The Secret History of Biblical Giants, Demons, and the Advanced Civilizations Before the Great Flood

Summary

The Tucker Carlson Show

Episode Title: The Secret History of Biblical Giants, Demons, and the Advanced Civilizations Before the Great Flood
Date: May 29, 2026
Guest: Orthodox Priest (unnamed)

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Overview

This captivating episode explores the “secret history” of Biblical giants (Nephilim), demons, and the existence of technologically advanced civilizations before the Great Flood, as recounted in ancient texts and traditions. The interviewer (Tucker Carlson or surrogate) questions an Orthodox priest, drawing out the connections between ancient myth, religious doctrine, spiritual reality, and the pattern of recurring human and demonic behaviors across civilizations. Their dialogue delves into the nature of ancient technology, demonic possession, spiritual causality in human society, and the contemporary implications of these ancient patterns.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Meaning and Origin of the Nephilim

[00:19–03:17]

• Nephilim is a debated term, often translated as “giants.”
• Its Hebrew root, nephal, means “to fall,” but the plural im and Aramaic cognate suggest “giant” or “strongman.”
• The ancient context isn’t just “fee fi fo fum” giants, but tyrants, bullies, and authoritarian rulers.
• Quote:
  “Referring to them as tall or referring to them as giants is meant to symbolize and suggest that... it’s characterizing these people as that sort of thuggish, brutish kind of character.” — Orthodox Priest (02:49)

2. Pre-Flood Civilization: Lost Knowledge & Technology

[03:19–09:41]

• Every ancient Near Eastern culture had a flood myth; Genesis offers a unique take running counter to the pagan “golden age.”
• Pre-flood civilization was seen as advanced, with technology (including magic) and global trade (e.g., Bronze Age trade routes from Cyprus, Afghanistan, Crete to Babylon).
• The Old Testament’s Amorites are the Babylonians’ Amuru.
• The knowledge and power of Babylonian and other empires was attributed to secret wisdom from before the flood, often through spiritual contact rather than preserved texts.

3. Dating the Flood & Archaeological Evidence

[06:31–09:19]

• Dating is uncertain; Hebrew and Greek genealogies use encoded numbers, not literal history.
• Some scholars link the flood to the end of the last Ice Age, around 10,000 years ago, citing submerged ruins in the Black Sea as evidence of vanished civilizations.
• The existence of advanced pre-literate structures like Göbekli Tepe supports the idea of lost knowledge but not a “Graham Hancock”-level Atlantis.

4. Spirit, Mind, and the Source of Knowledge

[12:08–19:12]

• Advances (metallurgy, magic, cosmology) were believed to be revealed from the spirit realm.

• The ancient mind (nous) was perceived not as logic/computation, but as a sensory (“eye of the heart”) receiving ideas from outside—spiritual, not self-generated.

• Quote:
  “The mind sort of perceives the spiritual realm... ideas are like sights or sounds or smells. They're not produced by the brain—they're received by the mind.” — Orthodox Priest (18:43)

• Demonic spirits gave forbidden knowledge before humanity was spiritually ready, paralleling the “serpent in the garden” incident.

5. Theological Recasting: Good vs. Evil in Ancient "Golden Ages"

[13:04–21:54]

• Genesis subverts pagan nostalgia by casting pre-flood civilization as wicked, led by demon-possessed kings.
• Ancient records (Sumerian King List) encode spiritual truths using exaggerated genealogies, lifespans, and mathematical symbolism (base-60, e.g., Enoch’s 365 years ↔ solar calendar).
• Lifespans point not to literal ages, but coded significance and spiritual status.

6. The Nephilim, Hybridization, and Ritual Magic

[25:11–39:03]

• The “sons of God” (angelic/demonic beings) mating with “daughters of men” produced the Nephilim: hybrid, not fully human, often rulers/heroes of legend.

• Ancient rituals reenacted this hybridization. Shrine prostitutes served as vessels for possession; kings were believed to be born as part divine through ritual sex.

• Quote:
  "Og came out of this sort of sexual ritual... shrine prostitutes... would be seen to be possessed by the spiritual entity... new king is the hybrid result.” — Orthodox Priest (38:07)

• This pattern is seen globally: Ugarit, Babylon, Cambodia (Khmer Empire), and until recently, Japanese imperial coronation rites.

7. The Universal Pattern: Demonic Ritual and Human Sacrifice

[39:03–70:39]

• Shrine/temple prostitution, ritual sex, blood, sacrifice, and cannibalism recur across time (Canaanites, Maya, African and Haitian Vodou, etc.)

• These rituals are not purely symbolic but believed to yield real spiritual power, and human sacrifice is repeatedly the price for “peace and prosperity.”

• Quote:
  “It’s obvious... clearly human sacrifice does bring dark power to the people who commit it.” — Interviewer (67:53)

• Christianity offered an alternate path, but as Christianity recedes, such practices return in covert or explicit forms.

8. Demonic Possession, Sin, and Metaphysical Transformation

[25:11–56:14]

• Sin is a process: thought → entertained thought → plan → action → habit → demonic possession → losing one's humanity ("fully demonized").
• The dead Nephilim’s spirits are described as demons, continuing their corrupting work after death.
• Quote:
  “It is people who live like demons who become demons.” — St. John Chrysostom, cited by Orthodox Priest (51:05)

9. The Modern World: Secular Idols, Pervasive Evil, and the Role of Christianity

[73:16–91:45]

• Modern society maintains covert religion—idols are now the “economy,” the state, political ideologies, or “progress.”
• The interviewer and priest lament institutional Christianity’s increasing worldliness, mimicry of secular structures, and forgetting of genuine spiritual practice.
• Magic vs. real prayer: Magic is compelling the spirit to do your will; Christian prayer is being transformed by God.
• Quote:
  “If you do XYZ... then God will. That’s essentially magic. The whole idea of Christian prayer... is that God is transforming me, not that I'm changing God.” — Orthodox Priest (91:57)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Content | |-----------|---------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:49 | Orthodox Priest | “Referring to them as tall or referring to them as giants is...thuggish, brutish...” | | 18:43 | Orthodox Priest | “The mind sort of perceives the spiritual realm...not produced by the brain, but received” | | 38:07 | Orthodox Priest | “Og came out of this sort of sexual ritual...shrine prostitutes...vessel for the spirit.” | | 67:53 | Interviewer | “Clearly human sacrifice does bring dark power to the people who commit it.” | | 51:05 | Orthodox Priest | “It is people who live like demons who become demons.” — St. John Chrysostom | | 91:57 | Orthodox Priest | “If you do xyz...then God will. That’s essentially magic...God is transforming me...” |

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• [00:19–03:17] – Exploring the meaning of “Nephilim” and their symbolic role.
• [03:17–06:31] – Pre-flood mythologies, ancient wisdom, and lost civilizations.
• [09:41–12:08] – Ancient technology, knowledge transmission, spiritual sources.
• [13:04–21:54] – The recasting of the “Golden Age” as a period of evil.
• [25:11–31:12] – The hybrid nature of the Nephilim, angelic beings, and genealogy.
• [34:42–39:03] – Discovery of Ugarit & ritual magic in kingly successions.
• [41:07–43:49] – Parallel rituals in Japan, Cambodia, and beyond.
• [49:47–52:20] – The experience of the demonic in the modern world.
• [58:15–61:38] – Cannibalism, ritual, and membership in ancient cultures.
• [73:16–78:22] – Confronting evil in modernity as an opportunity for spiritual awakening.
• [91:42–92:24] – The spiritual difference between magic and Christian prayer.
• [98:23–103:32] – Patterns in modern confession: pornography, isolation, and spiritual wounds.

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Central Takeaways

• The reality of evil, demonic powers, and hybrid beings (Nephilim) are central, not fringe, claims of the Biblical worldview and many ancient societies.
• Ancient and modern societies alike use ritual and spiritual beliefs to channel power, whether openly (through gods/demons) or covertly (through the “idols” of progress, economy, or politics).
• Human beings always participate in spiritual realities—one cannot choose not to serve a spiritual master; the choice is which one.
• The ancient concept of the mind, spiritual susceptibility, and the transformative process of sin and redemption is explained in both metaphysical and practical terms.
• The only genuine antidote is spiritual formation in community—specifically, in the Church, as it is meant to lead people to true humanity in the image of God.
• The modern era’s blindness to spiritual realities does not protect from their effects—danger arises from the denial itself.

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Final Reflection & Call to Action

[78:34–82:00] The priest urges those in “bondage” to cling to real community and accountability, to open themselves to God’s healing, and not to expect instant change but a lifelong transformation through participation in the divine life.

[85:24–89:41] Societies that claim to be secular are simply practicing new forms of paganism and covert ritual, with human sacrifice reappearing under various guises. Christianity’s temptation to secularize or politicize is itself a surrender to this cycle.

[107:30] Rejecting or mislabeling God's work as demonic (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) cuts one off from healing.

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For Listeners New to the Episode

This episode provides a deep dive into the spiritual roots of ancient civilization, connecting Biblical stories with the lived realities of today, arguing that the same spiritual dynamics shape both eras. If you’re interested in the intersection of history, theology, anthropology, and the pressing problems of modern life, this conversation provides a rigorous and honest guide to untangling them, while also pointing toward practical spiritual answers.

Transcript

[Orthodox Priest]

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[Interviewer]

Thank you for doing this. Yeah, absolutely. I have read Genesis, like, you know, on and off most of my life now. Never noticed the first part of chapter six with the Nephilim until about four years ago, someone mentioned it to me. And in the subsequent years, I must have had 15 conversations, 25 conversations about the Nephilim. So it seemed worth talking to someone who understands exactly what the Nephilim are. What are the Nephilim? And am I pronouncing it correctly?

[Orthodox Priest]

I mean, good enough. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, it's the I am at the end. The. The im is the plural in Hebrew.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Orthodox Priest]

But, yeah, so there's a little bit of debate about where exactly the word comes from because it's not a regularly used Hebrew word in the Hebrew Bible, which isn't all that odd either. There are a lot of words that are only used once in the Hebrew Bible, but people have tried to do different things with it. So there's a Hebrew verb nephal, which is the verb to fall. So some people have wanted to say, well, it's the fallen ones. But in Hebrew, Nephilim is reflexive. So it would be the ones who are fallen upon, which is a little more difficult. But it seems pretty clear most people agree. Now, because there's an Aramaic word, nephilim ends with an N, that just means giant. And so it seems pretty contextually clear that this is just the Hebrew form of that word. And this is talking about giants. It's translated in the Greek Old Testament with yantes in Greek, which means. Which is where we get the English word giant. But a lot of people, when they hear the word giant now think, fee, fi, fo, fum, Right? Yes. That's not the core of the idea. So all of the words used for giant not only refer to a tall person, but could also be used to mean a thug or a bully or a tyrant. And the example I use is, and you're old enough to remember this, when we went into Panama after Noriega, they're always referring to him as Panamanian strongman.

[Interviewer]

Yes, always.

[Orthodox Priest]

And that wasn't talking about his awesome bench press. No, that was, you know, that he was a dictator. Right. He was an authoritarian. And so it's the same kind of idea, right, that it's characterizing these people as that sort of thuggish, brutish kind of kind of character and. And referring to them as tall or referring to them as giants is meant to symbolize and suggest that.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Orthodox Priest]

And so in Genesis, at the beginning of Genesis, at the beginning of the flood story in Genesis 6, we have to understand that the flood story is not a new story when Genesis is telling it.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Orthodox Priest]

This is. Everyone had a flood story in the ancient Near East. So the text of Genesis is not primarily claiming, oh, there was this flood. It's talking about the flood that the original audience all sort of knew had happened.

[Interviewer]

Yes. And which it did happen, I think.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. Yes, there is a historical event. Right. That this is referring to. But. But you could have asked anybody from Greece to Mesopotamia to Egypt, they would have all agreed at that point that, yes, there was this advanced civilization, there was a flood that destroyed it, current civilization is rebuilt after that.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Now, the key. One of the key differences in Genesis 6 that you already have in those first four verses is Genesis recasts what that civilization was like. So in the pagan sources, that pre flood world was this golden age of, for the time, high technology. Right. And technology in the ancient Near Eastern mind included magic. Magic was a sort of spiritual technology. And all of these things happened before the light. And that sort of losing that world was sort of this great tragedy.

[Interviewer]

But everyone agreed it was a more advanced world than the world they lived in.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yes, yes. That there was knowledge there that had now been mostly lost.

[Interviewer]

Interesting.

[Orthodox Priest]

And so you find the civilizations that grew up after that in exhibit A of that is the. The original Babylonian empire. So like Hammurabi's.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Babylonian empire at the height of the Bronze Age. People don't understand how. How powerful the global structure was in the Bronze Age. It's called the Bronze Age because they were smelting bronze. They were getting the copper from Cyprus and the tin from what's now Afghanistan.

[Interviewer]

Well, it's quite a distance.

[Orthodox Priest]

And bringing that together smelt bronze in Iraq. Yeah. And Hammurabi had a preference for a particular style of sandal from Crete, so he was importing those. There was sort of this global economy in the Bronze Age going on. And Hammurabi himself was from a group of people called the Amuru who took over Mesopotamia. Amurru means in Akkadian Westerners, because they had come from what's now Syria, and those are the same people who are called Amorites in the Old Testament. And we'll probably come back to them as we go forward. But Hammurabi and the other Babylonian emperors attributed their success, their ability to establish this empire to the fact that they had access to this secret wisdom from before the flood.

[Interviewer]

Do we have any sense how much earlier the flood took place? What's the timeline, roughly?

[Orthodox Priest]

So Genesis doesn't really give us a time. There are people out there who want to add up the years and the genealogies. That doesn't really work. Yeah. Because different textual traditions have different numbers. They didn't have. There aren't numerals in Hebrew or Greek. And so you're using letters to code numbers.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

And so numbers get a little slippery in translation and copying and things. So a lot of people will attribute it to the. The earth changes that happened at the end of the last ice age.

[Interviewer]

Yes. So.

[Orthodox Priest]

So talking roughly 10,000 years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Other people are more literalist and want to add up those ages, will say that it was more like six, but

[Interviewer]

from the geologic record. Because there is record of a flood.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah, yeah. And there are massive. I mean, there are villages at the bottom of the Black Sea from that period 10,000 years ago.

[Interviewer]

There are.

[Orthodox Priest]

That are submerged. Yeah. Or the remains of villages. The. The. The glacial ice that melted created a lot of large body of waters that were not there.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

And sea levels rose a great deal.

[Interviewer]

So do we think. Do we think the flood came from melting glaciers?

[Orthodox Priest]

That. That's probably. That's probably the. The historical event that's connected to that.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

That. That when that ends, there's this massive shift. Right. And. And places where there used to be civilization are now underwater, literally. Right. And so, yeah, all those changes happen and. And there's this massive disruption.

[Interviewer]

So the villages, everything currently at the bottom of the Black Sea were built during this golden age that preceded previous to that.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And when we believe that, that. And do we believe, just as modern people, that that civilization was more technologically advanced than the ones that followed it?

[Orthodox Priest]

I mean, if we're talking about there is some evidence sort of Bronze Age. I mean, you can't go completely Graham Hancock on this.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that's actually exactly the question.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah, yeah. And. And Graham Hancock, if you get into his stuff, he starts getting into some little New Agey crystal.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Orthodox Priest]

Technology, psychic technology stuff that's a little iffy. But. But we know that there was definitely. You look at places like Gobekli Tepe in these. Exactly. There was definitely a level that was reached. There was a collapse. There was another move forward. The end of the Bronze Age, there's another collapse.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. And then rebuilding after that.

[Interviewer]

I mean, but there are ancient structures, stone structures, so we can't radiocarbon date them. But we don't even now can't say how they were built. Right. I mean, how would you.

[Orthodox Priest]

Some of them not. Not exactly. Yeah, right. We don't know exactly. We don't know because there's no. We're, we're dealing with pre literacy.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. So we're, we're making conclusions in guesswork. You go to Gobekli Tepe, you see the carvings of animals, you see the way they had skulls displayed in certain way. You know, we, we could do guesswork. But nobody left a leftist attack. Right. To frame any of it.

[Interviewer]

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[Interviewer]

But big picture, the pre flood civilization, we think reached some kind of apogee, some high point technologically. And. And then post flood had to rebuild.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. And then, and then. Yeah. And then his Bronze Age civilization, they're attributing now. They're, they're not saying we have some texts or something.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Orthodox Priest]

That survived the flood. They're saying that they're in contact with spirits who were active before the flood.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

And that it's the same spirits who are now revealing this wisdom to then. So you have this in Genesis 6:1 through 4, this, this Nephilim phenomenon before the flood. And Genesis 6 says at this time and afterward. Right. And that. And afterward is pointing to the, this sort of recurring or continuing or happening again.

[Interviewer]

So the physical world changes, but the spiritual remains constant.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right, right. And so part of that recasting of this pre flood civilization, this isn't a golden age. This is actually an age of incredible wickedness.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. And evil is that the, there are sort of these great kings from before the flood. You have the Sumerian kings list, other texts like this later that list the ages of the kings before the flood. And people, people tend to think that the, the ages of people in Genesis and the genealogies are kind of ridiculous with people who need to be 950Sumerian Kings list. You have people living hundreds of thousands of years right. In their list.

[Interviewer]

So hundreds of thousands of years.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yes. Genesis is, is reserved sort of in comparison.

[Interviewer]

What is that, do you think?

[Orthodox Priest]

A lot of that. So there's a little bit of a code to it. And this is true in Genesis also. So Babylonian mathematics was all base 60. Our math, we do base 10. Right. It's a decimal system. Theirs is base 60. And the survivors of that are. We have 60 seconds in a minute. 60 minutes in an hour. Right. 24 hours in a day. That's the, the leftover from sort of that Babylonian mathematics.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I didn't know we had Babylonian minutes.

[Orthodox Priest]

So. But yeah, that, that basics you math. And if you, if you look at those ages as sets of 60, there are sort of certain things encoded about the different kings and the different generations. That way nobody's totally cracked the code in Genesis. But to give you an example, in the Sumerian kings list, the seventh king in the list is the one who creates the solar calendar. 7th person in the list. And if you look at Genesis and the Epistle of Jude, which is like a paragraph in the New Testament, he refers to Enoch as the seventh from Adam.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

If you go to Enoch in the genealogies of Seth in Genesis, he lives for 365 years. So you have the number of days Right. In the solar calendar year as his age. He's the seventh person. The seventh person in the Sumerian kings list creates the solar calendar. So there are some sort of encoded connections going on with those, with those numbers.

[Interviewer]

Is there any evidence that human lifespan was much longer at one point than it is now?

[Orthodox Priest]

That's debated by a lot of people. Certainly not. I don't think anyone thinks in the thousands of years. Right.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

And part of the difficulty with that is that people think that people hear life expectancy statistics. Like you hear that in, at the beginning of the 20th century, the average life expectancy in the US was 35. And people think, oh, people were living to 35 and then dying. It's like. Well, no, a lot of people were dying. There's a high infant mortality rate. There's a lot of people died before 35. But people who made it to 35, a lot of them, you know, made it to 100, 120.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

So when you're, when you're doing kind of archeology and stuff. Yeah. You find a lot of young people because, you know, there's no antibiotics, there's no. Right, right. You have a very high mortality rate. It's hard to tell how long, exactly how long the truly elderly people were living. Right. Yes. So. But yeah, I don't think anybody would frame that in the thousands of years. Yes. So it's more about them saying something about these people. And like I said, the seventh one has the solar calendar. All of them have, in the Sumerian kings list have associated with them sort of the things that they discovered. But the discovery is always, it was revealed to them by this spirit came and this divine spirit revealed to them this and that and the other. And it's technological things like metallurgy, it's ancient technological things like sorcery and divination, and it's things about the natural world like the solar calendar.

[Interviewer]

But the ancients believe that technological advances came to them from the spiritual realm.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right, right. That, that's where, that's where it's coming from.

[Interviewer]

But that doesn't happen at all anymore.

[Orthodox Priest]

Well, this is. So this is, this is. Sorry yeah, no, this is part of. This is part of the larger discussion. And this is.

[Interviewer]

But nuclear technology definitely didn't come from the demonic.

[Orthodox Priest]

Well, this is. This is ex. This is exact. So. Within the framework of how the ancients understood it. And this is the ancients going all the way late antiquity, and. And this is frankly maintained in the Orthodox Church. So the mind, in the Greek word that's usually translated mind is nous. It's transliterated N O U S. And we're used to thinking of our mind as our brain.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

And it's sort of this computer in our skull.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, exactly. Right.

[Orthodox Priest]

That churns and processes. But that's not how they thought about it. They thought about the mind more as a sensory organ, like your eye.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

So you'll see it referred to as the eye of the heart or the eye of the mind, and that the mind sort of perceives the spiritual realm. And so ideas are like sights or sounds or smells. They're not produced by the brain. Right. They're not produced by the mind, they're received by the brain, they're received by the mind.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. And so they come from outside. Right.

[Interviewer]

But that's the experience of people who are paying attention now, even. Like, who hasn't had that?

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. And. And I've never met anyone who had the experience of generating a thought. Right. Like, what are the steps from not a thought to a thought? Right.

[Interviewer]

Oh, it's such a deep point.

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

So. Yeah. And so these things. These things come from. From outside. And so this is in the genealogy of Cain in Genesis. Right. It's. It's Cain's descendants who invent metallurgy and use it to make weapons. Right. And who discover divination and who discover music and use it for seduction and. Right. For. For these other things. Right. Because. And the idea is that these, These demonic spirits that are antithetical to humanity bring knowledge to humans before they're ready for it.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Orthodox Priest]

That a time would come when humanity had reached a level of spiritual maturity, when they could receive this knowledge.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

And. And put it to proper use. And so it gets revealed early.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Orthodox Priest]

And that begins with the serpent in the garden.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Orthodox Priest]

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not itself evil. Right. So Adam is created, humanity is created innocent. Right. But innocent like a child is innocent and created for this purpose, created in God's image in order to grow into his likeness.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

And so a point of maturity would have come where humanity could have had the knowledge of good and evil and been able to make right good choices. Because God has the knowledge of good and evil. Yes. He knows what good and evil are. And this is the way the phrase the knowledge of good and evil is used throughout the Old Testament. It's used to refer to a child coming to sort of what we would call the age of accountability. Coming to the age where they understand good and evil, right and wrong. And so the serpent comes and promises, the devil comes and promises, you know, no, God doesn't want you to have this because he doesn't want you to be like him. Here's the shortcut. Get this knowledge now before you're prepared for it. And it brings about destruction. So, yes, right, the, the atomic bomb is revealed to man. We don't use it as a carbon neutral source of electrical energy. Right. We use it to make a weapon. And I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but Nagasaki was the most Christian city in Japan.

[Interviewer]

I'm highly aware of it. I'm highly aware of it.

[Orthodox Priest]

One of the first things it gets used for.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Is to wipe out.

[Interviewer]

I'm fixated on it.

[Orthodox Priest]

Actually wipe out most of the Christian population of Japan.

[Interviewer]

So they zeroed in on a church.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yep. So. And that infuriates people when you, when you say it, but it's true.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. So that, that's a, that's a pattern. Right. And so, yeah, that, that is the understanding. And so they're not. The promise is always, oh, I'm going to give you the secret knowledge. This is going to give you power, this is going to give you control, this is going to give you influence, this is going to give you xyz. Right. But ultimately it ends up being toward humanity's destruction.

[Interviewer]

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[Orthodox Priest]

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[Interviewer]

did you know if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees. Turn the temperature down with blinds.com and get up to 50% off custom window treatments like solar roller shades and more during the Memorial Day mega sale. Whether you want to DIY it or have a pro handle everything, we've got you free samples, real design experts and zero pressure. Just help when you need it. This is your last chance to shop up to 50% off site wide during the Memorial Day mega [e-mail] rules and restrictions apply. So to go back to the Nephilim. Nephilim? Yeah, the passage in Genesis referring to, which is just a couple sentences long I think is explaining why God sent the flood. Why does all of this have to be destroyed? Why does peak civilization picnic technology have to be destroyed? And those two ver. Can you summarize what it says?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. So it refers to the Nephilim as the men of renown.

[Interviewer]

Men of renown.

[Orthodox Priest]

So it's referencing these kings, these ancient kings, right?

[Interviewer]

The people in charge who are looked

[Orthodox Priest]

at as heroes, as divine heroes by these post flood pagans. Right. Look back to them as these were the leaders of the golden age. These are the great figures. These are the spirits we want to emulate, right? These are the people we want to be like, the great heroes. And instead Genesis casts them as these evil wicked tyrants and thugs who are leading people to destruction, to chaos, right? Genesis says that it gets to the point where every thought of humanity is always evil all the time. And these people are actively leading humanity in that direction. It's not just coincidence, right? They're teaching this, they're embodying this. Right? And so when you, when you have a person who are Calling a. A giant or a Nephilim, we're talking about sort of a fully demonized human. So in. In the way the church has traditionally talked about sin, related to what we were just talking about with the mind, there's sort of these stages. First stage is thought comes into your mind, right?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

You can't control that. Just like you're walking down the street and you see something or hear something. Right. Thought comes into your mind. That's not really sin yet. Right. But then we start to entertain that thought, start to dwell on that thought. We start to let that thought take root, start to let that thought turn into a plan. Right.

[Interviewer]

Been there.

[Orthodox Priest]

Then we let that plan turn into action. Right?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

Then that action turns into a habit, a repeated action over time that we fall into. As it becomes a habit, it starts to take control of us. So we talk about the sins as the passions because they make us passive. Right. They're acting upon us at a certain point. And you can see that with, you know, anger. Right. You reach a point where it's now driving the bus. Right. Or lust.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Or, you know, addiction. Right. All these things. So it gets to the point where it takes control. And then beyond that you get what we call demonic possession, where there is this sort of spirit that is now driving full time. You're not even really making your own decisions anymore. You're kind of lost to it. And then sort of the furthest you can go in terms of being lost. When we're talking about these Nephilim and these giants is that spirit isn't in control of you anymore. You just agree with it. You're on board with that sort of demonic spirit deliberately. You're rejoicing and enjoying sort of the chaos and the destruction and the. And the wickedness. And by the grace of God. There's relatively few of those people. Right. But they do exist.

[Interviewer]

Do you mind if I just pull up the passage? Because there's one part of it I want to ask you about which you haven't addressed, which is just how different the nephilim are. I mean, they're substantively different. They're genetically different from people. And I think this is the most evocative or the most interesting, the weirdest. This is. I think this is niv. Whatever. It's a version of the. Of the Old Testament, when human beings began to increase in number in the earth and daughters were born to them. The sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful and they married any of them they chose. Then the Lord said My spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal and their days will be 120 years. The Nephilim were on the earth in these days and also afterward. And the sons of God went to the daughters of. Of humans and had children with them. They were the heroes of old men of renown.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So that's describing mating.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Between spiritual entities. Sons of God, whatever that means.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And human women, really. The rape of them, which, whoever they choose suggests rape.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So what is that?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. So sons of God is used, for example, in Job. This is referring to a group of what we would call angelic beings.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

So the ancient texts, including ancient Jewish texts, will use small G gods to refer to them. But that makes us really uncomfortable. Yes.

[Interviewer]

The modern world is as monotheists.

[Orthodox Priest]

Angelic beings works a little bit for people, but even that we think of angels and we think, oh, kind of effeminate guy with wings. Right. And that's not really what. What angels are. Angels. Angelic beings are sort of vast cosmic intelligences.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

And so we have to sort of think about that a little differently, like what a spirit is. But. Yes. This is talking about them having intimate relations. Right. With. With human women and that. That is involved in the production of these people. Right. Of the giants who we were. Nephilim talking about. Right. And their sort of reproduction. Right. On. On the Earth. And.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so that's a different genetic profile. They're not fully human.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right, right. And so this is. This is.

[Interviewer]

Now we're getting freaky.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. This is. This is also an inversion. Right. Because, of course, the. The. From the pagan perspective, they would say these people are part divine. Right. So the Epic of Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh is two thirds divine and one third human. Right. According to the Epic of Gilgamesh. And there's a text called the Book of the Giants that we found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

[Interviewer]

Huh.

[Orthodox Priest]

That's not part of the Bible, but it includes a list of the giants, a list of the Nephilim, and Gilgamesh is one of the names that's listed there. So this was a very deliberate. Right. This isn't just incidental.

[Interviewer]

And this was in Qumran.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah, yeah. And so this is, you know, a millennium later, but they still have Gilgamesh in mind as one of the.

[Interviewer]

So this is right at the turn of the last millennium.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Around the time of Jesus.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah, yeah. So that, of course, was part of why they were so great and so good and so admirable and why they had this secret knowledge and so this is turning that around and saying, no, they're 2/3 demon, essentially, they're 2/3 unclean spirit. They're 2/3.

[Interviewer]

But this idea, just like the, the fact of it, that entities from the spiritual realm, non human entities, whatever they are, whoever we're going to describe them, lower G, gods, angels, demons, whatever, that they can mate with human beings and produce not fully human replicas of human beings who can walk among us and rule over us. Like this is a biblical principle.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah, well, yeah, but what this, what this sort of corresponds to, right, if we had a time machine and a. Right, a GoPro, is that there were these particular rituals that were happening that were involved in the production of the, the next king. And this happens after the flood too. And one of the big clues to this that's in the Old Testament is there's this figure who shows up after the flood, after the exodus, Og, the king of Bashan, who is described as the last of the Rephaim in scripture. And, and who exactly the Rephaim were, we sort of weren't sure. The word pops up a few places, other places in the Old Testament. In Isaiah, the text that's traditionally understood to talk about the fall of the devil from heaven, talks about as he's thrown down into the underworld, the Rephaim rising up to meet him. So there are these few places. There's Psalm 88, talks about, will the Rephaim arise and praise you? And it's talking about in the underworld, talking about, would they praise God? The answer being assumed no. But we now know exactly who they were, because in the mid 20th century, we discovered the city of Ugarit, which had been destroyed at the Bronze age collapse around 1200 BC and lost. Nobody knew it was there. Nobody knew it existed. It was discovered. And we discovered a library of texts there in a language that we now call Ugaritic, after the city.

[Interviewer]

Where is it? Pardon me?

[Orthodox Priest]

It's in western Syria.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Orthodox Priest]

Just above Lebanon, just north, right of. Of Lebanon. And Rosh Shamra is what it's called now. And we found this library of texts. Ugaritic is a Semitic language. So it's like Hebrew or Aramaic in terms of the vocabulary and the, the grammar. But it's written in cuneiform on tablets. And so those tablets survived because those clay tablets are very difficult to break, even if you try. And in there, it shed a lot of light on the Old Testament because as I mentioned earlier, there's a lot of words that only appear once in the Hebrew Old Testament. But we now have cognate words in Ugaritic that help us understand some of these things. But one of the texts, there is a ritual text for when the king died. And when the king of Ugarit died, they did this funerary ritual where they offered sacrifices and did what is essentially magic, right? Ritual magic to try to ward off the Rephaim who were the spirits of these dead ancient kings, so that the king who had just died could pass by them safely to get into the underworld. And so that then showed us. Oh, okay. Well, so that's what Isaiah is talking about. That's what the psalms are talking about, the spirits of these dead kings. And so Og being the last one, right, who's alive at the time of the Exodus. He's one of these giants. Deuteronomy describes his bed. It randomly says, you know, talks about Og talks about Og being slain by the Israelites. Him being slain is talked about in numbers and Deuteronomy. And in two different psalms, they sing about how great it is that Og, king of Bashan was slain by God through the Israelites. And they say, OG's bed, he had this iron bed, and it gives the dimensions. And you're sort of like, well, that's a random fun fact. You know, Og slept here, and the dimensions are huge. You're like, okay, he's a giant. Right. But we found a ritual bed of the same measurements in the great ziggurat of Edamananki in Babylon, Iraq. Yeah, in the city of Babylon. And that ritual bed was used in these sexual rituals to produce the next king. So this is not just saying Og was tall. This is saying Og came out of this sort of sexual ritual. And this would involve what were called at the time shrine prostitutes. These were enslaved women who were sort of used as vessels for they would be seen to be possessed by the spiritual entity. And then there would be sexual relations with the king at the time. So the king at the time was seen to be as part divine and part human. We have this woman who's possessed and then she is human. And so that's. You get the two thirds, one third. There's sort of three parents.

[Interviewer]

So the. The temple prostitute would be the mother of the new king.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right.

[Interviewer]

And the idea was because she was possessed by spirits, those spirits would infuse the new king.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right, right. And that. That's sort of. And so birthed by. By that. Right. So it's the son of the previous king who was divine and the son of this lower G. Lowercase G. God. Right? And so that that ritual, it was common throughout the ancient world. After the rise of Christianity, it was still common. You see it in places like Asia. The Khmer Empire in Cambodia had a version of this.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. And then the most recent example is Japan. Right.

[Interviewer]

Where the most civilized, technologically advanced, rational country in the world. That's in ancient Japan.

[Orthodox Priest]

Well, up, up technically, still currently on the. When a new Japanese emperor succeeds to the throne, he ritually and ceremonially spends the night with the sun goddess. Up until when part of the coronation ritual. Well, they still do it, but the Japanese government says that the sexual element of it was removed after World War II.

[Interviewer]

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[Orthodox Priest]

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[Interviewer]

So up Until World War II, the Japanese emperor was having sex with a sun goddess. Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

So Hirohito within living memory. Yeah. Hirohito would have been the last one. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Who was the sun goddess?

[Orthodox Priest]

Well, I mean, this is there. He would go into a chamber with a number of concubines who were embodying. Right. The sun goddess. So this is exactly this Kind of ritual still going on.

[Interviewer]

So how did. Okay, so this is Japan, which is an island in East Asia.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And this is a like, precise replication of what was happening in the Near East.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

There's a long way away.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yes. How.

[Interviewer]

And then also in Indochina, among the Chemist.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Also far from Japan and even farther from the Middle East. So, like, how are these totally different cultures, languages, geographic locations all doing exactly the same weird thing?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. Well. And I mean, this is where we get to the idea of a demonic

[Interviewer]

spirit, because maybe it's real.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. We just. Maybe we have to accept it. And we.

[Interviewer]

Is that the answer?

[Orthodox Priest]

We know this. Yeah, we know this. Right. We've seen sort of mass evil arise within living memory in the world that can't be explained by a large group of people all making the same bad decisions simultaneously by coincidence. Right.

[Interviewer]

This is what brought me to God, was this exact understanding. It's very obvious observation which somehow I missed, but. Yes, that's right.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And.

[Orthodox Priest]

And we've all been on the less negative side. Right. We've all been in crowds, we've been in groups, we've been in stadiums, we've been in a place of worship with a group of people where we've had the experience of sort of acting together. Right. Of participating in something together. Right. And that's. That's ultimately what a spirit is. A spirit is a sort of collective consciousness at a level sort of above human. Right. It's hard to understand. Right. But if we work. But it's not hard to recognize back a little bit. Right. So our human body is made up of. There are actually sub organisms within our human body. Right. It's kind of gross to think about, but chemically, right now my gut flora and your gut flora are having chemical conversations.

[Interviewer]

I'm sorry.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. As we sit here, the bacteria that our digestive bacteria communicate chemically

[Interviewer]

with one another.

[Orthodox Priest]

With one another. Yeah. When. When humans get together. Right. There are all of these functions going on within our bodies, Right. That have their own kind of low level consciousness. And then we have our human consciousness, which is sort of over the top of that, which is the summing up of all of that. And so when we talk about angelic beings or demonic beings, we're just talking about a level of consciousness that's then above the individual human.

[Interviewer]

But they're not projections of the individual human. They exist separate and apart from the.

[Orthodox Priest]

They exist every part. And we participate in them.

[Interviewer]

Right. But we don't create them, we sort

[Orthodox Priest]

of embody them in the world. Right. We Kind of be, this is, this is what God created humanity for originally, right? So he said earlier, Adam is created sort of innocent at the beginning of this journey to grow into the, the likeness of God. The way he would do that is by functioning as God's image in the world. So in, in Genesis 1, the six days of creation, the first three days before that starts, God says the problem is that the earth is formless and void. In Hebrew, it's tohu abohu, tohu bohu, tohu wabohu. Yeah, it rhymes. And, and it means basically it's formless or chaotic, it's disordered and it's empty. And so in the first three days, God sets it in order, right? So he separates the light from the darkness, he separates the sky from the sea, he separates the dry land from the sea. So he places everything in order. And then in the second set of three days, days, four, five and six, they correspond, right? So day four, he's already separated light from darkness. Sun, moon, stars, right? Sort of the bodies. He's already separated the sky and the sea. Fifth day, he fills the sky with life, he fills the sea with life. Sixth day, he creates land animals and man, right? Because on the third day he had separated, so he's taking care of those. But then he says to man, when he's been created, fill the earth and subdue it. And what is that two part command? Subdue means to put it in order, right? And fill it, fill it with life. And so humanity is created to sort of continue that work of God in the world. That's the purpose, to continue to participate in what God is doing in the world. That then trans transforms humanity. So positive example of this. God is at work continually in the world, loving every human person. When I go and I show love to my neighbor, that love's not coming from me, right? I'm participating in God's love. God is loving them through me. But that transforms me. Yes, that love transforms and changes me more toward God's likeness. And the reverse is true, right? And in that way, I'm sort of embodying the spirit of God, the Holy Spirit in the world. But the flip side is true. That means humanity can also embody other spirits in the world. And when you do that and you bring that into the world and make it concrete, that also changes you. And it's not just a spiritual or a psychological transformation, it's even a physical transformation. We've seen that you can see someone who has gone down a dark road in life, photo of them yes. They repent.

[Interviewer]

They.

[Orthodox Priest]

They change. They come back. You see a photo of them out. You could physically see it.

[Interviewer]

Well, there's no question about it.

[Orthodox Priest]

That transformation happens in both directions.

[Interviewer]

You can read it in their faces.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. And so as humans, we're going to participate in something. There are things larger than us at work in the world.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Orthodox Priest]

God being the most important one. And we're either going to participate in what he's doing in the world and be formed and shaped by that, or we're going to participate in something else and be formed and shaped by that. And the end of that is our destruction of ourselves and each other.

[Interviewer]

There are. The reason I was lingering on the creation of the Nephilim.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Is because it suggests this idea that sounds really radical when you first think about it, that there are hybrids.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Spirit, human, together. But then as you talk about it a little bit, and you realize that every culture has always believed this. In fact, Jesus has described as the. As the union of God and a human woman. It's like, actually it's a central concept everywhere, all the time. Like, it's not shocking.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. Not in a sexual way, in that case. Yeah. Be clear. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Right. Sexual way. Right. But.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

This baby is the product of God's spirit and a human.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. And Christ is the express image of God. Right. He is the fullness of the image.

[Interviewer]

Right. And the likeness of God.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Different, but related stories about people being so. Why is it crazy? And I think people have, you know, lived in the world for a while. Why is it crazy to someone. Have a feeling when you're talking to someone that this is not. That there's something else going on here that this person's not. You know, does this still happen?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah, I. I think I have felt

[Interviewer]

that way really strongly about people in charge a couple of times. Not just I disagree with them. I just, you know, I think you're a bad person. It's not even that. It's like, what is this?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah, yeah. No, I have. I have only kind of thankfully met a person like that once in my life. It was in a part of my pastoral training in a. In a forensic psych ward. I met a person who had done. I won't describe what. Because it's hideous and you won't be able to get it out of your head. But had done horrific things to a child and that's how he ended up there.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

But who enjoyed bragging about it and describing it in detail to people and watching the look on their Faces Right. Like that level of gone. So there are people like that.

[Interviewer]

And did you feel as you talked to this person or listened to this person, that there was. This was not fully human or this was some kind of hybrid?

[Orthodox Priest]

You could look in his eyes and see that there was something inhuman there.

[Interviewer]

I've had that same experience with people. Not quite as cartoonish and obvious as that, but still like, what is this?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

So what is this?

[Orthodox Priest]

It's. Well, I mean, that's. So we would say in the church that. That to become like Christ, to be formed in. In the likeness of God, is to become truly human. That's what it means to be human.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

And so to the degree which you go down the other road, you become something inhuman. St. John Chrysostom in one of his homilies is talking to. So he's. He's preaching in Constantinople to just regular people.

[Interviewer]

Fourth century.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. End of the fourth, beginning of the fifth. Yeah. And he, he says to his people, he says, so you believe that if someone dies a violent death, they become a demon. Right. So we kind of had that cultural idea too. Right. Somebody dies some kind of violent or horrible death, they come back as this vengeful ghost or whatever.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, exactly, yeah. Murder victims haunt the house where they were killed.

[Orthodox Priest]

So they apparently had that kind of idea too. And he says that's incorrect. He says it is people who live like demons who become demons. So in the same way that there is an actual transformation of humanity as, as we're formed in the likeness of God, there is an actual transformation of humanity into something else.

[Interviewer]

Of course. And it's obvious you become how you

[Orthodox Priest]

live for sure, when you go, when you go down that other road, it's an actual metaphys. Transformation of who you are, even to the point where. So a big part of the understanding of what's going on with the Nephilim before the Flood is that a lot of the demonic spirits that are talked about later in scripture and after the flood are understood to be the spirits of those Nephilim, of those dead Nephilim. This is explicit in like the Book of Jubilees, which is a Jewish texts from the period in between the. The Old and New Testaments, But a very important one, if you read like Josephus's Jewish Antiquities, he's cribbing from the history and Jubilees all the time. He just accepts it as historical. And it talks about at the time of the flood, the Nephilim are wiped out, they all die, and they have sort of a leader who's named Mastema. And Mastema comes to God and wants to strike this bargain with him. Don't send us all into the abyss. Don't send us all into the Lake of Fire. Let some of us stay on the earth. We promise, if you let us do that, we'll only torment bad people. We'll only torment wicked people. And in the book of Jubilees, God agrees to allow 10% of them to remain to torment wicked people. But it says that God's motive is he wants to use that to bring wicked people to repentance. Right. So there's sort of a theodicy going on there, right. Sort of justification of God. Why does God allow these demonic spirits? But you see reflections of that story even in like the Gospels. Right. Because these spirits are told at that time you're going to be. You're allowed to honor until the last judgment, and then you're going to the Lake of Fire with everybody else. But you get this sort of reprieve. So, for example, when Christ comes to the demoniac man and the demons say to him, have you come to torment us before the time?

[Interviewer]

Exactly.

[Orthodox Priest]

Like, hey, wait, we had a deal. Yeah, right, that's. And then he ends up casting them into the pigs, and the pigs run off the cliff. And it says they run off the cliff into the abyss, which is the place where those other demonic spirits were imprisoned. And there's a dynamic going on there where the name Jesus is actually the name Joshua. Right. Of course, Joshua in the book of Joshua goes and battles these giant clans to sort of reclaim the land and purify them from evil. That's paralleled with Christ is sort of the true Joshua comes into the land to purify it from evil, and he's dealing with the spirits of these same beings. And so the idea that. How does that become a spirit? Well, I mean, we've seen this, right. You can point to men in history who were wicked men. Right. Who are long dead, but their spirit has lived on.

[Interviewer]

Oh, no doubt.

[Orthodox Priest]

People have continued to participate in that spirit and embody it. Right. And bring it forward. Same's true on the other side. Those are the people we call saints. Right. They live a lived a life embodying the spirit of God being formed into his likeness. And even though they've died, sort of their spirit lives on. They become the patrons.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Of people and nations and. Right. And families and people groups and continue to have this life. Right. As.

[Interviewer]

So you're describing the process of becoming that every person experiences. You're becoming something, but Genesis 6 is describing an act of creation.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Saying that these beings were different from the very start because they didn't have two human parents.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Okay. So that's a very different thing.

[Orthodox Priest]

Well, and there's. So that we. We also have to understand what it means to be part of a people in the ancient sense. We have concepts like ethnicity and DNA and.

[Interviewer]

Yep.

[Orthodox Priest]

And these kind of things that, of course, they had no idea about those concepts. So being part of a people was about two things. Participating in their initiation rituals. Yes. And then participating in the ongoing ritual life of the community. So biblically, you look at ancient Israel, what made you an Israelite is if you were male, you were circumcised. If you were female, you were either the daughter or the wife of a circumcised male, and you ate the Passover. Right. You participated in the festal sort of year within Christianity. Right. It's you're baptized initiation. Right. And then you participate in the Eucharist and the ongoing sacramental life of the church. So the same was true on this other side. Right. So what we've been talking about is essentially the initiation ritual. Right. The beginning. Right. And then there was an ongoing ritual life. And according to the Book of Wisdom or the Wisdom of Solomon, that depending on where you land. Right. Christianity may or may not be part of your Old Testament, makes this explicit. Other texts outside of the Scriptures make this explicit that the ongoing ritual life of these people involved human sacrifice and human sacrifice involved cannibalism. Yes. We have a very skewed view of we haven't done a lot of animal sacrifice and seen a lot of it. So we have kind of the skewed view that it's about killing the animal. It's not really about killing the animal. It's about eating the animal.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Part of it being offered to God or a God, and then part of it being consumed. Right. And so cannibalism either at the level you see in Mesoamerica. Right. Blood drinking. Right. That's why blood drinking is forbidden throughout the Bible. And so there was cannibalism involved in this human sacrifice. And so that was sort of renewed. You have this initiation, you have this beginning, and then there is this ongoing ritual participation.

[Interviewer]

Yes. And I mean, not to disagree with you, but I just have to ask, like, if. So if ancient peoples had no sense of genetics, why were genealogies so important?

[Orthodox Priest]

Well, that's. That's descent. Right.

[Interviewer]

It's genetics.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that could be broken. Right. So let me give you an example, Caleb. There are sort of two. There's. There's the episode after the Exodus where the spies, one spy from each of the twelve tribes of Israel is sent into the land. And ten of them come back and say, no, there's Nephilim there. We can't do it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

And it's going to be too tough. Right. You don't want to mess with them. Right. And two of them, Joshua and Caleb.

[Interviewer]

Yep.

[Orthodox Priest]

Come back and say, no, you know? Yeah, we can't do this by ourselves. But God's on our side. God's going to win the victory for us. Put your faith in him. We can do this. Caleb is identified in the text as being a Kenizite, a Kenneth. It is not only a Canaanite, it's one of the Canaanite tribes they were supposed to wipe out. It's one of the giant clans. It's one these people. He's technically one of them genetically or by descent. Right. But he's listed as an elder of the tribe of Judah in the Old Testament because he was incorporated. And when you're incorporated, they would have said about him, no, Judah was his father. He was a descendant of Judah. Right. Now we would say, well, not genetically.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Orthodox Priest]

But from their view, now that he's been ritually incorporated, you. You didn't just become an Israelite in general. You became a member of a particular family that was part of a particular clan that was part of a particular tribe. Right. And those are now his people, and the Kenizites are not his people. He is now not a Kenizite. So that's the difference is that that was. That was malleable. That was changeable.

[Interviewer]

So when did the requirement emerge that in order to be Jewish, you had to be the son of a Jewish mother?

[Orthodox Priest]

That was after the destruction of the temple. Yeah. That was after the return from exile. So if you read Ezra and Nehemiah, they're talking about that. They're talking that that's when they ban Israelite men marrying foreign women.

[Interviewer]

Right. And the matrilineal descent is a way of ensuring.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. Genetics just guaranteeing that. Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Because everyone knows your mom is.

[Orthodox Priest]

But so that's a later thing. If you look at. In the Torah, in Deuteronomy, there's a whole ritual setup for. If you want to marry a woman from one of these other groups where she shaves her head and there's this sort of ritual thing where she's. Her old life is put away in her new life. Now she's an Israelite. Right. So that they had a way of incorporating.

[Interviewer]

Is there any fossil record that supports the idea of giants striding the earth?

[Orthodox Priest]

Actual foot tall people?

[Interviewer]

No.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I mean, I don't know how tall, but taller than.

[Orthodox Priest]

Well, yeah, so there is a lot of times. So when we have visual depictions are usually depicted as 15 foot foot tall. But that's a, that's a sort of deliberate coding. So in the ancient near east they believed that, that their gods had a ritual body that was about 15ft tall. And if you look at we, we've got excavated temples of baal for example, where they have footprints. They're supposed to be Baal's footprints. Right. As he was walking in. To be sort of enthroned in his temple was the idea. And if you measure the stride, it's based on him being about 15 foot tall.

[Interviewer]

So they're doing think they're real footprints.

[Orthodox Priest]

Well, these are clearly carved by people. Okay, right. To represent that. But the idea is that's how tall the gods were. So that's how they usually depict the Nephilim as being 15 foot tall. Goliath is sort of one of the last stragglers. Yes. At the end of the book of Joshua it says that sort of the last of the Anakim, which is another word for the Nephilim, fled into Philistine territory. And so then when David comes as king, he sort of roots out the last of them. Right. Goliath being one of them. How tall he is. Again, numbers, there's not numerals, so things go weird places. According to the Greek Old Testament tradition, he was 6 foot 6, which is like 2 inches taller than me, but which in the early Iron Age would have made him gigantic. Right. The average man was I think like 5 foot 5 right at the time in that area in the Hebrew text, he's nine foot nine, which is more clearly a sort of supernatural kind of height. Yes. Right. To sort of, to sort of convey this. So certainly there were people who were abnormally tall, like in the 6 foot 6, 6 foot 7 range. Right. Some of them. Who, who were these people? We do not have. And given. We don't have a lot of skeletal remains from that period either. Right. That are.

[Interviewer]

There are a million Reports from the 19th century in North America in the US of people finding nine foot tall skeletons in some cave in Nevada, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. They were all destroyed by the Smithsonian. Any of that true?

[Orthodox Priest]

Not as, not as far as we could tell. Not as far as we could verify and some of those were proven to be the Cardiff Giants. Of course those are proven to be hoaxes. So I think a lot of that came out of. There was very much in the anti modernist movement. Right. What became evangelical Christianity. There is very much an idea that we need to scientifically prove that everything in the Bible is literally true.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

And. And that led to some of that grasping.

[Interviewer]

But as far as you know, there have never been found on earth fossils of human beings.

[Orthodox Priest]

Not verifiably. Not.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you believe that since Genesis 6 says this process of the sons of God impregnating the daughters of man is still ongoing. Do you think that happens now?

[Orthodox Priest]

I mean it certainly could. Yeah. It certainly. It certainly could. Like we said, it was 80 years ago. We know they were doing a similar sort of thing with the Japanese emperor. There's no reason it couldn't. There's no reason the attendant later rituals with human sacrificing things couldn't be going

[Interviewer]

on because they're just glimpses of it. I mean what's interesting in the. About the Epstein files, for example.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Which to the extent I have read them are only hinting at various things and you have no idea exactly what it means. It is like reading an esoteric text. It's like you're not read in, so you don't really interpret it clearly. But there is a fixation on blood, on genetics. And there seems to have been that for a. Well since the time that we're talking about like.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Blood, human sacrifice, sex, not just for pleasure but. Or reproduction but as a ritual. Like these are ongoing motifs through human history.

[Orthodox Priest]

Aleister Crowley is a real person. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

100. But I mean the Incas were doing the same thing that I don't know, some remote African tribe was doing with Canaanites were doing. It's like everyone's doing the same thing, is fixated on the same four or five themes.

[Orthodox Priest]

I am by no means a flat earther, but early NASA there was some weird stuff with some of those scientists.

[Interviewer]

Oh, big time.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. Yeah. So that's definitely. Right. That. And, and well, so.

[Interviewer]

But I guess what I'm saying is if different cultures at different times throughout history are focused on exactly the same kind of non obvious ideas, like the spirit world breeds with people, technology comes from the spirit world. Blood is somehow magical. Human sacrifice is like the source of power. Like who would, who would think of these things? Like.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. This isn't a coincidence that just they're

[Interviewer]

rooted in some kind of reality that.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. And it's and it's a, it's a react, like I said, that you're. You're going to embody and participate in something. Right. Spiritually. And as Christianity has receded and been lost in quote, unquote, Western countries. Right. We should expect more and more of that to come intruding back in. Because that's the other option, Frank.

[Interviewer]

No, you would expect something brand new and like, craves. People think of like a new religious expression that isn't based on human sacrifice, but they never have.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. Well, if it was just humans making it up.

[Interviewer]

That's what I'm saying.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So it's obvious. It's obvious to me. I mean, I'm not a priest, unlike you, so maybe this, like, I'm just figuring this out. But like, clearly human sacrifice does bring dark power to the people who commit it.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Like, duh.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yes, they did. They. Yeah, they weren't doing this stuff because it didn't work. They were having some kind of experience. They were having some kind of. Right. Something was happening there.

[Interviewer]

So witchcraft is real.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. And, and, and when you read just purely pagan sources. Right. They're kind of honest about it. Right. And this stuff is. So we've received the classics through the Enlightenment, which means we purge all the. Not just anything quote, unquote supernatural, but even religious elements. There are still people publishing books, talking about how Plato and Aristotle were not religious. You know, they represent these sort of. Because the figures of the Enlightenment sort of recast the ancient philosophers as versions of them, you know, and since they had rejected the religion of their time, well, clearly someone like Plato or Aristotle can't have accepted the religion of their.

[Interviewer]

They were like enthusiastic polytheists.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yes. Yeah. Aristotle's school was in a temple of Apollo. Right. They were on board. They nuanced things. Right. But I mean, in Plato's Dialogue, Socrates talks about how he has this. This demon. This demon, this spirit that dwells within him and whispers wisdom to his soul. Right. Yeah. There's no, you know, it's Christians who come along and say that's a bad thing. Right. And then post Christian Enlightenment people say, oh, well, that's silly. So we'll just.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's not a thing.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. But they're very honest about it. Right. I mean, ancient authors are very honest. What's happening at the, the Bacchanalia, the actual Bacchanalia is people are being possessed by the Bacchae, by these spirits and participating in. In drug and alcohol induced orgies. Right. In, in public.

[Interviewer]

So these feasts again the point of this is not just sex for pleasure. Let's go get laid. The point of it is to commune with. With demons. Right?

[Orthodox Priest]

It's part of the. Yes. These spirits are possessing them. Right. Taking possession of them, taking over their body and participating in these things. That's what they say they were doing.

[Interviewer]

Well, that's, I think of the remaining world religions that we know about that are practiced in public, only Haitian Voodoo and African voodoo is honest about that.

[Orthodox Priest]

Talks that openly about it. Talks that openly about some forms of Hinduism. But yeah, okay. They aren't prevalent in the West. Right.

[Interviewer]

Outside of India.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right? Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But certainly in Haiti. Like there's human sacrifice. It's denied in, in the United States media for whatever reason, but it's. Talk to any hait about it.

[Orthodox Priest]

It happens. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Oh, it's the center of the religion.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Orthodox Priest]

And.

[Interviewer]

But the point of it is not just to kill kids for its own sake. The point of it is to receive spiritual power.

[Orthodox Priest]

Spiritual. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I'm down in southern Louisiana, so I'm not that far from.

[Interviewer]

And that still goes on, I mean, of course.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yes. Yeah. So

[Interviewer]

what are like, what are we to understand about the Nephilim now?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think it is this possibility that's at the end of that chain of yielding to sin and wickedness. Right. This is the anti saint. Right, Right. This is what happens when we not only don't find our full humanity in Christ, but give up our humanity in favor of something else that, that twists and distorts our humanity. And so, yeah, it is, it is this dark possibility. And there are people out there who have gone that, that far. I sometimes get asked as someone who is that far gone, can they repent? Right. Can they turn back? And it's sort of. Well, with God all things are possible. Right. Like, I don't, I don't see how. But with God all things are possible. Right. But an awareness that that is a dark possibility and that it is something that happens. There are people doing this. I said not long after the full Epstein files got released, I said on my podcast, I said, well, we now know that the world is run by demon worshiping pederas. Sort of like it has been since the Roman Empire.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Or before. Right. And Christians were able to operate Right. During that time in a world that, you know, was. That was how it operated. So I think it's good to be free of some of our delusions.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. In this regard. And not being aware of the spiritual world or ignoring it or denying it doesn't make it stop existing.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

It's sort of like walking through a minefield under fire and just denying that there's a war happening.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

You're just gonna end up being a casualty. Right. Of sort of the spiritual warfare and things that are going on all around you that you refuse to see.

[Interviewer]

It also seems to have. I mean, the world that you describe pre flood is a world that's just given itself over to rule by demons.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And the manifestation.

[Orthodox Priest]

Everyone has come on board.

[Interviewer]

Everyone's come on board. There's no meaningful resistance to it. Technology has reached its, you know, kind of impossibly high place. That technology itself was a gift from. From demons. It's anti human, it's anti God, and then God destroys the world.

[Orthodox Priest]

I mean, it starts over.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. So what does that have implications for the moment we're living in on the brink of AI?

[Orthodox Priest]

Well, I mean, everywhere in this is true in Second Temple Jewish literature, but it's true in the New Testament when they're talking about the end. Right. The end of the world. Christ's glorious appearing when that ends. It's always compared to the days of Noah. Yeah, Right. It's always referred to as. And when St. Peter responds with, why is he taking so long to return? Right. With all the suffering and all the evil in the world, St. Peter's answer is that the God is being patient and giving time, the maximal time for repentance. But the world has reached a point and can and will reach a point again where no one's interested in that opportunity anymore. Right. And that's when the end will come because there's no point in delaying it at that point. But I think it's important that people understand that the way salvation, even in Christian circles gets talked about a lot, is it's salvation from the world. Right. And. And I don't want someone to take from this conversation that, oh, okay, well, you know, I could die and go to heaven and get away from all this. Yeah. The world's.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

Going to hell and the great escape. But the salvation begins here. Right. You can be saved from that. Now that sort of spectrum of sin we talked about. Right. You don't have to ride it all the way to the end. You can be set free from it at any point. Right. That slavery in this world, this is the purpose of Christ's church. Right. Is to offer the other answer. Right. The other way. The way toward becoming. Toward becoming truly human. Being set free from that. Right. In this world and then. Right. Enjoying A world that's free from that, beyond this life in eternity. But both of those are included in. In what salvation is and what's on offer.

[Interviewer]

So, I mean, how does it make you feel personally, as you see the world moving in a way that's just more explicitly evil, in the leadership of the world becoming just sort of openly demonic?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Does that strike fear into you or

[Orthodox Priest]

not? It doesn't strike fear to me because I think. I think it's honest now. I don't think it's different. I think it's honest. I think it's revealed.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

Now. Right. Because I don't think any of this just suddenly restarted.

[Interviewer]

No.

[Orthodox Priest]

Like in 1968.

[Interviewer]

No.

[Orthodox Priest]

No. There is this sort of popular narrative that everything was beautiful from the end of World War II until about 1968, and that's just not true at all. And so it being now out there right now provides a number of opportunities for helping people. Right. I deal with actual individual people, individual lives every day. Right. In the church. And being confronted by the fact that spiritual evil is real can be the shock that brings someone to, oh, God is real. Yes. That salvation is something I need to find.

[Interviewer]

I think that's often the case.

[Orthodox Priest]

These patterns in my life aren't just bad habits that I could kick anytime I want, but there's something going on in my life that I need to be set for free from. Right. And that's going to require some things of me. Right. And require some changes and require some healing from God beyond myself. Right. And so there is this now opportunity here that when everybody sort of thought everything was okay and they were okay and everything was fine. Right. You had to try and convince somebody that there was a problem. You don't have to do that so much now.

[Interviewer]

No.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. And so. So I think there's an opportunity for a lot of people to help be helped to find freedom. Right. To find salvation, to transform their lives. So I, I choose to look at it that way. Right?

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Rather than the other.

[Interviewer]

I think that's the right way to look at it.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So what is your advice when someone comes to you in bondage? Like what. What is the process for being set free?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. So I, I think the. The very first part is you have to become part of something and submit yourself to something bigger than yourself. Right. So in my case, obviously, that's. That's the church. Right. Because again, you're not just an individual out there. Right. Your. Your brain is not just closed in this box and you're just doing your own Thing you're participating in these spiritual realities, whether you like to or not. Right. And so you have to submit yourself to something, to being transformed by something. And that involves becoming part of a community, sharing bonds with other people. That community brings accountability. It brings a change of life because you can't live a life in isolation. Aristotle said for someone to live alone, they have to be either a beast or a God.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

So, you know, you have to find this life in community. It's as I was talking about. You find this transformation through participating in what God is doing in the world. Well, God is loving someone. I have to be with that person and love them. Right. God is having compassion. I have to be with that person, have compassion for them and be kind for them. It's not something you can practice off by yourself. Definitely not something you could practice on the Internet. Right. But. And so you need to. You need to become a part of that. And then within that, you, you need to form spiritual relationships with. Within the Orthodox Church, the. We have the idea of spiritual fatherhood that's very important, where you have a person who you trust deeply. Right. Who you sort of open up and bury your soul to. Right. Who you. Someone other than yourself, who you say, this is what I think I should do. Am I right? Should I? Right. Where you can get feedback and have this ongoing relationship of guidance as you work through these things. Because this isn't a snap. It isn't. You say a prayer. It isn't even. You get baptized, and now everything's great. This is a long process of, of working your way back down that, that road and then getting onto the right road and moving in a positive direction. But it's available to everyone, Right. If you're willing to. Right. Come and participate in it.

[Interviewer]

But it's not as simple as an altar call during a church service.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. And. And we know that. Right. That's why I, I had. I have a friend who was a Assemblies of God pastor, and I asked him once, did you write the day you got saved the day in your. In front of your Bible? He said, oh, yeah, I wrote all of them. Because you go forward and then he'd go back to his life and be, oh, I don't think that took. Let me go do it. Right. And so it is this ongoing thing. Right. It is. Adam was created to begin, Right. This life of growth toward God. Right. That. That doesn't just happen throughout this life, but stretches on into eternity because God's infinite. So we're not going to get to the point where, you know, now I know everything about God now. Right. It's, it's sharing in God's life forever.

[Interviewer]

Has there ever been any other society at scale that didn't put God at the center or gods at the center, put its religious practice at the center of its civilization?

[Orthodox Priest]

No, no. It always happens.

[Interviewer]

Right, right.

[Orthodox Priest]

So we've recently covered that with a veneer of science. Oh, no, we're insisting this isn't a religion, it's a secular ideology.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Orthodox Priest]

You know, but there's, you know, there's an ideology, there's ritual activity, there are sacred texts, there are all the things religions have. Right. You know, that's.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, so that's never happened. But, but has there ever been a society that was as dishonest about it as ours?

[Orthodox Priest]

No, no, I think that's the, there's a lot of spiritual delusion and self delusion and that comes out of there. There was a move in the, the 18th and 19th centuries where sort of deliberately spiritual iconography, religious iconography, religious symbols and practices were taken over by the state. I noticed happened in Europe first. I mean, you could go to the Capitol, see the, the deification of George Washington and. Yeah. Sort of all of these things, all

[Interviewer]

the weird Masonic symbols and our currency,

[Orthodox Priest]

like what is that being attributed to this political stuff. Right. And sort of the formation of, you know, and we're not going to be sola scriptura Protestants talking about the original text. We're going to be all about the Constitution and what did the framers have in mind. We're just going to switch this all over into the political realm. And then as politics has kind of devolved, it's become even more sort of ephemeral than that. Right. And so we're not willing to admit that our rituals are rituals. We're not willing to admit, you know, the way most people talk about the economy is essentially the way ancient people would talk about a God. What do you mean,

[Interviewer]

flesh that out. That's fascinating.

[Orthodox Priest]

The economy makes decisions. The economy favors this group over that group. We need to do this and that to sort of appease the economy. Right. Let's make sacrifices. Right. So there are all these, you know, we don't call it mammon, you know, but it's the same kind of, it's fulfilling the same kind of, the same kind of idea. Right. And other war. Right. You don't call it Aries. We don't talk about a war God. Right. But we talk about national events that needs to be fed. It needs to be supplied with sacrifices. Need to be made. And so it's all the same ways of thinking because they're built into what it means to be human.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

And so if you remove overt religion, you just get covert religion, which is.

[Interviewer]

But always a species of what the Canaanites practiced and what the Maya's practice.

[Orthodox Priest]

It amounts to the same thing. It's paganism.

[Interviewer]

It's human sacrifice once again, whether it's abortion or war or whatever, it's killing people in order to get peace and prosperity and power.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right, right.

[Interviewer]

What do you, I mean, how should Christians approach that?

[Orthodox Priest]

Well, it's, it's.

[Interviewer]

A lot of them seem to ratify it. A lot of the leaders seem to be like, yeah, no, this is a good thing, unfortunately.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yes, yeah, that's. And a lot of religion has been secularized. It's a bizarre phrase. Right. But in the United States, it kind of has. I mean, it started with the more leftward leaning religious bodies.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Becoming sort of just overtly political and oriented toward this world. But it has now gradually come to include a lot of the more right word leaning religious bodies where sort of the, especially the eschatology of Christianity, the ultimate goal of blessedness is removed from sharing in the life of God himself or the life of the world to come. And it's made very. This worldly. Right. So it's prosperity now. Yes, right. And whether it's a mainline liberal Protestant denomination saying prosperity now in the sense of we need to help the poor and raise their standard of living, or whether it's because that's what the gospel is. Right. Or it's a prosperity preacher. Right. In a more socially conservative church saying, you know, give your seed and you know, you'll get back 10 times, you know, the money and you'll have all, all this. Well, this. Right. It's taking that and moving it all. Don't build up treasures in heaven, build them up here on earth. That's sort of the goal. Right. And that is secularization in the true sense. Right. The first sort of thinker to talk about the seculum was St. Augustine in city of God. And he was using that City of God famously, where the title comes from. He's living at the time of the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, which from their perspective was the end of the world. Yes, certainly the end of the world as they knew it. Right. And saying him saying, so yes, there is this city of man, right. There is this empire, there are these kings, there is this government. There's also the City of God and the City of God exists eternally and is steadfast. Right. And he described what was going on outside as the secular. The secularum. Right. Which included in it's not just the world, but also the idea of an age, as in it's constantly shifting. Right. There's sort of this cyclical pattern. Nations rise and fall, all these things happen. There's a sort of churn.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Orthodox Priest]

But that's outside of the place where God is. And so a lot of these formerly sort of overtly religious movements have just become engaged in that cycle. And you can watch them. It's like they're virtually in the news cycle now, right. In terms of what they're quote, unquote preaching. Right. Coming out and weighing in on. It's just sort of whatever's going on in the news cycle right now. Right. And this constant sort of churn and they're making these prophecies that don't come true and. Oh, well, don't worry about that. Here's the next one. And it just, you know, continues in this, in this never ending thing. But it's not, it's divorced from the actual spiritual reality of who God is, who Christ is. Right. What God is doing in the world. Those questions aren't even asked. Right. It's more about asking God to bless what I'm doing in the world or just asserting that God is blessing and is behind what I'm doing in the world.

[Interviewer]

What do you think of that?

[Orthodox Priest]

Well, there's a famous quote from Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War where a reporter asked him if he thought God was on the side of the Union. And he said the question isn't whether God's on our side, the question is whether we're on God's.

[Interviewer]

Exactly.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. And that's the core question. Right. The core question that anybody who's going to call themselves a Christian should be asking is what is God doing in the world right now? Where is he active in the world right now? I need to get on board with that. I need to become a part of that. Not what do I want, what do I think should happen? And I'm going to try and get, you know, a whole bunch of people to try and pray and convince God to do, you know, or I'm going to claim and assert that God is going to do what I think he should do. Right. That's, that's not only kind of a gross inversion of Christianity, but it's essentially the way ancient magic and sorcery worked, really. Right. That's what separates sort of your. When you're talking about ancient religion. Right. In the, in the pagan world, where you're talking about the Greco Roman world or the ancient near east, the, the division between magic and just sort of pagan religion. Right. Is that in pagan religion they thought that the, the gods, the spirits they were worshiping sort of remained free. So you could make a sacrifice, you make an offering to them, you try to cajole them into doing what you want. Yes, but they could say no. They could decide, they don't favor you. Right. You read the Iliad. The gods could just decide to switch sides in the middle of the war, remain free with magic. The idea of ritual magic is that you get, by doing the ritual in the correct way, saying the correct things, doing the correct things, you get the spiritual entity to do, you kind of compel it or command it to do what you want it to do.

[Interviewer]

That makes you God. God of God of those.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right.

[Interviewer]

Demons.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. And so even when someone identifies as a Christian, if they're out there trying to say, well, if you do xyz, right. If we get X number of people praying, if we do, then God will. That's essentially magic. Right. The, the, the whole idea of Christian prayer and worship and the Christian life is that God is transforming me.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

Not that I'm changing God or getting God to change it. Be different. Right. Or do something he wouldn't do otherwise.

[Interviewer]

Bossing God around.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

So how much genuine Christian practice do you see?

[Orthodox Priest]

I mean, I don't want to be mean. That's, I, I, No, I think on, on if you go to the level of the average person, the average Christian person, regardless of what denomination, what church, what group they identify with. Right. Or are part of, or where they go on a Sunday morning. Right. I think the average Christian person is trying to follow Christ as best they know how.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Sometimes they're wrong. Right. We could get things wrong. We get. Right. They're misled, they've been lied to by leaders. Right. All that happens. But in their heart and in their soul, that's what they're trying to do. So that level of Christian practice, there's a lot, I think. Right. Yeah. If we're looking top down, that's where things get a little more troubling. Right. In terms of, In terms of, in terms of leadership. Now, obviously, I'm, I mean, I can't sit here as an orthodox priest and pretend I'm not, you know, biased toward the Orthodox church.

[Interviewer]

Yes, of course. That's, you know, let me frame it differently. When was the last time how do you experience God, like actual God's work day to day?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. Well, so there's both within the services of the church. Right. Because I see God very much working in that way, and it's not just the actual worship service, but the time spent afterward in fellowship together, the life of the community. Right. I see that continuously. Right. I also. I mean, I hear people's confessions, and confession is done a little differently in the Orthodox Church than the Roman Catholic Church because we have this, as I said, spiritual fatherhood tradition. And so I've seen people come through and come back from some really difficult and terrible things.

[Interviewer]

Like what?

[Orthodox Priest]

Well, I mean, I. I don't want to divulge anything.

[Interviewer]

No, I mean, not. Yeah. But, I mean, specifics. No names. But like, what kind of things?

[Orthodox Priest]

You're talking about people who have had the kind of traumatic childhoods that you see as the origin of a villain in a movie. Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Like, for real.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah, yeah. That. You know, and. And people who have gone down really dark roads of addiction and violence and. And come back from committing violence from that. Yeah. And. And marriages being saved. Right. After things that should have destroyed them.

[Interviewer]

You've seen that.

[Orthodox Priest]

You think. Yeah. And so that all happens. Right. It really does.

[Interviewer]

You've seen marriages totally blown up that are saved.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yes, yes. And it takes time and it takes a lot of work. Both of the people have to be on board. But. But there is healing there on offer from God. Part of the. Part of the failure of a lot of Christianity broadly, is that an environment has been created, I think, unintentionally, where people are afraid to open up and even talk about things like that. Yeah. With anyone. It's sort of. We go to church on Sunday, we put on our Sunday best, We all act like everything's fine when it's definitely not fine. And, you know, this is why AA

[Interviewer]

meetings are so wonderful, because there's no pretense like that.

[Orthodox Priest]

And I say to people about confession because especially if they've come into the Orthodox Church or they're from a background that doesn't do it. Yeah. There's a lot of trepidation. And what is this? And I'm scared. And how can I tell you these things? And you're a priest, I respect you. I don't want you to know these things. Right. And I try and tell them. I'm like, each of us walks through life thinking we're the most disgusting, perverted, weird.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

You know, disturbed individual to ever walk the planet. Right. And if you're actually willing to Open up with other people about that. You find out that most of them are dealing with the same stuff.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

And struggling with the same things. And the power of opening up about that in a place that's designed to bring you healing. Right. When we say over and over again in the Orthodox Church that the church is a hospital, not a courtroom, it's not about finding who's guilty of what. Right. It's about helping people in various stages of woundedness, some of them almost dead. Right. Trying to help them find healing and restoration to life. There's incredible power to that, to just that honesty of telling someone finally. This thing that I've been hiding from everyone, even myself, when I had managed it for decades, saying that out loud. Right. Admitting it, and then talking about, okay, how are we going to work on this? How are we gonna make things right? How are we going to start moving toward. Toward healing?

[Interviewer]

And you've been restoration, a priest for almost 20 years. Have the kind of confessions you receive changed? Are the problems that people are struggling with different from what they were? And what are the. What are the common ones again? Without being.

[Orthodox Priest]

I mean, honestly, they've changed less than you'd think. But there's a pattern. When you hear confessions, usually the first six months to a year, you kind of get tested as a priest. Right. So you get a lot of like, oh, I was stuck in traffic and I cussed at the guy who, you know, cut me off. And it's like, I'm sure you did, but I'm also sure there's a lot more going on. We'll let it be. We'll let it be for now. Right. You get those. And so that's.

[Interviewer]

That's the confession, right?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. And it's sort of those kind of things.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

You know, oh, I was late for work and I made up a story, you know, those kind of things. But they're testing, right? They're seeing if it's safe. Yes. Right. They're pushing the limits.

[Interviewer]

And then as I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. And then at a certain point. Right. The real stuff comes out. Sometimes with tears.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

Sometimes with people you'd never expect to see tears from. Oh. And it sort of finally unloads. And a lot of it is the same stuff a lot of people are now. It takes sort of different forms. Like. So, for example, sexual sin used to be a lot more about actually doing things with other people. Right, Right. And now a lot of it is distortions and things going on due to the Internet. Pornography on the Internet and that kind of thing. And so. And so that's changed that.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

You've got people that. This is one of the scariest statistics. The average age at which a person is first exposed to hardcore pornography on the Internet in the United States today is eight.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I don't know why. No one's in prison for that.

[Orthodox Priest]

It's. Yeah. So. Well, there's too much money being made off pornography.

[Interviewer]

I'm aware. Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

That's. And again, the economy is kind of God now. Right.

[Interviewer]

Yeah,

[Orthodox Priest]

But.

[Interviewer]

So.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah, so that's. Right. And dealing with that has to be dealt with in a different way. That's not. I went too far with my girlfriend on a Friday night. Right. There's. That. That's got to be unwound in a different way.

[Interviewer]

People sense intuitively. Do you think that there's something disordered and bad about porn, or is it something that they learn at your church and they're like, oh, I guess it was bad?

[Orthodox Priest]

No, they know. They. They know a lot of people who are dealing with sexual sin and that kind of thing. They will come and when they're ready to talk about it, will say, yeah, I first saw pornography at some absurdly young age.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

And. And usually there's an escalation pattern with it.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Starts out being sort of quote, unquote, normal pornography. Not that pornography is normal, but.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

And then moves into darker and darker places, more and more dysfunctional places. But, yeah, they can. They generally have an idea of that. But that. That is. That is breaking a lot of. A lot of people. Really?

[Interviewer]

You see that a lot.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah, yeah. And that is a lot of people's issues with sexuality, with gender identity. A lot of it is traceable back to some of that early exposure to really that material.

[Interviewer]

I believe it.

[Orthodox Priest]

And it creates this confusion.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Because compulsion. Yeah. And people's first sexual experiences being divorced from their own body.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. Causes this distortion. Right. That. That takes a lot to unwind. And. And part of the unwinding of that is having a community. Right. Where they're spending time as themselves, Right. In their own actual body, talking to other people who are sitting there in front of them. I mean, it sounds absurd, but.

[Interviewer]

No, it doesn't.

[Orthodox Priest]

For. Generate, for. For. For zoomers, that's a rare experience. Now, a lot of them socialize completely on the Internet. The people they identify as their closest friends are people they only know online.

[Interviewer]

Man.

[Orthodox Priest]

They have boyfriends and girlfriends who they've never met in person. Very common gen alpha. It's Even more common. And so helping them get out of that and into a community of actual people who care about them and who are interacting with them in the real world is a huge first step in sort of bringing people back to reality.

[Interviewer]

Do you find that pornography is a bigger problem than addiction? More common?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. I mean, there's an addictive element too, Right?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I meant. Yeah, I guess.

[Orthodox Priest]

But yes.

[Interviewer]

Then drugs or alcohol.

[Orthodox Priest]

Then drugs or alcohol, yes.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Is it interesting? So that's a huge part of your ministry. It sounds like you don't hear people talk about it very often.

[Orthodox Priest]

It's all men and most women.

[Interviewer]

Most women, yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

Men don't think that. But

[Interviewer]

are you ever shocked, I mean, by this part of your job? Do you ever hear things that shock you?

[Orthodox Priest]

So I. I can't say I've never heard something that shocked me, but when I was shocked, it was more the particular person.

[Interviewer]

Right, right.

[Orthodox Priest]

Part of. Part of what you have to do, I think, as a priest. Part of what, honestly, I think we all ultimately have to do this, is we have to become deeply acquainted with the worst parts of ourselves.

[Interviewer]

Yes, I agree with that. Yes.

[Orthodox Priest]

And if you're really acquainted with that and you really know what you are capable of in a negative way, given the right or wrong circumstances, you can understand more. Right. And you don't get that shock reaction. My. My. My dad told me the story that stuck with me. When he was a kid, he was watching the footage of the Nuremberg trials and he asked my grandfather, you know, what do you think of these horrible things these people did? What do you think of this? And my grandfather said, there but for the grace of God go I am. And usually people say that to mean like, oh, some accident.

[Interviewer]

Right? Yeah, yeah.

[Orthodox Priest]

Unfortunate thing happened to someone. Oh, God preserved me.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Car crash.

[Orthodox Priest]

But he meant without God's grace, I could have done all those things.

[Interviewer]

100.

[Orthodox Priest]

I could have gone down that same road. Right. And really coming to terms with that then, I think is a prerequisite not only for our own repentance. Right. And our own getting free of that, but being able to help others, you know, and being able to hear where they're coming from. Right. And understand how they ended up there and trying to help them, give them the hand up out of the ditch.

[Interviewer]

Amazing. Last question, which is totally unrelated, but it just seems like you might know the answer. There's this. And most people will not be interested in this, but there's this really interesting moment in the Gospel of Matthew where Jesus is talking about sin and how it can all be forgiven. But the one sin that can't be forgiven as sins against the Holy Spirit.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

[Interviewer]

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. What does that mean?

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah. So what happened just before that was that Christ was working miracles and teaching and healing, and a certain group of his opponents among the Jewish religious leadership accused him of being demon possessed.

[Interviewer]

Correct.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. Said that the Spirit by which he was doing this was actually one of the names for baal. Right.

[Interviewer]

Was actually Bail's bub or whatever.

[Orthodox Priest]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And so he was casting out demons with demons.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. And so that's why it's blasphemy, the Holy Spirit is because they're calling the Spirit of God a demonic spirit.

[Interviewer]

Yep.

[Orthodox Priest]

Right. And so if you're not willing to accept and submit yourself to God and to his Spirit and what he's doing in the world, you. You can't be forgiven. You can't. You can't be healed. Right. They were rejecting, rather than seeing what God was doing in the world, which was Christ himself. Right. And what he was doing in the world, rather than seeing that and trying to get on board with that and be healed from their sin, they were rejecting it. So if you, if you reject Christ, if you reject God's provision. Right.

[Interviewer]

For.

[Orthodox Priest]

For our sin and our wickedness, then you. You can't be healed from by definition. Right. But. Yeah, definitionally, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Father, thank you for that. That was fascinating. Yeah. And great.

[Orthodox Priest]

Thank you for having me. Thanks.