The Global War on Christianity Just Got a Whole Lot Worse, and Ted Cruz Doesn’t Care

Summary

The Tucker Carlson Show

Episode: The Global War on Christianity Just Got a Whole Lot Worse, and Ted Cruz Doesn’t Care

Release Date: November 7, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Tucker Carlson delves into the intensifying global persecution of Christians, focusing on recent events in Armenia and Ukraine, and scrutinizes the muted or selective response from Western governments and religious leaders. The show features a detailed conversation with an Armenian expert/advocate and international human rights lawyer Bob Amsterdam, both of whom provide firsthand insight into religious oppression, government crackdowns on the church, and the broader geopolitical forces at play. The discussion also examines the conspicuous silence—or, in some cases, complicity—of Western Christian leaders and the U.S. government, culminating in a broader critique of selective religious advocacy and the use of faith as a foreign policy instrument.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Armenian Genocide as Religious Persecution

• Religious, Not Ethnic, Targeting:
  The Armenian genocide was driven by religious motives, not merely ethnic ones. Ottoman authorities gave Armenians the choice to convert to Islam or face deportation and death.
  • Quote:
    "The first question was will you convert to Islam? Like 98% of the population Armenian population of Ottoman Empire denied." – Armenian Expert (01:55)
• Christian Martyrdom as National Identity:
  The genocide continues to define Armenian culture and collective identity, reinforcing Christianity as its central pillar.
  • Quote:
    "We stood steadfast in our faith and were murdered for it. So Christianity is at the center of Armenian culture." – Tucker Carlson (04:38)

2. Nagorno Karabakh: Recent Conflicts and Christian Cleansing

• 20,000 Killed; Christians Expelled:
  The recent wars with Azerbaijan, supported by Turkey and, controversially, Israel, resulted in the complete removal of Christians from Nagorno Karabakh after centuries.
  • Quote:
    "Now after 2000 years of living in this region, there is no any Christian in region of Nagorno Karabakh." – Armenian Expert (06:32)

3. Geopolitics and the Role of Western Powers

• Israel’s Support for Azerbaijan:
  Israel reportedly provided offensive weaponry and drones (often operated by Israeli companies) to Azerbaijan, with economic interests (oil supply) cited as the motivating factor. The US, by extension, supports these actions via financial aid.

  • Quote:
    "So that would mean that Israelis were killing Christians in this war with US Tax dollars." – Tucker Carlson (11:11)

• Realpolitik and Western Silence:
  Western Christian leaders and allied nations offered little to no material support for Armenia, preferring not to confront powerful geopolitical players like Turkey and Azerbaijan.

4. Armenian Government Crackdown on the Church

• Prime Minister's Authoritarian Shift:
  Armenia’s current PM is accused of attacking the Armenian Apostolic Church, attempting to depose its head, changing its structure, and arresting archbishops and influential lay supporters, including philanthropist Samuel Karapetian.

  • Quote:
    "He took to prison three archbishops." – Armenian Expert (14:58)
  • Memorable Moment (Samuel Karapetian Arrested):
    After making a 37-second statement urging the protection of the church, billionaire philanthropist Samuel Karapetian was publicly threatened by the PM and arrested, drawing mass protests and further arrests of his family.
    • Quote:
      "After 30 minutes of this interview, our prime minister posted in Facebook that this philanthropist must shut his mouth. After three hours he sent police special forces..." – Armenian Expert (17:28)

• Suppression Tactics:
  The government detained clergy and influential laypeople on vague or invented charges. Traditional Christian values are being targeted, with the PM advocating liberal social changes and attempting to erase genocide remembrance to facilitate rapprochement with Turkey and Azerbaijan.

  • Quote:
    "He wants to change the narratives of the church to forget the issue of genocide, forget our history." – Armenian Expert (13:26)

5. Western Religious Establishment and State Department

• American Christian Leadership Complicity or Silence:
  Many Western Christian organizations either ignore or are complicit with oppressive regimes. Upcoming prayer breakfasts in Armenia feature American evangelical celebrity Franklin Graham alongside officials jailing clergy.

  • Quote:
    "The leader of the country is trying to split the church by going to services of a defrocked priest... and yet, shockingly, this prayer breakfast is going to go on." – Bob Amsterdam (31:24)

• State Department Instrumentalizing Religion:
  U.S. policy is criticized for using religion as a tool for foreign policy, backing certain religious groups when expedient and ignoring persecution elsewhere for geopolitical reasons.

  • Quote:
    "The US Government decides what Christians we support and what Christians we don’t." – Bob Amsterdam (31:09)

6. Ukraine: Persecution and State Control of Orthodox Church

• Destruction of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church:
  The government of Ukraine, with tacit Western support, is accused of persecuting, torturing, and criminalizing the traditional church, transferring assets to a state-sanctioned institution.
  • Quote:
    "Ukraine is a one party, one person autocratic state that has no comparison to any democratic values. Rather, today is a mirror of the old Soviet Union." – Bob Amsterdam (39:06)
  • Media Silence and Defamation:
    Western media and Christian leaders are almost totally silent; those who speak out (including Amsterdam) are tarred as Russian agents.

7. Media, Propaganda, and the 'Selective Outrage' Phenomenon

• Coordinated Propaganda:
  The spotlight on Christian persecution in Nigeria is seen as a distraction tactic, drawing attention away from abuses in Ukraine and Armenia that Western governments have ignored or abetted.

  • Quote:
    "It's an effort to draw the attention of faithful Christians in the United States away from long standing persecution that we have studiously ignored in Ukraine and other parts of the world." – Tucker Carlson (70:48)

• General Decay of Western Political Elites:
  The episode concludes with a philosophical reflection on the decline of Western political and media institutions, the loss of genuine principles, and the global rise of transactional, self-preserving elites.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Armenian identity:
  "We are the oldest eldest Christian nation in the world. That's why our church and our identity are so already it's the same thing." – Armenian Expert (05:08)

• On the prime minister's crackdown:
  "He wants to change the narratives of the church to forget the issue of genocide, forget our history...he wants to dethrone to change the structure of Armenian church that is like 1,700 years old." – Armenian Expert (13:26)

• On protest and arrest of Samuel Karapetian:
  "After 30 minutes of this interview, our prime minister posted in Facebook that this philanthropist must shut his mouth. After three hours he sent police special forces..." – Armenian Expert (17:28)

• On US-backed repression:
  "So that would mean that Israelis were killing Christians in this war with US Tax dollars." – Tucker Carlson (11:11)

• On Western governments' approach:
  "In the United States Christianity has been subsumed by the State Department. The US Government decides what Christians we support and what Christians we don't." – Bob Amsterdam (31:09)

• On the destruction of the Church in Ukraine:
  "I'm talking about torture. I'm talking about the theft of churches...this man had the courage to stand up in the rad in their parliament to denounce it. For that, Zelensky and Yermak pulled his security, knowing that his statements would be highly controversial and perhaps deadly." – Bob Amsterdam (38:05, 39:09)

• On Nigerian Christian persecution discourse:
  "And to the credit of the United States, at least in the Senate, they've spoken out. Foreign Relations Committee has spoken out. We need our administration, and we certainly need the EU to stop funding this grotesque government in Tanzania." – Bob Amsterdam (62:31)

• On media complicity:
  "The behavior of the press has been the most disappointing to me...But now that Saint Zelinsky is starting to show a few cracks in the visage, there's still nothing about this ongoing torture and use of secret police to destroy a church. Nothing." – Bob Amsterdam (47:36)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Armenian genocide as religious persecution: 00:00 – 05:52
• Nagorno Karabakh conflict and cleansing of Christians: 05:52 – 08:49
• Western inaction, Israel’s involvement: 08:49 – 12:19
• Armenian government crackdown on the church: 13:20 – 20:46
• Suppression of philanthropist Samuel Karapetian: 16:36 – 20:46
• Current unpopularity of PM’s anti-church agenda: 22:35 – 23:55
• Government forcing a secular, anti-traditional agenda: 23:55 – 24:38
• Western influence and coordination: 24:38 – 26:17
• Clergy support and resistance: 27:07 – 28:55
• Bob Amsterdam on the international silence: 30:59 – 32:27
• US religious policy and Ukraine: 32:27 – 44:54
• Franklin Graham and US Christian leaders: 44:23 – 45:34
• Media silence; propaganda and influence: 47:08 – 50:58
• African Christian persecution, Nigeria's case: 57:36 – 63:41
• US lack of support for American Christian advocates abroad: 63:54 – 66:06
• Selective outrage and US church responses: 66:06 – 69:42
• Persecution in Armenia, prayer breakfasts, and reputation laundering: 70:48 – 74:34
• Steep decline of Western political elites and institutions: 53:59 – 56:32, 76:42 – 78:49

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Conclusion

This episode weaves a narrative of increasing global state repression against Christianity, especially in post-Soviet nations like Armenia and Ukraine, all while Western governments and many prominent Christian organizations remain selectively silent or complicit, often prioritizing geopolitical interests. Through powerful personal stories and sharp analysis, Tucker Carlson, his Armenian guest, and Bob Amsterdam expose what they view as an escalating war on Christianity and a profound crisis of Western leadership and integrity.

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For more details and the full white paper mentioned in the episode: freecarapetian.com

Transcript

[Tucker Carlson]

Thanks so much for doing this. Armenia is famous extent it's famous. Armenians are famous for, well, being successful in business and quite cohesive as a community and very sincerely Christian observant. But probably they're most famous for being exterminated by the Ottoman Turks at the end of the First World War. The Armenian genocide. And I think most people don't fully appreciate the extent to which that was religious persecution. That was a religious genocide and they were murdered because they were Christians. Tell us how we know that.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Yeah, the. At the end of the rule of Ottoman Empire.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yes.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

The after Balkan wars, Ottoman Turks saw that some Balkan countries like Bulgari and part of Greece became independent and the Christian countries in Balkans became independent. After that they filled some, you know, big risk in Christian population of Ottoman Empire like Armenians. Pontus Greeks became independent and they started to persecute the Christian population of Ottoman Empire or to convert them to Islam. How it went on when the war started between Antanta and Ottoman Empire, Germany and Austria, Hungarian Hungary. The Ottoman army came to all villages of Armenians in Ottoman Empire and asked two questions. Just the villagers or the people who lived in towns. The first question was will you convert to Islam? Like 98% of the population Armenian population of Ottoman Empire denied.

[Tucker Carlson]

Said no.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Said no. And the second question is if you don't convert to Islam, you will go from here to Desert of Deir zor. It's like 800 kilometers, 600 kilometers from Armenian Highlands. And all the men were killed and all the women were taken with children to Desert of De Zor. And we have lost the 70% of the population of our nation because everyone, one and a half million people said no to converting to other religion. We want everyone to know about this story, not just about the dark side of the history. It has a bright message too that Christian in the 20th century were very, you know, they went in a way of Christ and they were sacrificed. And we hope they all this sacrificial will bring the Christians of our days to more faith to that what we have the biggest and most humanistic religion that we accept and we must live with it.

[Tucker Carlson]

So I didn't, I did not understand until we just had breakfast that the arm. The victims of the Armenian genocide, who've been talked about a lot. There's been a debate in the congress for many years whether we can call it a genocide, whether that's somehow trademarked, but it was a genocide. But I didn't understand that they were Christian martyrs. They died not because of their ethnicity but because of their religious Faith, There.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Were no any problem with ethnicity. There were Armenians like 2% of Armenians in Ottoman Empire were Muslim. And just these 2% are living till now in the north of Ottoman Empire without any trouble.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Interesting.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

The other 98%, the every Christian Armenian who were asked this question, who answered that he will not convert to Islam were killed.

[Tucker Carlson]

That's amazing. And so that, that kind of defines 20th century, 21st century Armenian culture. You know, we, we stood steadfast in our faith and were murdered for it. So Christianity is at the center of Armenian culture. Is that fair to say?

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

It's the first nation who has ever converted to Christian. In 301 was an Armenian kingdom.

[Tucker Carlson]

So in 301 before Constantine, before the.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Roman Empire, 11 years before Constantine, before Medellan Edict it was 312, I guess Armenia like 11 years before he Armenian king Tiridad III converted to Christian religion and convert all our population to Christian religion. And we are the oldest eldest Christian nation in the world. That's why our church and our identity are so already it's the same thing. You know, the 80% or 70% of our identity comes from Christian values and our church values of our church.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well that's fascinating. Um, and it's, I mean the state of California where I'm originally from, you know the Armenian community is very, extremely successful but very cohesive. Like they, they have a sense of themselves in a great way I think. And that's why obviously. So over the past 30 years Armenia has been involved in a number of conflicts, really a sort of long running sporadic war with Azerbaijan, which is an Islamic country.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

How many Armenians were killed in that war?

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Almost 20,000 people were killed for defending a Christian population of Nagorno Karabakh.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yep.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

And at the end of the war, the last war, the Christian population of Nagorno Karabakh exceed like we, they, everyone came to Armenia. And now after 2000 years of living in this region, there is no any Christian in region of Nagorno Karabakh.

[Tucker Carlson]

So there are none.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

There is no any.

[Tucker Carlson]

What I don't understand is why nobody said anything is that was going on and why Christian leaders in the west didn't say anything while that was going on. That I heard.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

I think it's a matter of real politics, you know, Real politics. We have a very, we have allies with like, we have a very close relationship with Greek nation, with Greece, we have close relationship with Cyprus. But even from there we felt that we had support. But not, you know, the support was just with words, not any actions. I Know that real politics and the help of Turkey to Azerbaijan make the many countries that were allies with us or were in a good relationship with us to avoid.

[Tucker Carlson]

They didn't want to get crossways with power powerful countries like Turkey. I understand that.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

And this is what we have. Like this is the problem we face all over our history because the Armenian nation is in the center of a region where like Turkey, Azerbaijan, Iran and the only religious, only Christian nation of this from these three countries and always we had this oppression from the empires like Ottoman Empire, there is Kajal empire and other empires. And the only thing made us to be unite and to save our culture was the church and education from the church. Yes, the schools. That church was built all over the country to educate us to be Christian and to be an Armenian Christian.

[Tucker Carlson]

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[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

The participation Israel was the support of Azerbaijan by weapon and it was a part of real politics. But you know the problem.

[Tucker Carlson]

What kind of weapons?

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Drones like aircraft. Aircraft and other. It's like not just defense and attack.

[Tucker Carlson]

But offensive weapons offensive Azerbaijan received from.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Israel and drones men of drones and many of the were operated by as we have read in media, by operators from these companies of Israeli companies.

[Tucker Carlson]

So. Wow. So you think they were Israeli drone operators?

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because as many media told like it was in many magazines and that.

[Tucker Carlson]

So that would mean that Israelis were killing Christians in this war with US Tax dollars. I mean, because the Israeli defense sector is supported billions and billions a year by the United States.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

You know, the issue is about the real politics. They were. They are getting gas from Azerbaijan.

[Tucker Carlson]

Gasoline.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Gasoline. They buy gasoline. I think the 70% of Israel gasoline is coming from Azerbaijan. And they have some type of economic ally. They are allies economically. The main issue is today real politics sometimes is like make a big problem for the nations. Who wants to defend themselves alone in the regions we are minority.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah, I mean, of course. And that's how the world works. I just suppose from an American perspective, it's like, why are my tax dollars being used to murder Christians around the world? Cleanse the Christians from Iraq. Cleanse the Christians from N. Karabakh. Murder Armenian Christians. Like why am I paying for this?

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

It is a problem.

[Tucker Carlson]

It is a problem problem for me.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Yeah.

[Tucker Carlson]

So now you have a lull in the fighting with Azerbaijan, but you have a prime minister of Armenia who seems to be intent on destroying traditional Christianity or the church. Tell me what this is.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Yeah. The after, like last two, three years after losing the war in Nagorno Karabakh and after making like all the people, Christians from Nagorno Karabakh have moved to Armenia. Our new prime minister decides to have a better relationship with Azerbaijan. Better relationship with everyone is always welcomed by Armenian society. We are okay with this. But what we feel, we feel that Turkey or Azerbaijan had a mission like made him to change the narratives of the church. And he wants to change the narratives of the church to forget the issue of genocide, forget our history. And our prime minister, six months ago he started attack Armenian church. And head of Armenian church, he wants to dethrone him and he wants to dethrone to change the structure of Armenian church that is like 1,700 years old. Because of taking control of the church. It's the main institution in our country. Like 90%, 95% of our population are the members of Armenian Apostolic Church. And when he started to attack against the church, our society was shocked because nobody have done it before him. Even, you know, just at Ottoman time. And many people in Armenian society, they were against them, against it. But they couldn't say anything.

[Tucker Carlson]

Why?

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Because they were afraid of some oppression from the. From government side. You know, Armenia is a democratic country. It's. I think it's one of the last democratic countries in this region in the last 30 years. We have elections, we have new leaders. It's not authoritarian country. But this prime minister evolves from democratic leader. Every year we see his changing to more authoritarian style of ruling because of decreasing of his reputation in Armenia. And now he attacked the church. He took to prison three archbishops.

[Tucker Carlson]

They put archbishops in prison.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Yeah. Archbishop for you to understand, it's not shock. We were why the one of archbishop were took to prison? Because four years ago in an interview he said that this prime minister must be changed. The second archbishop was in prison, was taken to prison because of like three years ago or five years ago he went into a protest against the. The prime minister. And it's. You know, and nobody like from influential part of Armenian society. Everyone were afraid of to talk about this. Yeah, the, you know, the city, everyone could talk who hadn't a business, who hadn't an influence. But influential part didn't want to do it. And the one man who started talk about this was my uncle, Samuel Karapitian. He is the one of the wealthiest Armenian in the world and biggest Armenian philanthropist of last 15 years. 15 years. He is the biggest philanthropist in Armenia. So very many hospitals, kindergartens, schools. And when he came to Armenia. He lives out of Armenia. He came to Armenia and at the 40 days of his father's grave, you know, and we have a tradition to go to church at liturgy. In 40 days of someone grave.

[Tucker Carlson]

Good for you. So when someone dies in Armenia dies, The family mourns for 40 days.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And goes to liturgy. And when he came to Armenia and he was in liturgy, after liturgy, after mass in the church, the journalist came to him and said, what do you think about the attacks from the side of government attacks against the church? And he said like it was 37 seconds. What can I think if a small group of people forgetting Armenian history, forgetting history of our church is attacking Armenian church and Armenian people. If the politician will not handle the situation, we will take part of handling it by ourselves our way. Good. It was 37 seconds. Do you know what's going on after it?

[Tucker Carlson]

What happened?

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Like after 30 minutes of this interview, our prime minister posted in Facebook that this philanthropist must shut his mouth. After three hours he sent police special forces to a residence of Samuel Karapitian, who is the most famous philanthropist of the country, you know. And everyone was shocked. We were shocked too. And these police forces came to his residence without a judge order. Armenia is a democratic country. We never saw something like this. And everything was going on was like cameras showed everything. So everyone knows that he said it. 37 seconds. Then the prime minister was in parliament. He posted something like this in Facebook. And policemen came to the residence of Samuel Karapitian. But what happened then? The demonstrators came to the resident of Samuel Carapitian to. To defend him. Thousands of people came to his house to defend him from police. And that day usually when police come like it's five minutes to take someone to jail, you know, to police station. It was 14 hour. Demonstrators didn't want to let him to go to police station. And they were like bring order of judge. We let the demonstrators told the policeman and then like he decided, he decided to go himself to police station to not cause a clash between policemen and demonstrators. And after that he was arrested and I was arrested too. And my father, his brother was arrested.

[Tucker Carlson]

What were you arrested for?

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

I don't know, just being his nephew, just being there, I don't know. And I remember we were in Police Station 8 hour and they were looking for an article to charge because there is no article in 37 seconds I remember investigator came to the room and say oh, I phoned one article and then the other said no, it doesn't work. And after seven hours they phoned an article and charged it that he said that the prime minister must be dethroned. But in this 37 second interview, you can watch it in YouTube, everyone can do it. There were no any word about non prime minister and no anything. And he is now in jail still they took him to jail five months. And the jail name, do you know what is the jail name?

[Tucker Carlson]

No.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

KGB basement. So there is that old Soviet time communist time prison where the communists like send the people who were not agree with communist ideas. And he's there in 12 square meters for defending the church and for this 37 second.

[Tucker Carlson]

He's still in jail.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

He's still in jail.

[Tucker Carlson]

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[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

It's very unpopular. Like 90% of the population is against that. And with population, our society doesn't understand why he. Why he's doing that.

[Tucker Carlson]

So his agenda, he's. So Armenia is a traditional country, traditional families predominately. I noticed that the prime minister's wife was interviewed and said something to the effect that women in traditional families are all unhappy.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's, you know, he wants to change the society, but with power, not with soft power, but the.

[Tucker Carlson]

The way he wants to change the society is very familiar to Americans. He is focusing on transgenderism is a good thing. LGBTQ agenda, whatever that is.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Anti traditional. So not to the traditional families. Like, you mustn't care about your son. He must decide, like, what to do. But if you want what to do.

[Tucker Carlson]

Whether to become a woman or have sex with men or whatever.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

No, he hadn't said something like this, but mostly he's against the traditional values. So everyone knows that. He has idea of changing our society, but we.

[Tucker Carlson]

To make it less Christian.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

To make it less Christian. Yeah. Yeah, I guess. Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

Who's supporting him in this? This has happened in every country in the west, almost every country in the. Every country in the west, with varying degrees of success. But who is. Who's behind that? Who's pushing this?

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Who is behind that in every country in the West?

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah, that's a good question.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Is the. Is the same people who is doing it in Armenia? They are doing it here too, I guess.

[Tucker Carlson]

Oh. And they've been extremely successful. I mean, they've destroyed, you know, our social fabric with this. But who are those people? Who is. Let's just stick with Armenia. Who's. Who's supporting this prime minister? The population doesn't support him. Who is.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

You know, I think the main issue when we thought why he's doing it against the Church. We think that he gets some information from Turkey and Azerbaijan that you must change the narrative of the church to forget the genocide and to have a new head of church for going to a peace deal between Armenia and Azerbaijan and Azerbaijan. And we feel that he wants to change the head of church to change. Then he will change the narrative of the church and to make our people to forget all our like ancestors have done for our Christian religion. Yes, for being an Armenian. And this is the thing that we must, you know, show our societies that this is the way they work. They want to destroy all the historical truth for some reasons. The reason is to be in peace, but we can't. We are very welcome to be in peace, but these people, one and half million people were killed already. They were killed for their religion. We must, Ottoman Empire must accept it. The Ottoman Turks or Turks must accept it because after that we will live in a more peaceful region.

[Tucker Carlson]

Anyone who's forcing you to lie about history is your enemy. And of course the purpose is always to maintain power. Right? Yeah, right. Whoever controls the story, the past controls the future. Of course. That's why Wikipedia exists, to lie to us about the past. So last question. This is, I mean by any definition a grotesque human rights violation. You're arresting Christian clergy because you don't like their theological views and you don't like their views of history, so you throw them in prison. How many Christian churches in the west have weighed in on this, have supported the clergy under arrest, have put pressure on the Armenian prime minister to stop arresting Christian clergy? Like, how much support are you getting from the West?

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

We are getting support from the west, from the churches.

[Tucker Carlson]

You are.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is a huge support and we are appreciated for this. And I want to tell you one more thing, like why these people are brave when they are going against the government's ideas. My uncle, Samuel Karabidian and the clergy, they could be realized like tomorrow if they say that they will not defend the church.

[Tucker Carlson]

It's always the same story, isn't it?

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

So my uncle, we had like, they want to confiscate his businesses in Armenia. He knows it, but he wants to defend the church after that too. So he's continuing to defend the church. And this is the idea. These are the persons with whom we must, I think we must learn something because it's like in first, it's like in 20th century when this Armenian, our ancestors were sacrificed in Ottoman Empire for their religion. I am proud that Samuel Karapityan is. He can be free, he can be with his business. But he doesn't do this for his religion because religion and faith matters. You know, it's important. Like the first Christian in first century, they were oppressed, but they fought for their religion. And this is the case Samuel Karabithyan faces now.

[Tucker Carlson]

It's, it's inspiring to watch. It's, it's upsetting to watch at the same time. So Godspeed. Thank you for telling us that story. Too few people know. And it's, it's not just about Armenia, of course. It's a, it's a global push.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Yeah.

[Tucker Carlson]

Against this one specific religion, against Jesus. So that's what they hate.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Thank you very much.

[Tucker Carlson]

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[Bob Amsterdam]

Look Tucker, as you and I have discussed, I do not understand the evangelical movement, the Christian movement in the United States. One thing I want to say, and I won't make many friends by saying it in the United States Christianity has been subsumed by the State Department. The US Government decides what Christians we support and what Christians we don't. So in Armenia, there is going to be a prayer breakfast, and I want you to understand. There's going to be a prayer breakfast while my client, Samuel Carapechin is in jail. Archbishops have been jailed, clerics have been jailed. The leader of the country is trying to split the church by going to services of a defrocked priest, a man who has said he is going to remove the leader of the church. This man is being fetted by American Christians in Yerevan, Armenia. A man who calls clerics prostitutes, a man who uses language that at my advanced age, I've never heard a leader use against leaders of the church. And yet, shockingly, this prayer breakfast is going to go on. And I call it a reputation laundering breakfast. The US Government allows this to go on.

[Tucker Carlson]

What connection is there between the U.S. state Department and the prayer breakfast?

[Bob Amsterdam]

Look, I can't exactly tell you. I'm not privy to the arrangements, but as I've seen in representing the Ukrainian church, the prayer breakfast and religious freedom all seem to follow a script outlined by the State Department. And, you know, there's a lot of pressure from the administration on peace in terms of Armenia and Azerbaijan, which, of course, all of us welcome. But it's happened at a tremendous cost to the people of Armenia. There's tremendous cultural and church relics that are being lost and defiled. There's 120,000 who have been cleansed from Azerbaijan and no thought has been given to this. We have 23 Christian hostages in Baku, and the prime minister of Armenia did not even speak of them when he was with President Trump. President Trump raised them. I mean, it is shocking how Armenia has a prime minister who seems to resent his own history as an Armenian. They've. They've taken Mount Ararat off stamps. They've. They don't talk about the genocide. They attack the church. The leader of the country wants to remove and appoint the Catholicos. Well, of course, he doesn't understand what an Apostolic Church is. To be an apostolic Church, listen to this Jew tell you about apostolic churches. You have to have a connection to the first apostles, which means your election must be sanctified by bishops, by leaders of the church, not a political figure. He. He is shockingly ignorant of his own religion.

[Tucker Carlson]

It sounds like it's not his religion. I mean, it sounds like he's not a believer.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Well, I, you know, I. I never will say that about someone.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, I agree.

[Bob Amsterdam]

I don't know him. But what I will tell you is our State Department has, has lost the meaning of faith. They have instrumentalized religion as a tool of foreign policy. Exactly what we accuse the Russians of doing, we have done it. Thank God our people don't bless tanks the way Bishop Kirill did in Russia. But this support of governments, and we're seeing it in this prayer breakfast, traveling to a country like Armenia with top leaders of the Christian religion in particular, and doing all of this while we have clerics and I have a client in jail. And I feel very personal about this because I was able to defend this client in an Armenian court. I want to thank the Armenian bar for allowing me to actually speak in defense of the client directly with an interpreter. I was able to deal with the court myself and I thought effectively portray the absolute farce that this trial was and that these charges were with respect to Samuel Carpetian, who is an absolutely, unbelievably principled Christian who is, is now sitting in his fifth month in jail innocent of everything other than praising God. And that's why he's in jail.

[Tucker Carlson]

I just, I know I've asked you this before, maybe not as pointedly as I will now, but how did this fall to. How did you, I think grew up pretty liberal or left wing Jewish guy, wind up being like the world's, one of the world's foremost defenders of persecuted Christians. Like, how did that happen?

[Bob Amsterdam]

Well, well, firstly, as a Jew, I am an inclusive person. I, I, if somebody has faith in God, almost any God, I respect that.

[Tucker Carlson]

I feel the same way.

[Bob Amsterdam]

And I was raised by a family that was deeply impacted by the Holocaust. I have traveled all my life. I have sought refuge during riots or whatnot, whether it be in churches or mosques. I, I just never feel proprietary and, and feel that all men of faith have a commonality to it. I've been involved with the Orthodox Church since I was a young man. We did a case against the Soviet Union, which a colleague of mine, Reg McClain, did the most, most of the work on. But Dean Peroff and I were young lawyers together and he was a member of the Macedono Bulgarian Orthodox Church. And I took on that case 45 years ago trying to fight a Soviet attempt at taking control of a church. And since that time, I've always had an interest in, in these issues. And when, as you know, I was approached by the Ukrainian church and now by Karapetian, in the Armenian church context, it just seems very natural as a Jew to defend children of Christ.

[Tucker Carlson]

So it's Just an amazing story. Thank you, by the way, for doing it. So what is the latest? You have been the defender of the church in Ukraine, the Orthodox Church in Ukraine, which is under almost unbelievable persecution by the government with the help of the United States. Where are we now?

[Bob Amsterdam]

You know, I want to be very clear, Tucker, when you say persecution, that doesn't. That doesn't sum it up. I'm talking about torture. I'm talking about the theft of churches. I'm talking about.

[Tucker Carlson]

This is not just. We're cutting off funding. No, no torture here.

[Bob Amsterdam]

I have pictures, I have videos. There's a trial going on in England where the Ukrainians are trying to ship back a former member of Parliament of Ukraine whose crime was to speak out for the church on the day they passed this horrendous bill to ban the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, a bill that I would say has no comparison in Europe since the Nuremberg Laws. Oh, when they passed this bill to ban this church, this man had the courage to stand up in the rad in their parliament to denounce it. For that, Zelensky and Yermak pulled his security, knowing that his statements would be highly controversial and perhaps deadly. He realized that there was basically a death warrant. He fled the country on foot through a forest, made it to the UK within 14 days of arrival in the UK they were trying to extradite him back to Ukraine because for some hooliganism charge. And, you know, fortunate for him, I knew him. I knew when I had met him in Ukraine, when I had been there, that he had evidence of torture. We're now taking that evidence of torture to the courts. Ukraine is a one party, one person autocratic state that has no comparison to any democratic values. Rather, today is a mirror of the old Soviet Union. The man in charge of religious affairs is an apparatchik who wrote an anti Jewish screed 20 years ago. He's the head of Religious Affairs. And by the way, sorry to laugh.

[Tucker Carlson]

This is so crazy, by the way.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Hold on. Let me go a step crazy. Frazier. He was a keynote speaker at the Religious Freedom Conference held in Washington.

[Tucker Carlson]

What?

[Bob Amsterdam]

Yes, his name is Yelensky. He was a keynote speaker. This is a man who spends his life trying to destroy the Orthodox Church and transfer it into what is essentially the ocu, a state church. He's a keynote speaker at a Religious Freedom Conference in Washington where there is a happy hour sponsored by the Ukrainian government, where there are men in Ukrainian army uniforms walking around.

[Tucker Carlson]

This happened in Washington D.C. yes, a number of times.

[Bob Amsterdam]

And this is all going on while I, on behalf of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. We can't get an interview in any press in the United States. Censorship exists in this country.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yes.

[Bob Amsterdam]

And when we got any coverage, it wasn't to cover the outrage in Ukraine, it was to taint me as some form of Russian agent, a guy who was arrested by Putin, whose friends were murdered by Putin. I am tainted as some Russian agent for speaking out against this criminalization of Christianity that's going on in Ukraine. And by the way, supported by pastors who are very close to the White House and I don't fault them.

[Tucker Carlson]

Wait, it's supported by American pastors?

[Bob Amsterdam]

Yes. No, they don't know. I mean, essentially the Ukrainians are masters of disinformation, absolute masters. They have their own sort of captive cells of religious leaders who are told essentially, look, we have, you know, black PR against you. If you don't follow what's going on and you don't support us, will take you down. I mean, the former president of Ukraine is under indictment for treason. Navinsky, who you've interviewed, under indictment for treason, they've done nothing treasonous. They just represent alternative areas of independent thinking. In Navinsky's case, a religious man who supported the church, but they have sanctioned him, they have tried to destroy him. And of course they are within a hair's breadth of taking down the church, a thousand year old church, destroying it, taking the priests out of it, removing all the churches, transferring it to the state church of the ocu, which essentially is a cutout of the presidential administration.

[Tucker Carlson]

This is, it's, it's hard to. So we first spoke about maybe two years ago. Yes, and I was shocked by what you said at the time, which is the government of Zelensky is trying to eliminate traditional Christianity, the traditional church of Ukraine. And I thought, boy, you know, when people find out about this, because whatever you think of Zelensky or Putin, certainly Putin, you can hate Putin and still be appalled by this. Of course I thought, wow, it's going to stop like that once people know. But it, it just kept accelerating and I still haven't heard a single. I'm sure there have been, but I haven't heard any American Christian leaders say anything about this.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Look, what is that? I, I will tell you that J.D. vance, when he was a senator and no one frankly knew him from Oshkosh, gave a statement in the Senate for which I thank him every day in my prayers that has kept. I think it's one of the key things, I think you, J.D. vance, and there are two young members of the Young Republicans. Catherine Whitford, who is a, a co chair of the National Young Republicans and is, is orthodox is actually leading a day of action and she has a colleague as well who, who is, who is leading this. Those young people have been along with, with our Vice President now the only sources of, of support we've had.

[Tucker Carlson]

What about Franklin Graham?

[Bob Amsterdam]

He is speaking in Yerevan.

[Tucker Carlson]

What does that mean?

[Bob Amsterdam]

He is the keynote at the Prayer Breakfast in Yerevan, Armenia with the Prime.

[Tucker Carlson]

Minister who's putting clergy in jail.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

How does that work?

[Bob Amsterdam]

I listen, I am, it may surprise you to know I am not working in evangelical circles. I have no idea.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm not either. But I'm very sympathetic to the idea, you know, to evangelical people, great people. And I'm not against Franklin Graham. I'm just shocked that Franklin Graham would.

[Bob Amsterdam]

I don't know, you know, having, having certainly being aware of him. I have no idea if he knows. I think because our government has decided, as has the EU frankly that they are going to go with the sob. They know. I think the silence of the government is something that everybody takes as permission. And I'm sure Franklin Graham is not aware that Franklin, I mean you would.

[Tucker Carlson]

Think, and I don't mean focus on Franklin Graham I'm sure is a nice person or I don't really don't know what he's like, but I'm not against him. But has he said anything about what Zelensky is doing to the church in Ukraine that you're aware of?

[Bob Amsterdam]

No, no, no. I, I, I honestly am in shock at the silence of the media in the United States and the silence of, of the Christian community to what's happened. I mean thanks to Candy Stroud, who you and I both know, great person. I'm, I'm, I've been on radio everywhere I can. But you know, the Ukrainian effort in Washington and with media is masterful. They have their own people and key media who continued to write puffy articles about them. Never a criticism. The first time it ever came up that I saw was the protests over corruption a few weeks ago, which led people here to scratch their head and say, well Christ, if Zelensky is so clean, how could he be trying to wipe out the anti corruption independence? And that was an eye opener to some. But in the UK we wrote to the government to say why aren't you doing something about the church? And they wrote back and said everything's great, everything's great, everything's great. I mean the UK government is more hardline about Ukraine than Ukraine. The reaction of Europeans understand Germany is imploding because of this war.

[Tucker Carlson]

I know it was obvious that it would four years ago. It was obvious the second it started saying, this is going to destroy Germany, which is really the economy of Europe.

[Bob Amsterdam]

And let's say something else. It's going to radicalize Germany.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, that is, that is deep, and that is scary. That is, it's coming, of course.

[Bob Amsterdam]

And, and, and as a Jew, that is a very scary thing to witness.

[Tucker Carlson]

But it's, it's inevitable. It's going to radicalize all of Europe. I mean, how could it not? Like.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Yeah, and, and, and, and I will say to you that the, the behavior of the press has been the most disappointing to me because I've worked with the press. When I was fighting Putin in the early 2000s on behalf of one of his key opponents, I had the press with me, and we would do interviews. It would, it was constant. But now that Saint Zelinsky is starting to show a few cracks in the visage, there's still nothing about this ongoing torture and use of secret police to destroy a church. Nothing.

[Tucker Carlson]

What is that exactly? Like, why most Americans, including certainly most reporters, most people in the media, had never heard of Zelensky until this war started. They know they couldn't identify him. And immediately after it started, the loyalty to him blinded them to his faults, induced them to lie to the public in America about what was happening. I mean, they just became shills for Zelenskyy in, like, one day.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Why?

[Tucker Carlson]

What is that?

[Bob Amsterdam]

What's interesting, because we did a study, we looked at media in the United States because one of the things that's frightening about the churches that are being taken in Ukraine is that very often the people who take them and beat up parishioners and break the heads of priests, those people have swastikas on their arms.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

Yeah, I noticed.

[Bob Amsterdam]

So we found out that the New York Times and other papers had been profiling the rise of the right in Ukraine right up until the war. Now, the Azov Battalion, which is basically a neo Nazi battalion, has almost taken over command and control in the Ukraine. And, you know, this is an ultranationalist government right now that is pushing a very radical line, but no one is covering it.

[Tucker Carlson]

But do you have any guesses as to. And I should say you've been in and out of that region for over 50 years, you know. Well, you know, a lot. I mean, I just, for, I could go on about your background, but I would just ask viewers to look you up or to Take my word for it. You know what you're talking about and what you're saying is true. But why would the media, again, do that? Why are they defending actual Nazis? Like what? That's how deep their commitment is to Zelensky. So what is that? What does that commitment? Where does it come from?

[Bob Amsterdam]

Well, you know, it's funny because Zelensky made all his money in Russia.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah, I know.

[Bob Amsterdam]

And yet he's in charge of a government that's debasing any guarantees of language rights for Russian speakers inside Ukraine. And the sanctification of him relates, in my mind to two things. One, we have a total breakdown in elite politics in, in Europe and to some extent, in the United States.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yes.

[Bob Amsterdam]

And secondly, I, you know, I stopped playing the market when I was 21, but I certainly remember, you know, making a bet and watching it crash and then think I've got to double down to. To lower my cost in.

[Tucker Carlson]

Exactly.

[Bob Amsterdam]

And I think that's what's kind of happened here.

[Tucker Carlson]

The first one, I mean, the second one, I think you're exactly right. Like, I was all in from the beginning. I can't get out now.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

Double down. And I sort of understand what you mean about the degradation of elite politics, but can you put a finer point on that?

[Bob Amsterdam]

Well, you know, look at the uk. I mean, I love the uk.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yes.

[Bob Amsterdam]

We have a government that is wildly incompetent. They even know they're incompetent. We're going to have a budget that's going to destroy what's left of the middle class. Look at France, complete chaos right now. Complete loss of direction. Italy, struggling, struggling. But with Meloni, there's. There's some sort of strength there. But many of the other countries, of course, Spain. Spain is. Now, you may not be aware, I'm fighting Spain in a big way against their tax administration. We just outed in a press conference last week the fact that Spain is using Huawei computers to store tax information for Americans.

[Tucker Carlson]

Not really.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Yes. And not only are they doing that, but they have this discriminatory policy towards Americans. They have 50,000Americans, they have hundreds of thousands foreigners. They're doing discriminatory tax audits and basically stealing the money from foreigners to try to subsidize a. A government that is the most corrupt government I've seen since Papa Dovalier. I think something like 21 indictments. The prime Minister's wife, his brother, the. The General prosecutor. I mean, what's going on in Spain is. Is unexplored territory in the United States and people don't seem to have any interest in 00.

[Tucker Carlson]

This is a vacation spot.

[Bob Amsterdam]

And the, the king is flying to China because Sanchez is all in with China, of course, and Venezuela. So it's astounding. And the rule of law is under such attack there that the EU is quietly sending a commission to investigate in January because everybody in Europe knows rule of law is dead in Spain. So it's frightening what's going on there. And, and this is what I mean about the sort of calcification of the ruling elite.

[Tucker Carlson]

But what is that? Is that just a nat. Now I'm asking you, I'm luring you into philosophy, but I'm very interested and I agree with everything you said. It's observable, it's provable. But where does it come from? Is it a natural cycle or is it something else?

[Bob Amsterdam]

You know, the cost of being a politician are so high, the reputational costs are so high. And the materialistic nature of, of all of us now, the loss of ideology, the loss of principles, the loss of faith, this leads to a, a loss in terms of the quality of people entering politics.

[Tucker Carlson]

That's right.

[Bob Amsterdam]

And, and you have a chaotic world situation which, you know, there's a lot of fear and it, it leads to a completely transactional foreign policy. And more and more states are engaging in this transactional policies as opposed to following any form of ideological policy.

[Tucker Carlson]

So it, it sounds like a part of a cycle. Then, just as politics becomes less productive, therefore more reviled by the population. These are supposedly democratic countries, or not really, but they still have the skin suit and people are mad at the political class. So that means that only the worst people join the political class.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Right. And yet fascinating what I'm seeing in, in watching the Orthodox community, the, the Christian Orthodox community and the Jewish community. The Jewish community as a result of this horrible growth of anti Semitism, the Orthodox community, as a result of the woke nature of many Christian churches, is that those who are fundamental in their faith are growing. Orthodox Christianity is growing at a massive rate. Oh yeah, massive.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm sure Orthodox Judaism is too.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Yeah. Because people are clinging to real values.

[Tucker Carlson]

That's right.

[Bob Amsterdam]

And, and in Europe, you know, quite frankly, it's very, very hard to find inspiration in the United States. We have a president, by the way, I think probably the most effective president in foreign affairs that we may have had since Nixon. I think he's incredibly consequential in foreign affairs, on domestic policy, on legal issues. I think the rule of law is in trouble. But I won't go into that.

[Tucker Carlson]

I've noticed. No, I agree.

[Bob Amsterdam]

But foreign policy wise, he's. He's moved incredible mountains. And I'm not, I'm not just talking about the, the recent activities with the hostages. I'm talking about as. As a lawyer engaged in Africa, the man has done more to open up our eyes to the opportunities in parts of Africa. He's made it much less risky to go into Africa. As an American in Africa over the last decades, you don't know how frustrating it is when the Department of Justice opens up investigations the minute American companies want to venture into Africa or into Latin America. And now that's not happening. And now American companies are going into some of the Wild west countries in Africa and Latin America. And I say more power to them. Why. Why would we just hand this to China?

[Tucker Carlson]

So Congo most obviously, but others.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

Speaking of African countries, all of a sudden, I'm not defending Nigeria. I don't have strong views in Nigeria, but Nigeria has become famous in the last week as a country in which there's Christian persecution going on. I, I think that's been. There's been a lot of conflict between Muslims and Christians in Nigeria for, you know, my whole life. But all of a sudden, it's a kind of centerpiece of the conversation. How did, what, what is the true. You've been in and out of Nigeria for how long?

[Bob Amsterdam]

50 years.

[Tucker Carlson]

50 years. 1975. Is that correct? Yes. It's a long time. So you know Nigeria pretty well.

[Bob Amsterdam]

I do.

[Tucker Carlson]

What is the truth about what's going on? And I ask because you've got credibility, you know the country, and you're spending the rest of your life defending Christians around the world. Tell me what the actual truth of Christian persecution in Nigeria is.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Let's be very clear that the Nigerian government is populated by Christians and Muslims. I have represented in his earlier life the national security advisor of Nigeria when he was a young man. And he's, he's a lovely individual and, and caring and, and, and universally respected in terms of religious issues. Devout Muslim, but universally respected in my adopted family in Lagos. The Odessanya family sort of adopted me when I was a very, very young man and, and living there. I sort of have a half brother there. Dao De. That family is a totally integrated family. Muslim, Christian. I was always teased that I was a Juruba, which is a. A Jewish Yoruba, but I mean, there have always been tribal conflict. I spoke to the foreign minister before I came here because I wanted to get clarity on the government's position. Absolutely. Let's be clear. President Tubo's wife is a Christian pastor. This is not targeted at Christians. There are probably an equal or more number of Muslim deaths. I am grateful to President Trump for identifying these attacks on Christians. Believe it or not, you can blame some of this on the French who had this.

[Tucker Carlson]

I do. I know nothing about it, but I believe you. Anyway.

[Bob Amsterdam]

They had a massive force in the Sahel. They armed the Torics, which are a notorious, notoriously aggressive tribal group that has. That arming has led to mass killings of Christians. The fact that when Libya blew apart, a massive amount of arms went down to Boko Haram can't be denied by anyone. Nigeria wants to consult with the United States. Nigeria wants assistance in protecting Christians and Muslims, protecting their populations. Nigeria feels it has not had a fair shake from Washington. And I'm not, You know, I don't work for Nigeria. I'm not going to go on and on. The foreign minister is a close friend who I respect deeply. But I can tell you from my work, I was privileged to represent one of the Nigerian states years ago at Kwaibom.

[Tucker Carlson]

We.

[Bob Amsterdam]

We won a case, actually, for them. The. The Nigerians would welcome American assistance with open arms. So this is. This is unlike Ukraine, which is destroying its church, or Armenia, which is destroying its church, here you have a government that wants to protect its populace, doesn't have the resources. Nobody's going to deny Nigeria's been racked by corruption all the years I've known it. But they want a new deal, a new relationship with Washington, and in part to assist them in protecting Christians. So when I read some of what I've been reading, I'm never gonna say that Ted Cruz isn't a brilliant man, but I'm going to say I might have a little more time in Nigeria than he does. And I would welcome him to speak to the foreign minister or others. Because one thing America doesn't need are more enemies. Africa is the future. I have said it time and time again. I'm privileged to be counsel to the Democratic Republic of the Congo. We. You know, my firm has spent many years. We've just. We're still trying to defend the opposition leader of Tanzania, who. Tundu Lisu, who's been illegally jailed. A thousand are dead, protesting completely bogus, fraudulent elections. And to the credit of the United States, at least in the Senate, they've spoken out. Foreign Relations Committee has spoken out. We need our administration, and we certainly need the EU to stop funding this grotesque government in Tanzania. But we have to stop looking at Africa as a security concern alone. And we have to recognize that between their minerals and between the entrepreneurial spirit, Nigerian lawyers are as good or better than American lawyers or British lawyers. I mean, there is an incredible infrastructure of intelligence in Nigeria that we don't know anything about. All we try to do is sanction and condemn. It is a horrible, horrible part of our policy that we sanction the hell out of everybody. We, we are responsible for the consolidation of power in Moscow under Putin. If we were not sanctioning the hell out of all these people who had moved to Europe, who knows whether Putin would still be in power.

[Tucker Carlson]

Exactly. No, it's. That's the truth. I know it's. It's so counterproductive that it's got to be part of some sort of larger strategy that I'm too dumb to understand because it's, it's achieving the opposite of the attendant result.

[Bob Amsterdam]

And let me tell you, I'm. I'm working in Iran, in Iraq against Iranian interests. We have a woman, Sarah Saleem, who is an American citizen bravely, incredibly bravely defending her interests and those of the Kurdish in the north. And, you know, the Kurds are going to have an election soon. She's defending their interests against a wildly corrupt chief justice named Zidane, who is actually an instrument of Iran. And there have been a complete reversal of her fortunes before the courts because of corruption against a group called the Hanna Brothers. And when we've gone to the US Embassy for help, this is an American citizen who, by the way, was kidnapped and tortured 10 years ago and has been fighting for her redemption and for compensation against Al Maliki and Zidane and others. Our embassy pledges neutrality. Does not help this brave American citizen.

[Tucker Carlson]

How can they not help an American?

[Bob Amsterdam]

Listen, we cannot understand it, especially in a moment where the future of Iraq, which is massively important to the United States, is at risk. I mean, there's an election coming up in Iraq as well, and the oil wealth of that country is almost unimaginable. And the issue is whether the Iraqi militia will disarm, whether in fact, the government that we, we not only have spent billions to support, but we lost almost 5,000 lives. Whether that government will be a government somewhat free of the corruption and control of Iran. Yeah, and, and, and our government's been impotent. There's, there's a few people in Congress who have spoken out and blessed them for doing that, but very few people have paid Iraq any thought at all. And yet we over concentrate on Ukraine to the exclusion of almost everything else.

[Tucker Carlson]

So Ted Cruz is upset about what's happening in Nigeria to Christians. I'm not against him being upset about that. You say it's much more complicated than he's presenting. Probably more tribal than religious. I, you know, I don't know much about it, but how much has Ted Cruz said about the. The U. S. Funded destruction of the Ukrainian orthodox church?

[Bob Amsterdam]

Nothing. Nothing at all? Nothing? Nothing.

[Tucker Carlson]

I mean, how can that be?

[Bob Amsterdam]

Listen, Tucker, nobody. I mean, I. The Washington post did a hit piece on me. A woman I knew quite well did a terrible hit piece, tried to present me as a Russian agent. That was their focus. There was no issue about what's happening to the church. None at all. And the funny thing, by the way, is we are not trying to change American policy. Where you and I disagree is I've always been totally supportive of Ukraine from a military standpoint because my clients are in the front line. Members of the Ukrainian orthodox church are fighting and dying for Ukraine. And, you know, I don't know if you remember last time I met you, I showed you a video that we had done of some young men in the army speaking out for the church. Well, one of those young men has just died fighting Russia. And his comment in that video was to the president, how do you. How do you want me to fight when my own church. I can't defend my own church in my town?

[Tucker Carlson]

Sad.

[Bob Amsterdam]

And. And Arseni here is a bishop. One of my lawyers went to the jail in the war zone to meet bishop Arseni. He has been in jail 17 months. He has no stomach. He is horribly ill. Horribly ill. He is a monk. He is a bishop. He has spent his years devoted to a cathedral. What happens is, we think after 17 months they're going to release this poor man in his 60s, possibly to die. They get him out for a moment and the secret police arrest him again on the trumped up charge that he resisted the Russian invasion. He didn't resist the Russian invasion. Some completely bogus charge, and he is incarcerated again. It's a level of cruelty and torture I cannot express to you.

[Tucker Carlson]

And Cruz has said nothing about it? No. Really? No one said anything about it, but Cruz specifically. But he's all of a sudden kind of out of nowhere, deeply concerned about the plight of Christians in Nigeria, which I want to restate. Maybe a totally valid concern. I don't know. But that's weird. What is? That all of a sudden everybody's concerned about people who clearly have no track record of being interested in Christians at All, including Ted Cruz. What, what is going on? Where, where is this coming from?

[Bob Amsterdam]

Well, in fact, what's interesting is they're calling it a genocide. And a genocide under international legal terms requires an intent. And certainly it's a very strange scenario where you have a government richly populated by Christians and accusing them of some form of genocide.

[Tucker Carlson]

The president, whose wife is a Christian pastor. So, but I mean, one thing I do understand is coordinated propaganda. And this is coordinated propaganda. What I mean is it.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Look, you know, I, I can tell you that the Nigerians have no idea where this is coming from. They've wanted Washington's attention since the beginning of the Trump administration. There are 230 million Nigerians who long for a strong relationship with the United States, who are being cultivated by Russia, cultivated by China, cultivated by, but want to work with America. And we ignore them until we condemn them for a genocide that is absolutely not a genocide. Yes, I support President Trump's interest in helping out Christians everywhere, but let's be fair to a government who is working to try to protect Christians and doesn't have the resources.

[Tucker Carlson]

Right. This is clearly, I'll just say it out loud. It's an effort to draw the attention of faithful Christians in the United States away from long standing persecution that we have studiously ignored in Ukraine and other parts of the world. That is, I mean, it's obvious to me what's going on. Does that sound crazy?

[Bob Amsterdam]

No, no, because I don't have another, another way to explain it. And one other thing I want to mention on your show is that, that we have this new white paper on Armenia called Pashinian and the Persecution of Samuel Carapetian. And it's, it's available online and it'[e-mail] and please download it and you will see a, you know, it's 60 or so pages, but it provides the entire history of the persecution. But, you know, as, as you discovered the Armenian genocide, from there till now, Armenia has been a brave Christian country in a terrible, terrible neighborhood. And you know, I, having been in their court, having been in the jail, having met with Karapetian, I am at a complete loss about the fact that I know they think that they're going to have this prayer breakfast. I believe one of the Trump children is going to Armenia. I'm sure Donald Trump Jr. Again has no idea of what's actually going on there. It's, it's a terrible situation where, because you can't get into the media to tell them the truth, so many senior people in The United States operate on ignorance and. And reputation launder.

[Tucker Carlson]

Exactly.

[Bob Amsterdam]

People like Pashinian.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, I. I've been an unwitting participant in that phenomenon myself. So I know, like, you don't really know what's going on. You get used. I've been used. I deeply regret it. I'm not going to happen to me again if I can help it. But I'm sympathetic in general to that because, again, I've experienced it. But the Ukraine thing is, anyone who wants to know about what's happening to the church in Ukraine can find out. Like, that's not a secret. Now, are there prayer breakfasts for in. For Ukraine?

[Bob Amsterdam]

Yes, actually. Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

Does anyone ever bring this up?

[Bob Amsterdam]

They're not. Our church is not invited to the prayer breakfast. Yes. We're not invited.

[Tucker Carlson]

The biggest church in Ukraine's not invited to the prayer breakfast for Ukraine?

[Bob Amsterdam]

In Ukraine? No, no, they're not invited. As you're aware, when I fought to get into the Religious Freedom Conference last time, we had to fight to get a table to put information on. Then when I wanted to speak, they loaded a panel with five or six other people and I got about two minutes to speak while the man who is in charge of the destruction of the church was a keynote before a large audience.

[Tucker Carlson]

Who organized this?

[Bob Amsterdam]

This is the International Religious Freedom Caucus, I think. And, and I got a call from Sam Brownback to say, if you do speak, could you be civil? And I said, well, you don't know me, Mr. Brownback, but I don't have any record of incivility. You know, that's not in my nature. I just want an opportunity to speak out for the people of this church.

[Tucker Carlson]

Sam Brownback, former senator from Kansas yes, he was running this.

[Bob Amsterdam]

I think he was involved. I have no idea.

[Tucker Carlson]

But I mean, did he speak out against the destruction of the largest church in Ukraine at a religious freedom event?

[Bob Amsterdam]

Nobody did. And let me go further.

[Tucker Carlson]

That is so bonkers to me. Like, I can hardly even believe what you're saying.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Well, wait a second. What's worse is they brought army folks. People were in Ukrainian army uniforms walking with OCU priests, that state church priests through the halls of this Religious Freedom Breakfast or, I'm sorry, religious freedom convention or conference. And they had a happy hour, a happy hour sponsored by Ukraine that is like absolutely crazy.

[Tucker Carlson]

Are they gonna do this for. Do this for China too?

[Bob Amsterdam]

A Uyghur happy hour.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah, exactly. Celebrating religious freedom in China. It's all. Okay, so last question, which I do think kind of sums it up, even in. And out of Ukraine a lot. You've got of course, a huge Ukrainian client. Can you go to Ukraine?

[Bob Amsterdam]

No.

[Tucker Carlson]

Why?

[Bob Amsterdam]

I'm under criminal investigation in Ukraine.

[Tucker Carlson]

For what?

[Bob Amsterdam]

I don't know. I just know it. They've announced that I'm under investigation, but again, it's no idea. It's like with Carapetian, you know, they, they try to find something to get you on and they invent stuff, as you know. So it's, it's really, I'm, I'm very tempted to go and I may go again, but I have no idea if I go, if I'll get out. And to some extent it's a bit like that with, with Armenia, because in Armenia they've just arrested not only bishops, but now they've arrested three mayors who spoke out and who weren't helpful, as well as the family of the patriarch, the catholicos, the brother and some other relative on again, completely trumped up charges.

[Tucker Carlson]

It feels like we're moving very quickly to just kind of global repression. It seems like liberal democracy has been so discredited, no one's defending it and it's dying before our eyes. That, that's kind of the overview from everything you've said.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Look, the EU has lost its way. There's no question. I think the EU is a tremendous danger if it doesn't get its act together on fundamental values. You know, there's this dialectic going on. Everybody is afraid of Russia. Completely afraid. Paralyzed.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah.

[Bob Amsterdam]

I mean, a Russian drone crosses the border and we're a DEFCON one. Yet after, I don't know, four plus years, Kiev isn't taken. None. You know, I think there's been a 1% change in territory. So how can Europe be so completely in fear of Russia and yet at the same time instrumentalize that fear to destroy their economies, to maintain sanctions, to engage in wildly self destructive behavior and fail to maintain democratic values. You saw them throw out a candidate in Romania. You saw what they're trying to do in Germany. You see what's happened in France. It is a continuous obliteration of rule of law. And we have got to start getting back to first principles with respect to rule of law everywhere or we will lose it completely everywhere.

[Tucker Carlson]

Bob Amsterdam. I swear I check the news regularly waiting for an account of your arrest. I hope it never comes. But you are taking actual physical risks on behalf of people who don't have power. So I'm grateful to you for that.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Well, thank you for having me.

[Tucker Carlson]

Stay free.

[Bob Amsterdam]

Thank you.

[Tucker Carlson]

We've got a new website. We Hope you will visit. It's called new commission now.com and it refers to a new 911 commission. So we spent months putting together together our 911 documentary series. And if there's one thing we learned, it's that in fact there was foreknowledge of the attacks. People knew.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

The American public deserves to know.

[Tucker Carlson]

We're shocked actually to learn that, to have that confirmed. But it's true. The evidence is overwhelming. The CIA, for example, knew the hijackers were here in the United States. They knew they were planning an act of terror.

[Bob Amsterdam]

In his passport is a visa to.

[Tucker Carlson]

Go United States of America. A foreign national was caught celebrating as the World Trade center fell and later said he was in New York, quote, to document the event. How do you know there would be an event to document in the first place? Because he had foreknowledge. And maybe most amazingly, somebody, an unknown investor shorted American Airlines and United Airlines, the companies whose planes the attackers used on 911 as well as the banks that were inside the Twin Towers just before the attacks. They made money on the 911 attacks because they knew they were coming. Who did that? You have to look at the evidence. The US government learned the name of that investor but never released it. Maybe there's an instant explanation for all this, but there isn't actually. And by the way, it doesn't matter whether there is or not. The public deserves to know what the hell that was, was, how did people know ahead of time? And why was no one ever punished for it? 911 Commission, the original one was a fraud. It was fake. Its conclusions were written before the investigation. That's true and it's outrageous. This country needs a new 911 commission. One that actually tells the truth, that tries to get to the bottom of the story. We can't just move on like nothing happened.

[Armenian Expert / Advocate]

911 Commission.

[Tucker Carlson]

Something did happen. We need to force a new investigation into 9 11. Almost 25 years later. Sorry, justice demands it. And if you want that, go to NewcommissionNow.com to add your name to our petition. We're not getting paid for this. We're doing this because we really mean it. Newcommissionnow.com.