try to push that and really change the way law enforcement training is conducted and looked at. And the only way to effectively change things is push the envelope and be a part of the change. You can't just talk about it, you know?

[Brandon]

No, you can't. What about you, Chansey?

[Chansey]

I had started with Texas Department of Criminal justice back in tdc. Yeah. Did that for four years and went. Went to work for a big agency in North Texas. Started out, did patrol, couple of stints through our. To the ZT teams, zero tolerance teams, training down at the range, teaching taser stuff, ctdt, all of that. Went to SWAT for several years as an officer. Left out of there, did the use of force coordinator thing that was interesting, to say the least. Testifying, grand jury, and back and forth, all of that. Did some. Stood up and helped help get a unit going, criminal tracking unit. Okay. Doing fugitive work, stuff like that. And then went back to squad as a supervisor for a couple of years, and now I'm a sergeant over the air support unit. All right. With the city, so. And I've got a bird nest on the ground.

[Brandon]

All right. You got a good gig?

[Chansey]

I do, yeah. I. I spend a lot of time down at the range teaching because I've, you know, I've been doing that since 06.0506 time frame. And again, have a lot of support. My, my, you know, people that I work for are all about it out there, trying to raise the next generation of cop to be better. I like the steel kind of deal. And I'm fortunate, man. I'm a blessed guy.

[Brandon]

No, you are, man. I can't remember. I don't know how long we. I've known both of y'all. It's been a while. I just. I can't remember.

[Brian]

I Remember the first time I met you? It was the very first basic SWAT school that you guys put on after it left.

[Brandon]

Okay.

[Brian]

And I went through that one.

[Brandon]

Oh, did joke.

[Brian]

Yeah. I remember carrying a bowling ball on a rope and.

[Brandon]

Yeah, that was our school.

[Brian]

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that's. I remember that was the first time I met you. And my brother in law actually was out there and it was pouring down rain.

[Brandon]

I love your brother in law, man.

[Brian]

Yeah, it was pouring down rain and you crawled up underneath his car and you put zip ties on and he drove off and it was like, stopped and like, that's the first time I met. That was. Man, that was back in what, 2009.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Brian]

10, 11, something like that.

[Brandon]

Somewhere around there.

[Brian]

Yeah. So that's the first time I met.

[Brandon]

I was paying him back because the year before that at the conference, he took all the raffle tickets and put them in my bed, put them in my boots, put them in my luggage.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And. Yeah, I had to sleep with 14,000 raffle tickets. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

So I didn't win anything.

[Brandon]

No, no, didn't. Didn't win a damn thing and stuff. So. Yeah, that was a little payback for him.

[Brian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chansey]

Talking about basic SWAT schools and went through Rick Cutler was the TL and the one I went then. I think it was late. Oh, five. Early 06.

[Graham]

That's when I met you.

[Chansey]

Yeah, that's when I think you were out there too. I think you were helping. Helping ringlead that deal. My, how time flies. That's what I know. Make you feel old.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Look in the mirror and see all the gray whiskers and you're like, yeah.

[Brandon]

Well, he's retired now and, you know, started a new career and, you know, and then I got 26 years coming this summer. It goes by fast. Yeah. You still feel like you're young, but you're like, I'm not young. Like, yeah.

[Brian]

You see these young Thundercats running around and you're like, man, hey, I'm not as young as I think I am.

[Graham]

Right. You know, I would love to be. My knee tells me that I'm not.

[Brian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chansey]

It's so joints.

[Brandon]

Yes. Yeah. The morning time, you're like, dad gum it and stuff.

[Graham]

So what I'll say about both of y'all real quick because it kind of goes into what you were when you were explaining the name of your company there, the redneck group, is that, you know, you're kind of a quiet, reserved dudes, but you walk the walk. But you can Talk, talk.

[Brian]

Right, right.

[Graham]

Type stuff. Right, so. Or talk, talk, walk the walk, however it goes, whatever.

[Brandon]

Or maybe.

[Graham]

Yeah, something like that. Right, yeah. But so, you know, in the Metroplex, you guys, from the work that you've done on the streets and then on the range, you've gotten. Built this reputation. So I'm glad that you guys are, you know, doing a really good job. And now you're teaching around the country, so. Says a lot of good things about you because again, a lot of it's word of mouth.

[Brian]

Right, right.

[Graham]

People call you or they see you on TTP website or whatever, and they're like, oh, man, hey, I want to take this class. That stuff looks great. Or if I get a call, I'm like, yes, go to their class.

[Brian]

Right, right.

[Graham]

So tell how that's been, how you've got. Basically gone from kind of local and now we're teaching courses. What, Orlando?

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Graham]

Around. Around the country.

[Brian]

All over the country, man. We've been very blessed to do that. Been out to Vegas, Florida. I mean, it's.

[Graham]

It's.

[Brian]

Yeah, I mean, we. We go all over. We try to stay in Texas, you know, but sometimes, you know, like when. When people call and want classes, obviously the answer is yes, you know, and we'll. We'll facilitate that. But it's all word of mouth, really, because, like, we just talked about. Our social media presence isn't really strong, but knowing people who. Know people who are looking for a certain thing or get, you know, told about us by other friends or whatever. And so, yeah, that's definitely growing. And we're really enjoying being able to go out and do that and teach guys and talk to guys from around the country and try to, you know, try to instill what we. What we bring to the table and make them better.

[Brandon]

And what classes are y'all teaching?

[Chansey]

It's predominantly. It's mostly red dot pistol stuff. I mean, that's obviously the craze now. You know, that's. That's the. Probably the staple. Good. That's what everybody wants. A bunch of stuff is closed courses. We've got folks that are hitting us up saying, hey, we've got a group. We want to do this, do that, you know, just. Just for our bunch and which we're all about, you know, I mean, it's pretty rare that we do open enrollment on the civilian side of the house just because, you know, there's a lot of people that want to kick the tires. And then, yeah, thank goodness we got folks around and things are catching on and people Are wanting to get in the training bug, you know?

[Brian]

Yeah, yeah, we've done, like, LPVO schools. We do a lot of instructor schools. You know, we're looking forward to the one that we're doing for TTP away in June. That's going to be a really fun school. Yeah, we're really looking forward to that. Just because of the work that the students are going to have to put in. It makes us happy to see the progression of the student and how we structure the class to really. We really try to teach them how to teach, not just show up and get a cert. That's not the class that we run. So it's rewarding for them, and it's really rewarding for us to see the progression of students, you know, throughout the week.

[Brandon]

So. So what do y'all have? I know the old school red shirt rage guy is, you know, a hot topic, you know.

[Brian]

Right.

[Chansey]

We're.

[Brandon]

We're in a large.

[Brian]

Yeah, here we go.

[Brandon]

That a lot of. A lot of cops around the nation that Matt Pranket put together and put all us cops together is like, hey, man, y'all start this culture. You know what the. The big deal was? Hey, man, you can't. You can't change. You got to basically recruit people, you know, type deals.

[Chansey]

So tell you a huge thing with that, with me is the environment. Because, I mean, there's what. There's over 100 years of law enforcement experience sitting there at this table talking right now. And that doesn't mean we know it all, but we've seen it for the past, you know, 24, 25 years each collectively. And the environment that we all walked into whenever we were taught how to shoot a handgun, you know, rifle, whatever case, maybe it was predominantly handgun. Obviously, whenever we all started was you walked into an absolute system of judgment where people look down on you if you couldn't do anything. And I would argue that they weren't worth the teaching you how to do. And I'm sorry, whistle pig here in the glass. You got to call the spade the spade.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

And whenever people are on, whenever they don't have the ability to teach you.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Because they can't explain it in a way that you can comprehend it. And I don't mean just me.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

I mean, Brandon, Graham, Brian, any of us, you know, or anybody else for that matter that's out there walking the floor right now is. You've got to put it in terms where people can understand it, and it's a matter of cause and effect.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

That's what it equates to.

[Brian]

And yeah, I mean, we're trying really hard to get away from the old mentality of the PPC style training and, you know, toes on the line, shoot small little groups and take the I love me selfies and look how badass I am with a gun. You know, I mean, we, you guys know, you talk to people that have been to our classes. Like, I will flat out, and Chanty will too, tell people, I want you to fail. Like, I want you to fail every day. I don't want you to fail the class on a hole, but I want you to push yourself to failure and beyond on every single drill that we do, because that's where learning takes place.

[Chansey]

Absolutely.

[Brian]

It's not, you know, we can go to the three yard line and shoot 10 rounds in one minute. And like, what do you, what do you learn from that? Yeah, like, you learn nothing. And, and we, we really pride ourselves on pushing people to the point of failure and beyond to expose the things that are causing the bad shots to happen or, you know, the negative. The negative time hacks that people are failing to meet or whatever the case may be. And the only way to do that is, is to push people. And that's so contrary to what was taught in the before time. You know, um, anytime you would have a bad shot, you would be berated by the instructor and they would say ignorant things, you know, or just throw out these cookie cutter terms like, you know, stop jerking the trigger, stop slapping the trigger. And you know, just, just stuff that. I mean, it. It. If you don't know, you don't know.

[Brandon]

Right?

[Chansey]

Right.

[Brian]

But that's, that's not the case. Like, I want, I want you to push yourself to the point to where the wheels fall completely off so we can dissect it, fix it, put the wheels on and hit the skinny pedal on the right. Let's go.

[Brandon]

That's good. So when did that change for y'all? Because obviously you came through same time all of us did. And so obviously you were taught the old style way. When did it change for y'all to go, you know what, I've been.

[Chansey]

I'm up, I can on my end. And it's a matter of. It's kind of funny how it came together with, with me and Brian is to go out there, to go to classes, you know, take lots of classes, go out there, enjoy the shooting, you know, go out there training, doing that stuff, and then to realize that there's more, there's another level of doing this, you know, there's the. I can, I can feel good about what I'm doing walking around. And a lot of guys will peacock.

[Unknown]

Yep.

[Chansey]

They'll wear all the gear and they have all the nice trinkets and everything else, but at the end of the day, they can't find their ass with both hands in a flashlight.

[Brian]

I love chances and the chansey isms, man.

[Chansey]

I love them.

[Brian]

I've been traveling the country with Chancing. If I would have been writing these down, I would have a best seller right there.

[Brandon]

I love when he texts me. I'm like, dude, I didn't even know that's how you type that. Yeah, okay.

[Graham]

Yeah, I'm sure when you know those guys, when you're going around the country, they're like looking at, that's, that's, that's those guys from Texas.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Well, there's guys that look at me like, what did he just say? I'm like, do this and I got it.

[Brandon]

I will translate for him.

[Chansey]

Not north and south. Yeah, it's a, it's an absolute right, man, with all of that.

[Brian]

But I think it's the, you know, really and truly everybody in this room has been involved in something in their career that, you know, it was practical, real life shit. You know, like something went down and you know, you had to make a split second decision and perform on demand. And all of us obviously did. And if not, we wouldn't be sitting here right now and looking at the practical, realistic side of law enforcement engagements shooting and then comparing it to what we're teaching our people. It was two totally different sides of the spectrum, man. Like we're teaching them to stand there and slow fire and shoot tiny little groups when in reality that is the furthest thing from the truth that what happens in the real world. So let's teach them how as best as we can in a training environment. The practical, the reality based side of law enforcement engagements, which is very, very fast. You got to be accurate enough. Like I don't need to put five rounds in the same hole. If I can put five rounds on a target in a hand sized group in half the time it takes you to shoot five rounds in a quarter size group. I'm winning gunfights.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

You know, and that's, that's the biggest thing I think.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

No, it is so true for that.

[Chansey]

The reality of it being is, you know, everybody, everybody screams that speed is the, is what causes people to screw it up. And I'd argue that that's the furthest from the truth. The Reality of it is, is if Brandon, if you pulled your pistol out right now and put a shot right center of your target in 1.1 seconds and another guy does it in 3.1 seconds, puts it in the same hole, the speed from which that hole arrived on that target ain't got nothing to do with how fast it got there.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

And that's what people have a hard time to get past, you know. You know, initially I mentioned the environment and the whole judgment. You know, whenever you're taught everybody's judged and everybody stands around like they're on, on some sort of a pedestal whenever they're teaching people that in our style.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

You know, are we judging what happens on the target and the timeframe which it happens. Absolutely. Be lying if I said we didn't. But at the end of the day, it's showing you a pathway to get there.

[Brandon]

Yes.

[Chansey]

So that you can better yourself. Because this is a selfish ass endeavor, guys. Yeah, I think we could all agree to that.

[Graham]

Well, I like what you mentioned what Brian brought up. And then that's what Chuck Pressburg was talking about, like going back and watching these body cameras and seeing these split times, you know, in real life, like how fast I got put five rounds down range. Because when I went through the base academy, we were basically being taught to qualify.

[Chansey]

Yes.

[Graham]

We were teaching a quality. There was no reality based training on the live fire range. You know, there was no discretionary targets. It was our qual target and our job was to basically qualify so they could get to the next group.

[Brandon]

Shoot the quality five times. Not knowing you shot the qual.

[Brian]

Yes, right, right.

[Graham]

And, and you know, that's, you know, not, not knocking, you know, the state agency or anything like that, but the same thing when I went through their firearms instructor school, you know, oh, you're qualified. Okay, you're good. Now we're going to do these drills. And there was no teach backs. There's no learning how to be an instructor.

[Brian]

So I'm glad.

[Graham]

And you know, like I said for, for me, my wake up call. Because again, we focused on accuracy. Even when I went to swat, it was right. And then they were like, okay, you, you can shoot.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Graham]

You've proven you can shoot. Now start speeding up. We want you to start pushing yours. Get on that, like, get on that trigger.

[Brian]

Right, right.

[Graham]

And then, you know, maybe you'll eventually get to the point where we kind of start. Okay, okay. Now this is your sweet spot or whatever, you know, so you try to, try to build that and then, but for Me. It was going to Rob Latham's class.

[Brian]

Absolutely.

[Brandon]

I think you were.

[Graham]

Yeah, we were together. And when you're like, hey, when did that. Like, for me, that's when that clicked. And I was like, yeah. He's like, slap that trigger. And I'm like, yeah. I was always told not to.

[Brandon]

No, no, that's not right. Yeah.

[Graham]

And I was like, I was doing it. And you're sitting there and you're doing it, and you're like, holy crap, man. This is work. I can. I can be right. Push accuracy and speed in this class.

[Brian]

They're married.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And it's funny, you know, because people. A lot of people don't know this, and there's some people that do because they'll. They'll go and, you know, Chance and I'll be on the range training with each other. Like, we'll just. We'll just set up a session, just us and come up with new drills or whatever the case may be. And, I mean, we'll burn through 2500 rounds in a couple hours, and we'll have barrels and targets and target stands and cones and, I mean, mags all over the place. And we're, like, dripping sweat, and it looks like our targets were shot with buckshot at 50 yards 100 times. Like, there's rounds everywhere, you know, and people come in and they look at it, and they're like, man, that target doesn't look good. I'm like, did you understand what we do? We are, like, we are pushing ourselves so far beyond what we thought is possible right now. Like, literally out of breath, dripping sweat, training.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

You know, and just to squeeze another drop out of what we can do. And you learn so much from that session. Compared to just from the mistakes going.

[Brandon]

Yes, for sure.

[Brian]

Compared to just going to the range and. And firing 50 rounds for practice and saying, I'm good for the month. Like, dude, get out. Get the out of here. You know? Like, that is nothing. That doesn't teach you anything.

[Brandon]

I mean, you know, it doesn't. And. And at the end of the day, I think we all were going to schools, and it had to be a fist size. And then, you know, okay, now I'm having to cut the little paper, so I don't even have. I'm just shooting, and it's going through the holes because I made such a big hole, and if I didn't have that, I'm like, I'd be mad. But if I had that, man, I was happy. The speed was not even a frame of mind. Yeah. And then I remember the first class I, I, I had, and that was not the case. And it was. I had to mentally think, oh, damn it, I would. And they're like, no, that was good. Hey, why'd you do that? Oh, well, yeah, matter of fact, I know why I did that. That's why this did that. And that was the paradigm shift for me when I realized, because I'd go to classes and I would be one of the top one or two guys in a class, but that didn't really mean anything. Now when I host these classes and you got, you know, world champion shooters or these GMs, and you're like, holy, we're so far behind what that guy can do. And now I'm like, dude, it's changed so much for, for me, and I know for y'all as well, we've had several conversations about that when we talk a lot of on text with a bunch of people and stuff, and. But I think that's what we need to push. And I think y'all are in a great spot. Being in a large department, being the range guys, being able to go, hey, here's what we're pushing out. So what are y'all doing different at a and a basic academy? Guys coming through in firearms now that are.

[Brian]

So what's doing this, man?

[Brandon]

So these guys are going to want to know, okay, what are these guys doing?

[Brian]

Well, yeah, we got support from the command staff, which is the biggest thing.

[Brandon]

This is dangerous, man.

[Brian]

Like, yeah, yeah. I mean, so I'll let Chansey touch on this here in a second, because he has a good way of explaining the difference between range rules and safety rules. Right. But day two, our recruits are shooting on the move on day two, and they don't stop their feet moving for the most part. We train zero to the qual. There is literally nothing that has to do with the quall that is trained.

[Chansey]

No stage quality.

[Brian]

There's no nothing. I mean, we start out with the most important stuff, which is grip and what you can get away with at the trigger, you know, and the level of confirmations. And we run doubles, little bills and bills, and we run that for about three quarters of a day total. And then the feet are moving and we are doing, we're, we're pushing them, and we've had great success doing that. Instead, compared to the old way of the static line, the shooting on the move, where everybody moves in one, you know, at one time, in a snake line, it. You got instructors yelling, speed up, slow down. Grabbing students pushing Them in the back. Like, they, that is the farthest thing from reality in, in law enforcement. And because a couple things are true, I think in law enforcement engagements, it's the bad guys moving, the officers moving, or both are moving. Very rarely are you on a static line and the dude's on a static line, and it's like you're waiting for the beep to draw your gun and shoot, you know, and so let's, we start teaching that out the gate and we, we were able to get the right people in front of the right people and put them on the range and, and run them through these drills and for them to have success and then in turn for them to say, okay, like, yeah, like I get it now.

[Brandon]

How do you teach accuracy, though?

[Chansey]

I mean, well.

[Brian]

Oh, come on now you're talking about.

[Chansey]

Accuracy is so many people, whenever you talk about stuff like that is they think that you forego accuracy. And at the end of the day, good enough is, good enough is. And, and historically with law enforcement, if you're not putting it in the snuff can. Yeah, it ain't good enough. Okay, well, what's your acceptable target area?

[Brandon]

Right.

[Chansey]

What is good enough? What are we shooting it? You know, if I'm, if I'm shooting at the picture, it's up there on the wall.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

You got, if I hit in the top right corner, right in the dead mental. I still hit the picture. Okay. I'm not talking about some super, you know, super tight shot, some quarter value.

[Brian]

Yeah. No sniper, limited exposure.

[Chansey]

We're talking in the distance of this table or inside this room.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Okay, well, if we can put it in something the size of our hand and we can do so quickly. Yeah, that's winning on the law enforcement side of the house. Okay. Now we're not saying that you shouldn't be able to stop what you're, you know, to be able to focus and train on the ability to put it in snuff can. However, we're talking about two different things. If you have time, take it. If you don't, you better know how to be able to get it done.

[Brian]

That's the biggest thing is we tell people, never stop aiming. Like, I want to put out. I, my desire is to put every bullet through the same hole. That's my desire.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Brian]

Like, I want that, you know, but understand that that's not the reality of things, you know, And I, and I do a thing with the recruits and, and I'll, you know, I'll, I'll touch my chest and I'LL put my two fingers next to each other. And I'm like, hey, if I shoot two rounds and they're touching each other right here in. In 1.8 seconds, that's really good, right? And the recruits are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, cool. But if you go against somebody who puts around here and here, and they're five inches apart and they do it in 1.1 seconds, who's winning the gunfight?

[Unknown]

Yep.

[Brian]

And they're like, ah, that guy. Yeah, yeah. Be okay with that. Like, that is good enough at speed.

[Brandon]

And the thing, too, is a good foundation of grip correlates into accuracy.

[Brian]

100.

[Brandon]

So it's like, okay, the less the gun's moving, the more accurate I can be and the faster I can be, because that gun's not going everywhere. It's now moving at a predictable pattern. And so. But like, that was never, ever taught to me. No.

[Brian]

Grip was 60, 40, 70, 30, 100, whatever.

[Brandon]

Well, I don't know what that is.

[Brian]

Pinning the trigger.

[Chansey]

Yeah. You had to build tension in your chest and in your shoulders, and you had to roll your head forward and turtle up. You had to really manhandle this 9 millimeter pistol. For the love of God, man.

[Brandon]

So now I'm like, yeah, the accuracy has to do with grip.

[Brian]

Yes.

[Brandon]

I mean, that, that is a huge factor in grip. I mean, inaccuracy is the damn grip. Especially when you're now doing multiple shots, one shot, man.

[Brian]

It's funny, man.

[Brandon]

Get away a lot of shit, you know?

[Brian]

You know, you have, like, the seven fundamentals of shooting, and every one of them, back in the before time, it was like they were equal, like stance and grip and trigger control and side alignment, side picture and breathing and fall. The way we teach stance now, it's a luxury. It doesn't matter. You're not going to be toes on the line, squared up, waiting for the beep. You could be sitting at a table in your car. You could be standing with one foot on the curb. And so it's just to. To really dumb it down with the way we approach things. Is the. The epitome of the fundamentals is grip?

[Brandon]

Yeah, it's grip for sure.

[Chansey]

We'll demo it. Sit in a chair and shoot a build drill and just rail on a bill drill. Sitting in a chair.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

And people look at you crazy. I'm saying my feet are just. I mean, come on, man.

[Brandon]

Yeah. Because to me, I look at quote in quotation marks. I'm making air quotes. Stance, in my opinion, now what it means for me is just, it's setting myself up for movement, not for shooting. It's setting myself up to move, to be dynamic and moving this way to be explosive, to cut an angle off, things like that. It's not necessarily setting me up for my shooting platform, it's just for my movement.

[Brian]

And that's exactly the way we explain it is you set yourself up for success.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And if that means having to get in and out of position, then that's what you need to do. You know, it's not, it's not building this foundation to where you won't get rocked back on your heels by this little 9 millimeter pistol. Like that is the furthest thing from what stance should be, you know, like, what are you trying to accomplish here? You know, and how can you be successful moving forward? If I have to have follow up shots or move and engage somewhere else or somewhere different or do something different. Set yourself up for that. Yeah, whatever that may be. And you're going to be successful because.

[Brandon]

CQB is not stand on the line shooting.

[Chansey]

Right.

[Brian]

Exactly.

[Brandon]

You know, there's, there's a pace that you're, that you're having to move and your feet are going to get crossed up, they're going to get tangled up, they're going to.

[Brian]

Okay, you can't cross your feet down.

[Brandon]

You never can do that, man. You know, you never can cross your feet.

[Brian]

That's one thing that we, that is actually a battle we fought, man. Believe it or not, that is a battle that we fought and we fought it for a while and we finally disproved all these people. And it's.

[Chansey]

They too, with the recruits.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

I mean, bar hop. And they look like, they look like baby deer. Yeah, initially. And then the light bulb comes on.

[Brandon]

Yeah. And that, that bar hop, man, going from two targets to another target. That thing is a minor racer sometimes. Like, I like it because when I've had high end shooters tell me that's one of the most mentally taxing thing, I'm like, okay, good. It's just not me.

[Brian]

It's funny, man, because. So Chancey went to Ben's class, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And I'll never forget it. He came back, he came back to the range and I didn't get to go. And Chance, he's like, man, come in here, grab a bunch of bullets. Like, let's grab your shit, let's go.

[Brandon]

Is that the one we went together?

[Brian]

And so, you know, I go on the range of Chansey and he throws a stick on the Ground. And I'm like, what doing right now? And he's like, watch this. So he does it and so I try to do it. And I'm like, this is the dumbest shit I've ever done in my life, dude. He's motherfucking me. So, Genti, this is so dumb. Like, you brought me in here to do this. Like, I could be doing other things. And yeah, I. But then the light bulb clip, you know, and I, hands down, I think it is such a phenomenal drill because you can look at it in so many different ways. You can evaluate it as a movement drill, you can evaluate it as a transition drill.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

You can evaluate it as a vision drill. You know, how fast are you lingering on a target? Are your eyes leading the gun? You know, I mean, so now it's one of the cornerstones of what we do with the recruits. And once I figured it out, you know, it took me, what, a few reps at it to finally figure it out.

[Chansey]

Like, you looked at me all at the side of your head like, what the hell?

[Brian]

Yeah. And then, and then you're like, no, just do this and this instead. And I did it. And I'm like, man, that is. That's a great drill, you know, and it's something that is. It's so simple and, but yet so difficult for people to do. And it's like, listen, two shots, two shots, two shots, 2 shots, you know, and take one step over the stick.

[Chansey]

Get to your feet.

[Brian]

I mean, and they're like. And it's like, they forget how to walk, they forget how to shoot. I mean, it's like.

[Brandon]

Yeah, because if you're on the right side of that stick and you're a right handed shooter and you're going to your left, if you don't take that right hand, that right foot back first and you go with your left, man, you're taking an extra step.

[Chansey]

And people tell you by the time.

[Brandon]

You get there, by the time you get everything. But if you go back to tradition, never cross your feet, then you're adding an extra step that you don't need to. And, and the gun is moving. Yeah, and the gun's moving more. And it's just, just try. Like, what would you naturally do? It would be that right there.

[Brian]

And that's.

[Chansey]

You just explain it.

[Brian]

You just nailed it right there. And that word that you just used was natural. We, we tell our students, move natural.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Whatever that means to you. And when we demo it, whether it's me demoing it for the recruits, or chance he's on the range demoing it in classes or whatever the case may be. We will intentionally say this is what we don't want to see. And we will take that inside step first and we'll have the students looking at our head and the level of our head and how it dips down and then comes back up. It's like a U shaped almost. Instead of just flowing across as you're moving, you know, because when it flows across naturally as you're moving across the stick, that's natural.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

If you step in a way that's not natural, you're going to put your body in a position that's not natural, which is not conducive to shooting.

[Brandon]

Yeah. Well, you look at soccer players, man, I mean, they're crossing their feet and it's all just a natural form of how their feet are moving to get the ball down the field or back to back and, you know, back and forth and that their feet are crossing all the time and doing all kinds of crazy shit. But their footwork is so solid because also they work on it. It's kind of like us. I mean, you're not working necessarily. Okay, I gotta step here, then this foot goes here. But it's just the natural working of your muscles understanding, hey, here's how I naturally move. Now I'm gonna speed up now. It's gonna be more of an athletic movement, which is still.

[Graham]

That's what I was about to key on when you, when you brought up sports. So when we're teaching that like movement, you should have purpose behind it first. Right. You're not just moving to move.

[Brian]

Right, Right.

[Graham]

But then you should be athletic in your motion. Right. And so start with that stance and get ready to move if you have to. Right. So we get them thinking like that and it's kind of explaining the why this is why we would do this. Like, why would I do that? Well, I don't know what situation you're going to be in, but you could be moving to get that shot.

[Brian]

Right.

[Graham]

You could be moving up to a hostage or whatever. So we have to get between the hostage, hostage taker. So we're kind of explaining that the why, making them a little bit better as well as instructors, hopefully.

[Brian]

Sure.

[Graham]

And then, and then the one, the other one I like throwing is my vision.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Graham]

I don't want to be moving somewhere I can't see. Right. There's a chance for failure there. So stay athletic, stay purpose driven and.

[Chansey]

All, all of that breaks the mold from the way that we were traditionally taught.

[Brian]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chansey]

100% always is just a static line stuff.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And, you know, the. You just brought it up, Graham. You know, we were always taught, and I remember being taught, and I'm guilty of teaching it in years past before we finally, like, hit pause and said, okay, what are we doing right now? You know, and that's the whole. Never step into an unknown, you know, And I had an instructor tell me one time, he goes, that's cool. And we pulled a car into the range, and he goes, your raffles in the trunk. Yep. He goes, okay, walk up to the trunk and open the trunk and grab your rifle. When you hear the timer, shoot the target downrange. And if you're facing something, whether you're getting something out of your trunk or whatever the case may be, and something is immediately behind you and there's something blocking in front of you, how do you step to the known that you have to take a step backwards to an unknown? He goes, just move naturally. Like, how would you naturally get out of this position right now and get into a shooting position? Just do that naturally. He goes, you can't step to the known. The known's in front of you, and there's a trunk. There's a car in front of you. So step into the car. Like, are you gonna climb into the trunk? Like, no, you're going to naturally move and put yourself into a position to shoot. And so, you know, for the longest time when we would teach, it's like, you don't ever step to the unknown. You're gonna trip and fall.

[Chansey]

Head, body, weapon, Brian.

[Brian]

Yeah. Head, body, weapon. Like, let's. Let's be real. Like, I mean, how many times do you step to the unknown in every day? In the real world, when you turn.

[Brandon]

A corner, you don't know what's exactly.

[Brian]

Or if you're talking to somebody and somebody says, hey, behind you and you turn, you step backwards to see who it was. I mean, does that mean people are falling all over the place every day? No. I mean, let's be practical and real and trained to reality. Just whatever. Whatever position you're in, naturally put yourself into a position to succeed, and you will succeed. Yeah, don't think about, I need to put my left foot back here, my right foot forward. I need to do this and that. Just naturally move into a position to succeed, and you will be successful.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

And that. That circles back to the whole environment thing. You know, I keep beating it, beating that horse for people. But, like, the environment, as far as where you can, where you can move, how you can move all of that. At the end of the day, whenever you go into an, into a range environment, if Everybody calls a seven yard line hot on 14 to the seven yard line. Right? Yeah, I totally get that when we're doing some static drills. But at the end of the day, whenever these people, especially you think incumbents, for that matter, when you're running quals, they come in there and you tell them nobody can go downrange. And I'm not talking about in. In an unsafe manner in any way, shape or form, but these people are expected to carry a gun in their hand.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

In public, in the city of a million people.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

But you're not going to let them walk around their peers with a gun in their hand. People have lost their damn mind. So, I mean, and this is the way we run. Our training is in no way, shape or form is it unsafe. We believe in any way.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Okay. But we're going to have, we're going to have separate. We're going to have some separation between people. And there may be people downrange doing something, taping a target, whatever the case may be. But if the person that is quote up range from them were to discharge around in that direction, it is 100% intentional for that to happen. Right. That's the way we set it up so that, so that the training can carry on and that people can move around with a gun in a more natural way. If you've got to go from point A to point B. Yeah. With the damn pistol in your hand.

[Brian]

Yeah. It's funny.

[Chansey]

You got to get real, man.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Let's go.

[Brian]

So Chancey and I were huge believers in demoing every single drill.

[Brandon]

Yeah. You have to.

[Brian]

And here's the deal. We're both human. Have I messed up a demo? Has Chancey messed up a demo? Yeah, but we're going to do it right. We're not the dudes that attempt a demo and say, just do the opposite of me now. But with that being said, we just ran an instructor school a month and a half ago or so, whatever it was. And back at our house, we, you know, if I'm on the seven yard line demoing something, I will have a horseshoe of students around me all the way to the three yard line, you know, and, and they're about, you know, four, three and a half, four feet left to right of me, but they're down range. And there was a student who during teach backs had real heartburn with that. And he's like, man, that would never go. Like, if I'm at the 7, there's nobody allowed to be at the 7, and everybody's at the 10 yard line when I'm demoing at the 7. And I'm like, okay. I mean, if that's your, if that's your agency's deal, you know, like I did, I get that. You know, but they're not learning anything. And like, Chancey and I will encourage our student. I want you to walk around and get different angles of me shooting. Like, if you start on the left side during my demo, I want you to end up on the right side and vice versa. Like, and we're talking through our demos. We're having students move all around us. You know, we set range limits down range. And. And he's like, well, it's just, it's not unsafe and somebody could get shot. I said, if I shoot somebody who is 5ft to my left and 4ft in front of me, that is just as intentional as if I shot the dude standing shoulder to shoulder next to me. Yeah, like, that is criminal. That has nothing to do with range safety. That is, I mean, that and that to me, that, I don't understand that. And I get. Agencies have their policies and nobody can be downrange or whatever, but in a, in a learning environment, I want my students to be up close and on top of me while I'm demoing and seeing what I'm talking about.

[Brandon]

Well, you just go, okay, hey, new guy, you go through the basic academy now, you go to FTO and you walk up on whoever what kind of call it is, and it's two guys. You're not going to stand next to each other. You're going to get some type of L on the guy. Well, someone's quote downrange.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

I mean, huh. So the first time I ever done it, now I have the real bullets with real people, real consequences. That's what always gets me. I mean, I mean, you look at these felony stops we have, you look at some of these officer involved shootings and like, these have no clue what's going on. And I guarantee you it was all aesthetic line.

[Chansey]

It was their training sets them up for failure.

[Brandon]

It does. I mean, you get, you get in a raid van on a SWAT day, dude, there's rifles, I mean, you're getting.

[Chansey]

There'S guns being swaddling bang poles.

[Brandon]

Yeah. I mean, come on. It's like there's, there's, there's, there's mechanisms in effect with the safety on Your rifle. Like, we're not running off safe. Like, if I'm gonna shoot you, I'm having to go off safety, put my finger in the trigger and do all that getting out of the van. Then you know what that is. Like you said, I'm intentionally trying to.

[Brian]

That is criminal. That is intentional.

[Brandon]

So we had. That drives you crazy.

[Graham]

In reality based training the other day, you know, I would run that and I was running it. I'm new to these guys as an instructor, so I'm like, hey, go out. We're gonna go out here. We're getting ready to go hot with our simmunition rounds. So we're safety checks first, right? So everybody go out in the hallway, blah, blah, blah. And so they're going. And they're like, hey, knives. And I'm like. He grabs his knife and I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, I got a knife in my pocket. I'm like, you're good. He's like, oh, they told us. I was like, you're good. And I said, I said, trust me.

[Brandon]

If you.

[Graham]

In the. During this scenario, if you take your knife out. Yeah, that fixed blade knife. And right. You get the blade out and you stab somebody. I go, you're going to jail.

[Brian]

Yeah, it's criminal. I go.

[Graham]

I go, that's a criminal offense. And there's intent behind it. And there's probably some personal thing going on between you two that I don't know either.

[Brian]

Who's going to jail, who's paying. Yeah, yeah.

[Graham]

I go, you're going to jail. And he's like, thank you for taking a common sense approach. I'm like, yeah, just leave it in your deal. You will not need this knife. Trust me and say, yeah.

[Unknown]

Oh.

[Graham]

But it's kind of goes back to.

[Chansey]

What you say comes back to environment man.

[Graham]

And again. And that's probably what before is like, hey, this is. And I get it. That's your. Like you said, if that's your department's policy, that's fine. But I'm like, I'm telling you, it's okay.

[Brian]

Yeah, well, yeah. And so like in this scenario, right, this guy was doing a teach back and he. And he was doing fine on the teach back, you know, because our instructor school. You got it, you have to teach. It's teach a lot. You don't just show up and get a cert saying you're a quote unquote instructor, right? So they were doing one of the teach backs on the drills that we do that, you know, it starts Kind of at like sexual distance. You know, you're at like the one yard line and you.

[Brandon]

Sexual distance.

[Brian]

Sexual distance. Can you say that or not?

[Brandon]

No, I was, I thought that what you said.

[Brian]

It is what I said, but I thought.

[Brandon]

Did he say. Describe that as tic tac in my head, thought sexual. I'm like, let me, let me clarify this because.

[Brian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're on top of them, right?

[Brandon]

Yeah, I like that.

[Brian]

And you are, you are backing out and engaging out. Yeah, yeah. Not pulling out, backing out.

[Brandon]

Okay.

[Brian]

Yeah. So you're backing out, but you're engaging forward.

[Brandon]

Is Chansey behind you when you're backing out?

[Graham]

So don't engage. Encouraging.

[Brian]

So you're.

[Brandon]

I'm getting excited. Yeah.

[Brian]

I've been to shot show with you. I know how this goes. Brandon, I know how this goes. So. No, but you back out and you engage while you're backing out. It's, it's like if you walk up to a traffic stop and you, you get to the window and a dude has a gun, you're not going to just stand there, you're going to back out while you're drawing your gun and engaging.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Brian]

So that kind of mimics what we're doing. And so on this one particular thing, he was the, he was the mouthpiece for this teach back and he had his partner who was doing the demo. They were at the, you know, the one and a half, two yard line and the class is at the 10 yard line. And I'm walking up listening to what they're saying and I know what they're saying and I know that they're, they demoed it the way that we would like them to, you know, the, you know, the correct way, the incorrect way or the most common errors that you see as an instructor. And if you see this on happen, then this is probably what's going on. And then you always finish with the correct way. Right. So they were at the portion where they were doing the incorrect way. Like this is the most common thing we see people do. So they demo it. And I was like, okay, pause. And I asked the class standing at the 10 yard line, you know, and Jared was in that section with me and I said, do you know what they're doing right now? And they're like, yeah, it looks like they messed up a demo. Well, yeah, they did, they did, but do you know why? And they're like, I'm like, dude, get your class up here like on you, like in your back pocket.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

So they can hear and see and Feel everything that you're trying to let them hear, see, and feel. You know, that kind of goes to what you were just. You know, what you were talking about, the practical side of things, you know, like, it's. And range rules and safety rules and. And company policies or whatever dictate all that. But is it conducive to learning?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

So much of that, you know, you're talking about the. The policies and things that happen with. With departments, and then we've had to battle it at ours, you know, is. It comes down to what I would argue is individual people's egos.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Because, man, we as cops, everybody's got an ego.

[Brandon]

Oh, yeah.

[Chansey]

Just how. How inflated is it? You know, and to go out there and to learn how to do this and to do it at a. You know what I would consider a high level. You're gonna have to put that damn ego aside, because guess what? There's somebody out there that can whoop your ass.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[Brandon]

Yeah. No, for sure.

[Chansey]

And you ought to open your eyes and look at those people and learn something from them, because at the end of the day, the best shooters in the world. Guess what? They don't wear a badge, and they don't wear.

[Graham]

You know, they're out on the range shooting every day.

[Unknown]

Damn.

[Chansey]

Right.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

They're freaking, you know, digging ditches.

[Brandon]

Yep.

[Chansey]

You know.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Run it. Pulling electrical wires, whatever the hell the case may be.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

But those people do it because they want to be good at it. Well, we carry a gun for a living.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

It's incumbent upon us to be good with the gun.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

And that at the end of the day, that's what we want out of all of our. All of our people.

[Brandon]

There's a few people that I follow on Instagram that are civilians, and a couple of them are women that shoot probably four or five times a week. And I'm like, man. And they have normal jobs and stuff. I'm like, I love that dedication. Like, you shoot more than 95% of police officers.

[Brian]

Oh, yeah. By far. And, yeah. You know what Chancey is talking about? The whole ego thing is we've all been to those schools where the instructor wants to be the baddest dude on the range, and they'll tell you that they're the baddest dude on the range. And they may or may not demo things, but they'll. They'll live on what they have, maybe. Maybe have or have not done in the past. Right. And the biggest thing That I always tell students is at the end of the class, I want, I me as the instructor, I want to be the worst shooter on the range. Like that's my goal.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

I want to be the worst dude standing in here. And if one student beats me in a drill and they get all high five and you know like that fills my heart with joy because that means that at least one person got something out of this class.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Like I, I want, I want to be at the end. I want to be the worst dude.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Well I remember Rob Latham, you know those clip. I mean they would do those drills and you know, it wasn't like he was like I'm just going to half ass this and if you beat him you're like hey man, yeah, congrats. You, you, you legitimately beat me. And you know, if you were doing like oh man, at least I got one on him, you know, and stuff like that. So. And, and that means something because there's just a different as, as a student to see the instructor be able to do that, it's, it's, it's very humbling. I love like known like we've had the class and we ate dinner. The next day during lunch we're demoing, we're coming up with this new drill. Yeah. And then he goes man, hey, I'm going to let me go to Yalls class. I mean to me when the instructor is able to do that, man, it speaks volumes because they're willing to go, hey man, I'm going to learn from you, man. I learned this, I learned that like Mike's class, every time he comes, it's always added to. There's always something that he's adding to the class.

[Chansey]

It was great whenever Mike flew out and came to our class. That we did.

[Brandon]

Yeah. I mean y'all were his students and now you know, or y'all. Yeah. And then vice versa. So I think that's, that's a testament to. And that's the way range guys should be. But they're not. Most range people give you the excuse of well, I mean we got to teach the common, lowest, common bullshit. Yeah. This we can't do. Well, it's hard to do what you do if you're going to do it properly.

[Chansey]

To be a range takes a hell of a lot more work.

[Brandon]

Yeah. I mean you're have, I mean you better be done like range day. Oh my gosh. I'm like beat.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Our asses will be whipped.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Saturday about 6 o'clock. Sunday about 6 o'clock we'll be dragging ass back in here for some chow and get the rack.

[Brandon]

Yeah. And so that, to me, it goes back to being lazy, not really understanding what I'm teaching besides just, hey, this is what was taught to me. I can teach this person who has no idea, never shot a gun. I can give them the call, and that's all I need to do.

[Chansey]

That's. Yeah, I mean, just regurgitate.

[Brian]

Because for the longest time, you know, they. The. The drill sheets or whatever the. Whatever the case may be. It, you know, it was like you had a booklet for like, this is what we're teaching. This is what we're teaching this week. And it was like, you know, you'd read through three pages of stuff before you figured out what the drill was. And it was like, remind the students of this. Remind the students of this. Remind the students of this. Load three magazines at 10, stand at the 10 yard line. Remind the students of this reminder. You know, and so when Chancey and I go and teach, and especially when we go outside of Texas and teach, you know, we have guys come up and we're like, hey, can we get your drill sheet? And we're like, yeah, we don't have one. And they're like, what do you mean you don't have one? And it's because we teach to the class. We teach to the needs of the class. And you're constantly evaluating and reading the class. And It's a quick 20 second, 30 second, one minute conversation that Chancey will have on the side like, okay, this is the way the class is progressing. This is the next drill that we would most likely run, but let's hold off on that and let's run this drill instead that we planned on doing after lunch. We're going to run that now because it's going to be more beneficial to the class. And we'll pluck this drill out and stick it in after lunch and pluck this one in from after lunch and stick it in right now. And not teaching to a script and not reading. All students, load three magazines at 10, stand on the 10 yard line. Suck start your pistol on the beat, fire two shots, be. And I'm like, man, my 11 year old knows how to read. He could run this school.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

That is not teaching. That is not teaching. Firearms.

[Unknown]

No.

[Brian]

Like, you have to be able to evaluate the class and teach to the class. And as long as you meet the goal at the end, you know you're successful. And what happens in the middle, as long as everything happens in the middle. That happens in the middle. The order doesn't matter. It doesn't. As long as you cover it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

At the end of the day, whenever you're trying to get somebody to do something with a firearm, if you can't exceed what you expect them to do as the instructor, what the hell are you really doing?

[Brandon]

Yeah, no, because.

[Chansey]

Okay, we want, we want somebody. Okay, this is acceptable. This is pretty good. And this is wow. If you want them to be wow shooters, you'll be able to. Better be able to pull some wow shoot out again. You know what I mean?

[Brian]

There's so much possible.

[Graham]

I like when guys are. You get them on the range and the incumbents, right? And you're pushing this stuff and, and you guys probably have a lot of, you know, lateral officers coming over. You're starting to see that more, right? And you get there and they're. They're kind of like, you know, they're kind of start. And they're kind of like a little hesitant in it because they're pinning the trigger, what they were taught. And you're like, yes, don't do that. And they're like, oh, okay. And then we're. And by the end of that day, they're like, you know, they're smoking that drill and they're. You could just see them in their freaking holes are like, they're like waiting for the next drill. And you're like, man, that, that, like you said, that's the stuff that.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Makes my heart happy.

[Graham]

Yeah. Because you're like, he pushed himself and no one has had him do that before on the range, man.

[Chansey]

Exactly.

[Graham]

And again, I've been guilty of it too. Hey, we're going to sit here until that guy figures it out. And I'm like, man, we can't do that.

[Brandon]

Right?

[Graham]

All eight of the guys in class, what. They're, they're, they're not getting what they're. They should be getting out of this class because we're focused on this one guy. So let him push and push and push.

[Chansey]

And then what you're saying right there, Graham, is like, last year we went, we went to the, we went to the Chiefs and we said, look, we want to do a practical pistol refresh class with our department. And they got on board and they were like, yes, we want it to happen. And the two of us went up there and we said, listen, don't make it mandatory. We made phone calls because we all know how cops are. Whenever you say it's mandatory training, I mean, it's Hellfire, Brimstone. I mean, it's pitchforks in the streets. And, you know, and last year, I think, what, 40. A little better than 40 classes, Brian.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

That we did okay for that. Yep. And we have everybody fill out evals at the end of it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

So that we have something in our hand in writing to do that we can take in hand to them. And I mean, absolute rave reviews for that. People that were. That never had the chance to fail and not feel like they were going to get somebody. Feel like somebody's going to put their boot on their neck.

[Unknown]

Yep.

[Chansey]

You know, to go out there and learn. Because at the end of the day, I mean, let's be real, man. We learn from the failure of this, not from the success of it.

[Brandon]

You do, and I think you know that then that inductive learning style is so good for that. I mean, like. And I think now I'm able. I used to never know what my problem was or if I'd look at somebody. I'm like, oh, think you're slapping the trigger. I think you're doing this. Now I can see. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a grip issue. Oh, that's a. That's a guy who is tracking that dot. That's a vision issue.

[Brian]

He's locking on the. Yeah. He's sucked into the window.

[Brandon]

He's doing this, he's doing that. And it's usually about one or two things. Every once in a while, there's a. There's something else that might be causing it or, you know, some extra input in the gun or things like that. But other than that, there's. There's only a few things that you're really doing.

[Chansey]

You're right.

[Brandon]

And that's it. But yet if you're never told that made it simple. You're like, oh, it's. It's always, I'm doing this or I'm doing that, and you don't know what you're doing.

[Chansey]

And so many instructors go up there and they take the damn spaghetti approach. They'll throw every damn thing at the wall and see what sticks. They'll throw everything at them. What could possibly be going wrong.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

And let them just figure it out. And instead of telling them to tie their brain to one thing. Okay. Either. Either stop doing or do this very thing. Focus on this. And whenever that's fixed. And now what do we have? Now we have building blocks to work on.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

To fix the things. Because, damn it, let's be real. Shooting is simple.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

And we Say this in class, Brian and I, it's two plus two, but damn it, cops try to make that five.

[Brandon]

Yeah, they do the concepts.

[Brian]

And I think, you know, what you were just talking about, Brandon, is, you know, throwing all those things out there and. And, you know, I'll ask a student, do you feel yourself doing this?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, okay, then stop.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And I'll walk away. I just walk away. And then I'll watch from afar. And they're still doing it. And I'm like, okay. I know now that they don't feel or know what they're doing. They don't want to be that guy that says, I don't know. That's cool. And actually, we did a class back at the end of last year, and Chris came out and did a bunch of video and pictures and stuff for us. And one of the things that we like to do is we'll put our hands on people's hands and make them put hands on ours. And I'm like, okay, now I want you to be my support hand. I crush the gun with your hand. I'm going to run the trigger. Yeah, this is what it feels like with zero input. And I'll just rail on the gun while they're holding it with their support hand. And I'm like, do you feel anything other than me pressing the trigger? And they're like, no. And I'm like, okay, cool. This is what you're doing. And I will influence the gun negatively. And they're like, okay, yeah, I feel that. And I'm like, yeah, you feel it now because you're not doing it, because what you're doing is just your natural shooting style.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

But now pay attention to what that felt like. And when you feel it for yourself, correct it. And they will immediately make corrections, you know, and. And being able to. To do something like that. And I. I think TTPO put out a video of me, of me explaining that, you know, and demoing that.

[Brandon]

I think it's. It's amazing to me, and I'll get yalls opinion, but I think I want to know the answer. So what is. What is the main thing when y'all go teach? I'm not talking about academy, but you go teach other law enforcement guys that have been doing this job. What's the major problem that you see with. With their shooting? What fundamental issue are y'all see?

[Brian]

Grip.

[Chansey]

It's 100%. It's the grip. That's in the fact that they feel like they have to stage a trigger because they're taught to pull the trigger. Like it's a two stage trigger on a 20 inch, you know, a two national match in it.

[Brandon]

It's amazing to me that guys, you know, they'll come to advanced SWAT school, you know, or whatever the case may, or they'll come to, you know, Ben Steger class or whatever. And some of these guys, you look at them and they're shooting. I'm like, dude, I can see from five people down your grip sucks because there's a, almost an inch gap between your, your hands. Right. How do you think you're going to hold this gun if there's a gap?

[Chansey]

A feeble ass.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Person.

[Brandon]

Yeah. I'm like, how is. Are you telling. Hey, you need to. Oh, I didn't know that. I've always shot it. No one's ever told me that. I'm like, that's the biggest. Who taught you to shoot?

[Chansey]

Show them how to hold the gun. Yeah, I'll literally have people put their right arm out and I'll grab a hold of their wrist and I will show them how I hold on to the gun, which I put on the pistol so that they can conceptualize what that is like.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Chansey]

Because that whole deal like we talked about earlier in this, the whole 60, 40, 70, 30. Well, I can't tell you what 6040 is for, Brandon. Yeah, I got. Hold the gun tight enough. There's there such thing as too much. Absolutely. Is there? So much is too little. Without question. Damn it. You got to find what's right for you. And at the end of the day, this shit takes work. You have got to put time in holding the gun, shooting the gun and doing the thing.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

And there's, there's no substitute for it. You can't go buy it. You can't. That's it, man.

[Brian]

And it comes back to what you just asked Brandon. It's, it's always it's grip. Right. And, and once we get that figured out, then it's to what Chance, he was saying, it's like on a Glock, you got that, take up that slack, that mush, and then you got a wall. You know, for the longest time it was get to the wall and slowly press, press, press for the surprise shot. Right, the surprise shot. And I mean, let's be real, who wants to be surprised when their gun goes off? In reality, you want to know exactly when it goes off. And so you know something, that one of the things that Chancey does in our classes and is he'll go over grip and the trigger, and he'll have guys just. Just barely touching the trigger. And on the beep, you press it through one motion and then finger in the trigger guard, off of the trigger, not making contact, and on the beep, go through and then straight finger along the frame. Because in reality, as cops, how do you run around the world?

[Brandon]

That's what I was about to get.

[Brian]

To like, how do you run around the world if you're not pointing your gun at somebody? Your finger is indexed along the frame. So we teach our people to go from the frame all the way through to the bang in one motion. And if you have a stable, solid grip, you will. Can. You can effectively do that and be extremely accurate and extremely fast. And that is the definition of slapping the trigger in the before time like.

[Chansey]

It owes you money. And what Brian's explaining right there is whenever we do that, because we start them just making contact with trigger.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

No, don't take the slack out.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Okay. Just touch it where you can tack. You can tactically feel it, you know, just barely touching your finger. So again, you do that and you go off the trigger, floating inside the trigger guard, and then go to the frame. Well, which one of those three is naturally going to. Going to induce more movement in the gun whenever you pull the trigger in one motion, obviously from the frame all the way through. Because what you have to move a further distance.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Well, whenever you have people and they can conceptualize that by seeing the results on the target. If they're target focused again, we're, you know, harping on that the whole time. Okay. And they see that the gun is moving more when I have to move further from it. Then what are you doing? You're incorporating the whole hand. Yeah, Nick, the negative influence on the Damn. On the gun happens with your strong hand.

[Unknown]

Yeah, sure.

[Chansey]

So guess what I mean, Light bulb moment, people. For sake. You know what I mean? Listen, crush the gun with your support hand.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

And do just enough with the strong hand. That's it. And to get them to understand what that is for them, because there is no carbon copy. There's no cookie cutter version for this.

[Brandon]

I mean, your hands are bigger than mine.

[Brian]

And.

[Brandon]

And there's. You're exactly right.

[Chansey]

Some dudes have giant sandwich grabbers. I mean, come on, they got cheat code sandwich grabs.

[Brandon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brian]

There's another chance. Heism.

[Brandon]

Well, I think so. The first time I saw that was when Ben came out in the first class that I was. That I had him out for. And he did that drill, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, Light bulb. Bam, bam. And after that, we were. We were driving home, and I was telling, man, that might be one of the best drills for law enforcement, because Absolutely. That's how many engagements we have of. Hey, man, let me see your hands. Your finger's not in the trigger. It's on the frame. And then all of a sudden, now it's time to shoot.

[Brian]

I need to shoot, right?

[Brandon]

And I'm going from here to there as fast as I can. And I'm like, that drill. And so now when we get new guys on our team or we do things with, like, a basic SWAT or advanced swat, that's one of the things that we teach. And, man, I love that. When the guys come out, we'll. We'll do it. Hey, man. Just from the front, from the frame, and you'll see man down here, low.

[Brian]

And left, and you'll see this.

[Brandon]

And then you'll see one. Okay. Oh, yeah. Where I am. And then. Hey, let's dry fire this drill. And then you dry fire. And then first one, you'll see it move.

[Chansey]

And then light bulb comes on.

[Brandon]

The light bulb comes on, and they're like, oh, this is what I have to do. All right, let's load them up. And then you're like, holy shit. Now. Now you got. You know, it's starting to shrink. Now you're not. You'll have, like, one flyer now, and then you start doing it, and the guys get it.

[Chansey]

That's like day two with recruits.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

We take them back. We'll do that up front. We'll stay at 7. We stay camped out there for a little while. Right. Manipulations and different stuff. And then day two, we jerk them back to 25 yards.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

And everybody's looking around. I mean, they're looking at me like a cow staring at a new gate. They don't know what the hell is going on. We get them back there, and what do we do? We have them simply hold the gun and aim the gun.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

And Brian and I will pull the trigger for.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Okay, so guess what? Ding, ding, ding. Every time we pull the trigger. Holding the dot. So what are we doing? As crazy as it may sound, we're checking their aimer. Yeah, they can aim the gun.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

So what? They're putting the dot on the middle of steel, and that's the gun hits the steel. Now we have them put their finger on the trigger.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Okay. And understand, we roll right through it. Hit the steel. Everything's Good. Then we'll go. We turn them loose and they understand. That's another thing with confirmation about how steady does the dot need to be.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Chansey]

You know? No, and that, and that gets them to understand that early in the game, instead of thinking that that's some. Some coveted thing that you can't let somebody understand. Well, for God's sake, man, these people need to know this out the gate. This whole withholding information and thinking that that's some advanced. There's nothing that's advanced about any of it.

[Brian]

And it's getting them to understand what right feels like.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And what it looks like. Because I can't see or feel what you see or feel right. But I can. Can. I can get you to feel what right feels like by pressing the trigger through your finger.

[Brandon]

Yeah, that's one of my go to dry fire drills that I do. Is that right there? Like, I. And now I. As soon as I hit that trigger. I know, because you see that dot just go movement or it moves a little bit, I'm like, man, no, that's still not it. And then right then. Oh, yeah, that's it. That's it. That's it. Oh, damn it. Like, that is a huge confirmation for me. The other trigger, true trigger control of what you're doing with grip.

[Brian]

And so you talk. I mean, it's funny you mentioned that because, I mean, I mean, I'm sure we've all. I know I've heard it and I've. I'm guilty of saying it. I know chance is too, because we, we come from the same area. But the old mentality of draft firing. Right. Like put a penny on the front side post.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And you should press the trigger and the penny should stay there.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Like that is the farthest thing from a legitimate dry fire. And I tell students, like, listen, when you're dry firing this, I want you to be aggressive on the trigger, and your dot should not leave your intended impact zone. Now, if your intended impact zone is an 8 by 11 piece of paper, you can rail on it. Rail on it. And as long as that dot never leaves the paper, those are all acceptable shots. That is a successful dry fire session. If it's a eyeball on a target, you got to be more deliberate. And every time it leaves, that is not a successful dry fire. You know, but the, the, the old way of dry firing where you put a penny or a piece of brass sticking, it's, you know, standing straight up on the, on the slide. And if you press the trigger and the brass Falls over. The penny falls over. Like that's a horrible trigger press. Dude, get the out of here with that. Like, like what is acceptable for what you're trying to accomplish? Because, I mean, I know when I dry fire, I'll change target sides, sizes.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And I'll go with something that's a BC size, steel at 10 yards. And I will just rail on a trigger and as long as the dot never leaves it. I know those are all hits. And then I'll switch to something that's like a light switch.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And it's more deliberate and it's more. It's not slower, it's just more deliberate and you're more conscious. And the level of confirmation has to be that much more.

[Brandon]

You have to.

[Chansey]

You're talking about the dry fire side of it. And I mean, how many, how many cops? Legit dry fire. I mean, let's be real.

[Brandon]

Very little.

[Chansey]

Very, very few.

[Brian]

Less than 5%, I would say.

[Chansey]

Until that point is, I think, I think Matt's doing like a dry fire block.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

This conference. Yeah, man. I hope it's full and I hope people will do it because you talk about some growth, you know, it's huge. I explained to people all Thomas said, you know, even like coming to a class, you go in there and you shoot a thousand rounds over two days, you're going to see improvement.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

You are. Because of repetition.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Chansey]

I mean, let's be real. Okay. So you see marked improvement. So you think, man, I'm, you know, I'm figuring this out. Well, guess what happens? Day three and you head to the house. It's already degrading. It's already doing that. You know, you can make marked improvement going out there and shooting in a two or three day class. That's great. And you may feel like you make great strides, but the reality of dry fire and then going out there and checking it, you know, putting bullets in the damn gun and going out there and checking it is. It's one thing to take strides and feel good about yourself. And it's another to go out there and have to work for it. Whenever you claw for inches and you feel like you're on your hands and knees. And when you claw for those inches.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

And you gain that inch, that son of a bitch is a hell of a lot more rewarding than that freaking giant step was that you took before.

[Brandon]

No good stuff. You're exactly right. It is a huge. I mean, I think Matt talks, you know, I've heard him, said it many times and stuff. It's like you put in all this work and it, it's mentally draining, physically draining. It's expensive for something you may never ever use.

[Chansey]

Like true story.

[Brandon]

Reality is you may never ever use.

[Chansey]

It and hopefully you don't. Let's be real.

[Brandon]

I mean. Yeah, you may never use. I don't care how high speed of SWAT guy you are, you may never use this skill. But when you do, it's the most.

[Brian]

Important day in your life.

[Chansey]

You better till that moment, you better.

[Brandon]

Be able to do what you need to do. And so. And I think that's. To me, the whole training just continues to give you confidence. Even on a bad day of training where I have, oh my God, Lee. I think I should go to a freaking, you know, bread a shotgun. I still know when I get in my truck and I go to work or we get called out or whatever the case may be, I know when test day comes, I know that I'm going to be able to perform and do what I need to do because I, I'm confident in the training because I've. The way I've been training now. I know. Hey man. Yeah. I didn't get all in the A zone. I did this build drill but I had one in a high season. You know what? That's damn good in a real shooting.

[Chansey]

Yeah. On a person.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

We're cooking with all the so And I think there's just different levels of where you're wanting to be in your own journey and stuff.

[Chansey]

So the movement doing that stuff is man, if. Whenever you're through training, if, if you're happy.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

You're patting yourself on the back whenever you leave. You didn't train.

[Unknown]

No.

[Chansey]

No.

[Brian]

100. I agree with that.

[Chansey]

Self hate. It's almost a self hate session.

[Brian]

Like you should be irritated when you need training.

[Graham]

You should be your toughest critic.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Graham]

Like, hey, I could, I could do this better. I need to get back out here.

[Brian]

Like Chancey and I will go train like I was talking about earlier. And it's like wolf videotape each other and, and talk to each other and coach each other and. And the targets look like hammered dog. Right. You know, and it. At the end of the day, you walk out of the range and you turn around and look back at the targets hanging. You're like, dude, that dude sucks.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Like that. Whoever shot that target, it sucks. Like that's a good day of training.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

You know, like it, it, it's because we're super hypercritical of each other and we push each other to that, you know, so far beyond our comfort zone every time. And if we went in there and felt good about everything, like, oh, yeah, that was a great training session. High five, bro. Like, love you mean it. Let's go. You know, like, that, that means in. In reality, that that's. That means nothing.

[Brandon]

Yeah, no, you're right. And I think what I, what I've started doing the last swat and then on advanced squad, I'm bringing in, you know, practical style shooting. And man, the light bulb is just coming on with dudes. It's awesome. Like, what's going on with what. We're training these guys and they come out to these classes. Like, man, I've never run a builder. I had like 40 something dudes in one of, one of the classes and I was running a bill drill and then I was running a, like a practical style shooting stage while the other stages were going on. And I think four dudes out of that whole class have ever run a bill drill, and then none of them have ever done any type of practical, you know, style shooting. They're like, so we can run with our gun out? I'm like, yeah, what happens right now if, you know, you get on shift and you get called to Walmart and the dudes running around the parking lot shooting at people and you get in a foot chase with him, what are you gonna do? Like, right, you're gonna run with your gun out, man, you're gonna shoot him and stuff. So I, I love seeing that. I love seeing the light bulb comes on and then I love the after talk after the class and the, and the, what did you, what'd you get out of this class? And then coming up to me later, hey, hey, tell me about this. Or, hey, what are you doing? Or who, who's someone I can listen to? And, and you know, I give them all the resources I can. I give them dry fire, you know, targets. And I'm like, hey, man, now the journey's yours. You'll make something out of it. If you go two months without shooting, you're back to ground zero.

[Chansey]

Yeah, you got to make your own path.

[Brian]

Yeah, I don't want to hear about.

[Brandon]

It, you know, like, so it's all on you. And, you know, I'm very passionate about that now, especially new guys on the team. I'm like, hey, we're going to give you a fucking solid foundation, you know, one of one. One of our new guys. He was on my team and like his first year and a half, and he had like seven Top instructors. I'm like, hey man, you're going to this class, you're going this class, you're going to this class. Class.

[Chansey]

Good information.

[Brandon]

Yeah. I'm like, hey man, here's your foundation. You're going to take something from him. Him and him and these two guys might say the same thing, but say it differently. Figure out which way resonates with you, you know, which style of that and stuff. So man, y'all got anything else, man?

[Chansey]

No. We appreciate you having us out, man.

[Brian]

It's, that's a good time, man.

[Chansey]

It's been great.

[Brandon]

I always enjoy chatting with y'all and, and shooting the. And, and you know, just enjoy just the camaraderie of men when it comes to passionate about this profession that we're in.

[Graham]

We don't have you on, just have you on. So you know, you guys now we appreciate legit to us. So we appreciate you being here, being at the conference and putting that information out. You guys are doing a good job.

[Brandon]

So yeah, you are teaching this conference. The red.performancerds.

[Graham]

Let me, let me give a little more, a little more pat in the back before you ask this last question of these guys. So the agency that I came from, I worked with Brian at, right. They went and started implementing their red dot program, right? And so they did it and it was an eight hour block, you know. And I would go out there and you could see that it was so much information. The guys were like, you know, they were doing well and they were doing the drills, but they needed more, right? They needed more.

[Chansey]

Why?

[Graham]

This is why we do this. This is why you do this. And more range time as well, right? To push themselves, right. Not just to qualify. So I think Derek went to Yalls class and Paul was out there too. They both came back and were like, hey, we have to make this a two day class, right? So this is why. And so that's what they ended up doing. Good. It worked out good. So you know, props to you guys. And again, you know, two really good instructors too. You know that we learn our Paul's, you know, we learn from. So yeah, he come back and like, no, they're doing good things out there. We need to, we need to improve our product or enhance our product.

[Brian]

I should say give them more, give a little more.

[Chansey]

We just, we don't, we dove headlong into it. You know, we made a pact between ourselves because we're like minded, we're critical of one another. Yeah, we support, support one another. But we're not fixing on the back over some bullshit and we decide, you know what if we're going to do it, we're going all in. So we cannonball into the middle of it. We attacked the administration side of it with big city policing.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

And we got their support and they're behind us to go forward and make cops better, man.

[Brandon]

That's what we want and that's good. And like that big text thread that we're on, there's several guys on there that work for big departments that they're the range guys. And I'm like, man, I love like Phoenix Chris out there in Phoenix. I'm like, dude, they're proactive style of the media of getting in front of a shooting. I think they are the gold standard and what should be doing.

[Chansey]

We were just out in Nashville what two days ago?

[Brian]

Two days ago.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

We were out there talking to Eric.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Chewed the fat with him for a couple hours. Just talking about how they do things in another big city.

[Brian]

I will say this about. Yeah. About Matt's text thread. You know, I think, I think Chance and I were talking about this when we were. Had a long drive over the last couple days and I think it's accomplished everything that Matt hoped it would by joining like minded dudes together and getting them just bounce ideas and challenging each other. And you know, when we went out to Nashville and we literally just sat there and picked each other's brains, man.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Like how can we make things better? And we brought stuff. I mean I know I've learned something from him, you know, on some stuff that I'm going to incorporate now in training. And then, and, and he said the man, that's a really good idea. I'm going to try to do what you guys are doing, you know, and that's exactly what, that's what you want. That's what you want. You know, I mean and, and you know how many rounds we fired? Zero.

[Brandon]

Zero.

[Brian]

We fired zero rounds. I mean they had recruits out the hole in the range. I mean they were busy but like we literally just, we, we tucked ourselves away and just dude. Started picking each other's brains, man. And learning from each other.

[Brandon]

And I know next year the class that you'll bring back to the conference will be the same title but there'll be some.

[Chansey]

It'll be different.

[Brian]

This year is significantly different than last year.

[Brandon]

There'll be some nuances, some things of just your own journey of teaching and shooting.

[Brian]

Right.

[Chansey]

It's growing, it's progressing. Let's go forward, let's get better. Let's get it.

[Brandon]

That's good. So this year's question that we ask all the guests is going to be, how do you leave your team better than what you started? So I guess for y'all, it'd be right now the range. So you came onto the range. How do. How do you leave that for the next generation, for it to be better? What are y'all doing?

[Brian]

I think for me, it's just encouraging progression and movement, just pushing forward and always self evaluating. Are we doing enough and is there something better out there that we can provide? And if so, let's be the best at providing that and provide it for our people and not get stagnant and not. Not do things the way they've always been done, because that is detrimental to advancement. I mean, we've always done it this way, by God. So we're going to continue to do it this way.

[Brandon]

Well, that.

[Brian]

I think that is the. That is the cancer of training.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And just trying to, you know, encourage the young new guys wanting to be a part of this that are coming up and in and, and encourage them to push the envelope and go seek, you know, outside training and. And learn different things and different ways of doing things and, and how to explain things and just progress. Progression, man. It's just progression. Push the envelope.

[Brandon]

Yeah, I like that.

[Graham]

What do you think, Chance? You got anything to add to that, man?

[Chansey]

Mine is from leading from the front. If you're going to be the mouthpiece for this stuff, you got to be the one out there.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

You know it. If you're in the back end of it, you're trying to push a rope, tie knot in it.

[Brian]

Unless pulling the chance he isn't.

[Chansey]

Right.

[Graham]

There you go.

[Brandon]

You're trying to push a rope. That could be the top.

[Graham]

You mentioned that about running your demos too, like, you know, explaining the drill. Right. Demonstration. Let's run it. The application of it.

[Brian]

Right.

[Graham]

Your students want to see that too.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Graham]

You've been there, right?

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Graham]

When you're like, okay, that sounds good, like, go up there and do it and then I'm going to do it too. But, you know, like Benny Cooley, Rob Leith and those guys are. They're doing that stuff.

[Chansey]

Yeah, you gotta like that. You got to get out front.

[Brandon]

I think one of the biggest by example, one of the biggest demos I ever saw, that was the most, like, impact. I'm like, wow. The light bulb filing came on is when we had Matt doing a private for our team and he was talking about, here's what predictable and here's what reactive. Reactive shooting looks like. And here's a timer. Boom. Reactive gave you the time. Here is predictive shooting.

[Chansey]

Boom.

[Brandon]

And you could tell one was faster, but then when you looked at the time, it was like 17 to 20 splits. He's like, this is real life engagement. Because this is what it. This is. If I'm going to get into shooting, this is the engagement speed I'm going to use. And I'm like, like, holy. Like the light bulb came on to actually see it and go, okay. So now when I do things, I keep. That's always in the forefront of my mind of what. What this looks like, you know, and stuff. And, and now I, I, I can break it down for myself and understand what that is. And I think that was huge. It was huge for a whole team.

[Chansey]

And that's. And that's getting that. It's getting that information put out there to people to understand what it is to get to that failure point.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

Because whenever you start going predictive, people are like, well, wait a minute. They feel like they can't, like they don't have the. They don't have permission because they've never been given permission. Yeah, okay. And what is failure? Yeah, okay. That's. There's a, There's a different description or definition of that for different people. Well, guess what? Let's hold the paper right here. Okay. And whenever you screw it up, understand how and why it happened. And now that's where we need to tie our conscious thought. And whenever we do that, we grow with shooters.

[Brandon]

No, it's great, Great stuff, man. Well, I guess we'll end this episode with that last word from Chansey. Man. Y'all keep training hard and stay safe.

[Graham]

Yes, sir.

[Chansey]

Thanks, guys.

[Brian]

Thank you all.

[Brandon]

Thank you.