TTPOA Train-Up's Series - "CQB Training Methodology " with Lead Faucet Tactical, Dan Brokos and Gabe Riverapisode

Summary

TTPOA Train-Up's Series - "CQB Training Methodology"

Release Date: February 24, 2025

In this insightful episode of The TTPOA Podcast, hosts Derek and Brandon delve deep into the intricacies of Close Quarters Battle (CQB) training methodologies with esteemed guests Matt from East Texas and Gabe Rivers of Lead Faucet Tactical. Aimed at SWAT officers, military personnel, and all first responders, the discussion offers valuable perspectives on effective training strategies, leadership, and the continuous pursuit of excellence in high-stakes environments.

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1. Introduction and Setting the Stage

The episode kicks off with the hosts introducing their guests, Matt and Gabe, establishing a camaraderie rooted in their East Texas backgrounds. Through light-hearted conversations about regional accents and vernacular, they create an engaging and relatable atmosphere for listeners.

Derek [00:14]: "We're going to clear something up real quick so everybody understands what we're doing."

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2. Defining "Dynamic" in Law Enforcement Operations

A central theme of the discussion is the concept of "dynamic" operations within law enforcement, particularly in CQB scenarios.

• Brandon’s Insight on Dynamics ([03:54]):

  Brandon articulates that "dynamic" signifies a deliberate and hastened pace in operations, contrasting it with the misconception of unbridled chaos.

  Brandon: “For us, dynamic is on the move. It is moving at a hastened pace… making a concentrated move to get this done quickly.”

• Gabe’s Clarification on Control ([06:34]):

  Gabe emphasizes that dynamic operations are meticulously controlled and planned, dispelling the myth that they equate to disorderly conduct.

  Gabe: “The misconception of dynamic is that it's out of control…but it is 100% in control of your actions.”

• Derek’s Perspective ([05:10]):

  Derek underscores the balance between deliberate planning and the flexibility to adapt in real-time, ensuring operations remain both swift and controlled.

  Derek: “We're deliberately planning... shifting gears when the situation calls for it.”

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3. Comprehensive Training Methodologies

The conversation transitions to effective training methodologies essential for mastering CQB.

• Matt’s Approach to Realistic Training ([07:24]):

  Matt advocates for training scenarios that exceed real-life complexities to better prepare officers mentally and physically.

  Matt: “Your training has to be harder than reality.”

  He highlights the evolution from simplistic abandoned buildings to more intricate setups with multiple targets and entry points, enhancing the realism and challenge of training exercises.

• Gabe’s Focus on Outcome-Based Training ([08:56]):

  Gabe discusses the importance of outcome-based training, where the end goals guide the breakdown of complex missions into manageable processes.

  Gabe: “We have to look at the process of how we're getting to that end state.”

  This methodology ensures that each training phase builds towards a comprehensive understanding and execution of full mission profiles.

• Brandon’s Emphasis on Consistency and Fundamentals ([11:08]):

  Brandon stresses the necessity of consistent, thematically structured training that reinforces basic skills while progressively introducing advanced tactics.

  Brandon: “Working on the basics is never a wasted day… we try to theme the month.”

  He advocates for overlapping training themes to ensure continuity and reinforce learning, allowing for adaptability when unforeseen circumstances arise.

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4. Structured Training Programs for New Recruits

Gabe outlines a robust training program designed to methodically prepare new team members for the demands of CQB operations.

• Gabe’s 26-Week Phased Program ([14:46]):

  The program comprises five distinct phases over 26 weeks, encompassing firearms training, movement techniques, tactical operations, specialized skills, and comprehensive testing.

  Gabe: “It's a five phase process... aiming to prepare new officers effectively.”

  This structured approach ensures that recruits develop foundational skills before progressing to more complex and specialized tasks, fostering a high level of proficiency and readiness.

• Implementation and Evaluation ([15:54]):

  The program includes rigorous evaluations and rotations among senior instructors, ensuring thorough training and continuous assessment of each recruit’s progress.

  Gabe: “It's a documented FTO program… ensuring thorough training.”

  This meticulous process aids in identifying strengths and areas for improvement, facilitating targeted development.

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5. Building and Adapting Training Facilities

Effective training environments are pivotal for realistic and challenging CQB exercises. Matt and Derek share their experiences and strategies for setting up versatile training facilities.

• Matt’s Recommendations on Facility Setup ([21:18]):

  Matt advises conducting thorough reconnaissance and utilizing readily available materials to construct functional training environments. He recounts his own experience of building a makeshift shoot house with limited resources.

  Matt: “If you own a facility, you gotta put work into it… Make it.”

• Derek’s Insights on Functionality and Modularity ([24:04]):

  Derek echoes the necessity for modular and multi-room setups that can simulate various scenarios and challenges, enhancing the training’s effectiveness.

  Derek: “You got to put some work into what you own… make it adaptable.”

  Both emphasize the importance of resourcefulness and adaptability in creating training spaces that mimic real-life complexities.

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6. Collaboration and Knowledge Sharing

The hosts and guests highlight the significance of inter-agency collaboration and the exchange of knowledge to enhance overall effectiveness in CQB operations.

• Brandon on Networking and Mutual Support ([35:21]):

  Brandon underscores the importance of working together and building networks to share resources and expertise.

  Brandon: “We have to work with each other and network.”

• Gabe’s Advocacy for Open Knowledge Sharing ([33:51]):

  Gabe emphasizes the value of learning from others’ experiences, including their successes and mistakes, to avoid redundant errors and foster continuous improvement.

  Gabe: “We should share knowledge learned… better that people learn from other people's mistakes.”

  This collaborative mindset promotes a culture of shared excellence and mutual growth.

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7. Continuous Improvement and Humility

The episode concludes with a powerful message on the importance of humility and the relentless pursuit of improvement.

• Gabe’s Call for Ongoing Striving ([36:17]):

  Gabe encourages officers to remain humble and continuously seek ways to enhance their skills and methodologies.

  Gabe: “You should constantly be trying to improve... never know until you're tested.”

• Brandon’s Emphasis on Mastering the Basics ([37:05]):

  Brandon draws parallels between his training approach and that of elite athletes, highlighting the critical role of mastering fundamental skills as the foundation for exceptional performance.

  Brandon: “If that dude can work on the basics, any of us can… same principles.”

  This philosophy reinforces the need for persistent dedication and a commitment to excellence.

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8. Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Derek wraps up the episode by reiterating the essential elements discussed:

• Effective Training Environments: Ensure your training facilities are functional, adaptable, and equipped with realistic elements to simulate real-life scenarios.

• Structured and Consistent Training Programs: Implement phased training programs that build upon fundamental skills and progressively introduce advanced tactics.

• Collaboration and Continuous Learning: Foster a culture of knowledge sharing and mutual support to enhance overall team proficiency and effectiveness.

• Commitment to Excellence: Maintain humility and a relentless drive for improvement to ensure readiness and proficiency in all CQB operations.

This episode of The TTPOA Podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of CQB training methodologies, blending practical insights with strategic approaches to equip first responders with the tools they need to excel in high-pressure environments. Whether you're part of a SWAT team, military unit, or any first responder group, the discussions and strategies presented provide valuable guidance for elevating your operational readiness and effectiveness.

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Notable Quotes:

• Brandon [03:54]: “For us, dynamic is on the move. It is moving at a hastened pace… making a concentrated move to get this done quickly.”

• Gabe [06:34]: “The misconception of dynamic is that it's out of control…but it is 100% in control of your actions.”

• Matt [07:24]: “Your training has to be harder than reality.”

• Gabe [08:56]: “We have to look at the process of how we're getting to that end state.”

• Brandon [11:08]: “Working on the basics is never a wasted day… we try to theme the month.”

• Gabe [14:46]: “It's a five phase process... aiming to prepare new officers effectively.”

• Matt [21:18]: “If you own a facility, you gotta put work into it… Make it.”

• Brandon [35:21]: “We have to work with each other and network.”

• Gabe [36:17]: “You should constantly be trying to improve... never know until you're tested.”

• Brandon [37:05]: “If that dude can work on the basics, any of us can… same principles.”

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the podcast episode, providing a clear and detailed account of the key discussions, insights, and actionable strategies shared by the hosts and their expert guests.

Transcript

[Derek]

Welcome to the TTPOA Podcast, a podcast.

[Brandon]

For SWAT officers, military and all first responders. We'll be talking training, tactics and leadership.

[Derek]

With the best subject matter experts around. Here are your hosts, Derek and Brandon. Well, howdy, folks. How y'all doing again? Back with you for another other train up in regards to cqb. So happy to have Matt on here because, man, he's more redneck than I sound, so. I love that, man. So thanks, man.

[Brandon]

Yeah, I'll do what I can.

[Derek]

Matt's of East Texas. Redneck. My family's from East Texas, but Matt is from East Texas. That's where you're born and raised, right?

[Brandon]

That's right.

[Derek]

You can. You can. You can hear it in his twang. Yeah. I think you said Walt the other on the last podcast. I'm like, I might have to translate for him because he says want, but he's saying won't. So especially California Gabe over there, he's like, what is he's this saying.

[Matt]

Is it a creek or a crick?

[Brandon]

If you fall into. It's a crick.

[Matt]

That's what I call it in Pennsylvania's a trick.

[Derek]

A crick. Yeah. Yeah.

[Brandon]

I think growing up in East Texas with a family that had been there, you know, for generations, there is a lingo that is all to their own.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And when you. When you grow up with that, of course, being out in the country, like I was, it's just like, you didn't even think twice about it. It's just part of the vernacular. And even when I moved off to college, like, even I went to Sam Houston State, which is. Is still. Is deeper East Texas, but it's not where I was like. Like it wasn't even a thing from, like, my accent or what I said.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

It was not until I really moved up here.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And started working in down Dallas, obviously, that is not East Texas. And I was just like, what do you mean? I sound odd or funny? I'm like, y'all just don't listen, right? Yeah, but. But I know going back home, I hear myself now.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

I'm like, I don't sound like I used to.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And like, if. And they sound almost odd to me now. Going back home, hearing those. Hearing some of the isms that come out of them, so. But I've been cityfied to some degree for 25 years up here, so.

[Derek]

Yeah, it. It is funny. Just Texas is so big, and, man, people from East Texas and people from West Texas, they're different. Like, their accents are different the way they Talk. The way they look at things, their terrain is way different.

[Brandon]

Well, you. If you're from the country and you have a twang and you say certain things, but then your mother is an English major who does not allow you to get away with certain things. So you're. It's a conflict of interest. Like, you want to talk. You talk like this. But then your mom says, no, we don't use that.

[Derek]

Yep.

[Brandon]

You don't say, where is it at? You don't use a preposition. Body questions, things like that. So that was a. Yep. I had to bridge the gap a.

[Derek]

Few times, for sure. My family, man, they were all redneck. So when I say ice and oil, there was no. Oh, yeah, no one ever corrected me on that until I got married. And she's like, no, it's not. Oh, it's oil. I'm like, that's still hard for me to say. Yeah.

[Gabe]

I didn't know what you were talking about.

[Brandon]

Right. I did. I knew exactly what you're doing.

[Derek]

Okay, so what are these dudes?

[Brandon]

Say this because you're not us.

[Derek]

So it's all good. Yeah. So we have Gabe back and of Dan back. Actually, they never left, so they're not even really back. But we're still in the backyard, honky tonk, having a good time. So we're gonna clear something up real quick. We ended the last podcast and we were talking about some dynamic speed and things like that. So let's clear that up so everybody understands what we're doing. Because I think that word gets thrown around and some guys don't understand it. Some guys just say it because it's a cool SWAT word to say. But, Matt, when you. When you hear dynamic in the law enforcement world, what does that. What does that mean to you?

[Brandon]

Well, for us, dynamic is on the move. It is. Is moving at a hastened pace, a faster pace. You're not running. You're not just going in there and bypassing things, but you are. It is a deliberate action that you're. And you're making a concentrated move to do to get this done and, you know, quickly. So for us, it is a. When you say dynamic, it is that, again, it's a departmental thing. In Dallas, we say, we're going to run this one dynamic. We're not sitting around. We're not calling out, like, we are being the aggressors. We're initiating the assault, the plan of action, so you can have a deliberate plan and execute it in many different ways. And so when you say we have a deliberate plan. That is your plan. That is we're going to do the A, B and C, 1, 2, 3 in this sequence. Okay. How you go about that is it could be dynamic. You could do a more methodical, slow search for us. And so deliberate is not what dynamic is. I think some people, yes, they confuse the two as being the same. For me, in my mind, a deliberate assault is a planned action. That is a plan that we're going from start to finish. How we get there is different. Now dynamic is moving at a hasten or quicken pace, clearing space on the move.

[Derek]

Right, Right. And then I think a lot of times guys have this understanding of the quote, word dynamic is 1985, you know, drug bus, where everybody just ran through the house and no one knew what the hell was going on. And it just. It was just hair on fire. And that's not what we mean. That's not anywhere close. Going back to deliberate. Hey, we're deliberately planning. We're knocking this guy's door window out because we think that's his bedroom. And we're getting a port and covering this. We're explosive breaching this door. We're also hitting a dual entry because we know we can hit this door from the back because whatever the case may be and we're doing. That's that part of the deliberate. But we're also using the quote dynamicness of we're just moving hastily through the house, but we could also shift gears, and all of a sudden now we're in fifth gear. We always said we hit the brakes and now we're in first gear for a second because just that situation called for us to slow down for a second because of whatever we're dealing with.

[Brandon]

Well, good teams can do that. You can power up, power down, throttle up throttle. What do you want to call it? And then you don't. Just because you slow down for a month doesn't mean you can't push back.

[Derek]

Exactly.

[Brandon]

And that's what good teams can do.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Gabe]

I would say an outside perspective, looking in, the misconception of dynamic is that it's out of control.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Gabe]

But it is 100% in control. You are making decisions on the fly, and you are 100% in control of your actions. It is not hair caught on fire running from point A to point.

[Brandon]

You're constantly assessing as you're pushing through.

[Derek]

Yeah, I agree. And I think that's important because I think administration, I think other people that really don't know what the hell we do take that word and they abuse it and there's other guys that just don't know how to apply that word. And I think that's what, that's why I want these, these train ups to be train ups. They're actually training where guys can listen to this and go, okay, I learned something new today, or now I know how to present this in a more educated way. Anything else to add to that? All right, we're going to move on. This one's going to be basically training methodologies. So Dan, you teach a lot, man, you're probably the, probably the most, busiest, probably company out there teaching cqb. So when we say training methodology, what does that mean to you? What do you think about that? How do you apply that when you teach teams and stuff like that?

[Matt]

Well, I think besides you know, teaching the bread and butter actions of the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, man, whatever you want to call it in there CQB process, you also like, you have to add training methodology because like, hey, I get this all the time. How'd you guys used to train?

[Brandon]

What would you do?

[Matt]

And always I think the first thing on training methodology, your training has to be harder than reality. And you guys know when you, when you, when you help me out day one, I put, hey, we're going to train. Unrealistic, fellas. Is it unrealistic? Probably, probably not. But this is a mistake we made prior to the war. And I say that because it's been years, but it really was, you know, we'd have abandoned building, do an FMP and have three or four targets in that thing because that's, we didn't know any better. And then we come back and, you know, we hit a mosque for the first time, come to an intersection. It's a circle with eight rooms. Never seen that before. And there's more than one dude in that room because most Middle Easterns, they, the whole family sleeps in the floor. So it really, really helped us in tune to especially in CQB and in marksmanship. It's like, man, if I make it easy, anybody can do that. But if I have five targets in the room, a non threat and three open doors, is it unrealistic? Maybe, maybe not. You can say what it is, but if I can skin that mentally, then the average household and the average building is nothing. So just the way I think you teach and set up your layout is part of the training methodology with it for that?

[Derek]

Yep. Okay, Gabe, what do you want to add to that?

[Matt]

Ma'am?

[Gabe]

So I would say outcome. You look at the outcome base what were you trying to get accomplished? Like full mission profile scenario, working from start to finish. That's what we're trying to get get to. And then what's the process to get me there? Right, you start working at the little things and breaking it down piece by piece. We have to look at it, at the process of how we're getting to that end state of that full profile mission that we're working up. We have to work on that, but we break that down. Hey, okay, what am I looking at? What type of structures are we dealing with? We have a center fed room, we have a corner fed room. We have to break things down to the process of getting us to what we're looking at the end state, which is that full mission profile from start to finish. This is how it's going to look. That's the end state we're trying to achieve. Now let's break that down to the process and start working on each process to get us there.

[Derek]

So kind of like micro. Yeah, doing like if you're doing shooting a drill, hey, we're going to break this down to micro. Like hey, here's this part of this part of the cqb. And then we're building and building and putting all together.

[Gabe]

Yeah. So like the two days that we just trained.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Gabe]

So we're, we're constantly building that foundation to get us to the next day and we can keep adding more, but we're looking for that end state on that last day where we're doing multiple breach, multiple team insertions on, on an hr. It's like, well that's not where we start day one. We've got to work from the process from day one to get us to that point for that.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And I think if you roll out your game plan to where they can say, hey, you know what, that four day course that they just put on for us, I should probably train like that if I take this back. You know, look at today, this afternoon. I isolated non threats, you isolated priorities of work and gave isolated closed doors before tomorrow. We throw in the whole gamut, but day one at the end I took video and isolated gaps between assaulters. Gabe isolated breach point procedures today and you isolated. Hey man, I'm not going to drop any angle when I'm dealing with, with I, I called, you know, priorities of work where there's a non threat, somebody that's still alive because there's a good possibility still going to be alive based on the stats.

[Derek]

I'm joking. Yeah, yeah, that is, that's a Whole nother podcast there. Matt, what do you, what do you think when you think of training methodologies and stuff?

[Brandon]

Well, again, I look at it from perspective that you have to recognize it's not going to happen overnight. And then you, whether it be a new guy or, you know, obviously that is part of it. Always turning over new guys. I was guys always coming over. But like whether. And I think what happens is, is guys are, I don't say they're hesitant, but like some of them just like, I don't want to go back to the basics and they're hesitant or they're reluctant or like, well, I've been there, done that. I'm like, I'm here to tell you right now, I've been very fortunate again to have some great guys that were here and gone out and trained with some guys from the military side and they go, Matt, working on the basics, working on the fundamentals is never a wasted day. And so way I look at it is, is for my, you know, and for my squad. What we try to do is we try to somewhat theme the month where like, okay, we're working. Not that you don't do other things, but like the, the end goal at the end of the month is try to do this amount of stuff working on this. So and I'll give you an example, like port and covers. Port and covers can be used on a call out, they can be used on a warrant, it can be used in hostage rescue. So if you're doing those three somewhat, those are kind of like the main themes that we use. You're going to do Portland covers every month. You're going to work on that. You're going to work on some kind of breaching, you're going to work on some kind of staging at the door. And all the things so I look at it is, is that if not that you have like, we just never have four or five days in a row to ever train. We're just too busy. But like, if we're going to train tomorrow and then we're going to train next week or two days this week and the day next week, I try to have them overlapping to some degree about what we're trying to accomplish. So whether it be staging out the door, working on the footwork, working on threshold assessment, because we're big into that, but we do it in a quickened manner. We're not standing there rolling the door all the way around, you know, and doing all that stuff like we're on the move. And so we try to have all that overlapping to some degree. So if. If Gabe misses on Tuesday at court or sick kid or whatever, he comes in on Wednesday, we can catch him up a little bit. But we're not abandoning what we did yesterday. We're going to work on that. Or if he misses the two days. Okay. But next week we're going to work on something again. He can somewhat catch up. We can help him. Granted, you don't get those hours back, but it's not like we're moving on to something new. And it's like, okay, well, y'all working on this the other day, and you were telling him about it, but now we're doing something totally different. I don't. I don't like that. I like to work on things to try to build upon them. This jumping around and doing this today and that tomorrow and this next week, I think that's. I don't. I don't agree with that. Yeah, I think that. And it's just back to. You gotta have. You gotta have a sound, you know, physical. Physical operations where you can handle the workload, being in gear and being able to see. You gotta work out, you gotta be. Stay fit to some degree.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

But you could be. To Dan's point, or you could be this great athlete. If you can't process a room or shoot, you're no good to me.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Or you'd be the greatest shooter in the world. But you keep going across thresholds and getting blasted. Like, I'm sorry, I can't use you, or you cannot be used here. So I think the training has to overlap from your physical part of it to your shooting and then to your tactics. And at one time or another, one will be more important than the other. And you overlap those, you build upon them, and then understand that today is not going to solve any problems. But by the end of the month, next week, next quarter, next year, this dude here will have done all this. And we've imprinted into him the way we want to do it, how we do it. And so a year from now, like, that guy is already. I think what happens is everybody wants to jump in there, grab a pack timer and shoot. Same standards that they see guys do on the gram. Like, first of all, it's not going to happen.

[Matt]

Okay.

[Brandon]

And if you do, you're probably doing something wrong or dangerous. And so don't be afraid to work on the basics to build that foundation, because in the long run, you will be much further ahead than those other guys.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Gabe]

So speaking on training methodologies, I'm not sure if I was talking to Dan or you today, but our team implemented a white team phase. So a 26 week training phase for new guys that come on the team.

[Derek]

Okay.

[Gabe]

And it's a five phase process. So they'll get four, four weeks on firearms training. Graduate if they pass that to movement training where they get introduced to our movement style and techniques.

[Derek]

Okay.

[Gabe]

Graduate to that to tactics. Now they're introduced to hr, Warrant Service and barricades. Next phase is moving into more specialized training and then the final phase is testing phases. So they'll get four wheeze of four weeks of being tested on all those phases. So it's a 26 week program. Our goal is obviously try to get new guys in and get them to a position where we can actually use them. And they're on probation for two years. But it's, we're trying to get them implemented. Rather than I have a containment guy or a scribe for a year and a half, we're trying to get them inserted to the problem.

[Derek]

So do you have like a cadre of guys that are teaching that?

[Gabe]

Yeah, so we have. It's more of the senior guys, but it gets rotated. We have three teams. So depending upon which training month it is, which team has that training month, select guys get pulled to work the white team. And it's, it's a documented FTO program. So there's evaluations written on them and stuff like that. So. Yeah, but it is, it's a phased program starting from the basics, moving up to more advanced for that.

[Derek]

So when you are teaching say the new guy, you know, there's whatever five new guys or whatever the case may be. And now it's the CQB portion of it. So what do y'all, what kind of like how are y'all starting off?

[Gabe]

Y'all just so very similar to how we are doing this four days together. So we're starting from the very basics and we start gradually moving. They'll have four weeks to work on that. So at the end of the four weeks we'll have a test very similar to what we do on our fourth day and just see where they fall out, right? Yeah, yeah.

[Derek]

What about y'all as far as new guys coming on and teaching them like just cqb.

[Brandon]

Yeah, well, again when they come in for us, they're at a six month probation for us. And inside that six months they will go through their like we're going to do here next month or hazardous warrant school, which is put on by us three days, two days of sims, you know, that kind of. Then the third day's live fire in our shootouts. And then they have a three day carbine school. That's for us. I don't, we don't really care whether we, what schools you've been to or goes. And by far the vast majority of our guys have been through the Dallas police patrol rifle. It's a good program. They do five days. It's a good, there's nothing with it, but it's not us.

[Derek]

Right.

[Brandon]

Again, we're, we're doing SPRs, we're doing, you know, it's just, it's a different world. And so we're like, okay, that's something we had to fight for. Because the command at the time was like, no, they don't need that. I was like, no, you don't like, no, they do. So they do that three day school and then they do that three day HR school. Now inside those, those, those are just kind of like those benchmarks they have to hit inside those six months. And that's usually the kind of way we plan it out. But like they have, whenever time allows to the range or to, you know, to the NAS to do their CQB stuff, range is always problematic because it's just so, so many people trying to shoot all the time. Yeah, you can't get out there hardly. So it's, it's a problem. So. But they have to shoot, you know, certain standards, you know, with going through their, you know, through their schools and everything. But for us is more about. They're having to demonstrate to us in training that they've achieved a certain level and they have to do, we have to do their weekly end vowels and all that similar to what you do. Not the same. But you know, everybody has their own way. But it's the ASLs of each squad does an evaluation of them as far as what they did during the week. Where are they, are they progressing? Or they, they need to work on this. And it's not uncommon for us to come in and say, hey, we've got to go do this particular assignment today. What are y'all doing today? Well, we're going to the range. Can I send this guy with you to do that? And so we'll cross, not cross train, but cross reference guys and bring them over and come hang out with us for the day or center guys with them to go do that because somebody's always busy doing something.

[Derek]

Yeah, so.

[Brandon]

But it's that first six months for us.

[Derek]

Yeah, yeah, no, and I think too, like this is based on CQB and the, the methodologies and training. But you hit on a point earlier. As far as, you know, the port and covers. Yeah, that's not CQB per se, but it is an element that we're implementing into cqb. Kind of like the breaching. I'm not a breacher, but breaching is part of the cqb, you know, portfolio of hey, we have to have good breaching. You know, that, that worked out as far as, hey, who's doing what? Where's this guy going? How's this guy getting at the door? You know, the procedures of breaching is a huge part of the CQB because if you can't get in places, you're fucked. So I think that's also part of that mechanism methodology of hey, your breachers have to come in together and you have to put it all together. It's a whole package that we're bringing. It's not just moving inside the structure. It's also the breaching side of that. It's the, you know, diversions of things like that. So I think also guys, don't forget that part of the training with the cqb. There's, there's a lot to put together. Especially like for Dan. You're coming in, you're teaching, hey, here's the movement in the house and things like that. Because man, you could spend another week of just breaching procedures in the house and all that kind of stuff. With shotguns or manual tools, explosives. I mean there is a litany of stuff. And that's why you just can't go to one school and go, hey, I'm the fucking guy now and I know it all. Because there's just way too much shit to do. There's things, I'm like, man, we haven't done this a while, I got to think about this. Or you ask other guys, hey, we're doing it this way, right? This, this and this. Just to check yourself because. And there's just some things you don't get a lot of work on, especially as a part time team.

[Gabe]

Yeah, when it comes to cqb, you never get, and personally, you don't get emotionally attached to anything you're doing. Because if there's something out there that's better, I'll be the first one to take and try to adopt it. If it's better for us. Yeah, yeah, just keep an open mind, you know what I mean? Like there's, I came from a background of, of doing one methodology of CQB and then we transferred over to something else and we saw a lot of pushback of dudes that were feet stuck in the mud. And it's like, no, this is the way. Because I said so.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Gabe]

And they didn't have open minds to learn something new. Yeah. But once you do learn a new system, it's like, well, this makes it actually a lot easier for me to free my mind to actually to problem solve and not be thinking about, oh, where am I going? Where do I need to stand? Yeah, like that should be so trained into you that it's just naturally occurring.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

You know what?

[Derek]

We're doing all right. Dan, one of the problems, man, I know that you dealt with because you travel so much, teaching is training venues. So you go to places and guys will tell you, man, we, we train here, we do this and you go there. Like there's no furniture, there's nothing. So if you're giving advice to teams on how to set up a training venue, what would, what would that be?

[Matt]

Do recon first. I say that seriously. But literally, heck, when I first started this business, I didn't want to touch it because the, there's some other companies out there that the price tag was like, yeah, hey, I need this venue and it's 30 grand. And I didn't want to touch it because I was so used to, I'd say, being spoiled, but having 140 acres with 6, 7, 8 chute houses and free roaming things. And then I said, you know what, I'm going to do this because it's really a passion of mine. And probably one of the first places I went. I'm not going to mention the state, Arkansas. Nothing against the guys. Nothing against the guys, but it was a tire house of like four rooms and four by four, like an old school shoot house. And I'm like, man, this, this is it. And he's like, yeah, man, we do CQB all the time. I said, I got 20 dudes, bro. Yeah, it ain't, it ain't happening. And I learned this from the military. When we deployed the places like that, there was no shoot houses. We had one in a couple areas when we were working with some indigenous forces that we built. But we'd go to Home Depot and we'd always bring the old serial killer kit with us. And it was funny I say that because I constructed a 10 room set in about two hours on one of my first CQB classes using barrels from the range, those blue barrels and just hanging tarps with zip ties and A staple gun. And I was really at Lowe's and I had 10 rolls of plastic sheeting, zip ties, duct tape and X acto knife. And this, this old lady was like this, you know there's cameras on you. I'm like, I know. She's like, this is very odd. I'm like, yeah, it's a serial killer kit. And she goes, you're using your debit card. I said, they won't catch me. And she didn't even stare me in the eyes. But Gabe, Brandon, you've been to places with me. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not gonna bust anybody out. But some of the time is I really think and we did it on our own in the military is hey man, if you own a facility, you got to put work into it.

[Derek]

Yes, you do.

[Matt]

I'll mention Dallas right here. It's the first time I'd been that facility. It was hand built by those dudes. And not everything is training and I hear this all the time. Well, we just got this abandoned building. It was a great building. It was, it was framed. And then even think about wrapping tarps on it. I mean you got what you got to train with and nobody's going to train for you. I think for the most part on, on and in the military side, I run to too dudes that show me the shoot houses. I'm like, why don't you guys spend two days out here before, before next time I come down and hang some tarps and put some work into it, you could, you could knock out an eight room set pretty good.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I think overall is the places in Texas are phenomenal compared to other some parts of the country. But word of advice is, is man make it. You don't have to be elaborate, but put some work into what you own.

[Derek]

Yeah, no, for sure. I think on my almost 20 years on our team, well, we moved six times and all six times we've had to tear shit down, rebuild it. And we were talking about earlier with Matt and Gabe where it started. Like you got to have guys on your team that are good carpenters that can build some shit. Because most SWAT guys man, they can't even get a fucking straight line. So when you have those guys and you find out, oh yeah man, I used to be a, you know, repair guy and did carpentry. I'm like, oh shit man, you're on the team. I don't care if you can't think can build. Dude, you're our builder because that is important, man. You gotta have these Facilities and, and if you don't, then you better beg bar on steel and make friends with other people that can do that. So when you look at a place to build, are you looking for something modular? Especially if you can build like with plywood and stuff. Like something that's like, hey, we can do multi room set change a few things, move movable walls, temporary or several different doors, we can cover them up, we can open them up, things like that. Because I see guys that build these things, it's like, well, shit man, there's only like three, two ways to get in this whole damn thing.

[Matt]

Yeah. Like I'll be honest, with what you guys got going at your facilities, you wouldn't be surprised on now Gabe's got a lot of money. He's got nice facilities too. And then using a lot of agencies so they don't have to. I mean we've, we've been in colleges over there and mean, Gabe has, has built some stuff. But at the end I show so many pictures of how your guys's facilities are built in Dallas and Garland. I'm like, if you guys are going to do something, do this. And it's not hard. No, it's really not hard. You just got to put in the work. And it's mobile. It don't. And live ball shoot houses are nice, but nobody has the damn money for that.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And they're not that modular. Most of our stuff for the military, live ball shoot houses, yes, that's bread and that's bread and butter. But at the end of the day, you know, it's man marker facilities that are cheaper to build and they're more mobile for you.

[Derek]

Yeah. You got anything on that, Matt?

[Brandon]

Again, very fortunate. You know, when you, when you work for a large agency, it's had, it's different perspective. But when you train, which by far, almost everybody's smaller than us, but as a whole one you appreciate what you have is everybody grabs about their own department like no different here. But I've, you know, I've got to be in that shoot house, live fire, a knife put on, you know, as a new guy put on or was involved in being, you know, as a student, hours and hours and hours in that thing. And now look now going back over the last few years, putting on training, I try to tell those guys, be thankful that you get to do this because every time I ask the class who in here has never shot live fire in the shoot house, man, the hands that go up, I'm like, how long you been on swat? Seven, eight years, I'm like, again, all I can do is look at it from my perspective. That is a hard way to make a living. To go do this job and never have trained that. I just can't even. I can't imagine, like, okay, Matt, you're live now. You're going to go out to this world. And yet you've never trained it to that level. Because it is, obviously it's the element of safety is involved to the point where it is not the same in the sense. But you know, before we have suppressors, when you're shooting those, you know, 10 half inch colt, you know, those we all had that won't want. Because at the, you know, the walls are, you know that. But man, I mean, you cut your teeth in there as a new guy and you're demonstrating. I can do it safely, I can do it with these guys at speed. It was huge. And I don't blame guys that don't have the ability because let's be honest, most agencies are never ever going to have a shootout. But challenge yourself to go out and try it. Go, you know, come here, go somewhere. So many guys are just like, no, we never do it. This Guy's been here 20 years, he's never done it. So I'm not going to do it.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And so I've tried to do that. Back to then, you had the Sims building where we have nas. I mean, for years we had nothing. When I first came on, we had left field and it was great. And I get my first two or three years we were doing all kinds of stuff and then we lost it. And that's how I really got to know you guys was coming over doing stuff with, I mean, the hours that we spent together at 52.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Oh, my God, that was a lot. I mean, hundreds and hundreds of hours. But, you know, one, we. We had a command that allowed us come over there and do stuff with you guys and do all that. And I mean, there are guys that, from the day they got here, they were in Garland doing stuff with you guys up until the last couple of years when we got to nas.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

So it matters.

[Derek]

And now we're, now we're having to use y'all because ours is being built.

[Brandon]

It's real hard not to say no, we're busy. Y'all can't. No, I am, I am glad to offer the opportunity back to you guys because God knows we used you guys. But again, that's the biggest thing here. We got to be able to help each other out because it's even big city Dallas. We do not have everything.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

We got to work with each other and network.

[Derek]

Yeah. And I think to 2, 2 points that, that I'm just thinking of. So when you're talking about the live fire shootouts, man, guys, if you don't have one, which mostly I don't, you can do this stuff on a flat range. You can build stuff. You can build walls, you can build tarps, you can do things and do shit on a live range and shoot right next to each other. Shoot 1 meter off. Whatever your SOPs are, things like that. You can still do entries into a flat range. It's just you got to be creative with it and do that. Don't let your department, what they quote are not doing for you, discourage you from doing stuff. Okay. You can do that. The other thing I was thinking of, and fuck, I forgot it, man, it was on the tip of my tongue.

[Gabe]

Just to piggyback on what Matt was saying in regards to training live ball ball as well as simulations, all, both are very important. Simulation force on force, great. But doing it live ball as well is important because of the marksmanship aspect of it. Shooting your, your rifle live fire is different than shooting a simunition rifle that has no recoil impulse. So you have to, in my opinion, experience doing it live ball as well. And you should be comfortable doing so and getting very lackadaisical shooting sims and getting in the mindset of playing paintball, doing it live fire, it's. It's real life. This is serious, it's important. There are safety aspects to it. But I highly recommend if you're doing 100% just simulation, you should also enforce live fire as well.

[Brandon]

No, Well, I just jump on that. So if you go in and do training in your sims, weapons empty, you're just working on footwork, working on stuff. You'll see, you'll see a comfort factor in people. They're dialed down a little bit, right?

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Then I say, okay, I'm putting Keith back there. And everybody knows Keith with his MP5 or whatever, he has full auto and it's force on force. They ratchet up because the game has changed because they know there's pain and there's consequences. And then when you say we're going to be live firing the shootouts, it's even to a higher point, even though you're not necessarily being shot at. But to your point, what you're saying, you're now shooting full life fire like you're shooting 5.56 inside there. You're not going to be able to shoot that fast. You're not going to come up and do your point shooting, because it's just different.

[Gabe]

There's consequences.

[Brandon]

Absolutely, there's consequences. And then with us, it's different than I'm coming in the number 9th guy behind the team in Sims, because you're relatively safe versus now it's life, fire. I'm behind the two of you. It's. For us, we never let more than two go in front of an instructor going through the room. Now, I can push from one room to the next once you've done. But, like, you have one of us breathing down your neck, not to mention all the guys up top looking down on you. And so they know they're in that fishbowl, everybody. And so to me, you, like, again, coming from Dallas, I do not know how guys do. Don't do that. And having to go out and do it live. Because by the time I ever made my first warrant live entry, I had done that hundreds and hundreds of times in front of guys where. And that's where they felt like, hey, that guy's got confidence. Like, I've seen him in Sims. I've seen him on the flat range, and I've seen him live far in the shootouts. Like, he has achieved a certain level of mastery, if you want to call that, or expectations, where I'm like, he's good to go.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And so I think if that is a big, big thing for us. And again, we have guys that come to us just for that class. So they can say, I've shot liver in a shootout.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

You know, and I applaud them from that.

[Derek]

No, for sure.

[Brandon]

I mean, I've had guys that paid their own money. I'm like, dude, I will try to help you out any chance I can, because those dudes.

[Derek]

So that's the first place we met. Dan was at Dallas's shootout. That's the first time we met and stuff. That was the other thing that I was talking about, training methodology. I think this is important, and I think this is one of those ones where ego. You have to put your ego aside and you have to not be the big fish in your small pond, is you have to have other people come in, evaluate you. You have to train with other teams. You have to get outside and look at what's going on. I think it's important to bring guys into your team to test you, to evaluate you. We've done it over the years, many, many times. Either an outside instructor or guys from other teams that have come in and go, hey, like, I hit you up the other day, Matt, hey, can you do this for us to. Just to say, hey, man, here's what I see. Here's what you need to work on. Here's what you're doing. Good. Because we all need those checks. And at the end of the day, you got to put ego aside, and I think that's a huge thing, because I know teams that never do that, and I think you're doing yourself a disservice. Yeah.

[Gabe]

Speaking on that subject, I think I Met Matt in 2018. Mark Lang introduced me, and we brought him out to California for a symposium that we're putting on. He gave us a debrief of a hostage rescue they had.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Gabe]

And I think it's critically important that we share knowledge from experience gained, whether good or bad, to teams around us. And. And everybody's an open book. Right. Nobody's perfect. We all have different operations. We all deal with different things, but we should share knowledge learned. I'd rather learn from mistakes made from another team than us having to force and make those mistakes ourself. Right.

[Derek]

Yep.

[Gabe]

So things happen. It's better that people learn from. From other people's mistakes and that our own more successes as well.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Well, I can say going out there to California and they. They walk up and they go, matt, you're leading off. You know, it was, you know, which I didn't mind, but at the same time, I'm like. Like, I hope the PowerPoint works. That's my first concern. I hope that damn thing actually works. So. But they. They're very, you know, gracious and, you know, took care of me and everything. But I got out there and it was a. It was a. It was a fabulous high school that we were at that thing. I was in Irvine, I believe it was awesome. And of course, you know, I know to some people, we look like the wild, wild west out here, you know, even though we're east, y'all, because this is Texas, it's a bigger thing.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

I had so many guys come up to me after because we. For. For the guys know, we did do some. We did two debriefs. I let off with ours, and LA did one of theirs, and then we broke out, went out to the desert, to the training, and it was, you know, each team did their runs and all that, and in between runs, just everybody. I mean, there was a lot of SoCal teams there, guys from up north, some Canada guys. I mean, different people ever, and they Just all want to come up and just hit you up. Hey, what do y'all do? What is this? And it was great. And it wasn't like, hey, you know, we're. You know, we're doing everything wrong. They just want to compare notes.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And I. And I took things away from that, too. And so I had made a lot of contacts that time. Matter of fact, I got invited back out by L. A, the D team guys this year. I went out there in July and saw those guys and the SDB guys held this year. Same thing. Couple of guys remember me from few years ago. Same thing. Hey, what's different? What are you doing?

[Derek]

How.

[Brandon]

This, that. That kind of thing. They have a great facility. I'm envious. Their spot out there.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

But you. It's. I think it's not like you're happy to see other people struggle just like you do, you know, but what it does is, is it shows that, hey, we are all facing the same issues. California and Texas, let me contrast in different states in a lot of ways. There's no question. But at the same time, you're still responsible going in and solve problems for your crew. Right. And that's what you have to do. And those guys have been awesome out there. And to reach out and dive me out a couple times. I couldn't make it last year, but it's been great. And I know we've discussed trying to do something like that maybe in the future for us. So.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Again, I do appreciate you guys for having me out there. It was great.

[Derek]

Yeah. And I think that just goes back to being a student of the craft that you're doing. And that's the SWAT man, woman. Whatever you. Whatever you are. But being a true craftsman and taking all the knowledge and continue to build upon that and continue to push yourself, because if you're not. If you're just content with, man, I work for this team, and this is what I know. And I don't really. Whatever you're. You're a fool.

[Gabe]

It's the mindset of we're good enough.

[Derek]

What.

[Gabe]

What is really good enough? You don't know until you're finally tested.

[Derek]

No, you don't.

[Gabe]

So, yeah, you're constantly trying to improve.

[Derek]

Nope. You don't even.

[Gabe]

Even the best in the world. Whatever sport or profession it is, they're constantly striving to be better. You should be the same.

[Derek]

You should be doing the same thing.

[Brandon]

Well, there's a video and Mike Trout plays with angels. Probably one of the most generational type talents in the last few years, and they were doing interview with him. He's out there doing his bp, and obviously, this guy can hit a ball like he knows what he's doing, and he's out there taking fielding balls, hitting BP and doing this. I was listening to his interview. He's like, this is where it's done. This guy makes a. I mean, takes a ton of money. Obviously, he is at one of the pinnacle of what he does in major league in the world. And there he is after working on the basics.

[Derek]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

You know, and I just think if that dude can work on the bases, any of us can. So either different job, but same principles.

[Derek]

Yeah, yeah. No, for sure. So. All right. Anything else to add to all this stuff, man? All right, good deal. So if you have a facility, make sure that you got some furniture in there, you got some dead spaces you can move around. You got some multiple entry points and things like that. If you just have a training facility and there is nothing in there besides four walls, you. You're up. I'm sorry. You better get some in there and get some dead space. Cut some walls out. Do something. Because anybody can clear a. A room that. With nothing in there. That's no challenge. My freaking granddaughter can do that, so. All right, guys. Well, on that note, we're gonna end it, and we'll start the other one here in a second after we probably go to the restroom and get something to drink, so. All right, y'all continue to Trey heart out there, guys.