TTPOA "Train-Up's" - Ben Stoeger discuses Indexing the Handgun

Summary

The TTPOA Podcast: Detailed Summary of "Train-Up's" Episode Featuring Ben Stoeger on Indexing the Handgun

Release Date: November 6, 2024
Hosts: Derek and Brandon
Guest: Ben Stoeger
Title: TTPOA "Train-Up's" - Ben Stoeger Discusses Indexing the Handgun

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The TTPOA Podcast, hosts Derek and Brandon, both active duty police officers and SWAT team leaders in Texas, delve deep into the foundational aspects of handgun shooting. The episode features insights from renowned competitive shooter and firearms instructor, Ben Stoeger, focusing on the concept of indexing the handgun—a critical skill for first responders aiming to enhance their shooting efficiency and accuracy.

Understanding Indexing

The discussion begins with Brandon introducing the concept of indexing:

Brandon (00:54): "Yeah. I think the best way to explain it is like go on Instagram and watch high level competitive pistol shooters shoot."

Derek prompts for a clearer definition:

Derek (00:33): "Call it the Index Secret Sauce."

Brandon elaborates:

Brandon (01:02): "And if you haven't done that or haven't shot a lot, you look at that and you'll watch guys shooting at targets and probably the first time you see that, you'd be like, it does not look like they're aiming. Right."

Indexing is described as a developed skill that allows shooters to bring their handgun to the target quickly and consistently. Unlike traditional aiming methods that might seem counterintuitive to new shooters, indexing becomes a natural and seamless process through extensive training.

Brandon (02:11): "That is, that is a developed index is what I call that."

Types of Shooting Speeds

The hosts and Ben categorize shooting speeds into three primary types:

1. Predictive Shooting:

   • Based on training and experience.
   • Shooters anticipate target movement and pull the trigger as sights align.

   Brandon (03:20): "I can feel that my grip is on. Goes back to your index is on. Right. And I just know the gun's going to return. So I can shoot at a predictive pace."

2. Reactive Shooting:

   • Slows down based on target complexity or accountability.
   • Involves responding to dynamic target changes.

   Brandon (04:19): "As things slow down, like as the, or let's say there's high accountability shooting or things get more difficult now, it becomes reactive or I slow down and I react to the site, to the sites every time."

3. Corrective Shooting:

   • Common among most shooters.
   • Involves aligning sights during the shooting process, leading to slower and less efficient shooting.

   Brandon (04:53): "This is corrective shooting while you're doing it. Yes. This is how most people experience shooting."

The emphasis is on moving away from corrective shooting towards predictive shooting by mastering indexing.

Indexing vs. Corrective Shooting

Derek reflects on personal experiences:

Derek (02:46): "Yeah, I wish I'd have known that when I first started shooting of being target focused. Yes, I wish I'd known that."

Brandon contrasts the two methods:

Brandon (05:34): "Right. Index is the reason that you're not doing corrective shooting for that. You're not like pointing the gun at something and then how to adjust and stuff around with the side alignment and then pulling the trigger. No. The gun just shows up with the sights more or less in alignment. You quickly confirm. That's why we use the word confirmation."

This distinction highlights the efficiency and reliability that indexing brings to handgun shooting, especially under high-pressure scenarios.

Role of Optics and Red Dots

The conversation shifts to the impact of red dot sights versus traditional iron sights:

Brandon (02:58): "Right. Was what we were doing with pistols. And in that time, I think without the optic housing on top of the gun, like a lot of guys would just shoot looking over the top of the gun and never really develop, like never be that developed with an index..."

Derek shares his experimentation with red dots:

Derek (06:01): "Yeah, I think too, like, I've played around with like turning my red dot off, not using irons, and just kind of using the window or the base plate or something."

Brandon underscores the importance of a well-developed index when using red dots:

Brandon (07:00): "It's like pointing your finger it's that natural and that smooth and effortless. That's an index that's well developed."

They discuss how red dots can both aid and challenge the development of indexing, emphasizing the necessity of training to ensure the red dot aligns consistently with the shooter's intent.

Training Techniques for Indexing

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to practical training methods to develop and refine indexing:

1. Occluding the Red Dot:

   • Brandon shares a technique where he occludes the red dot to prevent shooters from fixating on it, encouraging them to develop a natural index.

   Brandon (10:32): "So I occluded his dot to make sure that there'd be an even more negative consequence for staring at it because you... which would mean he couldn't see the target."

   Brandon (11:08): "Just occlude your gun."

2. Using Tape and Paster Aids:

   • Applying tape to the optic or using predefined targets (pasters) helps shooters focus on the target rather than the sights.

   Derek (12:03): "I did it for a long time. I just took my tape off because it got bad and haven't put back on."

   Brandon (12:50): "Giving yourself a defined target area is going to help you understand indexing."

3. Mental Projection:

   • Shooters are encouraged to project the desired sight alignment onto blank targets, fostering a more intuitive aim.

   Brandon (14:02): "So in my mind, I'm projecting that black spot onto the target."

These methods are designed to internalize the indexing process, making it an automatic response rather than a conscious adjustment.

Practical Examples and Experiences

Brandon shares real-world applications and experiences to illustrate the effectiveness of indexing:

Brandon (08:29): "Like actually training with a pistol shooting, it doesn't happen a lot now from the, you know, still, I'm a competitive shooter at heart..."

He recounts an incident where occluding the red dot significantly improved a shooter's performance by forcing reliance on indexing over sight fixation.

Brandon (10:53): "...he just needs to get over this hump and just look at, like, trust and believe. Like, once he indexes on the target he draws on, he will be okay if he just trusts and believes that if, if he looks around where he wants the gun to go, it will go there without him losing the sight awareness."

Derek adds personal insights:

Derek (11:48): "This, this optic on this. Oh yeah, this has been occluded for two years."

This segment highlights the long-term benefits and consistency that proper indexing training can provide.

Conclusion and Takeaways

As the episode wraps up, Brandon and Derek reinforce the importance of gradual and consistent training:

Brandon (14:43): "I don't think so."

Derek (14:44): "All right, cool. All right, boys and girls, go train. And man, what I would suggest with this is don't. If you're new to all this or you're still experimenting with this, don't just try it all in one day. Like, work on some stuff. It's a journey going your own shooting journey."

Key takeaways include:

• Indexing is a foundational skill that transforms shooting efficiency and accuracy.
• Transitioning from corrective to predictive shooting requires dedicated training and the right techniques.
• Utilizing tools like red dots, tape occlusion, and predefined target aids can facilitate the development of a natural index.
• Consistent, incremental training is essential for mastering indexing without feeling overwhelmed.

Final Thoughts

This episode of The TTPOA Podcast offers invaluable insights into the mechanics of handgun shooting, emphasizing the critical role of indexing. Through expert discussion and practical advice, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of how to develop and refine this essential skill, ultimately enhancing their performance on the field.

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Train hard, stay proficient, and continue honing your skills with each session.

Transcript

[Derek]

Welcome to the TTPOA podcast, a podcast for SWAT officers, military and all first responders. We'll be talking training, tactics and leadership with the best subject matter experts around. Here are your hosts, Derek and Brandon. Well, hello. We're back with another episode of. I don't know what we're going to call this episode, but we're back, back with Ben Steger.

[Brandon]

Call it the Index Secret Sauce.

[Derek]

Oh, the Index Secret sauce. Okay, I like that.

[Brandon]

It's kind of the secret sauce.

[Derek]

Secret sauce. All right, so we're back for our second part of training and just kind of getting to the, the fundamentals, the foundation of, of shooting the handgun. So, Ben, what we got next is indexing the gun. So explain. What is that, man? Indexing?

[Brandon]

Yeah. I think the best way to explain it is like go on Instagram and watch high level competitive pistol shooters shoot.

[Derek]

Okay.

[Brandon]

And if you haven't done that or haven't shot a lot, you look at that and you'll watch guys shooting at targets and probably the first time you see that, you'd be like, it does not look like they're aiming. Right.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Is that fair to say?

[Derek]

Yeah, no, I would say that it's.

[Brandon]

Like this doesn't fit in my head with any concept of aiming that I've saved site. It's not possible.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

That those guys are aiming for that. Right. And there's, there's a few concepts in play and I think we're going to talk about aiming schemes or confirmation separately. But one of the concepts in play, like maybe the heart of it is index. That's how, that's how guys can shoot so, so quickly. And what that is, it's, it's a, it's a skill that you develop from training. Whereas you grip the pistol that you have consistently and you mount it, like bring it up to your eye target line, you're going to grip it the same way and it's going to come up to the same position and it's going to be pointed more or less where you look. Right. That is, that is a developed index is what I call that.

[Derek]

Okay.

[Brandon]

Now this has been a thing in competitive shooting forever. I, as far as long as I've been shooting in way longer. It's been a thing for a long, long time where it's like, yep, look at a spot gun goes to the spot that I look at. That's my, my developed index. Again, this is, this is not a thing that you specifically. Well, there's some exercises you can do to help it along, but this is Just going to be a byproduct of training. It's more like a phenomenon that's going to happen. Right. Just with training you will develop that index, but that's the thing that's going to allow you to shoot really fast.

[Derek]

Yeah, I wish I'd have known that when I first started shooting of being target focused. Yes, I wish I'd known that.

[Brandon]

Yes. Now one thing that, the thing that I said it changed is like it used to be predominantly iron, like iron sights.

[Derek]

Right.

[Brandon]

Was what we were doing with pistols. And in that time, I think without the optic housing on top of the gun, like a lot of guys would just shoot looking over the top of the gun and never really develop, like never be that developed with an index so that if the, the distance to the targets extended. I mean I, I've seen this a lot at like practical shooting matches where you see guys that are, they look pretty good at 5, 7 yards, maybe even 10 yards, but as the distance extends, you could see they slow their shooting way, way down. Now we, I don't know how much you guys talk about this on the TTPO TTPOA podcast, but there's a few types of shooting or a few speeds. Yeah, Right. Predictive shooting, which is just based on training and experience. I know what's happening and I can, it's. It's almost like I'm pulling the trigger just as the sites are arriving. Like, yep, I know they're going where I want and it's like I'm shooting as the sites are arriving or I'm pulling the trigger really aggressively on targets that, you know, let's say 10, 15 yard targets with a handgun. And I'm pulling the trigger as fast as I can. But based on training and experience, it'll be like, yes, the gun is going to return in this time because I can feel that my grip is on. Goes back to your index is on. Right. And I just know the gun's going to return. So I can shoot at a predictive pace.

[Derek]

Right.

[Brandon]

As things slow down, like as the, or let's say there's high accountability shooting or things get more difficult now, it becomes reactive or I slow down and I react to the site, to the sites every time. Like I see the flash of red, pull the trigger, flash of red, pull the trigger. Or the dot stops, stabilizes, looks like a dot, then I pull the trigger. Depending on what the target is, I am shooting, reacting to that. Okay, okay. But there's another speed of shooting that can happen. Right. And this is where most people Live. This is where most shooting lives. That's not like performance shooting, and that's corrective shooting.

[Derek]

Okay.

[Brandon]

So let's say I look at a target I want to shoot. The pistol goes over like my. The pistols in my hands goes over to that target. Okay. And now it's misaligned. You know, the sights are sort of where I'm looking. And now I correct that sight picture to the one I want and then pull the trigger. Right. That is corrective shooting while you're doing it. Yes. This is how most people experience shooting. Right. Isn't that true?

[Derek]

Yeah, no, I would. Yeah.

[Brandon]

Yeah. Most people do. Are shooting at a corrective pace. Right. And so, like, when I say this to you, you know exactly what I'm talking about. But you do not shoot this way.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Right. Not a handgun inside of 20 yards. You're not shooting it this way.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

You're not doing corrective shooting.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Right. Index is the. The reason that you're not doing corrective shooting for that. You're not like pointing the gun at something and then how to adjust and stuff around with the side alignment and then pulling the trigger? No. The gun just shows up with the sights more or less in alignment. You quickly confirm. That's why we use the word confirmation. Right? Yeah, confirm. Yep. That is what it is indeed. Pointed where I think it is. And now pull the trigger for that.

[Derek]

Yeah, I think too, like, I've played around with like turning my red dot off, not using irons, and just kind of using the window or the base plate or something. And just kind of that index comes. Comes into play that way because there's really no aiming scheme besides just your natural. What you're doing of looking at something. It's like pointing, you know, if you point your finger or something. Is that. Would you say that's kind of the. On the same track or not? Or mine is.

[Brandon]

Well, it. It's kind of the same thing where it's like if I look at a spot and I point my finger at it. Yeah. My finger will point at the spot that I'm pointing at. Right, Right. But that's based on, you know, a whole lifetime of, you know, body mechanics, all the physical stuff, the way your body and your brain develops or what, I don't know. That's how all that stuff works.

[Derek]

Y. Whatever science says.

[Brandon]

But that's. Just think of it this way. It's like where you train to the point where your pistol is like pointing your finger. Pointing your pistol at something. It's like point your finger it's that natural and that smooth and effortless. That's an index that's well developed.

[Derek]

So you said earlier, it's kind of a natural phenomenon. So.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Derek]

Is dry firing just looking at a target, does that help get to that natural phenomenon or like that's the only way.

[Brandon]

That's the, just, that's the. Well, maybe not the only way you could shoot live ammo.

[Derek]

Right.

[Brandon]

You all have a lot of money or whatever. Yeah, I don't know how that's going, but yeah. Right.

[Derek]

So it's cheaper to dry fire.

[Brandon]

Yeah. So dry. And this is where I was going with the, the, the move to dots. Right. With iron sights, this is in play. All these concepts work.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Right. Look at a spot. My pistol shows up on that spot and my iron sights will show up more or less in alignment on that spot.

[Derek]

Okay.

[Brandon]

But there's not really an external check on that. Like if you're watching me shoot irons, you're not going to easily be able to tell if I'm doing that or not. However, in the day of the red dots, you can now tell very easily.

[Derek]

It don't lie.

[Brandon]

Yes, it does not lie. When you see the guy like transition his pistol over to a target and then he's like around with his wrist angle. Yeah, yeah. It's just, it's very obvious what's going on there. It's like, okay, this is, this is an indexing thing. This is a, you know, it's foundational. It's, it's, you need regular training. You know, the gun in your hand a lot till the point where it's like pointing your pistol at something's like pointing your finger at it.

[Derek]

So how often like for you personally do you lose the dot? Does it happen very often for you now?

[Brandon]

It kind. Not really, no. Like actually training with a pistol shooting, it doesn't happen a lot now from the, you know, still, I'm a competitive shooter at heart, so I do have these big windowed competition dots on most of my guns, but it, it doesn't, it's a, it's a, gives you a little margin, but not a lot. Yeah, no, no, I don't, I don't lose the dot a whole lot. It's, I'm not, it's, it's usually very obvious for that for me, when something's wrong. There's another thing that you get with training is you'll, you'll understand the outline of your optic housing. So like for example, when I'm shooting an sro, if, if the the circle circular optic housing starts to appear oblong. I'm not going to have awareness of the red dot. Right. And then I just, like, have to. Have to make sure I'm behind the site, like, struggling to acquire the dot or like losing the dot is a thing that's typically not going to happen unless I'm doing something wonky like shooting from awkward position, something like that.

[Derek]

So today, the. While we were training, you went over there, grabbed a piece of tape, put it on the guy's red dot to include his optic. Was that part of because his index was messed up, or was that because he was chasing the dot, or is that kind of a combination of. Kind of both?

[Brandon]

That guy was unwittingly was staring at the red dot. Just didn't know it. And because at that time we were doing, like, multiple target engagements, he would look at the spot on the target and draw the pistol on the first target, and the sight would come up to alignment and he'd shoot accurately. But then he was, I think, scared of losing the dot, like you're saying. And then, then when people are living in fear of losing the dot, they end up staring at it.

[Derek]

Okay. Yeah.

[Brandon]

With all the attendant negative consequences that come from that. So I occluded his dot to make sure that there'd be an even more negative consequence for staring at it because you. Which would mean he couldn't see the target.

[Derek]

Okay.

[Brandon]

Because that guy's just what I. In my judgment, watching him shoot is like he just needs to get over this hump and just look at, like, trust and believe. Like, once he indexes on the target he draws on, he will be okay if he just trusts and believes that if, if he looks around where he wants the gun to go, it will go there without him losing the sight awareness.

[Derek]

So would you recommend a new shooter to the red dot, occlude the dot.

[Brandon]

Or should absolutely try it and understand.

[Derek]

It and understand what that means and how it does it.

[Brandon]

And, like, don't fucking send me an email asking me to explain it to you because it'll be quicker for you to try it.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

So that's one of my favorite things about the Internet. People want to endlessly have an intellectual discussion about occlusion. Just occlude your gun.

[Derek]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Brandon]

There's not a reason that you need to, like, you will know more just trying it for 20 seconds than you will talking about it for 20 minutes.

[Derek]

Well, the guy you did today, I mean, he just got along shooting about his day and Then all of a sudden has tape on it. He ain't taking it off. And he was shooting fine. I mean, he was, he wasn't dangerous or anything like that. He kept shooting and everything worked out well. And you know, I was talking with him later and he was, he, he's like, yeah, that makes sense. I understand that. Now.

[Brandon]

This, this optic on this. Oh yeah, this has been occluded for two years.

[Derek]

Tactical black too. I like that.

[Brandon]

I like, I do prefer black tape for occlusion. But yeah, this optics been occluded for two years. Yeah, I've shot. I, I shot included exclusively, I think for two years.

[Derek]

Yeah, I did it for a long time. I just took my tape off because it got bad and haven't put back on. I liked it because, like on days like today, we were shooting, it just helps the brightness of the dot. It just in the sun and the way there's sun. I was like that. For me, it just helps just when you're outside during the day. So going back to indexing, if you're trying to build that skill up, does it help to put the little pasters or something where you're actually having to like, something to cheat, to look at with your eyes to like, to make your, like, cheating? No. Is it's not cheating like a. Does it help, like speed that process up?

[Brandon]

So you mean putting pasters like, you mean occluding the site?

[Derek]

No. Putting pastries like on your target to help?

[Brandon]

Yes. Giving yourself a defined target area is going to help you understand indexing. And like, I, I was using black aiming references today. So like a black paster in the center of a USPSA target. That is very good because the black tape is like, no, you stare at that and then your sight will come into your awareness. So you will be aware of your red dot coming towards that black thing. But it's important not to shift your attention on the red dot itself. Instead, keep your attention fixed on the spot that you want the red dot to go. And having a physical spot there makes that a lot easier to understand.

[Derek]

I like the way you explain it like, hey, I'm aware of the dot, you know, but I'm not staring at like you, you can, you can look at anything and stare at it but still have focus, or not focus, but awareness of what's going on around you and be able to tell that. So I like that analogy as far as. So now we developed, we're getting better with this skill and we want to take the kind of training wheels off of a pasty on a target. What are you staring at? If you have a blank USPSA target, there's no pasties on there or anything like that. What are you kind of looking at?

[Brandon]

So in my mind, I'm projecting that black spot onto the target.

[Derek]

Okay.

[Brandon]

Like, I project it out there.

[Derek]

Okay.

[Brandon]

Like, I imagine it's there. And then I take. I shoot at it. Like, I try to shoot, like, fearlessly at that spot.

[Derek]

Okay. And then once they kind of starts taping up, do you find one of the little brown pasties?

[Brandon]

Yes. If there's a defined area, targets, something for me to look at, I'll look at it.

[Derek]

Okay.

[Brandon]

For sure. And then on photorealistic targets, like the V of a V neck. Yeah, Stuff like that. Stuff like this, there's always going to be something like a button, something you can pick up. Like there. Put in bullets there.

[Derek]

Put that. Yeah. No, good stuff. Anything else we need to add on indexing gun?

[Brandon]

I don't think so.

[Derek]

All right, cool. All right, boys and girls, go train. And man, what I would suggest with this is don't. If you're new to all this or you're still experimenting with this, don't just try it all in one day. Like, work on some stuff. It's a journey going your own shooting journey. And don't try to put everything in at one time, but let's work on some stuff and then keep adding to it. That's kind of why we're breaking these segments down and stuff. So keep training, boys and girls.