Braxton McCoy: Iraq, Opioids, and Defending US Land From Foreign Governments & Corporate Giants

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Tucker Carlson Show

Episode: Braxton McCoy: Iraq, Opioids, and Defending US Land From Foreign Governments & Corporate Giants
Release Date: July 16, 2025
Host: Tucker Carlson Network

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Introduction to Braxton McCoy

Braxton McCoy, the guest of the episode, begins by sharing his humble beginnings and unexpected rise to prominence.

• Background:
  McCoy describes himself as a "regular guy," a horse trainer from Idaho who never aspired to politics. Despite his modest origins, he played a pivotal role in halting the sale of federal lands.

  [00:29] B: "I'm just a regular guy. I have no desire... to go into politics."

• Unexpected Leadership:
  He attributes his leadership to the collective frustration of many people, emphasizing that his efforts were part of a broader team movement.

  [01:21] B: "I think it worked because there were so many people that were upset... it's still a team effort at the end of the day."
  [01:56] A: "There are always huge forces that get embodied in individuals... it's connected to the definition of America."

Military Service and Experiences in Iraq

McCoy shares his experiences as a soldier, detailing his deployment to Iraq and the harrowing events that shaped his worldview.

• Enlistment and Deployment:
  Enlisting at 17, McCoy’s journey took him from basic training to a personal security detail (PSD) in Iraq.

  [04:14] B: "I wanted to go to war... take a swing back at the people taking a swing at us."
  [06:14] A: "You get a little disillusioned, right?"

• Early Combat Experience:
  Within days of arrival, McCoy encountered the devastation of war, witnessing the "highway of death" and facing the grim realities of urban combat.

  [04:33] B: "When that happened, it's like, okay, I don't like them, but that's still my brother."
  [07:43] B: "We drove up from Kuwait... poverty like you've never seen before."
  [08:07] A: "They never, never cleaned it Up."

• Personal Trauma:
  A pivotal moment occurred when McCoy and his unit were involved in a mission that led to a suicide bombing. This event resulted in the death of his comrade, Sergeant Can, and left McCoy severely wounded.

  [18:21] B: "I got hit by a suicide bomber... killed two Americans."
  [25:38] B: "He was the highest ranking guy there... put himself out there and died."
  [26:18] A: "Seriously?"
  [26:18] B: "Yep. He later deployed again to Afghanistan. Just incredible dog."

Recovery and the Opioid Struggle

McCoy discusses his long and painful recovery process, exacerbated by opioid dependence, which significantly impacted his mental and physical health.

• Injury Details:
  McCoy sustained multiple fractures and nerve damage, leading to a grueling recovery period that took nearly a decade.

  [28:11] A: "Do you remember it going off, the noise?"
  [29:44] A: "Most people have never had this experience."

• Opioid Addiction:
  His dependence on opioids during recovery led to deep personal struggles, including depression and spiritual turmoil.

  [51:33] A: "How long did it take you to get right mentally?"
  [52:13] B: "What was it doing to your mental health? The opioids."
  [53:24] B: "Probably like five years."
  [54:05] A: "Can you flesh that out a little bit?"
  [57:00] B: "When you say, what does it do to your spirit?... you have given control of you over to someone or something else."

• Overcoming Addiction:
  McCoy credits his eventual sobriety with restoring his sense of self and purpose, highlighting the transformative power of quitting opioids.

  [61:09] B: "Within like two years, all of a sudden, I felt like the same person again."
  [62:04] B: "Opioids are just that in a different form is what I would think."
  [64:25] A: "So typically, you know, you clean your rifles when the boyfriend comes over. This is the next level..."

Advocacy for Public Lands

Transitioning from his personal struggles, McCoy became a passionate advocate for the protection of public lands, drawing from his deep love for the environment and its significance to American identity.

• Public Lands Initiative:
  McCoy explains the importance of federal lands for hunting, grazing, and conservation, emphasizing that their sale threatens the livelihoods of small ranchers and the American way of life.

  [74:13] B: "America as a people... we developed as a people out here."
  [76:00] A: "That's nice. That's so... That's just perfect."

• Opposition to Land Sales:
  He criticizes both left and right-wing approaches to land management, advocating for a balanced "multiple use mandate" established in the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976.

  [76:30] B: "The multiple use mandate... held in trust for the American people for hunting, recreating, grazing and extraction of all forms, whenever it makes sense."
  [77:42] A: "They label, they label the spotted owl."

• Economic and Environmental Impacts:
  McCoy highlights the economic benefits of public lands through outdoor recreation and the negative consequences of unfettered land sales, including foreign ownership and environmental degradation.

  [89:35] B: "These guys are scraping by. The margins on cattle are thin."
  [90:32] A: "Food, water, energy... building blocks of any society."
  [94:12] A: "Why do you think that is?"
  [95:32] A: "It's part of a multi hundred year story and evolution."

The Sagebrush Institute and Future Efforts

McCoy introduces the Sagebrush Institute, a brain trust aiming to educate and mobilize support to preserve public lands and promote responsible conservation.

• Mission and Goals:
  The Institute focuses on reshaping the narrative around conservation on the right wing and restoring credibility to scientific endeavors that support sustainable land management.

  [117:03] A: "It's not an accident that the most articulate voice in this debate is you."
  [117:38] A: "How do we make good on that debt?... property on your portfolio?"
  [120:52] B: "Sagebrushinstitute.org is where we're disseminating everything."

• Call to Action:
  McCoy urges listeners to engage with public lands, support conservation efforts, and join the movement through the Sagebrush Institute.

  [121:10] A: "What are you doing?... trusted source for learning more?"
  [121:37] B: "We're just going to do the best that we can to message and get these ideas out in front of people."

Key Takeaways

• Braxton McCoy's Journey: From an unassuming horse trainer to a military veteran and public lands advocate, McCoy's life story underscores the profound impact of personal experiences on public activism.

• Defending Public Lands: The episode emphasizes the critical role of public lands in sustaining American heritage, small ranchers, and the environment, advocating against their sale and foreign ownership.

• Opioid Crisis Impact: McCoy's candid recounting of his opioid struggles highlights the broader societal issues linked to addiction and mental health.

• Call for Community Action: Through the Sagebrush Institute, McCoy seeks to empower everyday Americans to protect their natural heritage and ensure future generations can enjoy and preserve public lands.

Notable Quotes

• On Unexpected Leadership:

  [01:21] B: "I ended up kind of spearheading some things... but it's still a team effort at the end of the day."

• On the Impact of Opioids:

  [57:00] B: "When you say, what does it do to your spirit?... that is the way that I view it."

• On Public Lands Value:

  [76:00] A: "The left wants to turn nature into a Truman show..."
  [77:32] B: "We instantiated very powerful protections... the spotted owl comes in and the claim..."

• On Advocacy and Future Efforts:

  [117:38] A: "How do we make good on that debt?... the minerals, but I don't know."

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For more information and to support Braxton McCoy's advocacy, visit sagebrushinstitute.org.

Transcript

[A]

So you basically single handedly stopped the sale of federal lands. A huge expanse of federal lands. You're not a politician. You haven't been a public figure. I'm not exactly sure how you did that, but I'd love to know. Just give us the two minute background. Who are you? Where are you from? How did you wind up involved in this question?

[B]

Fundamentally, I'm just an idiot horse trainer. Horse trainer in Idaho. I'm not anything important or powerful or anything like that. I'm just a regular guy. I've always been a regular guy. I have no desire, despite how many people have tried to push me, I have no desire to go into politics.

[A]

That's probably why they're pushing you.

[B]

I, I want to write my books and hang out with my kids and ride horses and go fishing and hunting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, that's who I am. I don't, I've said this many times elsewhere. I, I don't think it's just me. I think it worked because there were so many people that were upset. Yes, to a degree. I guess I ended up kind of spearheading some things. I mean, maybe a way I would look at it is it wouldn't be the first time I've taken point and I'll take point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's still a team effort at the end of the day. And it has to be that way. If, if it be. If something this important becomes about one guy versus another guy, we'll lose if it, it can't be like that.

[A]

Well, and that's never a reflection of reality anyway. There are always huge forces that get embodied in individuals, but it's not so much about the individual, it's about the huge forces behind him and the horses, the forces that you harnessed. I think just watching fundamentally were like the great love of the land by normal people. Like people understand that land is essential. It's connected to identity. It's connected to the definition of America. And so don't treat it lightly. Maybe that's one of the lessons.

[B]

I think that's totally right. We talked about this at breakfast. But ultimately it's the love of my people and the land is a part of my people. Those two things are inextricably connected. Yes, I believe that fundamentally, and I don't want to be like overly pious or anything like that, but I believe fundamentally we're called to serve our people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So if it took an idiot horse trainer to, you know, in my view, save a bunch of small family ranches throughout the west, then, you know, so be it. It worked.

[A]

Where are you from?

[B]

I'm originally from southern Utah. I live in Idaho now, but I grew up down in. Well, I guess I probably shouldn't say, but southern Utah.

[A]

Big town, small town.

[B]

We're very small.

[A]

Not a lot of big towns in southern Utah.

[B]

No, I mean, maybe St. George has gotten a lot bigger, but. No, I don't even want to say the size. Sub. Sub. 1000 people by a lot, I guess.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your hometown is fewer than a thousand people.

[B]

Yeah. Cows outnumbered us probably 12 to 1, you know, and also legit rural. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We grew up. I grew up on a little horse place. My old man was the horse trainer, but, you know, he's an electric electrician. I think he had an electric engineering degree as well, but that's what he did to kind of make ends meet was the electrical stuff. And then we raised horses and, you know, cowboy a lot of day working, growing up, helping neighbors and family and all that. So you see the struggle from a young age, and right now, what's happening.

[A]

You'Ve allied it over an interesting chapter in your own life. I just asked you address it really quickly. You clearly don't want to talk about it, but you. You joined the military at some point.

[B]

Yeah, when I was 17, we. I was skipping school, as I was want to do at the time when I was at my cousins and we watched 911 happen on TV live.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And you know, back then there was that famous. I forget it was a pace. Some salsa commercial. You know, the New York City, so.

[A]

New York City, yeah.

[B]

And we didn't have any. There was no love lost between us in New York City. Right. I mean, that's kind of the whole point of the commercial. But when that happened, it's like, okay, I don't like them, but that's still my brother. You don't get to punch my brother in the face.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

So a lot of rural kids felt the same way. And we enlisted. And I remember my mom, because when you're that age, your parents have to sign for you to, you know, join. And I told her, I said, I mean, you can either sign this now and I'll get a little bit more money. You know, I'll go in as like a PV2 instead of a PV1 or whatever. Whatever. Or I'm going the day I turn 18. So, I mean, you. You're just delaying the inevitable if you don't sign this. So she signed it and I went to Banning and then to the war.

[A]

You joined the army?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At 17?

[B]

Yep. And, well, I think by the time I shipped, I had already turned 18, like for boot camp or basic training.

[A]

But you signed up at 17?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to go to war. A lot of us did. You're young and stupid, and a lot of cultural forces were telling us this was the right thing, and. And I believed it. You know, and plus, is wrongfully miss is as misguided as I was. I wanted to get, you know, take a swing back at the person in our mind, at the people that are taking a swing at us. You know, I think everyone.

[A]

Every American, most Americans felt that way. For sure.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. You get there in about three months in. You get a little disillusioned, right?

[A]

Well, yes. So you. You join, you go to Benning, then they ship you overseas to Iraq.

[B]

Yep. Yeah. I got back to my unit and they weren't going to deploy, so I. I volunteered for this other deployment because I just wanted to get there. And this artillery battalion needed a PSD team, so they were a personal security detail. So they were, you know, looking for guys. And we ended up with this kind of hodgepodge of random Moses of just guys that wanted to do this job. So we did a train up, learn how to do that. And it's funny, like in keynotes, I used to say we're to try to explain it. You know, if you're talking to bankers, they don't really know what PSD is out. You know, they certainly know what EP is. But I would say we're kind of like the army's idea of Secret Service, except for better trained or not as well trained, you know, but now I'm like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. A lot of us are rethinking questions like that. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. And so we go, we end up in radi. You know, the first thing that happened that really changed, I think was important, but really changed my view of the war altogether. We drove up from Kuwait. A lot of our guys airlifted, but we had all this heavy equipment. Well, of course the PSD team's gonna do security for. So we took the drive.

[A]

It's quite a drive, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, man, I've done it.

[A]

It's scary.

[B]

Yeah. You know, you first, you cross that border and, you know there's oil wells on. Oil wells on fire and, you know, busted up cars and then, like, you know, just poverty like you've never seen before.

[A]

Busted up cars from the first. Iraq.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yep. Yeah. I mean, just the highway of death.

[A]

They never, never cleaned it Up.

[B]

No. Yeah, it's amazing. And then we get to Scania and that night. Well, I shouldn't tell that story, but we stayed with some Polish SF guys and they were fun. They were like, very cool. You know, I just ended at that. And then we go from there. I believe. I. I don't think we stopped again. We refueled somewhere just south of Baghdad, Scania or something like that. And then there's this. Their highway system is like ours. For anybody who doesn't know, I mean, it looks like a western highway.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's this turn just past Baghdad where you turn toward Fallujah or Maddie. And right after that, you know, there's these compounds all over around there. They'll have like these walls around them and all like rich people, poor people, rich. It's almost like Houston. Yeah. Yeah. So we. We end up the lead truck spots an IED and it's dark. It's like 2 o' clock in the morning or something. And we had a Marine escort because we'd never been there before. So the Marines were taking point and then we were just kind of additional security. Well, this Marine comes and knocks on the door of our truck and he says, hey, do you want to go help us clear this complex? And of course, I'm like 19. Like hell yeah, that's why I'm here, you know, so I'm like grabbing. And the. What we were told is we're gonna try. There was a prayer rug. You know, they found this prayer rug. And that prayer rug had suspiciously an ID and some stuff left there. And then there was debt cord going back toward this compound. And the plan was to go in there, find whatever was at the end of the debt cord and take care of the problem. One version of taking care of the problem was going to be just blowing up the house and moving on. You know, we got shit to do, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm pretty excited because I'm thinking, oh my, I'm going to get a blow up a building, like grabbing extra flags and an 84 and like, or frag grenades, you know, and an 84 and. Well, we get to this compound, there's like a brick wall around it, and we're trying to find an ingress route. You know, you don't want to just go over the wall.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because who knows what's. So we end up finding a part of the wall that had been busted by a mortar or, you know, one of our guns or something, I don't know. And we were able to kind of skirt the side of the building. And I was in my mind the entire time. I kept thinking, I cannot wait to blow this freaking house up. This is going to be so cool. It's just like every 19 year old kid, right?

[A]

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[B]

That changed pretty quick. We get around the front of the house and we can see this deck cord going through into the home and we're like what?

[A]

What?

[B]

Let's go all the way around and make sure that it doesn't go through and out. Just in case they were trying to set somebody up, you know, some innocent people. And as I was looking inside the building, there was a generator running in inside and it was sitting on a piece of plywood. And I remember thinking that's, that is strange. Why would they do that, you know? Well, we get around the front and there's right at this stoop there's a bunch of sandals lined up and it's like oldest to youngest. So it's like dad, mom, kid. And then all the way down to this like 2 inch pair of pink like flip flop deals. And I just left my little sister with my mom who was roughly the same age. And man it, I went from wanting to do that to not wanting to do that really fast. And I think, I think that changed my war for me for the rest of time. I probably could have got sucked into being overly aggressive and uncompassionate but that really helped right from the jump. Solidify that these are actual people.

[A]

Oh yes.

[B]

Well luckily we go all the way around and the dec cord was running through, out into this olive orchard. And one of our guys, without warning, without warning us, hit a pin flare to light up so we could see the olive orchard. And my team leader just dove into the ground because he thought we were taking incoming. So he's like diving into this olive orchard and it ended up we were able to solve the problem without doing anything to the home. And it had turned out, at least from what we were told, that what they had done is captured that family and stuffed them into a cellar and then put that board, that plywood over the hole and then put the generator so we couldn't hear them down there yelling and they were hoping that we would just blow them up, you know, and we didn't. And I think that as I say, I'm sorry to just keep rambling, but.

[A]

You'Re not rambling at all. So this was like within days of getting into the country, I think.

[B]

Day two, I think. Yeah, yeah. It really helped understand the War, you know, we, we're fighting a war in cities, you know, and first of all, I've never even lived in a city. Like, you didn't really have to convince me that cities were bad.

[A]

But.

[B]

So.

[A]

So Baghdad was really the first big city you saw.

[B]

Oh, well, I mean, I had family in the suburbs of Salt Lake and stuff like that, but we would go eat at Lamb's Cafe. When I kid, Salt Lake used to be a fundamentally different place than it is right now. Thank you, Immigration. So I, I had been to Salt Lake, but you remember Salt LAKE in the 80s and 90s, it was totally different. Nothing like it is now. So I would. This was the first city I'd ever lived in was Rati when we got there. I mean, to the extent that you're living in it, right.

[A]

They like kind of hilarious. The first big city ever lived in was Ramadi, Iraq.

[B]

Yeah, it's true. Yeah. I've only ever lived in two Salt Lake when I was going to school for a minute and Ramadi. That's it. And it be at this point, I don't even know which one I hated worse.

[A]

Yeah, you know, Ramadi's probably pretty nice right now, actually.

[B]

Relatively. Yeah. And then after that is just pretty typical war. We, you know, one story, we, we're there for about a week or two and this guy, he's driving a truck, like a big truck, and we were on an op out in front of Faber Motti on Route Mobile. And we were kind of running a blocking position up there and this guy comes winging in, like he's just going to drive by us because he's got a cross hung on his radiator, like, lit up cross. And we shot just warning shots into the ground, like, hey, you gotta stop. What the heck are you doing? You know, and he jumps out waving his arms, I'm a Christian, I'm a Christian, you know, and we're like, you're an Iraqi, dude. I mean, we're happy that you're a Christian, you know, you're an Iraqi and that that's there. I think for the average American, it's really hard to process just how tribal those regions really are.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like he genuinely believed you guys are Christians, I'm a Christian. We're just same team without any, we need no more justification than that is kind of his worldview. And looking back at that, I wish, you know, he was kind of right.

[A]

I totally agree. I mean, he was right.

[B]

He was right. We should have just trusted him probably.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But so like we had some things like that. And then, you know, typical war stuff. Beyond that, some stuff.

[A]

How long were you there?

[B]

I think about seven months before I got wounded. It's six, seven months.

[A]

Something that happened.

[B]

I got hit by a suicide bomber at a glass factory on a security mission. And yeah, we were, we were, we're providing, just to tell briefly, we were providing security for a Marine element that was recruiting Iraq, Sunni Iraqis to become IP Iraqi police officers. What we, you know, Bremer and others had decided that we couldn't hire any Ba'. Athists. And they also seem to think that it would be a good idea to have Sunnis police Shia and Shia police Sunnis. And that's just, I mean.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Talk about ancient tribal conflict. You'd have to be. How could you be that dumb? You're conducting a war. This is basic level stuff. You have to understand the people, you.

[A]

Know, or people in general.

[B]

Yeah. So we're.

[A]

Why make it a humiliation ritual?

[B]

You know, it does feel like that.

[A]

Of course. It's the oldest. It's, it's right. It's why the peace settlement after the first World War, you know, the Western nations wound up sending African peacekeepers to Germany to humiliate the Germans. And, you know, how'd that work out? Right? What, how did the Iraq experiment work out? I mean, I don't understand. Right. So anyway, sorry.

[B]

No, no, you're right. And that, that's sort of Bremer era. And I, I try not to criticize people with the benefit of hindsight.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But some of this was so dumb. So we had to, we were recruiting Sunnis to know. Be shipped over to a allied country for training an allied Muslim country. I just don't know if you're supposed to say. It's not hard to figure out who was. Yeah.

[A]

Is there? Yeah.

[B]

And they were training them and then, you know, going to send them back. And so we were just. The security element is all. And it was day four of what was supposed to be a three day mission, typical Iraq thing. And I, I was out there and my interpreter was with me and we were just kind of asking questions to the people like, why are you here? And stuff like that. Because there was a lot of people there and they were there early. And as I've said elsewhere, these are not a punctual people, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we knew something was wrong. And this guy comes up and he's frantically yelling at me and of course I, I barely know any words in Arabic at all. And it ends up being translated to me as I saw a grenade with wires he was genuinely trying to tell us what he had seen and help us but we thought tripwire because he was saying grenade. Well then it ends up a couple minutes later we end up in a scramble and this, the semi truck crashes through this eastern perimeter that we had set up. And that morning we had been told to look out be on the look for V beds. So he crashes through vehicle born explosive device. Improvised explosive device. But so he crashes through and of course we everybody lights up the truck. You have to. And then you know now there's Iraqis scattered all over the place. Well in the. I don't know if they changed this after my time but in those years you were not allowed to hire any Bathurst for any reason into any government position. So now we have that.

[A]

So what did they do with their time?

[B]

Well yeah, you know so much of that war, even as a young idiot kid you look back and just think how strategically just so dumb.

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

But so the result of that was now we have Iraqis running all over the place and we've got to get them back into lines and you know, get this mission done. And the lines had to be person with no id, person with a government id. Person with a government ID that says Bathus on it. And we were separating them that way. And then eventually, really high speed guy, Lt. Col. McLaughlin we, Col. Mack we called him, he came out there to help us and some dog handlers and we were getting these guys in line and the next thing you know, suicide bomber goes off and this killed or wounded like 106 people or something like that killed two Americans. Our, our friend and dog handler Sergeant Can. And then Lieutenant Colonel McLaughlin and I, I try to say this as often as I can now. He was like 30, he was like 33 years old or something at the time and a lieutenant colonel and I was a 20 year old kid. I turned 20 over there and he was out genuinely in harm's way. Everyone knew that it was a dangerous situation and certainly Colonel Mack knew and he put himself out there and died and there. They don't make many officers like that. He was a very, very brave man.

[A]

He did not need to be there.

[B]

No, not even at all. He was the highest ranking guy there by I mean the other highest ranking guy be like an E7, you know. So he died and I got wounded basically everything in the same explosion. Yeah.

[A]

Do you remember it?

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah. It's. I don't know if the concussion knocked me out and then I woke up on the ground, but I was awake on the ground.

[A]

But do you remember the it was the truck went off?

[B]

No. A suicide bomber with a vest. So what had happened is our dog handler, or one of the dog handlers that was helping us, Sergeant can, his dog detected the bomb and grabbed this dude by the arm and was trying to pull him to the ground and then it, it went off. And amazingly Bruno, the dog that had done that, lived through the explosion.

[A]

Seriously?

[B]

Yep. He later deployed again to Afghanistan. I mean, just incredible dog.

[A]

What kind of dog?

[B]

Yeah, Malinois. Really neat dog. And it's funny, right before they came out there, he was sleeping on my truck, like the hood of my truck. And Sergeant Can's like, you know, do you want us to come out and help? And in my mind, I'm thinking, yeah, put that thing to work. He's just napping, you know, and he was a cool dog. We. We all liked him. But he lived in Sardin Can. Didn't, unfortunately. And he was an incredibly brave man, too. He had. I think this was his third tour. I think he'd been to Iraq once, in Afghanistan once before this. It might have even been his fourth tour. But he had been out at FOB hit on the Syrian border. And he requested to be. This is my understanding of it, he requested to be moved to Ramadi because they were. He was bored and he wanted to, like, fight. So he was an incredibly brave guy. He also did not have to be out there. And he made that choice and deserves, you know, admiration for his courage. He was profoundly brave. And he died. And then I. Me and a couple other guys got wounded. And for me, it was multiple bilateral femur fractures. My tibia was broken, both my hips, all the bones in my right hands. My right hand doesn't work very good. My radius and ulnar and my media. My right median nerve was transected at my wrist. So I don't really have much feeling through. Through that part of my hand. And like this, my fingers fused. You know, my little sister calls me Captain Hook because brain injuries and some broken ribs and broken back, and I was pretty busted up.

[A]

Do you remember it going off, the noise?

[B]

Yeah. It's funny, I remember the flash and the sound and then waking up on the ground, and there were bodies on top of me. I talked about this a little bit on Sean's. I should have done a better job describing it, but I could hear my first line leader, Johnny, yelling, just like every other Mick kid. They just call you Mac, so it's like, Mac, Mac. I can hear him, and I'm trying to yell back at him. And I'd had myself propped up on this elbow. I had, like, my left hand worked, but my left humerus was busted, and my right humerus worked. But then everything down here didn't work. So I was, like, kind of in this, and I had myself propped up, and there was this pile of guts underneath me. And when I was looking at that, I was thinking that I'd been blown in half. I mean, who else's guts would they be? And so I was, like, running an organ through my fingers, trying to see if I could feel it, sitting there thinking I'd been blown in half. I mean, I hadn't. We'd seen people get hurt really badly. But I. I had never seen that, so I wasn't sure exactly what that would look like. And I was trying to figure out if it was like a pancreas or something, you know, and, you know, I feel the anatomy, so I'm. I'm just like, winging it.

[A]

You thought it was your pancreas?

[B]

I did, yeah. And I also didn't even know if you could feel your organs in that way, you know, So I, like. I didn't know if you really had external feeling on them.

[A]

Most people have never had this experience.

[B]

Yeah, well, I was one of those. And eventually Johnny gets there and, like I say, I'm kind of propped up, and he. He started. What I didn't know was that there were like three bodies on top of me, and these organs belong to a different person, Iraqi person. And he started removing the bodies. And I could feel like, a little bit of weight go off and then a little bit more, and then those pulled out. And then I could see my hip bones or the top of my hips, not the actual bones, but like my uniform. And then they rolled me over and my. My legs were cooked, as the kids would say. And you could tell because they were not. It was like jello, you know, moving around. And your femurs, you know, your glutes and quads are so strong that if your femurs break bad enough, they just contract. So my femur was like, as both of them were. Like, the leg was now like as wide almost as it was long. Like, it just retracted like a slinky.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Which might have been the only thing that kept me alive, because I have. I can't even remember exactly how many holes it is, but between knee to hip on both quads is like 30 holes or something. So had I not had that, it sort of acted like an internal tourniquet and kept me from bleeding out probably. Because when. When they got my uniform cut off, you could. Every time my heart would beat, you could see the blood kind of ooze out of the through and throughs. I. Some through and throughs, and you could just. It was like. I always describe it as like squeezing a water bottle, but with rhythm, you know, and it just kind of pour out like that.

[A]

You could see this.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I had no. My. My blood pressure was so low. They weren't. Weren't giving me any. And it was good that they didn't. But they weren't giving me any pain meds or anything. You know, morphine will kill you if you don't have enough blood pressure. Yeah. So they started working on me, and then life flooded me or, excuse me, medevact me to Faber M. What made the holes?

[A]

What was the projectile that a.

[B]

Ball bearings.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah. And probably came from Iran, you know, probably. I mean, we don't know that this was a Sunni person, but a lot of the materials for that stuff was coming from ball bearings.

[A]

Do you have any of them?

[B]

Yeah, I've got. I think I pack around like 12 of them in my body still. And then I've had, like three more cut out since I got home that have kind of like surfaced in different ball bearings. Yeah, straight up.

[A]

Do you have them with me? No, no. Did you keep them? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Well, not all of them that they cut out with. I didn't get a choice in, like, Fallujah when they were cutting stuff out there, but at home. Yeah, I think I have three or four that I've had cut out of, like, my forearms and my rear end and stuff like that. So I like a little jar.

[A]

How big are the ball bearings?

[B]

Like, like about the size of a pea is what they'd be.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. I think we counted one time. I don't want to lie.

[A]

Like, mega buckshot.

[B]

That's what it was. Yeah. It's like getting hit with. Exactly. Yeah, it's exactly like that. And then there was one spot on my one quad where my right side where you could about put your fist in the hole. And there's been confusion since day one about whether that was a gunshot from an AK or just more ball bearings. Could have really been either.

[A]

Were there rifles going off, too?

[B]

Yeah, our IPs started just firing. I bet, so. And it's Iraqi policeman. Yes. I'm sorry.

[A]

So sometimes when people sell products on tv, I love this product. I use this product. There's the question in the mind of the viewer. Does this guy really use the product? Does he really love the product? Would he keep the product at home? Ask my dogs.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Now we are in a garage. I'm not going to tell you where it is because, again, this is prepping. But this is my garage. There's a gun safe. And this is a part of my stockpile of Ready Hour. Completely real. The second I put it here, the second Ready Hour sent it to me, I felt peace of mind because no matter what happens, we're not going hungry in my house. I moved a lot of fishing gear out of the way to keep it in my garage. And ever since it's been here, I Have felt the peace of mind that comes from knowing my family's not going hungry no matter what. Lastcountrysupply.com lastcountrysupply.com it can be in your garage along Don Junior here, guys. Are you receiving letters from the IRS claiming you owe back taxes as penalties and interest fees pile up? The IRS gives you no clear path to resolution. Don't speak to them on your own. They are not your friends. To reach a team of licensed tax professionals that can help you reduce, settle, and resolve your tax matters, go to tnusa.com and check them out. Solve your tax problems today. Call 1-800-780-8888 or visit tnusa.com that's 1-800-780-888. With the peace of mind that comes with having it.

[B]

And when that kind of thing happens, it's hard. Are they doing that intentionally or not? You know? But the best IP we had. I don't want to say his name for fear of he died, but his family. He died out there with us. He was extremely brave. Really good kid. He was like, 6, 4, like, 120 pounds. Yeah. He's the weirdest looking Iraqi you've ever seen. It's like. It's like running into Yao Ming, but in. You know, it's like when your brain's trying to compute, like, wait a second. Oh, he was a great. He was a great guy. I really liked him. I remember one time we were. I don't remember where we were at. On an op or something, and we try to teach each other the languages, you know, and he points to the tire on their technic. On their truck, and he says, tire? And I was like, yeah, good job. You know, and he's like, no, tire. I was like, wait, is that. That's how you say it in Arabic? You know, it's like this bonding moment, you know, like, yeah, dude, we were just all kids, you know, arm wrestling and screwing off and, you know, and punctuated every once in a while by war stuff, you know, And I think it's. I think that experience really matters. It's so easy to dehumanize people that you're fighting with at that level. And I think I was really blessed to have multiple experiences to remind me that they're all people, you know?

[A]

How long did it take you to recover from all that?

[B]

They. They retired me about a year and a half later, and then it took probably another eight years to get to where I could run. I didn't think I was ever gonna Be able to run again. And in, in the hospital, which it.

[A]

Took until you're almost 30.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Took like a decade to get better.

[B]

Yeah, I did. I think I was 28 when I ran the first time. Or seven, maybe something like that. Might have been 29. Whatever, whatever that year was. 2012, maybe. That can't be right, whatever year it was. Yeah, I mean, I could get around, but I, you know, I couldn't really walk or anything. I mean, I could walk, but not well. Certainly not well for a 25 year old, you know. And then I finally got to get up on the mountain again. I packed a cane on my back because I thought, who knows what coming down is going to be like, you know, and that felt really good to get up to a mountain lake and be like, holy, we did it. You know, after all this time, you know. And then I was coaching a little kid's baseball program. It was this girl that I was with. It was her son's team. So I was just helping. And I was throwing BP to him and this kid hit a ball. Batting practice, and this kid hit a ball to my glove hand side. And this is like eight years later or however many. And I took a couple of steps that just felt different. Like they felt almost athletic, if that makes sense. And I dropped my glove and I just jogged. I was like, I think I can run, you know, And I ran around the bases and then I called some of my buddies from the war and Casey and Johnny and a couple others. And Casey's like wears his emotion on his sleeve so he starts crying, you know, and, you know, I was like over here feeling like Seabiscuit or something, you know.

[A]

Did you, I should have asked. Did you go immediately back to the west when you got out of the hospital?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. They moved me back to my hometown. And I got really lucky in that my civilian physical therapist and my civilian doctor were really great. I did that in, in central Utah. The one guy, my civilian doctor, he was an mddo, so he leaned away from drugs really hard, which was a blessing because I was, you know, leaving Walter Reed. They had me on some ridiculous amount of opioids, like 380 milligrams a day or something.

[A]

How long were you there?

[B]

Four months.

[A]

You were on opioids for four months?

[B]

Oh, yeah, longer than that. Well, so in the, in Walterita, to take a step back, we basically everybody who gets wounded over there was contracting this infection and they weren't sure it was some bug that does not exist here. So they had us in quarantine. So I was in an ice. A quarantined ICU unit for three or four weeks because I couldn't leave ICU until one, I was stable and two, I could be in a wheelchair of some kind. And they couldn't do that without putting rods in my legs because I had external fixators on those big cage deals and you can't get the rods until you clear the infection, you know. So they were trying to clear this infection and there was some question about whether they were even going to be able to do that. I mean, who knew? And they finally got that cleared and then I developed gangrene.

[A]

Oh, come on.

[B]

Yeah, they were. I don't want to crap on Walter Reed. But they were doing some. Some guys were doing their best and other guys were what, changing through and through wounds with a. Like the packing with like a number two pencil and like that.

[A]

You know, it's in the United States at Walt Reed.

[B]

Yeah. In dc. But a lot of them were really great people and I don't want to crap on them. I mean, they helped me put me back together and they did a pretty good job. But so then I got that infection, so I couldn't get rods then, you know, I'm just kind of stuck.

[A]

She got gangrene at Walter Reed.

[B]

Yeah, it was horrific. And then I finally. They finally get rods in me.

[A]

Just picture David From's face when you're saying this. You know, just casually. Access of evil. We're bringing democracy no care at all for what it means for men from southern Utah and like destroying their lives. It just makes me upset.

[B]

And I was lucky. I mean, I could have lost my legs really easily. Really easily.

[A]

Did you get. I mean, how are your spirits? Did you get down?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I wrote a lot about that. You know, it was like a roller coaster experience at Walter Reed. But they for to back up even one more step just to kind of give an idea of how fragile everything was at the time they. I first went to Landstool and my understanding and this could be wrong.

[A]

Based in Germany.

[B]

Yes, they're met. They have a big medical hospital there. And my understanding, and this could be wrong, but what they would try to do in Landstool is really get somebody very stable and do preliminary surgeries and then send them. Yes, to Walter Reed. But they did not do that with me. They were like, we, you. We gotta get you to Walter Reed. So I was only in Lonstool for less than a week, I think is what it was. And so I was in tough shape is the only reason I'm saying that. And, you know, you're waiting. All I want to do is be able to go take a piss by myself, man. You know, you're. A couple days ago, you'd been a proud, young former athlete and soldier, and. And now you're this. You basically in hospice care, you know, and so, yeah, it starts to weigh on you. And I wanted to get rods in my legs so I could get a wheelchair and have some sense of independence. But you can do that without clearing these infections. And then I finally get the rods in, and they move me up to a neuro ward next to some other guys that had had, like, the. The same bug before. And then they put, like, a label on your door. I. I think that's all necessary. I'm not, you know, you should say, hey, this guy had this weird bug. We don't want to spread it, you know, But I'm up there next to this other guy, and things are. Now it's better because I can talk to a guy, you know, at least room to room. You know, we're kind of hollering at each other through the wall or, you know, the doorway and stuff. And then I had a pulmonary embolism, and it collapsed. I think it was my left lung. And then right back into surgery. Emergency, you know, they had to decide whether to put one of those IVC filter deals inferior. In your inferior vena cava, I think, is what it is. I guess I'm not good at anatomy. Largest vein in your body. And if it's like. If you think of, like an umbrella without a skirt on it and then some extra wiring to work as a filter, that's what it is. But they would deploy it like this. And then it had some kind of legs that would then open up and stick into the vessel to hold it there, and it would break up blood clots. Because what they were trying to figure out is if I had had. Because I had deep vein thrombosis already, which is like blood clots in your legs, essentially. But they weren't sure if I had had a clot originate in my lung or if it had traveled to my lung from my legs. So that's why they had to put that in. And then, you know, that was another. I can't even remember how long before I finally got into a position where they could even think about walking. And one day, my. I'm pretty sure I wrote about this too, but. So I'm sorry if I'm retelling stories but an uncle of mine came out, and he was really close to me, and we used to bow hunt and fish together. And then he got drafted by the Royals out of high school. And so he's kind of a neat guy, and I always looked up to him, you know, and he came out to visit and he. I told him I was like, they. They don't think I'm gonna be able to walk, you know, and he said, and I got a new young surgeon assigned to our team, because at that stage, you've, you know, you've got like, multiple trauma going on. That's like an actual surgical team that's like, planning out what to work on next and triaging and. Well, this guy got assigned on the ortho side, and he was like 27 and right out of med school and really smart and just kind of a go getter and type guy. And he said, I think you can do it, but you're going to have to get on your feet. Like now. We don't want to risk atrophying your muscles anymore, and, you know, you're just going to have to start trying. So my physical therapist at Walter Reed, his name was Solomon, and he was like this giant black guy. He played defensive end or something with Phil Sims on the New York Giants. And then he just did this as a job, I think mostly to be a charitable guy. He was a really neat guy. So we go down there to pt, and he said, you're gonna walk today? And I said, yeah, let's do it, you know. So he helped me up, and my bones, I'm like, my right hand is all in this cast thing. And then I've got a. Like a soft cast they put on my humerus because they were trying to let me have at least one ambulatory limb. So I just put up my arms on those parallel bars and however long those are, 10ft or whatever, and walked down and then back, and I was, like, shaking, you know, I mean, it hurt like hell. And anyway, I got to the end, and then Solomon helped me to my wheelchair, and he got my arms draped around him like a prom date or something, you know, he sat me down, and that was my first time I walked. And. Yeah, and so it's like the peaks and valleys at that point. You're, you know, you're riding really high, feeling like I'm gonna make it kind of thing, you know, what's it like.

[A]

To be in a hospital for four months?

[B]

Oh, my gosh, it was the worst. And I was just thinking, I Think the. The blood clot might have been right after that. Anyway, it's terrible. And I'm from a cow town, you know, and so I look outside and it's drab. In that area of D.C. is like Soviet block architecture.

[A]

Maryland. Yeah, it's go. It's. The government built it, all right. Right after. During and after the Second World War. And they did a terrible job.

[B]

It's funny. Like, even we couldn't learn the lesson of Patumkin villages. No, we just did it. Unashamedly.

[A]

We copied it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just made Walter Gropius in charge of America's architecture. No, I know. It's. It's in all that war is what did it. And you're not invited to think about what that means, but I'm not fully aware of what it means. But there's something. Something about that war totally destroyed the spirit of the country. The good war, that is. But anyway, sorry, so. But you're stuck there for four months. That's a. What do you do? Like, what's your day like?

[B]

Pt Occupational therapy. Watch Dukes of Hazards and King of the Hill. Like, you know, one time Brian Dennehy came, and the actor. Yeah. Really genuinely great guy. He sat with me for hours. We were talking about the Civil War, and he said, have you ever read Shelby Foote's trilogy? And I said, no. And he said, I'll be right back. And he went to a bookstore and brought me the trilogy, which was a really neat.

[A]

Ryan Dennehy, the actor shows up at your bedside and then buys you Shelby Foot. Civil War trilogy.

[B]

Yeah, it was. It was really great. So then I had something to read, so that was, you know, helpful.

[A]

But you had to wait for Brian Tenney to bring it to you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was great. And I. I don't want to crap on too many people. Orrin Hatch was very helpful, despite our political disagreements. He was a very kind man to me.

[A]

He's a nice man.

[B]

He was.

[A]

And very connected.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. He was able to get things done. And a good guy. Yeah. So there, you know, there were people that were coming around, trying to boost the spirits. Brad Paisley, you know, his. His stepfather came one day and just sat with us for, you know, hours, just because it's nice to talk to a normal person.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, he was a wonderful man. Yeah. So it wasn't all bad, but I did sure as did not want to be there. You know, I wanted to go home. I missed my grandpa, you know, and I just missed home. And I don't I enjoy. God blessed us with tremendous beauty out there, and I try to appreciate it.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

And I wanted to see it again.

[A]

So what'd you do when you got home? So at this point, you're in your 21 or 22?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I.

[A]

And the army severs your term. I mean, they discharge you, I guess.

[B]

Not yet. They. Oh, eventually, yeah. They retired me. Before I retired, I was basically just doing outpatient care at the civilian hospital. And I was lucky. My PT guy, he used to be the PT guy for, like, the Olympic wrestling team. And I loved wrestling growing up, so it was a good connection. And. And of course, he's good at what he's doing and has seen a lot of young guys hurt pretty bad, so that's helpful as well. And so it's just like that and being depressed as hell because you're a.

[A]

Professional patient at this point, you're still a soldier technically, but your job is to go to pt. And.

[B]

Yeah, it was not good. It was not good. Yeah. And in. In retrospect, that program was not a good idea. As much as I wanted to get out of there. It would have been, I think, this bore out in the data. Like, I don't think it was just me, but I would have been a lot more mentally healthy if they would have just forced me to stay, you know, doing o. Outpatient stuff at Walter Reed, because then at least I'm around guys who get it instead of, like, my family. That's. Yeah. How could they possibly. It's not their fault. I think that would have been better. But. But certainly I was happy to be out of there, so. Yeah.

[A]

How long did it take you to get right mentally?

[B]

A long time. Quit. Quitting pain meds was the biggest thing.

[A]

What was that like.

[B]

Realizing how bad it was my. And sorry for cursing.

[A]

Realizing it's warranted in this case. You're allowed.

[B]

Yeah. There's a certain family I'm not too thrilled with either. The realizing that it was a problem, like, really messing my mental health up was motivation enough. And then my doctor was really great. He.

[A]

What was it. What was it doing to your mental health? The opioids. And the family you're referring to has got to be the Sacklers.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, enough people are mad at me right now that I don't know how many more fights I want to pick, but.

[A]

Well, if you can't criticize America's richest drug merchants, then, like, what? I mean, at a certain point, you have to be like, I'm sorry. It's Just true. Right.

[B]

I had two friends die from opioids while we were recovering. You know, you drink some alcohol and die because, you know, you're. It represses your ability to breathe, of course. Suppresses rather. And then drink and pass out and die. So I was lucky that didn't happen. But. So, yeah, I don't care.

[A]

But what does it do to your spirit? That's the one thing. I don't think we talk about that very often. I was on opioids for one day for back surgery a few years ago, and not enough to get dependent, but the first thing I noticed was it transformed me inside. Like it crushes your spirit. That's one day of it. And you were on it for how long?

[B]

Years. You're not. You're definitely not the same person. You know, it's linked, It's. I have read. I don't allegedly also link to this suicide epidemic. Of course it makes you a different person. And I, I try to be very careful about not pretending to be more pious than I am. But I do believe in spiritual war. And I do think that there is really something to ingesting stuff like that. Like, like, I mean, something real, not just some chemical changes in your head.

[A]

I couldn't agree more. Can you flesh that out a little bit?

[B]

Well, yeah, I think you should be very careful tempering with, like allowing things into your body. You know, the, the term spirits that originated, because it was my understanding of this, is that that term came from. People thought you were putting spirits into your body, of course, and you probably are.

[A]

Now you're speaking of liquor, alcohol, right? Yeah. Well, there's absolutely no question.

[B]

So opioids are just that in a different form is what I would think. And, you know, people get mad at me for this, but I think the same thing about other drugs. Like if you're communicating with some entity because of something you've taken.

[A]

I would.

[B]

I think I would take that pretty seriously because you.

[A]

You people hate it when you say that I've done those drugs. So I feel like I have as a child. So I feel like I. I have some authority on it. And I was talking to a friend of mine, someone I really, really, really like, the other day about it. And he was talking about, you know, whatever, trip. Taking hallucinogens for good reasons, by the way. But he said I was visited by demons. And. And I said, do you think that they were real? And he goes, oh, no, no, they're real. You know, I'm not a. I try not to be a judge Judger because I have no basis for judging other people, period. However, I wanted to say if you think they're real, then maybe don't fuck with them at all. Like that's not good. That's scary. It's really scary.

[B]

It's terrifying. Yeah. I mean even I went through an atheistic period. I'm deeply, genuinely, deeply ashamed of that period of my life. I think I was mad at God more than not believing. Seraphim Rose writes some stuff about this. I can't remember where, but he says the, the. It's not that the atheist disbelieves in God, it's that he believes in God and doesn't understand him and is sort of therefore angry. Of course, certainly described me.

[A]

Kind of prefer. I feel like the atheists have a better shot than the. Than people just don't think about it.

[B]

Seraphim Rose said, not that I want to speak for anybody here, but he says in a follow up to that, he says something to the effect of those people are actually more your brother than the people whose Christ is only on their lips.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I, I mean that. What do I know? But that sounds right to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what was the effect of the opioids on your spirit?

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry, you keep trying to get me.

[A]

No, no, not at all. I just think it's interesting and I rarely hear people talk about it. I. There's a lot of talk about the effect of opioids on your respiratory system. You know, does Narcan work? I think it's all important and I'm not mocking it. However, the condition of your spirit may be more important than anything and I never hear that discussed.

[B]

Yeah, well, I. You're not the same person. And I mean, that's what I mean with like bringing things into yourself. We use euphemisms like that. Like why I wasn't the same guy at that period of my life. Well, think about what that actually means. Like what do you mean you weren't the same guy? You know, if you believe in body, soul, spirit, or body, soul, mind, however you want to think of it. What do you mean when you say you are not the same person? Because like did your soul leave and go somewhere else? What do you actually mean? And I think what you mean is that you have, you have given controls, the control of you over to someone or something else. I mean, that's the way I view it. And that, you know, can be wrong and I would sound like an idiot or whatever, but that is the way that I view it.

[A]

You don't sound like an idiot at all. And you're clearly not wrong. And that's like a central piece of Christian theology. I mean, Paul says at great length in Romans, this is Paul. This is like the hero of the early church. This is like one of the. After Jesus, the founder of Christianity. And he's like, I do all these terrible things that I don't. I don't want to do. And that's because the sin which he describes as sin is like, taking control of me. Like something from outside came into me and is making the decisions.

[B]

He says that.

[A]

And I don't think that's far from the experience of every person who pays attention to his own behavior. Like you do. Kind of like, what is this? Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. You always want to figure out what's animating you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if you don't think about that, you're probably being driven by something. There's probably a reason you're not taking a step back to think about it. You know? So when you say, what does it do to your spirit? I really believe that it's you. You've given control over to something else. And so it changes you in every way. You know, you become dishonest, angry, bitter, deeply depressed. And when I say angry, I mean at God. You know, there's a line in there somewhere where he says, even the devils pray. I think that's kind of like that. It's like, why would. What is the. What are the devils praying to God for? Because if we believe in a redemptive God, surely. And again, I. I don't want to get things wrong, and God forgive me if I am, but if we believe in a redemptive God, then they're not praying to ask for forgiveness, or else maybe they would be able to get it. I don't know. So what. What are they saying in their prayers? Well, probably. They're probably bitter, you know, saying, can I believe you did this to me? Or whatever it may be. I don't want to speak for them either, and I want to be careful here. But I think the source of the bitterness, the root of it is being angry at God. And I think opioids do that. And the minute I got.

[A]

Opioids make you angry at God?

[B]

I do think that I do. And drinking too much, I think does it. And definitely, you know, anything that. Anything that makes you not you is gonna lead to that eventually. In fact, like all sin, they say, again, I'm not. I. I don't want to pretend to know things because I don't But I think that the end result of all sin is ultimately anger at God. And what you're mad about is knowing what you have done, you know, so getting off of those, let me just.

[A]

Add a vehement amen to that. I totally agree.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And I don't understand anything either, that's for sure. And may I be punished for pretending I do, because I don't. But what you're saying is, I believe that's true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you get off opioids. What happens then?

[B]

It was crazy about. I don't want to misremember here. Ten days to two weeks later. It was so weird. Genuinely felt like a cloud had been lifted from my vision. Like. Like the world felt and looked different to me two weeks later. And I don't know how to describe it beyond it just everything felt to some degree pretty again and like that my mind actually worked again. Rather than just thought negative things all the time, I could. I could, like, think about the things I cared about. And.

[A]

How long were you on them, do you think?

[B]

Boy, like, probably. Probably like five years.

[A]

Oh, gosh.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's the first half of your 20s?

[B]

Yeah. When you're the dumbest person you're ever gonna be. On top of that, I had gotten to where I was taking way, way less. But I still, like, had, you know, I had those hooks.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then just getting rid of them all together was totally life changing. And within like two years, all of a sudden, I felt like the same person again. And I usually connect that. It's funny we're having this conversation because I had never thought about it in these terms. I. I usually connect that to being able to run and hike again and going bow hunting and. And I wonder if it wasn't actually like the time away from that thing. I'm sure. I'm sure it mattered. Yeah. So it transforms you into a different person. Totally different person.

[A]

You said that you lost two friends from od. Accidental, I guess. Od. But you must have known a lot of other people who were also on opioids for years. Did they recover?

[B]

No.

[A]

Oh, gosh.

[B]

I know one person and I don't want to give too much information because I don't want to, like, hurt his feelings or something, but he looks like a different human being now. I mean, it's been so long. I saw a picture of him recently and I hadn't seen him for a couple of years and I had to look at it for like five minutes because it just didn't even look like the same guy. You know, I have another family member that went through the same experience. Looks, looks like a totally different human being now. The one friend who physically, physically like face, you know, like a different guy.

[A]

What are the, Pardon my ignorance. Like what are the changes like for long term opioid use?

[B]

I don't know. The look on them is the like shrunken, you know, their eyes look different, like deeply set.

[A]

So it's not just a weight loss or gain, it's like deeper than that, I think.

[B]

So like this, like the spark is gone, you know? Yes, it's, they're horrible drugs. I, I made my daughter when she was like 13, I made her sign a contract. We notarized it and everything.

[A]

So typically, you know, you clean your rifles when the boyfriend comes over. This is the next level beyond that, the notarized contract.

[B]

And it's in my gun safe actually. But I made her sign this contract that said she will not do any drugs, drink any alcohol or have any premarital sex till 21. And if she's able to do that, then I'll just give her $5,000 in cash. But if she's able to take that same thing till she's, I cannot remember whether I put 23 or 25, then I'll just give her $10,000 cash. You know, to a 13 year old that, I mean, that's a lot of money to me. But to a 13 year old that's like you're offering them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and the reason for that is I've seen how dark that world is and how many people, when it gets your hooks, those hooks in you at a young age, it just ruins kids. I mean, it ruins them. Some of them never ever recover and they're were otherwise going to be, they're good people at root and they were otherwise going to be great productive members of society and, and now they're just not, you know, just the anguish, the.

[A]

Suffering that it causes.

[B]

Yeah, you've talked about this before, but that, I mean you, you can, this stuff is borne out in data. You can see the deaths of despair across rural America.

[A]

Yeah. You know, you drive through rural America. We both live in rural places. And you see in people's houses, you know, there are certain houses that are just tidy, squared away, the cordwood is at right angles and like you can tell these are happy, productive people. But there are as many homes with, you know, broken children's toys on the front lawn and that are just a disaster. And you know, everyone's poor. It's not a matter of. But like those, you know, that's like depression, the disorganization, the chaos. I think that comes from drugs.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Although my yard is a wreck right now. I'm ashamed of it. But I have three young boys and I've been caught up in some other BS for a minute.

[A]

Well, but there's a difference between, like the happy chaos of small children and the kind of, you know, multi year. Just like, I just don't give a shit at all. Do you know what I mean?

[B]

I know exactly what you mean.

[A]

Yeah. The not caring is a sign of drugs, I've always thought.

[B]

Yeah. Deep depression, for sure.

[A]

So what you do after. So by this point, I mean, you said it was two years before your head fully cleared.

[B]

No. Oh, yeah.

[A]

After you got off dope. So that's. I'm just trying to do the simple math here. So you're 20 when you get wounded. Right. That's 27.

[B]

I know. Yeah. And I had a divorce scattered in there and, you know, a string of broken relationships and. And then I finally started feeling really good and life was going well. And then I met a new girl and she's wonderful. And my entire life changed, like, everything. I mean, it was already on the path or else it wouldn't have worked with her because she's like a well put together person. And then I was like, back to living the life of my youth. You know, when I first started dating her, I went down. My old man has back problems. It's like every person that's rode colts their whole life, he needed help. And I remember when he called me, he had this buckskin horse and he needed rode. And he's like, well, you're younger. And I was like, well, sound like my body's in better shape than yours, but I wanted to do it. So I go down there and. And this is. Now I'm doing good in life and at least mentally. And I get on this cult and we're doing good. And what my old man didn't tell me was that he had a. He would get scared when you'd go to get off. But my old man didn't want me to know that because he wanted me to kind of solve the problem for him. So I go to swing off and he starts bucking and it twists my knee pretty good. And anyway, that was my first time back on a colt like that. And then we go sit in the bunk house and have like a couple beers and you're just feeling really good, you know, like, wow. I'M like back to my real life. And so then I started riding colts again and back to normal. And that's where I'm. I'm at now. And I was guiding hunts for a while. Elk and deer and help with some lions in Utah a little bit and occasional bear.

[A]

Huh.

[B]

And just, you know, back being a normal kid from the mountain west and. And it's great. It's like, really.

[A]

So how did you go. So that's. Thank you for taking the time to tell that story. How did you go from there to like being on Sean Ryan show and like becoming a figure of, you know, public adulation and, you know, attacks as well. Like, you become this like, polarizing figure. How'd that happen?

[B]

I. There's two pieces to it. I got involved in public lands advocacy around 2015 or 16. There was this, there had been this push the Public Lands initiative, which was like a different version of the same thing. Like Rob Bishop, who I think is otherwise a good guy and you know, some other names were involved in that. And I, I just got involved with some organization and learn more about it. And the more in, the more I've learned, the more my opinions have shifted, you know, more into the direction of conservation, not less so like that. So that's kind of the root of that. And then I've spent like the last five years on Twitter arguing with people. I mean, they will write. They would write me like horrible emails over the public lands thing. And these are right wing people.

[A]

Like, you're pretty liberal, I assume.

[B]

Yeah, it's just incredible. It's like my own side, very angry at me.

[A]

Oh, I've been there. Yeah.

[B]

And then something flipped this time. Oh, but I should tell you how the Twitter platform. I had been doing keynotes for a long time. A source of income, and I enjoy doing depending on the group, but it made up about 25% of our annual at the time. And I had guided this guy from a big construction company in California, really good guy. I guided him on a hunt in southern Utah, got to be friends with them. And then he wanted me to speak as a keynote at this construction conference in Las Vegas. It's a real big one. So I'd been booked for that. And then this freaking Covid thing starts happening and it's evolving in the news in real time. And I'm supposed to leave on like Saturday morning to go speak on Monday. And he texts me at like 5pm West coast time on Friday and says, bro, they canceled the whole thing. Like not just speeches, but like the Entire conference. And it's hard to blame anybody for doing that at the time, given the way. Yeah, the machines were or the mechanisms were turning. So I had been very careful with my right wing opinions publicly for years because I wanted these people to still hire me to. I mean, you know how the, you know that, you know, bankers and things like this, they don't, they don't like people with opinions like me. So they don't hire people like me.

[A]

No.

[B]

Speak to a lot of tech organizations and you can about imagine how that would go if you're a right wing. In fact, one time, I'm sorry, I'm doing the Trump weave one time, a gal had hired me and she's really wonderful person. She comes up to me after a speech and says, this is really great, everybody's really happy. But could you lean less on the like, you have to learn how to pull yourself up message? Because that sounds too much like bootstrapping. And that's a right wing thing. I'm serious. And so that made me paranoid about sharing my actual opinions on anything. So I would never talk publicly. And then this Covid thing happens. And I had created a Twitter account while we were not. We were night cabin in the fall on the fall herd. And we. This friend's ranch, they have like a Frito truck that they built into like a cabin. Like they took the lid or the top off and like made a cabin cabin out of it. So we're in the Frito truck and I create a Twitter and I get on there and I say something to a left wing politician and it kind of got some traction. I was like, oh, crap. I deleted it, you know, because I had made it with my real name and I did. I thought I could just like slide in there slowly. But that was in, you know, like September. So I do. I deleted all my tweets and then just didn't even use it anymore because I was scared that I wasn't going to get hired. Well, when this Covid thing happened, that one got canceled and then the next one and the next one. And then, you know, you start getting emails. It's like all seven or eight that we had scheduled for the year got canceled like within a week's time. And so I just got on Twitter, I told my wife, I said, you know what? Fuck it. I'm just going to tell people what I really think about things. And somehow that grew into, it's not a large platform, but a platform. And then you end up on Sean Ryan. You know, like, interesting.

[A]

So this one, I would just say on the outset, I'm completely 100% on your side, probably for the same reasons on this question. But it is one of those rare issues where it doesn't break down along left and right at all. And I probably should have asked you to explain what the issue is an hour and a half into this or whatever. I haven't even asked you what is the public land? What's the, what's the divide on public lands? What are public lands? What do some people seek to do with public lands? And what's your view of that?

[B]

We sort of. This one organization I was with for a while, I implored them to not let this become a liberals who hunt kind of thing, or else we're going to lose. They were trying to evangelize the left on public land protection measures, which is just dumb because at the time there was zero aggression coming from the left. It was all from the right. And I said, just let me message this. I understand right wing people. What's. I am one. Like, let me do this. And they wouldn't. So I think a, A sizable portion of blame belongs on the left for the way they've treated public lands over the years. What they have done is they, first of all, their central ethos is just. They don't like you.

[A]

Oh, a hundred percent. So they don't want you on the land.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Or your dogs on the land. They don't. They don't. Oh, I have dealt with it.

[B]

Yeah. They want to build like a Truman show and you can get on like a electric train and look at it or something.

[A]

Right. Ah.

[B]

And then the right wants to sell it. Yeah.

[A]

And.

[B]

And so that's kind of the crux.

[A]

That's nice. That's so. Oh, that's so good. The left wants to turn nature into a Truman show experience where you get an electric train and view it and the right just wants to sell it. That is like the. That's just perfect.

[B]

Well, and we, when I say we, I mean better men from older times figured out the correct compromise to this problem. And it's basically what we have as a status quo right now. Yeah, the multiple use mandate, you know.

[A]

And what is that?

[B]

That got established in 76 under Flipmo, which is the Federal Land Policy and management act of 76, but that had rolled lots of older conservation laws into one, into kind of one thing, and establish a very clear multiple use mandate. In fact, I think it's the very first paragraph of the bill. And the multiple use mandate says this. These lands Are held in trust for the American people for hunting, recreating, grazing and extraction of all forms, just whenever it makes sense. I mean we can't go clear cut the redwoods. I don't think anyone would even. Well, people would advocate. Certain people would advocate for that, but I don't think anyone's doing that right now. But there are other places that we should be logging and we can, you know, figure this out.

[A]

Yeah, you can manage the forest.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And by the way, you should. It's a better forest when it's managed sense. I mean I have a lot of experiences. It's like. It's great.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

If it's done wisely, prudently, like it's good.

[B]

Exactly. Maybe the best example of what you're talking about here is the whole spotted owl stuff.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

They label, they label the spot. So there's the Endangered Species act of I think 73. Nixon signed it and we basically put into the. We put into effect some of the most forward thinking in this kind of way. I hate how the left has ruined useful words.

[A]

Oh, I know.

[B]

But we instantiated very powerful protections on. The main goal is we don't let species die here because we as a people think that that would be a sin because God made them. That's the way I view it. And I think that's what. That's how Nixon thought. Well, the spotted owl comes in and the claim. So they made it threatened. And the claim was that this owl needed old growth in order to survive. It couldn't survive in second growth or new growth. And second growth is like something that's been cut down, replanted and then right.

[A]

After you whack the forest, this is what comes up. It's very thick and.

[B]

Yep, yep. And they had said that they can't survive that way. On and on. Well, the loggers were saying we see these things in second growth all the time. What the hell are you talking about? And so then we end up with, I believe it's called the Northwest Forest Plan. And that was in the early 80s if I'm remembering correct. Or late 80s when that happened, if I'm remembering correctly. And that locked up something like 56 million acres and just killed timber towns all through Washington and Oregon and had an effect on northern Idaho and destroyed.

[A]

Yeah, Western Montana. Yeah.

[B]

And then it turned out down the road that the loggers were right. That spotted owl was living in the second growth stuff. And it actually was not the harvest that was killing off. It was the. Some other kind of owl whose name escapes Me was out competing. It.

[A]

Yeah, it was intra owl competition.

[B]

Yeah. And it was an invasive owl, of.

[A]

Course, so there's probably a Chinese owl.

[B]

Yeah, right. I know there are some loggers who think they did that on purpose. And knowing the way, seeing the way. I don't want to be too conspiratorial, but it would not shock me if one day we learned that people were doing that on purpose because what they actually hated was loggers.

[A]

Oh, I know.

[B]

They don't even love trees, they just hate loggers.

[A]

No, they don't love trees. No, they'll cut down the trees to put a solar farm in in a second. Yeah, in places where the sun doesn't shine very much. No, they hate trees because they hate God and they hate God's creation. Of course, it's never about saving nature. They're destroying nature. They're spraying chemicals into the atmosphere to manage the weather and poisoning the, you know, I mean, it's like these are the enemies of nature. These are the offshore wind farm people, which.

[B]

Yeah, those wreak havoc.

[A]

Oh my gosh. On the fishery. Of course they don't care. So they're not for nature. And don't ever allow a professional environmentalist to tell you he loves nature. You know, I mean, I'm sure there are some who do, but. But in general, the environmental lobby is opposed to the environment, you know.

[B]

Yeah, totally. Exceptions and rules. Right. And the, the exception doesn't make the rule. Well, so that's kind of where we, where we're at. But then if you look at what happened here more recently, and this is important for understanding how we got to this new push for sell offs around 2016 or so. A lot was happening right then because poi and some other things. But around then, some environmental groups really born out of scientists at universities who actually do care. Regardless of what people try to tell you. A lot of those people actually do care. I mean, they've recovered all kinds of species because of these people. You know, Gila trout and black footed ferret and the state, the greater sage grouse. You know, these people do care that. Well, they come up with a science based management plan for this because the environmental groups were pushing and saying you can't do any oil and gas, oil and gas extraction in sage grouse country. You'll kill off the sage grouse. Well, these scientists come up with this plan and say, don't list the, don't list these things as threatened. What if you, Mr. Oil and Gas Company give us, you know, work with us on this Plan. We think if you do it this way, it can be done without killing off the sage grouse. So the oil and gas companies give some concessions and then they do. And what do you know, like they worked. And yeah, oil and gas is still being extracted and the sage grouse have recovered.

[A]

Yeah, there's really good sage grass hunting. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

So we now we have people who can solve these problems. But if you look at the way the right wing, the tools that they use, or the levers that they use to kind of pry on the right to get them behind sell offs is like, well, you're going to get locked out of it by this thing or that thing. They're going to come spotted owl, you, you know. Well, we figured out a solution to that. And as long as we keep doing that, there's just absolutely no reason to give up our birthright.

[A]

So what is the idea about selling federal lands? I mean, there was a recent proposal which I think more than any other person you killed by bringing attention to it. You're really hated by some people for that. But just leaving the people out of it, like, what was the idea? What was the proposal?

[B]

It changed a bunch of times, but the proposal was the way it was being sold was, hey, we're just trying to get rid of 0.5% of this land. But that's not how it was originally written. Originally it was like a mandatory sell off of 0.5% of the land and then like 249 million other acres to be evaluated, something like that. Which means that's a floor with no ceiling. Now why do they want to sell it off? My gut tells me minerals, but I, I don't know.

[A]

Sell it off to whom?

[B]

Well, I don't know. They're not telling you. And we do a lot of oil and gas and mineral extraction on public lands right now. But a thing that I think viewers need to understand is when they do it on public land, there's a royalty paid back to both state and federal government. But if you own the miller, the mineral rights or the subsurface rights altogether of your property, you're not paying a royalty. I'm sure you're paying taxes, but you're not paying a royalty whatsoever.

[A]

How, how does that work?

[B]

Well, it's. If you own the rights, I mean, this is like.

[A]

Private land.

[B]

You're talking private land. I'm sorry. Yes, okay.

[A]

Of course, right. If you own the mineral rights, you own, you own the minerals.

[B]

Well, and so if you're. The original thing was we're Trying to balance. I mean that's how they got it in a budget reconciliation bill. Right. As we're trying to balance this budget, we need a little cash flow here. That's what this is for. Well, why would you sell the mineral rights then? Like wouldn't you keep the mineral rights if what you were trying to do is solve the debt problem? Wouldn't you keep that asset on your portfolio if. Well, yeah, and they didn't. So I think that the. I think there are.

[A]

Didn't. So they were going to sell the land with the mineral rights. So that means the state and federal governments would never benefit from the extraction past the sale.

[B]

That was what the. That is how the final iteration read to me and I think to everybody else that, you know, plus it's a 900 page bill. So you're feeding it to chat GPT, you know, and trying to figure out where this stuff is. And I think the most of the public land stuff was like page 202 or something.

[A]

So what would. Well, that's interesting. So that, I mean that kind of proves that it's not about solving the debt with sale of public resources.

[B]

No. And that they used a term fair market value in there. Well, on a lot of these, I mean you've been to southern Utah on a lot of these chunks that they were trying to sell off. The fair market value is like 500 an acre. I mean you're not gonna.

[A]

500 an acre.

[B]

Yeah, I mean it's alkali soil with like almost nothing as far as bunch grasses. It supports an ecosystem, but it, you know, to run to make it produce. If you're thinking in terms of gdp, which I sometimes I feel like this is all those people are capable of. This is unproductive and.

[A]

Right. Unless you're a lizard farmer.

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

So fair market. So that establishes that it's definitely not about the debt because you're either pulling money out of the coffers or selling it off for next to nothing. So this is not about the debt. It's about something else. And this is why I think minerals at one level or another.

[A]

Was it in a. Was there any restriction on who could buy it?

[B]

They had said, I'm trying, you know, there was like seven iterations of that and I'm trying to remember what the last one said about that, but I don't think so. I don't think there was any kind of guardrail. And I think Utah has like 34000 acres owned by the CCP already. I read that Seriously? Yeah. I mean, I don't know if that's true, but I read it on Twitter, so it has to be.

[A]

But there is foreign ownership of land in Utah.

[B]

Yeah. Well, in Canada, I think they own. I think they're the. The largest foreign owner of agricultural land like tillable in the U.S. and then, you know, Saudi owns a freaking ton of stuff down in Arizona, and they're putting all kinds of guys out of business down there. Like they'll punch a deep well because they've got money, lower the aquifer. And then the rancher guy, he can't afford a thousand foot well, so then they're able to buy up his stuff because now it's dry. So there's all kinds of conflicts spread out across this region. I just can't see why you wouldn't want to limit having more of that problem. But it doesn't.

[A]

Why wouldn't Congress pass lawsuit? We can't have foreign ownership of land in the United States. You can't sell the country to other countries.

[B]

That's, I think, the primary question. I don't understand that at all. So far as I'm aware, I can't buy property in Canada. Right. Unless I become a Canadian citizen.

[A]

Yeah. A lot of Americans, I own property in Canada. Sold it because I was worried about all this kind of thing. But certainly you can't buy Mexico. Right. So. No, I don't understand why. I mean, that just seems like a really easy fix. Foreigners don't get to own our country. So pretty happy to have. You can do whatever, come on vacation here. You're great, we love you, but you can't own our country. Right.

[B]

Right. Yeah. Recreation. The last number I read was $1.2 trillion contributed to our economy through outdoor recreation. Yeah, that's extraction by another means. It might not be pull. Pulling oil and gas out of the ground, but that's still a form of extraction. You're extracting wealth off of the thing. I mean.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And with the multiple use mandate, now you're doing both. It's like best of both worlds. You're. You're maximizing value in that way, you know, so.

[A]

So why should. I mean, this has been, as we both acknowledge, kind of a partisan issue. You referred to liberals who hunt. I think there can't be more than eight of those. But there was this effort in the last 15, 20 years to like create these astroturf groups, you know, hunters for Kamala. But. But also, it's always hilarious, you know, loading the shotgun through the muzzle kind of groups yeah, but. But there are also more serious efforts to do that where these are clearly fake groups and they're trying to subvert something here. So that's. It's all real, but it's kind of a matic. I think that, like hunters, some fishermen, ranchers, people who train horses. Like, these are not Kamala Harris voters. These are almost all conservatives. So why would you, as a product of that world, someone who shares the values of that world, why would you be all of a sudden on the side of not selling public lands? Why is this a con. Why do you have a conservative position on public lands?

[B]

I fundamentally, I think I've said this before. I'm not sure, so forgive me, but it's. I love my people.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I mean, that's why. I mean, I love the land, but my people don't exist without the land. And small ranches.

[A]

Wait a second. If the country's an idea, as long as you have that idea, you're part of it. No, sorry.

[B]

I think we probably agree on this one. I've said this elsewhere too, but some people on Twitter will say it's not magic dirt, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I understand what they mean when they're saying that, but it. But it is magic.

[A]

It's 100 magic dirt. I completely agree.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I keep some in my travel bag so I can sniff it when I'm out of the country. No, I mean for real.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

Well, yeah, but why. Why do you.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[A]

Why do you so flesh that out?

[B]

If you don't mind, I think you have to start at the. I believe America as a people. I believe the ethnogenesis of that happened on our frontiers. Like if you. At least, you know, history is a thing that's interpreted. So people get mad when I talk about history sometimes, and I'm like, okay, well, this is my interpretation of it off. You know, like, this is the way I see it. The Revolutionary War was in some ways a very European war. I mean, we, you know, we kind of did some guerrilla stuff. So that was a new invention in terms of European people doing stuff to a degree. But it was kind of a civil war between Anglo peoples.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But then something happened as we, you know, from Manasseh Cutler in the Ohio river valley to the 49ers, where we developed as a people out here. You know, if you stop somebody on the street in New York City and you said, well, maybe not there now, because it's like 60 foreign born, pick an actual American city where you're not traveling internationally and stop Americans on the street and ask them what it means to be an American. They're going to say things like hard work, perseverance, you know, grit, love of country and, and county and all of that. They're going to use all of these ideas that actually tie back to knowing what our people went through crossing those planes, you know, fighting Indians and fighting, you know, Mexicans and then the Brits again and you know, the Spanish. And all of this, you know, all of that stuff fed into where we finally somewhere, I don't know exactly when, I don't think I could put a pin in it. But at some point we became a people that are Americans. We never describe ourselves in the same way as it seems like Europeans do to me. So I think that's a very important piece of this. And I also think it's somewhat ironic that the area where the frontier closed is now like the primary source of the people trying to kill the country off. And then another thing.

[A]

Why do you think that is?

[B]

I don't know. Well, resentment, leftism. I think leftism is animated by dark things. I don't think every leftist is a bad person, but I think that that belief system is fundamentally animated by envy. And that's like the earliest story in the book.

[A]

And hate.

[B]

Yeah. So I think it's that. I don't think it's too much more complex than that. Look at, think about the Civil War, the Reconstruction, the period of reconstruction. Had there not been the pressure relief valve of the frontier, we would have fought it again. Because that boot on the neck of those proud southern people was not going to last forever if they don't have somewhere to go. And we have towns in Idaho that were established by confederates and they, you know, they had had enough of that shit. And so I think it's, it's an important part of our identity, a very important part of our identity. So I think in many ways this entire. I'm sorry I'm doing such a bad job addressing your actual questions. I'm like pontificating over here.

[A]

Well, I think to describe what you're saying requires what you're saying, which is it's part of like a multi hundred year story and evolution.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it's also one of the reasons that the country was able to assimilate. People from different parts of Europe hadn't always been friends. I mean the Irish and the English, you know what I mean?

[B]

Totally.

[A]

And like the true melting pot was, was Europeans from like non friendly countries didn't have that much in common, actually. I know now they're all just white people, but the English and the Irish didn't feel that way.

[B]

No.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And.

[A]

But they were able to come together and build this amazing country. And. But I think it's through the process that you're describing like that. That really is America.

[B]

Absolutely. And then now, as a modern people, we. There's no. There is absolutely no way. Like small ranches, a lot of them are running, like, 90% of their ground on public allotments and 10% on deeded. And it's been this way for a very long time. Like, basically since the TG, the Taylor Grazing act, which was, I think, 36, 1936, another one of these things that rolled lots of laws into one. But it essentially protects the right for Americans to graze on these public grounds to protect the cattle industry, small family farms and that on that 10% of deeded acreage, at least where I'm from, much of that is going to be like their alfalfa, their hay production for the winter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then, of course, a pasture to feed on in. In the winter. So my people from. Just won't exist anymore without this. And some people will say, oh, well, then f them, this is welfare for rich people. It's like, no, this is welfare for people who are scraping by, if you want to call it welfare. I don't. I don't at all view it that way. But these people are scraping by. The margins on cattle are thin. And if, you know, if you kill grazing, it is over. And we are already, by the way.

[A]

Everyone in the country's on welfare at this point. And people who are paying, you know, half the tax rate that you are through the carried interest loophole. That's not welfare. I think it is people who are, you know, taking their income as dividend and as interest income and paying half the rate of people who work for a wage. I don't know. I mean, what. All of these things are aimed at the same group, which is legacy Americans from the short end of everything. I don't think that's an accident.

[B]

No, no. My. My family went out there in, like, the 30s, you know, the 1830s. Not the 1930s.

[A]

You know, one of the 1830s.

[B]

Yeah, I think. I think 36. Somewhere around 1836. Yeah, they were. Yeah, they moved out. Well, a lot of them were Mormons and so pre.

[A]

DoorDash.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So 47 is. Is when the Mormons got to Utah. But a lot of them started that journey west, you know, back around that time. Like from Connecticut, New England area.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Started, you know, upstate New York. Yep. Yeah, a lot. Like, most of my family's been here since, you know, the late 1600s, but they were over here, Yankee type people, and then they, you know, moved. Well, I don't mean that as a pejorative. Like, that's where they were at, like, kind of, you know, in New England. And so, yeah, it means a lot to me in that sense. But another thing that the. The people who are not connected to this industry should think about. We have less than 90 million beef cattle in America right now. Our herds. Our beef herd is smaller than it was in, like, 91. Like 1991.

[A]

How.

[B]

Killing off small.

[A]

Like, almost 100 million more people. Maybe 100 million. I mean, because there's so much lying about population.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Because there's so many illegal aliens here, but we have a much larger population than we had in 91.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, what is like 330 million or something?

[A]

I mean, I. It's. I'd say 360, but, like, go outside. I know it's insanely crowded. So there's. Just as with GDP and inflation and every other relevant number from which we make decisions about how to run the country, it's a lie. Population is, I think, the biggest of all lies. Now we're saying, I mean, three years ago is we've got 10 million illegal aliens. We've had 10 million illegal aliens for 30 years. And now since Trump got in, they're, like, admitting. I think it's more like 60 or 65 million illegal aliens, foreign nationals living here in violation of our law. So anyway, sorry, no, no. Pardon. Pardon the lecture, but, like, I agree with. We've got more than 330 million people in the United States.

[B]

Yeah. And that ties into this whole idea of a housing shortage. Someone said, well, illegals are not impacting housing. And.

[A]

Who said that?

[B]

I mean, the leftists were saying this, and one of my buddies had such a good way of countering that. He said, I don't know. I assume these live inside, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm sorry, that's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So food security is a national security risk. I think Hegseth even endorsed this idea recently that food security is national security to a degree.

[A]

Of course. Food, water, energy, those are the building blocks of any society, slash, civilization. Food, water, energy. And if those. If you don't have those, I mean, that's why people go to war. That's why populations. That's what, you know, migration is about. I mean, everything is about those three things. And. But only in America that's been rich for so long, people be like, no, it's really about self esteem or, you know, or whatever. No, it's about food, water and energy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you think so our beef herd is smaller than it was 35 years ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So why is it, is that Brazil?

[B]

Oh, it's a lot of it is, yeah. Import imported beef and the, the artificial deflation of prices and due to illegal immigrant labor. You know, every time they go to one of these packers, it's like 1600 arrests. You know those.

[A]

The whole plant is illegal. Yeah.

[B]

And you're not going to tell me these people don't know they're doing that? And then I think there's about, I think 30 plants in the US process 80% of the beef in this country. So now you've got. You're also sort of as a byproduct, putting your old local butcher out of business. He can't compete anymore with like $6 hamburger and a tube from Walmart that's got 70 animals packed into it. He can't compete with that either. The local guy can't. Yeah, it's a huge problem. And then if you add on the sell off of public lands and squeeze the last of these guys, they're hanging on with their small family ranch, it ain't going to get better.

[A]

What role is immigration play in this story?

[B]

I mean, it's fundamental and both legal and illegal. A thing I would say to right wingers to really try to think about. These are low population states, they're high land mass, but the density, population density is extremely low. I think Wyoming, I've said this elsewhere, but I think Wyoming has around 300,000 voters. But that was 300,000 people voting for Trump, which means we don't know what the next turnout will be because he is a once in a lifetime figure. There's only one of that guy. So presumably there's going to be less in the next election cycle. Who knows? Well, 50,000 new votes if you sell us off and fill it up with illegal or legal immigration, whether it's H1B, H2B, whatever. I guess those people aren't voting, but you know. Aren't voting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then, you know, illegals or just imports and of whatever variety you flip these. Not a ton of electoral votes there, but it is.

[A]

Wait, so the idea was to take public lands and like build housing for immigrants on them?

[B]

Well, they say not, but there's a crapload of money going into immigrant resettlement in the West. I say this everywhere, but Randoland on Twitter, go look at that. And you can see these grants for yourself. It's like 4 million, 15 million, you know, 50 million, whatever. Going to all these different NGOs and state governments to bring, to put refugees. Like, I see burkas in Idaho Falls now.

[A]

What? Idaho Falls was in southeastern Idaho always. I think it was the most Mormon town in the United States. Certainly most Mormon city in the United States.

[B]

I had to be up there. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Had to be like that in Provo or whatever. Old Provo, not New Provo, but you see burkas there.

[B]

Yeah. And this is another thing. I always get called a racist. And I don't have to hate someone to not want to be replaced by them or have my children replaced by them.

[A]

I don't hate People are still calling you racist.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[A]

Still.

[B]

Oh, it's just incredible.

[A]

Boy, that's 2,000, so 20. 21.

[B]

I know. Yeah. That word's over.

[A]

Oh, shut up.

[B]

I know. Exactly. But I don't. And also, here's an important thing to this. That person in a burqa did not choose to live in Idaho falls, where it's 40 below for a week, a year. You know, they moved here from whatever desert, and now they're living in some of the harshest climate in the US they didn't choose that. Someone put them there. And then you have to ask yourself why someone would put them there.

[A]

I've seen a lot of it. Yeah. Let's empty the refugee camps of Somali refugees in Kenya and fly them to Lewiston, Maine, an impoverished, dying mill town full of French Canadians, and just see how that works.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Didn't work.

[B]

No, of course not. And I love my people and I don't want. I don't want them to be replaced. But from a. Just a. A basic. In terms of politics, practical level, if you flip these states in the west, you're done. You're not winning another. You're not beating the left with the electoral College. Not without Wyoming, Utah to some degree. Nevada. Like, if you lose all of those, if they all go the way Colorado did, it's going to be over.

[A]

Yeah. And Colorado is not just a Democrat. It's like affirmatively evil will take your kids away unless you let them become trainees kind of thing. It's just like, it's, it's. It's a place that Christians are having trouble living. It's so anti Christian.

[B]

Yeah. In Colorado and, And some of the best people on Earth Live there.

[A]

I couldn't agree more. But I'm just saying it has ramifications. It's not just that like, oh, they get, you know, they had a sort of conservative senator, now they have a sort of liberal senator. It's like, you know, when the revolution comes, they're not joking at all. They're not. It's not like what we're going through now where it's like do a Fox News hit and you know, we're fighting the liberals. Okay. No, it's like can't live there anymore if you believe in God.

[B]

So they. Are you familiar with the wolf reintroduction out there?

[A]

Very familiar, yeah.

[B]

And you know who's driving that. And it's not working. And look at where they put them. They did it via referendum. That won by 1%. So the front Range voted to dump wolves on ranching communities is what they did. Because they hate them. I mean, that's why.

[A]

Why do they hate them? Because the ranchers are just so mean or just hate the idea of them, man.

[B]

You know, some. Sometimes the left is just hysterical by nature. So it's hard to know if they've just been propagandized into independent minded white.

[A]

Christians are the, are the enemy. Why they hate Russia. That's why they hate the ranchers. I mean, let's be honest, let's stop lying.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's probably it. And then they also think the cows are destroying the climate. And so beef production is a great evil, despite the fact that beef have largely reoccupied that you ecological niche that bison used to. So you're gonna have to replace those with something.

[A]

I think you're actually giving them too much credit by trying to be rational. It's like they don't think that, you know, Jeff Bezos's G4 fleet is wrecking the environment. But they do think that cow flatulence is. They, they pick the group they hate and then they backfill the justification for crushing them. So, oh, it's climate. We hate the ranchers because of climate. No, they hate the ranchers because of who they are.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

I mean, obviously so is. So the idea was that this land was going to be used for housing.

[B]

I mean, that's what they told us. But if you, why wouldn't you just.

[A]

Kick out the 60 million people here illegally?

[B]

Between that and too hard, something like 16 to 18 of homes in Utah are owned by investors. It's like, well, the state could pass a law that would solve this problem real fast. You know, like I Don't. I'm not against anyone making money and I'm not one of these hate people because they're rich. I've got a friend of mine who's a billionaire, is nicest guy in the world, he does all kinds of good for people. One of the best people I've ever met. So it's not that. But also, I mean, I'm not gonna fellate the people who are trying to ruin me for greed, greedy reasons. You know, I'm not gonna. They are not my friend, clearly, and they feel the same way right now. Sorry for being fishy, my back is stiff.

[A]

But.

[B]

So it's not about housing. If it were about housing, there are solutions to that and they're not doing that. They're trying to, you know, I don't want to impugn motives, but it ain't housing. It's not. They're trying to do something else. Oh, and then from a legal perspective, I'm nearly certain of this, please correct me if this is not right, but when you are building affordable housing like apartments and condos or whatever, that comes with stipulations. And I think part of that is that land has to be sold for very cheap to the developer. And it's like 50 acres, not, you know, 3 million. I mean, how many acres do you need? What kind of apartment complex are we building over here? You know, 3 million acres. It's very clearly not about affordable housing or your kid and his ability to buy a house.

[A]

So here's the problem that I have with it and why I'm so grateful that you have done what you've done and why I want to talk to you is I'm worried about what the end stage of our debt crisis looks like. So when you're in debt to a lender, that debt is secured with assets. So you take a car loan, your loan is secured by your car, same with a home mortgage, they can take your house. The United States is trillions in debt to a bunch of different countries investors all over the world, but Japan, China, South Korea, et cetera, Europe. And we can't pay it, obviously. And so how do we make good on that debt? Well, what is the United States? The United States is a continental sized landmass that has some of the most valuable resources in the world. World, which would include the largest bodies of fresh water in the world, the Great Lakes, which would include some of the biggest oil and gas deposits, energy, and which would include some of those productive farmland in the world. So I'm really concerned that at some point. It sounds stupid now, but at some point, not so far in the future, we're going to be like, well, actually, the Chinese own Lake Superior. I'm serious. I know.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

And there are oil and gas fields and the nation itself. And so if you set up. I don't think that's crazy at all. Like, in the end, the US Dollar is a joke, and everyone knows that it's backed by nothing. Full faith and credit. So what do we have? Well, we have federal lands, actually. Land, minerals, water. And I just don't think you want to set the precedent in motion where you could just sell those if you needed to, because they don't belong to the current occupants of the White House or Congress. They just don't. They belong to the people.

[B]

Correct. And another thing they lie about is the actual numerical value of that land.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There was a number floating around 100 trillion, they were saying. And I kept thinking, how on earth did you get to 100 trillion? That just does not make sense.

[A]

It's just a round number.

[B]

So I started plugging in to the, you know, calculator, like, let's see what this would actually work out to. And if you sold at fair market value every piece of federal land in Idaho, It'd be like 110 billion. That is not going to touch the national debt in any serious way. Not to mention now you're losing all the, the, the other revenue streams that come from that, of course. So I just. It's not. I don't believe it's about debt. I think if you did it all by. If you did it, let's say you could get to 6.2 trillion if you did 10,000 an acre or something like that. It's. I'm having a hard time remembering what I came up with, but 6 trillion is a crapload of money. But we spent 2.2 or whatever it was in the CARES Act a couple of years ago. I mean, that's. In the grand scheme of the way we spend. That's not a lot of money. And now the everyday guy is just losing.

[A]

What are you doing? I mean, are you going to retreat from public life having achieved your goal?

[B]

Well, I know. I don't think it's over. In fact, they're already pushing forward again. I started. My friends and I started a thing called the Sagebrush Institute. It's just kind of a small brain trust of people that are much more qualified than me. And we're. We're just going to do the best that we can to message and get these ideas out in front of people. I take no money from it. We don't even have a bank account right now.

[A]

It's absolutely in no way my kind of foundation.

[B]

Yeah, we in no way is it about money. We collected emails and we're just trying to disseminate information because I think we need a lot more than one voice out on this stuff. Because here, like, here's an example the everyday American hears, well, why don't we just do a new homesteading act? And that sounds good. You're like, oh, that'll take care of our kids. No, it won't. All that, first of all, the, the very last iteration of homestead acts, I think the average, more than 50% of the people that claimed land on that left it after two years. So you're just doing a sell off with a slight delay if you do that.

[A]

I think they this in Zimbabwe.

[B]

Yeah. How about we homestead act Rhodesia, you know.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

So we're just going to try to pass information as best as we can and also help. I think we have a golden opportunity right now to do two really important things. One, reshape the narrative and make conservation cool on the right wing again. I think zoomers have been let down by everyone their whole life. They just like constantly getting screwed by someone and we got a win here and we cannot let them down. We want to help them keep stacking wins here. We want to be something that doesn't end up screwing them in the end. So the next time they push, we can help Zoomers. And if we can shift this narrative with zoomer zoomers and tell them like, this is yours, man. This belongs to you. Regardless of what people tell you, this is yours right now. You can go to Birch Creek Valley in Idaho right now and go camp and fish and do whatever you want. Get off your ass and go do it. It'll be fun, you know, and it's yours. Experience it. If we can get them to understand that, then that is a huge accomplishment for posterity in the future because then they'll want to protect it forever. And that'll give us at least until they have grandchildren, which would be great. And then the second thing I think we have a real opportunity to do is shift the narrative in science back to people who actually want to do real science. I think Covid for righteous reasons made a lot of people very skeptical of any expert class and that, I mean, I am one of those people. But there are scientists out there who genuinely really want to save this stuff. That's the guy that's trying to save the Gila trout or whatever.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So I think we can help them establish some more credibility. Like, no, we actually. We as scientists. Not me, but them as scientists, don't actually want to pave over the Mojave Desert.

[A]

No.

[B]

You know, so we have an opportunity to shift two narratives that are really important. If we can do that, then I think we've got another couple generations of security, you know, from my children and your children and grandchildren, and that's what I care about. So that's what we.

[A]

It's not an accident that the most articulate voice in this debate is you, and you spend the most amount of time outside, and maybe part of it is convincing people that nature is more compelling than porn or video games or anything that's happening on your phone. And I. I mean, the decline in hunting and fishing licenses nationally, as much as I so enjoy being alone, you don't have to compete for a spot because there's nobody there. I do think that's ominous. Right?

[B]

Oh, yeah. It's terrifying. Yeah.

[A]

People don't even know what public lands look like. Right.

[B]

I mean, it's. It's hugely important. Yeah. That one is. There's a lot of advocacy groups that are trying to get people into and, like, get into bow hunting and stuff like that. I think that's great. And we should try to do more of that. And then just think of, like, shooting. How many kids are going out shooting on public land? I see this weird narrative every once in a while where guys will be like, they won't even. They won't even let you out there to shoot a. The leader of a huge gun rights organization tried to tell me this a couple of days ago, and I was like, first of all, why the hell are you trying to fight with an ally? And then secondly, what are you talking about? That's. Everyone shoots on that stuff all the time. So even things like that matter, like, go out, take your AR15, and go shoot a bunch of rocks. You know, have a good time at a distance, so.

[A]

Because Ricochet.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't shoot one four feet away. Don't. Adam Kininger, your buddy.

[A]

Whatever happened to him?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Does he still exist? Adam Kinzinger. I hope he. I hope he's happy. Sad guy.

[B]

There was a funny. My brain is doing a squirrel thing, but one of the funniest tweets I ever saw. I don't. You know, me and this guy disagree at times, but right after that happened, first thing in the morning, Josh Hawley tweeted, I wonder who Loomis will shoot today. I laughed for like an hour about that. But, yeah, we need to get those kids engaged. And there are some college programs that do this kind of thing. A friend of mine runs one of these at a university in the west, takes kids out and teaches them how to hunt ducks and, you know, shoot. And so we need to do much, much more of that. And that's important as well. And then one other thing, I guess if I could say, and I apologize, I'm so bad at answering your questions directly.

[A]

No, I love it.

[B]

I can understand why someone from Maine would be thinking right now, well, I'm never going to see that. Why do I care? There's one answer I think I would give to that that no one else does is we are union. And even if you don't want to come out and enjoy the land that is yours, help support us. Because we support you with various policies that help protect your fisheries and your way of life up here. And we are a union. So, you know, we help you. Please help us back. That kind of thing. Same thing with, like, I've heard other people say this, and it's true with like the farm bill, which is. Although it's like 60 snap now, but the farm bill helps, you know, a guy in Iowa or whatever, you know.

[A]

And that farm bill, 60 food stamps.

[B]

Oh, I think it might even be more than that. It might even be more.

[A]

Yeah. I. Yeah. I don't think the real threat is Iran. I'm just saying, I mean, that's. Wow, that's sad.

[B]

It's horrible.

[A]

So if people want to learn more about you and about these debates and I think anyone who's made it two hours into this trusts you. I do. Where do they. Where can they find. I mean, because some of this stuff is complex. So, like, where's a trusted source for learning more?

[B]

Very. Sagebrushinstitute.org is where we're disseminating everything and there's an email sign up and that's it. We're just going to keep pushing. That's it. Eventually, it's possible that we could try to bring in small funds for like, leaflets and stuff. But I'm not getting paid. Nobody on the board's getting paid. That's not happening. And we'll be straight up. If that ever. Like, if. If there ever becomes a point where we're asking for money, we will always be straight up about it. And you will see that. I believe that charity should be for the sake of charity. So no one's paying me to do it. I can promise you that. I agree with that, and we'll live by that as best as we can. And that's where you can go to just sign up and we'll start emailing you. And, you know, this is what's happening with wolves or whatever. Keep people informed.

[A]

Thank you. That was amazing.

[B]

Thank you, sir.

[A]

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