Exclusive: Russia Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov Describes the War With the US and How to End It

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Tucker Carlson Show – "Exclusive: Russia Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov Describes the War With the US and How to End It"

Episode Details

• Title: Exclusive: Russia Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov Describes the War With the US and How to End It
• Host: Tucker Carlson Network
• Release Date: December 5, 2024

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Introduction and Context

In this exclusive episode of The Tucker Carlson Show, host Tucker Carlson delves deep into the escalating tensions between the United States and Russia, featuring an in-depth interview with Russia's Foreign Minister, Sergey Lavrov. The discussion centers on the covert war between the two nations, the potential for nuclear conflict, and the pathways to de-escalation.

Undeclared War Between the US and Russia

• Tucker Carlson [00:23]: Carlson opens by asserting that the U.S. and Russia are engaged in an undeclared war, heightened by recent missile strikes from American forces in Russia resulting in Russian casualties.

• Lavrov's Stance: Lavrov counters by downplaying the notion of an official war, labeling the conflict in Ukraine as a "hybrid war" rather than a full-scale war [03:22].

Nuclear Tensions and Lack of Communication Channels

• Immediate Escalation Risks: Carlson warns that the current trajectory is perilously close to a nuclear confrontation, surpassing even the tensions of the Cuban Missile Crisis [01:12].

• Absence of Back Channels: Lavrov expresses surprise at the lack of effective communication channels between Moscow and Washington, attributing this void to U.S. Secretary of State Tony Blinken's actions [02:28].

• Notable Quote [16:12]: Lavrov explains Russia's readiness to utilize any means necessary to protect its interests, emphasizing that nuclear war remains a last resort to avoid global catastrophe:

  “We hate even to think about war with the United States, which will take nuclear character... the most important thing is to avoid a nuclear war.”

U.S. Foreign Policy and Ukraine Conflict

• Sanctions and Isolation: Lavrov criticizes the extensive sanctions imposed by successive U.S. administrations, arguing they have only strengthened Russia and pushed it eastward [49:05].

• Minsk and Istanbul Agreements: Lavrov highlights the failure of the Minsk Agreements and the subsequent Istanbul Principles as foundations for peace, blaming the Ukrainian government for sabotaging these efforts [31:45].

• Notable Quote [37:09]: Discussing the halt of peace negotiations, Lavrov insinuates external influences:

  “He [Boris Johnson] was motivated by some immediate desire or by some long term strategy... probably the Americans are involved.”

Cultural Suppression and Rights in Ukraine

• Language and Cultural Rights: Lavrov accuses the Ukrainian government of systematically eradicating Russian language and culture through various legislative measures since 2017 [04:14].

• Human Rights Violations: He draws parallels between the treatment of Russian-speaking populations in Ukraine and historical decolonization processes, asserting that Ukraine has failed to uphold the UN Charter's principles regarding human rights [16:14].

NATO Expansion and Russian Security Concerns

• NATO's Role: Lavrov vehemently opposes NATO's eastward expansion, viewing it as a direct threat to Russian sovereignty and security [50:07].

• Permanent Alliance with China: While not explicitly stating a formal alliance, Lavrov underscores the geographical proximity and strategic necessity of aligning with China against Western encroachment [60:00].

Navalny and Domestic Russian Politics

• Alexei Navalny’s Death: Lavrov touches upon the mysterious circumstances surrounding the death of opposition leader Alexei Navalny, criticizing the lack of transparency from European nations regarding his treatment [41:19].

Potential Pathways to Peace

• Conditions for Ceasefire: Lavrov outlines Russia's terms for ending hostilities, which include:

  • Non-inclusion of Ukraine in NATO
  • Respect for Russia’s security interests
  • Restoration of rights for Russian-speaking populations [31:45].

• Trump Administration Hopes: Carlson suggests that the incoming Trump administration, known for its promise to end the war, might offer new avenues for negotiation. Lavrov expresses cautious optimism but underscores the current impasse [46:05].

Risks of Nuclear Escalation

• Limited Nuclear Exchange: The conversation intensifies around the dangers of even a limited nuclear exchange. Lavrov warns against any form of nuclear brinkmanship, emphasizing mutual annihilation risks [83:14].

• Notable Quote [83:25]: Lavrov stresses the folly of predicting a nuclear exchange that spares the U.S.:

  “Professionals in deterrence... they know it’s a very dangerous game. To speak about limited exchange of nuclear strikes is an invitation to disaster.”

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with a tense exchange highlighting the deep-seated mistrust and conflicting narratives between the U.S. and Russia. While Lavrov portrays Russia as a nation defending its sovereignty against Western aggression, Carlson presses the urgency of finding a peaceful resolution to avert global catastrophe.

Key Takeaways:

• The U.S. and Russia are entangled in a covert conflict with significant risks of escalation.
• Diplomatic channels between the two superpowers are severely strained, increasing the likelihood of misunderstandings.
• Russia demands respect for its security concerns and opposes NATO’s expansion as central to any peace negotiations.
• The situation remains volatile, with nuclear confrontation a tangible threat if current tensions persist.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Tucker Carlson [00:23]: "We are now in a hot war with Russia, an undeclared war, a war you did not vote for and that most Americans don't want."
• Sergei Lavrov [16:12]: "We hate even to think about war with the United States, which will take nuclear character... the most important thing is to avoid a nuclear war."
• Sergei Lavrov [83:25]: "To speak about limited exchange of nuclear strikes is an invitation to disaster, which we don't want to happen."

This comprehensive discussion underscores the precarious state of U.S.-Russia relations and the imperative need for effective diplomatic engagement to prevent a potentially catastrophic conflict.

Transcript

[Tucker Carlson]

Welcome to the Tucker Carlson Show. We bring you stories that have not been showcased anywhere else. And they're not censored, of course, because we're not gatekeepers.

[Tony Blinken]

We are honest brokers here to tell you what we think you need to.

[Tucker Carlson]

Know and do it honestly. Check out all of our [e-mail] here's the episode. In the weeks since we left Russia, Moscow, where we are now in February, after interviewing Vladimir Putin, we've watched from the United States as the Biden administration has driven the US Ever closer to a nuclear conflict with Russia, the country that possesses the world's largest nuclear arsenal. It has accelerated ever since, and it's reached its apogee so far in the weeks after Trump's election. He's now the president elect. In that time, just a few weeks ago, the Biden administration, American military personnel launched missiles into mainland Russia in and killed at least a dozen Russian soldiers. So we are, unbeknownst to most Americans, in a hot war with Russia, an undeclared war, a war you did not vote for and that most Americans don't want.

[Tony Blinken]

But it is ongoing.

[Tucker Carlson]

And because of that war, because of the fact that the US Military is killing Russians in Russia right now, we are closer to nuclear war than at any time in history, far closer than we were during the Cuban missile crisis. That would mean the elimination of Russia, the United States, and most of the rest of the world. We felt there must be someone behind the scenes in Washington working to make sure that this conflict doesn't become a nuclear holocaust. But we found out that no. In fact, there is nobody. Tony Blinken, the current secretary of state, cut off all contact between the US And Russian governments. There is no back channel. There is no conversation. There hasn't been for more than two years. That's shocking. Meanwhile, most Americans have no access to any perspective other than that granted to them by NBC News and the New York Times. They don't know how close we are. They don't know the Russian perspective. We've been trying for over a year to get that perspective out to American news consumers. We've also tried for over a year to get an interview with Zelensky, the president of Ukraine. We've attacked that from a bunch of different angles. You've spoken to a lot of different people around him, had dinner with them. We've been in talks continuously. And those efforts have been thwarted by the US Government. The American embassy in Kiev, which our tax dollars pay for, told the Zelensky government, no, you may not do the interview.

[Tony Blinken]

You can talk to cnn, you can't talk to us.

[Tucker Carlson]

So we've been unable to speak to him. So we came back to Moscow yesterday to interview the Foreign Minister of Russia, Sergei Lavrov, the longest serving foreign minister in the world. He's been a part of this government for 25 years. He's been in the diplomatic corps for over 40. And ask him, where exactly are we? Are we headed toward an unprecedented conflict between Russia and the United States? Is there any way to peel Russia back from the east, from the sphere of China, back in to the West? Is that alliance permanent? And does the election of Donald Trump mean an end to this war which is reshaping the world, the US Economy, the global economy, and risking the life of every person on this planet? Is that possible?

[Tony Blinken]

Minister Levroth, thank you for doing this. Do you believe the United States and Russia are at war with each other right now?

[Sergei Lavrov]

I wouldn't say so. And in any case, this is not what we want. We would like to have normal relations with all our neighbors, of course, but generally with all countries or not, especially with the great country like the United States. President Putin repeatedly expressed his respect for the American people, for the American history, for the American achievements in the world. And we don't see any reason why Russia and the United States cannot cooperate for the sake of the universe.

[Tony Blinken]

But the United States is funding a conflict that you're involved in, of course, and now is allowing attacks on Russia itself. So that doesn't constitute war.

[Sergei Lavrov]

Well, we officially are not at war, but what is going on in Ukraine is the. Some people call it hybrid war. I would call it hybrid war as well. But it is obvious that the Ukrainians would not be able to do what they are doing with long range modern weapons without direct participation of the American servicemen. And this is dangerous, no doubt about this. We don't want to aggravate the situation, but since ATACMS and other long range weapons are being used against mainland Russia, as it were, we are sending signals and we hope that the last one couple of weeks ago, the signal with the new weapon system called Dreshnik, yes, was taken seriously. However, we also know that some officials in the Pentagon and in other places, including NATO, they started saying in the last few days something like, well, NATO is a defensive alliance, but sometimes you can strike first because the attack is the best defense. Some others in stratcom, I think Bukhonen is his name, representative of stratcom. He said something which allows for an eventuality of exchange of limited nuclear strikes and these kind of threats are really worrying because if they are following the logic which some Westerners have been pronouncing lately, that well, don't believe that Russia has red lines, they announce their red lines. These red lines are being moved again and again and again. This is a very serious mistake. That's what I would like to say in response to this question. It is not us who started the war. Putin repeatedly said that we started the operation in order to end the war which Kyiv regime was conducting against its own people in the parts of Donbas. And just in his latest statement, the President clearly indicated that we are ready for any eventuality, but we strongly prefer peaceful solution through negotiations on the basis of respecting legitimate security interest of Russia and on the basis of respecting the people who live in Ukraine, who still live in Ukraine being Russians, and their basic human rights, language rights, religious rights have been exterminated by series of legislation passed by the Ukrainian parliament. And they started long before the special military operation. Since 2017, legislation was passed prohibiting Russian education in Russian, prohibiting Russian media operating in Ukraine, then prohibiting Ukrainian media working in Russian language. And the latest, of course there were also steps to cancel any cultural events in Russian. Russian books were thrown out of libraries and exterminated. And the latest was the law prohibiting Canonic Orthodox Church, Ukrainian Orthodox Church. While. And you know, it's very interesting when people in the west say we want this conflict to be resolved on the basis of the UN shattered and respect for territorial integrity of Ukraine, Russia must withdraw. The Secretary General of the United nations says similar things. Recently his representative repeated that the conflict must be resolved on the basis of international law, UN Charter, General assembly resolutions while respecting territorial integrity of Ukraine. It's a misnomer because if you want to respect the United Nations Charter, you have to respect it in its entirety. And the United Nations Charter, among other things says that all countries must respect equality of states and the right of people for self determination. And they also mentioned the United Nations General assembly resolutions. And this is clear that what they mean is the series of resolutions which they passed after the beginning of the special military operation and which demand condemnation of Russia Russia get out of Ukraine territory in 1991 borders. But there are other United Nations General assembly resolutions which were not voted but which were consensual. And among them is a declaration on principles of relations between states on the basis of the Charter. And it clearly says by consensus, everybody must respect territorial integrity of states whose governments respect the right of people for self determination and because of that represent the entire population living on a Given territory. To argue that the people who came to power through military coup d'in February 2014 represented Crimeans or the citizens of eastern and southern Ukraine is absolutely useless. It is obvious that Crimeans rejected the coup. They said, leave us alone, we don't want to have anything with you. So did Donbas. Crimeans held referendum and they rejoined Russia. Donbas was declared by the putschists who came to power, a terrorist group. They were shelled, attacked by artillery. The war started, which was stopped in February 2015 and the Minsk agreements were signed. And we were very sincerely interested in closing this drama by seeing Minsk agreements implemented fully. It was sabotaged by the government which was established after the coup d'in Ukraine. There was a demand that they enter into a direct dialogue with the people who did not accept the coup. There was a demand that they promote economic relations with that part of Ukraine, and so on and so forth. None of this was done. The people in Kiev were saying we would never talk to them directly. And this is in spite of the fact that the demand to talk to them directly was endorsed by the Security Council. And they said, they are terrorists. We would be fighting them and they would be dying in cellars because we are stronger. Had the coup in February 2014, had it not happened, and had the deal which was reached the day before between the then president and the opposition implemented, Ukraine would have stayed one piece by now, with Crimea in it. It's absolutely clear they did not deliver on the deal. Instead they staged the coup. The deal, by the way, provided for creation of a government of national unity in February 2014 and holding early elections which the then president would have lost. Everybody knew that. But they were impatient and they took the government buildings. Next morning they went to this Maidan Square and announce that they created the government of the winners. Compare the government of national unity to prepare for elections and the government of the winners. How can the people whom they, in their view defeated, how can they pretend that they respect the authorities in Kiev? You know, the right for self determination is the international legal basis for decolonization process which took place in Africa on the basis of this charter principle, right for self determination. The people in the colonies, they never treated the colonial powers, colonial masters, as somebody who represent them, as somebody whom they want to see in the structures which govern those lands. By the same token, the people in east and south of Ukraine, people in Donbass and Novorossi, they don't consider the Zelensky regime as somebody, as something which represents their interests. How can they, when their Culture, their language, their traditions, their religion, all this was prohibited. Yes, and the last point is that if we speak about the UN Charter resolutions, international law, the very first article of the UN Charter, which the west never, never recalls in the Ukrainian context, says, respect human rights of everybody, irrespective of race, gender, language or religion. Take any conflict, the United States, uk, Brussels, they would interfere, saying, oh, human rights have been grossly violated. We must restore the human rights in such and such territory on Ukraine. Never, ever. They mumbled the world's human rights, seeing these human rights for the Russian and Russian speaking population being totally exterminated by law. So when people say, let's resolve the conflict on the basis of the chatter. Yes, but don't forget that the Charter is not only about territorial integrity, and territorial integrity must be respected only if the governments are legitimate and if they respect the right of their own people.

[Tony Blinken]

I want to go back to what you said a moment ago about the introduction or the unveiling of the hypersonic weapons system that you said was a signal to the West. What signal exactly? I think many Americans are not even aware that this happened. What message were you sending by showing it to the world?

[Sergei Lavrov]

Well, the message is that you, I mean you, the United States and the allies of the United States, who also provide this long range weapons to the Kyiv regime, they must understand that we would be ready to use any means not to allow them to succeed in what they call strategic defeat of Russia. They fight for keeping the hegemony over the world on any country, any region, any continent. We fight for our legitimate security interests. They say, for example, 1991 Borders. Lindsey Grab, who visited some time ago, Zelensky, for another talk, he bluntly, in presence of Zelensky, I think, said that Ukraine is very rich with rare earth metals and we cannot leave this rich, this richness to the Russians. We must take it, we fight. So they fight for the regime which is ready to sell or to give to the west all the natural and human resources. We fight for the people who have been living on these lands, whose ancestors were actually developing those lands, building cities, building factories for centuries and centuries. We care about people, not about natural resources which somebody in the United States would like to keep and to have Ukrainians just as servants sitting on these natural resources. So the message which we wanted to sell by testing in real action this hypersonic system is that we will be ready to do anything to defend our legitimate interest. We hate even to think about war with the United States, which will take nuclear character. Our military doctrine says that the most important thing is to avoid a nuclear war. And it was us, by the way, who initiated in January 2022, the message, the joint statement by the leaders of the five permanent members of the Security Council saying that we will do anything to avoid confrontation between us, acknowledging and respecting each other's security interests and concerns. This was our initiative. And security interests of Russia were totally ignored when they rejected, about the same time when they rejected the proposal to conclude a treaty on security guarantees for Russia, for Ukraine, in the context of coexistence and in the context when Ukraine would not be ever member of NATO or any other military bloc, these security interests of Russia were presented to the west, to NATO and to the United States in December 2021. We discussed them several times, including during my meeting with Tony Blinken in Geneva in January, late January 2022. And this was rejected. So we would certainly like to avoid any misunderstanding. And since the people, some people in Washington and some people in London, in Brussels, seem to be not very capable to understand, we will send additional messages if they don't draw necessary conclusions.

[Tony Blinken]

The fact that we're having a conversation about a potential nuclear exchange, and it's real, is remarkable, not something I thought I'd ever see. And it raises the question, how much back channel dialogue is there between Russia and the United States? Has there been for the last two and a half years? Is there any conversation ongoing?

[Sergei Lavrov]

There are several channels, but mostly on exchange of people who serve terms in Russia and in the United States. There were several swaps. There are also channels which are not advertised or publicized. But basically the Americans send through these channels the same message which they send publicly. You have to stop, you have to accept the way which will be based on the Ukrainian needs and Ukrainian position. They support this absolutely pointless peace formula by Zelensky, which was auditioned recently by Victory Plan. They held several series of meetings, Copenhagen format, what have you. And they brag that next year, first half of next year, they will convene another conference and they will graciously invite Russia that time. And then Russia would be presented an ultimatum. All this is seriously repeated through various confidential channels. Now we hear something different, including Zelensky statements that we can stop now at the line of engagement, line of contact. The Ukrainian government will be admitted to NATO, but NATO guarantees at this stage would cover only the territory controlled by the government and the rest would be subject to negotiations. But the end result of these negotiations must be total withdrawal of Russia from Russian soil, basically leaving Russian people to the nazist regime which exterminated all the rights of the Russian and Russian speaking citizens of their own country.

[Tony Blinken]

If I just go back to the question of nuclear exchange. So there is no mechanism by which the leaders of Russia, the United States can speak to each other to avoid the kind of misunderstanding that could kill hundreds of millions of people.

[Sergei Lavrov]

No, no, no. We have this channel which is automatically engaged when ballistic missile launch is taking place. As regards this are hypersonic ballistic missile, mid range ballistic missile 30 minutes in advance. The system sent the message to the United States and they knew that this was the case and that they don't mistake it for anything bigger and real dangerous.

[Tony Blinken]

I think the system sounds very dangerous.

[Sergei Lavrov]

Well, it was a test launch.

[Tony Blinken]

Yes. Oh, you're speaking of the test. Okay. But I just wonder how worried you are that considering there doesn't seem to be a lot of conversation between the two countries, both sides are speaking about exterminating the other's populations, that this could somehow get out of control in a very short period and no one could stop it. It seems incredibly.

[Sergei Lavrov]

No, we are not talking about exterminating anybody's population. We did not start this war. We have been for years and years and years sending warnings that pushing NATO closer and closer to our borders is going to create a problem.

[Tony Blinken]

Yes.

[Sergei Lavrov]

2007, Putin. Putin started to explain, you know, to the people who seem to be overtaken by the end of history and being dominant, no challenge, and so on and so forth. And of course, when the coup took place, the Americans did not hide that they were behind it. There is a conversation between Victoria Nuland and the then American ambassador in Kyiv when they discuss personalities to be included in the new government. After the coup, the figure of 5 billion bucks spent on Ukraine after independence was mentioned as the guarantee that everything would be like the Americans want. So we don't have any intention to exterminate Ukrainian people. They are brothers and sisters to the Russian people.

[Tony Blinken]

How many have died so far do you think, on both sides?

[Sergei Lavrov]

It is not disclosed by Ukrainians. Zelensky was saying that it is much less than 80,000 persons on Ukrainian side. But there is one very, very reliable figure in Palestine. During one year after the Israelis started their operation in response to this terrorist attack which we condemned. And this operation of course acquired the proportion of collective punishment, which is against international humanitarian law as well. So during one year after the operation started in Palestine, the number of civilians, Palestinian civilians killed is estimated 45,000. This is almost twice as many as the number of civilians on both sides of Ukrainian conflict who died during 10 years after the coup one year and 10 years. So it is a tragedy in Ukraine, it's disaster in Palestine. But we never ever had as our goal killing people and Ukrainian regime did. The head of the office of Zelensky once said that we will make sure that cities like Kharkiv Nikolai will forget what Russian means at all. Another guy in his office stated that Ukrainians must exterminate Russians through law or if necessary, physically. Ukrainian former ambassador to Kazakhstan forgot his name, became famous when giving an interview and looking into the camera being recorded and broadcast. He said, our main task is to kill as many Russians as we can so that our kids have less things to do. And the statements like this are all over the vocabulary of the regime.

[Tony Blinken]

How many Russians in Russia have been killed since February of 2022?

[Sergei Lavrov]

It's not for me to disclose this information. In the time of military operations, special rules exist and our Ministry of Defense follows these rules. But the very interesting fact that when Zelensky was playing not in international arena, but at his comedy club or whatever it is called, he was. There are videos from that period when he was bluntly defending the Russian language. He was saying, what is wrong with Russian language? I speak Russian. Russians are our neighbors. Russian is our one of one of our languages and get lost. He said to those who wanted to sorry to attack the Russian language and Russian culture. When he became president, he changed very fast. And before the military operations in September 2021, he was interviewed and at that time he was conducting war against Donbas in violation of the Minsk agreements. And the interviewer asked him what he thought about the people on the other side of the line of contact. And he answered very thoughtfully, you know, there are people and there are species. And if you living in Ukraine feel associated with the Russian culture, my advice to you, for the sake of your kids, for the sake of your grandkids, get out to Russia. And if this guy wants to bring Russians and people of Russian culture back under his territorial integrity, I mean, it shows that he is not adequate.

[Tony Blinken]

So what are the terms under which Russia would cease hostilities? Like what are you asking for?

[Sergei Lavrov]

Ten years ago, in February 2014, we were asking only for the deal between the President and the opposition. Yes, to have government of national unions to hold early elections to be implemented. The deal was signed and we were asking for the implementation of this deal. They were absolutely impatient and aggressive and they were of course pushed, I have no slightest doubt by the Americans. Because if Victoria Nuland and the US Ambassador agreed the composition of the government, why wait for five months to hold early elections. The next time we were in favor of something was when the Minsk Agreements were signed. Yes, I was there. The negotiations lasted for 17 hours. And the deal was, well, Crimea was lost by that time because of referendum. And nobody, including my colleague John Kerry meeting with us, nobody in the west was raising the issue of Crimea. Everybody was concentrated on Donbas. And the Minsk Agreements provided for territorial integrity of Ukraine minus Crimea. This was not even raised. And a special status for a very tiny part of Donbas, not for the entire Donbas, not for Novorossi at all. Part of Donbass under these Minsk Agreements endorsed by the Security Council, should have the right to speak Russian language, to teach Russian language, to study in Russian, to have local law enforcement, like in the states of US, to be consulted when judges and prosecutors are appointed by the central authority, and to have some facilitated economic connections with neighboring regions of Russia. That's it. Something which President Macron promised to give to Corsica and still is considering how to do this. And when these agreements were sabotaged all along, first by Poroshenko and then by Zelensky, both of them, by the way, came to presidency running on the promise of peace. And both of them lied. So when these Minsk Agreements were sabotaged to the extent that we saw the attempts to take this tiny part of Donbas by force, and we, as Putin explained, we have at that time we suggested these security arrangements to NATO and the United States, which was rejected. And when the Plan B was launched by Ukraine and its sponsors trying to take this part of Donbas by force, it was then that we launched the special military operation. Had they implemented the Minsk agreements, Ukraine would be one piece minus Crimea. But even then, when Ukrainians, after we started the operation, suggested to negotiate, we agreed. There were several rounds in Belarus and one later they moved to Istanbul. And in Istanbul, Ukrainian delegation put a paper on the table saying those are the principles on which we are ready to agree. And we accepted those principles.

[Tony Blinken]

The Minsk principles.

[Sergei Lavrov]

No, no, no, the Istanbul principle. Yes, that was April 22, right. Which was no NATO, but security guarantees to Ukraine collectively provided with the participation of Russia. And these security guarantees would not cover Crimea or the east of Ukraine. It was their proposal and it was initialed. And the head of the Ukrainian delegation in Istanbul, who is now the chair of the Zelensky faction in the parliament, he recently, a few months ago, in an interview, he confirmed that this was the case. And on the basis of these principles, we were ready to draft a treaty. But then this gentleman who headed the Ukrainian delegation in Istanbul he said that Boris Johnson visited and told them to continue to fight. Then there was.

[Tony Blinken]

But Boris Johnson on behalf of.

[Sergei Lavrov]

He said, no, but you know, the guy who initialed the paper, he said it was Boris Johnson. Other people say it was Putin who ruined the deal because of the massacre in Bucha. But massacre in Bucha is something which they never mentioned anymore. Massacre in Bucha. I do. And we do. In a sense, they are on the defensive. Several times in the United Nations Security Council, sitting at the table with Antonio Guterres, I two years ago and last year, and last year and this year, the General Assembly, I raised the issue of Bucha and said, guys, it is strange that you are silent about Bucha because you are very vocal. When BBC team found itself on the street where the bodies were located, and can we. I inquired, can we get the names of the persons whose bodies were broadcast by bbct? Total silence. I addressed Antonio Guterres personally in the presence of the Security Council members. He did not respond. Then, at my press conference in New York after the end of the General assembly last September, I asked all the correspondents, guys, you are journalists. Maybe you're not an investigative journalist, but journalists normally are interested to get the truth and butcher thing, which was played all over the media outlets condemning Russia is not of any interest to anyone. Politicians, UN officials, and now even journalists. I asked them when I talked to them in September, please, as a professional, as professional people, try to get the names of those whose bodies were shown in Buchi. No answer. Just like we don't have any answer to the question, where is the results of medical analysis of Alexei Navalny, who died recently, but who was treated in Germany in the fall of 2020, when he felt bad on a plane over Russia. The plane landed. He was treated by the Russian doctors in Siberia. Then the Germans wanted to take him. We immediately allowed the plane to come. They took him. In less than 24 hours, he was in Germany. And then the Germans continued to say that we poisoned him. And we asked them, can you. And they announced that the analysis confirmed that he was poisoned. We asked for the test results to be given to us. They said, no, we give it to organization on chemical weapons. We went to this organization, we are members, and we said, can you show to us, because this is our citizen, we are accused of having poisoned him. They said, the Germans told us not to give it to you because they found nothing in the civilian hospital. And the announcement that he was poisoned was made after he was treated in a military hospital, Bundeswehr hospital. So it Seems that this secret is not going.

[Tony Blinken]

So how did Navalny die?

[Sergei Lavrov]

Well, he died serving the term in Russia. But he during as far as it was reported, every now and then he felt not well. Which was another reason why we continued to ask the Germans, can you show us the results which you found? Because we did not find what they found and what they did to him.

[Tony Blinken]

I don't know what the Germans did to him.

[Sergei Lavrov]

Yeah, because they don't explain to anybody, including us. Or maybe they explained to the Americans, maybe this is credible. But they never told us how they treated him, what they found and what methods they were using.

[Tony Blinken]

How do you think he died?

[Sergei Lavrov]

I am not a doctor, but for anybody to guess, even for the doctors to try to guess, they need to have information. And if the person was taken to Germany to be treated after he had been poisoned, the results of then of the tests cannot be secret. We still cannot get anything credible on the fate of Skripal, Sergei Skripal and his daughter. The information is not provided to us. He is our citizen, she is our citizen and we have all the rights and the conventions which the UK is party to to get information.

[Tony Blinken]

Why do you think so many threads? But why do you think that Boris Johnson, former Prime Minister of the UK would have stopped the peace process in Istanbul? On whose behalf was he doing that?

[Sergei Lavrov]

Well, I met with him a couple of times and I wouldn't be surprised if he was motivated by some immediate desire or by some long term strategy. He is not very predictable.

[Tony Blinken]

Okay, do you think he was acting on behalf of the US government on behalf of the Biden administration? Who's doing this independently?

[Sergei Lavrov]

I mean, I don't know. I don't know and I wouldn't guess. The fact that the Americans and the Brits are leading in this quote unquote situation is obvious now. It is becoming also clear that there is a fatigue in some capitals and there are talks every now and then that the Americans would like to live with the Europeans and to concentrate on something more important. I wouldn't guess we would be judging by specific, specific steps. It's obvious though that Biden administration would like to leave legacy to the Trump administration as bad as they can. Yes, and similar to what Obama did to Trump during his first term when late December 2016 Obama expelled Russian diplomats. Just very late December, 120 persons with family members did it on purpose. Demanded them on leave on the day when there was no direct flight from Washington. So they had to move to New York by buses with all their luggage with children. And so on and so forth. And at the same time, Obama announced the arrest of pieces of diplomatic property of Russia. And we still never were able to come and see what is the state of this Russian property. They never allowed us to come and see, though, under all conventions. They just say that these pieces we don't consider as being covered by diplomatic immunity, which is a unilateral decision never substantiated by any international court.

[Tony Blinken]

So you believe the Biden administration is doing something similar again to the incoming Trump administration?

[Sergei Lavrov]

Because that episode with the expulsion and the seizure of property certainly did not create the promising ground for beginning of our relations with the Trump administration. So I think they're doing the same.

[Tony Blinken]

But this time, President Trump was elected on the explicit promise to bring an end to the war in Ukraine. So, I mean, he said that in appearance after appearance. So given that there is hope for a resolution, it sounds like, what are the terms to which you'd agree?

[Sergei Lavrov]

Well, the terms, I basically alluded to them. When President Putin spoke in this ministry on 14 June, he once again reiterated that we were ready to negotiate on the basis of the principles which were agreed in Istanbul and rejected by Boris Johnson. According to the statement of the head of the Ukrainian delegation, the key principle is non bloc status of Ukraine, and we would be ready to be part of the group of countries who would provide collective security guarantees to Ukraine.

[Tony Blinken]

No NATO?

[Sergei Lavrov]

No NATO. Absolutely no military bases, no military exercises on the Ukrainian soil with participation of foreign troops. And this is something which he reiterated, but of course, he said it was April 2022. Now, some time has passed and the realities on the ground would have to be taken into account and accepted. The realities on the ground are not only the line of contact, but also the changes in the Russian constitution after referendum was held in Donetsk, Lugansk Republics and Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions.

[Tony Blinken]

Yes.

[Sergei Lavrov]

And they are now part of the Russian Federation according to the constitution. And this is a reality. And of course, we cannot tolerate a deal which would keep the legislation which I quoted, prohibiting Russian language, Russian media, Russian culture, Ukrainian Orthodox Church, because it is a violation of the obligations of Ukraine under the UN Charter and somebody must be done about it. And the fact that the west, since this Russophobic legislature legislative offensive started in 2017 and the west was totally silent, and it is silent until now, of course, we would have to pay attention to this in a very special way.

[Tony Blinken]

Would dropping sanctions against Russia be a condition?

[Sergei Lavrov]

I would say probably many people in Russia would like to make it A condition. But the more we live under sanctions, the more we understand that it is better to rely on yourself and to develop mechanisms, to develop platforms for cooperation with normal countries who are not unfriendly to you. And don't mix economic interest and policies and especially politics. And we learned a lot after the sanctions started. Sanctions started under Obama. They continued in a very big way under first term of Trump. And these sanctions under the Biden administration are absolutely unprecedented. But what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, you know well.

[Tony Blinken]

But also drives.

[Sergei Lavrov]

They would never kill us. So they are making us stronger and driving Russia East.

[Tony Blinken]

And so the vision that I think sane policymakers in Washington had 20 years ago is why not bring Russia into a Western bloc, sort of as a balance against the rising East. But it doesn't seem like that. Do you think that's still possible?

[Sergei Lavrov]

I don't think so. Recently Putin was speaking at Valdai Club politologists and experts. He said we would never be back at the situation of early 2022. That's when he realized for himself. Apparently not only he, but he spoke publicly about this, that all attempts to be on equal terms with the west have failed. It started after the demise of the Soviet Union. There was euphoria. We are now part of the liberal world, the democratic world, end of history. But very soon it became clear to most of the Russians and that in the 90s we were treated as, at best, as junior partner, maybe not even as a partner, but as a place where the west can organize things like it wants striking deals with oligarchs buying resources and assets. And then probably the Americans decided that Russia is in their pocket. Boris Yeltsin, Bill Clinton, bodies laughing, joking. But even at the end of Yeltsin's term, he started to contemplate that this was not something she wanted for Russia. And I think this was very obvious when he appointed Putin prime minister and then left earlier and blessed Putin as his successor for the elections which were coming and which Putin won. But when Putin became president, he was very much open to cooperation with the West. And he mentions about this quite regularly when he speaks with interviewers or at some international events. I was present when he met with George Bush Jr. With Obama. Well, after the meeting of NATO in Bucharest, which was accompanied, which was followed by NATO, Russia meeting, summit meeting in 2008 when they announced that Georgia and Ukraine will be in NATO and then they tried to sell it to. We asked why there was lunch and Putin asked what was the reason for this?

[Tony Blinken]

Good question.

[Sergei Lavrov]

And they said, you Know, this is something which is not obligatory. How come? Well, you know, to start the process of joining NATO, you need a formal invitation. And this is a slogan, Ukraine and Georgia will be in NATO. But this slogan, you know, became obsession for some people in Tbilisi first when Saakashvira lost his senses and started the war against his own people under the protection of OSC mission with the Russian peacekeepers on the ground. And the fact that he launched this was confirmed by the European Union investigation, which they launched and which concluded that he gave the order to start. And for Ukrainians, it took a bit longer and they were cultivating this pro Western mood. Well, pro Western is not bad, basically. Pro Eastern is also not bad. What is bad is that you tell people, either or, either you go with me or you're my enemy. What happened before the coup In Ukraine in 2013, the President of Ukraine, it was Mr. Yanukovych, negotiated with the European Union some association agreement which would nullify tariffs on most of the Ukrainian goods to the European Union and the other way around. And at some point when he was meeting with Russian counterparts, we told him, you have already. Ukraine was part of the free trade area of the Commonwealth of Independent States, no tariffs for everybody. And we, Russia negotiated agreement with World Trade organization for some 15, 17 years, mostly because we bargained with European Union and we achieved some protection for many of our sectors, agriculture, some others. And we explained to the Ukrainians that if you go zero in your trade with European Union, we would have to protect our customs border with you with Ukraine. Otherwise the zero tariff European goods would flood and would be hurting our industries, which we tried to protect and agreed for some protection. Then we suggested to the European Union, guys, Ukraine is our common neighbor. You want to have better trade with Ukraine, we want the same. Ukraine want to have markets both in Europe and in Russia. Why don't we see three of us and discuss it like grownups? The head of the European Council Commission Commission was the Portuguese. Barozo was his name. And he responded, you know, it's none of your business what we do with Ukraine. We, for example, we the European Union, we don't ask you to discuss with us your trade with China. Absolutely arrogant answer. And then the president of Ukraine, Yanukovych, he convened his experts and the experts said, yes, it would be not very good if we have opened the border with European Union, but the customs border with Russia would be closed and they would be checking, you know, what is coming so that the Russian market is not affected. And he announced in November 2013 that he cannot sign the deal immediately. And he asked the European Union to postpone it for next year. Until next year. That was the trigger for Maidan, which was immediately, yes, thrown up and ended by the coup. My point is that this either or. Actually the first coup took place in 2004, when after second round of elections, the same Mr. Yanukovych won presidency. The west raised hell and put pressure on the Constitutional Court of Ukraine to rule that there must be a third round. And the constitution of Ukraine says two rounds. And the Constitutional Court, under the pressure of the west violated the constitution for the first time then and pro Western candidate was chosen. At that time, when all this was taking place and boiling, the European leaders were publicly saying Ukrainian people must decide are they with us or with Russia? This either or is still very much, very much.

[Tony Blinken]

But it is the way that big countries behave. I mean, there are certain orbits and now it's brics versus NATO, US versus China. And it sounds like you're saying the Russian Chinese alliance is permanent.

[Sergei Lavrov]

Well, we are neighbors. We are neighbors and geography is very important.

[Tony Blinken]

But you're also neighbors with Western Europe.

[Sergei Lavrov]

When you're part of it, in effect, well, through Ukraine. And the Western Europe wants to come to our borders. And there were plans that were discussed almost openly to put British naval bases on the Sea of Azov. Crimea was eyed dreaming about creating NATO base in Crimea and so on and so forth. We want, look, we have been very friendly with Finland, for example, overnight the Finns came back to early years of preparation for World War II when they were best allies of Hitler. And all this neutrality, all this friendship, going to sauna together, playing hockey together, all this disappeared overnight. So maybe this was deep in their hearts and the neutrality was burdening them and niceties were burdening for them.

[Tony Blinken]

I don't know that's totally possible. Can you negotiate with Zelensky? You've pointed out that he has exceeded his term. He's not, you know, democratically elected President of Ukraine anymore. So do you consider him a suitable partner for negotiations?

[Sergei Lavrov]

Putin addressed this issue as well many times. In September 2022, during the first year of the special operation, Zelensky, in his conviction that he would be dictating the terms of the situation also to the west, he signed a decree prohibiting any negotiations with Putin's government. And when, during public events after that episode, Putin is asked why Russia is not ready for negotiations. He said, don't turn it upside down. We are ready for negotiations, provided that will be based on the balance of interest tomorrow. But Zelensky signed this decree prohibiting negotiations. And for starters, why don't you tell him to cancel it publicly? This will be a signal that he wants negotiations. Instead, Zelensky invented his peace formula. Later it was additioned by victory plan. And they keep saying, we know what they say when they meet with European Union ambassadors and in other formats. They say no deal unless the deal is on our terms. And I mentioned to you, they are planning now the second summit on the basis of this peace formula. And they don't shy away from saying we will invite Russia to put in front of it the deal which we agreed already with the West. And when our western colleagues sometimes say nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine, in effect this implies that anything about Russia without Russia, because they discuss what kind of conditions we must accept. By the way, recently they already violate tacitly the concept nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine. There are passes, there are messages. They know our position. We are not playing double game. What Putin announced is the goal of our operation. It's fair, it's fully in line with the United Nations Charter. First of all, the rights, language rights, minority rights, national minority rights, religious rights. And it's fully in line with OSC principle. There is an organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe which is still alive. And the summit of this organization, well, several summits of this organization clearly stated that security must be indivisible, that nobody should expand his security at the expense of security of others. And that most important, no organization in Euro Atlantic space shall claim dominance. This was last time. It was confirmed by OSC 2010 and NATO was doing exactly the opposite.

[Tony Blinken]

Yes.

[Sergei Lavrov]

So we have legitimacy in our position, no NATO on our doorsteps. Because OSC agreed that this should not be the case if it hurts us. And please restore the rights of Russia.

[Tony Blinken]

Who do you think has been making foreign policy decisions in the United States? This is a question in the United States, who is making decisions?

[Sergei Lavrov]

I wouldn't guess. I haven't seen Tony Blinken for years. Two years ago, I think at the G20 summit, was it in Rome or somewhere in the margins? In the margins. His assistant. I was representing Putin and his assistant came up to me during a meeting and said that Tony wants to talk. Just for 10 minutes. I left the room, we shook hands and he said something about the need to de escalate and so on and so forth. I hope he is not going to be angry with me since I am disclosing this, but we were meeting in front of many people present in the room and I said, we don't Want to escalate. You want to inflict strategic defeat upon Russia? He said, no, no, no, no. It is not strategic defeat globally. It is only in Ukraine.

[Tony Blinken]

You've not spoken to him since?

[Sergei Lavrov]

No.

[Tony Blinken]

Have you spoken to any officials in the Biden administration since then?

[Sergei Lavrov]

I don't want to ruin their career.

[Tony Blinken]

But have you had meaningful conversations?

[Sergei Lavrov]

No, no, not at all. No. You know, when I met in international events, one or another person whom I know, an American, I mean.

[Tony Blinken]

Yeah.

[Sergei Lavrov]

Some of them say hello, some of them exchange few words, but I never impose myself because.

[Tony Blinken]

But nothing meaningful behind the scenes.

[Sergei Lavrov]

It's becoming contagious. You know, when they see. When somebody sees an American talking to me or a European talking to me, Europeans are running away. When they see me during the last G20 meeting, it was ridiculous. Grown up people, mature people, they behave like kids. So childish. Unbelievable.

[Tony Blinken]

So you said that when in 2016, in December, the Obama administration left a bunch of bombs basically for the incoming Trump administration in the last month since the election, you have all sorts of things going on politically in bordering states in this region that in Georgia and Belarus, in Romania and then of course, most dramatically in Syria, you have turmoil. Does this seem like part of an effort by the United States to make the resolution more difficult?

[Sergei Lavrov]

There is nothing new, frankly, because the US historically in foreign policy was motivated by making some trouble and then to see if they can fish in the muddy water. Iraqi aggression, Libyan adventure, ruining the state, basically fleeing from Afghanistan now trying to get back through the back door, using the United nations to organize some event where the US can be present in spite of the fact that they left Afghanistan in very bad shape and arrested money, don't want to give it back. I think this is. If you analyze the American foreign policy steps, adventures, most of them is the right word. That's the pattern. Pattern. They create some trouble and then they see how to use it. In Georgia, the OSC monitors elections. When it used to monitor elections in Russia, they would always be. Are very negative. And on other countries as well, Belarus, Kazakhstan, this time in Georgia, the monitoring mission of OSC presented a positive report and it is being ignored. So when you need endorsement of the procedures, you do it. When you like the results of the election, if you don't like the results of elections, you ignore it. It's like when the United States and other Western countries recognized unilateral declaration of independence of Kosovo. They said this is the self determination being implemented. When a few years later, and there was no referendum in Kosovo, unilateral declaration of Independence, by the way. After that the Serbs approached International Court of Justice which ruled that, well, normally they are not very specific, you know, in the, in the judgment, but they ruled that unilateral or rather when part of a territory declares independence, it is not necessarily to be agreed with the central authorities. And when few years later Crimeans were holding referendum with invitation of many international observers, not from international organizations, but from parliamentarians in Europe, in Asia, in post Soviet space, they said, no, we cannot accept this because this is violation of territorial integrity.

[Tony Blinken]

Right.

[Sergei Lavrov]

You are, you know, you pick and choose. The UN Charter is not a menu. You have to respect it in all its entirety.

[Tony Blinken]

So what, who's paying the rebels who've taken parts of Aleppo? Is the Assad government in danger of falling? What is happening exactly in your view in Syria?

[Sergei Lavrov]

Well, we had a deal when this crisis started and we organized the Astana process of Russia, Turkey and Iran. We meet regularly and another meeting is being planned before the end of the year or early next year to discuss the situation on the ground. And the rules of the game is to help Syrians to come to terms with each other and to prevent separatist trends from getting stronger. That's what the Americans are doing in the east of Syria when they groom some Kurdish separatists using the profits from oil and grain salt which they the resources which they occupy. This Astana format is a useful combination of players if you wish. And we are very much concerned. After this happened with Aleppo and surroundings, I had a conversation with the Turkish Minister of Foreign affairs and with Iranian colleague. We agreed to try to meet this week.

[Tony Blinken]

Did you see it coming?

[Sergei Lavrov]

Hopefully in Doha, in the margins of this international conference. We would like to discuss the need to come back to strict implementation of the deals on Idlib area because Idlib de escalation zone was the place from where the terrorists moved to take Aleppo. And the arrangements reached in 2019 and 2020 provided for our Turkish friends to control the situation in the Idlib de escalation zone and to separate the Khayyat Tahrir Asham for Manusra from the opposition which is non terrorist and which cooperates with Turkey. Apparently it is not yet there. And another deal was the opening of M5 route from Damascus to Aleppo which is also now taken completely by the terrorists. So we as Ministers of Foreign affairs would discuss the situation hopefully this coming Friday. And the military of all three countries and the security people are in contact with each other.

[Tony Blinken]

But the Islamist groups, the terrorists you just described, who is backing them?

[Sergei Lavrov]

Well, we have Some information and we would like to discuss with all our partners in this and this process the way to cut the channels of financing and arming them. The information which is being floated and it's in the public domain mentions the Americans, the Brits, among others. Some people say that Israel is interested in making this situation aggravate so that Gaza is not under very close scrutiny. It's a complicated game. Many, many actors are involved and I hope that the context which we are planning for this week will help stabilize the situation.

[Tony Blinken]

What do you think of Donald Trump?

[Sergei Lavrov]

I met him several times when he was having meetings with Putin and when he received me twice, I think in the Oval Office when I was visiting for bilateral talks. Well, I think he's a very strong person, a person who wants results, who doesn't like procrastination on anything. And this is my impression he is very friendly in discussions, but this does not mean that he is pro Russian as some people try to present him. The amount of sanctions we received under the Trump administration was very, very, very big. And we respect any choice which is made by the people when they vote in respect the choice of American people. And we are open, as Putin said, we are open to contacts with, we have been open all along with the current administration. And we hope that when Biden, when Donald Trump is inaugurated, we will understand the ball, as Putin said, is on this side. We never severed our contacts, our ties in economy, trade, on security, on anything.

[Tony Blinken]

And my final question is how sincerely worried are you about an escalation and conflict between Russia and the United States, knowing what you do?

[Sergei Lavrov]

Well, we started with this question more or less.

[Tony Blinken]

We, it seems the central question.

[Sergei Lavrov]

Yes, and the Europeans say that it's not. They whisper, whisper to each other that it is not for Zelensky to dictate the terms of the deal. It's for the US and Russia. I don't think we should be presenting our relations as, you know, two guys decide for everybody. Not at all. It is not, it is not our style. We prefer the manners which dominate in brics, in Shanghai Cooperation Organization where the UN Charter principle of sovereign equality of states is really embodied. The US is not used to respect sovereign equality of states. The United States, you know when they say we cannot allow Russia to win on Ukraine because this would undermine our rules based world order. And rules based world order is American domination now by the way, NATO at least under Biden administration is eyeing the entire Eurasian continent. Indian Pacific Strategies South China Sea East China Sea is already on NATO agenda. NATO is moving infrastructure There Aukus building quartet Indo Pacific 4, they call it Japan, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, US South Korea and Japan are building military alliance with some nuclear components. And Stoltenberg, the former Secretary General of NATO, said last year after the summit, which he said, your Atlantic security is indivisible from Indo Pacific security. When he was asked, does it mean that you go beyond territorial defense? No, no, no. It doesn't go beyond territorial defense, but to defend our territory, we need to be present there. This element of preemption is more and more present, but with the United States, we don't want war with anybody. And as I said, Nuclear. Five nuclear states declared at the top level in January 2022 that we don't want confrontation with each other and that we shall respect each other's security interests and concerns. And it also stated nuclear war is. Nuclear war can never be won, and therefore nuclear war is not possible. And the same was reiterated bilaterally between Russia and the United States. Putin, Biden, when They met in 21 in Geneva in June, basically they reproduced the statement by Reagan and Gorbachev of 1987, I think no nuclear war. And this is absolutely in our vital interest, and I hope that this is also in vital interest of the United States. I say so because some time ago, Mr. Kirby, who is White House communications coordinator or whatever, he was asking questions, answering questions, and about escalation and about possibility of nuclear weapons being employed. And he said, oh, no, no, we don't want escalation because then if there is some nuclear element, then our European allies would suffer. So even mentally, he excludes that the United States can suffer. And this is something which makes the situation a bit risky. If this mentality prevails, then some reckless steps could be taken, and this is bad.

[Tony Blinken]

So what I think you're saying is American policymakers imagine there could be a nuclear exchange that doesn't directly affect the United States. And you're saying that's not true?

[Sergei Lavrov]

That's what I said, yes. No. But you know, professionals in deterrence, nuclear deterrence policy, they know very well that it's a very dangerous game. And to speak about limited exchange of nuclear strikes is an invitation to disaster, which we don't want to happen.

[Tony Blinken]

Mr. Lavrov, thank you very much.

[Sergei Lavrov]

Thank you.

[Tucker Carlson]

Thanks for listening to the Tucker Carlson Show. If you enjoyed it, you can go to tuckercarlson.com to see everything that we have made. The complete library tuckercarlson.com.