← The Tucker Carlson Show
The Tucker Carlson Show
Buckley Carlson: Writing Trump’s Speeches, Trump’s Shocking Texts to MTG, and the Epstein Cover-up
02:20:58
Loading summary
Transcript574 lines
- [00:00]
A
VRBO makes it easy to claim your dream summer spot with early booking deals from homes with pools to poolside loungers. When you book a vrbo, you don't have to reserve any loungers. They're all yours. All you have to do is book early book with vrbo. For at least 10 years now, hating Trump has been the surest possible indication of of liberalism. If you really hate Donald Trump, you're probably filled with hate for the United States. You probably hate whites, probably anxious to give kids the COVID vaccine and castrate boys and put non binary people on the swim team or whatever. But there was pretty much for about a decade a one to one correlation between disliking Donald Trump, hating Donald Trump, Trump derangement syndrome, and liberalism. Or it's sort of a weird American manifestation. But now we're in a weird moment, an even stranger moment, where a lot of people who really like Trump are very disappointed in Trump. In fact, more than disappointed, feel betrayed or enraged, feel like suckers, feel like they've been taken for a ride. How could I possibly have supported that given what it became? A lot of people seem to feel that way. But do a lot of people seem to feel that way? Do they actually feel that way? Well, according to polls on CNN, 100% of MAGA voters still support Trump. Is that real? Well, it's really hard to know given how fraudulent so much polling is. So we thought we would speak to the one person we know who sincerely supported Trump from the very beginning, wrote speeches for Trump in 2015, voted for Trump three times. New people within the Trump White House, worked with the Trump White House. And all along that period, 10 years, supported Trump in public, not on television, which is easy, but in his own neighborhood, which was 100% Trump haters. That person is my brother, it turns out. Buckley, Carlson, Uncle Buck, as he's known to us. And so we thought we would sit down and ask him, are we imagining this? Did the guy you supported from 2015, in the face of social sanction like you wouldn't believe, did that guy just betray everything you believe and the reasons you supported him in the first place? Are we imagining this? Is it real? Here's the conversation we had with Uncle Buck. You were the first person I knew personally who supported Donald Trump. And I remember thinking later when I thought about it, I was like, you're a lifelong resident, 40 year resident of Washington D.C. which voted for Trump in 2016 at 4.1%. So you were in the 4% of district residents who supported Trump and you're a WASP, and that's the group that hated Trump most. How did you wind up supporting Trump in, like, 2015?
- [03:10]
B
The departure. Trump represented a departure that I had never seen in Washington. He was first, I should say. I knew him my entire life, as anybody who grew up in the 80s did.
- [03:20]
A
Right.
- [03:20]
B
Because he was such a. I didn't know him personally. I know you did. But I knew of him as everybody around us did, because he was such a. A carnival barker of self promotion, gold dip, braggadocio, lying. I mean, he was a performer, and he was the creator of his own story, which on the one hand, was disgusting, because he was a man of obvious faults. I mean, he was gross and loud and brash and crude and a serial adulterer and all the things that you probably wouldn't want to be and certainly wouldn't want your children to be.
- [04:01]
A
Well, that's why the WASP didn't like him, because he bragged about himself, which is like, you know, rule one. You can't do that. That's why my children didn't like.
- [04:08]
B
You know, it's like, very much so.
- [04:09]
A
Yeah. So that was a massive hurdle. And, I mean, they already had a candidate called Jeb Bush.
- [04:14]
B
I was aware. I was compelled, actually, for the first time ever, by some of my clients to actually contribute to Jeb Bush.
- [04:21]
A
But he was the consensus choice of his people. I mean, he converted to Catholicism, but no one really took that seriously. He was a birthright Episcopalian. Like, everyone knew, this is our guy.
- [04:30]
B
It was his time.
- [04:31]
A
It was. Yes, it's his time.
- [04:33]
B
He was the adult in the room. I remember early on, actually, he raised $100 million, famously, obviously, and he was just the guy that was going to take us.
- [04:41]
A
But did you even know anyone who didn't support him?
- [04:43]
B
I didn't know a single person who didn't support him, no. But he had his. His domestic policy, his foreign policy. Everything about him, nothing about him was exciting. All of it was poll tested, as everything in Washington had been up until the moment Trump came on the scene.
- [04:58]
A
Right.
- [04:59]
B
And Trump was very, if not articulate. He had baseline messages that were unassailable and that he repeated with great repetition. And the things that he espoused and talked about endlessly were things that I believed in and things that most Americans, when they actually took the time to separate him, separate Trump's policies from Trump. The man, were super attractive, and it was such a departure from what we'd seen from every other elected official especially, obviously. It was the end of the Obama years, which were such a disappointment, but also the destruction of weak poll tested, you know, very well packaged candidates like, who's that forgettable Utah Senator?
- [05:49]
A
Mitt Romney.
- [05:50]
B
Oh, yeah, Mitt Romney.
- [05:51]
A
Mitt Romney.
- [05:52]
B
And of course, so Trump talked about actually focusing on America, repairing the problems that this entire class of people had brought upon us, the American citizens.
- [06:03]
A
But you were in that class of people and you literally worked for a polling, the most famous polling company, and you were in politics, and you live in northwest Washington, D.C. and like, basically, Trump is calling for the destruction of your world.
- [06:17]
B
I didn't see it that way because I think these people had already destroyed our world. And I'd seen it up close and personally, not only in the education system, but in the environment around me. We lived in a much dirtier country. We lived in a country that wouldn't even embrace any of the things that were great about America that I had grown up embracing. Not just freedom, not just individuality, but cleanliness and Christian principles. And we had such a wonderful country when I was growing up and it had been transformed. You could see it in Washington probably better than you could see it even in border states, the disconnect between what people had voted for, what people wanted, what they continually expressed that they wanted from their Republican leaders, and they were denied it every time. And Trump came in and said, look, there's an end to that. This is unacceptable. We've failed. Over the past 30 years, I've seen it up close and personal. Aside from all of his obvious foibles and his disgusting elements of his personality, he was, it seemed, someone who had been steeped. He built things, and very few people built things by the time Trump came along, we were not a manufacturing society at that point. And even if I didn't like his gilded name on all sorts of properties, he had employed a ton of people. He had actually contributed to the economy. He had been saying a lot of these financial. I wasn't really steeped in the financial world and didn't understand our trade policies. But when Trump explained how beneficial it was to the rest of the world rather than America, our trade policies, I actually paid attention and read up and realized that he was telling the truth. And then everything he said about the border, which you could see if you traveled around America, which I certainly did, the degradation of America was obscene and the destruction of things that I had held dear my entire life, and I think most Americans did, Trump represented a return to normalcy. And then, of course, I was totally enamored of his personal strength and his ability to. There's no one who's been more attacked than Donald Trump, obviously, over the last decade, but nothing more aggressively than when he first came down that escalator and announced for president. Like he was attacked by absolutely everybody in the world, not just the left, not just the media, but as you said, everybody on the right took him as a joke. It's like, actually, we're not electing individuals, we're electing the policies that they will defend and put forward when they're in office. And Trump articulated a very small set of priorities that I really found attractive and did so with calm and repetitiveness that seemed legit and sincere, especially the more he was attacked because he never bended. And I'd never seen that in American politics ever.
- [09:19]
A
And you've been around it a lot.
- [09:20]
B
Been around a lot. And actually jumping forward a decade. And Trump had expanded the coalition so aggressively back when he started. The ideas in the Republican Party about expanding the coalition were not harnessing the things that were great about America. It was actually surrendering to, you know, speak Spanish if you want to appeal to new voters. Don't talk about the cultural degradation of America because that will turn people off. Well, Trump flipped that over, flipped that on its head completely and said, actually, there's a lot about America we should and will be defending. And so that attracted me to him. I love that about him.
- [09:58]
A
Everyone loves relaxing at home. Cozy Earth can maximize that experience. If you haven't tried their robes or their slippers, you may be missing out. Soft, breathable, lightweight, the epitome of comfort. Perfect for slow mornings. Put one on after the shower. Hang out in front of the fire. You put on the robe, you don't want to take it off. We haven't even mentioned the slippers, which are warm and comfortable and easy to wear around the house, by the way. At this point you can wear them to Walmart. No one will say anything. With Mother's Day coming up, Cozy Earth can provide the perfect gift. Something she will use and appreciate every day. If you're nervous about making a purchase, don't worry. Cozy Earth backs everything with a hundred night sleep trial and a 10 year warranty, all risk free. Visit cozyearth.com use the code Tucker for 20% off. That's cozyearth.com promo code Tucker for 20% off. We've got a post purchase survey mention you heard about Cozy Earth from us on this show. Wow. When did you get involved?
- [10:54]
B
The end of 2015. I got hooked up with people in Trump's orbit It was still a very embryonic campaign. I mean, the entire campaign was mostly a media campaign, even throughout the whole 16 effort.
- [11:06]
A
But early on, never stopping a media
- [11:08]
B
campaign never stopped being a media campaign. But there were a few, you know, a few people around him who were actually producing work. So I got in touch with them or through. I got connected through Common Friend of ours and ended up writing some early speeches for Trump and Stephen Miller. I was corresponding with Stephen Miller and writing some early speeches for Trump.
- [11:32]
A
That's crazy. I didn't realize that at the time. I don't think I took Trump seriously at all until the summer of 15, probably, when our friend Patrick Feeney in Maine told me that he was thinking about voting for Trump or Bernie Sanders. They seemed very similar to him. And I was like, I don't even know what you're talking about. They're polar opposites. And my brain started to change and I started to see the obvious. But you were already on it. That's so interesting. I mean, it's a lot to ask anybody to understand his own motives. But why do you think, to the extent you can analyze it, why do you think you, living in a political world with a political job, being from a group of people who hated Trump, living in a neighborhood that hated Trump, why were you uniquely able to see the things that your neighbors couldn't, like the degradation of America and connect that to the policies that produced it? And why could nobody else?
- [12:33]
B
Maybe it was because I had actually worked in Washington for so long. I hadn't been born in Washington, but I moved there as a teenager and then had worked in politics, elected politics, and then corporate America, but very much adjacent to political world, and worked with pollsters and people who message tested. And I had worked closely with the Republican coalition when they got back in power in 94. And I saw, to the extent that people were phony, there was a huge disconnect between their personal lives and how they voted and how they campaign. Gay and gay, super gay. And very much in our party, which I was surprised by, because the left was always crazy. And they were always sort of attracted, these people. At least they were open about it. The Bernie Franks of the world, at least.
- [13:19]
A
Yeah, no, totally.
- [13:20]
B
Their weird lifestyles. But the Republican Party was completely empty. And I had also lived through empty.
- [13:28]
A
What do you mean?
- [13:30]
B
They had no principles that they were willing to stand up for. And I had seen, probably the starkest example was John McCain, who I had grown up really respecting. Was at a time in America when people actually celebrated war heroes. I thought he was a war hero at that time. I subsequently learned differently. But it was when he attacked the tobacco industry early on when I was first working for Corporate America, a big PR firm. And he had led the charge against Big Tobacco and had been a grandstander and a phony. And I had known him personally and really liked him as a person.
- [14:05]
A
I did, too. I really liked him as a guy.
- [14:06]
B
Yeah, he was hilarious. It was hilarious. And physically tough.
- [14:11]
A
I thought he was physically tough. And he was also. Sorry to say it out loud, he was a wasp, and he had grown up and he'd gone to Episcopal High School, and he just had excellent manners. He was funny in a way that I could relate to. He had a kind of heart to him, a kind of physical courage that I. Of course, we grew up admiring that. And I was completely taken in by his Persona or so not even the war stuff, but just his sort of. I don't know, his style. I could. I understood it immediately and I liked it.
- [14:43]
B
He was the guy. He was totally approachable.
- [14:45]
A
Yeah.
- [14:45]
B
I remember early on in my political career that I would come across him at fundraisers and cocktail parties, and he's the guy I would gravitate to and stand next to the bar and chat with because he was so approachable and funny.
- [14:57]
A
So funny.
- [14:58]
B
Yeah. And he did. He seemed. That was representative of a really different time. I mean, that was, you know, the Lindsey Grahams of the world walk around with huge security details now.
- [15:06]
A
Oh, I know.
- [15:07]
B
I wish someone would explain that to me, but John McCain didn't. John McCain was a man's man.
- [15:12]
A
Exactly.
- [15:13]
B
And he was, as I said, I thought, physically tough. So.
- [15:16]
A
No, that is such a smart point. Like, men did not have security details. It's just a show of rank. It's also a display of cowardice, honestly. And McCain would never have a security detail because culturally we don't do that.
- [15:33]
B
Plus, he seemed capable of beating him to death with his comb. I mean, if he had to.
- [15:37]
A
I totally agree. I mean, all of this is, like, lost on people now, but. No, I complete a security detail. What? Who do you think you are?
- [15:46]
B
It's absolutely shameful.
- [15:47]
A
No. And he had a kind of, again, not to make it an ethnic thing, but this is a cultural thing. He had, like, a kind of WASP egalitarianism to him that was completely real. Like he would have a legit conversation with the waiter.
- [16:00]
B
Yes.
- [16:01]
A
Was not a rank guy, like these fraudulent, new money insecure people. He was like a real guy.
- [16:06]
B
Yes.
- [16:07]
A
Is that. Is that fair?
- [16:08]
B
Very much. So plus hilarious in a sense demonstrates one obviously not only a high intellect, but a certain comfort with people. And if you can talk to your constituents or. I wasn't really constituent of his, but I was, you know, a 23 year old and I was an American. And he made me feel like my opinion mattered. And he could, he wasn't self conscious, he was not a big apologizer. He didn't think about what he said. Exactly. And Trump was the same way. Trump was like, wait, so, but go
- [16:36]
A
Back to the McCain thing. I knew McCain very, very, I mean, intimately well and, and was, and really liked him, as I said. But the tobacco thing, tell me what, why that was significant to you because I agree with that.
- [16:48]
B
Well, tobacco represented first of all, not only like one of the biggest commercial products that we have in America. I always thought it was sort of entwined with American freedom in history. 100%. We had all these tobacco producing states all around D.C. of course, but in
- [17:05]
A
the south, that was the point of the colony.
- [17:07]
B
100%. Absolutely. They fought. I mean, they threw the tobacco bales and the coffee bales, but tobacco as well. Tobacco was a great American heritage product. And as a consumer who enjoyed tobacco, I always sort of respected it. But it tied in also with a sense of personal responsibility which we never see now is there was a, you know, you had the freedom to smoke, may it be bad for you. Yes, I think every smoker knew was probably bad for you. You have the obvious, you cough, you get pneumonia every year, you smell bad, your teeth turn brown, whatever. No one was surprised when the attorney general came out and said smoking's bad for you. But the hypocrisy, first of all, the overreach of someone in the Republican Party, supposedly champion of free markets and freedom and personal freedom, would go after and grandstand about the tobacco companies and how they had lied about the addictive properties of tobacco when everybody knew they were addictive. The majority of countries smoked at that time. We had come from a smoking heritage. And not only that, the majority of governments, including state governments, were well invested in tobacco. They had taken a lot of, you know, public employees, investment funds and invested in Philip Morris and RJR and Brown and Williamson and the other big ones. I guess those are the Lorillard. Lorillard, forgive me. So American tobacco, tobacco was intertwined with the American experience as far as I understood it. And if you're going to go after, it's like going after the foundation of your company. It's on your wrong on so many levels. I agree Such a kick in the crotch, I think.
- [18:53]
A
And he did it in a, In a grandstandy fraudulent way.
- [18:56]
B
Yes, very much so. And, and also did it at the last minute. And he, I can't remember. He was, he. I think he was chairman of the Senate Finance Committee. I'm not sure why they had purview over it. And I worked intricately in this in defense of the tobacco companies at the time when they came up with their, their huge settlement which involved a lot of humiliation for them. It was disgusting. They paid for their own destruction at the. To the detriment of individual Americans, but also to the detriment of people who'd been invested in tobacco and to the
- [19:31]
A
enrichment of like the trial lawyers and like totally disgusting little 501C3s, like Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids, Michael Myers. It's like the worst people in the world won. Some of the best people lost. And the people making the deals sold their own dignity. And for what? Did public health get better? Did the life expectancy in this country rise? No, it went down.
- [19:54]
B
I think John Cole got a really big boat out of it. And I think Dickie Scruggs, also brother in law to Trent Lott at the time, who was the majority leader. I mean, it seemed like a setup and it was offensive and it dominated political discourse for a couple of years and it, the country actually hasn't recovered from that.
- [20:13]
A
I agree, I agree. Did it make you quit smoking?
- [20:17]
B
No, I probably actually went from a two pack a day to three pack a day smoker. There were some benefits actually, because Philip Morris and RJR would send.
- [20:26]
A
They had.
- [20:27]
B
It was right around the time too that the RJR Nabisco merger. So they used to send these huge packages to our office wrapped in a big faux cream cheese case. And you'd open it up and we'd have cartons of cigarettes and Nabisco crackers and all sorts of cookies and chocolates and. And the original non smoking cigarette they had too, which tasted terrible.
- [20:50]
A
It was awful.
- [20:50]
B
It was awful. But it was a neat concept where
- [20:53]
A
you heat the tobacco rather than burn it, right? Yes.
- [20:56]
B
You get your nicotine. But it was disgusting.
- [20:58]
A
That was a Philip Morris, I believe
- [21:00]
B
that was a Philip Morris product.
- [21:01]
A
Yeah. They sent it to me and I remember smoking in my office thinking, who would smoke that? Yeah.
- [21:07]
B
Now it was like. It was like trying Brussels sprouts. Each time I did it, I was like, I'm gonna like this. I don't want people like this.
- [21:13]
A
I never tried it. No. It's repulsive.
- [21:16]
B
But that was a huge sense of betrayal early on. And then when he ran, I was wary of John McCain. And then when he ran for president, got the nomination, he totally fumbled at it. And it seemed like it was an absolute surrender to this unknown but obviously Marxist based, anti American candidate. Anti white, anti white, anti American candidate. And that was not his to lose, that was ours to lose. And he did that on our behalf.
- [21:49]
A
Do you think he threw the fight?
- [21:52]
B
He refused to. I mean, on the heels of 9, 11, he refused publicly and excoriated people for saying, pointing out Barack Obama's real name, Barack Hussein Obama or Barry Satour, talking about his early years in Indonesia, talking about his church that he went to in this anti American, anti white church, talking, refusing to talk about any of his heritage, which was obviously fabricated and dishonest. It was the first time, I think, in American history that a presidential candidate was not only not vetted at all, but you were excluded from knowing anything about him of any relevance. And John McCain, who was the standard bearer of the Republican Party at the time, had an obligation actually to be the top watchdog about his opponent. That's your job. Your job is to fight a battle. And he refused to fight it. So I never forgive him for that.
- [22:46]
A
That's such a smart point. I was too close to it even to get that. But cost of living is already making it hard to live here and it's not getting any better. Unfortunately, it's likely to get worse. And a lot of Americans fill the gap with credit cards, not just for fancy dinners, but to cover things like groceries and bills. That is a disaster. It's understandable. But don't go down that road because there is a tax, in effect, a survival tax of 20% interest or more. Why would you do that? Why would you hand money to the big banks when you could keep it for your family? Our friends at American Financing have a better way if you're looking to buy your first home or refinance your current home. One, they're helping Americans achieve the dream of homeownership. With monthly mortgage rates currently in the fives, American Financing saves its customers an average of 800 bucks per month. That's nearly 10 grand every year. Back to you. This isn't just a loan. It's a total financial reset. So debt is tough, but there's a smart way to do it and a reckless, self destructive way to do it. Credit cards. And so we recommend American Financing. They're salary based, not commission based, which means they actually work for you, not the banks. They're called America's Home for home Loans for a reason. Call 800-6855-696868-55696 or visit americanfinancing.net Tucker so then we have eight years of Obama and it becomes pretty clear in the second term that he hates the country he's leading. He really hates white people. Tons of whites voted for him. Tons of whites voted for him because he was saying we're going to get rid of race consciousness in this country and treat people as citizens and human beings and we can move past the division of the disgusting civil rights movement thinking and just anti white zero sum. And that Grant park speech was like, I didn't vote for him obviously, but I was like, I hope this is true. It turned out to be the opposite of the truth. Just like hated whites. And so by the time that ended in 2016, like it was a different country.
- [24:59]
B
I had never seen anybody be. I mean, it was a whole new time. My son was young, he was in a private school at the time that embraced all of those anti white messages. Separation. I mean, it was literally the new. They talked about Jim Crow while they're instituting Jim Crow in the educational world and, and all throughout society. And people in D.C. embraced it heavily. People I had known. All of a sudden we came from a country that was happy, self confident, really proud of America, suddenly questioning and apologizing for everything that had come before. And obviously Obama accelerated that to a degree that was disgusting. But it also meant you could no longer have an informed discussion. I remember I had been in Washington for 20 years at that point and I had Democratic friends, I had tons of Democratic friends. You could have a normal conversation, a normal meal. And it was during the Obama years, I noticed that you couldn't even have a conversation with these people that would just cut you off, get instantly angry, obviously born of some sort of, some sort of cowardice on their part or regret. But they were so vicious against open discourse, they couldn't defend their candidate, where in that case their president at that point. But they also couldn't discuss it. And they hated you for it. They hated you for pointing out, if you just said simply, as I did to several Democrats, I'm not attacking Obama. Just tell me why you support this man as our president. Tell me what he's doing to strengthen our country. And they would look blank or angry. And that was pervasive, I think, on the left.
- [26:39]
A
So then Trump starts making noises about running in 2015 and it's not even on the radar of most people in D.C. that I remember. It's like Trump. I mean, I talked to Trump. He called me in 2015 and said, I'm going to run. And I said, I don't believe you. I think you're selling another book. I'd seen him do this before, 15 years previous. The campaign was a book tour.
- [27:02]
B
Yes.
- [27:03]
A
And he said to me, I think I'm. I'm going to surprise you this time. But I still didn't take him seriously. Really. But you did, and you reached out to people. What did you think of the people around Trump then?
- [27:15]
B
There weren't many. I was very impressed, actually, by Stephen Miller's intellect and his writing ability and his commitment to immigration reform or closing the border. I thought he was a true believer on that.
- [27:29]
A
Yep.
- [27:29]
B
I did, too, think he probably. Well, he certainly was at the time. He was a great writer and easy to talk to and, I thought, committed. I don't know what his motivations were, but he seemed like he actually was on board for the long haul for this. And I will say, my entire life, I'd only been voting. Barely missed the 88 election, but I've been voting since 92. And in every four years, they would say, this is the existential election. Like, this is the election that really is going to determine the path we're on. And by the time 16 came around, it really seemed, with the hangover and the depressing anti American, anti white, the Obama program was so dispiriting to witness the wreckage. I felt socially that this was the existential election. In 16, I felt that strongly. So Trump was the only one. Everybody else, I mean, Jeb Bush's program, I couldn't even tell you what it was. It was forgettable at the time, but it was the same talking points they'd been using for two decades, referencing Ronald Reagan, who I was personally impressed by, but it's not really relevant. During the Iraq wars and the Afghan war and all that stuff, and the degradation that America had experienced that was so overwhelming at that time, it seemed like an existential election. And Trump seemed fully committed. And by the time it came around to the debates, in the end, when he got the. When he finally got the nomination, this is a man who had withstood every single personal degradation you could possibly imagine and every attack from every quarter of the country, I was fully committed to his program and thought he was real.
- [29:18]
A
What kind of speeches did you write for Trump?
- [29:21]
B
Mostly about immigration stuff. Rally speeches early on or during the middle of the campaign? Probably not. I'm trying to think when it was late in 15.
- [29:32]
A
That's amazing. I didn't even know you were doing that.
- [29:35]
B
I had a lot of freedom to do. That was the other thing. The stuff that I delivered. I had a lot of freedom to. Had a lot of license. I felt like I was writing from my own perspective, and that's how aligned I was with what Trump had articulated. It was like some of the easiest speeches to write because they were honest and straightforward and pugnacious and unapologetic.
- [29:57]
A
So honest, straightforward, pugnacious. That came naturally to you, and you
- [30:03]
B
don't see a lot of that. I mean, normally when you're writing for a candidate, you've got the lawyer, like their campaign manager or some dipshit consultant breathing over your shoulder. Like, you can't say that you need to soften, that you need to. Oh, really? So you end up with something that's not even distinguishable from the other side. Trump was not just distinguishable from the left. He was distinguished himself from the rest of the 19 subpar candidates who were running, but they were all representative of that time. And so I was. Man, I never really. I didn't spend time around Trump. I. I loved his sense of humor, but I loved his consistency. And I loved the fact that he never backed down, especially with these people barking in his face and claiming he was the worst man on the planet.
- [30:47]
A
Yeah. Racist.
- [30:48]
B
It's like someone. I think it may have been, you said, we're not hiring the guy to, you know, babysit our children. And that was just intuitive to me. It's like I'm.
- [30:57]
A
Yeah.
- [30:58]
B
But he was an outsider, too. And also, he seemed like I had a pretty cohesive family at the time. I mean, that attracted me also, and seemed like he had a decent relationship with his children. Yes.
- [31:11]
A
Son in law was running everything.
- [31:12]
B
Right.
- [31:12]
A
That seemed like a good thing.
- [31:13]
B
Yes, very much so. And a huge departure from what you'd seen. Cause I'd seen tons of candidates up close whose children were, you know, drunks or drug addicts or suicidal or hated their families, hated their parents, and we're losers. And they seem the opposite of that. They seemed like they also believed in a heritage America. They believed in building stuff, creating jobs, creating prosperity. And even though he was supposedly a billionaire, he was a guy who understood the working man. He understood how the country worked. Sorry to go on so long, but I was gonna say, when I did early research, I didn't know a lot about our trade policies at the time. I just didn't know the details and he talked a lot about it, probably second only to immigration. And when I started doing research on it, I was shocked. The amount of stuff that we had given away just gratuitously surrendered to the rest of the world and our trade policies and how that had an effect on our manufacturing. I'd always blamed the Clintons for the free trade and our agreements with Mexico and Canada cleaning out manufacturing. I was aware of that. I'd seen it happen. But I didn't realize how deep the betrayal was until I started doing research on Trump's individual policies. I just hadn't been focused on it.
- [32:34]
A
Spring is the most refreshing time of year. Nothing compliments it better than Black Rifle Coffee. Lots of it. This is an American company founded by veterans with conviction. They built the whole thing around a simple idea. Do it right or just don't do it. They're definitely doing it right. We know because we drink it all day long. If you want coffee without theatrics, start with just black whole bean if you grind it yourself, ground if you don't. No sweeteners designed disguise mediocrity. No seasonal gimmicks masking weak beans. Just bold American roasted coffee that delivers what it promises. And if you prefer variety without lowering the bar, try the Supply Drop variety rounds, a curated lineup of pod roasts that rotate in but never compromise. Strength, consistency, standards. Discipline out with watered down blends in with pure American coffee. You can grab just black or supply Drop variety rounds at Amazon or go right to blackrifflecoffee.com to stock up from the source. Black Rifle Coffee Veteran founded American Roasted. Still standing, still brewing. It's interesting. So the winter of 2015, you're writing speeches for Trump. I'm just starting to realize this might be the answer or I should at least be open minded enough. I think it was January of 16 that I decided I'm totally for Trump and wrote a piece about it. But the winter, that winter, I remember being at a Christmas party. You may have been there in our neighborhood on Lowell street in Northwest, at a friend's, really good friend's house. And you know, everyone's there, every family you know is there, all of our kids, you know, it's like December 23rd kind of potluck, right? Just great, great people, great friends and who we lived next to for so long. And my wife, who's totally apolitical people, they're all grousing about Trump. I can't believe it. You know, he's a racist. And my wife, totally non political wife goes I like Trump. And I remember someone, and everyone, of course, likes my wife, but someone laughed like, oh, yeah, I like Trump, too. And she goes, no, no, I really do. Like, someone needs to stand up for, I don't know, people who've been shafted. And none of them live here, but there are a lot of them in this country. And, like, I like Trump. And people were enraged with her. Like, the only time I've ever seen anyone mad at my wife. It's just like, no one's ever mad at her, but they were mad and embarrassed and like, I can't believe there's someone who, in the room with me who could like Trump. And she, of course, like, didn't even notice that people did. She's like, well, no, what's wrong with that? But that was the response that she got. You were already kind of a more. I mean, you brought your son to Episcopal School on a Harley Davidson, so, like, obviously you were. You were a more controversial figure in the neighborhood. What kind of response did you get?
- [35:14]
B
I had the benefit of working, I say for myself, but working from home with a couple of clients that I'd had since 2004. So I'd already really enjoyed, have a good relationship with them personally. And I worked on issues that mean something to me that I could defend, and I had a lot of license to speak my mind if I had an opportunity to do so. So I never. I just didn't live in a world where I was subservient to the machine. I hadn't been like that my entire life, because we grew up in a different America where you could express yourself and people expected you to. And there was never any apology. You may be wrong, you may be dumb, but you can say what you think. And so I just never. I'm so fortunate that I was never forced to think that way. I guess I think that's the reason. And then I was just gonna say, if you did. You know, every four years, they do the blind candidate thing, where they describe the candidate without the name, without the history, as just literally a policy prescription, what this person stands for. And if you did that with Trump at any time during his campaigns and you just separated the man from the policy, his policy is more closely aligned with my worldview and my sense of what it means to be America and American and to be a self confident man who loves your country, like, I. I've never. I'm sorry to jump ahead, but I have never even knowing how Washington works, even seeing the vitriol that he encountered and the overwhelming opposition from not just political Washington, but the media and the corporate world and everybody else who takes themselves seriously. It was during Trump's inauguration speech, the first time. And if you read that speech as I did, this is unimpeachable. This is not controversial. These things that he is saying is such a breath of fresh air that no man in American politics has ever had the balls to say, why is that? Like, how is it that we suddenly, we are in a country now where it's embarrassing to say that the reason you have elected officials is so they can take care of America and Americans to this day. I didn't understand it then, I don't understand it now. Maybe I'm simple minded, but I think
- [37:35]
A
you do understand it.
- [37:36]
B
I do understand.
- [37:38]
A
Right. I think you know what's going on.
- [37:41]
B
I'm very angry about it.
- [37:42]
A
Right. But this is one of those topics. You're like, I don't understand what's happening here.
- [37:48]
B
It is unimpeachable to say that we're here.
- [37:50]
A
Of course it is.
- [37:53]
B
So, yeah, I actually, it was at that point that I really started to loathe the people who, who were against Donald Trump's program. Yes, you could laugh at him. Yes, you could say, take issue with some of moronic things that he says or the inconsistent things he would say. But he was very consistent about sticking up for America and Americans first and foremost and always.
- [38:14]
A
You put a Trump bumper sticker on your truck. I'll never forget.
- [38:17]
B
I did. And I'm not a bumper sticker guy at all. And I did it, I did it a little bit as an act of rebellion because I was aware. I was aware. I mean, I lived in a neighborhood that had a lot of rainbow flags, a lot of anti war signs, which I'm totally anti war. But the idea that you're displaying your political views on your car or your lawn, I just find kind of reprehensible.
- [38:42]
A
Well, when you live in a city that voted 4.1% for Trump, it kind of gives you license to, because, you know, everybody agrees with you. It's a one party state.
- [38:54]
B
I mean, reflexive and easy to be one of those.
- [38:57]
A
I don't think Albania under Enver Hoxha had margins like that. I mean, that is just like, that's truly just one party state. So it doesn't make people's behavior better at all. But you decide when you know that 96% of the people in your city disagree with you to let them know what you think.
- [39:19]
B
That's what it's. That's what it means to be an American man.
- [39:22]
A
I totally agree. Amen. Nicely put. So what kind of response did you get to your. The bumper sticker said, as I recall, because I was just, I was in love with it and amazed by it and too cowardly to put it on my own car. It said pro God, pro life, pro gun, pro Trump.
- [39:38]
B
No, it was actually, but it was during the Trump era, so it wasn't explicitly pro Trump, but it certainly captured. It was. And it had a picture. It was pro God, pro gun, pro life, anti Obama. And it had the oh, into the sunset thing. And people reacted exactly as you would expect. Very few people would accost me in traffic, beep their horn, flick me off, yell at me. My car would get defaced often. I also had a small American flag in the back of my car that I had to keep replacing because people would steal it. But most people just avert their eyes in disgust. And I don't know, those are the kind of people that I just couldn't care less about their opinion Even though
- [40:20]
A
they're 96% of the population of the city you live in.
- [40:23]
B
Yes, I had a lot of friends in D.C. i love D.C. oh, I love. I couldn't imagine living there now. But no, I also lived on kind of a. I lived on a cul de sac with a lot of like minded people just sort of by accident. And, and, and also the kind of people that would be averse to those messages, which again, I think are foundational to life and certainly life in this country don't have the courage to attack you for it because they're spineless weenies anyway.
- [40:53]
A
Yeah. Whose wives hate them. I totally agree with that. We saw a lot of that.
- [40:56]
B
That's exactly right. Yeah.
- [40:58]
A
Those are the guys whose wives hit on you for sure.
- [41:01]
B
Yeah, sorry.
- [41:02]
A
Sorry to say that out loud, but it's literally true. Is it not true?
- [41:05]
B
Yes, it is.
- [41:06]
A
Yeah, it is.
- [41:08]
B
That's the root to adultery is a wife who's unimpressed and doesn't honor her husband, doesn't respect him because he doesn't have a spine.
- [41:17]
A
That's exactly right. Yeah. Weak men make unhappy women. Why is there a rise in female cheating? Because there's a rise in weak men. That's just a fact.
- [41:28]
B
Sorry to say that now.
- [41:29]
A
Sorry to blame the victims, but it is absolutely right. Then the Trump re elect 2020. I remember you wearing a shirt now by this point, I'm defending Trump every single day on Fox News on a Not always Trump the man, but certainly Trump's policies and certainly attacking people who are attacking Trump because it became a kind of handy guide to who was against the country's most basic interests. People were hysterical about Trump.
- [41:57]
B
It was a political colander, I like to say. You put those people in and just separated those who were pro American. Reasonable, Right? Yeah. From the rest.
- [42:06]
A
And the anti white stuff, which was always the foundation of it. It's like if you hate whites, you hate Trump. Even though Trump was in no sense a, like pro white or anything, but whatever that even means.
- [42:17]
B
But he was an equal opportunity lover. I got the sense. I mean, he'd had a very public life. I think he liked all kinds and he was nice to everybody, which I
- [42:27]
A
never wanted to say in public, but I'm.
- [42:29]
B
But it's well known.
- [42:31]
A
It's well known.
- [42:32]
B
That's exactly.
- [42:32]
A
I don't even hesitate even to say it now. But like, Trump could pretty easily prove he wasn't a racist, if you know what I mean. Sorry, that's just true.
- [42:44]
B
Yes.
- [42:45]
A
I don't think it's ever been written.
- [42:46]
B
But talk about demonstrable. Talk about demonstrating your love for all. You don't. Right. I mean, you don't.
- [42:56]
A
No, you're right.
- [42:57]
B
If you can do that, then you could do anything. You would support someone if, if you could sleep with someone, you would support them if you, if you're colorblind in your, in your sexual aspirations, you're colorblind and everything else. Right.
- [43:09]
A
I think that's completely fair. Yeah, that's completely fair. No, Trump is racist. Was that. I always felt like there are things wrong with Trump. Have always been. I overlooked most of them or just tried to ignore them or whatever. And some of them I honestly enjoyed, you know, his vulgarity or whatever. I.
- [43:27]
B
But his sense of timing is amazing.
- [43:30]
A
No, there's so much about Trump that's amazing. I completely agree. But the idea that Trump was a racist, it was be like. Well, that's actually the one thing he's not. Why are you calling him a race? Not even true.
- [43:40]
B
Right.
- [43:41]
A
What are you talking about? Trump is a racist. I don't. I know who came up with that. It's because they were race obsessed, that's why.
- [43:49]
B
Right.
- [43:49]
A
Because they really hated the whites. Yes. And they wanted to, they wanted a way. And I still to this. They don't understand why they hated the whites so much.
- [43:57]
B
Let's. Let's give them equal opportunity and credit. The Democratic Party also was an incredibly racist party. I mean, Exactly. Didn't like anybody.
- [44:06]
A
Whatever. You're race obsessed. You're going to end up hating people on the basis of their race, just period. Yes, and. But yet Trump is racist. I was, like, the dumbest thing I ever heard.
- [44:15]
B
Can we go back a minute? One second. The famous quote, the fact. I mean, there's another thing that I just so admired about Trump, but it bothered me. It has bothered me now for almost 10 years how people got the quote, the grab them by the pussy quote, so wrong.
- [44:31]
A
Oh, I agree.
- [44:32]
B
Yeah. Because the full quote, if I'm not mistaken, was they let you, when you're famous, to grab them by the pussy. So I thought that was worth some exploration, but no one else did.
- [44:44]
A
In what. In what sense? I totally agree.
- [44:45]
B
It was an indictment of American culture. It was an indictment of the kind of culture, actually, that Trump had perpetuated so aggressively over two decades. The look at me culture, the facade of success, the very shallow idea that you are, you know, that your worth is caught up in your bank account and your display of wealth when that is such a total corrupting, dead end. And it really has hurt the women in this country. It's been to their detriment. Obviously, we could have a lot of long conversation about the failures of feminism, but one of them is that women tried to aspire to a male sexual voraciousness that isn't conducive to them and also isn't beneficial to them, because no man wants a woman who's been with a bunch of men. That's like. That's a law that's been around forever, a human law. And no celebration of supposed freedom is gonna obscure that fact. And so that. Sorry, but that is exactly what Trump was talking about when he said, when you're famous, they will allow you to do that. And I noticed that everybody cut that part of the quote out, even though I thought it was the most interesting part of the quote.
- [46:03]
A
He said that to a childhood friend of ours who was interviewing him and who was destroyed just for being there, which was kind of crazy, really.
- [46:14]
B
Destroyed by his own employers. And their friend was the NBC and Washington Post colluding together to their detriment, but also to the detriment of their employee. It was the most.
- [46:24]
A
They destroyed their employee. No, I.
- [46:26]
B
Demonstration of disloyalty.
- [46:28]
A
Yeah.
- [46:29]
B
Subservient to political.
- [46:30]
A
Someone we'd grown up with and knew really well. And it was just. The whole thing was sad, but you're absolutely right. At the core was Trump's vulgar, but unfortunately true claim that rich and famous men have a totally different standard of behavior that Is allowed by women.
- [46:47]
B
Yeah.
- [46:48]
A
And, you know, men should not act that way. Women shouldn't put up with it and that. But that's a fact. And anyone who's been in Rich and Famous world, as I have been a lot of my life, knows that that's true.
- [47:01]
B
Yes.
- [47:02]
A
And it's a problem that has at least two authors. Men and women.
- [47:07]
B
Yeah.
- [47:08]
A
Is that fair?
- [47:08]
B
Yes. Oh, completely. And also it demonstrated how committed he was, because he should have been. There was ever a time you should be overwhelmed by shame. It was that saying that in public. I mean, it was pretty gross and embarrassing and shocking. But the fact that he actually debated Hillary the next day and did a great job allowed me to believe that this was not about his personal ambition. This was a guy who actually cared about America. He's willing to subject himself to that kind of attack and not, like, fold up and crawl off in shame.
- [47:39]
A
Do you think Jeb could have withstood the pressure?
- [47:44]
B
Apologize to my wife, I think is what he's. I think that was like his refrain, wake up at two o' clock in the morning every night sweating and apologize to my wife. I think he. Sorry. I think he said that to Trump during one of the debates. I think Jeb Bush turned to Trump and said, apologize to my wife. It's like no man demands an apology from another man who offends his wife. You either you punch him in the face or you take care of it on your own, don't you think? I mean, if you're gonna defend your wife's honor, it's not on a debate stage, those kind of words.
- [48:18]
A
If Jeb had walked over and just smashed Trump in the face on the debate stage, perfectly appropriate.
- [48:24]
B
I may have voted for him if he'd done something like that, if he'd been capable of doing something like that. Otherwise, he actually. I hate. I don't ever revel in other people's misfortune. But one of the great things about Trump was his dynasty. Bashing, destroying the fact that he had destroyed the Bush hold on the political world on the right was one of his greatest accomplishments. Even more so, I think, than destroying the Clintons, because he's never really followed through with that, and rather he's never prosecuted these people who are so outside the law. But he did peel back the mask of these globalist pussies who've had such an effect on our lives for so long.
- [49:10]
A
Well, he really meant it with the Bushes. He hated them because they were wasps. He hates wasps, but he's also obsessed with them. I've talked to him about it many times, and he's obsessed with them. And he feels. I mean, the whole Mar A Lago
- [49:24]
B
was built when he was denied entry into the B and T. Yes.
- [49:29]
A
Which has, like, totally been lost to history. They're directly across the street from each other. And he built his club. I happened to be there. I was in Palm beach. It was 85 or 86, something like that. We were staying with our friends there. You were there, and we're having lunch at the Bath Tennis Club, and everyone's like, donald Trump is building a club across the street for basically to give us the finger. And, no, we're not letting him or any of his friends in our club. And I don't think they have to this day, 40 years later. Anyway. None of that was ever reported by anybody.
- [50:04]
B
I'm aware they focused on the flag, which was pretty cool.
- [50:08]
A
There were a lot of dynamics here. Yes. Going on that nobody ever wants to talk about. We just happen to have witnessed them firsthand. So I know exactly what this was. But Trump's resentment toward the WASPS was the driving force there. Really. And he was an outer boroughs guy. Never felt accepted by them. Always wanted to be, always bragging. I went to Penn, like, okay, Penn. You know, like, they never liked him, they never accepted him. And boy, did he get them back.
- [50:38]
B
Yes, he did.
- [50:39]
A
And even to this day, I mean, six weeks ago, I was talking to him about this, his resentment toward the Bushes and its ethnic and social.
- [50:49]
B
He acknowledges that literally up front.
- [50:51]
A
No, of course not. But it's like. But he's very fixated on the WASP thing and does talk about it a lot.
- [50:57]
B
I believe it. Yeah.
- [50:59]
A
With me, anyway, it's always like, what are you saying? But whatever, I don't care. Ignore it.
- [51:05]
B
But a group in America that's kind of fixated on the wasps, too.
- [51:07]
A
Yeah, well, yeah, I've noticed that, too.
- [51:10]
B
Equal fervor and hostility.
- [51:11]
A
Yeah.
- [51:12]
B
I don't know.
- [51:13]
A
But, you know, you get what you put up with. And they put up with it. And like, oh, okay, you have a good point anyway. But yeah, no, he wanted to destroy the Bushes because, you know, he didn't agree with their program. I guess he said he didn't agree with their program, but the real reason he wanted to destroy them was, you know, they go to the BNT and he doesn't.
- [51:35]
B
You don't think it was his anti war position?
- [51:38]
A
I thought it was. Okay, so let me say this is like, one of the reasons I'm just so grateful to talk to you is because you were there and you saw a lot of this stuff, and these details just get lost. And, you know, some details are not worth preserving because, like, who cares? But some of them really are at the center of the question, like, this is why things happened. And everyone lies about everything all the time, and you just want somebody, somewhere in the distant future, to know what actually happened. Yes.
- [52:12]
B
Preserve the truth.
- [52:13]
A
Preserve the truth. Let's preserve the truth. So I just want this to be a record of the truth. And that status anxiety, which is a huge driver of human behavior, is it not? Yes, it's a huge driver of President Trump's behavior. Huge driver of his behavior plays a role in all this stuff. These unannounced conflicts between groups for power and prestige and rank. These are big questions.
- [52:39]
B
Yes.
- [52:39]
A
Yeah.
- [52:40]
B
What drives human behavior drives policy in the end.
- [52:43]
A
Exactly. And so if you have the total displacement after over 200 years of the American ruling class by a new group, that's a big thing. But nobody says a word about it. And I'm not even taking sides in it, though. Obviously, I have a side to take, but I'm not taking sides in it. But that happened. It happened over 40 years, and now it's complete. And no one can say that that happened. Are you kidding? It's absurd. But good or bad, by the way, that is the story of history. Groups displace other groups, and there's reasons for that, and survival of the fittest and all that. Got it. I'm not even decrying it. I'm just saying the fact that no one will acknowledge that that happened and that it had massive effects on everything and that it. Those resentments or aspirations, drive behavior that has results that we see all around us, like. And no one will say it,
- [53:42]
B
it's really shocking. It is. It's.
- [53:44]
A
I remember I was sitting there was a girl called Catherine Rampel Rempel. I think she worked at the Washington Post, but she was like a Fox contributor or something. Not impressive at all. But I was sitting on the set with her in a commercial break once. She was like a sort of liberal, neocon type person, but not smart. Anyway, we're talking and I'm trying to be nice, and she's a younger person, and I'm like, where are you from? And I grew up in Palm Beach. You grew up in Palm Beach? That's sort of interesting. I know Palm beach. Don't go there anymore, but I know it well. And she goes, yeah, I grew up there. And something about this or that. And she's like, yeah. And we moved there and my dad sued the Bath and Tennis Club for discrimination because they wouldn't let him in. And I'm listening to this, I'm like, he sued a country, your dad. And if I'm getting this wrong, I just want to apologize, but I'm pretty sure I remember this conversation like it was Yesterday. This is 10 years ago. Yeah. He sued because they wouldn't let us in. And I'm like, sort of not my job to tell you that these are private associations. Like, I don't know. What are you even talking about? Like, that's repulsive to me. A club should have. You should have the right to hang out with whoever you want to hang out on whatever basis you want to make that decision. But she was like bragging about it, and I was like, the hatred behind that, like the desire to destroy something that you didn't build was like so evident. This girl's a hater, actually. That's what I realized talking to her.
- [55:07]
B
Plus that she could be so unself aware and understand that that is the most repugnant thing. Of course it dominates American culture now. Or was it acceptable when we were growing up?
- [55:15]
A
I know. No, I'm aware. Anyway. Okay. So I just want to establish for people who aren't aware of all these dynamics, just that they do exist and they're absolutely consequential and we're seeing their effects, but no one will tell us that. So in your specific case, 2020 comes around, Trump is running for re election. And I go over to your house, we lived obviously in the same neighborhood, and you're wearing a shirt that says Trump reelect.
- [55:41]
B
Reelect the mfer.
- [55:44]
A
You're wearing this shirt. So I, I'm establishing all of this just so people understand that you are not a fair weather Trump voter. Is that fair? That's fair.
- [55:56]
B
Could I actually give. Give thanks to Doug Davenport for that shirt.
- [56:01]
A
What a good man.
- [56:01]
B
What a great man. Yeah.
- [56:04]
A
Doug Davenport's a Washington figure who is like in the rare, the tiny group that you belong to. Of people who really were on the Trump program.
- [56:12]
B
Yes, Supportive.
- [56:15]
A
What was the experience of wearing that
- [56:17]
B
shirt like at that time? Actually, you could get shot. It seemed like wearing that. I'm not a big hat guy, but I did occasionally wear my MAGA hat that I got signed from Trump in his not very well attended victory party in 2016.
- [56:36]
A
Did you go to that?
- [56:37]
B
I did. Was there till 4:30 in the morning. I walked.
- [56:42]
A
You're like an OG Trump man. You're My only brother. I didn't. I. I mean, I knew that. I saw you that night, I think. Right, Yeah.
- [56:48]
B
I had dinner with you.
- [56:49]
A
Okay, yes.
- [56:50]
B
No, I had dinner with you. You were in Fox, I remember.
- [56:52]
A
Right, I was on Fox. Right. I was like, what was I doing that night? I was sitting on a set with like grumpy Brit Hume and with that guy from 60 Minutes, his son Wallace. And they were like, I can't believe this couldn't happen. And, but I was like psyched, and everyone hated me for being psyched. But we had dinner. I totally forgot that. Because you were going to the Trump victory party. What was that like?
- [57:12]
B
Really?
- [57:13]
A
Really.
- [57:14]
B
Actually, it was one of the greatest things ever. We showed up, we went out to an additional dinner. I was with my wife. Went out to an additional dinner, had a great dinner. Two dinners, Uncle Bob, two dinners. Went to this wonderful French restaurant that no longer exists in New York. Showed up at this very sparsely attended victory party. And the best thing about it is it had a wall of televisions from floor to ceiling behind the stage. And it was an up close picture of all of the assembled people in the Javits center, which is where all the Democrats and the Victory Hillary party was taking place. No one seemed to think Trump was gonna win until of course, he flipped Florida and then it was a raucous party. It was, it was actually.
- [58:02]
A
Who was there? Do you remember who you ran into?
- [58:05]
B
Oh, I got. Almost got knocked over by the. I'm trying to remember her name now. She was the female governor of, of Arizona. Just plowed, just super hammered. Do you remember her? I can't remember.
- [58:16]
A
I do remember her. She was a smoker.
- [58:19]
B
She was a smoker. She was a massive drinker. She was jubilant. People were jubilant.
- [58:24]
A
But like, to go to the Trump party in 2016, no one even bothered to go. I ran into Kellyanne Conway Fitzpatrick or whatever she was at that point. Conway, I guess that morning at like 5am on the set at Fox. She's the campaign manager.
- [58:38]
B
Oh, I remember.
- [58:39]
A
And I said, we're in the hallway, I'll never forget it. Right off the set. And I said, what do you think the numbers are tonight? And she always asks the campaign manager that, like election Day. And she goes, I'd say 45, 43, something like that. There's a campaign manager telling me, I've talked to a lot of campaign managers on election day, like, like for, since 1992 or whatever. I've never met one who didn't predict victory on election Day, ever, ever. Doesn't matter.
- [59:03]
B
Plus, it's bad juju. I mean, your job is to demonstrate the utmost optimism, even in the face of.
- [59:09]
A
So if your camp. And by the way, Trump thought he was going to lose, and I think he said that, he certainly said it to me, but I know that he, I know that he believed he was going to lose. So if you're going to the Trump party when the candidate and his campaign manager both believe they're going to lose, but you're at the victory party, we
- [59:24]
B
know it's a snapshot in history. I actually did think. I know because you pulled our table. We had a table of about eight people for dinner and it was me and Kaitlan Collins, to her credit.
- [59:35]
A
Oh, wow.
- [59:35]
B
Two of us, I think, I think you said. I think three of us out of like eight or nine people said Trump was going to win.
- [59:41]
A
It's kind of crazy. This is going to like, set off conspiracies. But you and I are having dinner with Kaitlan Collins on the eve of the 2016 election. I love Kaitlan Collins. I don't even. I've never seen her on TV because I don't have a tv, but I
- [59:54]
B
don't watch her on TV either. I'll preserve my sweet girl.
- [59:57]
A
I know you're not allowed to say
- [59:58]
B
that I thoughts of her in that dinner because she was. She was riotous. She was a great girl. She's a smart girl.
- [60:03]
A
She's a great girl. I totally agree with that. Despite whatever she says on tv. I'm not even aware of it, but
- [60:07]
B
I haven't watched CNN in a decade.
- [60:09]
A
Hired her out of college and always thought so much of her. One of the hardest working people I've ever met in my life, that girl. I don't think she slept past 5am in her entire life. She is a worker.
- [60:20]
B
Super admirable.
- [60:20]
A
I respect that. Yes, I do. Almost above everything. Anyway, so you go to the party, it's sparsely attended, and then he wins.
- [60:28]
B
Then it transforms. Jeff Sessions was right next to us. I love Jeff Sessions.
- [60:32]
A
Me too. Good man.
- [60:34]
B
Great man. You know, not tons, but a few elected officials that I recognize from around the country. Not many. Mostly.
- [60:43]
A
Mostly Shan Brewer. That's exactly Jan Brewer.
- [60:47]
B
Sorry, Governor, I think I prevented Jan Brewer from falling down. She fell into me and had full momentum and I remember pulling her back and she couldn't have been cheerier.
- [60:56]
A
Saving governors.
- [60:57]
B
Not a grumpy dog.
- [60:58]
A
You're a political superman. Hold on, Governor.
- [61:02]
B
It was amazing. In fact, not only did they not think they were gonna win. It was really hard to assemble the entire team and the entire family. I'm assuming some of them were asleep. I have no idea. But once it was clear that he had won. And the best part of this celebration was seeing in real time, floor to ceiling, all of the self assured, really vindictive celebrities and other elected officials who had assembled to cheer on Hillary in tears. I mean, just inconsolable.
- [61:33]
A
So you went for the suffering that I did.
- [61:35]
B
I don't normally, but there it was really hard not to appreciate. I mean, it was in technical ways,
- [61:40]
A
a sense of entitlement. Is that the Hillary people had. It was, it was crazy. It's her turn. She never done anything like she, she
- [61:48]
B
had flown a million miles when she was six years old. A million miles. That was literally like her top, her top talking point.
- [61:54]
A
But I think she had a record of like zero achievement.
- [61:56]
B
Zero achievement, but really high self regard.
- [61:59]
A
But the most banal observations about the world. Like I always thought that she had, you know, high feral intelligence, but I never thought there was any evidence that she had any abstract intelligence at all, like conceptual intelligence. Like she couldn't understand, understand the world.
- [62:14]
B
She was too busy surviving. She was a survivor first and foremost. She was a cockroach. Like that way. Yeah, you couldn't kill Hillary. I mean, we've been around since Hillary showed up on the scene.
- [62:25]
A
No, been there the whole time. I ran into her in Riyadh.
- [62:28]
B
Yes, I know.
- [62:28]
A
Two months ago. You think you were there. No, I, Yeah, she's still here with her beard humor. I almost ran into her. I walked in and wow. The only Clinton right in front of me. It's like 4ft tall at this point.
- [62:43]
B
Confirmation that she's still with her girlfriend who's married to George Soros. I know what a sham that is. Most people don't talk about that. They should.
- [62:51]
A
I know, I'm sorry.
- [62:52]
B
She's in public life. She doesn't have a private life. It's worthy of examination.
- [62:57]
A
Yep. Sorry. I'm gonna, I'm gonna stick to my no outing policy. The only person I broke in it for is Barack Obama. I just couldn't. I'm sorry. You know why I did that? Because I really don't think that you should do that. I feel guilty every time I call Lindsey Graham gay. I shouldn't be doing that. That is not the Christian way at all. The only reason I did it for Obama was because there was a guy, an accuser, and they arrested him and tormented him and he died in poverty and obscurity pretty recently. He was a very screwed up dude. He was kind of sad, prison gay kind of guy. He was credible, absolutely telling the truth. There's no question about it in my mind. I mean, you know, it's. He said, he said. But I don't even know if Obama's denied it, but Obama was on the down low for sure, big time. And everyone's like, oh, how dare you say that? Well, his biographer said that Obama himself, in a letter to a distant cousin of ours. I'm embarrassed to say we have a relative who dated Obama, but. Which is like shocking. But anyway, I don't marinate on that. I know you don't know. But anyway, in a real. In a letter to a relative of ours, said, you know, I. I've considered being gay, but it's not challenging enough. It's like, did you ever write letters like that in college?
- [64:15]
B
I don't think I wrote letters to any men, actually. No.
- [64:19]
A
Did you write letters to your girlfriend being like, you know, I was thinking about being gay. Just think about, you know, this morning saying maybe I should be gay. That's not, not enough of a challenge,
- [64:30]
B
I would say about Lindsey Graham. It is fair game because that man holds somehow a lot of power over America's future and America's boys who fight in our wars. Right. And he is.
- [64:43]
A
No, I know. It's just I think we have to, in our business or just in life, fight against the tendency to judge everyone but ourselves for sure. And I think if you're going to tell the truth about other people, you should be required. You should require yourself to tell the truth about yourself first. So. Because it's just so easy to be like, oh, they're bad. They're secretly, you know, sodomites. Okay, well, we're all secretly something. So, like, it's just important to say that anyway.
- [65:10]
B
Sorry, did you say we're all secretly something? Not all secretly. Sodomites. Sorry, just to clarify, Sodomites.
- [65:18]
A
No, we're not. I mean, speak for myself, there is
- [65:22]
B
a lot of that in the Republican Party. I don't understand it.
- [65:24]
A
It's insane.
- [65:25]
B
Can't be accidental. Someone we had dinner with last night, who's very wise, said demonic influences concentrate on those with power. And that is so clearly true.
- [65:35]
A
Believe that was my wife of 35 years who said that. No, she's a wise chick. No, that is totally right. Demonic influence concentrates on those who have power. Beware of power.
- [65:45]
B
Yes.
- [65:46]
A
That's why it's.
- [65:47]
B
And those who seek power.
- [65:49]
A
Yes. No, that is True. It's a chicken and the egg thing to screwed up people go in to politics and business. Or does the reality of living near power, having power, does that destroy them?
- [66:06]
B
I think clearly both. I mean, they've done studies that show an inordinate amount of sociopaths gravitate towards elective office and also corporate power.
- [66:14]
A
Really?
- [66:15]
B
Yeah, yeah. This past year actually, they something like 60% or something were demonstrably sociopathic. Yeah, I mean if you're, if you, if you wake up every morning and say, I am the wisest, I am the toughest, I'm the leader of all men and I can make decisions for other people, there's something wrong with you.
- [66:33]
A
I've never thought that one time in my life I've never looked in the mirror and said, you're a leader of men.
- [66:42]
B
I've suffered some delusion, but not that
- [66:44]
A
one, not that one. I'm like, yeah, well, this is why I think this to myself all the time. We should require every man to have a mirror outside his shower. As you emerge from the shower every day, you see this lumpy, furry primate staring back at you and you're like
- [66:58]
B
weird fur in places.
- [67:02]
A
Can't take yourself too seriously.
- [67:04]
B
Yes, amen. God bless our women, tolerating and loving us. Despite that.
- [67:09]
A
There's this amazing exchange between Jesus and John, Jesus and Peter. Excuse me. At the end of the Gospel of John when Jesus reappears and a couple of the disciples are fishing on the Sea of Galilee and Jesus has prepared this like basically fish barbecue breakfast. He's cooking fish over charcoal. And I don't understand a lot of what it means, but there's one point at which Jesus says, when you're young, you dress yourself. I'm paraphrasing. But when you're young, you dress yourself and go wherever you want, want. But when you're old, others dress you and take you where you don't want to go. And I know that there are of course, theological meanings that I'm probably not smart enough to fully. That means a lot. And I don't understand everything that it means. But on the most literal level, it's true that there comes a time for all of us when we lose agency and autonomy and sovereignty and we're dependent on others and we're so reduced. I'm going to make you emotional thinking about it, because it's the nightmare. Jesus describes it as a nightmare, by the way. He doesn't say, it's okay. He's like, this is bad, it's going to happen. To you, and it's going to happen to all of us. And I just think it's important to keep that ever present.
- [68:22]
B
Well, it's a really good reminder to respect and love those who are younger than you and those in your orbit, to really pay attention to your children and your extended family. I mean, these are the people you'll be, you know, dependent upon when you're older. And we. That is not a concept that you hear much in America. I mean, we move away from our family members, we move away from our parents, when in fact, we should be embracing them, learning from them, but also taking care of them. Yes, absolutely.
- [68:51]
A
No, that is really smart.
- [68:53]
B
It must be by design. It doesn't happen by accident. Nowhere else has that happened. People live well.
- [68:58]
A
I was watching Ben Shapiro the other day, and he said, if you can't find a job in the town you're from, where your parents are buried, where you spent your whole life, that's on you.
- [69:06]
B
Yeah, move out.
- [69:06]
A
Yeah, move out. Go somewhere else. Become a migrant. Like, who do you think you are? You think you deserve to live in the town you grew up in just because your parents are buried there and your grandparents built it? You think you have some right to that? Don't you understand the rules of capital of the globalized economy? Like who? Honestly?
- [69:24]
B
The gall, the entitlement. You should reap the benefits of that which you've worked for your entire life. And that what your ancestors are worth work for.
- [69:34]
A
Yeah, man. I don't think there's anything that's upset me more than that clip. I mean, his many attacks on Jesus, his calls for slaughtering populations, just the bigotry, the cruelty of his program. I don't think anything has made me more enraged than that. Just the kind of. Like what you think you have a right to a community, to a nation? Who do you think you are?
- [69:59]
B
This is a concept.
- [70:00]
A
Yeah.
- [70:01]
B
This is an idea. Yeah, exactly.
- [70:03]
A
Well, it's a really evil idea.
- [70:05]
B
Yes, it is. Is the truth and not sustainable as we're learning?
- [70:08]
A
No, no, not now. Of course it leads to collapse, which is, of course, the point. Because it's animated by hatred.
- [70:13]
B
Yes.
- [70:14]
A
And people who espouse ideas like that are lying. They're not ideas. It's not a philosophy, it's not an ideology. It's an expression of hatred toward a population. And that's real. Nothing's more real than that. So anyway, sorry, getting a field. I beg your pardon, but to trump, because I just think it's so interesting what's happened. So there are three elections for Trump. You vote for him in all three and you do so not reluctantly, but enthusiastically. And in fact, you, and you work for Trump, you write his speeches at the beginning, you know the people around him, including his son in law. And you're kind of punished for it by your neighbors and by people you know. I'm sure you lose business for doing that, but you keep doing it. What's the moment where you're like, ah, I don't know about this.
- [71:11]
B
I'd had a few reservations probably during one I thought, actually early on I was confused that he brought in first, empowered his son in law, who I was kindly disposed to and thought was motivated by loyalty to Trump's program and to Trump. And then early on you knew Jared. I did, yep. And corresponded with him quite a bit, met with him a number of times during the early administration. One of Trump's obvious, well, I met
- [71:41]
A
Jared through you, so I know, you
- [71:43]
B
know, yeah, one of Trump's obvious efforts, deficits. To anybody who was looking at him, even if you loved him for being an outsider, you knew that Washington was like a really complicated machinery and you need people who are well versed in navigating it and making it work because the federal government is just an enormous kind of out of control machine. And if you don't have people who understand the levers of power and how to propel your program forward, you will fail. And especially Trump, who had a very adversarial Republican Party, weasels like Paul Ryan, who had been elevated by Trump's victory and was newly the speaker of the House, hated Trump.
- [72:24]
A
So why would Paul Ryan hate Trump?
- [72:26]
B
That's a really good question. Especially because he should have been really grateful that Trump was in power and thereby his power derived from Trump's success. But none of them, none of them seemed to feel that way.
- [72:37]
A
But Paul Ryan especially hated Trump.
- [72:40]
B
Yes, yes, he did.
- [72:43]
A
What do you think that comes from?
- [72:44]
B
I think he was a weak man and a bitter man and boy, did he use his obstructionist power to the detriment of not just Donald Trump, but the people who had voted for Donald Trump. So early on, Trump didn't take that seriously. One thing that made him super attractive was he was an outside candidate. He wasn't a politician, he was a businessman. And he was there for a very specific purpose. And yet he came in and not only didn't understand how Washington works, he didn't take the appropriate measures to protect himself and his agenda. Instead he reverted to type and hired a bunch of Goldman Sachs people and Billionaires and empowered his son in law, who had been a Democrat until the day before, I think through the election, he had been a Democrat and a globalist. And so that was concerning and upsetting. And then the country got completely overwhelmed by the faux controversy around the Russia stuff, which was, on its face, absurd. If you knew anything about Donald Trump or anything about the campaign, you knew that not only did they not rely upon Russia for help, they had a hard time coalescing their own power. I mean, they were not an organized machine and they were not aligned with any foreign power. And so that was insane. But it occupied the country. I'm still quite bitter about it, actually. And people don't talk about it. We've suffered so many humiliations on the national stage since that people don't focus on it enough. But it paralyzed the country and paralyzed the administration. And I felt like Trump is responsible for that because leaders need to be able to delegate and they need to recognize where their weaknesses are and they need to account for those weaknesses. And he didn't. And he empowered a lot of people he shouldn't have empowered. So I was dispirited during the early administration. It was clear to me and anybody else who was watching that he was going to win reelection despite all the COVID stuff. And at that time we didn't know the details, how complicit Trump was by empowering the pharmaceutical companies during COVID how responsible he actually was for that offense, that biological war against the country that he's supposed to lead. At that time, I think most people, and I was sympathetic to Trump, the position that he was in. And then when. So it was clear that he was going to win re election. I thought it was clear that he won reelection on election eve. I mean, he was over the top. I mean, the numbers were there for him. He won until they stepped in and took it away from him. So. And then I thought he acted crazily.
- [75:41]
A
I mean, who is they?
- [75:43]
B
The Summer of Love with George Floyd, which was obviously a complete scam. The man was killed, unfortunately, but he had had, you know, he'd stuffed a bunch of fentanyl his ass and he was upright and forthright with the cops who showed up on the scene. The famous video started actually minutes before when he'd come out and come out of the store and he was sitting in his car with those two other people and he tried to pass the counterfeit dollars and he said to the cop, I cannot breathe. So it was clear that it was a manufactured crisis from the beginning. It was designed to divide America, and it was designed to get rid of white cops.
- [76:21]
A
Get rid of white cops preparatory to whatever's coming next.
- [76:24]
B
Yes, very much so. And the lefts, you know, antifa hordes took over neighborhoods in America, destroyed statues, killed people, destroyed businesses, ran rampant all over the country. But also in Washington, D.C. where Trump was president. He didn't have any natural allies in the media. Of course they distorted it, they lied about it. That was clear. But Trump is the chief executive. Trump is the President of the United States. And yet he failed to exercise his power and to quell the riots. He failed to articulate what was going on. He failed to defend a law enforcement officer who's still riding in prison, by the way, who was wrongfully prosecuted and obscured the original report that demonstrated that Floyd had died from a fentanyl overdose. But really, he failed to exercise his power. Trump did. He failed to.
- [77:20]
A
He allowed a riot outside his house. I called him at that time, like, dude, you cannot allow people to set things on fire across from your house.
- [77:29]
B
You're the president, like the oldest Episcopal church in the St. John's country. Yeah, yeah. So he abetted that by weakness or indecision or whatever. It doesn't matter. He failed in his job to reassert power and control, and he failed to articulate what was at stake, and he failed to protect himself and his countrymen and his physical country. So, yes, I was upset about that. And then he won reelection. He also. He won reelection and was taken from him. But even his efforts to galvanize support throughout the country, to direct the FBI to investigate, to direct the Department of Homeland Security, to articulate clearly that it had been stolen, he just kept repeating silly talking points that weren't that compelling and made him look crazy. But he failed to use the power at his hand. And then, of course, it was taken away from him and he sulked off into ignominy. He was impeached, but not convicted. And then he went off into the wilderness, where he soon started raising an enormous amount of money. And my understanding is that he raised over a billion dollars during those wilderness years. And every time he spoke about it, it was all about Donald Trump's personal woes, which were significant because these people were not only trying to crush him legally and abuse the judicial system against him, and in Florida and Georgia and New York, famously, but it was all about Donald Trump. Was all about the Donald Trump suffering. It was never about the people that had gone there with legitimate license to protest against an election that was stolen from them. Stolen from them in front of them. These people were exercising their First Amendment rights to speech and assembly, and they were crushed by their own government and they were crushed by people within their own party and the other party. They were crushed by law enforcement, they were abetted by the military. They were abetted, of course, by the media and the corporate losers all over the country. So there was a major headwind. But Trump has the strongest voice in the country. Even then, people listened to what Trump said. Trump could have an impromptu press conference wherever he went. Whatever Donald Trump said was worthy of listening to. So he had the biggest microphone in the country and he never once utilized that for the benefit of the Americans who'd supported him. Not only in 16, not only throughout the entire Russia nonsense, not only throughout the George Floyd nonsense, but through the election in 2020. That gave me a lot of pause. I was like, what kind of reprehensible human being would not. It's the most basic thing to protect your friends and in politics, your supporters, but anybody who's on your side and your fellow Americans. And he had a lot of power to do so, and he didn't exercise that power on behalf of anyone else. It was all about Donald Trump. So there was a period.
- [80:31]
A
You're making my heartbeat fast.
- [80:34]
B
Sorry, I was.
- [80:34]
A
No, you're right.
- [80:35]
B
Hadn't tapped into this emotion in quite some time. A lot of people are having this discussion now in the context of Trump's obvious betrayal of the American public. Not just his voters, but the people who thought 16, 20 and certainly 24 were absolutely existential elections. And that there was no other person on the planet who could come in and right the ship, return sanity to our great country, to save our country is like the last opportunity on every front. Like we're, we're crumbling. We've got these enemies within, we've got these enemies all over the world who'd taken advantage of us during the Biden years. Cuz we had such a weak and incompetent and obviously joke of a presidency. And all these people around Biden who had wielded his power in his name to destroy this country. So Trump was legitimately the last hope in 24, but before that, in 2021, 22. In 21 and 22, when he was raising all this money and it was the Donald Trump victimhood show, he had failed when it mattered to articulate what Americans were protesting during January 6th, to articulate that it was actually a conspiracy by the federal government, abetted by all of these other big influences.
- [82:01]
A
Yeah, I'M the one who put that. Those tapes out there.
- [82:03]
B
Oh, I'm a. I don't know how
- [82:04]
A
it fell to me, but. Yeah, yeah, I'm like some stupid cable news employee. Right?
- [82:08]
B
You have. You're just a. You're a truth seeker and. Yeah, but I mean, that's it. Yeah, but you have no institutional power.
- [82:14]
A
No, it's like a dumb cable news show. Who cares? Right?
- [82:17]
B
But what's the point of having law enforcement? What's the point of having a military?
- [82:21]
A
What's the point of making. Exactly.
- [82:23]
B
If you can't rely upon them to protect the Constitution and protect the Americans who abide by it and pay their taxes and work hard and raise their families and love this country. And so Trump failed on a monumental level at that time.
- [82:40]
A
That was after Covid. Now, you said something really interesting. You didn't take the vax. Thank God. Literally, thank God.
- [82:47]
B
Never once considered it.
- [82:48]
A
I didn't either.
- [82:49]
B
So obviously thank God.
- [82:52]
A
But Trump did and encouraged everyone else to take it and then never apologized, even when it became clear that the vax had killed hundreds of thousands of people around the world and has never really been studied in this country. But we can extrapolate and assume it killed. I mean, it killed people.
- [83:06]
B
I know, Me too. I know young men now who took it, who have myocarditis and other heart problems.
- [83:13]
A
For sure.
- [83:13]
B
Weird cancer.
- [83:14]
A
It was poison. Look at the cancer rates. Look at the fertility rates. Like, everything about it was a bioweapon aimed at us. And Trump didn't apologize for that. I don't know all the things that I've just ignored or forced myself to ignore, whatever my flaws come out as I remember all of this, and my shame emerges. Well deserved shame.
- [83:37]
B
But anyway, Trump is completely absent shame about it. He, to this day will still talk about the success of Operation Warp Speed, which allowed these things to come to market, which allowed the.
- [83:47]
A
You know what he said to me? I actually raised it with him because I'm so upset about it. It's just killed too many people and it made too many women infertile. And it's just the most evil thing ever. And it's still on the schedule. And this is so immoral, it's hard to believe this is even happening. But he did exactly the same thing. Again, it's my fault for not being like, whoa, that's a red line, I can't cross it. But he did the same thing he did on the Iran war. When I talked about the Iran war, you say, well, like, this is hurting all these People. He's like, you don't believe in the polio vaccine? Like, that was a good vaccine. Don't you think it's like. Like, I guess I believe in the polio. I don't know. I mean. But that's not what we're talking about. The polio vaccine is a totally different thing. I mean, I don't even know enough about it. Even though we grew up next to the Salk Institute. It's like, what does it have to do with it? You mentioned Iran. He's like, do you think they should have nuclear weapons? No, I don't think. Not for nuclear weapons in general, but it was a non sequitur designed to shut down the conversation.
- [84:44]
B
And the same tactic that's been employed by his political adversaries his entire political life.
- [84:49]
A
Exactly.
- [84:49]
B
So it's like, really? You're going to misquote. You're going to misdirect. You're going to. Yes.
- [84:58]
A
Construct a straw man.
- [84:59]
B
Yes. There we go.
- [85:00]
A
Well, you're an anti Semite. You're racist. Do you think a rod should have nuclear weapons? Are you pro Islam? No, I'm an Episcopalian. Leave me alone. What?
- [85:11]
B
I saw data Yesterday that said 80% of Americans took the kill shot. Seven million babies have been compelled to have this shot this year alone.
- [85:20]
A
This year.
- [85:21]
B
This year alone. Yep. And every medical. Every doctor.
- [85:26]
A
Are you being serious?
- [85:26]
B
I'm being totally serious. Every new med student who comes out of doctoring school is compelled to take it. Hospitals are still.
- [85:36]
A
So you gotta commit an abortion and take. Take the MRNA shot before you can become a doctor. Wonder. Wonder why. You know, doctors are, like, the worst people in America. Because they break them at the outset.
- [85:47]
B
Exactly.
- [85:48]
A
They make them complicit in a true crime. Yes. And once you're complicit, it's like, you can't join MS.13 until you kill somebody. You can't be an OBGYN until you murder a baby. Then you're, like, in on it.
- [85:58]
B
You can't wear the Hell's Angels patch until he shot someone in the face and gotten gonorrhea. Okay.
- [86:06]
A
No, it's so. Right. Yeah. There's almost too much. Sorry. You're working me up into a frenzy.
- [86:14]
B
Sorry. Me, too. I shelved some of this.
- [86:16]
A
Okay, so that's kind of my question. So this all happens in Covid. You're a Covid dissenter. You're an honest man who believes in actual health. You're not taking the shot. Your family's not taking the shot. But Trump is encouraging the Shot and then is still encouraging the shot and they're still giving it out. Under the Trump administration, was this a red flag for you or you're just like, oh, it's too much. I can't deal with this.
- [86:38]
B
It's really so hard to keep track of it because at the same time, the entire world seems like it's crumbling all the time. Seems like we live during the Twilight Zone. During the Biden administration, everything was like a daily offense, really. Could that be happening? There are no adults around. Like, no one's going to.
- [86:53]
A
Tearing down all statues to whites. Yes. Replace them with like.
- [86:56]
B
Like the judicial system has become totally corrupt and frightening. Exactly.
- [87:00]
A
Jury trial is like a nightmare scenario. Yeah. I mean, you don't have any peers left in America to try you a
- [87:09]
B
jury of your peers. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, man. No, you're right.
- [87:14]
A
There's just a cascade of tragedy. So it's like hard to.
- [87:17]
B
You got to earn a living at the same time and protect your family and your children while all of these offenses are going on. It's really hard to keep up. But when you start thinking about the things that Trump had done, especially when you're looking back now on the incredible, not just betrayal, but his sense of disdain for the people that had worked on his behalf, for the people who'd believed in him, for the people who had sacrificed so much, and it really, it's hard to know, hard to remember now, but it was only a couple years ago if you said you were a Trump administration, if you were a Trump voter, Trump fan, people had license to like, beat you up in public and take your stuff, smash you in the face, take your hat off your head. Like, that was the prevailing attitude in America that was allowed to continue. Like, law enforcement would never come to your rescue. It's like, oh, it's like the age old thing. Oh, you wore slutty outfits, so you're being raped. It's like, oh, you wore Trump paraphernalia. Therefore you know that you're going out in public and someone's going to assault you. Like, that was pretty much the law of the land during so many years. I think it's my perspective about it.
- [88:26]
A
Well, you're literally true.
- [88:28]
B
Yeah, Literally true. Yeah. Terrifying. So I didn't focus on it. And also, you know, it's a binary choice. Who is going to run this country? It wasn't obviously, cackling camel toe was not going to be entrusted with power.
- [88:43]
A
Who is cackling camel toe?
- [88:45]
B
She's that.
- [88:47]
A
Was she on the ballot? I. I actually voted in this election. Don't normally do it. I didn't. I didn't see any cackling camel toe on the roster.
- [88:54]
B
She was that Jamaican lady who, you know, was the AG of California. Oh, Carmela Harris. Yes, that one. And then the woman who couldn't pronounce
- [89:01]
A
her own first name consistently.
- [89:03]
B
Literally three or four different pronunciations. Hammered all the time. And not in a good way.
- [89:10]
A
Her husband's like. Like smacking women around.
- [89:14]
B
And also probably on the other team, I think, demonstrate.
- [89:19]
A
I mean, I never.
- [89:20]
B
But it was a joke, and it was an in your face offense daily. Like, I mean, these are the people who employed Karine Jean Pierre at the White House podium.
- [89:30]
A
Right. Totally forgot about her.
- [89:31]
B
I mean, we grew up at a time where serious people presumed to speak on behalf of the President of the United States.
- [89:37]
A
Yeah.
- [89:38]
B
President of the United States was like, had some decorum. He was the daddy, you know, Even if you didn't agree with the President of the United States, you kind of respected him. He's got all this power invested in him on your behalf, and every word mattered. Every word was parsed. And the people who spoke on his behalf were serious people. And my entire life, they were serious people.
- [90:01]
A
It was like, so maybe it's inevitable that you get. Once the patriarchy has been overthrown, as it has been.
- [90:07]
B
Yes.
- [90:07]
A
You get a president like this who's emotional all about himself, is perpetually the victim.
- [90:14]
B
Remember, they used to say the president's most valuable commodity was his time. Yeah. That's the most valuable thing the President has. What does he focus on? How does he spend his time? He's got a finite amount of time. What does he focus on? And with Trump, you're like, oh, he's focusing on the itunes, background music for his thing. He's focusing on the, you know, new Arc de Triomphe to Trump that he's putting up at the end of Memorial Bridge. He's focusing on the ballroom. It's like, are you serious? Get real and get serious about your responsibilities. And no one ever says anything about that. In fact, these days, I find this is a new phenomenon I've never encountered. You attack Trump on the basis of substantive policy decisions that he's made, betrayals that are obvious and quantifiable, and you will get people in your facing. How dare you attack the President? Are you serious? That guy works for me. That guy works for you?
- [91:15]
A
Yeah. Listen up, bitch. Yeah, yeah.
- [91:17]
B
I'm sorry. No. Your opinion matters. My opinion matters. Every American's opinion matters. We should be heard. We should be respected. And no way am I gonna be kowtowed into not saying the obvious, which is this guy has failed in his responsibility. He is disdainful towards the American people. He's disdainful towards the people who put him in office. And the people who sacrifice, sacrificed a lot, real physical and economic injury to get this man in office. And to witness the vitriol and the moronic and just the never ending me, me, me, me, me. And you're not with me. I'll define what the program is now once I'm in office. It doesn't work that way. You define the program before you run for president. People attach themselves not to you as a person, they attach themselves to your program for their benefit. It. And that's the whole point. So, yeah, I'm mad about it.
- [92:13]
A
So what was the breaking point for you, as someone who had a Trump bumper sticker, wrote his speeches, voted for him three times, wore the Trump T shirt, wore the MAGA hat in Northwest D.C. what was the point at which you'd. And who also has acknowledged that, like, for a decade, attacking Trump, hating Trump, being mad at Trump were all kind of markers for attitudes that were anti American, anti white, anti you.
- [92:40]
B
Absolutely.
- [92:41]
A
So for you to be criticizing Trump in public and to feel as vehemently as you do, you certainly have justification. I think you've shown that. But to say it is another question. What was the point at which you decided, I can't be part of this?
- [92:57]
B
Part of it is the rebirth he had in 24. It was just the. I mean, you could discard as irrelevant a lot of the attacks on Trump because they became just like background noise. Oh, he said this. Oh, he. Even early on when he. Oh, he asked Hillary. He asked the Russians to steal Hillary's emails when that clearly wasn't what he said. That was clearly wrong. Oh, he is an. He's a white supremacist. And he's never denounced these people. I mean, all of that stuff took on. It was such universal background noise that you'd be like, okay, you're absurd. Anybody who says something like that, you're just a liar, you're dumb. It doesn't even mean he's a racist. It doesn't mean anything. But then legitimately upset about his failure to stand up for America and Americans during the George Floyd thing, his complete abnegation of responsibility with January 6 political prisoners.
- [93:54]
A
He pardoned them.
- [93:57]
B
Oh, he did pardon them. He did. And that represented the first time that he'd ever stuck up for them. And when really mattered is when they were, you know, rotting in prison with no constitutional guarantees of a speedy trial or hygienic conditions or ability to eat real food or not being assaulted by cockroaches or, you know, prison guards who use them as sport. And it was completely, not only allowed, tolerated, but expected and even celebrated in the media and by Republican elected officials, many of whom are still in Congress, by the way. So there was that. But, yes, he pardoned them once he was in office. But my understanding from several people, I remember witnessing it at the time, because I was upset that he said nothing on their behalf. Again, that's the power he could have wielded when he was in the wilderness. He could have talked about them first and foremost. He could have informed people about the conditions they were in, and he could have supported. But he also could have supported them with the huge financial cash that had been flooding in to him personally, because he never stopped raising money. He raised an enormous amount of money in the wilderness years, and he spent not a dollar of it for the benefit of those people, didn't pay for their legal fees, didn't take out advertisements on their behalf, didn't do anything that he should have done that anybody with a lot less resources would have done. So I forgot your question. Forgive me, given all of that.
- [95:24]
A
Oh, and. But he pardoned them.
- [95:25]
B
But he originally pardoned them. Yes, but it took an enormous amount. There's someone named Suzanne Monks who was very active advocate on their behalf. I think she's a wife of a fellow who was incarcerated. I may be getting that wrong. But she was dogged and persistent throughout all of it. And she claims now, and I believe it, she's reminding people at the moment that the Trump we have now, that has betrayed his base and well beyond his base, every other American who relies upon him to steward this country with sobriety and concern for them first and foremost. And only that it wasn't easy to get Trump to pardon them, that she had to personally rally people. And you were helpful in this, to push his hand, to force his hand, to make it untenable for him not to pardon them.
- [96:18]
A
Them.
- [96:18]
B
And so he did.
- [96:19]
A
I. I did do that. I talked to you.
- [96:21]
B
I know you did.
- [96:22]
A
Just on principle. I didn't, you know, whatever.
- [96:24]
B
But you say on principle. It's principle that you have. It's not principle that Donald Trump had.
- [96:28]
A
You got to fight injustice. That's the whole point of leadership.
- [96:31]
B
Yes, very much so.
- [96:32]
A
Is to help your people and to the extent you can, like we're Never going to defeat injustice. It's the state of the world, but you have to keep trying.
- [96:39]
B
Yeah, you do what you can. And he had a lot in his arsenal to do that, and he did it. And it's pretty easy, as he's demonstrated, to sign documents, pretty easy to sign executive orders, whatever power they have. But. So it wasn't a lot of skin off Donald Trump's back to do that. He did the right thing and I applaud him for it, just as I applaud him for closing the border. It's like those two things. I can't really think of many other things that he's done. I can't think of anything else really that he's done since he's been in office now for a year and a half. So he did the right thing eventually under great pressure and good for him for doing it. But he could have done it a lot earlier. He could have made a much greater impact for the benefit of those Americans who were not rich, who were not well known, who were motivated by completely reasonable and constitutionally protected outrage over what had been done to them. I mean, they are representative of America, not just Trump voters. America and Americans. The best kind of people, I think. And to see them, by the way, in the background. I know it didn't get a lot of news at the time. Periodically it would. No time in American history has the FBI been rallied with such vigor and focus and economic empowerment. Like to go in and root out these supposed criminals. What had they done? They had walked on the grounds of the U.S. capitol. The People's House. Exactly. And then they'd gone about back home to their hometowns to take care of their children and their jobs. And they would have manhunts, like publicized manhunts with 30 guys in SWAT gear and helicopters in their neighborhoods.
- [98:32]
A
Arrest the unarmed whites.
- [98:33]
B
Yeah, got it, yeah. Meanwhile, all of our cities are crumbling and Washington D.C. was like a free for all for gangs and carjackers and people walking around with guns in public. You know, it's okay for the criminals to have guns, but God forbid there would be some hard working taxpayer exercising his right in the Second Amendment and the First Amendment. So the two foundational freedoms in our country. And Trump was unwilling, willing to protect them in any meaningful manner until he signed their pardons. Again, good for him for doing so, but he still failed in that responsibility as far as I'm concerned.
- [99:06]
A
So what was the breaking point for you
- [99:11]
B
really? Initially it was the, the attack on, the attack on Iran, initially last year when I guess we successfully eradicated all of their nuclear capability. Were you aware, because it was still on. I'd heard that it may still be on the, the White House website because it was on there even when we engaged in this latest war with Iran. This unnecessary, what will be probably a forever war that has killed Americans and is going to degrade us as a country significantly. Already has. It was that. And then it was his reaction. Well, his complete failure the first year to hold anybody to account for all of the crimes, the obvious crimes, all of the things that had been exposed from Russia to COVID policy to the January 6th stuff. I mean, all of that has been demonstrably revealed to be the Capitol Hill pipe bombers. Capitol Hill pipe bombers, all of the Biden era corruption, the auto pen scandals, the preemptive pardons, the people who had abused their national security credentials and their positions of power to hurt Americans. That is all laid out, laid out even by his own intelligence officers. Tulsi Gabbard, a year ago revealed that Barack Obama was directly guilty, I believe, of treason. I don't know how you could say it any other way. A former president who advocated and financed and allowed his national security apparatus to survey and obstruct and take out a sitting US President who, again, is not a man, he is representative of the power that we invest in him as Americans. So it's not an offense against Donald Trump. It's an offense against you and me and everybody we know. So his complete failure to utilize the information that he had at his fingertips and in Justice Department and By the way, U.S. congress, U.S. senate, three levers of power supposedly designed and at his disposal to enforce the law, to restore sanity, to hold people accountable for breaking the rules to the detriment of our country and Americans. And he failed to do that. And then he attacked Iran, then Charlie. I guess there are many other things in between. But once Charlie Kirk was murdered, I feel like he failed on a tonal level. I don't feel that he displayed enough real sympathy or focus on finding Charlie Kirk's death. I mean, killers, forgive me. And on solving the crime, on using the entire apparatus, the US Government, to solve this crime in a way that would allay people's fears of a conspiracy or other things going on. Donald Trump should have gotten up and given a press conference and said, we are going to find out who's responsible for this. It doesn't matter what the, what the end result show. We have a responsibility as a public figure who was publicly assassinated and we're not going to tolerate this and whoever's responsible for it is going to be brought to justice. And he totally failed to do that. I think he failed to articulate that. And he failed to use, again, the apparatus that is entrusted to him to do that. And it's a huge apparatus, by the way, which while the rest of America is degrading and getting less effective, I think we have a very effective, very clued in surveillance and technology and well funded US Military and law enforcement apparatus that knows every detail about Americans at all times. They can reconstruct. They could tell, you know, if you were in the Capitol during January 6th through a whole variety of means. But your cell phone, primarily, they know who was there, they know who's everywhere. They know where you are at all times. They can listen in on you, but they can certainly pinpoint where you've been and what you've done. So why wouldn't you utilize that power to the benefit of justice?
- [103:25]
A
This. Yeah, I mean, the Director of National Intelligence, the head of the Counterterrorism center, like, yeah, these are people who are appointed by you to root out corruption, to, you know, fight back against foreign threats, make America safer.
- [103:42]
B
But yeah, defend our, defend our citizens against not just attack, but foreign attack. If there's any element of foreign involvement here, which it seems early on there was. And then the fact that he. Sorry, can I continue this answer? Only because it makes me so mad. The weird, the weird dynamics surrounding Charlie Kirk's death, the investigation, the initial press conference held by the supposed head of the FBI, Kash Patel, who said a lot of nonsensical things behind that podium and no one has ever explained it. What does it mean to see. I'll see you in Valhalla, Charlie. What is the significance of the number 33?
- [104:29]
A
What does that mean?
- [104:31]
B
I don't know. No one's ever been compelled to answer that question. But Kash Patel stood at the podium and made a very big point. He could have made a lot of points. First of all, they released video of the supposed killer, Tyler Robinson, jumping off like a 20 foot but roof was a very bad quality video. Even though they had high quality video on that entire campus. They released this ridiculous, like, absurd, like 1973 quality VHS tape video of the supposed killer. They released all of his supposed text messages. That detail, all of the. If you were looking to incriminate yourself, if you had gotten away with the perfect crime, then you inexplicably decided to write down everything, every incriminating detail of your crime. We're supposed to believe that he did that. We're supposed to believe that the guy in the crowd, George Zinn, who'd been in various other hotspots like the Boston Marathon bombing, and he'd been a witness at 9 11, that George Zinn is going to just immediately erupt out of his seat, take his trousers off and run down screaming, waving his hand, saying, I shot Charlie within the first 30 seconds of it. Right, like you wouldn't if you wanted people to believe.
- [105:49]
A
Feels a little Jack Ruby.
- [105:50]
B
It does. Very much so. I was expecting Tyler Robinson to be visited in prison by Louis Joyland West. Yes, exactly.
- [105:58]
A
I pronounce you crazy.
- [106:01]
B
And then you have an inexplicable fast acting cancer that kills you within six months. Oh, that's normal. But sorry, back to the Kash Patel thing. The fact that he gave this press conference that was devoid of any real detail that you would want in the aftermath of this public execution, but then to emphasize things that seem so random and inexplicable, like Valhalla. Who the hell knows what Valhalla is? And how is it appropriate to this?
- [106:27]
A
Well, in Scandinavians, we know what Valhalla is, which is, you know, it's the Norse heaven. It's a pagan understanding of heaven.
- [106:34]
B
Yes.
- [106:34]
A
Right. So Charlie Kirk is a serious orthodox, lowercase O Christian. He's like a real Bible believing Christian. He does not believe in Valhalla. He rejects Valhalla.
- [106:48]
B
Yes.
- [106:48]
A
Like, that's ridiculous, actually, to say that about a Christian man. Valhalla?
- [106:52]
B
Yes.
- [106:54]
A
No, we're monotheists who believe in Jesus. There's no Valhalla in my world.
- [106:57]
B
Yes.
- [106:58]
A
Why would you say that?
- [107:00]
B
And no one's ever held him to account. He's never felt compelled to explain it or the emphasis on 33. It took 33 hours to bring this guy to justice. And then he repeated it several times. What?
- [107:14]
A
I don't know. I literally have no idea.
- [107:17]
B
So everything surrounding it creates obviously unrest and disillusionment and anger.
- [107:24]
A
Can I say my favorite line? We had dinner with Russell Brand at home last night. Obviously you were there. And his line that the thing about lone gunmen is they always seem to assassinate people who challenge institutional power. It's kind of amazing. Your average lone gunman just goes out, who knows why, and kills people who are criticizing the people in charge. Maybe the people in charge should connect with the lone gunman community. Kind of like McDonald's and Coca Cola got together. It's just like a natural partnership. Have they ever thought of that? So I shouldn't be laughing with the murder of a friend of mine. But like, it is the absurdity, and I'm not laughing at the murder phase, but it's. Yeah, the lone gunman. Yeah. That's incredible. The lone gunman never take out anyone who's helping establish power. You ever noticed that?
- [108:18]
B
Oh, I have. You'd think they'd stop using the lone gunman. They've used him so often.
- [108:28]
A
But it was the war that finally scrambled your eggs.
- [108:32]
B
Yes, yes, the war, Charlie. And then of course, the Epstein files. Oh, the Epstein files, The Epstein files, the JFK files, the 911 files. All things that he had committed to showing to the American people who actually own it and have every right to know the details about that huge terrorist attack and, and the assassination of our president. And obviously the Epstein network, which not only had a ton of victims, but obviously represented hidden power over our elected leaders. So Trump had committed to doing all three of those things. He's done none of them. But beyond just abdicating his power, he was disdainful of those. This is when he first started defining maga, Make America great Again, as Donald Trump the man, like, investing within himself in almost biblical fashion, like, no, MAGA is not what I articulated clearly and coherently for 10, 12 years in public life. And as President of the United States, MAGA is what I say it is today, tomorrow morning, anytime during the day, because I'm Donald Trump. So I will determine what is maga. And further, if you consider yourself to be allied with this political coalition that I created over a decade, then I don't need you. If you're insisting upon transparency and the things you're insisting upon me making good on the promises that I made to you in this relationship that we have, I promise you something. You vote me into office so I can effectuate the change that you voted for, then if you are insisting upon that, then you're a flipping couple and I don't need you. So it was really at that moment when that was his response to the Epstein files, and then when he engaged in the most ham handed PR stunt I've ever seen, which was great because it revealed how many fake paid for, you know, supposed influencers there are on the right, brought them to the Oval Office, gave them binders full of Epstein material that had already been in the public domain for a very long time, and said that was the entirety of it. And then of course, because he's Donald Trump, he contradicted himself six or seven times. You know, this was. Epstein wasn't real. Epstein was a pedophile. He didn't have any victims. He got his elected officials out there to say those things in front of Congress. It's just laughable. And, and then of course, he turned on Marjorie Taylor Greene, who I think of all the elected members of Congress represents in sincere, hard working fashion what it meant to be a not Trump fan, but a Trump lieutenant. I mean, this was someone who was inspired by Donald Trump and Donald Trump's program to leave her successful business, run for Congress and thank God for her because she got there and discovered what a captured institution it is, how flawed the individuals there are, how hostile they are to the American people who put them there, and specifically the Republican voters who put them there. And then to see Trump turn on her and treat her the way that he treated her was, you know, she's an individual and she's tough and she can handle it. But that kind of like repetitive crazy disloyalty. And to treat someone who had actually put themselves to hard work to great effect was unforgivable. I thought that's when I really started.
- [112:22]
A
She texted Trump and she said, my son is getting threats because I've disagreed with you on the Epstein files. And Trump responded to her by text message and said, said he deserves it. It's your fault, people threatening the kid's life. And Trump says, no, no, you, you, you brought this on him. It's on you.
- [112:44]
B
That's disgusting. It's outrageous. I didn't know that. That's. It's terrible. It's terrifying too, actually, to be so tone deaf. To be so evil, but to also be so tone deaf.
- [112:57]
A
So what? And then the, the war in Iran, which he, he clearly had no plan for, wasn't enthusiastic about at all. He was fully aware of the risks. He was fully aware that it was a betrayal of his explicit promises for 10 years not to do this. He did it. He did it against his will. That's my highly informed read.
- [113:16]
B
Yes.
- [113:17]
A
I mean, I could be wrong. You don't know what people's motives actually are. But from very close vantage, I can say I don't think he was excited about it, but he did it. Clearly he felt he had no choice. And I think that's widely understood.
- [113:33]
B
Yes. Yeah. But I have no sympathy for him for doing that. Right. I don't.
- [113:39]
A
Why?
- [113:39]
B
Sorry. Because, yes, he's Donald Trump the man, but he's just one man. And invested in him by all of US and 72 million American voters is an enormous responsibility. Here's a guy who had had demonstrable success in his life, had Done a lot of things. Accumulated enormous power and money and has a big family. He's 80 years old, he's got grandchildren. I just don't have any sympathy for someone who is. I do have sympathy for a regular person who is being threatened and pressured.
- [114:19]
A
Yes.
- [114:21]
B
So physical threats, okay, so someone shoots you. They tried to shoot him. Someone tried to shoot him twice. That's demonstrable. But his level of fear over that to me is not even. I'm not sympathetic to it. It's not excusable. He is not just one man. He's the President of the United States. He, Even if his power is limited as, as he's demonstrated, it obviously is limited. He does have the power to stop and hold a press conference and be like, I don't know what it looks like. But he could say, I'm under incredible pressure from this outside force. Obviously Israel is exerting this pressure on him. He could be forthcoming and straightforward about it and rally the American people behind him. People who not be. So a lot of people know it, a lot of people are aware of it and they're upset about it and he should just acknowledge it it and say, I'm in this untenable position, but I'm no longer going to put up with it. And even if our government is thoroughly corrupted in every single aspect of our government and there's this outside foreign power that is generating all this fear, there are some elements of the US Government he could be using to his benefit to root them out for sure. It just requires him to have the fortitude to declare it. The other thing is.
- [115:42]
A
No, can I just ask you to pause?
- [115:44]
B
Yes.
- [115:45]
A
That is one thing you learn from growing up in D.C. and just being around it a lot is that these agencies are totally corrupt and the structure of them is just rotten. And it's really hard for good people to have any effect on outcomes. Doesn't mean there aren't good patriotic, intelligent people serving in every single one of these agencies. And you never want to say a nice word about, about CIA or DoD or DoW or whatever they're calling it now, but any of these agencies. But it's just a fact that there are really good people motivated by patriotism who work there. They're not the majority, clearly. They're not in control of the levers, obviously, but they're there.
- [116:24]
B
Yes.
- [116:25]
A
And some of them have migrated over to the White House. I mean, they work there right now. I know them so. And really smart. Like, wow, I can't believe someone that smart works in the government. That patriotic, that pure of intent, like really good people. I can hardly believe it. I guess maybe it's just a numbers game. You get 10 million people in a government. Like, some of them are going to be outstanding, but they are. And there's been so little effort to find them, to empower them. And to the extent that they have been empowered, Jo Ken, for example, they get completely destroyed. And then you have people like Sebastian Gorka, who I don't even know if he's an American citizen, but he's clearly like a highly damaged person. Not a smart person, not a loyal American in any sense, and he's still there.
- [117:12]
B
It's such a daily offense to those people.
- [117:15]
A
I guess what I'm saying is, and you would just know this because of the life that you've led, you could make a good faith effort at identifying those people. Of course, you'd have to go through. There'd be a huge fight. It was very, very hard. But you could try to find those good people, right?
- [117:31]
B
Yes, I would think so. That's my point. He could coalesce. The true, legitimate, smart, dedicated Americans who were there, who must feel impotent rage over what's going on.
- [117:43]
A
They text me. They're all, like, on the verge of resigning. Yeah, no, I know.
- [117:50]
B
It's been hugely dispiriting, actually, that Jo Kent seems to be the only one who's come out, out publicly and on principle.
- [117:56]
A
Well, they're all making this calculation like the good people. And there are a ton of them left in the administration, including in the White House. There are good people. I just can verify that there are. Yeah.
- [118:05]
B
With good.
- [118:07]
A
They don't all agree with me on everything, but that's okay. But their motives are pure. They're not there to get rich. They're there to serve their nation. And they're all thinking to them, the ones I have spoken to, which is a lot of them, like, well, you know, I'm here. I can do good on the margins. Like, something will pass my desk, and maybe I can have an effect, like, God put me here for some reason, I should probably do my duty, even if I hate it.
- [118:28]
B
Yes. They have to start thinking bigger picture.
- [118:31]
A
You may be right. You may be totally right.
- [118:33]
B
I'm sure they're siloed or whatever. And I'm sure that's some comfort to know that they're being true to themselves and true to the country. But at some point, it's going to take. It's gonna take those people actually talking to each other and saying, enough is Enough. I mean, I actually think we do have remedies for an out of control, megalomaniacal, you know, destructive president. I think honest people who have that power should consider taking it. 25th amendment is there for a reason. It's not crazy to talk about it in this context. If our country is suffering great and lasting damage, which it seems to be, then sober minds need to come in and exercise what power they have for the benefit of all of us. Easier said than done, I'm sure.
- [119:18]
A
Right? Easier said than done. But I mean, it's certainly, I think saying the truth, whatever you think that it is, is the first step toward redemption of yourself and of your country.
- [119:30]
B
Yes.
- [119:30]
A
Tell the truth. That's your number one duty.
- [119:34]
B
Can I say one other thing?
- [119:35]
A
Of course.
- [119:36]
B
I'm certain the fear of physical, the physical threat is real.
- [119:41]
A
Yeah.
- [119:41]
B
Obviously demonstrated a lot. But also, if it's shame, if there's blackmail material, as there is on so much of our elected officials, if there isn't, Trump, it's like, I'm sorry, you've demonstrated that you don't have any personal shame. I mean, you've demonstrated that a lot. You persevered through all of these accusations of disgusting personal behavior. How shocking is it really, if there are pictures of you doing compromising things? Not very. And. And it doesn't even matter. Like, actually, I hate the term, but sack up. Like, really, you. Again, it comes back to the obligation that he has, not just to Donald Trump, to everybody else in the country. Well, beyond Donald Trump, who cares? He can survive.
- [120:24]
A
So looking back, being cuz, I mean, you and I and everyone else who supported him, you wrote speeches for him, I campaigned for him. I mean, we're implicated in this for sure.
- [120:34]
B
Yes.
- [120:35]
A
It's not enough to say, well, I changed my mind, or like, oh, this is bad, I'm out. It's like, in very small ways, but in real ways, you and me and millions of people like us are the reason this is happening right now.
- [120:49]
B
Yes.
- [120:50]
A
So I do think it's like a moment to wrestle with our own consciences. We'll be tormented by it for a long time. I will be. And I want to say I'm sorry for misleading people. It was not intentional. That's all I'll say. But anyway. But the question does present itself immediately, like, what is this? Was this always the plan? You don't want to be a conspiracy nut, but clearly there were signs of low character. We knew that.
- [121:18]
B
Yes, but it didn't.
- [121:19]
A
There are tons of people of low character who outperform their character. It doesn't have to be sort of
- [121:26]
B
the norm, actually, these days.
- [121:27]
A
I would say I've outperformed my character a lot. Kind of don't have especially high character. Right. But, you know, you try to. Whatever. You try your best, but. But what, what, what was this? Was this always the plan?
- [121:42]
B
You know, looking back after the last year and a half, it seems like it kind of was. And it's easy. Well, you could get really deep about it and say, what was Butler like? How was it that he and Ryan Ruth. I mean, he was subject to two legitimate assassination attempts? Have we ever gotten to the bottom? I know you've talked a lot about this, but have we ever gotten to the bottom?
- [122:03]
A
I haven't talked a lot about it. I don't know the answer, but I know that those investigations have been stymied. Fact.
- [122:09]
B
Yeah. Stymied from the very top. From people who actually would have the power to get to the bottom.
- [122:14]
A
And the motive.
- [122:14]
B
Yes, very much so. The enormous amount of money he got from Miriam Adelson now seems. It seems suspect to a lot of people at the time, but there's a lot of money in politics. To run for president requires an enorm. I mean, Kaklin Camel toe went through $2 billion in four months. So, sure, there's an argument to be made that you get money from those who will give it to you. It's just the nature of that game. But it's still reprehensible and it's still big. Question mark. Why would someone who has obvious and demonstrated allegiance to a foreign power give Donald Trump $250 million while he's running for president? I mean, how is that defensible? It's really not. If Russia had given a PAC for Trump, if the mayor of Moscow had somehow assembled an enormous amount of money and put it in a 501C3 for Trump's benefit, would that have been acceptable? Of course it wouldn't have been so basic. Comes back to the money. What did they get in return for that amount of investment? And it's clear.
- [123:26]
A
I get it. No, I mean, of course I agree with every word that you're saying. I just think given his behavior and his demonstrated disloyalty and viciousness to previous supporters.
- [123:39]
B
Yes.
- [123:41]
A
Why wouldn't he display the same lack of loyalty to Miriam Adelson? I mean, that's kind of the question. The only people he's been loyal to are the neocons and his donors. So he's attacked, you know, so he attacks Islam Some of us stand up and say, probably shouldn't be attacking a religion. Oh, you're a Muslim. Secret Muslim. You love Muslims. No, just. I like reverence. And I don't think you should attack people on the basis of their religion. Don't attack the religion.
- [124:11]
B
Yes.
- [124:13]
A
And all these, like, evangelicals are like, oh, see, you're a Muslim. The next week, he attacks Jesus. Okay. Because it's all connected. Right.
- [124:22]
B
Clearly.
- [124:22]
A
Of course.
- [124:23]
B
Well, beyond money, obviously.
- [124:25]
A
But the one person he's never going to attack is Rabbi Schneerson.
- [124:30]
B
Yes.
- [124:31]
A
And you know, the Chabad leader who's passed. But who I'm not attacking, by the way, but who was regarded as the Messiah by many of his followers. I don't think Trump should attack him. Him, to be clear. But Trump would never attack him. That's the one Messiah he will never attack. So, like, what is that? Am I wrong?
- [124:53]
B
No, you're not wrong.
- [124:54]
A
It's totally cool to attack Jesus. Oh, it's a joke. I'm a. I was saying. I was a doctor. I heal people. Well, that's how Jesus described himself, by the way. You're still. You're attacking Jesus.
- [125:03]
B
Yes. No, demonstrably. So we did. Obviously.
- [125:05]
A
On a Sunday. You're attacking Jesus on a Sunday. It's totally fine. But we all know. And again, I'm not asking that he attack Rabbi Schneerson. He should not. But he never would. He'd die first. So, like, what? You tell me what that is.
- [125:19]
B
Gosh, I wish I knew. I wish I knew. But. I know. But he should be called to respond.
- [125:24]
A
I agree.
- [125:25]
B
Yeah. Very much so. It makes no sense. Although it's revealing, as you're indicating. Plus, Trump is a totally secular human being who never held a Bible, didn't put his hand on the Bible, obviously. That's enough offensive statement right there. That should have been. He's the only person in the United States who's never put his hand in the Bible during his inaugural.
- [125:46]
A
Yeah.
- [125:46]
B
What the hell is that?
- [125:47]
A
I don't know if that means he's a secular person. I think it means he's got a different religion.
- [125:51]
B
No, I'm saying he had been perceived as a secular individual. And clearly there's.
- [125:58]
A
So where does this go?
- [126:02]
B
I wish I could answer that question. I don't know. I don't. It doesn't seem like we're getting out of Iran anytime soon. It doesn't seem like the Strait of Hormuz is going to open anytime soon. It doesn't seem like Bibi Netanyahu is going to allow us to achieve peace. Doesn't seem like American power is getting any stronger. Doesn't seem like the American people are going to stop suffering anytime soon. I think at some point. I mean, there are mechanisms for dealing with a government that's not responsive. I hope it doesn't go there, but it does. If you people are upset, Man, I've never seen anything like it, actually.
- [126:43]
A
Is that true?
- [126:44]
B
Oh, people are outraged. And why wouldn't they be?
- [126:47]
A
Do you don't. And you at this point, I mean, given your views and your name and your life, like, you're not hanging out with liberals. You've never hung out with liberals, ever. You're the least liberal person. American liberal. You literally carry a gun and smoke unfiltered cigarettes.
- [127:08]
B
May I have one?
- [127:09]
A
No. Of course you may sleep in bed with dogs and like, the whole thing. So it's not. You're not coming at this from. Like, you don't have a lot of friends who are Starbucks baristas, right?
- [127:20]
B
I do not.
- [127:21]
A
Right.
- [127:21]
B
No. Although I do share. I mean, I wish. I kind of wish I'd listened. The evidence was there that Trump didn't have a stable footing and wasn't.
- [127:32]
A
What are the. By the way, Let me just. Is that even still sold in this country?
- [127:35]
B
Camels. They're very hard to find. They're very expensive, especially in a world where tobacco is quite expensive.
- [127:41]
A
Those have been made continuously since 1913.
- [127:46]
B
I think every American military man up until Vietnam had these in his C rations. Yep.
- [127:54]
A
General Blackjack Pershing. Yes. Cabled back from France to President Woodrow Wilson and said, send more Camels. We will win the war with these.
- [128:06]
B
A friend of mine, right before this interview, great guy named Paul Leslie was. Sent me a rider from Frank Sinatra, one of Frank Sinatra's conference concerts in the early 80s. And it was a rider stipulating all of the various things he needed in the back room. It was like, you know, specific chocolates, specific booze, and it was two cartons of Camel straights. Isn't that great?
- [128:33]
A
You've been smoking those since you were a child. How do you feel?
- [128:38]
B
Empowered. I really do. I do. I feel so much better. I've been back on them. I left. I let them aside. I never thought was a quitter. And I left these behind for a decade and a half.
- [128:50]
A
Is that true?
- [128:51]
B
I did. I love nicotine. But actually having the physical, having this in your hand, being able to exhale, being able to. It's an amazing taste. It's unrivaled taste.
- [129:01]
A
It Is that. That's the brand I smoked my whole life. And it's just a. It's a great cigarette, by the way. It's a lot lighter than people believe.
- [129:09]
B
Yes. Lucky Strike's a lot tougher, actually, which our father smoked.
- [129:13]
A
Yeah.
- [129:13]
B
Yeah.
- [129:13]
A
Is a strong cigarette, but, no, that's not a strong cigarette.
- [129:18]
B
Especially smooth.
- [129:20]
A
Yeah, I totally agree. Flavor with chocolate. Same formula? Pretty much. I think we have to call RGR
- [129:25]
B
to find out, but it's no different than I. The one I smoked in 1982. I think I was 11 and 19.
- [129:35]
A
Yeah, it's a good cigarette. So, anyway, sorry, but my only point was, and I think it's obvious to people watching this, you're probably not hanging around with a bunch of, you know, non binary Kamala Harris voters. So most people, you know, voted for Trump and strongly supported him.
- [129:52]
B
Very much so.
- [129:54]
A
How do they feel?
- [129:55]
B
I don't know a single person who doesn't feel betrayed, left behind, upset, hostile, freaked out about the consequence of this. Yeah, I mean, it's not a small thing, what we've done. I mean, if you're. If the President of the United States is not just your. I don't think he was my protector, but he's the protector of the country. He represents the country.
- [130:15]
A
That's correct.
- [130:16]
B
And that's his sole job, actually. One job. One job, One job only is to husband the resources that you have that you were given. And he's failed on every level, but he's also degraded what we have, what we had, and was already under attack for so long. So it's unclear what's gonna happen. But I've never seen, you know, I'm 55. I've seen a lot of what could have become unrest. I've never seen more fertile ground for real unrest than what we have now, especially with the advent of AI, the current economy, our debt, and the prospect of more Americans dying in a country they can't find on a map and fighting a fight that they can't articulate, don't understand, and don't want.
- [131:04]
A
So you got to wonder if that's accidental. I mean, like, if you wanted to destroy the country, this is exactly what you'd do.
- [131:10]
B
Well, the entire program for the latter half of my life has seemed designed to weaken this country, to divide people, to make them less happy and more enslaved.
- [131:22]
A
It does seem that way. I. You know, I don't. I don't know that there was, like, a meeting at Bilderberg or Bohemian Grove or whatever.
- [131:35]
B
It's so precise and so Overwhelming and so universal on every front that it could not have been accidental. These are not just.
- [131:43]
A
Yeah, you wonder if it was a conspiracy of, of instinct. I mean, when the George Floyd thing happened, I was confused as to what was going on because I'm literal. I mean, I'm against, you know, obviously vandalism and rioting and hate the whites. It's just like, that's just a no go for me immediately. But I didn't understand its purpose, I didn't understand its scale. I just didn't get it. I was mesmerized by what was happening in Minneapolis outside the convenience store. Right. And the New York Times ran a piece, I'll never forget it. And in it they quoted some art critic from New York, like from the West Village or something. It was literally in New York. And he said, two days in he goes, this is the revolution. It's like, like certain people tuned into the frequency of destruction of evil. Like they recognized it immediately, just like they recognized Trump immediately as a threat to them. They've neutralized that threat somehow. But I guess, but anyway, they could feel it. And this art critic whose name I can't even remember, but he's, he was
- [132:49]
B
celebrating it, I must say.
- [132:50]
A
He was celebrating. Oh, absolutely. He was absolutely celebrating it, like, because. But he knew that this was more than simply about the death of some guy trying to pass a bad hundred at a convenience store. This was a reordering of American society. We're gonna get rid of all the white cops because we need to do that in order to. Something, whatever. I mean, there's some reason why they wanted that.
- [133:10]
B
And you effectuate peace.
- [133:11]
A
Yeah, no, probably not. Anyway.
- [133:16]
B
Protect the women and the children.
- [133:17]
A
Protect the women. No, to destroy. That's the point of evil, of course. So I don't know, maybe these are unknowable questions.
- [133:28]
B
It's can't be, it can't be. It can't be a confluence of random events. It is clearly by design. It's clearly been a long term plan. That's just obvious.
- [133:40]
A
Last question. Do you, given the attitudes you've described, like total contempt for people who supported him, total reverence for or unwillingness ever to criticize people who are clearly opposed to the United States. Do you feel personally threatened?
- [133:57]
B
I think the backlash that we're going to see and whatever comes, I mean, the reaction from the lunatic left is going to be overwhelming. They may be disorganized. Now, that's the other thing we didn't talk about, is that Trump's coalition that he put Together he had so demonstrably and definitively spanked, shamed, destroyed. The left destroyed. I mean, the level of dispiritedness and disorganization among the left in November of 24 and December of 24. I mean, they didn't engage in any kind of retrospective or they didn't try to figure out how they could represent the country or the party or fix the problems. Of course, they never do that.
- [134:38]
A
But we're gonna take this opportunity to help black people. Since we love black people so much, we're gonna spend our years in the wilderness trying to elevate black people.
- [134:47]
B
They didn't do that.
- [134:47]
A
It never occurred to them.
- [134:48]
B
They'll never do that.
- [134:50]
A
They'll never do that.
- [134:51]
B
But what they did do was they recognized that their political fortunes were dashed for some time to come, because it was obvious. It was obvious that Trump had a total mandate to do the things. Oh, yeah, that he had been, which is obviously why people are so upset that he didn't grasp the nettle and do what he said he was going to do, because he had such fertile ground to do it, and he had houses of Congress, and he could have actually accomplished a lot more than just signing executive orders and closing the border. God bless him for closing the border. But why hasn't he, you know, expelled the 50 million people who are here illegally?
- [135:24]
A
Why are we still importing people? And they're announcing now, we're import more people, we're going to give citizenship to the illegals that we supposedly. We're going to deport now we're giving them citizenship.
- [135:33]
B
It's absolutely obscene. But people don't talk about that enough. That the way forward was really rosy and it was a rebirth of America in November of 24. People felt that, and the left was crushed definitively. And now we're several months from the midterm elections. It seems very clear that. That the Republican Party hasn't delivered anything. Trump delivered a war and delivered higher prices and delivered misery. That's demonstrable. And unless it's a corrupt election, which of course it will be, the Republicans are going to lose power. Trump's agenda, if there is one, is going to come to a halt. And the left has, if anything, a very long memory. And they are vindictive planners. They are not, you know, reactive. They are. They are reactive, but not effectively so. They're effective planners, and they spend a lot of time thinking about this and the retribution they will use. Retribution. Trump was accused of, you know, planning retribution. It would have been actually justice. He never made that point though he should have. Restoring order and restoring justice to the system. The left is going to be vicious and it's gonna hurt a lot of people at a time when probably not
- [136:56]
A
Trump, 80 year old Trump, probably not
- [136:57]
B
Trump's, probably not Trump's family either, which is something we haven't talked about because the focus that he's had we talked about, you know, he's focused on arches and music but he's really focused on business for Trump and the Trump family and they've conducted a lot of it and and they've amassed a lot of wealth on paper but also a lot of real assets and real cash and they're going to be inoculated and none of his supporters will be. So Uncle Buck, thank you for having me. Buckley sp Carlson thank you for having me.
- [137:34]
A
I love it.
- [137:35]
B
I love it.
- [137:36]
A
I will see you in Maine.
- [137:37]
B
I love it. Thank you.