TTPOA Train-Up's Series - "CQB Marksmanship " with Lead Faucet Tactical, Dan Brokos and Gabe Rivera

Summary

The TTPOA Podcast: TTPOA Train-Up's Series - "CQB Marksmanship"

Release Date: March 25, 2025

Hosts: Derek and Brandon

In this episode of The TTPOA Podcast, hosts Derek and Brandon delve deep into the nuanced world of Close Quarters Battle (CQB) Marksmanship. Joined by experienced professionals Dan Brokos and Gabe Rivera, the discussion centers around the integration of marksmanship into CQB training, the importance of weapon handling under stress, effective training methodologies, common pitfalls in shooting practices, and the paramount significance of mastering fundamentals for first responders operating on the front lines.

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1. The Integration of Marksmanship into CQB Training

Brandon introduces the topic by discussing the incorporation of marksmanship into their CQB classes. He explains that last year marked the beginning of a dedicated focus on marksmanship within their training framework.

"We did a two days of CQB marksmanship in three days of CQB. So there's a weak package down in Houston, and I've run that a couple times this year."
(Brandon, [01:30])

This integration aims to enhance the precision and effectiveness of first responders during high-stress operations, ensuring they can accurately neutralize threats while maintaining control over their weapon systems.

2. Importance of Accurate Shooting in CQB

The conversation underscores that marksmanship isn't just about hitting targets but also about managing and fighting effectively with available tools under pressure.

"If you're not a master of your weapons, you shouldn't be in the house. That's really what our stress test is."
(Brandon, [03:13])

Brandon emphasizes that mastering marksmanship ensures that responders can swiftly and accurately respond to threats without compromising their position or safety.

3. Managing Weapon Systems Under Stress

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the necessity of seamless weapon transitions during CQB scenarios. Brandon shares insights into common errors, such as unnecessary transitions between firearms, which can lead to loss of angles and increased vulnerability.

"You just gave up an angle. So it has that aspect of going on of like, you know, where I grew up, it was, you know, I won't say it's unrealistic, but if the only time you transition… you're not thinking enough to do attack reload."
(Brandon, [02:29])

The hosts highlight that effective weapon management is crucial for maintaining tactical advantage and ensuring mission success.

4. Training Drills and Methodologies

Brandon discusses various drills designed to enhance both speed and accuracy, emphasizing the balance between maintaining a fast pace and ensuring precise shots.

"If I'm not going, oh, I hope I get my PR on this. I'm going to go at a pace where I know I'm getting solid hits and that that has to be fast, but it has to also be accurate."
(Brandon, [05:03])

He elaborates on how these drills simulate real-life scenarios, enabling responders to develop reflexive shooting responses that are both quick and accurate.

5. Common Mistakes and Bad Habits in Training

The episode addresses several prevalent mistakes in shooting practices, particularly those influenced by social media trends. Matt raises concerns about techniques like "coming off safe", where the safety mechanism is bypassed prematurely, increasing the risk of accidental discharges.

"I've never come across anybody in all, in all of my time and travels that I would think that I would trust this person to support me… it's money."
(Matt, [28:57])

Brandon adds that such practices are not only unsafe but also counterproductive in real-world operations, where precision and control are paramount.

"If I can manage the recall of minimum of 10, it may not be 10, but there's no way with your buttstock disconnected your rifle… you’re not going to manage 10 round string on somebody."
(Brandon, [22:37])

6. Real-world Application and Stories

Matt shares a compelling story from his military experience, illustrating the importance of accurate marksmanship and the dangers of poor technique.

"I shot the middle of what he gave me, which was his butt cheek. I hit him in the hip, knocked him down. Guy rolled over, I stood up, I put one on the back of his neck and killed him."
(Matt, [17:37])

This narrative underscores the critical need for responders to understand their weapon's offset and maintain accuracy under pressure.

7. Emphasis on Fundamentals and Continuous Improvement

Gabe Rivera discusses the significance of mastering the basics to allow for advanced tactical maneuvers. He highlights how competitions and rigorous training push individuals to their limits, making their shooting responses almost automatic.

"It's no longer me thinking about the shooting, it's just happening in the background. So I'm freeing up my mind to think about problem-solving and getting my mission accomplished."
(Gabe, [09:26])

This approach ensures that responders can perform effectively without being overwhelmed by the mechanics of shooting during critical moments.

8. Team Training and First Responder Focus

Brandon shares a poignant lesson from his training days, emphasizing team cohesion and the importance of individual proficiency for the team's overall effectiveness.

"You're doing it for the team. Everybody wants to win, but you can't be the weakest link. The team depends on you to get better."
(Brandon, [36:22])

He reinforces that CQB is inherently a team sport, where each member's skills contribute to the collective success and safety of the unit.

9. Conclusion and Final Takeaways

The episode wraps up with a strong emphasis on continually honing foundational skills, understanding weapon dynamics, and prioritizing team efficacy over individual prowess.

"All we have is advanced swat. We're just showing you building on the foundation of what you already have… The principles are still the same."
(Derek, [34:19])

The hosts reiterate the importance of solid fundamentals, accurate shooting, and effective weapon management as the cornerstones of successful CQB operations.

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Notable Quotes

• Brandon on Marksmanship Importance:

  "If you're not a master of your weapons, you shouldn't be in the house."
  (Brandon, [03:13])

• Matt on Weapon Offset:

  "They put all five of them in the same damn hole because they're putting their red dot IN the middle of that thing."
  (Matt, [15:11])

• Gabe on Automated Shooting Responses:

  "The shooting part is already pre-programmed in me."
  (Gabe, [09:26])

• Brandon on Team Cohesion:

  "You can't be the weakest link. The team depends on you to get better."
  (Brandon, [36:22])

---

Key Takeaways

1. Integration of Marksmanship into CQB: Essential for enhancing responder accuracy and effectiveness during operations.
2. Weapon Management Under Stress: Mastery over weapon transitions and handling prevents loss of tactical advantage.
3. Balanced Training Drills: Combining speed with accuracy ensures responders can perform under pressure without sacrificing precision.
4. Avoiding Bad Habits: Techniques like "coming off safe" are dangerous and counterproductive, often propagated by misinformation.
5. Mastering Fundamentals: Solid foundational skills enable responders to execute complex maneuvers seamlessly.
6. Team Over Individual: Personal proficiency contributes to the overall strength and success of the team during missions.

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This episode serves as a critical resource for SWAT officers, military personnel, and first responders, providing actionable insights into improving CQB marksmanship through disciplined training, adherence to safety protocols, and unwavering commitment to team excellence.

Transcript

[Derek]

Welcome to the TTPOA podcast, a podcast for SWAT officers, military, and all first responders. We'll be talking training, tactics and leadership with the best subject matter experts around. Here are your hosts, Derek and Brandon. All right, man. Welcome back to another TTP way train up. And we're going to be talking once again still on the same principles of cqb, but on this one, we're going to be focusing on kind of the marksmanship side of cqb, what that looks like and stuff. So we're back with the same crew. We haven't left the backyard. Honky tonk. It's a nice night out here, man. I'm enjoying this.

[Brandon]

It is.

[Derek]

Yeah. Finally, we've got some cool weather in Texas, so only took till mid November right here. Yeah, it is. Only took till mid November to get halfway decent. I know that state fair Texas needs to start going like mid October to mid November instead of that early September where it's hot, dude.

[Matt]

I won't get out of the way. Not pushing it back any further.

[Derek]

You love the fair, man.

[Matt]

Not.

[Derek]

You love the fair. You got to work on that overtime.

[Matt]

Correct. They despise that assignment every year. It's not near as bad as it used to be. But I no desire to be at the fair.

[Derek]

No, man.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Derek]

I love the fair, but I don't have to work it. So that's one of those deals.

[Matt]

Different perspective.

[Derek]

For sure.

[Brandon]

For sure.

[Derek]

For definitely. For sure.

[Brandon]

So.

[Derek]

All right, let's get into the whole marksmanship side of it. Dan, I know you added, I guess, was it this year or last year you kind of started adding the marksmanship to the CQB class?

[Brandon]

Yes, I did like that. It was. It was last year, but some of those, like Marco down in Houston, just wanted to do a combo. We did a two days of CQB markership in three days of cqb. So there's a weak package. We just. Down in Houston, and I've run that a couple times this year.

[Derek]

I think maybe next time I have you back. Let's do that. Because I think that's important aspect of that and stuff. Stuff. So marksmanship. So what are you teaching in that? Why are we teaching that? What. What's so important about marksmanship, man? Like, really, we need to have that because some of these targets I've seen, they don't have marksmanship like shotgun blast, so.

[Brandon]

Well, it sort of came from, you know, you. You guys teaching us with me over the last six years, and yeah, you really. You can judge some of it in in man marker.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

But not just the marksmanship, but fighting with the tools that you have.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

I don't know how many times. Yeah, there's different pulse, but I do will have a malfunction. And look at his carbine. Dude, what are you doing? Yeah, pistol needs to be out. And then he'll pull his pistol out, shoot the target, reholster his pistol, and then pull up his carbine. I'm like, yo, homie, you just did that in front of an open door. It's like, I already shot in there. Well, in reality, move inside rooms.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And you just gave up an angle. So it has that aspect of going on of like, you know, where I grew up, it was, you know, I won't say it's unrealistic, but if the only time you transition, if you had a malfunction and it was part of the mental thing, like if you ran the bolt lock inside the house, you're not thinking enough to do attack reload. That, that type of aspect of, you know, I go back to our, our stress test in our schoolhouse. It really, really. It was about markership. Of course it has to be. But it was also about managing the tools you fight with because CQB is hard enough. And, you know, if you're thinking about hitting something and whether you need to reload your carbine or do. Should I top my pistol off after get it out? There's so many aspects to think about cqb and if you're not a master of your weapons, you shouldn't be in the house. That's really what our stress test is. It's like, all right, that dude just ran from here to here. He transitioned with his pistol shot 10 rounds. Didn't top it off. Then he grabbed his carbine, moved to the next station without a loaded gun. What's. What good is he in the house if he can't manage his tools? So that's one aspect of it. And then there's a significant amount of shooting and moving because, you know, we're on the move in cqb. And the reality is, is, you know, human beings don't stand still. And everybody wants to shoot an 8 or 10 inch circle. But in reality, so many turns and runs outside, you know, the average shoulder is four and a half inches. I gotta be able to aim small. It's small. And also bolts don't do a good job of stopping humans. You know, we shoot what we one, two rounds and man marker because it's expensive.

[Derek]

Right.

[Brandon]

But at the end of the day, you Know I'm shooting till I get a reaction out of the target. In my mindset, that's a minimum of 10 and I can't afford to miss inside a house because unless it's concrete, drywall stops nothing. You know, I say that and we also get paid to shoot. Second, bad guys don't have to discriminate. They just can point and spray. We can't afford to do that, man. We have to identify a gun that's also part of the think man's game and make every shot count. And Sometimes we play 3 or 4 inch circles inside the house.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And it slows you down. There's some training mythology in there, but at the end of the day, it's kind of in a nutshell, that's what it's about.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Derek]

So is there certain drills that you're working on with these guys when we're doing this?

[Brandon]

Yeah, there is, there is. And the, the time constraints are really come on, getting fast, accurate hits. But really it's, I don't want to get too involved in the mechanics of it of like, you know, I got this saying is, you know, you can run one 5.15 splits all day long, which is great for training. And you have to real the difference between, hey man, am I going to run a build drill 1 out of 10 times at my PR pace or when a human being pops out, man, I need to be 10 for 10. And that's probably not my PR pace because I'm not going, oh, I hope I get my PR on this. I'm going to go at a pace where I know I'm getting solid hits and that that has to be fast, but it has to also be accurate on it. And you know you're not going to make some of these times if you transition to your start with one of the drills, start with 3 rounds new carbine, got to hit all 4 and circle at 10, transition your pistol, hit a 5 inch circle, top your pistol off, get your carving back up, put two more to the head. Is that realistic in cqb? No, but that teaches you to manage your load and fight with your tools.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And if you got a time, if you're not moving, you missed your holster one time. And you know, it's kind of funny is I'm not man. You know, Jared Reston called me one time, he's like, hey man, you want to do this video for Safariland? These guys got their new 6000 series in and they said the guns don't fit. When I flew out there they fit. You gotta, you gotta leave with your. Tackle it when you're. Holster that. Not trying to go like this. Straight down in there.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

It's little things like that that, you know, you guys like, you have been on SWAT teams for years, find it very easy.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

But you know, look at our class right here. We take these out the flat range, we'd be, we'd be covering that stuff right here. So that's what it is. It's. It's not. It's a basic. I call it intermediate. But it's, it's, it's still very challenging.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Derek]

Because that is, that's the other part of the putting it all together. The CQB is the gun handling, marksmanship, Marion speed and accuracy and putting that all together because, man, you could have all the footwork and you know, I'm in the right spot and man, we kicked the door open and did all this cool shit, but if I can't shoot, dude, you have no business being that house.

[Brandon]

And I think it comes down to. You can look at dudes at the start of the class if they're confident their weapons handling, they're going to be. Yes, for the most part, you know they're going to be. They can be taught cqb. But if these dudes are fumbling around and grabbing their mag. Well, grabbing their Magwell.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And shooting the carbine and his butt stocks completely collapsed in. It's not MP5, homie.

[Derek]

Yeah. I really truly think, I think it would be an interesting experiment if you took some GM shooters and just pick four of them and said, okay, we're going to teach you CQB this week. I bet they would do way better than most guys that come to some of these classes do. Just because they put so much work into the shooting part of it that they're not even thinking about the shooting. They're just telling, they're. You're just telling them, hey, I want you to go here, here and here. And this is what you do. Go in this room, you go left, you go right, you do this, you do that. Because those guys put in so much time that that's not gonna be a hard thing for them because they've been processing, running around, doing different matches and coming in and out, getting a different shooting positions and going at blazing speed. I really think that they could do CQB and you could teach them and be very proficient with that.

[Brandon]

I, I agree with you. 100. Because that's what the whole goal of our training three weeks is to Take the thinking out of fighting.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

That's fighting with your carbine and your pistol.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

You know, everybody's carving primary nowadays, but you got to be just as good your secondary.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

You know, CQB is a game of multiple targets indoors, and professional shooters know how to do that very well.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

I mean, processing the room, but processing multiple targets don't even cover where a guy comes in here and maybe he has to take two shots across the room. How fast really is that? Am I going to lollipop that or am I going to drive that thing over? And that's what good shooters have the ability to do.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Thinking out of fight with your kit and honestly worry about cqb.

[Derek]

Yeah, for sure. Gabe, you're m class shooter now and you compete a lot. How much does that help you with CQB and stuff?

[Gabe]

So it's helped tremendously. And that's one thing I wanted to bring the aspect to, is you're pushing yourself to your limits. Right. Reaching those red lines in that training aspect. So I know what's required. And it's no longer me thinking about the shooting, it's just happening in the background. So I'm freeing up my mind to think about problem solving and getting my mission accomplished. The whole sights and trigger and grip stuff, that's out the window. That's an excess of hard skills that's already built in.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Gabe]

And I've done that. I've pushed myself in training to see where the wheels fall off when I need to be super aggressive on my trigger and on my gun and seeing where literally the wheels fall off and I start losing that marksmanship. Right. So I know where that fine line is for me, so I know where I can push to. Something I learned from like JJ Racaza is he has his match speed and he has his training speed or his practice speed, and he's pushing himself to the red line. See where that's at. And then he's on a. A major national level match. He backs that off to his 85, 95% or 90%. So he knows he's getting hits 100 of the time or he's attempting to get hits 100 of the time. So he's backing it off a little bit, but he's pushed himself to the red line to understand where it is for him. So now it's his coasting speed, but his coasting speed is like 10 times faster than my fast speed. So it's just understanding, like pushing your limits, pushing yourself to that. So now I don't have to think about it.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Gabe]

My mind is. Is working on other things. The shooting part is already pre programmed in me.

[Derek]

No, for sure. And I think that just goes back to understanding. You have to be able to apply this on a range with real bullets and understand, hey, what are we getting at? Because there are some times where we're HR and we don't know what that HR is going to be. Is it going to be the guy we come in the room and the bad guys alone or is the bad guy, you know, does he have the hostage around the neck? Does it, is he showing a small portion? We don't know. I don't fucking know. No one knows. But you got to be able to understand, hey, here is what my target is. Here's what is acceptable. Here's what's not acceptable. Do I have the whole body? Do I have this small little piece? And I think that goes back to once again training, like we said earlier, training the shootouts, training on a flat range, simulating runs as cqb and then also working on your own skill set to develop that, whether it's practical shooting. Are you going out and setting up things on your own, working with other guys to get that speed down? Where I understand, hey, this is, this is my pace. I know I can shoot at a predictable level that are. I mean, I'm reacting to what my sights are telling me. I'm reacting to what's going on here. And I'm now not shooting at 16, 17 splits, but I'm shooting at 21 splits, which. Okay, I can do that. I understand that. I get that. That. And that's still really fast when you're looking at other guys.

[Gabe]

So that's why I think like the vision portion of it is so critically important. And that's like shooting matches and shooting so many target arrays at such a speed.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Gabe]

Now I insert myself into the house and I'm. My vision is picking things up sooner than what I used to. Before it took me longer to perceive what I was actually seeing.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Gabe]

Now it's like I'm used to seeing this stuff. It's pre programmed. I'm making decisions a lot sooner than I would have to be rushed to make them faster.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Derek]

For that. No, I agree, I agree with that. Matt, One of the things that, man, we, we've had this conversation many, many times. And then when you teach at the advanced swat, one of the things that now is kind of like a staple when you teach is the holdover.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Derek]

Talk about that. What have you seen with Teaching guys with understanding what an offset holdover is and stuff.

[Matt]

Yeah, well, to. Before getting that to say that I think the problem with all the, all the. There's so much more training available now, whether it be ipsic or these matches, whatever, is that I don't think people take the time just figure out how to apply it and how to use it, what they do. And I see bad habits coming back. And so I think people just need to be careful that you, it's like you have to realize where you are. You got to have fundamentals. Guys that have been in this business for a while, I think it's an easier move for them to go do that than say a younger guy who maybe is not sound in his skill sets because he now goes out and builds bad habits or he's doing things that don't like. You got to have the knowledge to filter through that because not, not all applicable. Everything after the three gun is not going to be the same thing as an ipsy. This doesn't mean the same thing as a tactical entry. So I think all that is there, is there validation with some of it to you to some degree. But what happens is, is how it goes into the hold offs and all that is that people want to shoot fast. They're all on the ground, they're all seeing these guys shoot these, you know, these strings of fire and the bill drills and all that. And they're like, I can shoot a bill drill really fast. I'm like, yes, because you know you're about to shoot that, you know, you, you already have it in your mind. You got your holster set because you've got the, the safety, you know, hood rolled down and you've got everything set up, you know, to where you want to do this. And so what happens is, is we go out to do this classes and I'm sure you'll see the same thing. Okay, I start off with this, the basic stuff. At seven yards, I make them shoot a one inch dot or square with their car beans. No time, right? I said you have five shots to put on there. You can do it any speed you want. No rush. Go. About 75% of them can't do it. Maybe they get one, they get lucky. And what I'm stunned by is, is that of course they're all. Because there's mechanical offsets involved, right? It's two and a half, two and a quarter inches off of their height over bore. And they put all five of them in the same damn hole because they're putting their red dot IN the middle of that thing. And they never think if I maybe moved up that same distance, I might hit the gray square we want me to hit.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And I'm like, these are the guys that should not be out shooting bill drills. They don't even know that their hold off is two and a half inches. And you know, here's the thing about the eotech, it has the tick mark in it. Right. And so I am stunned by how many guys go, Matt, I've never been told that. I'm like, how long have you been on swat? Like three years, you know, whatever. What are the case may be?

[Derek]

What do you think that thing is for?

[Matt]

And I'm like. And I asked him to say, what do you think that thing? You know, tech's not just building that for the fun of it. There's a reason for us there. Like here's the, here's, here's the cheat. How to crack the code on that thing. Use that bottom six o'clock tick mark. And it's money. Like you know, we're somewhere online. And they're like, I've never been told that.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And I, yeah, you see me do it time after time. I'm like, okay, everybody stop, turn around, look at me. Let's go through this. You cannot do this job if you don't know where you're going to hit. Like, you cannot, I'm sorry, shooting, standing there, shooting a full body target from 17, 15, 25 yards takes very little skill. All you got to do is just hover in space. And you all know this. And I'm for the most part going to hit what I'm aiming at.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

As long as I'm not the gun's not so screwed up or the optic everything. But what happens is when I tell them you're going to shoot the shoulders and they're like, where is this practical? I'm like, if you go back to North Hollywood shootout there the guy is leaning over the car doing this, unloading on their, on the LA guys Caprice. Right. And one of the guys goes down to clear malfunction. I heard this guy actually say this. He goes, that's how he realized the guy, he can see the guy underneath the car. He rolls over and he shoots that guy in the ankles. That's really what stopped that guy from shooting, right? Part of it because he knew how to do his offset at 10, 12 meters away.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, underneath the car on the side of the gun. He was using a two iron size too, but he knew what to do.

[Derek]

Right.

[Matt]

I'm telling you right now, if I lay guys down and told them to do that, they could not do it. They couldn't make that shot. And because they're not confident in their skill set. So I don't care what bill, drill or what pack, timer, drill you want to use. I don't care. I don't care what, what match you shot in the weekend. If you do not know what your offset is or you cannot get your gun out of the holster without fumbling it, it makes no difference to me. Because you're shooting an open top holster and you're shooting a builder that this holster is just barely holding the gun in there. And you drew that. That's not real life. Yeah, and so I see that. And so when we talk about, you know, being accurate, like you need to be able to shoot what you're aiming at in any given scenario, not a given. Does that make sense? Yeah, and I see that. And so I'm all about people going out and having fun and shooting fast and doing all that. But understand what your job is, okay? That's not how you make your living doing that. If you want to do this job and you want to be in a tactical environment, you got to go in there, maybe aim small, miss smaller. You shoot whatever. One of our officers before I ever got here, you know, make a long story short, he's shooting at the, at the, at the SWAT team running out of the building, okay? There's a trailer with a truck in front of it. And he says, I know when he runs past the tongue of that trailer, he'll pop out and I'm just gonna pop him right there. So he knelt down and then when the guy turned, he shot him.

[Derek]

He goes, I should.

[Matt]

What'd you shoot? Because I get. I shot the middle of what he gave me, which was his butt cheek. I hit him in the hip, knocked him down. Guy rolled over, I stood up, I put one on the back of his neck and killed him. You know, he put around on him and I said, what was your thought? He goes, matt, you shoot the middle of what they give you. He goes, the beauty of it is, or the hard part of it rather, is you don't know what they're going to give you. So if it is a shoulder or a leg, you know, the LA guy at the foot or in this case, the hip, I need to be able to hold that. And I see guys routinely, I tell them, shoot this top right shoulder. 85% of the world is right handed. You're going to shoot your left, his right part of the shoulder. They miss because they don't know their offset. Because on their, on their home target, they know what their offset is. They know where to hit. But when you tell them to do it real live in space, they can't do it.

[Derek]

Yeah. And then you got guys with these high, high rise mounts that even make it skyscraper mounts.

[Matt]

Oh yeah.

[Derek]

Like now you're even higher than what you normally would because you just went from this because it looks really cool. And I gotta have this because I wear nods and I have goggle and I have, you know, my Avon mask on. So I don't really know how to bring the gun up to my eyes. So therefore I'm doing this and you're like, fuck, dude. Like you kind of understand your equipment and stuff, so. Yeah, I do. I do see that. And that's a bad thing. Guys, like, we have to understand, like you said, we have to be a master of what we're carrying. This is our gun, man. Same way with these red dot pistols, man. You're close up. There is a little bit of offset. It's not, not like your rifle, but there still is a little bit of stuff. So understanding that as well, you just can't be just. I don't really know. I just done this. I know that. And unfortunately there's teams, we've seen guys come out to these classes that man, just don't put the time and effort into it. If you're, if you're doing that, man, like, go get more training on your own. Go do some stuff, man.

[Gabe]

Yeah, I think mastering the fundamentals is one aspect. Understanding your tools and how to apply them in the application that you're using them is critically important.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Gabe]

If you're shooting matches and you think that's how reality is, you're mistaken. But shooting is shooting. I'm putting holes on where I want the holes to appear. I can apply that to the application I find myself in, but I need to disconnect what I'm doing. I'm practicing. I'm practicing to build up hard skills have an excess of hard skill so I can apply them to the situations that I find myself in. The problem will dictate what you need to provide. And you have to have those skills to be able to provide.

[Derek]

No, for sure.

[Gabe]

If you can't hit a 1 inch square at 7 yards, that's a skill set you need to have. It needs to be built up in practice.

[Derek]

Yeah, yeah, you definitely be able to do that. We talked about this earlier today Gabe, as far as we see guys come in and now we're turning the corner and we see only Graham know let's take this rifle, take it off our out of our shoulder and put it on top of our shoulder or not even have it connected to our to our body just so we can make this corner even though we don't need to do it. What's your thoughts on that man?

[Gabe]

So for me, maybe I'll be able to get one round off in that manner. Will it be accurate? Maybe depending on distance. But if I need to put aggressive rounds on target while I'm moving, I need to be connecting to my gun. So the longer that I'm disconnected from my gun, the longer it's going to take me to come up and actually shoot. If I'm trying to do things sooner and not force myself to do things faster, I need to build that connection and be prepared to shoot sooner. Right. So if I have to take my rifle completely off my connected to my body and put it back on, that's time that I cannot shoot. So I tried to keep it connected to my body as much as I can. If I'm required to do so based on confined space, then I will do so. But it needs to come back to be connected where I can shoot from.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Derek]

Dan, have you seen that more guys starting to do that the last few years as opposed to when you first started? I think that to me I've seen that more guys being disconnected from their gun because they see it because some dude on the on Instagram is doing that. In reality you're like dude, why the are you doing that? You're wasting time.

[Brandon]

Yeah. And I, I do and then you can get away with that in man mark arounds but at the end of the day, you know I, I'd say man we made the mistake early prior to the war is everything we had was two rounds and it's. That's not reality of it. If I can manage the recall of minimum of 10, it may not be 10, but there's no way with your buttstock disconnected your rifle disconnect from you that you're going to manage 10 round string on somebody. And I'm not saying it has to be 10, but if you have that mindset and we can shoot one round and I'm, I'm. Our mindset is this Dude, I'm putting 10 in this.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Until I get a reaction out of the target then I have enough time to put on the brakes. And that was. I was Getting that split time, it's. It's all for, hey, man, 1, 1.5, 1.6. But in reality, I, I, man, it takes the average human being, a professional athlete, about 0.20 to 0.30. And good dudes who are switched on and compete a lot and train a lot, about 0.2 to 0.30. So if I'm running 1.5, 0.15 splits in the house, I can put on the brakes if the dude falls.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

You know, that's where. That's where I get that. That aspect. Like, he hit on what JJ is like, you got to know your PR Speed, but in reality, somebody pops out. You're right. It's not a drill. I don't know what he's going to present with me.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

So we got to aim small and miss small, and that's accurate rounds, not just one or two.

[Matt]

Right.

[Brandon]

Maybe it's a shoulder. Yeah. Maybe it's just an ankle.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Gabe]

That's why he knows what it's going to be. No, it's surgical marksmanship. Right. It's not just a blast. In a way, we see these targets look like a shotgun blast on it. Like it's surgical marksmanship.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Gabe]

We're aiming small and we're hitting small spots.

[Derek]

No, for sure, because it goes back to where we talking about earlier. Just, you know, the, the driving fast with other people around or they, hey, I'm used to sprinting, and now you're asking me. The jog is the same thing. If we're training, hey, I can control that, that. That recall of the gun, and I'm accurate with shooting 10 rounds. But reality is, I only needed to shoot at 4. Dude, I'm ahead of the game. I mean, that's nothing.

[Brandon]

Exactly.

[Derek]

It's kind of like the whole CQB deal. If I'm shooting at 40 yards and I'm. I'm working on doubles or I'm doing bill drills at 40, and I'm in what I need to. Now when I go to 10 yards, I'm like, that's easy. I mean, I can. I can shoot you all day long. Because I have been training at distances, and now you're bringing me in to a, quote, CQB distance, man. That's. That's. That's easy for me.

[Gabe]

So we talked about always training harder than reality, trying to put yourself in training and practice at a harder level than what you would expect reality to be. But it's just pushing to try to be as perfect as you possibly can in training. So when things do occur in real life, you are prepared, you're confident in your response, you're confident your abilities. So you're not stressed out, you're not emotionally shooting. You're shooting based on the reaction of what you're seeing on the target or what it's presenting to you. And I don't have to shoot emotionally. I shoot under control.

[Derek]

No, I definitely agree because like I said, you don't know what, you don't know what skill you're going to need at that time. Is it going to be I got the whole body or something small. But if your package that you, that you have because of your training can, can do whatever you need to do, that's what, that's the kind of SWAT guy that you need to be, hey man, I can shoot because I have an ear hole or I have this whole fat ass, 350 pound guy that I'm just going to try to put it up a thoracic at the end of the day, that's what you should be able to be multifaceted in what you, what your weapon system can, can do. And know your offset, please guys, know what your offset is. On this one last thing we're going to talk about and this is one of these hot topics that man, it comes up every once in a while. I've had discussions with guys on Instagram, I've had discussions, discussion with guys in person. All of us here, we didn't get together and go, hey, we're just going to bring this up because we're the only four people in the whole world that believes this. It's because we've done our own training. We've been around really high quality training, professional trainers and stuff and we've done that. We do this for a living. It's going off safe, entering a room. Okay, some guys are going to listen to this go, well, we always do that. That's the way we do it. Okay, so we're going to discuss this and if you got any questions, you can email Matt Smith. No. You can DM him. No. So Matt, what do you, what are you seeing in law enforcement? What, why are you along with me, Gabe and Dan man saying that's not a smart way to, to train guys going off safe, entering a room.

[Matt]

I would say in the last say four or five years I've run across more people, you know, coming in and do training that either they're just, they're so easy to come off safe. They're just rolling it like, like it's not even a thing. Like to me that is a huge thing. Like, I mean when you, if you got to roll the safety off, like it, like it has to matter.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And so they're rolling it either and we thought about this off air. It's either. There's a couple things either they just don't know any better and they're just, just stupid. So I mean it's just whether it is either they, they, they believe they're so slow, they're so behind the curve and they don't have confidence in their skills. They're like, the only way I'm going to win and survive this is to try to cheat, try to get ahead of the game, which again is bad. Or I've seen these guys on the gram or whatever or they teach this because they're like, oh, you know, it's. You can have confidence in your skill set that you can do this. And, and for whatever reason they believe that is a better way of doing it. I'm here to tell you I have, I've never come across anybody in all, in all of my time and travels that I would think that I would trust this person to support me or back me up or go with me or to talk to the command or to anybody about what I just did that supports that. Like, it's like I've never met one person that I, that I would trust and believe in, have confidence in. Just says Matt. I think coming off safe like that is totally acceptable. I've never, never even heard him even say that. I think because it's so far fetched and the last few years to see the spike of people that are doing it and some of them are doing it willfully because they think that's the right thing to do. I just think it's crazy. And I'm like, dude, I'm here to tell you I know of nobody in the world that will support, you know, something like that goes bad. I mean, I said having had my share of time over here and confronting people and being involved in stuff, I never thought about doing that or thought it was a good way of doing it. And yet they look at me like I'm cr. I'm like, dude, I'm here to tell you you're going to eat that, like you're going to buy that whole thing and it's not going to be pleasant. And some of them are just like, well Matt was just agree to disagree. I'm like, okay dude, it's on you. But I'm here to Tell you that nobody with me and nobody in Dallas police department, I can tell you that, that I'm aware of has ever said that's a good idea.

[Derek]

No, I mean, us cops, man, we point our guns. I, I couldn't imagine how many people us three alone have pointed our guns at and never shot. Like just. It just happens, man. I mean, it's not bragging or anything. It just, that's just what it is. And man, there's too many things and it goes back to being sound and your fundamentals and shooting. If you're fundamentally sound in that you have the confidence in that, that, that finger off the trigger and then doing all that, it's not saving you any time on the military side, Dan, because a lot of times we hear, well, this is what the military is teaching. What's your perspective coming from the military side of that?

[Brandon]

That, that, that was never put out. Movies are movies. Yeah. It was a cool one liner, right? Yeah. You talk to anybody who ever worked over there. That's bullshit. Yeah, it's. And you're scrubbing your safety for one reason. Because you presented with a threat.

[Derek]

That's it.

[Brandon]

You go into a room and there's no threat. Your safety shouldn't be touched. Yeah, but I, I do agree with Matt. There's been a spike. I mean, you guys have been teaching with me.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

This is the first class I haven't heard. Except for one. Two dudes, day one. Hey, guys, your door. We're going hot on this one. Why'd you do that? Yeah, well, I know you put targets in there. No, no, no. I think it comes down to, you know, what we all talked about on before, this is the marksman side, is being confident with that thing. It's no faster. You're just asking for something bad to happen.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

You really are. I don't know. I mean, it's been a couple times I've. Not inside the house, but out on the exterior. Slings caught my trigger, a comms cord. Imagine that, things on fire. Just. There's so many bad things can happen. It's not the. I know in our schoolhouse, man, once, Once you decide to make an engagement out and there's two or three targets in the room, you're riding it out. But once you hit your point of domination and you move with that thing on fire, you get one warning. There's. There's no more warnings.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

One chance.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And that's to ingrain that in people's heads. Is. I do I. I don't know why it's so common. May maybe somebody's posting on Instagram.

[Derek]

I think that's a lot of it. I think that's a lot of it. And I think too, all of us and all four of us have trained with the most elite fighting unit in the world in the US Military, with the army guys. If those guys are not pushing it and they're telling you how up it is, who do you think you are? Some cop that has not near as much training, not near as much selecting process, not near as much time on the gun operational experience that they have. But you're going to say, well, I can do that. Dude, you're a fool, man. I'm sorry, man. I'll have that argument till I die. And I think all four of us will, will gladly say that. But like you said, at the end of the day, you're not going to find anybody that's going to come to your, to your defense in a court of law. Go. Yep. That's the way we train. And this is exactly the reason why you're not going to find it. So why are you doing it? It's not faster.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Gabe]

I think the question is to ask them what is your why right to everything we do. There's a pro and a con to it. And I'll tell you, your perceived pros are definitely outweighed by all the cons involved with you trying to come off safe. It doesn't give you an advantage at all. Puts you at a significant disadvantage or a mistake of fact shooting.

[Derek]

Right.

[Gabe]

So you're putting yourself in a very bad position to, to do something very, very wrong.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And sure, look at the increase in numbers and, and carvings, rifles and in law enforcement over the last seven, eight years. Oh yeah, like you're breeding bad habits. Like, I mean military included. Look what happened. The Glock first came out and people are walking around with their fingers on the triggers.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Don't got a safety, bro.

[Derek]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brandon]

Why, why do you. Yeah, why do you think some states make it mandatory? It's a 12 pound trigger.

[Derek]

Yeah. Yeah. Because they've messed it up and stuff. So. Yeah. And it goes by doing that, having.

[Brandon]

Your car being stored on fire. Eventually, if you're not familiar with it, your head hand's going to drift or something's going to drift forward there.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Derek]

I mean I've seen guys on, on Instagram go off safe and then finger or inside the, the, their trigger guard. I'm like, fuck, dude. Like all it takes is some bump. I mean this is a team sport. I Mean, I don't know.

[Brandon]

I don't know, Ron. I haven't got bumped.

[Derek]

Yeah, I mean it just is. It just is. So anything else you want to talk about when it regards to the whole marksmanship, firearms, anything like that? We miss anything?

[Gabe]

No, you can never be good enough. Continue to train, continue to push yourself.

[Dan]

Yep.

[Gabe]

You don't know where the bulls falls off, fall off until you push yourself.

[Derek]

So yeah, you never know what gamer you're going to come across. So you just learn how to shoot. Watching some videos and he's burning it down and you're like, oh, you know, I'm good.

[Matt]

Well, you need, you need to be realistic and look at yourself and go, where am I? Am I in my world right now? Am I a novice? Am I first to this or am I really. And they say that the better you get, the more lax you get, the more comfortable you get. Yeah, that's where mistakes happen. Like always try to re. Re imagine yourself going, I need to be better. I need to do this. Because that's where things sometimes get slippery because you think, well, I'm high speed, dude, complacency.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And I think that we talk about marks. Just the safety aspect of it is, is that you never be afraid to work on the basics in the fundamentals. That's usually what basic safety rules. Usually what fail.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And I think that's what goes along with that.

[Derek]

Yeah, no, I think that's a good way to wrap it up is we always have to, to work on the fundamentals, the principles of cqb. The principles of. The fundamentals of shooting. Because there's no high speed. I'm going to teach you this advanced deal. Yeah, we have advanced swat. We're just showing you building on the foundation of what you already have. Hey, HR is the pinnacle of CQB of all that. But you have to have the foundational skills to do a basic room entry before you get to hr. You're just doing it at a smoother, more efficient pace. But the principles are still the same. Same with shooting. If I'm going to shoot something really fast at a 1 inch circle as opposed to an 8 inch circle. The fundamental skills are all the same thing. I got to have my grip, I got to have my vision, I got to have trigger. That all has to be married together. It's just now I'm having to look at it because now this is a little bit small. So now my speed is going to be a little bit slower. But if I'm always pushing that, it's it's all going to come together because of my fucking foundational skills are solid. And guys, that's what you need to focus on. Putting my foundational skills all together to be very efficient with my movement, very efficient and fast with my, with my shooting, but to be able to understand when to apply this and when not to apply it. Okay.

[Brandon]

Hey, Brandon.

[Derek]

Yes?

[Brandon]

If I end it with a quick.

[Derek]

Story, man, go ahead, brother.

[Brandon]

I'm retired now. But you got Matt, Brandon and Gabe in front of me. They're part of something. And they're not doing this podcast and bringing in trainers and seeking outside knowledge for themselves. They're doing it for their team. They're part of. I'm part of nothing. But I'll tell you the story if you're listening. You should be training for your team and yourself. But the team comes first. The very first flat range I went to in the military, my boss was like, hey, we're shooting a competition. They were going to dinner. It was about 38 degrees and raining out. And they took a two hour dinner. I finished last and they brought me back a 90 calorie Starkist tuna packet. And I'm like, roger that, motherfuckers. And every Friday was admin day for us. Cleanup train up and we had to do a dry fire routine down in the loadout cage. And I was down there for an extra hour for about three weeks straight. And every week my boss would come in and be like, dan, why are you down here? I'm like, I want to be the best. I'm never losing again. He was the wrong answer. About the fourth week, he asked me, he goes, why are you still down here? And he goes, wrong answer. I said, well, what is the right answer? He goes, why don't you rephrase that? Roger, Sergeant. What is the right answer? He goes, I detect the sarcasm because you're a big dude, but I'll whoop your ass. He goes, the right answer is this. You're doing it for the team. Everybody wants to win, but you can't be the weakest link. The team depends on you to get better. And the team is only as strong at its weakest link. So I'm not saying you're the weakest link out there listening, but take training for yourselves, but for the team first, fellas.

[Derek]

Yeah, no, that's a great way because team CQB is a team sport. Yeah. In a individual, it's a team sport. So. All right, boys, I think that's a good wrap and into this, man. I think it's Everybody's probably ready to go to bed and tired, and I don't even know what time it is, so. Man, we appreciate y'all listening to our dumb asses, especially Redneck Matt over there. Hope y'all don't need interpretation and in translation and stuff, so.

[Brandon]

It's a crick.

[Derek]

Matt's giving me the finger, so. All right, boys and girls, till next time, y'all train hard.