TTPOA "Train-Up's" - Ben Stoeger Discuses Trigger Control

Summary

The TTPOA Podcast: TTPOA "Train-Up's" - Ben Stoeger Discusses Trigger Control

Released on November 20, 2024

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Introduction

In the latest episode of The TTPOA Podcast, hosts Derek and Brandon delve deep into the intricacies of trigger control with renowned shooting expert Ben Stoeger. Aimed primarily at SWAT officers, military personnel, and first responders, this episode underscores the critical importance of mastering trigger control to enhance shooting accuracy and effectiveness in high-stress scenarios.

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Understanding Trigger Control

The episode kicks off with Brandon introducing the topic of trigger control, emphasizing its complexity within law enforcement training. Derek echoes this sentiment, simplifying trigger control as "pulling the trigger without moving the gun" (00:22). However, both hosts acknowledge that while the concept is straightforward, executing it flawlessly is challenging.

Notable Quote:

“Trigger control is as simple as said. Pulling the trigger without moving the gun.”
— Derek (01:34)

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Traditional Methods vs. Modern Approaches

Brandon critiques traditional trigger control methodologies such as "prep and press," "reset riding," and "click banging," arguing that these techniques complicate the fundamental concept of trigger control. He points out that many of these methods, often advocated by competitive shooters, are irrelevant to law enforcement scenarios where speed and aggression are paramount.

Derek concurs, highlighting the negative impact of overcomplicating trigger control with unnecessary steps. He emphasizes that the focus should remain on maintaining gun stability and pulling the trigger aggressively to prevent recoil from disrupting aim.

Notable Quote:

“It's not easy, but it's relatively easy to do it slow. The more slowly you're doing trigger control, the easier it's going to be.”
— Derek (02:43)

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Ben Stoeger’s Insights on Effective Trigger Control

Brandon introduces Ben Stoeger, who brings a fresh perspective to trigger control. Ben advocates for a more aggressive approach, especially in scenarios requiring rapid response. He emphasizes the importance of "rolling through the trigger" and maintaining gun stability, regardless of the target's distance.

Key Points:

• Aggressive Trigger Pulling: Ben suggests pulling the trigger aggressively to minimize gun movement, especially at closer ranges (02:42).
• Adaptability: Adjusting trigger pull speed based on distance—faster for closer targets and controlled for longer ranges (02:43).
• Simplification: Moving away from complex techniques to more straightforward, effective methods (07:10).

Notable Quote:

“I was pretty sure I knew the answer. Trigger control is... pulling the trigger without moving the gun. It's simple. It's not easy.”
— Derek (01:34)

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Effective Drills and Training Techniques

A significant portion of the discussion centers around practical drills that can enhance trigger control. Ben introduces a drill he finds invaluable for law enforcement training:

1. Dry Fire Drill: Starting with the finger outside the trigger guard to simulate real-life scenarios where quick access is necessary.
2. Stimulus Response: Using auditory cues (like a beep) to initiate the trigger pull, thereby training responsiveness under pressure (08:22).
3. Progressive Difficulty: Gradually moving the finger further away from the trigger guard to increase difficulty and improve muscle memory (10:21).

Brandon shares his experience with a similar drill, noting the immediate impact it had on trainees' awareness and control during live fire exercises.

Notable Quote:

“That's one of the light bulb moments of my shooting... I'm really putting input in this gun. I'm really doing this, or I'm really not pulling the trigger like I should.”
— Brandon (08:07)

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Building Confidence and Speed

The conversation transitions to the balance between accuracy and speed. Derek emphasizes that once a shooter is confident in their trigger control and accuracy without time constraints, they can begin to increase their shooting speed. This progression ensures that speed does not come at the expense of accuracy, a critical consideration for first responders in the field.

Key Points:

• Confidence in Control: Mastery of trigger control without pressure allows for gradual speed enhancement (13:28).
• Individual Pace: Recognizing that each trainee progresses differently, with some excelling quickly and others requiring more time (14:13).

Notable Quote:

“Once you're confident with the controls of the gun and you were confident that I could put bullets where I wanted given no time limit... then it was like, cool. Let's go faster.”
— Derek (13:40)

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Conclusion and Key Takeaways

The episode concludes with Derek and Brandon reiterating the importance of prioritizing aggressive and controlled trigger pulls over rigid adherence to traditional methods. They advocate for practical, scenario-based training drills that foster both speed and accuracy, ensuring that first responders are well-prepared for real-world encounters.

Final Thoughts:

• Simplify Training: Focus on fundamental trigger control without unnecessary complications.
• Aggressive Practice: Encourage aggressive trigger pulls to build stability and reduce recoil disruption.
• Continuous Improvement: Utilize drills that simulate real-life scenarios to enhance responsiveness and accuracy under pressure.

Notable Quote:

“The whole point was of talking to guys, hey, how many times do you point your gun at someone in your career and you've never shot them?... We've never trained that well. I've never trained that way until I was with Ben.”
— Brandon (08:22)

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Take Action

For first responders looking to improve their trigger control, incorporate the discussed drills into your training regimen. Start with dry fire exercises, progressively increase difficulty, and always emphasize aggressive yet controlled trigger pulls to maintain accuracy under pressure. As Derek aptly puts it, "Keep training hard."

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Train Hard. Stay Safe.

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Timestamps:

• 00:22 – Introduction by hosts Derek and Brandon
• 01:03 – Discussion on basic trigger control
• 02:42 – Derek on training perspective
• 07:10 – Simplifying trigger control techniques
• 08:07 – Brandon on effective drills
• 13:28 – Building confidence and speed
• 14:13 – Recognizing individual training paces

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the TTPOA podcast, a podcast for SWAT officers, military and all first responders. We'll be talking training, tactics and leadership with the best subject matter experts around. Here are your hosts, Derek and Brandon.

[B]

Well, well. Welcome back to another edition of Shooting with Notorious Be and Steger. So this topic we're going to bring up right now is trigger control. Man, I think this, especially in law enforcement, can get a little confusing for folks, especially if you're in my age group and you were taught a certain way for the trigger and all that kind of stuff. So we brought in the subject matter expert with shooting, Benjamin over here. So, Ben, what do you got, man, for us when it comes to trigger control?

[A]

I'm curious. I would say trigger controls pulling the trigger without moving anything else. But what, what the hell did they teach you?

[B]

Well, the whole reset trigger, every time. You gotta find the wall, get back to the wall. Okay, here's your wall. Okay. All that kind of stuff. Well, there's a place in time for it. Right. But not like.

[A]

Yes, I know. I get what you're saying. Yeah, I, I knew. I was pretty sure I knew the answer.

[B]

Yeah, no, no, I know.

[A]

So trigger control is. It's as simple as said.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Pulling the trigger without moving the gun.

[B]

Off the target, very easy, but hard to do.

[A]

It's simple. It's simple. It's not easy. But I think the stuff that you're talking about with like all the prep and press or reset riding, that is what jacks people up. It's not so much the concept of trigger control. So it's from a training perspective. What I think you should do is pull the trigger relatively aggressively. Like, you know, roll through the trigger, pull the trigger, try not to move the gun. If the targets are closer. And you can, you can pull the trigger more aggressively without moving it out of your aiming area. That's good. You should do that at distance. You are going to pull the trigger a little bit more slowly and carefully, but still pretty quickly. And again, try not to move the gun out of the aiming area. This is very difficult. This is not easy. And a lot of times people like, oh, it's trigger control. I think we talked about it with grip. It's. It's not just like, yeah, there's more to it. There's. All of the other muscles in your body are engaging. There's a lot of things that are happening while you're trying to pull the trigger straight.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it takes training to do it. I think people, the training should be fast. In my Opinion you should get towards aggressive shooting because it's difficult to do this fast. It's very, it's. Well, it's not very easy, but it's relatively easy to do it slow. The more slowly you're doing trigger control, the easier it's going to be. Right. So guys want to extend the distance and try to shoot really small groups. I think you want to, you have to be able to do that. But the faster, more aggressive shooting is going to help develop you. But I think the problem is, like I said, all this stuff you're talking about with, you know, prep and press, reset riding, or guys call it click banging. No, I think what happens is instructors, whoever, people come up with these methodologies for how you should pull the trigger and they start articulating it and it becomes very, very complicated where they're like, oh, so I draw the pistol. And this would be competitive shooters. Cops should definitely not do this. I don't think competitive shooters should do it, but they'll be like, yeah, draw the pistol on the target. Then I'll prep, like, touch, touch the trigger. Like when it's, you know, not at your eye target line either. Like, oh, I touch, I prep. Or there'd be guys with double action pistols be like, yeah, you know, I like, you know, pull the trigger back but just, just before it goes off. And then, you know, clean up the side picture and then pull through. Or I'll pull the trigger and the gun goes off and then I'll release it just to hear the audible click of the reset. And then I'll press you. Right. There's all these different things and I think those things are like, strictly speaking, not relevant. What I do after the round is out of the gun. Doesn't matter, the round's gone. Right, Right. So like the way I engage with the trigger, after that it's gone. It is clearly not necessary to prep and press because if you watch high level competitive shooters shooting aggressively, they are not doing that. Yeah, nobody is doing that.

[B]

No, no, Cops are doing it when they're shooting.

[A]

Right.

[B]

58 rounds.

[A]

Right. So what I think is happening there is like, instructors are giving guys a mental device and it's, it's two things. It's outcome based and it's slow. So what I mean is what do you need to get. Wait, you'll give guys a way to get them to pass the qual, which is like, oh, the. For the string. That's at what? I don't know if the qual is in this state for here, like, whatever.

[B]

At this distance, 25 yards is usually.

[A]

About the father 25 yard line. You're like, yep. You're gonna want to like make sure you ride that reset.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And whatever. And then guys can shoot accurately. Not really fast from like a performance standpoint, but accurately enough to pass the qual. And what the, what you do when you say, hey, ride the reset like that, you're giving that guy a mental device and he's paying attention to how he's pulling the trigger and then becomes successful enough to pass that thing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Right. So what I think all of these, all of the trigger control stuff, all of those different kind of camps that people are in for how to pull the trigger, that's just giving guys a device mentally to get them to pay attention to pulling the trigger, to do that.

[B]

So if you were teaching some new person in the, in the police academy, would you even cover that or just.

[A]

Absolutely not do any of that.

[B]

Just. Just pull the trigger back?

[A]

No, I would. I articulated minus. It's like, hey, I'm gonna be in control of it, so I'm gonna stack up the pressure. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. If it's 5 pound trigger, it's 1, 2, 3, 4,.

[B]

5.

[A]

If the target's at 5 yards, it'll be like, what if they're 5? Like faster than I could say it, the target's at 50 yards. It'll be like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. As I roll the pressure onto the trigger until eventually it breaks for that.

[B]

I mean, you look at just different guns. I mean, yeah, you got a Glock you got to see. You got a staccato. Got a wall. I mean, they're right. So walls are these, quote walls are so different from all these.

[A]

So that this is actually a fun discussion we had at the last conference. I was at the summit. I was at 1. One guy, one instructor left his 2,011 at the Airbnb he was staying at. Right. So we're out there. He's got to teach. No problem. Got a 2011 right here, buddy. Here's my staccato. It's like, great. Well, he's a prep and presser, so he pistol comes out of the holster. Like he saves off safes. Then he goes to touch the trigger and the gun goes off because he has a short trigger shoe on his 2011 and I have a medium trigger shoe. So touch for a short shoe is the medium shoes going on? Right. So this is what happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this was the whole discussion they had was just like, yeah. So I Don't have a technique that's reliant on any of this stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I'm not super sensitive to different trigger weights or walls or this or that. I mean, I have to be shooting really aggressively for that stuff to matter a whole lot, that kind of thing. And it's like, this is why a lot of this stuff is why. Yeah, it's like I'm not. I. I'm not on some train like prep and press, reset, ride. Prep and press. I don't do that stuff. Yeah, I mean, I do what I said. Just like roll the pressure through the trigger, and then when I release it, when I reset the trigger, my finger just comes off.

[B]

It goes all the way off of there.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So you did a drill. The one of the first times I trained with you, and man, I got so much out of it. It was the trigger control where you take the dot, the pasty, and. And have your finger outside the trigger guard or so you can place it different places. And did it live?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then dry fired it and then did it live again. And man, that drill. The light bulb came on.

[A]

Yeah. So, guys, see, that's a great drill. It's very realistic for a cop. Start position for a drill finger outside of the trigger guard. And then they get a stimulus to shoot.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And now the gun has to go off. Now. Yes, right now. That's a difficult thing.

[B]

Oh, man. Like, that was. That was the light bulb moment of. I can think of several light bulb moments of my shooting of going to different classes and them. And that was one of them. And I use that when I teach. When I was teaching in Arkansas last week that I did that drill, first thing I started off and man, just the light bulbs of guys of them seeing it. And then you feel it, especially when you do the dry fire portion of it because you're like, oh, shit, man. I'm really putting input in this gun. I'm really doing this, or I'm really not pulling the trigger like I should. And then when you put the bullets back in and you do it, you start seeing the corrections automatically with these guys doing it. But the whole point was of talking to guys, hey, how many times do you point your gun at someone in your career and you've never shot them? You're pointing your gun a lot and your fingers outside the trigger guard. But if they do something that makes you have to shoot them, where are you going with that gun? You're not going to the wall. You're going all the way back. And I Mean, you're working that trigger as fast as you can, and. And the light bulb is coming on that. You know what? We've in all of them, we've never trained that well. I've never trained that way until I was with Ben. I'm like, hey, here's where I learned this from. Like, I think that drill right there alone for law enforcement is invaluable.

[A]

Right. And you can, you can train in kind of phases where.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, if you want, as a, as an exercise, do it dry. Just start with your. Your pistol in your hand, aimed at a really small area. Set a timer to random. Right. So it gives you a stimulus. And then when you hear the beep, pull the trigger. Right. And start trigger prepped all the way up to the wall. Right. Beep, press. That would be pretty easy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then take your finger, like, let all the slack out of the trigger. Beat, press. Then finger out of contact with the trigger still in the trigger guard. Then finger along the side of the frame, beat, press. And you see those things get exponentially more difficult.

[B]

Yes, they do. Yeah, they do. And you told me, you said, man, if you just. That two weeks straight, you would see a huge change in your shooting. And. And I took that to heart. I really, I still. That's one of my favorite dry fire things.

[A]

Pretty drunk when I said, yeah.

[B]

I mean, of course you see me shooting. You're like, you haven't been doing so.

[A]

Except buy a new gun.

[B]

Yeah. But I think that's a great tool. So when you're doing that drill or you were doing that dry fire, what are you looking for? As someone who's listening, that's like, I want to try this. So what. What are the things that they're going to be looking for that they're the do's and the don'ts on that.

[A]

Right. So they're gonna. What they should do is do it immediately and aggressively. So deep click.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Right. They want the gun to go off. Now, it's important not to solve your problems. You could maybe temporarily solve a problem by slowing down, but ultimately you don't solve it by slowing.

[B]

Slowing down.

[A]

Right. So it should be aggressive. Right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So beat, press. And then the other thing is, as their finger moves more and more out of contact with the trigger, they get away from prepping it to the wall. They're going to feel all the movements in their hand.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

In their especially, you know, pay attention to your dominant hand. Feel how you're kind of changing the pressures in your hand as you want to Pull the trigger and especially do it aggressively. And you start to train out the input that you're putting into the gun.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Right. Like the, like the moves in your, your other fingers, the changes in hand tension as you start going harder. Like that's the stuff that you train to get rid of.

[B]

Okay. So how much, how much is the acceptable movement of the gun when you're doing that dry fire drill from the frame all the way through, through the.

[A]

Well, all of it. And none of it, I guess, is acceptable. At the same time, I want that to have my finger outside of the, the trigger guard on the frame of the pistol and I react to an audible stimulus and I slam the trigger back and that the, the site doesn't move at all.

[B]

At all.

[A]

That's what I want.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I'm going to train so aggressively that that's very, very difficult.

[B]

Difficult to do, not impossible.

[A]

Right. And then I'll learn from how I move the sights, how I, how I feel my hands. Right. I'll feel the input that I put into the gun. So I'm going to go aggressively enough that I can't do it perfectly and learn from it. That's the way I'm putting it.

[B]

So once again, it comes back to grip with your trigger control.

[A]

Because grip, trigger control, envision. They're kind of like the same concept in a sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like I hold the gun and I stay connected to it, but I'm not, like, I'm not doing that with my trigger finger.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

And that's. So my trigger finger can move independently for that.

[B]

Yeah. And then so we, we talk. You talk a lot about speeding up and shooting faster. So obviously that's working the trigger faster. When it, when is it, when should you start doing that? Is that like, hey, day two in the academy, is that like, hey, I have to have a little bit of time on this gum before I really start pushing the pace or what? What's been your experience with teaching people?

[A]

When should they go faster?

[B]

Yeah, like, I mean, I have to have to first develop accuracy, I guess. I mean, some, some relatively. I mean, like day one, I'm not just blazing away. First time I ever shot a gun.

[A]

No, I would say once you are, once you're confident in yourself. Like, to me, I started to try to shoot faster once I was confident with the controls of the gun and I was confident that I could put bullets where I wanted given no time limit. Right. And I got a little bit comfortable with the operation of the gun.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Then it was like, cool. Like, yeah, let's go faster.

[B]

Okay. So you. And you need to start gauging that yourself of, like, hey, I, I, I got.

[A]

I can shoot different for different people. You hire some retards and some, like, smart guys.

[B]

You know how. Yeah, so, no, I definitely understand that.

[A]

I can say whatever I want on this podcast. It's great you made a face. But anyway, it's awesome.

[B]

No, no, I know what you mean, because each, Each person. And I think speed is relative to that person as well.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's. You're on your own journey. So, like, there's some guys that are, like, physically just studs. They're very talented, they're very athletic. They're going to pick this stuff up very intuitively and quite.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And other people are going to struggle, and that's the way it is for that. It's okay. But it's like. Yeah. When you feel comfortable and safe with the operation of the pistol, you can shoot it slow and get it to do what you want. Okay, well, sounds like you're in pretty good position to start going faster.

[B]

Yeah, you can do that for sure. Yeah. So. All right. Anything else we need to add to trigger control, things like that?

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

All right, man. All right, well, another good one. I like it. So go out and work on that drill. I'm telling you, you'll see a lot of benefit with that one. All right, boys and girls, keep training hard.