← The TTPOA Podcast
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Foreign.
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B
For SWAT officers, military, and all first responders. We'll be talking training tactics and leadership with the best subject matter experts around.
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A
Here are your hosts.
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B
Not Derek and Brandon, but just Brandon. Well, howdy, folks. Coming back live. Actually, it's live right now. I'm not live while you're listening because it's recorded from the backyard. Honky tonk. I have my buddy over here to my left, Ben Steger. How you doing, Ben?
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A
Oh, I was just. I was just letting Instagram know that we were having this moment together.
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B
All right. It's a special.
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A
I got a blurry picture of your face and a clear picture of my face. It's.
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B
Oh, thanks.
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A
Perfect.
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B
Well, good. We're good. We've already had comments of pictures that we've taken the day already with my unicorn, whatever you call that thing that you carry, emotional support hat my emotional support at. So I really appreciate that.
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A
So it's known as the stabby dildo ran on your head.
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B
Love it. I love that. That's good. So. All right, we're back for another training ttpoa Train ups. I think that's what I'm going to name this series. So we should have had that name last night. But, hey, we're working on the fly here. That's what we do here at ttoa, especially if it's me involved. All right, so we're going to get into debunking some TR issues that you see. I know you have some hot sports opinions on that, so.
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A
I do.
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B
Yeah. So let's get started on, like, the doubles.
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A
Double. I got a better one to start on.
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B
Oh, we got a better one to start. Okay. See, I told you you had some hot sports opinions.
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A
I do. I could tell you a couple things that I see when it comes to training, and it's just stuff that I really don't like. And I'll start with this one.
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B
Okay.
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A
Somebody say, hey, man, what's your routine at the range? That's. And then that they'll like that person asking that. Usually they have a very specific. They're like, hey. Well, first I pull up my gun, I confirm zero. Then I set up this drill and I kind of warm up on that one. Then I flip to this drill and I shoot that one a little bit. And it's like, you can see, like, they have a routine that. Where they're doing kind of the same drill, same stuff, same sequence, and it doesn't really change. That stuff bugs me. Yeah, because somebody's. I mean, to me, like, I have themes in My training, you know, I'll do probably a certain round count, a certain amount of time at the range, you know, it's going to fall within some, there'll be some variance. I'm going to go to the range for a certain amount of time. You know, I'm going to shoot, you know, the ammo I want to shoot or whatever. But as inside of that, as far as the, the exercises I'm doing, it's changing a lot. There's not really much routine to it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Which, you know, I would say every.
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B
Time I've gone to your class, it's always someday. I mean, the day out there when I showed up and there was, I don't know, three different things that we did that I've never seen you do before. When I've been to your class, which I'm like, oh, cool, that was really good. I'm like, I want to steal that and use that for when we train or when I train myself and stuff. So, yeah, I do appreciate that because I think that's part of that shooting journey that you're on. You're still on your own shooting journey.
- [03:24]
A
Yeah, I mean, I'm still training a lot, but. But I think that's what makes people stagnant now. People that want to train and want to put in effort, that's a good thing. Right. But then a lot of times they get stuck kind of in a rut where, I mean, like, let's say I go and I have some routine that I do. Let's say I'm going to shoot groups, confirm my zero. Then I like to start at, you know, I'll shoot my like 15 yard bill drills. We'll do that. I like to do that a little bit. And then I do some target transitions and then I leave or whatever. Following that sequence, following that routine, just in a, you know, like, let's say you do that 5, 6 range trips in a row, you're gonna see some improvement and then you plateau a little bit and then typically the improvement slows down a lot and you end up just being in a rut. Whereas from my, you know, practical shooting kind of background to me, I need to be ready to shoot any distance from contact distance to whatever, 50 yards. With a handgun, I might have to not move at all. I might have to run a bunch, you know, might be shooting on the move, might be shooting static. It could be anything, I don't really know. So I want to continue to train for all different types of, you know, engagement, distance and number of targets. You know all this different stuff. And I think that's going to help you so much more where you apply the principles that you, you know, that you understand to whatever the scenario is.
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B
Yeah, I think for, for me, when what I've experienced being around you, when you're instructing is everything that you do is all based on the fundamentals. Every single thing that you talk about, there's no like, okay, I'm going to do this Ben Steger drill and this is the time and this is what you have to do. It's always everything you set up is all about just the foundation of shooting a handgun. And I think that's what's refreshing, that's what's really good. And I think that's why so many people that come to the classes that I've experienced tell me, man, that's a different class. I had one of the guys that's on our team, he was in the class today and he's like, this has been the best pistol class I've ever gone to. I said, well, why? Because, well, first of all, I had, I was told I could fail. And I, I finally realized what putting, marrying the speed and the accuracy, what that really was and how I was overconfirm, over confirming my whole career here at shooting. And now I understand what that is because of the way Ben was teaching me. I think that's a huge thing. I mean, I'm looking forward to that guy now because the light bulb came on even more for him. So that's why I enjoy having you always here. And I think, I think that's when, when you go to a class and I'm not kissing your ass or anything, it's just, that's what I personally have gotten is just, hey, it's all about the fundamentals. Everything else is just whatever you want to make up, whatever drill and everything. But it all comes down to the fundamentals. And that's what this whole series is about is, hey, let's get out what the funnels, fundamentals truly are and then work on those and all the other shit will just happen, right?
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A
I mean, I remember when I was a lot younger, I had an interaction with some red shirts. It was like a range day for police. And I showed up for the, for the training and they're like, we're doing target transition. So I'm like, cool. So they have a couple targets out, like, shoot this one, then shoot that one. Like, cool. So I should perform it to my ability, which was not to be an asshole, but it was very high at that time. So. All right, like, I. One of the. One of the best guys in the country at doing this, like, shoot the thing. Good. It was, it was nice. Shoot it again. Good. You mean do a few reps. And then now I've done three, four reps of the thing at my comfortable, like, match, like, game day pace.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Which was nice. And now I'm like, cool, let's really start training. And I start pushing it. Right. And then the rounds aren't going all where they're supposed to go, but I'm like, yeah, we're training, baby. We're doing training.
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B
Yep.
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A
Like, this is how it is.
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B
Yeah.
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A
My God, did the red shirts hate that? They hated it. They're like, what are you doing? Like this. I'm like, what? Like what? Yeah.
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B
What happened?
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A
What are you talking about? Like, I mean, this. We're training. Right. Like, I clearly demonstrated to myself and to those while, like, I can do the thing.
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B
Yeah.
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A
At whatever level. Right.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And now I'm trying to learn to do the thing better, which means I'm going to fail at the thing. Yeah. You know what I mean?
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B
It's okay.
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A
Yes. It's okay to like, not as. Not, not only is it, is it okay, it's a necessary part of the process.
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B
Well, I think that's. That is. I mean, we kind of just segue into debunking some training deals and that is. It's okay to fail. It's okay to not put everything in the little 5 inch circle or the 6 inch circle, whatever target you're looking at.
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A
I'm telling you, that stuff is holding people back. Yeah, yeah. Your guy. I know the guy you're talking about. So the guy on your team, he. I like me. She's shooting. He's trying to get better. But yeah. I can tell you his. He's. I've been over confirming everything my whole career. And it's like, well, yeah. If you're in the mentality where anytime you fire around it doesn't go where you want it to go. That that's some kind of, like, that's a big deal. And they stuff like, oh, there's a lawyer attached to every bullet, bro. And this and this. It's like, I understand what they're saying, but it's like, you're not developing your skills.
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B
No.
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A
By constantly living in, like, here's a good example. One thing I saw, I thought it was dumb. As trainer guy sets it up. So Sets up the exercise. All right. Cool guy's gonna shoot this stuff. And if you hit a no shoot, you gotta walk up there and, like, write your name, a friend or family member's name on it. Like, oh, that's the person that you didn't. And they're like, we're gonna have a big talk about, like, how you just did the bad thing. And it's kind of like, I get there's. Again, there's a time and a place to understand the consequences for, like, using these tools.
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B
Correct.
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A
For, you know, for going and like, deploying a firearm and using it, there's consequences. You got to be careful. But from training to use the thing more effectively, you're going to hit some no shoots. Yeah, it's going to happen.
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B
It is. And it's just. There's going to be bullets that don't even hit the paper. Sometimes you're like, yep. That's why there's backstops. That's why there's baffling. That's why the range is designed the way it is and all the safety features. And at the end of the day, I always go back to, you give someone a gun and you put them out in the street, and the whole city is the range. There's no. There's no backstop. I mean, like, everywhere you turn is. Is. Is reality is downrange, like, everywhere. Well, and you get in a foot chase and you have your gun out. I mean, it's everywhere. I mean, you just can't help it. That's just the reality of it. And I think that's where. I think we lost the perspective on that. When we come to training handguns and firearms and stuff in the le. I see a change, though, but there's still a lot to be done.
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A
Yeah, I mean, I can tell you, like, everything I've been studying kind of shooting and wanting to shoot for a long time. All the stuff I had I got from, you know, 20 years ago. All the stuff I read and watched and looked at, all the, like, the training material, like, foundationally, I'd say it was wrong. It was wrong. Just the way that guys conceptualize training and what they were trying to do, they're like, okay, we're gonna train this way. It's gonna be sort of very methodical training. It's not going to be inductive, sort of where the guy learns for himself. We're gonna. We're gonna kind of fit, you know, fit everybody into the mold. We want them to fit. They're gonna shoot. Like, we're gonna say, hey, don't fire rounds outside of the scoring zone. That we want this kind of ever all of that type of stuff, like bullseye style training as well. And then it would be Rolodex style training, where a lot of the academy stuff that I saw, it would be exposing you to a scenario that might happen and then you would kind of move on. So like, hey, you might could have to shoot with your left hand. So we'll spend 30 minutes where you draw the pistol out of your handed holster with your left hand and show you a couple techniques to do that. And then you shoot left handed, you know, whatever. Or here's three different methods for how to use a flashlight. And we'll do this, we'll do that.
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B
Yeah.
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A
It was exposing you to scenario. It wasn't principle based.
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B
No, no, no.
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A
It was Rolodex style training.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I think like for a lot of the red shirts from that era, I think now we have a lot of data.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And we have more information now. We look at that and say, hey, a lot of this stuff was wrong.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Like we have whatever the hit percentages are nationally for police, you know, officer involved shootings and all of this, we can look at all of this data now and be like, okay, what they're doing is not working.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Or at least could work a lot better.
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B
Yeah, for sure. I look at from my standpoint of when I went through the academy and you don't know what you don't know. And those for y'all who, who are listening, who don't know. Ben, he was actually a cop, went through police academy, all that kind of stuff too. But it was also starting his competition days. And so, you know, he had a different outlook on firearms training already coming into the academy and stuff. So it's not like Ben's never done the job or anything like that. So it. He understands what we are doing and how we do things and how we're trying to get away from that. It's funny, I had a, a text message from Chris Palmer today. He's like, hey man, I really enjoyed the podcast you all released with Chuck Pressberg and, and stuff. He goes, man, I think we're, I'm starting to see more changing in the le shooting world and stuff. I said, yeah, I said, I think for me, right, what I'm seeing In Texas, about a 10 increase in performance shooting the like really less pushing it. And I said, you know, that that's to me that's a big gain, like 10%, like if we can do 10 more next year. And I know in my region that's who I'm bringing in. I'm bringing guys that are always pushing that because I'm not about the whole slow and you know, because, yeah, I do hear what they say, hey, there's a bullet attached. But really, is there?
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A
Because like a lawyer attached to every bullet.
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B
Yeah. I mean, I see a lot of these police shootings, and I see 178 rounds, 58 rounds, 45 rounds shot, and four or five hit the person. Where are those other ones going? I mean, we all understand it, but that goes back to the training methodology and understanding, hey, here's how I shoot fast and training. Here's how I shoot in an engagement. And it's just balancing those out and understanding because, you know, no one ever trains driving techniques of. When you're in the police academy, we're gonna go 42 miles an hour. That's all we're gonna go, because we don't want to drive too fast. And, and you drive fast, you're. They, they push you. I know at our department, they pushing you to, hey, let's see what you got. But that's not necessarily in the police shooting world, which doesn't make sense to me. Or when we fight, I mean, they're like, hey, man, you're fighting for five minutes, no one's helping you. What do you got there? They don't go, well, let's, you know, let's slow fight for a little while.
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A
Five minutes is a long time to be fighting.
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B
Yeah, it is. It's. It's a long time. Yeah. I mean, so that's my whole point, and I think that's one of the training. Missed it. We kind of debunk double shooting doubles. I see different instructors shoot doubles. I've seen explain a little differently than. Than how you explain it. So what, what's, what's the disconnect here with the, the shooting devils? What do you, what do you. When you say that, what are you looking for? How would you explain that to somebody?
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A
Well, my explanation's changed over time and my kind of concept of it's changed over time. However I look at doing shooting aggressive pairs. So like, aim the gun into the spot, fire a pair as fast as you can, pull the trigger. Basically, like, let the guns, you know, settle down, fire another pair and so on. What you're doing. By that, I mean, it's not a performance exercise in that I'm. I'm necessarily trying to make everything go into a small pattern in the target. It's super cool if you can do that. But as a Drill to develop yourself. What you're doing is you're kind of like from the competition shooting side. What you'll notice is you look at guys go. They aim the gun at a target and they fire two rounds. Right? That's like 90% of what you're doing in a USPSA match is put the gun on in the center of the target and fire two rounds on it. Right. You just strip away the movement, transition, the gun handling, all that other stuff that, you know, from a training perspective, we can train separately.
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B
So we're just isolating something.
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A
Yes, we can train all of that without ammunition, I would even say.
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B
Right.
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A
We don't need ammunition to do that stuff. The thing that we need ammunition for really is the actual, like, cycling, like, understanding the recoil impulse of the gun, how the gun's gonna feel in your hands, what it looks like to fire rounds, like, as fast as you can pull the trigger. It's. You're trying to get that experience out of firing those rounds. All right? And then you can just see like, hey, what happens with my grip? How does, what's. How's it going to track it in recoil? That kind of stuff. And I'm shooting, I'm going to push myself so much that my foundational skills, grip and vision are gonna, are. They're gonna fail at some point. Right. And I'm looking to refine my foundational shooting skills for that.
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B
So would you like, if you're new at it, is that like 10 yard line, 7 yard line, 5, or would you, if you're new at doing that.
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A
The way I do it in class and you'll appreciate this. I. I think I talked about it a previous episode with one of the. We did last night ahead of new shooter. A young, young person, no experience shooting a gun. Yeah, first thing I did was get my, like, over this. I mean, this was just a few hours of training.
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B
Yeah.
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A
They were on to doubles basically immediately. As soon as I see that they can handle the gun safely and, you know, they shoot slow, fire a little bit. Like, do they go into a small place? Yep. Are they. They are validating, like. Yeah, I can shoot the gun slow and it puts the bullets basically where I want. Yeah, it's like, yeah, cool. Okay. Then we're right into doubles for that right away where it's pull the trigger twice about as fast as you can. It's like, make sure you're, you know, you're paying attention to what's happening. Your firing hand, you flexing your fingers, moving the gun, pushing it Sideways about your support hand. That's got to stay connected to the pistol. Right. What about your vision? Do you got to look at where you want the bullets to go? Not looking for the site or where the site is? You know, there's a lot of that stuff, like you're just experiencing shooting a gun for that, and that's what you're paying attention to now. I think a lot of the stuff I see online guys are really hyper focused on some sort of metrics around, around doubles for like, well, how fast the splits are they, like, what's the number? Like how small the groups have to be, what's the number? And to me, all of that stuff is going to change based on the shooter, for one thing, and based on the, the platform that they're shooting. Yeah, it's a lot different shooting a stock Glock.
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B
Yes.
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A
Well, I should do this. It's not, it's not a lot different in practice. Shooting a stock Glock versus a staccato. Right. I'm doing the same thing. It's just the numbers are going to be different.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Because like, we're over here. I'm overcoming, you know, X trigger weight over here. It's wide trigger weight and all that.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Right. So I would focus on the principles that are in play and that what you're trying to get out of it rather than what the numbers are for that.
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B
Yeah, I've noticed like 10 yards, I'm like, I don't say that I'm breaking. Like, that's not a hard thing now. Not a heavy lift like it once was when I first started. Now I'm like, okay, 15. Now I try to, I try to work doubles really, to see, okay, how can I keep it looking decent at 20 and kind of push myself? I think that's good. And then when I come up to a 7 yard or a 10 yard, I'm like, oh, man, this is, this is cake fill. Because your, your mind is perceiving it differently and stuff. So I do like that of like moving it back and changing it up and not always. Okay, it's got to be the 10 or whatever.
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A
No, I mean, I'll do a whole progression. Like. Yeah, I'll. I'll do it at 5 yards, you know, 10 yards, 15, 20, whatever. Like, it depends on, you know, again, depends on the system. Depends on what I'm doing. I shoot doubles at like 60 yards with a rifle.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Standing. Yeah.
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B
And that's, and that's because it makes a C quote CQB shot that much easier. And stuff. And I've heard you say it. I've heard other guys say it. Like, if they were. When they train, that's probably one of the biggest tools that they use for their training regimen is. Is doubles and stuff. Was that. Would you agree? Yeah.
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A
I mean, well, think about, like, again, the reality of training.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Which I think we're gonna talk about Dry fire in the next episode. But the reality of what you have for training as, like, let's say this is for police officers. You aren't going to the range every day unless you're assigned there.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And then hopefully, you're lucky you got an apartment that is nice with ammo and gives it to you.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Right. Which maybe you do, maybe you don't.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But that's not. Most people won't have that.
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B
No.
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A
The tool, like, you're going to have the days that you can go to the range and actually train, and then the other days, the training that's available to you is dry fire. And again, from an like, though I can assess a lot of what I'm doing. Dry fire, I don't need the feedback of shooting live ammo. Right. The thing that I can't train at home is the, like, the. That recoil management, vision grip that. All of that. That firing cycle that you do in doubles. I can't train that another way for that. Doing that drill dry. It's a lot different than doing it live.
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B
Yeah. No, for sure.
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A
Not the same thing.
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B
Yeah, for sure. So if you're a. An le person out there and you're like, okay, I want to get into more the practical side. I want to. I want to. What do y'all. I like what you're saying. So what would be, like, a suggestion for someone kind of starting off with this if they're going to the range, what would be some things that you would kind of say, hey, here's something to start off with. Here's three drills or whatever you want to call them, to really focus in on, to really hammer out some things.
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A
Okay. Well, the first thing you should do is, like, find the shooting nerd in your agency and try to make friends.
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B
There you go.
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A
Usually these guys. You know what I mean? There's a couple of them. They're, like, really into it. Like, go be friends with that guy, because they're gonna. They'll. They probably want to walk you through all this stuff. It's like the nerds about their hobby. Want to tell you about it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Whatever that is.
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B
I would agree.
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A
Right. So first, like, if There's. If you have a person like that that you can leverage, like, go find them and talk to them, because they probably will want to help you.
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B
Yeah.
- [22:26]
A
All right. Aside from that, like, an easy thing that you could do is go to any sort of practical kind of competition and you can see what's going on, and it'll make way more sense in person. If you've never seen it, I'd agree.
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B
I mean, my first.
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A
Right.
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B
Wow.
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A
Aside from that trying stuff at the range, it's like there are books of drills with times and scores. Like, I have one. Practical shooting training is a book out there. There's.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Like, there's actually. There's so much like, probably why you asked this question. So they may be a little difficult to figure out where to start.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Right. But good things to start with. Build drill. That's a good one, especially for law enforcement.
- [23:05]
B
Yep.
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A
Draw the pistol, grip it effectively, look at the spot on the target, get the site there, and you start running rounds into the spot you're looking at. That's a pretty good one.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Right. Doubles is another good one. Similar, but not the same. Again, it's going to help you with that. You know, just that key firing cycle stuff. Right. Another drill I like, set up. Instead of one target, set up three. Engage all three of them. Reload. Do it again. Like El President Day puts in a turn there. That's. Yeah, that's very, very good. Test of those kind of core skills. Drawing, shooting, reloading, you know, quick. Yeah, that. That'll expose you to that. Those kind of concepts.
- [23:47]
B
No, I like that. And I think too, for. For me, my suggestion would be is the guy. Lose your ego that you're comfortable in your little small pond at the range where you go and you're on the line and you have the pretty target and you're really accurate. So lose that ego and get out there and compete against other people. Push yourself. Because I think that's a big thing they're holding people back to as well, that I see that the ego is a big thing. They don't want to. They don't want. I know guys that won't go to classes because, man, I might get exposed or they really don't shoot too much because they're going to get exposed. And I think that's a. Get exposed on the range, not in real life. I mean, that's. That's not where I want to get exposed at, is on the streets when it really counts.
- [24:38]
A
Well, I mean, the big thing, especially if you're talking about going to matches. Understand this. No one gives a. About you.
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B
Yeah, they don't.
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A
Like, you're gonna be all, oh, like, dudes are gonna think this and this. No, they won't. They don't give a. Yeah, if you do something crazy or unsafe or stupid, people will remember that. No one will remember your score from your first match. No one will remember.
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B
And they're all nice folks out there.
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A
And they don't care.
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B
They. They're just good, good Americans out there. I. I like that. So, all right. Any other things that you can think about that?
- [25:09]
A
Honestly, I thought this was a bang up podcast. Maybe the best one we've ever done.
- [25:12]
B
All right, man, it's, you know, we, we had practice last night, so. And we've had, you know, good food in our bellies and, and stuff like that, so. All right, well, we're going to end this one and the next one you're going to hear is going to be dry fire. All right, y'all. Love train hard out there, boys and girls.
- [25:31]
A
Train medium.
- [25:33]
B
Train medium.