TTPOA Train-Up's Series - "Principles of CQB" with Lead Faucet Tactical, Dan Brokos and Gabe Rivera

Summary

The TTPOA Podcast: Principles of CQB – A Comprehensive Summary

Episode: TTPOA Train-Up's Series - "Principles of CQB"
Hosts: Brandon, Matt Smith
Guests: Dan Brokos (Lead Faucet Tactical), Gabe Rivera
Release Date: February 9, 2025

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1. Introduction and Guest Introduction

The episode kicks off with Brandon introducing Matt Smith as the new co-host, replacing previous hosts Derek and Graham. [00:14] Brandon warmly welcomes Matt, highlighting his extensive experience and close proximity, which facilitates collaboration:

“Matt Smith works with Dallas SWAT and he lives close to me, so it’s really good because we live in the same town.” [00:40]

2. Backgrounds of the Guests

Matt Smith provides an overview of his career in law enforcement:

“My name is Matt Smith, Dallas PD. I’m a senior corporal with them. I’ve been on the department for over 25 years, and I’ve been in SWAT for over 19 of those.” [02:05]

Dan Brokos delves into his military background and transition to tactical training:

“I spent 27 years in the military, 21 of those in the SF soft community. I retired, started Lead Faucet Tactical, and I think this is my sixth or seventh year doing this.” [05:10]

Gabe Rivera shares his extensive experience in law enforcement and tactical training:

“My name is Gabe Rivera. Been in law enforcement for the last 17 years. 13 of those years have been on our SWAT team. I’m on our full-time element...” [04:44]

3. Defining the Principles of CQB

The core of the discussion revolves around the Principles of Close Quarters Battle (CQB), defined by Dan Brokos as:

“Surprise, speed, and violence of action. All three of them and adjust to that.” [10:27]

Gabe Rivera concurs, emphasizing the foundational nature of these principles:

“Surprise, speed, and violence of action.” [10:42]

Matt Smith expands on these principles, advocating for adaptability and situational assessment:

“CQB is not just a dynamic warrant service or an HR. It’s about being able to clear space on the move... having an ability to adjust on the fly...” [10:49]

4. Exploring the Principles

a. Speed

Speed in CQB transcends mere physical movement; it incorporates cognitive processing and decision-making efficiency.

• Dan Brokos highlights the balance between rapid action and thoughtful assessment:

  “Speed is your security... you cannot run your headlights. You need to start slow to process the room.” [13:00]

• Gabe Rivera emphasizes efficiency in maneuvering and threat elimination:

  “It’s not necessarily in general foot speed, but it’s the efficiency and how you’re processing the room.” [14:38]

• Matt Smith underscores the importance of movement efficiency and confidence built through repetition:

  “Efficiency of your moving... reps build confidence. When you have confidence, you move more efficiently.” [15:39]

b. Surprise

Surprise is integral to gaining the upper hand in CQB, achieved through strategic planning and unexpected tactics.

• Dan Brokos associates surprise with tactical execution:

  “Element of surprise as well... multiple breach points, diversionary devices, having flashbangs...” [29:00]

• Gabe Rivera discusses catching adversaries off-guard based on their patterns of life:

  “Pattern of life of who we’re going after. Are they asleep? Are they being woken up with flashbangs?” [30:24]

• Matt Smith shares an anecdote illustrating effective use of surprise:

  “We caught him sleeping... had four SWAT guys in his room. That was the ultimate surprise.” [32:25]

c. Violence of Action

This principle revolves around maintaining initiative and assertiveness, ensuring control over the engagement.

• Gabe Rivera defines it as:

  “Maintaining initiative... inserting my will on my adversary.” [21:37]

• Matt Smith interprets it as assertiveness in operations:

  “We want them to recognize immediately, like there’s no chance of me winning. This is over.” [22:21]

• Brandon adds the aspect of intimidating presence:

  “You’re coming in someone’s house with machine guns, looking scary... that’s part of violence of action.” [23:58]

5. Practical Applications and Training

The guests discuss the practicalities of applying these principles through rigorous training and adaptability.

• Dan Brokos emphasizes continuous learning and adaptation:

  “Law enforcement instructors like Gabe and yourself help keep me relevant.” [09:24]

• Matt Smith advocates for dynamic and flexible training over rigid protocols:

  “We’re not range robots. You have to assess and prioritize threats dynamically.” [12:37]

• Gabe Rivera reinforces the necessity of critical thinking and adaptability:

  “CQB’s a thinking man’s game. You have to think yourself through the problem.” [19:09]

6. Challenges in Training and Application

The discussion addresses common challenges faced in CQB training and operations, particularly the over-reliance on pre-planned tactics and lack of adaptability.

• Matt Smith critiques the tendency to depend on rigid flight paths:

  “People want to be told where to go... they need to start thinking themselves.” [15:39]

• Dan Brokos points out the pitfalls of seeking an “easy button”:

  “Everyone’s looking for that easy button, but that’s not how it is.” [19:10]

• Brandon shares frustrations with inflexible training approaches:

  “When you have a floor plan and it doesn’t match reality, it causes issues in real operations.” [18:17]

7. Examples and Anecdotes

Real-world scenarios and personal experiences illustrate the principles in action, highlighting their effectiveness and the importance of seamless teamwork.

• Matt Smith recounts a successful operation where surprise played a pivotal role:

  “He was caught sleeping, didn’t know we were there... four SWAT guys in his room.” [32:25]

• Dan Brokos shares a tactical approach to overwhelming a target:

  “We’re hunting, not being hunted. We impose our will quickly.” [26:43]

8. Conclusion

Brandon wraps up the episode by reiterating the interconnectedness of the CQB principles and the necessity of a holistic approach. He emphasizes that effective CQB requires a balance of speed, surprise, and assertive action, all underpinned by continuous training and adaptability.

“These principles are all intermingled and you can’t take one of them out without affecting the other... sound CQB is putting all this together.” [34:22]

Brandon encourages listeners to evaluate their own CQB practices, ensuring they embody all the discussed principles to enhance operational effectiveness.

“If you’re not using these principles in your CQB, then you probably need to reevaluate some stuff.” [37:04]

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Notable Quotes with Attribution and Timestamps

• Brandon [00:40]: “Matt Smith works with Dallas SWAT and he lives close to me, so it’s really good because we live in the same town.”

• Matt Smith [02:05]: “I’ve been on the department for over 25 years, and I’ve been in SWAT for over 19 of those.”

• Dan Brokos [10:27]: “Surprise, speed, and violence of action. All three of them and adjust to that.”

• Gabe Rivera [14:38]: “It’s the efficiency and how you’re processing the room.”

• Matt Smith [15:39]: “Efficiency of your moving... reps build confidence.”

• Gabe Rivera [21:37]: “Maintaining initiative... inserting my will on my adversary.”

• Brandon [37:04]: “If you’re not using these principles in your CQB, then you probably need to reevaluate some stuff.”

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Final Thoughts

"The TTPOA Podcast" episode on the "Principles of CQB" delivers an in-depth exploration of essential CQB strategies through the combined expertise of seasoned professionals. By dissecting speed, surprise, and violence of action, and emphasizing the importance of adaptability and critical thinking, the hosts provide valuable insights for SWAT teams and first responders aiming to enhance their operational effectiveness. Whether you're a seasoned officer or new to CQB, this episode offers practical advice and thought-provoking discussions to refine your tactical approach.

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Remember to Train Hard and Stay Safe!

Transcript

[Brandon]

Welcome to the TTP08 podcast, a podcast.

[Matt Smith]

For SWAT officers, military and all first responders. We'll be talking training, tactics and leadership.

[Brandon]

With the best subject matter experts around. Here are your hosts, Matt, Derek, and Brandon. All right, folks, welcome to another TTPOA Train up edition. This one's going to be about the principles of cqb. And I'll hit this music here so y'all can hear me better. All right, well, welcome. All right, we got a special person joining us now. He's going to be our new co host. I've been toing this for a while, so now he's finally here. He's going to be way better than Derek was, and that's not hard to do. No offense to you, Matt. And then Graham. I won't dog on Graham very much, but he quit pretty quick. He couldn't handle the stress of this job. So once I found out Graham. Graham was going to be gone, man, the first person I thought of is Matt Smith. So Matt Smith works with Dallas SWAT and he lives close to me, so it's really good because we live in the same town. So, Matt, man, welcome to the podcast, man. Glad to have you.

[Matt Smith]

Oh, thanks for having me. Looking forward to it. Glad I live in the same town.

[Brandon]

Yes.

[Matt Smith]

Worked out for everybody.

[Brandon]

Yes, it does. Derek lived an hour away and Graham lived close. But Matt has the highest rated podcast to this date with our DY cqb why Dynamic is way better than all the other that we do. So that was a very big podcast for us because it hit a critical time when some guys were throwing out some stuff about Dynamic. You shouldn't do it this way. Don't do this. And so you had a lot of hot sports opinions and we got on it and we. We defended what we believe is a good way of doing things and why we're doing that. So, Matt, real quick, just introduce yourself that way. Audience knows who my. My co host is, man.

[Matt Smith]

Yeah. Again, thanks for having me. Glad to be part of this. Now, my name is Matt Smith, Dallas pd. I'm a senior corporal with them. I've been on the department for over 25 years, and I've been in SWAT for over 19 of those.

[Brandon]

All right, very busy team Dallas. Probably one of the busiest in the. In the nation. So, man, Matt's got a lot of stuff juggling. He, man, he always helps me out. I appreciate all the help you do for ttpoa. Y'all run YALLS HR class every year. Y'all about to do a hazardous warrant school. So man, anytime I ask y'all to help out, you're always helping out with advanced swat, basic swat. I think that's a good thing because you're getting a lot of different perspectives from teams in the Metroplex and I think that's good. It's not just one person saying, hey, this is the only way to do things. There's a lot of just knowledge base and so that's a good thing.

[Matt Smith]

Yeah, very fortunate. A lot of different guys on the team, you know, larger team. A lot of different years of experience. Everything from the new guys up to, you know, some of them over 20 years. Yeah, so you have a wide, you know, variation of training there. And that was going on when I got there. People wanted to help out to be training because you realize in Dallas you're very fortunate to have the pace and the workload that you have. So you try to pass that on. Yeah, guys were doing that when I got here. I'm glad to be part of it. Dale and guys will be doing it long after we're all gone, so.

[Brandon]

And that's a good thing.

[Matt Smith]

Part of it is paying it forward.

[Brandon]

Yeah, it's a good thing. And I think there's a really tight knit group in the Dallas area as far as SWAT teams, as far as the camaraderie. There's a lot of training that we do together and then there's a lot of ops that we've done together over the years and stuff. So that's, that's, that's a, a positive because I think there's some guys that you talk to around the country and they're like, fuck those teams. We don't like them. We don't like this. We don't do anything. And I think that's only, it only hurts the teams in the long run. And I think the organizations only benefits from that of having all these teams on the same page as far as wanting to cooperate because y'all have used our facility. Hell, we're using Yalls facility right now for training. So that's, that's a good thing and stuff. So. All right, man. Well, we're here with some guys who do some cqb. Dan Brocos. How are you doing, man? Good.

[Dan Brokos]

How are you?

[Brandon]

Good. It's been a long time since I've seen you, huh?

[Dan Brokos]

It has.

[Brandon]

Last two days I spent a lot of time with you. So currently right now Dan's teaching for the TTOA in Region seven, his CQB instructor class. So four day class. And then to my right is the lovely Gabe, how are you? How are you doing, man? Good, can't hear you very well.

[Gabe Rivera]

Check, check, check. Is it off?

[Brandon]

Let's see. Is that better?

[Gabe Rivera]

Check, check, check There.

[Brandon]

There we go. There we go. So, Gabe, tell us about you, man.

[Gabe Rivera]

My name is Gabe Rivera. Been in law enforcement for the last 17 years. 13 of those years have been on our SWAT team. I'm on our full time element. One of our primary instructors in our SWAT school, cqb. I have a company called Mindset Tactical Solutions, doing that for the last few years. Then obviously working for Dan for the last few years as well.

[Brandon]

All right, good deal. And Dan, who are you, man? What. Why do you. Why are you my backyard honky tonk right now for? Ain't the first time.

[Dan Brokos]

No, it's not. I'm Dan brokos. I spent 27 years in the military, 21 of those in the SF soft community. I retired, started lead Faucet Tactical and I think this is my sixth or seventh year doing this.

[Brandon]

Okay.

[Dan Brokos]

I'm in Texas, has been good to me and mostly CQB really for the last three years has, has kicked off for me. So that's primarily what I'm teaching now.

[Brandon]

Yeah, just so reveal the curtain. I also help Dan out as well. So that way no one goes, well, you didn't say that or whatever. So I know how people are bit off transparency. So it's not about. This is the only way of doing things. It's basically going over, hey, here's the principles of what cqb. Cause I think that gets confused a lot. Guys think some of what they're teaching or what they're saying is the principle when it's actually not. So I wanted to kind of go back over this whole series of train up series and I think this is an important one for CQB and stuff. So. Principles of cqb. Dan, when I say that. Or let's go back to this. So when it comes to background with cqb, kind of tell me about that so the guys can understand what you're coming from. When you, when you speak of this, the knowledge base and where this came from, this ain't just you pull out of your ass. And this is my way of seeking now.

[Dan Brokos]

This is, I would say everything I teach now is plagiarized. Plagiarized from the military. And actually what keeps me relevant is, is, is the law enforcement instructors like Gabe and yourself and everybody else on the Ellie side that helps me out. My background sort of started not just SF, but there's specialized companies in SF that are actually tier 2 elements. They used to be called the crisis respons. There's a schoolhouse at Bragg. And our whole evolution came from supporting the Tier 1 units on the army and Navy side. So they invented a schoolhouse. And operational wise I spent most of my time serving EUCOM and AFRICOM and their CENTCOM and PACOM down there. And you were required to do hr. That's what you're on call for in case the tier one units couldn't make it over there. So the schoolhouse went hand in hand pretty much with. With what they're playing those guys are doing. And I didn't start there. I spent some time on a regular ODA and then I went there after three years and kind of fell in love with. Everybody has their niche where I came from. And I worked my way up from a cell leader to a troopsar major and then I went to the schoolhouse for the first time and took over the Sephardic school side.

[Brandon]

Okay.

[Dan Brokos]

Which at the schoolhouse we run a sniper program and I'll. And an assault side. The assault SIDE's a acronym Sephardic. So it disguises a lot of what it really means about. But it's really nine weeks of advanced marksmanship breaching in cqb. And that's where we really hammer out the fundamentals of what we're putting out to the guys. It's really a schoolhouse designed for only those. Those crisis response force companies that are exist out there. And then the sniper side of the house is the same event. But most of my time was spent on one of those crypts. I did a year and a half as the assault side ncic. I went operational again, got promoted to SAR Major, ran the Krift Company and then I spent my last three years at that company before I retired where I oversaw the assault operations and the sniper side of the house.

[Brandon]

So you have to be very plugged into what's going on currently. And hey, you're teaching this, you're responsible. So you really have to be squared away with what's going on.

[Dan Brokos]

Yeah. And you know, every. Every two years we would do a re scrub of the SOP with all the Chris and the tier one units and say, hey, over the last two years, what are we changing in the schoolhouse? So that's how we see operational relevant with it? No, not. You could ask a hundred people 100 different things and you'd get how much do you put into it? But you bring the key leaders together and make a knowledgeable decision on if we're going to change the tactic or not. And that's what we've always been doing that every. Every two or three years. It may be nothing, but it could be. It's a.

[Brandon]

It's all minor tweaks and stuff.

[Dan Brokos]

Yeah, we've been doing points of domination since I've been in, in the Crif, but it's changed a lot over the years. You know, we learned a lot when we first started deploying, and it's adapted.

[Brandon]

To that for all that. And then you still stay current with the guys running that right now, and we're able to communicate with them and go, hey, what's going on? What's changing things like that.

[Dan Brokos]

Yeah, I pop out there once or twice a year. I got good friends that are still working out there. A good buddy of mine is actually the SAR Major out there. I still know guys that are in the fifth group, Kriff, the 10th group, Griff, and all that stuff. And I always reach out to them for minor tweaks. And I really rely on people like Gabe, too, who is teaching the same thing that we were doing in the military. And there's a lot of law enforcement agencies doing. And we'll go back here. That's not the only way to do things. And I don't believe in that. Yeah, but everybody in the law enforcement that instructions me keeps me relevant, too.

[Brandon]

Good. Good deal. All right, so let's define what are the principles cqb, fellas, what are they?

[Dan Brokos]

I'll say surprise, speed and violence of action. All right, I know, I know there's a lot of things on the Internet saying what order should they come in? I. I don't really care. Define all three of them and adjust to that.

[Brandon]

Okay, what about you?

[Dan Brokos]

Game?

[Gabe Rivera]

Yeah, I agree. Surprise, speed and bounce of action. I will personally say that I, I put surprise, surprise.

[Matt Smith]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brandon]

Matt, what do you think, man?

[Matt Smith]

Well, that goes a little bit more than that. Obviously, being very fortunate to have run most the majority operations and being trained that way and running dynamic, you know, the, the no knock style. You gotta be able to clear space on the move. We talked about this before, so however you want to say it, speech, rise, violence, act, whatever. Like I, like I heard that when I first came over. It's good and it's fine. I just think that just says one thing. Okay. You have to be adaptive to handle what you're coming into. And so CQB is not just a dynamic warrant service or an hr. It's about being able to clear space on the move. Whether it Be a small apartment or a large warehouse or whatever you think you may do. One suspect, multiple suspects. But having an ability to adjust on the fly, being able to shift, transition between moving fast, slowing down, doing this, doing whatever you need to be able to do. So it's not just one way. Talk about that. I always say, guys, it's not one way. It's not, it's just, there's not the way. It's a way. This is the way to say, like, we do it here with us. Yeah, we tried to present that. Like, I'm not interested in what other people like, what they do back there. Like, we can ask them on the side. They can kind of cross reference how it relates to what we're doing. Not really my concern because, like, they're here to the class. We're trying to show them, you know, what we're, how we believe in it, what we do, our philosophy on it. So again, it is a, I think, you know, speech, violence, speed, surprise and violence. Action works only if they have, if they're on the same page and they're trying to apply it equally. If you have guys doing it differently, then I think sometimes it falls apart. That makes sense. So it's having a, A, a structured, you know, method of assessing and prioritizing and moving through. That's what sets you up for success? No, it's a long answer compared to everybody else's. Yeah, I think it's just more than those three words.

[Brandon]

Yeah, so, so let's let, so we're talking about speed. So what does that mean? Because I too, believe in the modulation of speed. Having, there's times where I got to get on the gas and I'm in fifth gear, and then all of a sudden, man, I'm hitting that clutch and it's freaking first gear now because of whatever the situation may be. Let, let's talk about that. Dan, how do you, how would you define speed when you're teaching guys? What, what does that look like for you?

[Dan Brokos]

I, I, I think it's, you know, the more you do it, the better you're at. And all of us right here who have served with the same dudes on the same team for multiple years. Yeah, we're going to be way faster than anything else. Yeah, but you still can outrun the mind. And I use the analogy you can't run and read a book. You can walk at a brisk pace and read a book. And I, I think most of the mistakes I see when teaching cqb, and this is what we're Teaching this week. This is an open enrollment, not at the basic level, but we got guys who are brand new to this. So speed is, is you got to be able to clear real estate on the move. Speed is your security. But at the end of the day, it's one of the most common mistakes. I see if you move too fast, not run your headlights, you have a wild rush, false excitement that comes into a room. And that dude, at the end of the day, hey, you ran a five room set. And this is something I learned when I first got in the military. I was fresh out of our course and my team leader says, hey, Dan, draw that six room set on the board where every piece of furniture target was in, target you shot. And I'm like, I thought that was four rooms, bro. Yeah, but I use that as I all agreed with, you know, speed is security, but you cannot run your headlights. I think you need to start slow to process the room. Because really I think your CQB comes in speed. How fast you can think. Because you know, really marks has a lot to do with speed. You know, everything needs to be done on the move in cqb. And if you can't hit flying through the room, then you probably need to slow it down. If we're bypassing open doors and that's your SOP to stop at them, we probably need to slow it down.

[Brandon]

Gabe, what do you want to add to that?

[Gabe Rivera]

Yeah, I'd say the same thing with speed. It's not necessarily in general foot speed, but it's the efficiency and how you're processing the room. Yeah. So being able to dominate the space, eliminate threats, control the situation, all that needs to be done efficiently. So I'm cutting down on the amount of time that I'm spending in each space.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Gabe Rivera]

So. And again, that comes with being on the same page with the unit that you're working with. Yeah, everybody's on the same page. You're only as strong as your weakest link. If someone's slowing you down because they're thinking slower than you, then you're only moving as fast as that slowest link.

[Brandon]

So, yeah, I think we've all probably experienced running with new guys and we're teaching them and you're like, holy shit. Like, damn. Like, okay, dude, like process this. See this? A little faster. And I think that's where that whole speed comes in. Because of your experience. And I too agree with the whole speed thing. It's not necessarily my foot speed. Yes, that's part of it, but it's it, it's that processing speed. It's the way I can cut the bullshit out and get to what the actual important things is. Important things are. Matt, what do you want to add to that, man?

[Matt Smith]

Well, it's hard to come back with something new. I would say this is that we talk about the efficiency of your moving. Like I'm taking three steps versus your seven. Because you're. You're going around a piece of furniture you don't have to, or you're walking along a wall way too long than you should. Like, I think people be part of the problem. I see with training, as far as people from being from, you know, from California and back and different people. We have people all from Alaska. Is that they won't pre plan flight paths on how to clear a room.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Matt Smith]

They want to be told, I want to stay two by two off the wall. I'm going to do this, I'll do that. And if I change a variable near that, Nope, I'm doing the same thing over and over again. That's what they want. Because they do not want to have to be responsible for using that frontal cortex and being able to assess. And they don't want to do that. And so what they want is, is they want somebody. And they go to these different instructors, whether it be Dan or somebody else, and they go, no, he said to do it this way or they do it that way. I'm like, well, maybe in that particular scenario, whatever you were doing, maybe that's what they wanted you to do. Or they thought that was the right way or applicable. But what, what I see is a lot of officers is that they won't like, nope, I was, I. You said I need to be here in this kind of room. It's a corner fed room. I was number two coming in. I should be doing this. I'm like, absolutely, absolutely not. Because the guy in front of you went this way, this time versus that way. And so what they're doing is, is that they need reps. Those reps build confidence. When they have confidence, they move more efficient.

[Brandon]

Yes.

[Matt Smith]

Not speed. There's plenty of guys on the team that can outrun me. Yeah, They're a lot younger and better shape than I am, but they're not moving through the pro. They're not processing. How do you do that from reps?

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Matt Smith]

And so I think what happens is, is people want to. Either they want a pre planned flight path and being told where to go, like walk the walls or to do this. Like, no, we don't. I don't believe in any of that. I believe in, I'm assessing on the prioritization of threats and I'm trying to move through the room as efficiently as possible, either wasting motion or putting myself in a bad spot.

[Brandon]

Yeah, it's funny you say that. As far as predetermined plight or paths. The times I can look at some of the mess ups I've had in CQB is when you have a floor plan and you start practicing that floor plan and then you hit it on a real deal and it's not like it was or just things. I, I'd rather just you just give me a generic deal and we'll figure it out on the fly. Because I, I, I hate it. Because guys are like, okay, I want to do this, this and this and it never happens that way. And I, I have, I, I, I, when I hear that with my guys, I'm like, no, cut it out. Let's just, just do what you know what to do. Think about what you need to do when you get in there. Not, let's start pre planning. Okay, I'm always going to go this way.

[Dan Brokos]

Don't.

[Matt Smith]

Because more organic. If you're just doing it live and raw. You know, we hit houses all the time. Seven, eight times. Been to them. You know when I purposely tried to tell myself and they're like, hey, I really don't care what it looks like. We've had walls knocked out from the last time we hit it or they built in new walls or they just put a damn door and they had a cage door in the middle of a hallway. I mean, who does that? Yeah, like that was not there last time. And so like you got to be able to see it and take it and assess. And I just think overall, I think people are lazy. They want to go check the box. I went to this school, I checked off on this three day CQB class. I'm good to go. It's like, no, even our class is three days. All it is is just to give you a imprint of what you need to work on going forward.

[Brandon]

Yes.

[Matt Smith]

And people just want to be told where to go. So like, hey, I went there. You can't get on to me. I was not wrong where I went. Yeah, yeah.

[Gabe Rivera]

I would say it. In law enforcement in general, everybody's looking for that easy button.

[Dan Brokos]

Right.

[Gabe Rivera]

Just press that easy button and make it easy for everybody. But that's not necessarily how it is.

[Matt Smith]

Right.

[Gabe Rivera]

CQB's and thinking man's game. You have to. Obviously SOPs are setting that foundation for how your team maneuvers together. But you actually have to think yourself through this problem.

[Brandon]

Right?

[Matt Smith]

Every.

[Gabe Rivera]

The problem's different. Every house you go into the, the mission set that you're going for, whether we're. We're talking hr, whether we're talking warrant service executions or barricaded suspects. SOP set that platform. It gives us that playbook. But you have to think your way through this. We're not range robots. You don't say, hey, go left. I go left and I stare. You, you reference a painting the walls, right?

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Gabe Rivera]

Guys are just there and they're just painting the walls. They're looking at a blank corner because that's what the picture says in the book.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Gabe Rivera]

But no, you thinking through the problem. We're here for a reason. You have to execute submissions.

[Brandon]

Yeah, no cops want every freaking answer. Like, dude, the military is the same way.

[Dan Brokos]

Everybody wants the 100% template. I can give you 85, 80, the other. The other 1520s in your brain. And we don't want to use our brain. And that's why, I mean, me and Gabe had this discussion today is on the drive to your house, which was about an hour.

[Brandon]

Matt knows that drive.

[Dan Brokos]

Yeah, I see why Derek quit.

[Brandon]

Ye.

[Dan Brokos]

Uh, but it comes down. You, you, you can have. And, and I'm sure we've all worked with them. You could have a super shooter, a fitness model guy, but he just cannot think inside problem solving sets, which is cqb. And hey, man, you're a great dude, but guess what? You're on outer containment probably for the next five years.

[Brandon]

Yeah, yeah, no, you're right.

[Dan Brokos]

Get better. I mean, it's just not for everybody because that's why there's not a lot of people knocking on you. Damn SWAT tour, SWAT door to come on in. I mean, I'm sure people want to go there, but you know, selection's there for a reason. Because it's not just about shooting in pt. It's about how to think when it comes to.

[Brandon]

And that's. That's the biggest thing, man. The CQB is just. Basically it's. It's just a one big mind problem that you're having to continue to, to process and, and just work through as a team. Because you can't do CQB by yourself. Like, no, you can have the best CQB guy and you give him four suit sandwiches and it just goes to shit and stuff. So let's talk about the whole violence of action or whatever word we want to use for that. What. What does that, what does that look like, Gabe, when you, when you hear violence of action, what does that mean to you?

[Gabe Rivera]

So coming from the law enforcement perspective, that word violence of action, people misrepresent it and what it actually means, it's not violence, the form of violence, but I would use the word initiative. Right. When I maintain initiative, I am freely inserting my will on my adversary, and I'm free to insert that will until he decides to push back and force his will on me. And that's when I've lost my initiative. Right. So I'm attempting to freely insert my will. Keep him on his toes, keep him on his heels, actually. So I am pretty much executing my plan freely for that. So I'm trying to maintain that initiative. You're dictating what, dictating the action that I'm doing based on my. For that, my operation or what I'm trying to get accomplished.

[Brandon]

Matt, what, what do you, what do you think about when you hear that?

[Matt Smith]

Yeah, I think you want to be assertive now, I understand, is the violence of action. People like, all violence, like. Yeah, well, we really project very little violence into people.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Matt Smith]

Okay. You think of the thousands of people, and I'm just talking about, for us, that we confront every year on any kind of operation, whether it be a call out, dynamic warrant search, which is by far the bulk of what we do, like 97% of our operations that hostage rescues or takedowns. Like, you want to be assertive to your point, opposing your will, which I what the way I look at it is, is I want them to recognize immediately, like there's no chance of me winning. Like this is over. So I can either go down and be done with it and survive this, you know, with very little to no injury or hurt to me, or I can push back. I'm still going to lose, and there's going to be a lot. There'll be consequences. So there's assertiveness into the situation. And a lot of that is because, again, back to the training, back to your selection, having good people do good, sound tactics. It's on the same plan. And when you are being able to be assertive and be dynamic and put that, you know, your plan into place and impose your will, like I said, you know, in the thousands of people a year that we confront, very little to no pushback from them. Every now and then we'll have one that really wants to fight or most of them want to flee, you know, flee or, you know, fade kind of fight feedback. And so I think that absurdness of being, you know, applying, you know, what you're trying to do, which is restrain them and put in, contain them. Not everyone will goes to jail, right, On a warrant. You know, it depends on who they are and what they're there for. But like, understand this. You are going to stay with us until we make the decision and it's your call on whether or not it's hard or not.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Matt Smith]

Does that make sense?

[Brandon]

No, I agree. I think for me, when I think of the whole, quote, violence of action, it goes along with what you're saying. I would add to the confusion, you're wanting to confuse these people of what is actually going on by, hey, I'm port and covering this window. That's confusing me all of a sudden, Damn, my front door is being blown open. There is a nine banger being thrown in my backyard. Yes, very much. You're, you're confusing these people where they don't know what to do and how to react. And I think that's part of that whole violence of action. I think also the violence of action too is just showing up and you're coming in someone's house with machine gun, you know, looking, you're scary looking. That's just part of it. I mean, it's like you look at Mike Tyson and then you look at some dude who's 150 pounds, you're like, that just looks violent. That looks violent. Like, I don't want to mess with him. That's part of it. I think that is a good thing because how many times do we show up in the Bearcat and all this to a BP and they're like, oh, swats here, okay, I want to give up. Or you just introduce, you know, say you blow their door open and oh, we're coming out. To me, that's continuing that whole, quote, violence of just confusing them and making them think, man, I don't want to fight these guys because I am not winning.

[Gabe Rivera]

I would throw the word decisiveness in there as well. Like we, we have worked this out in training here before. We are pre planned actions that I'm putting them into effect.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Gabe Rivera]

Whereas again, he's caught on his heels.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Gabe Rivera]

Like we've been here before, he hasn't. Or maybe he has, but we're very decisive in the actions that we're putting in now.

[Brandon]

Dan, what do you got with that?

[Dan Brokos]

You guys cover it pretty good. But on the aspect, it's kind of funny you say that because I was, when I developed this slideshow, I was like, man, Should I put that in there? Violence of action. Because when I was at the schoolhouse teaching the very first class, I kind of went over, like, rules of engagement, and. Not for the schoolhouse, but we're looking at it.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Dan Brokos]

Like, hey, what's violence of action to this young kid? And he goes, jam your suppressor in dude's forehead.

[Brandon]

That is one. I guess.

[Dan Brokos]

That is one. But that's not what we're talking about here. I like to compare it. Like, this is. We'd go back and forth and we'd have a full mission profile and be like, hey, Dan, give up a cell. You guys are. You guys are the role players. And I can remember being. I'll say your house dropped the middle of it. Next thing I know, multiple breach points are going off, and I'm like, we're.

[Brandon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan Brokos]

I would rather be hunting than be the hunted. That's. That's how I correlate it to it. And it's in. Matt hit on the head. It's like, we're not bringing any balance to you. I think part of the violence of action is close, the time, space, and distance. And if you do that, the dude's gonna quit.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Dan Brokos]

If you give him time to think. People who make bad decisions are going to make the bad decisions, and that's where people get hurt. Yeah, but that's what I think it really means to everybody covered on the head. Everybody's got a different definition, but it really means all what we talked about. And I'm glad all these guys are on the podcast because you can see we're saying the same thing. It's like markership and cqb.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Dan Brokos]

But we put it in different words.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Matt Smith]

I would just say this is. You know, I remember being a new guy. Of course, you're obviously, you're not active. You're not participating in live ops. And so you are the bad guys. Right? You're the role players.

[Brandon]

Yes.

[Matt Smith]

And I had great dudes that were there when I got there. They're like, hey, don't just be in here hanging out trying to ambush us or just being, you know, stupid. Pay attention to what's going on. Hear what they're doing, listen to the debriefs, watch what they're doing. He goes, you will learn a tremendous amount about this job, being on that side of the fence. And I tell all the new guys down that. I say, hey, I know you don't like getting shot with sim. Sometimes you don't like having to be in there and get thrown around like Look, I'm telling you.

[Brandon]

Yep.

[Matt Smith]

Your base that you're building right now, your foundation, as far as try to do this job for any length of time, a lot of it's built right here.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Matt Smith]

Being a solid dude come in here, listen, pay attention to the debriefs. Even if you didn't do anything, listen. Because there'll be a day where you're in that situation, being an assaulter or whatever, you're coming in there. And so I think that when they, when they see that those tactics work and they're like, man, I knew you are coming through the door. Like, I knew what the plan was and it still did not matter. That's buy in from, for them to trust the process of what you're trying to do. And I think going forward, that helps them again, that helps build that foundation. So as they're coming up and starting to get, you know, in live ops, you're like, that works. I'm gonna do that way.

[Brandon]

No, for sure. I, I just remember being a new guy and, and, and doing that or being one of the guys that's now instructing and then you're telling a guy, hey man, here's what you're doing wrong. And then they go in and they're the bad guy and they see their buddy do it wrong. They're like, oh, okay, I know exactly what you're talking about because they're now seeing it. So, yeah, I think that's for, for new guys out there. That's, that's a huge thing to work on. All right, so surprise, what does that mean when you think of surprise? Dan, when we're teaching, what does that mean for you?

[Dan Brokos]

That has a lot to do with planning, but I like to correlate it to what I really, really teach in the class. Well, I'd say me, but me, Gabe and you is, you know, multiple breach points, diversionary devices, having flashbangs, porting windows, robots, dogs, all that is the elements and a surprise. But I also think for the most part, again, keeping the types of CQB or the bread and butter out. But the element of moving inside the house is surprise. Spreading out and moving and clearing real estate in a timely manner. Thinking fast is your element of surprise. Because I don't say there's no empirical data, but when we used to wear GoPros on our dogs and other things, people are moving inside the house. What you can't replicate with IPSIC targets, if you're training outside and if you're even playing a role player, you're Standing in there and we get dudes porting thresholds for 30 seconds you're going to get. Or if a flashbang comes and I turn my head and I'm a role player and next thing I know I see four dudes moving that room. That's your element of surprise as well. So I think it's a multitude of things. The planning portion of it all the I would say specially items you have for your SWAT team or team. And then also the element of moving four, five, six dudes in that room and the series of rooms is your element of surprise as well.

[Brandon]

Yeah. Gabe, what would you add in addition.

[Gabe Rivera]

To the planning portion? Just like pattern of life of who we're going after. Are they asleep at this time? Are they being woken up with flashbangs and explosions? You're in a deep sleep and all of a sudden you're being woken up by some explosions. You're being caught off guard.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Gabe Rivera]

And it's taking you a time to, to get caught back up to what's actually happening.

[Brandon]

Right.

[Gabe Rivera]

And again, surprise. We're catching you off guard for that. That's the goal.

[Dan Brokos]

And we used to, we used a lot of we'd call surreptitious entry to where hey, let's not go hard and blow the gate. We're going to climb over it, climb to the rooftop. We used to pick locks, cut, cut, cut big chains leading these compounds with bolt. My, my phasing out.

[Brandon]

You did for a second. All right.

[Dan Brokos]

Now you're stuttering.

[Brandon]

I don't stutter as long as he having a stroke or what.

[Dan Brokos]

But, but I also say, you know, elements price surreptitious entry. Yeah. It was. We used to love going in there and pulling dudes out of bed with the green eyed monster looking at him like holy, how'd you get my house? You know that's another element of planning and how you go about it.

[Brandon]

Well, we talk about that in, in the HR school that, that y'all put on as far as hey, when that element of surprise and we had that initiative to do it. We need to take advantage of that on. Especially on the HR side of that. That stuff. What do you got to add to the surprise bar map?

[Matt Smith]

Well, again, they're all interwoven.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Matt Smith]

Like one flows into the other and they all build on each other.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Matt Smith]

And again it's about being strong and sound in your principles, your beliefs, your ttps.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Matt Smith]

So please, whatever you want to call it. Again, having been very fortunate to run the by far the bulk of my Operations dynamically. Yeah, we call them dynamic. You know, you do. We always catch everybody off guard? No, but at the same time, they may even see us coming on cameras. Now they can do these remote cameras. You can go to Costco for 100 bucks and buy a couple cameras and see them on your phone. So we have to. We've adapted to that to some degree. They see us probably now more than they ever have.

[Brandon]

Yes.

[Matt Smith]

Okay. People dime us out with the phone, whatever. And yet they are still caught off guard because either we got there faster than they thought, or we're moving to the house quicker, or we defeated the cages or we defeated the chains or whatever. And we surprise them by either we've already done it, or they're like, I didn't anticipate you being in the alleyway, or I didn't expect that 9 banger going off on the Delta side, and I'm caught in the OODA loop. And so you. Even though they may know you're there, and I think that's goes to say, if you can surprise people and they know that you're there, I think that's a win. Right? That's a big win. And so it is multiple of tactics that you have different things you can do. We could do all of them on one op or only one of them. And going back to the, you know, clandestine stealth, you know, different versions, whatever you want to call it, entry. Having done that and snuck in there and got people under nods or low light where they did not expect us and had. I mean, literally at the foot of his bed, I'm looking him under nods, and I remember looking. I can see the guys over to my left and right. I'm like, all right, go. And they just pounced on him. And it was like he had no idea. And when he. After everything. Everything was said and done, he was like, when he kind of came back down to earth and his heart rate kind of lowered, he's like, I had no idea, you guys. And just a capital murder suspect.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Matt Smith]

That was in there sleeping his bed, because he didn't think anybody knew where he was. There was four fully, you know, ready to go, SWAT guys in his room. And that's. That's probably the ultimate surprise. You don't get that very often, but being able to pull that off after running dynamic for the day and then be able to go do that at night and then come back the next morning and do another dynamic, being able to throttle up and throttle down. Yes. Your surprise is in there. It's not just about showing up and go, aha, here we are. And catching them off guard because again, you're going after guys. A lot of them know they're wanted. They know that you're after them. So being able to get in there, loop, surprise them even though they're on the lookout, yeah, I think that goes to a lot to help for an advantage for you and your guys.

[Brandon]

No, for sure. And. And like, I think that whole surprise, I think that was a good way of really wrapping all this up. And, and it's funny what you said, Matt. You. It ties it all in. And before you even said that, that's what I was thinking. Because one of the trainups we had with Ben Steger, we went over grip, we went over vision, we went over, you know, indexing, trigger control. And at the end of the day, it's all melted together because if you have one that's fucked up, everything else gets fucked up. Because vision is part of its vision, but it also ties into controlling the gun, not chasing your red dot grip goes into this. So to me, I want to look at these three principles. They're all intermingled and you can't take one of them out without affecting the other one. And I think that's what's good because that's what really sound CQB is, is. Is putting all this together and meshing them in there and knowing when to apply that and when we need to. We lost the initiative. How do we get it back? By doing, okay, if we do this, this and this, then we can get it back. You know, like you said, hey, it's covering ground in an efficient area. We're all saying the same thing. We just said it a little different, but it. At the end of the day, these are the, These are the principles of that. And I think that's important for guys to understand. So if you're one of these guys that are listening to this and you're not using these principles in your cqb, then you probably need to kind of reevaluate, reevaluate some stuff because you have to have all that. And I think the whole modulating the speed is gigantic that guys just don't understand. Matt and I talk about it a lot. If all these teams are doing these surrounding call outs and all they do is just slow, methodical things. What happens when the ultimate test day comes with hr? My example is if you're a sprinter and you're sprinting, your team that you're teaching is sprinting for a whole year straight. And that's all you do is sprint. And then one day the boss comes to you and says, hey, I want y'all to jog this 5k run. You're gonna do that so fucking easy because you can sprint and then I can jog. But if you're a jogging fast walking team all year, and then your boss comes says, hey, I want you to run these 400 meter sprints. You're fucking hurt, you're pulling hamstrings. You got guys that can't do it because they, they don't ever practice that way. So I think going back to when we talk about this, we have to be able to modulate speeds and we have to practice at a fast paced speed and be able to dial that down and stuff. So anything else, guys, y'all want to add to this? We've been going about 36 minutes and stuff. Anything we miss or we want to cover?

[Gabe Rivera]

No, I think we talked about the principles of CQB and we didn't even approach threshold assessments or where to stand in the room. So I think we started off to.

[Brandon]

A good spot or footwork or how you guys appear. Step on this dot, step on that dot, all that kind of stuff. So no, and because all that other. Just, just you can work on that on your own and do, do all that other mess and whatever this, this is what it, you have to have this to be able to do CQB properly. So. All right, well, we're gonna end this one and then we're going to start another one. But y'all hear that in a few weeks after you hear this one, so. All right, y'all train hard, fellas. See y'all.