TTPOA Train-Up's Series -Teaching In-Service Practical Shooting to Active/Veteran Officers

Summary

TTPOA Podcast: Train-Up Series – Teaching In-Service Practical Shooting to Active/Veteran Officers

Date: November 3, 2025
Host(s): Brian & Chansey (SWAT Team Leaders, Texas)
Setting: Backyard, raining (adds to relaxed, candid campfire-style discussion)
Episode Focus: Approaching in-service firearms and practical shooting training for experienced officers; overcoming cultural and pedagogical barriers.

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Overview of Main Theme

This episode (Part Two of the Train-Up Series) dives into the challenges and best practices for teaching practical and performance-based shooting to active, veteran, and experienced officers—moving beyond traditional, static qualification methods. The hosts emphasize changing the training environment, addressing ingrained habits, fostering buy-in, and shifting range culture away from outdated practices to ones that truly prepare officers for real-life encounters.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Transitioning Experienced Officers to Practical Training

• In-service training for non-recruits (officers with years of experience) brings unique challenges.
• Need to reset expectations and foster an environment where failure is not punished but used as an opportunity to learn.
  • “We’re not going to sit here and judge you…as long as you know why it happened.” (Brian, 01:44)

Big Insight: Focus on troubleshooting and personal progress rather than judgment or embarrassment.

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2. Overcoming Skepticism from Veteran Officers

• Longer-serving officers ("crusty ass cops") often resist change: “It’s worked for 20 years. Why do I want to change it now?” (Brian, 02:51)
• The instructor’s ‘people skills’ become crucial in building trust and getting buy-in.
• Key is to clarify that pushing limits and occasional failure are expected and supported.

Notable Quote:
“They’ve never been given permission to push themselves or fail…” (Unidentified Instructor, 03:19)

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3. Changing the Culture of the Range

• Previous range instruction often discouraged experimentation and was seen as punitive.
• Instructors must lead by example, demonstrate, and own mistakes.
  • “If you get up there and go to demo and screw it up…the answer is don't do that.” (Brian, 05:06)
• Credibility is everything—if instructors lose it, buy-in collapses.

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4. Foundations through Inductive Learning

• Demonstrations should be paced for learning, not just showing off.
• Tangible results grow buy-in: “They see that they can do it…now let’s mimic that.” (Brian, 06:15)
• Breaking ingrained habits (e.g., revolver grip with auto pistols) is a process, not an event.

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5. Creating a Positive Training Environment

• Atmosphere should encourage returning officers to want to get better, not just “check the box.”
  • “Changing the atmosphere and making it to where they want to get better, they want to come down and train more.” (Unidentified Instructor, 07:36)
• Training blocks are structured for all experience levels, and command staff support is crucial.

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6. Integrating Practical Performance Drills

• Move away from rote line firing and range theatrics (“stepping off the X,” “scan after every string”).
• These theatrics often sap valuable brainpower and detract from meaningful skills.
  • “We really get away from the stuff that doesn't matter. That's taking brainpower away from students.” (Unidentified Instructor, 10:22)

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7. Realism vs. Range Safety Constraints

• Stress the need for training closer to real engagements, acknowledging a difference between “range safety” and “real life safety.”
  • “There’s a huge difference between range safety and real life safety. For sure.” (Brian, 13:36)
• Instructors must set up scenarios with both accountability and realistic movement, under proper supervision.

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8. Role of Customer Service in Firearms Instruction

• Range instructors’ primary job is to help officers, not gatekeep or judge:
  • “If you’re in the business of teaching firearms…your real job is customer service. So help them.” (Brian, 14:44)
• Those unwilling to do the work or engage students should move elsewhere.

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9. Breaking Down Speed vs. Accuracy Myths

• Officers often believe they must choose between speed and accuracy, but both can be developed together.
  • “People think that speed and accuracy are on total opposite ends of the spectrum…they can’t be together. Well, what do you think about somebody…who can jerk a pistol and shoot a bill drill…in under 2 seconds?” (Brian, 19:34)

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10. Critiquing Outdated Training Scripts & Drill Sheets

• Old “drill sheet” mentality is seen as lazy; instruction should be fluid and responsive.
  • “There’s no particular order…that’s just reading a script. It’s not teaching to the class.” (Unidentified Instructor, 21:41)
• Justifying drills based on class needs is more important than ticking boxes.

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11. Philosophy on Shot Timers and Hit Factor

• Timers are tools—not crutches—to gather performance metrics and set personal benchmarks.
  • “If all you do is chase what that thing tells you, then you’re throwing a lot of stuff out.” (Brian, 22:43)
• Emphasis on “hit factor” (balance between speed and accuracy) rather than raw speed alone.
  • “You got middle of the road, high hit factor…super slow but low hit factor. Put the three on the table…” (Brian, 25:01)
• Students encouraged to chase their own progression, not just compete.

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12. Encouraging a Growth Mindset & Engagement

• The ultimate goal: officers leave training more motivated, skilled, and open to improvement—breaking the cycle of routine, checkbox range time.
  • “I love to see the light bulb come on. And just the joy of shooting…” (Chansey, 15:53)
• We want officers leaving the range inspired to train on their own and continue their journey.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Range Culture:
  “The welcoming side of it…instead of blowing them off because you feel like it’s going to be hard…all of a sudden you just blow them off.” — Brian, 17:38

• On Instructor Attitude:
  “Don’t ever decide that you’ve arrived, because there’s somebody out there that will push your shit in with a gun—and they probably don’t carry one for a living.” — Brian, 18:15

• On Timers:
  “It should be used…to gather metrics to understand how fast this shit is for the bad guy.” — Chansey, 25:21

• On Breaking Myths:
  “Name a problem that won’t solve in the law enforcement world, albeit the justification's been established before the trigger’s pressed.” — Brian, 20:33

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:25] – Introduction, context, and goals for part two
• [01:41] – Opening expectations for in-service training and breaking old mindsets
• [03:19] – "Permission to fail" and shifting range environment
• [05:10] – Demonstrating credibly as instructors
• [06:58] – Facing long-standing habit (grip) issues
• [07:36] – Building an environment of improvement
• [10:22] – Trimming range theatrics, focusing on real skills
• [13:36] – Real world vs. range world: setting up realistic, safe training
• [14:44] – Customer service focus in firearms instruction
• [19:34] – Marrying speed and accuracy—debunking old misconceptions
• [21:41] – Critique of drill sheets and rigid instructions
• [22:34] – Timers: metrics, not scorecards
• [24:12] – Teaching hit factor as a learning tool
• [25:21] – Contextualizing timer data (officer vs. adversary)
• [27:47] – Encouraging personal progress with hit factor
• [28:46] – Analyzing timer splits and objective skill measurement

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Final Thoughts

The hosts and their guest instructors deliver a frank and practical discussion about the realities of bringing seasoned officers up to speed with modern, effective shooting techniques. They stress instructor credibility, creating a positive/engaging environment, moving away from rote or punitive methods, and focusing on metrics that genuinely matter for real-world performance. Their language is blunt, camaraderie-heavy, and shaped by real range experience—geared to first responders who know the difference between theory and what works when it counts.

Transcript

[Brian]

Foreign. Welcome to the TTPOA Podcast, a podcast for SWAT officers, military and all first responders. We'll be talking training, tactics and leadership.

[Chansey]

With the best subject matter experts around.

[Brian]

Here are your hosts.

[Chansey]

All right, guys, we're back. Part two of the TTPOA train up. We have Brian and Chansey with us in the back backyard. Honky tonk. And it's raining. Loving it. So you'll hear the tin. The rain hitting the tin roof. So it's kind of gives you a little backyard campfire feeling. I like this. This is kind of what we. When we first envisioned this as, as the podcast, we wanted to have a conversation with just guys sitting around a campfire or at the range after a long day of shooting and training and just talking. No political correctness. No. We got to be fancy and use these big ass words. It's just men and women talking. So that's what we really have here tonight. I love it, man. I'm actually excited. Just the weather's so nice now. It's cool. Got the rain. So Brian, Brian and Chansey are back. Man, it's been a while, huh? Yeah, it really has been a minute. So. All right, so we're gonna do part two of this episode and we're going to start off with training current officers or officers that had experience. I'm not recruits anymore. Now you get some dude who's been here 25 years or five years or whatever the case may be, and we're doing in service training and they got taught the old way or a different way. So how do, how do we overcome that? What do we do? How does it, what does that look.

[Brian]

Like at the gate? You got to set the stage.

[Chansey]

Okay.

[Brian]

You got to change the. As far as what's expected, if you're going to take a practical approach to this and the way we go about it is explaining to them from the word go that you're not going to be looked at the way you were during the old, the old way of being taught, the old PPC style of shooting. Yeah. Again, changing the environment that they walk into on that day so that they can understand that there's going to be failure. We expect that we could. I know we harp on that a lot, but that's where we're not going to sit here and judge you. We're not going to berate you for screwing it up in a training environment as long as you know why it happened. Okay. And if you don't, then we're going to teach you how to troubleshoot that for that, and so when you figure out what went wrong, what caused it, and then that's where we're going to tie our brain to fix it to that and we're going to work accordingly.

[Chansey]

All right. I'm sure that's probably some skepticism from.

[Brian]

Some guys like yeah, it's much harder than with recruits because you've got, you've got this just ball of clay with the recruit. Well now you've got this old hardened, grizzled, you know, crusty ass cop that comes in there. It's got 20 years on the job. Yeah, well, they're like, my God, it's worked for 20 years. Well, why, you know, why do I want to change it now?

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Then it comes down with the people skill side of it for us to interact with them and we've got a good reputation with our people at least we like to think and, and they, you know, they seek us out and they're like, no, we want, we, we see the, we see the value in this and they'll come to us and they're willing to listen. And that's, that's half the battle with.

[Unidentified Instructor]

A bunch, I think a lot of it too, talking to those guys, you know, the 10, 15, 5 year, 20 year officers, whatever, you know, they've always just done enough to go to get by in firearms training basically.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

And, and they, they've never been given permission to push themselves or fail. And if they did try to do something to maybe progress or get out of their comfort zone or whatever, then they were berated and they weren't allowed to do that. And we make it clear from jump street like, hey, push yourselves, give it an honest go with what we're doing here. It's okay to change. And if it works, great for you, if it works for you, great. If it doesn't, then, you know, let's, let's try to make what you got going a little better, you know, But I think that's the biggest thing is, is for so long we, we didn't give our people. There was no comfort coming to the range. Like they almost like despised it a little bit at some, it seemed like, you know. Yep, yeah, yeah, you know, and, and you know, orange guys are assholes and they think they're better than everybody and, and all this, you know, typical stuff. And I'm not saying that, that we're like our, I'm not saying that where we come from is necessarily guilty from that 100 of the time, but there's always that, you know, that stigma that Comes with that. And guys just didn't want to come to the range.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

You know, they didn't. They didn't. They had no desire to do more than shoot their 60 rounds for the call for the year. And for that, I think too.

[Chansey]

Would you say this kind of plays into it too, is a lot of good red shirt range. Guys don't really demo. And if they do, it's built to their skill set that they know how to do it.

[Brian]

It's built to their ceiling.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And I mean that, then that changes from person to person.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

But you've also got them to go up there and will tell somebody to do something that they can't do. Or if they get up there and, and go to demo and screw it up.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

The answer is don't do that.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Yeah. Do opposite of what I did.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Well, that's, I mean, to me, your credibility just went out the damn window. Yeah. And anybody that's been on the job for very, you know, very long at all, I mean, what, what's the number one thing that they're looking at? Do they want to. Am I buying what this dude's selling right here or are they full of shit?

[Chansey]

No, you're right.

[Brian]

And if they throw the bullshit flag out there where you're toast, man, you've lost them.

[Chansey]

Yeah. Because I think too, like, you start, you're starting to demo, you know, some movements and you're got barrels up and you're doing this and you're doing that and you're running from this point to this point and shooting. There's no way to mimic that because every run is a new run.

[Brian]

Right.

[Chansey]

So you can't just sit here and go, well, I'm going to work on this drill and I'm going to have this down. I'm going to work on these movements, man. It's, it's always changing and stuff. And I think that's when you're starting to show guys and, and they're seeing it and you're at a pace where they can see it. And then you're talking them through this and you're, you're teaching these foundation skills. They're buying into it because now you're actually, they're learning that inductive style of, of training is, is so valuable.

[Brian]

You see the results.

[Chansey]

Damn, that's loud.

[Brian]

I love that they see that they can do it. Yeah. Well, now it's opening their eyes and they're like, ah, wait a minute. Okay, so now let's, let's mimic that.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Let's repeat that. Let's duplicate that. Yeah, okay. And then whenever, then whenever you, whenever they go up there and quote, they screw something up, well, now they can see what went wrong and they can feel what went wrong. Now we understand, you know, now there's a level of understanding just for one simple drill. And now we can move forward with that. Yeah, we gotta, we gotta battle grips a lot from, you know, from incumbents because it's a huge deal. We've got people, Brian and I are like, whenever you see him grab the gun, they'll come in there shooting, you know, an auto loading pistol, and they'll cross thumb across the back because they were taught on revolvers. And we're like, all right, hang on now, you know? Well, that's a, that's a huge hurdle for somebody.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Well, in. Instead of just saying, oh, it's okay to hold the gun like that, you know, which if you're shooting lights out, then guess what? I don't really give a shit how you hold the gun. You know, I mean, let's be real now, fundamentally, is it going to be better to make more contact with the gun and do those things? Yes. We show them that now. We're not an asshole about it. Whenever they grip the gun coming out, trying to shoot a faster string of fire and they go back to what they've done forever and cross their thumbs, we tell them, hey, look, fix that. I'm working on it, I'm working on it. Yeah, that's the part of not belittling them because I do something for 20 years. Well, it's. You're not going to break the damn habit in one, you know, in a four, five, six hour session.

[Unidentified Instructor]

That's.

[Chansey]

You're gonna have to do that at dry fire. Yeah. You're gonna come back, you're gonna have.

[Unidentified Instructor]

To want them to want to do it. And I think that's the biggest thing for us is changing the, the atmosphere and, and making it to where they want to get better, they want to come down and train more.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

You know, not like, I gotta go to the range, I have to go to the range today. Like we want. And we're seeing a lot of that, thankfully. You know, we have the support from our command staff and the supervision at the range right now. You know, we ran 44 classes last year. Chancey and I taught 44 classes. Four hour blocks to just your, you know, not rookies, whatever. What I mean, people are coming 3 year to 29 year to 31 year old. Okay. You know, and having the support to do that, but then have it to where the students are engaged and want to come back and, and, and learn.

[Chansey]

So how do you introduce the practical side of performance side of shooting to someone who wasn't trained that way, doesn't really know, like what do you, what do you, how do you, how does that work? What are you doing?

[Brian]

Well, frame it. Okay. You frame it to them because you ask them about. And the reality of, okay, let's say somebody's been doing this job for 20 years. Can you ask them? Everybody's got social media, right? So Brian and I will, we'll say, okay, you watch Office involved shootings on social media. Different things pop up, you know, different, different videos via YouTube, whatever else. And everybody, you know, across the board. Usually it's unanimous. Absolutely.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Okay. And we bring up though, okay, is there movement involved in which it's a resounding yes. And say, okay, is it, does it happen fast? And it's like, okay, yes. Then do you think that standing here with your toes on the seven yard line shooting the Blue Martian man, does that mimic the, the reality of a law enforcement shooting? And they're like, no. And I said, okay, well then do y' all think that we should train in a way that mimics that? And they're like, yes. Well, whenever you get them to realize that, wait a minute, what we've been doing for all this time and what they probably expected to do whenever they showed up has now changed and they agree with the fact that we should do it in a more practical fashion. Well, now what do you have? You've got. Now they may not be comfortable with it, let's be real. But what do they do now they're willing to give it a go and whenever they, whenever they taste a little bit of success. Yeah. Now what do you have now to Brian's point is we get some buy.

[Chansey]

In the buy in on that. Well, even, even if they've, they watched a few videos, I mean, just if they've been reality based training. How many times have you done these scenarios with your blue gun and it's just standing the line? No, it's a, A lot of times a running gun battle and like that. And you're like that. You do you even know what you were looking at or anything? I mean, even goes into that. I think guys can relate to that as well.

[Unidentified Instructor]

I think so too. And I think the biggest thing too, and I'm guilty of it because I used to, you know, I'm, I'm one of the guys that used to teach this way, and I learned this way from 20 years of experience. Right. And we, we really get away from the stuff that doesn't matter. That's taking brain power away from the students. Like the range theatric stuff.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

You know, like the whole stepping off the X to reload where they take a half step to their left or their right or scanning after every sequence of. Or. Or the things that, like, let's be real, man. You know, Is there a time and place to do those things? Yeah, there is 100 of the time. I mean, I mean there is 100%. There is a time and place for all that stuff. But for so long we would, we would tie that into our training and like browbeat people because they didn't scan properly before they went back to the holster every single time. And all that does is take away from training. Like, I can't. I wish I had a dollar for every minute I wasted yelling at somebody for not scanning.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

You know, and because, come on, like, let's be real, you know, it. Is it. Like I said, is there a time and place?

[Brian]

Sure.

[Unidentified Instructor]

But when I'm trying to. We're trying to teach you the, the fundamentals on how to run a gun and how to be practical in a practical setting. A reality based setting.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

How engagements happen like that. We try to trim as much fat as we can and focus on what's important. Right. And give that to them.

[Chansey]

Well, I go back to if you're, if you're on the.

[Brian]

If you look.

[Chansey]

At some, some of these police shootings. So we pretty much agree that most red shirts out there, you're all on the same line. Like you're.

[Brian]

Yeah, it's a control thing.

[Chansey]

Yeah, very control. Right. We've done that for a long, long time. How many uncontrolled shootings do we see? People shooting 10 yards behind someone, 5 yards or right over their head? We never trained them that way. They just do it because they're in these high stress situations and stuff. So even go back, you can poke holes in the, in the way that we have trained guys because everybody knows to stay online because that's what they do on these.

[Brian]

Until you can't.

[Chansey]

Yeah, until you can't. And then go. And it's like you have to be able to, to see it for yourself. And if you've never saw someone shooting offline at the range and you know it's safe, and then you start seeing out of your periphery like, oh, there he is over there. That's Just part of the induction of training.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Chansey]

And, and, and I mean we all, we all know it. I mean if I'm looking at Gary Stewart over there in that deal's eyeball, I can see into my living room right now. I can see what's going on. I can see you. I like that's just part of teaching guys as well. Like you're, you're, you can see a lot of different things. And, and I think that we've done a bad job of, of just getting that out over the years.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Focusing on the things that aren't practical.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

That don't equate to real life engagements.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

I think is the biggest thing the.

[Brian]

Majority of the time is, is people won't let an officer come onto the range and do things on the range that they're expected to do on the street whenever they leave.

[Chansey]

Okay.

[Brian]

You're exactly like, oh wait, you can't do this, it's unsafe.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

There's a huge difference between range safety and real life safety.

[Chansey]

No, you're right.

[Brian]

For sure, for sure. Train accordingly.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

You know, I mean, let's, let's, let's do what you're supposed, what you need to be doing to get better at your job. Not to make whoever the quote the red shirt is feel like everything's going to be all right. You can set, you can set training up. I mean, Brian and I will break people into groups and we will have two different things going. And if you step back and if you, if you take that old frame of mind.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And you look at it, there's people that will they down both legs.

[Chansey]

Oh yeah.

[Brian]

Nothing about it is unsafe.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

I mean, to the tune of we have our command staff do it. And they're like, absolutely. You have 100 control over this deal. And it comes down to personal accountability too. Yeah. You know, we tell people, look, you know, if there's, if they start getting a little bit out there on the edge, be like, hey man, rain it in. You're getting a little bit, your sponge is getting full right here. And we're not an ass about it unless we have to be. And that's an absolute.

[Chansey]

You're being a dip out there. That's one thing. But man, most guys don't.

[Brian]

I mean most people respond extremely well to that, even the 25 year cop. And at the end of the day they're thankful. They're like, man, thank you for, for helping me.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Well, that's what in. I mean, contrary to popular belief, if you're in the Business of teaching farms at a law enforcement agency. You know what your, what your real job is? It's called customer service. Yeah. So help them. No, sit around and MF them and talk about how well they don't this, they don't this, they don't show up whenever they walk through that door. Make them better. And if you don't want to do that, then pack your and leave.

[Chansey]

No, I, I, I totally agree. It's like, and it's not a spot for the guy who's going to retire, who's wanting to. I just want to go out my last few years and not be involved in this. Okay, that's fine. But there's other places in the department that you can go. Yeah, not on the range.

[Unidentified Instructor]

I think the whole old school red shirt mentality too, was. That's the easy button, right?

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

As an instructor for so long, it was just an easy button to have all the students on a static line all doing the same exact thing, like robots. Because you can look down the line and see the one person who didn't do the one thing you asked and go and just browbeat them, you know, and just pummel them. And like, I think that's, I think that's just a lazy way of teaching.

[Chansey]

No, for sure. And I think too, like, from my experience of just teaching different because I don't really teach recruits. So, so my most, my experience of teaching guys have been, you know, guys that have always been in this job are SWAT dudes. And I love to see the light bulb come on. And just the joy of shooting when you can tell a guy just like, yeah. I mean, I'm into guns because I'm a cop, but I don't do this a lot. But they start doing some drills where they're moving and there's some vision barriers, and they're like, this is, this is fun, man. I've never done this before. Like, and you see the joy that they have. I'm like, that's, that's good, because maybe that'll turn into you going to the range a little more shoot on your own, go in your own journey with it.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Right.

[Chansey]

It may or may, I don't know. But at least they're getting exposed to something different than just the regular stand Mundane.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about is changing the app, you know, the whole culture to where they want to continue to learn. Not they, they, they, not to where they are, you know, hating the day that they have to go to the range.

[Chansey]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, Yeah, I think that's, that's, that's a good thing. And, and so what are some range culture things that, that drive you crazy or that we need to kind of get rid of or question why are we even doing that? Why'd we, why'd we do that? What are some things that y' all see that you're like, okay, that, that range culture needs to change in this way. And this is why.

[Brian]

The welcoming side of it. Because a lot of times Brian looking at me out the side of his eye, I ain't got to look at him.

[Unidentified Instructor]

There's some chant coming. I'm telling you right now.

[Brian]

People, you know, here's something talking about get off your dead ass and on your dying feet.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Yeah. Well, it's, that's a real thing too. Whenever people come up there and they don't know. Yeah. Instead of blowing them off because you feel like it's, it's going to be a hard sell. It's going to be really hard to get them to do something, to shoot a certain way.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Whatever way that might be. So all of a sudden you just blow them off.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Yeah.

[Brian]

It goes back to what I said about customer service. For that, you know what, you're gonna have to get up and you're gonna have to put more work into some people than others. You know, that's a, that's a huge thing is the willingness to go help. Yeah, okay.

[Chansey]

For that.

[Brian]

That's a, that's a, that's a tough pill. And don't ever think, no matter what, you have a title, whatever it is, wherever it is, whatever, whatever. Farmers training unit. Don't ever, don't ever decide that you've arrived because there's somebody out there that will push your shit in with a gun. And they probably, they probably don't carry one for a living. Yeah. You know what I mean? And if you take that approach, then guess what? Then you'll, you know, you'll keep clawing, you'll keep working forward and moving forward with it.

[Chansey]

Yeah, no, for sure. I think one of the things that, that I, and I was guilty of for, for many, many years and now it's refreshing is that whole. When I look at my target and I'm shooting, I'm not so concerned that it has to be all in a little 4 inch circle. And I got a, every bullet just, you know, I remember it used to be when I used to carry my.45, I'm like, yeah, man, it knocks those big old holes and yeah. I'm like, yeah, but I'm like, dude, every time I shoot, I'm not hitting cardboard anymore. It's just bam. Bam. That felt good.

[Brian]

But before you knew any better.

[Chansey]

Yeah, I never. I stayed. I stayed at the same.

[Brian]

Same level.

[Chansey]

I'm accurate, but it's. It's marrying those. That, that. That speed and accuracy. And I think that's one of those. Those cultural things that when you tell people that, it blows their mind, they're like, what?

[Brian]

Like, yeah, whenever they see that you can. That you can be fast and crazy accurate with a gun. Yeah, whenever. Whenever they see that, they're like, well, wait a minute. Yeah, you know, wait a minute. And breaking that down, because historically, I mean, go back to the whole red shirt thing is people think that speed and accuracy and this. This has been this dead horse. I know it's been talked about a lot, but I think it's still a very prolific thing, is they think that speed and accuracy on. Are on total opposite ends of the spectrum, that you can't have one. You know, you can have one, but you can't have the other. They can't be together. Well, what do you think about somebody that. That, you know, there's people out there that can jerk a pistol and shoot a build drill, for example, and keep it in something the size of a baseball in under two seconds. Yeah.

[Chansey]

That's scary.

[Brian]

Inside of a baseball.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

At 7 to 10 yards. Okay, so how much more accurate do you want. Yeah. Than inside a baseball. Six shots coming out at that speed.

[Chansey]

Exactly.

[Brian]

Name a problem that. That won't solve in the law enforcement world, albeit that the justification has been established before the triggers pressed. I mean, come on, you're not going to go down that road.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Right.

[Brian]

Another huge thing, speaking of, is a big thing that. That you battle is people trying to. To layer tactics into the firearms training.

[Chansey]

Yeah, yeah. No, that is a.

[Unidentified Instructor]

That is a. I think the big thing for me is what I'd really like to like, because, you know, chanting.

[Brian]

I.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Some people don't like it, and some people don't agree with it. Like, you know, when they ask us, like, hey, can I get your drill sheet? It's like, we. We don't have a drill sheet, dude. Like, we have a list of every single drill that we do.

[Chansey]

Right.

[Unidentified Instructor]

And like, when we teach classes, I will throw, like, when I write out the drill sheet for, like, T Cool credit or whatever the case may be, like, I'll. I'll have a list of drills on there, and then I'll cross out whatever we don't get to. Yeah. Like, there's no particular order. There's no. There's no. Like, we have to go from A to B to C to D to E. Like, I think, again, I think that's the old red shirt mentality. And. And to me, that's. I hate to say it, but I think it's Lazy man.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

That's just reading a script. No, for sure. It's not teaching to the class. It's not teaching to the needs of the class. It's just reading a script, you know? And we can justify every single drill that we do, and we can explain every single drill that we do. We can justify why we didn't do a drill or why we extended a drill or whatever the case may be. We can justify that in front anybody. That's not a problem. But not like. All right, it's, you know, X amount of rounds and X amount of mags. Okay. We did all that. Move on to the next drill. Well, you. There may be 70 of the class that's not ready to move on to the next drill yet.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

But, by God, the piece of paper says we got to move on, so we gotta move on.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

You know, and. And I think that's a big one that we're trying to change, too.

[Chansey]

So what's your kind of idea or thought process on pack timers? What do you. What do you. What do you. What do you. I know my philosophy on them. I'm gonna see what. What you're.

[Brian]

They're good. They're good, but you can't rely on them. They can't be a crutch, because if all you do is chase what that thing tells you.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Then you're. You're throwing. You're throwing a lot of stuff out of me. It's not. Just the draw is not everything.

[Chansey]

Right.

[Brian]

Okay. I mean, I went through the time when I'm like, man, I've got. I gotta. The draw. The draw. The draw.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Okay, if you're. If you're consistent and you're jerking the pistol quickly.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

You're moving your hands quick and doing that, then. All right, then that's fine. Now, what are your split times? Well, some people, like. Okay, what are the splits? Well, the splits, Nate. I mean, you get down into the teens. Okay. I would argue that you don't need anything faster than that. I mean, if you can shoot 0.2os to 0.2. 2. 2, 3. You're doing good.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Okay, now you get down there in the 15, 16, 17s. I mean, you're. I mean, that's getting it.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

I mean, you. We're talking. That's some Ricky Bobby, right?

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Okay, well, what your splits are at given distances. Okay. You back up from the target. Okay. That's a thing. But what's the accuracy like? Yeah, okay.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Yeah.

[Brian]

You make the gun go off that fast, that's great. But if you got one shot that's good and the second one is, you know, I mean, it's all jacked up.

[Chansey]

In his dick or whatever.

[Brian]

Yeah. You know, Come on. Well, then what are we doing then? That means if something's going wrong, then you're trying, you're shooting the gun faster than your sights tell you that you can.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

It's very rare for chancing how to use timers that serve a true purpose and what a timer is designed for within a drill.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

We may use it as like a start signal.

[Chansey]

Right, A start.

[Unidentified Instructor]

You know, and then, and, and if. When we start talking about hit factor with the, with the students, whether it's, you know, a 20 year officer, we. We go hit factor with recruits. Yeah. We run drills with hit factor and we explain hit factor.

[Chansey]

Okay, good.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Yeah, I'm glad y' all touch on that and that. We'll break out the timers then and we actually do it to where Chancey will, you know, he'll demo it and he will be, you know, a. A very, very controlled but a very quick pace and a very good hit factor.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

And then I may go through and just be like, hair on fire, like run it five seconds faster than Chanty, but my hit factor suffers significantly. So. And, and then we'll go through and we'll do it like super. Not super slow, but we'll be very deliberate and shoot all A's and show them a hit factor and how that's how we introduce the whole. The marriage and the balance between speed and accuracy with any student.

[Brian]

Yeah, you got horrible. Crazy fast and horrible hit factor. You got middle of the road, high hit factor.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And then you've got super slow but low hit factor because we didn't have the speed element. And you put the three on the table and be like, okay, hey, look, look at the points and compared to.

[Chansey]

The time for that.

[Brian]

Yeah, right.

[Unidentified Instructor]

And you.

[Brian]

We write it out on a, on a target to where everybody can see it. Very simple. And then, and then, then they start.

[Unidentified Instructor]

To get the balance, the, the marriage between speed and accuracy.

[Chansey]

Yeah. I, I think for me, what, what I learned when the whole timer thing came out is this is the The. The start stop button to race on the line. And it would go down the line and who was the fastest? Oh, yeah. Oh, damn, that guy beat me by tenth of a second. Or fuck yeah, I'm the fastest on this line on this drill. And that's really what it was used for from my experience. And then now what I've seen is that it should be used for is like you said, the gather metrics for you to gather metrics to understand how fast this shit is for the bad guy. Like, I use an example when we teach cqb, like. Or active shooter. I'm like, okay, so if you're just. If the guy. The bad guy shooting point two splits, okay? That's five bullets in one second. That's how many people can die in one second. Just so you understand the metrics of this, okay, if he's shooting this, this is what it be. And so understanding how you look at these police shooting, what's the bad guy, how fast that motherfucker shooting. And you understand. Okay, I don't know what fast is, but fast has to be fast. I don't know.

[Unidentified Instructor]

You can have a fast.

[Chansey]

Yeah, I mean, you can have a. A 1.8 build drill, but you might need a 1.78 on the day that.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Right, Brandon?

[Chansey]

Yeah, right. Okay. It sure is, yeah. If you want to keep saying that.

[Unidentified Instructor]

Yeah, yeah. God dang.

[Chansey]

But it's like. But you have to use it for the whole metrics to understand where you are, what you're doing, and understand if I'm trying to shoot a 15, 16 split. Okay, my wheels are off. Or maybe I'm getting close. And now the 17, 18 for me, because I've been using this and I understand the metrics of that now I'm gonna understand. Well, damn, I can shoot 17 and 18s pretty consistent now. So now I'm starting to see all this, and I'm like, that's really. And I. I really stress that now with guys. I'm like, don't be the hard that I was. And that was what I was ingrained in. Now use it as metrics and use it as a tool to build on and to teach with, to show guys and then show them and then let them start figuring out for themselves.

[Unidentified Instructor]

You know, when we do hit factor stuff with students.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

No matter what the student level is, we don't ever announce it to the class. It's. We give it to the student. And then on the next run, like, your goal is to beat your Last hit factor. I don't want you chasing a timer or sprinting through this course and letting accuracy just be damned.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

So you could beat your buddy.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Instructor]

You know, your battle buddy or whatever it's called. And on the timer, right, you know, like, I want. If you go from a, you know, a 3.2, 34 hit factor in your next run, you're at a 3.5, 6. 8. Like, that's a. That's a good jump for that student, you know, That's. That's. That's a dang good jump, you know, and it.

[Chansey]

And it gives them permission to. To start getting on the gas and understanding, Wow, I got on the gas and my score went up and I was still accurate.

[Brian]

And you can look. You can look at a timer, too, if you're. If. If it's not just, okay, what's the, like, one shot draw? Yeah, you know, that. That's. I mean, that's.

[Chansey]

There's a time and place for it. Sure, but there ain't.

[Brian]

There ain't much time and place, I would argue.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

There's way much more to garner from that than just, okay, what's your one shot? You know, shot time. You can see where you're leaving time on the table. That's the thing. It'll tell you, too, is, okay, what's the target? So, okay, my accuracy is acceptable. Okay. But what is shot to shot? What is my transition time? Where my eyes lazy? Yeah. Okay, well, if it's a wide transition, obviously it's not fixing to be like something that shoulder to shoulder.

[Chansey]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Well, what do. We're purely working on the skill of shooting here. This is not, you know, and we. We constantly frame that to them, too. Like, guys, this is just purely objective stuff that we're working on. And now, how you subjectively apply that to the world for your SOPs, you work your GTPs, all whatever team. That's on you, cowboy. Yeah.

[Chansey]

Yep. That's a whole different conversation. So. All right. Anything else to add to that, man?

[Unidentified Instructor]

No, no, I think that's good.

[Chansey]

Sounds good. All right, boys and girls, we're gonna have chat three with them coming up. Actually, it won't be coming up for y', all, but for us, it will be. So. All right, train hard and get out there and shooting, folks.