TTPOA "Train-Up's" - Ben Stoeger Discuses Vision

Summary

TTPOA Podcast Episode Summary: "Train-Up's" with Ben Stoeger on Vision

Release Date: November 10, 2024
Host: TTPOA Hosts (A & B)
Guest: Ben Stoeger

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Introduction

In this episode of The TTPOA Podcast, hosts A and B engage in a dynamic discussion with renowned shooting expert Ben Stoeger. The focus centers on the critical role of vision in shooting, exploring techniques, common misconceptions, and training methodologies to enhance accuracy and effectiveness for SWAT officers, military personnel, and first responders.

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Understanding Vision in Shooting

"You hit where you look." (00:35-00:40) – B

Ben Stoeger emphasizes the foundational principle that shooters inevitably strike where their vision is directed. This seemingly straightforward concept carries profound implications for training and execution in high-stakes environments.

Key Points:

• Visual Fixation: Shooters often fixate on their firearm, which can inadvertently cause shots to land where attention is divided. Stoeger recounts personal instances where excessive focus on the gun led to unintended shot placement, highlighting the dual-edged nature of this tendency.

  "I was staring at that C, and I put it right in the sea." (00:54-00:58) – A

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Target Focus vs. Specific Aiming Points

"The tendency for people is they're fixated on the gun." (02:27-02:34) – B

Stoeger delineates the difference between target focus and pinpoint aiming. Newer shooters might concentrate too broadly on the target or the firearm itself, diluting their accuracy.

Strategies Discussed:

• Point of Aim: Directing focus to a specific, small area of the target rather than the entire surface enhances precision. For example, training with uniform, featureless brown USPSA targets forces shooters to concentrate on minimal visual cues.

  "I like training on the brown USPSA targets because they're not giving you a feature to look at." (02:34-03:00) – B

• Color Confirmation: Utilizing colored targets, such as yellow-painted steel, allows shooters to direct their aim more effectively by focusing on the designated color rather than any arbitrary part of the target.

  "If you drive your focus to a particular part of the yellow, you'll get a much better result." (04:00-04:05) – B

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Confirmation and Aiming Schemes

"Confirmation or aiming schemes, think of it as yin and yang." (06:07-06:10) – B

Stoeger introduces the concept of balancing precise focus with reactive adjustments based on visual cues during shooting. This involves:

• Stable Dot Technique: For precision shooting, maintaining a stable aiming dot ensures that shots remain true to the intended target area.

  "With a handgun, if I'm shooting for precision, what I want is a stopped stable dot." (06:42-07:08) – B

• Reactive Adjustments: In dynamic scenarios, shooters must adapt their aim based on real-time visual feedback, such as a moving sight or environmental changes.

  "I'm going to react to something from my sights which may not be very precise." (06:27-06:30) – B

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Shot Calling and Cause-Effect Understanding

"Shot calling is tying cause with effect when you're shooting." (13:04-13:05) – B

Expanding beyond traditional definitions, Stoeger describes shot calling as the ability to link shooter actions directly with their outcomes. This nuanced understanding transcends merely recognizing where a bullet has landed, fostering a deeper comprehension of shooting mechanics and feedback.

Training Challenges:

• Adaptive Environments: Training shot calling at varying distances and speeds complicates the ability to predict shot placement, necessitating comprehensive practice scenarios.

  "As the shooting speeds up, shot calling actually gets a lot more difficult." (14:36-14:40) – B

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Integration of Vision, Grip, and Shooting Mechanics

"Gripping the gun correctly ties into your vision." (10:05-10:08) – A

Stoeger underscores the interconnectedness of vision with other fundamental shooting components, such as grip. Proper grip ensures that the sight picture remains consistent and that the shooter's focus is maintained on the intended target area.

Key Insights:

• Unified Technique: Vision, grip, and trigger control must operate in harmony. Training that isolates these elements can be less effective than integrated drills that mirror real-world scenarios.

  "They all work together, and to understand one is to understand all of them." (11:03-11:10) – B

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Practical Drills and Training Methods

"Set targets at different distances to train focal depth changes." (18:48-18:50) – B

To enhance visual acuity and adaptability, Stoeger recommends drills that challenge shooters to focus on targets at varying distances. This approach trains the eye muscles to adjust focus swiftly, a critical skill in dynamic operational settings.

Recommended Drills:

• Depth Variation Drill: Place targets at multiple distances (e.g., 5, 10, 15 yards) to compel shooters to adjust their focus and aim accordingly. This mirrors real-life scenarios where targets may not always be at a consistent distance.

  "Learn to focus on different spots by setting targets in depth." (18:48-19:03) – B

• MAD X Training: Implement drills like MAD X (Move, Aim, and Drag), which involve rapid target transitions and adaptive aiming strategies to simulate high-pressure environments.

  "That's where shot calling actually gets a lot more difficult as the shooting speeds up." (19:35-19:40) – B

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Conclusion

The episode culminates with a reinforcement of the importance of continuous, integrated training. Stoeger encourages shooters to embrace the complexity of vision and its interplay with other shooting fundamentals. The hosts wrap up by highlighting the necessity of practice and self-awareness in achieving proficiency.

"Don't email Ben because he'll tell you to go out there and do it yourself." (20:14-20:18) – A

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Notable Quotes

• B: "You hit where you look." (00:35-00:40)
• A: "I put it right in the sea." (00:54-00:58)
• B: "I like training on the brown USPSA targets because they're not giving you a feature to look at." (02:34-03:00)
• B: "Shot calling is tying cause with effect when you're shooting." (13:04-13:05)
• B: "They all work together, and to understand one is to understand all of them." (11:03-11:10)
• A: "Don't email Ben because he'll tell you to go out there and do it yourself." (20:14-20:18)

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The TTPOA Podcast offers invaluable insights into the nuanced role of vision in shooting. Ben Stoeger's expertise, combined with the hosts' practical experiences, provides listeners with actionable strategies to refine their aiming techniques, enhance accuracy, and develop a comprehensive understanding of the interrelated aspects of shooting mechanics. Whether you're a seasoned professional or new to the field, the discussions presented here serve as a critical resource for advancing your training and operational effectiveness.

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Train Hard.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Welcome to the TTPOA podcast, a podcast for SWAT officers, military, and all first responders. We'll be talking training, tactics and leadership with the best subject matter experts around. Here are your hosts.

[A]

F, Derek. He debated me. Yeah. F him. It's all about me now. Actually, we have a new host coming in. Just getting all that worked out.

[B]

Got a new host. You're running this.

[A]

Yeah, we got a new co host. They haven't kicked me off yet, so I'm still here.

[B]

You should run a selection. Like, it wouldn't be like physical fitness. It'd probably be like alcohol tolerance.

[A]

Who can drink and talk the longest. That'd be a good tryout. I bet you do well. Tap.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I bet you do. All right, so we back. We're back with the notorious Ben Steger. So we're talking some more shooting. He is a subject matter expert. Expert. Can't even talk. So enjoy these two. These two podcasts that we've done. I've gotten a lot out of it. Hope you have, too. So now we're going to go on to vision shooting your vision. Acceptable sight pictures. And this is one thing that can get kind of in the weeds sometimes with folks of. Of understanding what that looks like. I know I still, man. There's times I'm like, what the was I looking at? But I think at the end of the day, it's a good thing and it's a bad thing because you shoot where you. Where you're looking at, which is good and bad. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, you hit where you look.

[A]

Yeah. And that's. There's been times I'm like, why was I staring at that C. And I put it right in the sea. I'm like, damn, that's really good of me, Brandon. But I was not. Shouldn't have been looking there. So tell us about vision, Ben. Let me. Let me give it to you. It's your show now.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Take it over.

[B]

Like, I like to say it like this. You hit where you look?

[A]

Yes, sir.

[B]

Or worse.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Better or worse. So like you said, I'm looking at that. See, I hit that. It's like.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So it's like if I was like, let's say I was a simunitions role player with a bunch of TTPOA guys, you know what? I would want one thing. Gloves. Gloves. So all these guys are going to be coming in here looking at my hands and then deciding whether or not they're going to shoot me, and that's where they're going to hit are very often Hands are going to hit where you look. So that's something. I think people. I think people understand that, and they don't really understand how it's. It's. It's an immutable thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You hit where you look.

[A]

No, it is. I think one of the analogies you gave is, like, driving. Like, you look where you go and you don't. You know, I think that's. I always think about that. I'm like, oh, yeah, when I drive a car, I'm looking at where I'm gonna. Car just goes there. It's kind of crazy how that works.

[B]

Yeah. So that's the first thing, like, you hit where you look. So with vision, we want to control very much where we're looking. All right. So the tendency for people is they're fixated on the gun. They want to look at the gun and look at the sites, especially as they're newer, you know, like, their attention is on that. Whereas the counterintuitive and difficult thing to get. Is to get their attention fixated out onto, you know, where they want the bullet to go.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then trust that the gun is going to go to that spot.

[A]

Go there.

[B]

That's. That's a difficult thing. Yeah, it is. Another thing is the target itself. So I. I like training, honestly, on the, you know, the brown USPSA targets, because they're not giving you a feature to look at.

[A]

No, they're not.

[B]

It was intentional.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They took that away. You don't get that? Nope. We just get a brown canvas for you to shoot at.

[A]

Yeah, they're hard. Especially when you put them in a shoot house. It is against plywood. You're like, damn it. It's all brown there.

[B]

Yeah, it's all brown. Like, I actually have to, like, kind of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Be attentive to what. So that's. That's. Next thing is it. It's like I have to look at a defined aiming area. Now, a training tool is like aiming references, like those black pasters, white pastries, whatever you're into. We got a thing jumping off here, huh?

[A]

All right, that's a fire truck, hose draggers, second responders.

[B]

Second responders.

[A]

Yeah, they're second responders.

[B]

They get the chicks.

[A]

They do get the chicks. Huh?

[B]

I feel like their schedules are better.

[A]

Oh, they have way better schedules. Like, I'm jealous of them. That's why I call them that, because I should have done that.

[B]

Yeah, it's. You look at. I think there's a lot of cops looking at that side of the house. Just Being like, man.

[A]

Especially nowadays, you're like, man, I should have been a fireman. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Anyway, all right, so the target matters. What people do a lot is they look at the entire target. Especially when you. If you look at guys shooting at steel, typically they're like, oh, it's hitting it anywhere is just as good as anywhere else. So that would be fine. So I'll look at the color. Like, let's say we painted the steel yellow. Yeah, shoot at yellow. Whereas you're going to get a much better result if you drive your focus to a particular part of the yellow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If that makes sense.

[A]

No, for sure.

[B]

Right. So that's one thing that is vision. You hit where you look. You know, aim small, miss small. I like to say Mel Gibson was right about that.

[A]

He was. That was a good scene too.

[B]

That's some other wild. Want to talk about.

[A]

Yeah, that's probably not this podcast.

[B]

It's not this podcast, but I'm telling you, if you want to do that, if we can do a podcast like a listen party to his traffic stop tapes, I would be down for that. That is some hilarious listening.

[A]

It is some crazy stuff. I can see you, though, popping on one day and doing that on your YouTube channel.

[B]

I would do that. I would 100 give that a YouTube. Probably remove my channel. But that's like. To me that when I think when someone's just being an unhinged, like, yeah, racist, anti Semite, I find that funny. I'll be real. I find that hilarious. So I love watching that stuff.

[A]

Oh, man, he. He's something else. Oh, so. All right, so back to vision.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What do we got?

[B]

All right, the other piece of this is confirmation or aiming schemes. So think of it as like yin and yang, the opposing forces. Right. I drive my attention to a very small spot. But then the other piece of that is I'm going to react to something from my sights which may not be very precise.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It might be imprecise or so drive my attention to a small spot, particular part of the target where I actually want bullets to go. And then the other thing that's in play is my sights. Like, what exactly am I going to react to?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

If guys haven't shot a lot or haven't played around with these concepts, this is the concept of confirmation or aiming schemes, which means I don't read. What? Like my sights don't get read the same way every time. I read them differently. I'm looking for different things based on the target distance and difficulty. Okay, good way to think about it is like, let's say with a handgun, if I'm shooting, I'm shooting for precision shooting the B8, the bull, you know, the bull.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Or I'm shooting groups.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

At 25 yards, right. It's going to be. What I want is a stopped stable dot. You know, it's not really going to stop and stabilize, but it'll kind of float around. You know, where I'm looking, I want to look at that spot. All right. And then that.it's going to be as quiet as I can get it. And then I release the shot, you know, without moving anything. I think most people listening to this.

[A]

Understand, understand that completely. That's kind of how you were trained in law enforcement. Just.

[B]

That's the textbook. Right. Say, yep, stabilize that dot, shoot. And a lot of guys, depending on what training they've been to, they may not. That's the concept. They know. Like, that's how you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The reality is you're going to want to read the site a lot of different ways. Right. Depending on what the circumstances are. So I might be reactive to the dot, like a bouncing ball.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. So let's say in the mid, kind of mid range type of stuff. Depending on the gun, I'm shooting whatever, 10, like 12 yards to maybe like, I don't know, 30, 40 yards. Right. In the kind of the mid range, like my, my sight is going to look like a bouncing ball. As soon as that ball goes to where I want, I'm going to react and pull the trigger.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I won't be sitting. Like, I don't want to sit on the site picture long enough that I would even perceive that. The dots floating sense.

[A]

Yeah. So it's not still or like I.

[B]

Wouldn'T be looking at it enough for it to be still. Like, as soon as I see that the dot is shaped like a dot in the aiming area, I'm going to react and pull the trigger. All right. So as the site comes into the target, it's going to be a slash or a streak or something like that, and then it'll turn into a dot and then it'll stabilize and then just float in a spot. Right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So let's say I'm not going to wait for it to stabilize and float. I just react when it looks like a dot. Okay, fair enough. At the ranges where cops typically use handguns, like inside of 10 yards, I'm not going to shoot the dot when it looks like a dot. I'm just going to react to the Color of it.

[A]

The color of the. So when you said the color like the slashing or just when you see.

[B]

I see red.

[A]

When they see that red, no matter what. Yeah. Get your green now.

[B]

Badass. Yeah, yeah. So I'll look at that. So this is what I mean. It's a yin and yang thing. So I look at a very, very small area, something the size of like a 1 inch square on a target. But then if I see, you know, color, like a streak of color near that thing, send it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. And this is what's hard for people to get is that that color confirmation to call it. Might call it confirmation to call it whatever you want. That is how typically how you do business with a handgun like that.

[A]

Yeah. And that's how the whole speed and accuracy starts being combined and married together.

[B]

Yeah. So I'm getting, I'm getting all of the things I want with that. I've been shooting practical targets at a practical, at a practical distance. I, I would say that it's like from a law enforcement perspective, holding the A zone is total accuracy.

[A]

That's.

[B]

You wouldn't ask people. You're training for more than that, I don't think. And like an engagement situation. So you're. You can, and you can get 100% accountability inside of the A zone in inside of 10 yards by just reacting to the color of your optic. So again, it is typically the way you do business.

[A]

One of the things that you told me one time we were out working, it was just me and you before one of the classes started and you came out to the range with me and I found this was fascinating. But you also said that like you can control the vision part is also tied into grip. Like you're shooting your vision, but it's also with grip as well. Do you remember telling me that like you were talking about that when, when I'm shoot when I'm looking at what I'm aiming at. Part of that is also is, is. Is grip because of, of the dot not having to go up so much. And, and, and that. So it's even, it was even tied into grip was also tied into my vision and stuff like that. I was like, okay, that, that made.

[B]

A lot of sense. So the concepts that we talked about the last few episodes where it's grip.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Index.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Vision confirmation. Really all of those are operating at the same time.

[A]

Yeah, that's, that's what's.

[B]

So that you cannot easily like pull them apart from the other. And really, if you understand, to understand one of them is to understand all of them.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Because they all work together, and I.

[A]

Didn'T understand that until you told me that. And I started thinking about it, and I started, once again, going on my own journey with this, and. And I realized how many things. And that's kind of what breaking this down into in different groups is good. But it also. It's good to kind of hit back on and re. Emphasize, hey, these are all married together at the same time. And it's putting all these things together to be really good at it. They have to be combined.

[B]

Yeah. From a training perspective, we can effectively train one concept at a time.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But in reality, you need to do all of the things.

[A]

Yeah. And that's. That's what is so simple, but so hard. So. So shot calling. You hear that? What does that exactly mean? Explain it to me.

[B]

Definitions vary. As usual, I'm kind of doing my own thing with the definitions, not you. Most people, when they say shot calling, they'll say, hey, you see the site left? It's like I see the sight lift off the target. So in. In a sense, they know where the round they just fired went to. Most people that shot calling, I like a little more expansive definition where it's like, it's. It's. It's connecting cause and effect.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

All right. So it. I don't necessarily need to see my sight lift to understand where. Where rounds are going, but just think shot calling is tying cause with effect when you're shooting.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which is a lot more. Right. It's a more expansive type of thing. It's like, yes, I know where the rounds are going. And I. Yep. Like. Yep. I see my. Like, I see my gun doing this. I see, you know, dirt splashing there or whatever. I'm seeing, like, and I understand, like, where the bullets coming out of my gun. I understand where they're going.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. And that. That. That takes a while. Would you. Would you agree with that one? As far as. That's a really.

[B]

This is one of those things. Shot calling is something that guys want to train as a separate concept. Like, they want to train shot calling, but I think that ends up being a little bit of a hindrance. So I've seen exercises, I've done them where you have guys draw and shoot a target that's at distance where they can't easily see the holes, then immediately look away from the target, holster their gun, and then mark on another target next to them where those rounds just went.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you could train shot calling as an exercise like that. I think that's a little limited because if you think things look a lot different. We just talked about the aiming scheme.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At 25 yards, that's way different.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Than when you're shooting 5, 7, 10 yards and within at closer distances, things are happening much faster. So the shot calling actually gets a lot more difficult as the shooting speeds up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And you're not going to read your gun that way. So that's where tried to train shot calling as a concept, but it kind of falls apart because you're not. You can't, you can't train it that easily up at close range like that. You could flip targets. You can use a shot out target as the front and then put a clean target behind it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

If that makes sense. So you can't tell on the target where your rounds are going and then look behind the target, that kind of stuff for that. But effectively, what you're doing with shot calling is tying. Cause with effect when you're shooting, it's understanding where rounds are going as you're firing them, which is going to take time.

[A]

Yeah. So the vision is a, a concept that just is. I'm always fighting that. I think a lot of guys are fighting that when they look at their, their target and there's one up there in the shoulder or, you know, I.

[B]

Would, I would say there's two types of dudes. There's dudes that understand this stuff and they work at it to be better, and there's guys that don't. It's kind of like, hey, man, have you, have you mastered trigger control? You still worry about trigger control, right? But of course you do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's always a consideration. I have to make sure I pull the trigger straight.

[A]

Yeah. Yep.

[B]

I try to do that the best I can. And it's very obvious to me when I don't do that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[B]

You're like, yep, I shanked that one.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And it's annoying. I hate it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The same way when I am shooting a target super fast and it looks awesome and I'm like, man, I probably look really cool right now. And I look at the dot and then the round goes up into the shoulder of the target like you're talking about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's just as annoying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. But being aware of that and really understanding what's causing that and being able to catch it when you do it, that. That alone is like, that's putting you in a different situation than people that think like, yeah, bro, it's a dot. Yeah. I'm target focused. What are you talking about? Yeah, right. Like, you're just like, oh, these guys don't know what the Going on.

[A]

No, you're right. I think you brought up a good point earlier when you're talking about looking at the whole brown target, and that is target focus. I know. For a while that's what. Yeah, that's what I was doing. I thought I was target focused, and I wasn't. And then I realized, okay, this is what I got to. I thought I was doing the right thing, but maybe you were target focused.

[B]

Yeah, but you had the wrong concept of target.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, you're looking at the whole thing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The target is like, no, my target is a.

[A]

Is a small piece, just like Uncle.

[B]

Mel told you to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's what you're trying to do.

[A]

Yeah. No, comel. But it is. It is like. It is a. Like, especially when you start running the gun fast and you're doing target transition and just that, you know, Ricky Bobby speed catches up, and you're like, okay, there's the brown target bounce in. You're like, oh, man. You can start off good. And then the speed of just the feeling it. You feel good. And then you just go to. After a while, you're like, what the hell is going on with that? But I do see that. I do. Like you said, I do recognize when I do something. For the most part. I think that's a good thing because you're learning a lot from most guys.

[B]

Most guys are not even aware of this.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

They believe their target focus. They don't understand. They don't understand whatever.

[A]

So transitioning from target to target. What's. What do you suggest doing that? Like, if you're doing some type of drill for your vision. What's the. What do you recommend? How do you set that up for guys to train that way to look. To talk about vision going from, hey, I want to go from one target to another target.

[B]

Oh. I think the big thing, especially for guys listening to this, is to understand that your eyes have work to do as far as, you know, the muscles in your eyes that control focusing on targets. One thing, guys have to set it up in depth. Right. So you. We need to actually set targets at different distances. Most guys listening to this, you. Maybe you dry fire. I hope you dry fire. Probably have all your targets on a single wall. And then you control the difficulty with the size of the target area. Right. It's really helpful and important to actually do focal depth changes where targets are set in Depth. Different distances. And that helps you a lot.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Learning to focus on different spots.

[A]

Different spots. So from one that's at 5 yards, one that's at 10 yards, one that's at 15 yards, just set back or.

[B]

Whatever, you can't really do that in your house.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

But you could do something, right, Like.

[A]

Yeah, not.

[B]

Yeah, one on this wall down the hallway. Yeah. Actually a different distance.

[A]

And then at the range you could do, you're doing drills like that.

[B]

You can tell you're at a range where it's like, oh, guys don't train this way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When all of the, you know, it's like a backer thing and there's not. You guys aren't using stands. It's like, oh, okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They just don't do that here.

[A]

Yeah. That is frustrating.

[B]

Well, it's. It's. I don't mind, but it's just telling you about the people that use that range.

[A]

No, I think that is a mad. What's the drill called? Mad.

[B]

MAD X or mx.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's. What kind of what you're talking about. That drill.

[B]

That drill.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's where targets are setting.

[A]

Yeah, there's all kind.

[B]

I mean, there's all kinds.

[A]

You can. Yeah, I think that's what's cool is that, man. It's kind of up to your imagination of. Especially with the vision portion of it and stuff. So anything else we need to discuss on vision? Yeah, it's fairly. It's. It's self exploring here. It's a. Your own journey we keep going on, so. All right, well, that's that episode about vision. So you have any questions, don't email Ben because he'll tell you to go out there and do it yourself. Which is the best answer.

[B]

Don't email me about occlusion. I haven't tried occlusion yet. I want to talk about it. Something. No, don't just try it.

[A]

Just do it. Just do it. All right, boys and girls, you all train hard out there.