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Tucker on Trump’s Desecration of Easter and a Warning to Christians Everywhere
02:20:08
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Tucker
Millions of American Christians voted for Donald Trump when he ran for president in
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Nathan
the last election, and millions more Christians
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Tucker
around the world rooted for him to win. Many still do root for Donald Trump. Now, why is that? Because of his personal piety?
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Nathan
Well, of course not. Trump, to his credit, has never claimed
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Tucker
to be personally pious, especially religious in any sense. They voted for him and they still support him because he seemed like a protector. He seemed like someone who might save them from the growing and highly aggressive agnosticism, if not atheism, of, say, the technology class or the bureaucratic class, godless nations, nations of other religions that oppose us. Donald Trump seemed like someone who would protect Christians from that, who was committed
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Nathan
to the free exercise of religion in
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Tucker
this country and who was. Was also committed to ending abortion. Whether or not he himself opposed abortion, whether he was pro life in any meaningful sense, didn't seem to matter. He would appoint justices that opposed abortion,
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Nathan
that thought Roe v. Wade was unconstitutional. He did that.
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Tucker
And that he would basically carry the flag for their issues and that he was sympathetic to them, and they support him on that basis. Can they still support him? That's the question. And that's a question Christians should have begun to ask themselves on January 4th of this year. And that was the day that the President announced the capture, the arrest of the President of Venezuela, Nicolas Maduro, who was, no question an anti American leader and a socialist, not someone most Americans liked or really had cause to like. So the problem was not necessarily that Trump was against an anti American leader. In fact, that was a benefit in the eyes of most of his voters. The problem was why we did it and why the President told us he did it. And that was for the oil. So in the days before that operation, in early January, the President tweeted out, sent out on his Truth Social account, and also said in public, we're doing this because we want the oil, because that oil belongs to the United States. He never explained how exactly the United States would own the natural resources of a foreign country. Apparently, American oil companies helped develop the
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Nathan
oil fields in Venezuela.
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Tucker
Therefore, we own the oil. That was the idea, and they stole it from us. But there was no real effort to explain how that works, how that makes any sense at all. Instead, you had the President of the United States say, we need the oil. Oil's really important. True and true. Therefore, we're going to take it. And therefore, apparently we did. In the days after that operation, the successful removal of the President of the country and the installation of his Vice president, Delsey Rodriguez, as President Our President Donald Trump, held a widely publicized on camera meeting with the heads of American oil companies and talked through how we're going to split up the natural resources of Venezuela and why this is great for America. So why should Christians have paused at exactly that moment and asked, can I still support this? Is this what I voted for? Is this what I want? Is this acceptable? And the reason is really simple, because Trump at that moment revealed that the motive was taking something that we wanted. And that's not acceptable for Christians. In fact, that's not acceptable for Americans or any civilized people, because taking other people's stuff by force cannot be allowed. In fact, preventing that is the basis of our legal code. If there's one thing that every person knows, that is in a civilized country, you can't steal without penalty. It's not allowed. That doesn't belong to you. You can't shoplift, you can't rob banks, you can't embezzle, you can't invade countries to steal their stuff, because they're all varieties of the same theme, which is theft. And theft is wrong. It's wrong under the American legal code, but it's also wrong under the Christian legal code. Theft is wrong spelled out really clearly. It's also intuitive. And here was the president saying, we're just stealing this because we can. Well, as a practical matter, that's quite a thing to say out loud, given that we know from history that the things you do will be done unto you. Once you set a standard, you will have to live by that standard, write a law, you'll be judged by that law. So if the new law is, I can take it because I want it and I have more power than you, at some point we can rest assured the tables will be turned and the things that we want and cherish and have earned and that we own will be taken from us by force. At the moment when some other power has more force than we do, it's really simple. Sometimes called the law of the jungle, and it may be the law of nature, but people don't want to live under that law because it is a
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Nathan
brutal and unforgiving law. So they create higher laws, or they
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Tucker
appeal to the highest law of all, which is God's law, which prohibits that. So this was a profound moment in American history, probably in the history of the modern world, where the most powerful nation said, if we want it, we'll take it. No one's ever said that before. Now they've done it under the guise of ideology. They've made up stories to hide the fact they're doing it, but to say you're doing it implicates everybody else in the crime. You can't say you didn't know. Your president just told you on television. We took out their president because we want his oil. And at that point point, you're an accessory to the crime, whether you want to be or not. And it's at that point that a lot of people should have spoken up and said, I'm out. Not that I hate Trump or don't like his entire program. Lots of things about it I love, I'm grateful. I'd maybe vote for him again, but I can't support theft because it's immoral. But they didn't. Maybe some did, but certainly the leaders of the American Christian churches, by and large, said absolutely nothing. And maybe because they said nothing, this accelerated. These are the same people sort of didn't notice somehow, that on Inauguration Day, the president did not take his oath of office with his hand on the Bible. His wife stood next to him holding it. I was about 15ft away and saw it. But he did not put his hand on the Bible. And that should have been maybe a clue that we need to pause and think about. What is this? Why wouldn't you put your hand on the Bible? If you don't believe in the Bible, you think it's just a book, there's no cost to you to putting your hand on it. Just kind of following the protocol, going along with the tradition. All presidents do it. Why aren't you doing it? And you're not doing it intentionally. You're choosing not to put your hand on the Bible. When you take that oath, that suggests not that you don't believe it's real. Because if you didn't believe it was real, why would you care? You'd put on the costume and take it off. It doesn't matter. That suggests you know it is real and you're rejecting it intentionally. You know what you're doing and you're doing it anyway. But nobody asks questions about that either. Seemed kind of inappropriate, given the celebration then in progress, to ask, why wouldn't you put your hand on the Bible when you take the oath of office to lead our nation? But pretty much nobody did. I didn't. I'll admit that I saw it and didn't say one word. Bothered me ever since. But right around January 4, it became clear that maybe he didn't put his hand on the Bible because he affirmatively rejects what's inside that book and what's Inside that book are limits on human behavior. Because if there's one theme that spans all 66 books in the Christian Bible, it's that you are not God. And you cannot assume his powers because you don't have them. You may convince yourself you have them, you may want them, you may have been promised them, but in the end,
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Nathan
they're not yours and you'll never have them. And you can only destroy yourself and the people around you by pretending that you do.
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Tucker
That is the consistent message that spans
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Nathan
from Genesis to Revelation.
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Tucker
And people who ignore that law are punished, just like people who ignore gravity or freezing temperatures are punished, because these
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Nathan
are laws that were not created by people. They supersede people.
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Tucker
But on January 4, when the President of the United States told us he was stealing, that our country was stealing something that didn't belong to us, people should have piped up and said something, but they didn't. And that got us all the way to yesterday, which was Easter Sunday. Easter Sunday is not just a holy day on the Christian calendar. It is the center of the Christian calendar, is the holiest day in Christian life. Because the day that Christians remember the whole point of their religion, which is not that Jesus was killed, but that
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Nathan
he rose from the dead, that he
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Tucker
beat death, unique in history. And this is the day that Christians celebrate his resurrection. And in this country, that celebration has
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Nathan
been watered down effectively to candy and Easter bunnies.
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Tucker
But globally, and certainly historically, Easter is the focus. It's preceded by Holy week and Lent, 40 days of self denial and prayer, all leading up to yesterday Easter morning. And for faithful Christians, it is still the biggest day of the year. And it's a day of joy. The thing every person fears most is death. We're born fearing it because we're born knowing it's coming. And Christianity, unique among religions, promises victory over it. And Jesus resurrection is proof that God
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Nathan
can beat death because only God creates life.
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Tucker
And so the morning of Easter is a uniquely gentleman, joyful and peaceful moment. And yet that peace yesterday was shattered. That's not an overstatement. It was shattered for many observant Christians by a statement that the President of the United States put out at 8:03am Eastern Time on Easter morning.
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Nathan
That said this, and we're going to read it in its entirety.
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Tucker
Not in outrage or self righteousness, but honestly, in horror. Tuesday will be Power plant day and bridge Day all wrapped up in one in Iran. There will be nothing like it. Three exclamation points. Open the fucking straight, you crazy bastards, or you'll Be living in hell. Just watch. All caps. Praise be to Allah. President Donald J. Trump. Now, a lot of people reading that, imagined, of course, this can't be real. Did the president, United States really just write that? And it is real. It is maybe the most real thing this president has ever done, and also the most revealing on every level. It is vile on every level. It begins with a promise to use the US Military, our military, to destroy civilian infrastructure in another country, which is to say to commit a war crime, a moral crime, against the people of the country whose welfare, by the way, was one of the reasons we supposedly went into this war in the first place. They're being killed by their government. We have to rescue them. And now here's our president not even a month and a half into the conflict, which we are not winning, by the way, because the straits for Hormuz are not open. There's one way to keep track. That's the measurement saying that we're going to use our military to kill the civilians of this country who didn't choose war. They got nothing to do with it. They're like civilians everywhere. Blow up their bridges. Bridges on military bases. No, no, no. Just bridges. Bridges that people cross every day to go to school and work and to worship and, yes, church, because there are over a million Christians in Iran. This is their Easter, too. And power plants. Not the power plants attached to missile factories, okay. But civilian power plants in a country of almost 100 million people. What happens when a modern country and a country that has a nuclear program, as a modern country, sorry, Iran is a modern country. What happens when it loses power? Well, people die. Babies connected to incubators die. People in hospitals die. And those are the first level effects. And then people begin to starve. And then you have refugee crises. People leave the cities looking for food. And, yes, they move into other countries in the region, in Europe, in the United States, you cause chaos and death, mass suffering and death when you do that, and we have done that, we have intentionally bombed civilian infrastructure in Iran. It's totally unacceptable. Not under the phony laws of some international body, but under moral law, God's law, killing non combatants, people who did nothing wrong, who didn't choose this war, we're just people created by God. That is immoral. That will never be moral. That can never be justified. That is always wrong. It can be expedient. We need to do this. It doesn't mean that's right. It's the most wrong thing. And we should always remember that what we do will be Done to us. Live by the destruction of civilian infrastructure, live by the killing of children, the bombing of elementary schools and colleges, and you will die and your children will die by those same things. That's just a fact. That's never not been true. We don't want it to be true. It's the last thing we want to be true. But it is nonetheless true. And everyone knows that. On an animal level, you can feel that that's true. Ooh, shouldn't do that. You be punished for it in this life or the next, or maybe both. For the President to say that and not bother to tell us, oh, it was an accident. We did this. Well, one, it makes you reassess the bombing of the girls school attached to the IRGC naval base where the children of Iranian military officers were incinerated in a bombing, not one, but two, a double tap. Every person has assumed that was a mistake. Now, no American could ever believe the US government would do that on purpose. I still don't believe it. But after this, you have to kind of wonder, how did that happen? Was it bad? Targeting coordinates given to us, we hope by Israel, another country? Maybe it wasn't. Who knows at this point, for the President to call for that, it's worth stopping and saying, no, this is not acceptable under any circumstances. You haven't justified it. You couldn't justify it. And it can't be done in our name. And the point, of course, is to get the Iranians to open the Strait of Hormuz. Well, no sane person thinks that's going to work. At which point you have to ask, why would we do it anyway? Well, there are a bunch of possible reasons, but the darkest of all is, is for the sake of doing it, for the sake of killing, for the sake of exercising the most obvious form of power, which is extinguishing life. That's why we're doing it. The thrill is in the killing. The power is in the killing. The exertion of force is the point. You don't want to think that, but after a message like this, what could possibly be the reason? There's nobody who thinks that. If we do this, and we pray we don't, for our sake, as well as the sake of non combatant innocent Iranians, nobody thinks this is going to work. But then the tweet continues. Pardon me, the ironically named truth continues. There will be nothing like it. Open the effing strait. How dare you speak that way on
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Nathan
Easter morning to the country.
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Tucker
Who do you think you are? You're tweeting out the F word. On Easter morning, you'll be living in hell, as if hell is a place. Hell is a condition, and this is an example of that condition. Just watch. Praise be to Allah. So, obviously you're mocking the religion of Iran. Okay, if you seek a religious war, that's a good idea. But by the way, no decent person mocks other people's religions. You may have a problem with the theology. Presumably you do if it's not your religion, and you can explain what that is. But to mock other people's faith is to mock the idea of faith itself. And we should never mock that, because at its core is the acknowledgment that we are not in charge of the universe. We did not build it. We won't be here at the end of it. We can destroy life. We cannot create it because we are not God. The message of all faith at the biggest picture level is the message in our Bible, which is, you are not God. And only if you think you are, do you talk this way. But it is not just mockery of Islam. And no president should mock Islam. That's not your job. This is not a theocracy. We don't go to war with other theocracies to find out which theocracy is more effective. We are not a theocracy, and God willing, we never will be, because theocracies corrupt the religion. No, this is a mockery not just of Islam. It's a mockery of Christianity. To send out a tweet with the F word on Easter morning promising the murder of civilians and then saying praise be to Allah without explaining any of it. You are mocking me and every other Christian because we're Christians. Oh, I get it. We can't support that. Under no circumstances can we support that doesn't mean you have to hate Trump or take the opposite position on every issue from Trump. You shouldn't. A lot of his positions are the right positions, but you cannot support that. That is evil. That is an intentional desecration of beauty and truth, which is the definition of evil. And you have to ask, where does evil lead? If the core point of evil is to destroy, which it is God creates, Satan destroys. It's dualism. When you see something of beauty being created, when you hear the truth being spoken, you are witnessing a manifestation of God's power. And when you see the opposite, you're witnessing the opposite. So where does this lead? Well, on a practical level and a spiritual level, they converge in the same place, which is the use of weapons of mass destruction. So On a practical level, on a strategic level, if you're at the Pentagon gaming this out, like how does this work? The President of the United States keeps laying down markers. You can't go past next Tuesday at 2pm or whatever. You must open the strait or else you'll be living in hell. As if we're not there already. At a certain point, what we're doing is revealing that we've exhausted conventional power. If there's some tricky way to open the Strait of Hormuz by air, probably would have done it by now. Because we are on a path to plunge the world into global depression and famine. And that's not hair on fire panicanism, that's math. 30% of the world's fertilizer, 20% of its energy. Yeah, that's a global depression and famine. What happens to Africa? A billion and a half sub Saharan Africans without enough fertilizer. Well, a lot of them will be living in the United States. That's just gonna happen. It's right across the Atlantic Ocean.
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Nathan
Check a map.
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Tucker
So getting the straight open is the essence of the mission. It is the strategic goal, by the way, not to be bitter. It was open on February 27 and had been since there were pirates roaming the strait. For modern history it had been open. Now it's closed because of this war. Okay, so there's that. But leave that aside. Okay, that was then. How do we get it open? Conventional airstrikes will not open the strait for very obvious reasons. You can close it with mines. So if you reach the end of your conventional power, where does that leave you? Oh, with non conventional power. What's that? A euphemism for nuclear weapons. And the effects of that hardly need to be explained. Well, they can't be fully known because modern nuclear weapons have never been used. But you can just draw obvious conclusions. Like life in Iran. Not possible. So you wipe out a country of 92 million people. What about directly across the Persian Gulf? What about the seven other countries, all of them allies of the United States? The biggest oil producing countries in the world? Could you live there? What about the hundred odd million people who live in those countries? Maybe not possible for them either. Would a nuclear strike be followed by peace? Probably not. The US isn't the only country in the world with nuclear weapons. You could have a global nuclear war. That's why we haven't used nuclear weapons in 80 years. No one has. Because you don't know where it goes from there. This is insane, okay? This is insane. It's hard to believe you even need to say this out loud. Oh, but you do. Because all things being equal, that's where we're heading. And how do we know that? Well, there are a million signs, but the most obvious is the dumbest neocons in Trump's orbit are saying it out loud. Now, in some cases, you don't even want to mention their names because these are not decision makers. These people are very much like Jeffrey Epstein. They're not actually the evil mastermind. Jeffrey Epstein's kind of an idiot. He's an employee, obviously. He's a communications hub. He's to get the message out to your people. And it's the same with America's most prominent neocons. They're not making policy. They don't understand anything. They don't have huge audiences. They have no organic power. They're messengers and flack takers. They're the ones who get the abuse for the policies of others. Put some lunatic on tv, everyone can hate him. But is he coming up with the plan? No, of course not. He's got a weekend show on Fox, but it's useful to watch what he says. In fact, the President of the United States himself has said this. Watch Mark Levin on Saturday night. You think Trump is dumb? You think he's doing this to juice Mark Levin's ratings? No, it's not possible to increase the ratings of someone nobody wants to watch. The point is to send a message. That's not a conspiracy theory. It's true. Levin's show, written probably not by Levin, which has almost no viewers, has been a place where the future is revealed in its broadest outline. It's a place to test ideas. It's a place to announce obliquely what's going to happen. And his most recent show should get you sitting bolt upright in your chair. And yes, this ran this weekend. Easter weekend, as if the defiling of beauty couldn't be more obvious. Easter week. Could you pick another weekend to give the finger to Christianity other than Easter weekend? Apparently not. In fact, of course you couldn't. That's the point. Do it on Easter. Anyone who will accept this will accept any humiliation. In any case, here's what Mark Levin said on his Easter weekend show about what we ought to do next in Iran. We ought to watch.
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Mark Levin
And the casualty numbers, as horrible as any casualty is, need some context? Let's look at World War II, the
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Tucker
Battle of the Bulge.
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Mark Levin
80,000 to 90,000 plus casualties, deaths and injuries and so forth. Nearly 10% of all the casualties in World War II happened at the Battle of the Bulge near the end of the war. The Battle of Okinawa. 50,000 plus casualties, over 12,000. Nearly 13,000 killed on that island, which is what convinced Truman that we would lose a million men if we didn't drop the atomic bombs that we did. So this is a war or a peace mission to stop nuclear weapons that can blow away millions of Americans every bit as important as World War II. This is a crucially important military operation. War, call it what you want, peace mission. And we ought to be celebrating the success of our military, unifying around our military and our commander in chief and urging them to complete the task so our country is safe from nuclear weapons by insane, suicidal primitives from the seventh century.
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Tucker
Did you catch that? Did you make it through the whole clip? It's not easy. It's not easy. But embedded in there, and that's why
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Nathan
we prefer a transcript over the actual
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Tucker
audio, embedded in there is something you need to know. It's an argument that is being test driven and since no one to our knowledge has pushed back against it, may be in full operation now. It's an argument for nuclear weapons against Iran. Here's to restate, in case you couldn't make it through the accent, here's what he said. Nearly 10% of all casualties in the Second World War happened at the Battle of the Bulge, which of course at the end of the war, the battle of Okinawa, 50,000 casualties, nearly 13,000 killed on that, which is what convinced Truman, Harry Truman, the then president, 1945, we'd lose a million men if we didn't drop the atomic bombs that we did. Did you hear that? That's Mark Levin's counsel to our sitting President, Donald Trump. Right now you are looking at a choice between the catastrophic loss of your troops in a ground war or the use of nuclear weapons, which in a sense, if you think about it, just think about it for a second, is actually an act of peace. It's an act of peace. The most humane thing you could do is to end this now with nuclear weapons. That's the case Mark Levin is making to the President, who just last week recommended that all Americans watch Mark Levin's show. Ok, this is not like crazy dot connecting here. This is one to one. This is really obvious where we're moving. And again, we're moving toward the use of weapons of indiscriminate mass destruction, possibly nuclear weapons, but non conventional weapons, not bombs dropped from the air, missiles launched from launchers, but the use of weapons that have never been used in war, ever. And the argument is the same argument that you heard in 1945, or didn't
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Nathan
hear, by the way, if you're an American civilian.
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Tucker
No one ever cuts you in on this. Thank Kevin, from Mark Levin saying it out loud so the rest of us can at least follow along and know what we're in for and implicated in. But the argument that it's actually much more humane to kill tens, hundreds of thousands, millions of civilians than it is to like fight it out with the Marine Corps on the rocky shores of mainland Iran. That's the argument. But it's not just the argument that one guy in cable news is making. It is the logic of escalation in this war. Because in some sense Mark Levin is right. We are not going to open the straits with the United States marine Corps, the 82nd Airborne, or the Tier 1 operators that everyone on cable knows news seems to know so much about. The Tier one operators who, Tier one, just guys like some of the best guys actually in America could be killed in this. That's a better way to put it. It's a more real way to put it. They are not gonna open the strait. And so unless somebody puts the brakes on right away, we're gonna wind up in a place that we can't even imagine. Not just Iran, us and the rest of the world. And so that means, cuz this is obvious to anyone who's paying any attention that if you work in the White House, we in the US Military, now it's time to say no, absolutely not. And say it directly to the President. No. In case you're thinking about using some weapon of mass destruction against the population of Iran in whose name we liberated Iran. We killed their religious leader for their benefit. Do you remember that this was last month? Those people who are in direct contact with the President need to say no. All resigned. I'll do whatever I can do legally to stop this because this is insane. And if given the order, I'm not carrying it out. Figure out the codes on the football yourself because everything hangs in the balance right now. This is not hysteria. This is 100% real. And yet the people in this country, by and large, are asleep walking along. No. The future will be pretty much like today, maybe a little different. That's not the lesson of history. Things change fast and forever. There are pivot points where nothing is the same. And sometimes it's better, but mostly it's not. And this is one of those cases where it might not be at all better, but there's something else to think about. Something Maybe even more important than whether we have a nuclear war. What could be more important than that? Well, your soul. The way we worship God, whether we acknowledge God or not, that's more important ultimately than anything else. And you have to think through, like, could there be a spiritual component to what we're watching? Is it just a conventional escalation ladder in a badly thought out war with ill defined goals, and we just wound up in this really tough place where we face either humiliation on the one side or a nuclear launch on the other? Yeah, that's part of what it is. But could it be something bigger than that? Is it possible that what you're watching is a very stealthy yet incredibly effective attack on what, from a Christian perspective is the true faith belief in Jesus? Is that what really is under attack here? Maybe that's what's been under attack for a long time, maybe our whole lifetime. Maybe almost everything we see is an attack on that faith. The one faith that is always attacked, always and everywhere. For 2,000 years, many faiths have been attacked. Many religious people of different religions have been killed over the past 2,000 years. But there's been only one sustained effort to exterminate a faith, and that's the Christian faith. Could that be part of it? And is it possible that the President sees this not just in geostrategic terms, in military terms, in economic terms, got
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Nathan
open in the strait?
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Tucker
Okay, is it possible the President sees this in bigger terms, sees this as the fulfillment of something or the elevation to some higher office beyond President of the United States? That's entirely possible. And that's not an attack. But it's also not a guess because at every turn since the inauguration last January, there have been religious leaders on the scene telling us, telling us out loud. Most of us ignored it because we're just so secular, we just sort of ignore it. Got some sleazy Southern Baptist preacher who says, whatever for money?
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Nathan
Okay, got it.
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Tucker
We've ignored that this could actually be real. There's something going on here, and we shouldn't ignore that. We should always remember that just because we are a secular nation, have been overwhelmingly secular, maybe not coincidentally since we
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Nathan
dropped those atom bombs 80 years ago,
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Tucker
doesn't mean that we live in a world where everyone else is secular. And it definitely doesn't mean that the spiritual realm has been eliminated. That is not real. That the only things that matter are the things that we can see and hear and feel and taste and measure. Talk about fake, talk about a silly religion. That's the silly religion in Real life. In the life that every person lives, no matter what your religion or lack of it, there is a daily recurring experience of the transcendent. Things you cannot explain or see or touch or feel or taste or measure that is every bit as real, in fact, maybe determinative. Maybe the most important things in your life are the things you don't fully understand. All of us know that. And so when people start making reference to mystical religious principles that we don't understand, it doesn't mean that it's fake. They may be getting it wrong, but it doesn't mean there's not something real at the center of this. Of course there is. And only a civilization as bereft of spiritual language as ours wouldn't pick up on that immediately. What do you mean, praise be to Allah? What does that mean? Why are you setting this out on Easter morning? I mean, obviously it's designed to offend and degrade and defile.
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Nathan
Got it.
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Tucker
But is there something else going on here? One of the keys to this is the behavior of a woman called Paula White. And in a moment we're going to speak to a man who studied her, who went to her church yesterday, called Nathan Apfel. Fascinating conversation with him, which was just finished, where he tries to understand who are these people encouraging the President of the United States to see himself as a millennialist figure, as part of the eschatology of part of the end time story. Who are these people who are encouraging the rebuilding of the Third Temple in Jerusalem, whatever that is. What is this? Is this Christianity? Is it something else? And he knows a lot about it. And it's a fascinating conversation that I hope that you will watch. But at the center of this is the most unlikely person of all, a ludicrous figure, someone who's so absurd on one level that it's impossible to take this person seriously. That would be Paula White, the President's spiritual advisor, because she's so self evidently not worth taking seriously. Most people don't and they just tune it right out.
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Nathan
Who cares what she says?
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Tucker
What does it have to do with the economy, oil prices, gdp, reopening the strait?
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Nathan
I don't know.
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Tucker
Maybe you should listen a little more carefully. So here's one example. This is something that Paula White said about the President right before this recent escalation during Holy Week at the White House, a gathering to which many American
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Nathan
Protestant leaders, big ones, Franklin Graham included,
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Tucker
were invited and they gave a blessing to Donald Trump as he accelerated this war against the civilian population of Iran. Here's what she said about Donald Trump, watch this.
- [36:01]
Paula White
Jesus taught us so many lessons through his death, burial, and resurrection. He showed us great leadership. Great transformation requires great sacrifice. And, Mr. President, no one has paid the price like you have paid the price. It almost cost you your life. You were betrayed and arrested and falsely accused. It's a familiar pattern that our Lord and Savior showed us, but it didn't end there for him, and it didn't end there for you.
- [36:39]
Tucker
It's hard to believe that's real. That is so vile. It's such a sacrilege. Standing in front of American flags in the White House with some kind of beta evangelical leader nodding along as you liken the President of the United States to Jesus, the Christian Messiah, God in human form. How could you say something like that? How could the rest of us sit by and not protest when she said something like that? How could any Christian watch that and not feel revulsion? Well, because people didn't pay attention or they didn't think about it. Oh, it's just the praise that Trump demands. Fine. Not the first vain president, not the first vain leader, that's for certain. But to compare him or any president to Jesus has got to be a deal killer. That is the end. You cannot allow that in good faith. If you're a Christian, you have to say no to that. Doesn't matter whether you voted for Trump, campaigned for Trump across many states, defended him for 10 years, still like him. Doesn't matter. You cannot compare a president, a secular president of the United States or anybody, any human being, to Jesus. Why? Well, because, again, it is sacrilege, prima facie, but because it distorts who Jesus is. It is a lie about Jesus. Did Jesus command the disciples to go out and kill people? Where in the New Testament is that? Well, most people probably don't even know because they don't read it. Because their understanding of Christianity comes filtered through people like Paula White and Franklin Graham and many others of varying levels of good faith, or maybe entirely good faith, but they don't read it themselves. Kind of weird, if you think about it. It's a great story. You don't have to believe in it to enjoy it, to learn from it, to love it, actually. And if you're a believer, you need to read it. And it's not hard to read it, by the way. It's on Amazon.com Try this new living translation, NLT, just probably the most modern colloquial English translation of the Bible. Easiest to read. It's great. It's $4.30 on Amazon, delivered to your house. NLT just read it. Just read the four Gospels. You don't have to believe it. What do you think of that? What's the picture that emerges? Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Just four stories about Jesus from slightly different perspectives. Is the man that you read about, the Messiah you read about, recognizable as you listen to these people talk about him? Does he send his disciples out to kill? Well, I'll answer the question, having just read him.
- [39:29]
Guest Expert
No.
- [39:30]
Tucker
He sends them out to be killed. He says to them, go out. Tell the truth. The world will hate you for it. Take no weapon, take no food, take no money, take no talking points. I'm not even gonna tell you what to say. Just tell the truth. God will speak through you, totally unprepared. Doesn't give them a map, doesn't give him a plan of any kind, and he gives them no defense. And he says point blank, again and again. You could be killed for this. Probably will be. In fact, they all were. So far as we know. They were all killed. That's the Christian message. Now, you may think that's absurd. Many have. Nietzsche was revulged by it. Get it? But that is what Jesus said. He did not say, bomb the bridges and the hospitals and the power plants to what, Bring my kingdom? No, he said just the opposite. If you want to change the world, you cannot kill. It doesn't work anyway. It never works. You have to be willing to be killed. You have to lay down your life. And that is the message. You think God couldn't come and throw the Romans out of Jerusalem? Oh, yeah, of course. He chose the opposite. He chose to submit to them. Why? Because in that submission is victory over death. That's the true victory. That's the whole story right there. And anyone who perverts that is doing a grave crime against the faith itself. And that actually matters. You can argue about all kinds of points of doctrine and transubstantiation and a million things you can argue about, and Christians have argued about them for 2,000 years. But you can't argue that Jesus sends his people, God's people, His disciples, out to kill. He sends them to do the opposite thing, to die. And they do. And the world is transformed because they did. That's the message. And anyone preaching the opposite gospel of any Christian denomination is saying something vile and dangerous and should be called out for saying it. Because the message is not of conquering. It's of submission. Put your hand on the Bible when
- [42:00]
Nathan
you take that oath.
- [42:01]
Tucker
Because in doing that, you acknowledge I am Submitting to a law greater than myself, my own desire, my own whims, my will is not the final word. There is a limit to what you can do. And that limit is set not by you or any other person, but. But by God. That's what that means. Submit. There is time to fix this. There is time to prevent whatever is coming next, whether it's the murder of civilians and children by air or whether it's something even worse than that. There is time to fix it. All is not lost. But the first step, and this is also the first step toward faith, is submission. There are things I want to do that I will intentionally not do. I will submit to a law higher than my own desire. That's the first step towards civilization. And it is the first and absolutely mandatory step toward averting the true disaster that is coming. And we pray that the President will take that step and that those around him will. Will take that step, because everything hangs in the balance. And with that, here's our conversation with Nathan Apfel.
- [43:26]
Nathan
So thank you for doing this. Yeah, thanks for having me. I think you will unravel many mysteries. I'd never heard of Paula White. I ran into Paula White for the first time, heard her name for the first time when I ran into her in person right outside the Oval Office last winter, right after the inauguration. And she introduced herself to me and said, I'm the head of the Religious Liberty Commissioner or something. And I remember thinking, I'm so glad there is such a thing, because we need it. We need religious liberty almost more than anything.
- [43:49]
Tucker
And I said, I felt moved to say, just like, escape from my lips.
- [43:53]
Nathan
Thank you. And I really hope that you will do something to protect the Christians of the Middle east, particularly in the Levant. There are a lot of great Christians there, and they're being hurt, and nobody seems to care.
- [44:03]
Tucker
And she recoiled.
- [44:05]
Nathan
I remember thinking, she doesn't like this at all. That was my first and only experience with Paula White.
- [44:12]
Tucker
And so I've wondered ever since, who is Paula White and how did she
- [44:17]
Nathan
become the President's main spiritual advisor? You told me this morning that you went to church on Easter Sunday, which
- [44:24]
Tucker
was yesterday at her church.
- [44:27]
Nathan
And so before you give us the overview, can you just describe what that was like?
- [44:32]
Guest Expert
It was a interesting experience. You know, when you see Paula on stage next to Trump, or you see any big evangelical leader, Kenneth Copeland, Franklin Graham, you'd expect their church to be massive, thousands and thousands of people.
- [44:44]
Tucker
They're pastors. They have a church.
- [44:46]
Nathan
They're pastoring people they're shepherds.
- [44:48]
Tucker
Exactly.
- [44:48]
Nathan
They're the shepherd.
- [44:49]
Guest Expert
Yeah. And so we pull up and I expected a very big building.
- [44:55]
Nathan
Where is it?
- [44:56]
Guest Expert
It is in Opapka, I think I'm saying it right, Florida. So just north of Orlando.
- [45:00]
Nathan
Okay.
- [45:01]
Guest Expert
And I've been to Joel Osteen's church. You know, thousands, tens of thousands of seats. I've been to Second Baptist. 93,000 members in that church. I know, big church, right? It looked like a one of those metal sheds, you know, one of those big, like 5,000 square foot. Looked like an airplane hangar, basically. And I was like, this is just awkward. It was the parking lot, probably fit 50 cars. And so it was just an overflow in a dirt lot. This is a good size, like setting for you. They just had a simple coffee maker, like a standard pot coffee for their entire congregation. And so I walked in, I counted about 400 chairs. And when I got there, which was the time the service started, there was
- [45:44]
Tucker
seven people sitting on Easter Sunday.
- [45:47]
Guest Expert
Easter Sunday. And so we walked in, they put us two rows from the stage, and ironically, Paula's daughter in law approached me. And I was there with my girlfriend. And she approaches us and goes, who are you? And I'm wearing a floral shirt, yellow sunglasses, and an Alabama hat. Like, I try to be awkward in these situations. And she comes straight up and she goes, I'm Paula White's daughter in law. And I'm like, I'm Nathan. I don't hide who I am. And she's like, would you take a photo in front of our Easter display? And I'm like, sure. And so I walk over and Paula White's daughter in law is taking a photo of me. And I'm like, okay, can we get it? And I wouldn't be surprised if it's on their Instagram this morning. Cause it was for like their Instagram. So we go and we sit down and it packs out to about 200 people on an Easter Sunday, one of the two biggest. Christmas and Easter, the two biggest holidays for Christianity. 200 people show up to this thing. Mostly African Americans. I was one of six white people. And then you got this white woman on stage and that was the setting.
- [46:55]
Nathan
That's her church.
- [46:56]
Guest Expert
Her church? Yeah. Don't get me wrong, they got the lights and the fog machine and the jib arm that flies over the crowd. It's a production studio, is what I would call it, Production stage.
- [47:06]
Tucker
So the point is not to minister
- [47:08]
Nathan
to the people in the church, take care of their problems, counsel them, bring them closer to Jesus. The point is to produce a TV show.
- [47:15]
Tucker
Is that what you're saying?
- [47:16]
Guest Expert
That's what I would say. Similar to Joel Osteen. He's a TV producer by trade. Kenneth Copeland. Same thing. When I went to Kenneth's church, it was very small, sat maybe four or 500 people, and it was a massive studio with multiple jib arms, multiple cameras, security, massive stage. I produce tv. They produce tv.
- [47:35]
Tucker
That's fascinating. So did she preach?
- [47:39]
Guest Expert
No, her son preached. So she got up and gave a little message in the morning, a little prayer. And there was a really weird dynamic between her and her son. And I've got. I've got their bylaws, which I think explain why. But her son gave and got up, and honestly, a really sound message. Like, I give a shout out to Brad, like, that dude knows the Bible. And it was very interesting to me because I saw him visibly wrestling with this idea of shepherding and then the idea of the institution. And there was times where he would look at his mom and just throw daggers at her about corruption, power. It was. It was a very interesting dynamic. And she would. She would belittle him, too. It was. It was.
- [48:20]
Tucker
It was the service.
- [48:21]
Guest Expert
Yeah, yeah. During the.
- [48:22]
Tucker
On Easter Sunday.
- [48:23]
Guest Expert
On Easter Sunday. And then she. Once he finished the service, the sermon, which, hey, Brad, great sermon until the very end. Because then he's like, I don't want to do an altar call, but I'm a charismatic, so I have to do an altar call. And I'm like, well, you don't have to do an altar call. If you.
- [48:36]
Nathan
What's an altar call?
- [48:37]
Guest Expert
It's basically him saying, hey, if you're not a Christian, come down to the stage, you're going to say, jesus is my Savior. I'm a sinner. And boom, you're a Christian. And that's a relatively new technique in Christianity. You know, 200 years ago, altar calls were not a thing. And so altar calls are just a kind of a new tool that churches use to read metrics, you know, because at the end of the day, how are we performing? Oh, here's how many salvations we've had and how many baptisms we've had. And so he's not for the altar call, but you can tell he's wrestling with the institution that his mom gave him. And then after the altar call, she got up, and I'll quote her here, she goes, I'm going to speak for 60 seconds. She spoke for eight and a half minutes. I have the recording, how to give her money.
- [49:22]
Tucker
And, yeah, she did an 8 1/2
- [49:24]
Nathan
minute money pitch in church, correct?
- [49:26]
Guest Expert
Yeah.
- [49:27]
Nathan
At the end. What did she say?
- [49:29]
Guest Expert
She said she had an envelope. And she goes, my son moved me so much in this envelope, I have a sacrificial gift for him in this church. She didn't tell us what it was or how much it was. And she goes, well, if I could, I'd sell my house, but I can't sell my home.
- [49:45]
Tucker
Why?
- [49:45]
Guest Expert
I don't know. I would ask her the same thing. And she goes, I have shoes and jewelry, but I can't sell those. And so this is my sacrifice. And then she looked out and she goes, you guys need to sacrifice. She goes, that nice Easter dress you're wearing, your sacrifice should be more than that dress. And she goes, christ was the sacrifice and the offering and the tithe, but that doesn't mean it stops with Christ.
- [50:09]
Tucker
Oh, this is a hard sell, hard sell.
- [50:11]
Guest Expert
So you need to sacrifice.
- [50:12]
Tucker
Jesus died, so send me money.
- [50:14]
Guest Expert
Well, and then it was cute. She goes, oh, and you know, we do so much for the community, which they do things for the community. She goes, we do a food pantry and we give away food. Well, you don't pay for that food. That food is delivered to the church and then the church distributes it. So you're raising money for a food pantry that you have, but you don't have to buy the food. And so it's the carrot. I always say churches will use a carrot or organizations will use a carrot to get you to give and out of your gift. Let's say it's 100 carrots that they get and they're going to use that one carrot to kind of dangle in front of your face.
- [50:46]
Tucker
Did you get a sense that Paula White was leading any kind of pastoral care?
- [50:50]
Nathan
People have problems in churches, as in everywhere else, and one of the main jobs of a pastor is to be the shepherd for that flock. Right.
- [50:59]
Guest Expert
It sounds like her daughter in law likes to do that. Charismatics are very charismatic, you know, so she prays in tongues and, you know, they do all that. So they're very into that. But Paula walked in after the service started. I saw her come in and she walked out before it left or before it ended and she left, actually. Oh, yeah, yeah, There's. I wouldn't say there's any on site shepherding that Paula does.
- [51:20]
Tucker
So who is Paula White?
- [51:21]
Nathan
Exactly. And pardon my ignorance, but it's just
- [51:24]
Tucker
she's become this figure.
- [51:25]
Nathan
She's one of the people who prayed over the president and encourage this War with Iran, a country with over a million Christians in it.
- [51:35]
Tucker
But she's, like, played a role in our foreign policy.
- [51:40]
Nathan
So I think it's.
- [51:41]
Tucker
And of.
- [51:42]
Nathan
Of course, she's been used and has allowed herself to be used to justify this war and violence in the name of Jesus. So I think it's worth asking, like, who. Where does she come from? Who is this person?
- [51:53]
Guest Expert
I don't know her upbringing. But I'll start with this. I will give Paula the benefit of the doubt that she came into the church space wanting to do good. Yes, she wanted to save souls. She wanted to preach the gospel. I believe that. But I also believe.
- [52:08]
Nathan
I think we should always extend that benefit of the doubt to people.
- [52:11]
Guest Expert
Okay. So when she's presenting that gospel, she has to play in a certain legal realm, which is religious institutions, corporations in America. I firmly stand on my word that that legal architecture will corrupt anybody that goes into the mission or that ministry full time. So she started a church in Tampa called Without Walls with her husband, Randy Knight. I went to the building Saturday because I wanted to see where that was. So I drove up to Tampa, and now it's a bar. It's like a restaurant bar. And so I went in.
- [52:50]
Tucker
The church is a bar.
- [52:51]
Guest Expert
Well, so I went in and talked to the. The restaurant. I'm like, hey, was this Paula White's Church Without Walls? And the manager was like, yeah. So he's like, we get this question a lot, actually, which is fascinating. So I don't know the. The financial exchange or the. Or the real estate side of things, but the. The original Without Walls church was bulldozed, and then that restaurant bar was built on the property.
- [53:11]
Nathan
So she and her husband started a church in Tampa.
- [53:13]
Guest Expert
They started a church in Tampa called Without Walls. There's some scandal wrapped around that church. They used to work, or. They're very loudly talking about how they work in prostitution. They help prostitutes, they help the needy in that area. And so I talked with a past employee who said that, and we're getting the tapes right now. We found some old VHS tapes from Paula back in the day. So those are actually just. They just arrived to my house, very excited to look at those. But they said, oh, there's a rundown hotel on the property next to us. We bought that hotel. We're going to turn it into a rehab facility for prostitutes and drug addicts. And that's going to be our main witness. Awesome. That's right where I think Christ would be is hanging out with the hurting, the needy, the prostitute, the widowed yeah. And so they started raising money for this hotel that they had built. And they raised, I don't have the exact amount, but hundreds of thousands of dollars. And some of their congregants mortgaged their homes for it. Well, come to find out, they never even bought the hotel. This was just all theory and a good intentioned idea. And so that really crippled the church. And at the same time, her husband kind of, I'll just say, fell off the wagon. And so they got divorced. And her spiritual advisor was TD Jakes.
- [54:35]
Nathan
Do you know who TD Yes, I've met TD Jakes.
- [54:37]
Guest Expert
So her spiritual.
- [54:38]
Nathan
Famous black preacher, built like a linebacker.
- [54:40]
Guest Expert
Yep. Huge. Yeah, Yep. He was her spiritual advisor. He was also another pastor's spiritual advisor in Apopka. And unfortunately that pastor in Opapka OD'd in a bathtub and on drugs. On drugs? Yeah. And he was with a prostitute. The prostitute made the call, the emergency call. He died. And so TD Jakes as without walls is crumbling. TD Jakes as the spiritual advisor tells Paula to go take over this church in Opapka. So Paula White moves to Apopka, takes over that church, which they rebranded to Story Life Church, and that became her home church.
- [55:21]
Tucker
So there is the coolest movie we can imagine. It's a new film adaptation of George Orwell's amazing novel. Animal Farm. 1984 gets all the attention, but Animal Farm is better. It's coming to theaters May 1st. You probably remember that Animal Farm is not actually about animals. It's about human nature, the desire for authority and how quickly people tend to
- [55:46]
Nathan
fall in line and give up all
- [55:48]
Tucker
of their God given rights. The movie follows Lucky, a young pig whose curiosity and courage guide viewers through the farm's rise and fall. We see hope, betrayal and, and above all, the danger of totalitarian power. This is a movie to watch with
- [56:03]
Nathan
your kids, especially if they're old enough
- [56:05]
Tucker
to ask real questions and to notice when the answers don't add up. The book affected generations of American school
- [56:12]
Nathan
kids no longer taught, of course, because it's too true.
- [56:16]
Tucker
What do you do when the rules start changing? You're told you're not allowed to notice. Do you speak up or just go along with it? Because hey, that's easier. That's the conversation you should have with your kids about power, corruption and freedom. This movie's entertaining. It's sharp. Not many studios would do it at
- [56:34]
Nathan
this point, but angel did because their
- [56:35]
Tucker
guild members voted to bring it to the big screen. So see it, talk about it, decide for yourself what it means. Animal Farm theaters May 1st. Tickets available now at angel.comtucker that's.
- [56:47]
Nathan
Wow, that's quite a story.
- [56:49]
Tucker
So then what happens? She gets remarried or she's remarried to
- [56:53]
Guest Expert
one of the band members of Journey, that awesome band that I love to listen to. Yeah. So he plays piano for her on stage, you know, as she preaches. It's a great husband, wife duo. Yeah. So she now. Well, she did pastor this church. She's since passed it down to her son, Brad Knight. And why did she pass it down? Because she became a special government employee under Trump and you can't run a church, you can't write it. I believe the rule is you can't run a non profit or you can't be raising money outside.
- [57:28]
Tucker
So I don't want to judge her as a person.
- [57:30]
Nathan
There's a lot written about her personal life. I don't know, you know, what is true and what is not true. So I don't want to repeat it. But it's, I mean, it's kind of
- [57:38]
Tucker
defined by personal scandal.
- [57:40]
Guest Expert
Correct.
- [57:41]
Tucker
True or not.
- [57:42]
Nathan
Right.
- [57:42]
Guest Expert
There's a lot of personal scandal that I won't even go into.
- [57:44]
Tucker
Well, of course, because I don't know and I don't want to repeat things
- [57:47]
Nathan
that are not true.
- [57:48]
Tucker
But it's sexual scandal. Those are the allegations. So there's that. And I do think in order to
- [57:54]
Nathan
maintain credibility, I also think your faith
- [57:57]
Tucker
requires you to explain that and to
- [58:00]
Nathan
show people that it's true and repent,
- [58:04]
Tucker
apologize, be better, or prove it's not true.
- [58:07]
Nathan
But that seems all kind of unaddressed.
- [58:10]
Tucker
So how did she wind up, given all that? The President of the United States.
- [58:14]
Nathan
Chief spiritual advisor.
- [58:18]
Guest Expert
I've talked to a past employee of hers who. Paula's a very bold woman. Very loud. I had never seen.
- [58:26]
Nathan
I don't consider that a compliment at all. I just want to be clear.
- [58:29]
Guest Expert
What, bold and loud.
- [58:30]
Nathan
Yeah, I'm not into it.
- [58:31]
Guest Expert
No, either am I. And so I had never been around her before, but when her son was preaching and her son would say something, she would always be the loudest one. Yell, amen, brother. Go, go, son. You know, she, she just wanted to.
- [58:45]
Tucker
I find that awful. And we're like told we have to think that's great. I don't think it's great at all.
- [58:49]
Guest Expert
Yeah, but I, I.
- [58:52]
Tucker
Well behaved women really make history. I don't know about that. I mean, stop.
- [58:57]
Guest Expert
Yeah, but.
- [58:58]
Nathan
Excuse me.
- [58:59]
Guest Expert
I would agree with you, but. So the stories that I've heard from her employees are she. Trump was a mark from the early 2000s. So she would go down to Mar A Lago and hang out at Mar A Lago just waiting for Trump to pass. And when Trump would pass, she'd approach him. And she's a very bullish, bold woman. So she kind of had a mark on Trump for decades. And then same thing in New York, she rented an apartment in Trump Tower and she stayed in Trump Tower waiting to have FaceTime with Trump. So she's been playing the long game with Trump, has she?
- [59:34]
Nathan
I mean, is she like a well known theologian?
- [59:38]
Guest Expert
No, no.
- [59:40]
Tucker
But I guess all I'm saying is there are all kinds of predators around all power centers, including the White House. Right. It's just that's the nature of power. It's like a bug light.
- [59:48]
Nathan
It draws the Michael Cohen's of the world into your orbit. Right. People who want power and money.
- [59:53]
Tucker
But if you're going to be the spiritual advisor, you would think there'd be
- [59:56]
Nathan
some track record of, I don't know, Christian living.
- [60:01]
Guest Expert
So I got a question for you, Tuck Tucker.
- [60:04]
Tucker
Can I call you Tucker? Call me whatever you want.
- [60:07]
Guest Expert
So should your business model, if you're a pastor, should your business model emulate Christ?
- [60:13]
Nathan
I think your whole life is supposed to emulate Christ.
- [60:15]
Guest Expert
Perfect. So here's your bylaws, which are marked confidential, by the way. So her church cannot read her bylaws. The people who fund her cannot. The only reason why they came out was because of a lawsuit. I'm going to jump to page 2 really quick about membership. Members of the congregation are non voting. Members of the board of directors are voting. So congregants who fund it have no say over anything. We'll jump a few pages further about removing officers. So if for some reason she had a scandal. Right. Usually we remove officers from corporations that have scandals or abuse their control and power, but not for her. Ready? Any officer except the pastor president. She is the pastor and president may be removed from his or her office by the board of directors. The pastor president shall have the authority to remove any officer from his or her office at any time at her discretion. So she cannot be removed because any officer except the pastor president can be removed. And then she can fire anyone at any time for anything. So she has unilateral control. It gets better. Ready. Section five is resignation, removal, succession of pastor president. If the pastor president voluntarily resigns, she may designate her successor. Successor. The pastor president shall serve as president and a member of the board of directors until her death or resignation without need of election or appointment. She shall not be subject to removal.
- [61:52]
Tucker
Says that. Is this a monarchy?
- [61:54]
Nathan
What is this?
- [61:55]
Guest Expert
It's a monarchy. It's a monarchical power. Death. Upon her death, the pastor president shall be succeeded in the office of pastor president and as a director by her son, Brad Knight. It's a dynasty in bylaws that congregants can't see.
- [62:10]
Tucker
Is this a Christian principle?
- [62:12]
Guest Expert
No. No. And then this is the. The banger ready powers of officers. The senior pastor is the president of the corporation. And this is a sticking point for me because most pastors will say my church is not a business. Well, no, it's a corporation registered with the state. It's very much a business. Right. So the senior pastor is the president of the corporation and is referred to within these bylaws as pastor president. Here's the drum roll. The church finds its headship under the Lord Jesus Christ in its pastor president. So you don't find your headship in Jesus Christ. You find it under the Lord Jesus Christ in Paula White. So if I want to get to Jesus Christ, I have to go through Paula White.
- [63:00]
Tucker
I believe we had a Protestant reformation to get away from this idea.
- [63:04]
Guest Expert
You can keep that copy that.
- [63:05]
Tucker
The leader is infallible and the leader speaks always and everywhere for God himself. Yes. Isn't that why we had the reformation 500 years?
- [63:12]
Guest Expert
Well, that's the point of Christ. Christ came to remove middlemen, to remove the Levitical priesthood.
- [63:18]
Tucker
That's what I thought.
- [63:20]
Guest Expert
Yeah.
- [63:22]
Tucker
Wow, that's so. How unusual.
- [63:24]
Nathan
I've never heard of anything like that. How unusual is that?
- [63:28]
Guest Expert
That's pretty aggressive bylaws, but here's second Baptist bylaws. So I had a fun interaction in Houston the other week. This is a church with a billion dollars in assets in Houston. A billion. It's 98 years old. So that means generation after generation of generous Christ centered Houstonians have funded this building.
- [63:47]
Nathan
Some of my favorite people in the world and relatives of mine who I really look up to as Christians have spent a lot of time in that church and helped fund it and whatever.
- [63:58]
Tucker
So I know that there are true
- [64:00]
Nathan
amazing people, Christians in that church.
- [64:01]
Guest Expert
93,000 members had voting rights and voting rights are, hey, just like a democracy, just like America, a republic. We want to have a say in how.
- [64:11]
Tucker
Just like the church in acts.
- [64:12]
Guest Expert
Yes, we want to have a say the earliest church. And that's what we should probably be modeling ourselves after. Right. We want to have a say in how this all operates. A couple years ago, one very interesting lawyer from Dallas who I've had multiple interactions with and then the young family decided to, in a shady back end deal, remove voting rights of 93,000 members. Like that. So $1 billion in assets where that was voted on by 93,000 members in a in a single meeting on page seven, removed the voting rights as such, members are not entitled to vote in person, by proxy or otherwise. So $1 billion in assets were put into the hands of six people, five of which are related.
- [65:01]
Nathan
When did that happen?
- [65:02]
Guest Expert
2023. And now there's an ongoing lawsuit because the congregants are suing for their rights back.
- [65:08]
Tucker
How can you do that?
- [65:10]
Guest Expert
You can't. But shady lawyers so this is a big thing that we talk about in the religion business in season one. The church was never meant to be a capitalistic endeavor.
- [65:22]
Tucker
No, it's not a business.
- [65:24]
Guest Expert
Yes, but capitalism has crept into it and and shrewd smart businessmen and women and lawyers have realized it is the perfect legal architecture to either scam people or build empires in the name of Jesus.
- [65:38]
Tucker
Spring is the most refreshing time of year. Nothing complements it better than Black Rifle Coffee. Lots of it. This is an American company founded by veterans with conviction. They built the whole thing around a simple idea. Do it right or just don't do it. They're definitely doing it right.
- [65:52]
Nathan
We know because we drink it all day long.
- [65:53]
Tucker
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- [66:39]
Nathan
And you've devoted. I mean I think people can watch your documentaries and look you up.
- [66:44]
Tucker
But your point is?
- [66:45]
Nathan
The problem with a lot of American Christianity is not the faith. Of course you are a Christian, but
- [66:53]
Tucker
is the structure that corrupts by its nature.
- [66:56]
Nathan
It's like almost. I think you said to me this morning it's almost impossible to get out of this without being corrupted. If you're leading a church with a structure like that.
- [67:03]
Guest Expert
Correct?
- [67:04]
Nathan
Is that fair?
- [67:04]
Guest Expert
100%. I say that you can go in with the best of intentions, but if there's no external accountability on the system, that system will inevitably eat you alive and corrupt you. Your sermons, your messaging will all tilt to protect that institution. And I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. They're doing it unconsciously. Whether that be the idea of tithing, whether that be Zionism and Israel, it all tilts towards protecting the institute, the status quo of the institution.
- [67:34]
Tucker
Boy, you see this in all institutions though. Isn't the point of every institution over
- [67:38]
Nathan
time to protect and enlarge the institution itself?
- [67:42]
Guest Expert
That is the mission, but that's the need for reform and everything. The Bible's story is so beautiful because it's a story of birth, death and resurrection over and over. And Christ talks about when the seed falls, it has to die in the soil for rebirth. But what we've created is institutional structure that can't die. We can't reform this because too many people feed off the system, there's too many parasites. But if we killed systems and reformed them, which we need for new birth and regrowth, then people lose power, people lose their control and it's baked into human nature.
- [68:16]
Tucker
And loss of power and control is
- [68:18]
Nathan
a prerequisite for letting, well, for religious
- [68:21]
Tucker
transformation, for letting God take control.
- [68:23]
Guest Expert
Correct? Yeah. So that's a big deal. Christ literally gave up all control and hung on a cross. And this is one place I want to get to, whether you're a Christian, my 160 million self professed American Christians out there, my brothers and sisters out there, we can see the Bible as the word of God. And I can speak to it on that, my atheist and agnostic friends, let's see it as a history book. And today I want to talk with you about when he said it is finished on the cross, the last words that came out of his mouth, he meant it. So if you're a Christ follower, we're going to break down a lot of scriptures that depending on your theological approach, you will have to say it isn't finished. And so that's what I want to get into in power structure is one of them. When he hung on that cross, he
- [69:08]
Tucker
broke all of that.
- [69:09]
Guest Expert
All power structures. He is the only way, the truth and the life. And no one gets to Jehovah the Father except through him.
- [69:17]
Tucker
So what does that mean? I mean, I understand, I mean I always understood Jesus to be talking about
- [69:22]
Nathan
his life on earth.
- [69:24]
Tucker
But you're saying that when Christ said
- [69:27]
Guest Expert
it is finished, he was talking about the old covenants, the Abrahamic covenant and the mosaic laws, all 613 of them.
- [69:34]
Tucker
Huh. Is that acknowledged by churches? No.
- [69:38]
Guest Expert
Because if you acknowledge it, then your church structure, modern day church structure, has to really rethink and reform.
- [69:47]
Nathan
And what are you left with?
- [69:49]
Guest Expert
The Gospel, the saving grace of Christ, love.
- [69:57]
Tucker
So it's interesting when you look at
- [70:00]
Nathan
even churches that you agree, I'll speak for myself, that I agree with and love. You love the liturgy, love the people of the people. I mean, you can have pure hearted
- [70:13]
Tucker
people in a corrupt system.
- [70:15]
Nathan
The congregants, as I just said, it's about Second Baptist in Houston,
- [70:21]
Tucker
but the church itself seems like almost all of
- [70:27]
Nathan
them have deep corruption in them.
- [70:31]
Guest Expert
Christ said in multiple gospels is one of my favorite lines. He says, you've taken traditions of men and you call it doctrine.
- [70:38]
Nathan
Yes.
- [70:39]
Guest Expert
Our churches today are nothing but tradition. And they're based off of a 14 point checklist that the government put forward. They're based off the nonprofit sector created in 1913. That's all just traditions of men. That's not inherently bad, this room. There's no inherent goodness or badness to it outside of what we apply to it.
- [70:57]
Nathan
Right.
- [70:58]
Guest Expert
And so we've taken traditions of men and call it doctrine. One of those traditions is the legal architecture of the nonprofit sector. And then the religious exemptions applied to all churches, mosques, temples, you name it. They play by the same rules in America. That legal architecture, there's only one conclusion to it, and that's corruption. There's only one. When you look at how it's structured, there's no external accountability from an exterior source to hold the institution accountable. The government does not hold religious institutions accountable. So what it means is we hold ourselves accountable. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Scripturally, like we can't hold. Should we just sit around and be like, hey, Tucker, you and I, we've got a million bucks sitting on this table. What should we do with it? Well, let's just hold each other accountable with what we're going to do with it. No, we need some outside pressure saying, hey, let's oversee what we're going to do and how we're going to steward those resources. And the best part about that million, or the ironic part, is it's not even yours and my resources, it's the donors who gave it to us. And so the system right now is just set up for failure.
- [72:06]
Tucker
Inflation makes credit card statements particularly scary. You work 40, 50 hours a week just to buy groceries and gas, things you used to be able to afford without thinking that much about it. Then the banks charge you 20% interest. If the system is designed to keep you underwater, it's worth working.
- [72:21]
Nathan
But there's another option.
- [72:23]
Tucker
Our friends at American Financing are doing something the big banks despise. They are helping people. Mortgage rates in the fives, supporting the American dream of homeownership. And they're showing homeowners how to take their hard earned equity to wipe out high interest debt. Now, we're against debt in general, but in this economy, most people have no choice at all. So don't go bankrupt enslaving yourself to a lender. Average Savings are about 800 bucks a month and it takes only 10 minutes to talk to a salary based mortgage consultant. No upfront fees or obligation. To see how much you can save. Give American financing a call, 800-685-5696. That's 1-800-685-5696 or visit American financing.net Tucker
- [73:08]
Nathan
America's Home for home loans.
- [73:10]
Tucker
And you think it's uniquely bad in
- [73:12]
Nathan
this country because of the nonprofit structure devised in 1913. Same year as the income tax. Correct.
- [73:18]
Guest Expert
Same year as Jekyll island and all sorts of interesting things.
- [73:22]
Tucker
And then you made reference to the 14 point checklist.
- [73:25]
Nathan
Can you just fill us in on all of that since I'm ignorant?
- [73:28]
Guest Expert
Yeah. So in 1913, the IRS carved out or the government carved out the nonprofit sector. It looked at all the institutions in America and it said, wow, there's really brilliant institutions that help social good. And this is a big one. They build local social capital in their community. 1913 is pre really technology. You know, your life was like an 80 mile radius, basically. So you cared about your local community. And so the government said, hey, these businesses do things that we can't. Salvation army was a great example. So the Salvation army does things for its local community that the federal government and state government cannot do. So we're going to carve out these businesses and say, hey, you don't have to pay taxes. You have more freedom to pursue your mission, which is building social capital in your community, helping the homeless, the needy, basically Matthew 25, which is who Christ told us to help. Flash forward to today, there's 1.9 million nonprofits. So it went from 12,000 organizations in 1913 to 1.9 million. And you have to ask why the jump? And most arguments are, well, Nathan, population increase. Okay? Population increased 4.3% in America from 1913 to present day. If you do the Math, that's around 50,000 organizations. Today. So population increase didn't increase. The nonprofit sector. So how do we go from 12,000 to 1.9 million? Well, I think a lot of good intentioned people wanted to help people, but the lack of accountability in the system has turned the nonprofit sector into an opportunity for massive abuse and inurement. And in your ment is. I don't have the definition in front of me, but it's basically no founder, family member or executive can inure themselves by the benefit of the organization's net assets or net resources. So I can take a salary, but I can't use it like a personal piggy bank.
- [75:22]
Tucker
Right.
- [75:23]
Guest Expert
And these guys use it like a personal piggy bank. And most people use the nonprofit sector not like a personal piggy bank. How do they do it from a church perspective?
- [75:34]
Tucker
Yeah.
- [75:34]
Guest Expert
Well, you can, Tucker, start a church right now you can just say I'm a church. And because you say you're a church, you get that designation from the IRS immediately. They don't have to approve you of it because of what I would argue separation of church and state. And that's like a double dip. They love to say separation church and state until they want the state to help them out. And it's, it's an interesting rabbit hole to go down. But then you just file with the state, you file your articles of incorporation, so you are a business, but you never have to tell the fed what you're doing at all. And then if you're in, if you're in the evangelical world, in the non denominational world, there's no denominational hierarchy. So then it's the sky's the limit. It's, it's how charismatic are you, how good of a teacher are you, how good of an entertainer are you? And at that point it just becomes how quickly you can scale. And we call it religious economic theory in the religion business because it's. Now if I start a church, Tucker, down the street from yours, now we're pitted against each other for consumers. And so I'm gonna get a better stage than you, and then you're gonna get a better lighting system. So I gotta out compete you. And naturally the system just becomes a production, like a just production. And we need consumers in so we gotta keep them entertained. And so the nonprofit sector has just corrupted over time because of the lack of accountability. And from the secular side, nonprofits used to look local and that's why it was carved out originally. Right. A nonprofit was supposed to build their local community. Well, now with globalism, nonprofits want to look global. It's way more appealing for me to put a starving kid from Africa on the COVID of my newsletter than a white kid who needs some school books down the street. And so the secular side went global, so they forgot about the local community. And then the church started pitting against each other for consumers. And so the nonprofit sector just naturally is corrupted, and it's never been reformed.
- [77:37]
Tucker
So that's how you wind up with churches.
- [77:39]
Nathan
Air quotes that are actually TV studios.
- [77:42]
Guest Expert
Correct, correct. And ironically. So the 14 point checklist, which I originally thought came from the IRS because there were so many churches popping up, someone was like, how do we. How do we define what a church is? You know, like, there was a. There was a big lawsuit. I can't remember. It was in the 50s or 60s, and it was literally a wine distillery was registered as a church. And so there was a lawsuit about it. Because they're like, you're not a church, dude. You're just selling wine, you know? And so the word on the street is the IRS was like, hey, we got to put some structure to this. And so out popped this 14 point checklist. And the checklist came from that lawsuit. It was in California. And it's really simple. You need a house of worship, you need a place. You need a physical building. You need a congregation. That congregation has to. What do they call it? It's basically a faith statement. Your congregation has to have a specific faith statement to itself, and then you have to meet once a month, physically. And most churches already acted like that somewhat. And so, boom, you get the exemption. Well, what that does is it shoves all religion and faiths into that simple box. And so Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, you name it, Scientology, they just play by the same rules now. And so that was.
- [79:03]
Tucker
They want the tax exemption. They have to behave.
- [79:04]
Guest Expert
They want the tax exemption, but what does that do?
- [79:06]
Tucker
So that's not really separation of church and state.
- [79:08]
Nathan
That's actually the state constraining church.
- [79:11]
Guest Expert
Correct. And you have to ask, like, why? Let's talk about. Okay, we'll give everybody the benefit of the doubt. Why? What happens? What's the byproduct of that 14 point checklist? Every mosque looks like. Every Christian church looks like every Jewish synagogue. It's the same thing. The exterior might be looking a little different. Your message from the pulpit might be a different. But structurally, they're all the same. And what it does is it pulls all resources inward. It calcifies the institution as opposed to going out. And the beautiful part about Christianity is it was an outward gospel. It was help your neighbor. It was go out and make disciples.
- [79:50]
Tucker
Of course, Jesus sends the disciples out,
- [79:52]
Guest Expert
but now it's come in and naturally, what does that do? If I'm bringing everybody into my church, hierarchy starts building, we need resource to do this. And it's just a natural conclusion to what happened in 1913. And then the 14 point checklist.
- [80:08]
Nathan
That's amazing. So some of these churches have become very rich. It sounds like very.
- [80:14]
Guest Expert
Yeah. The LD, the Mormon Church, they're sitting at like 350 billion in net assets. Billion with a B. They're the second largest private landowner in the US now. They'll hit a trillion dollars in market assets if they keep their profit, the market profits in the next 15 years.
- [80:31]
Nathan
Why? What's the point of a church, any church, having that much money?
- [80:34]
Guest Expert
Well, they'll say it's for a famine and they'll say it's for the second coming. That's literally their argument.
- [80:40]
Nathan
Yes.
- [80:41]
Guest Expert
And so you go, okay, I'll even give you that. Ready? And they use the story of Joseph and the famine in Egypt as an example.
- [80:48]
Nathan
They have the largest farm, largest ranch in Florida.
- [80:51]
Guest Expert
Well, they're turning it into a city.
- [80:53]
Nathan
Deseret.
- [80:54]
Guest Expert
Yeah. They want to build a. I can't remember, 133,000 acres city. Yeah, they're working on that right now. Interesting. But so what they say is they point to Joseph. Well, Joseph only stockpiled for seven years.
- [81:10]
Nathan
Right.
- [81:10]
Guest Expert
The Mormon Church has stockpiled indefinitely. So they've reached something that the widows might report calls escape velocity. They make so much in the market in interest alone, they could fund the global LDS Church just off a fraction of the interest and grow in perpetuity. They would never have to ask a dollar from any congregant again. But they still ask you for your money.
- [81:35]
Tucker
It's interesting that they point to Joseph. I mean, it's a wonderful, amazing story.
- [81:39]
Nathan
I mean, it's a huge chunk of Genesis, Right?
- [81:42]
Guest Expert
Yeah.
- [81:43]
Nathan
And a great, great story.
- [81:45]
Tucker
But it's kind of the opposite of
- [81:47]
Nathan
the way Jesus commanded his own disciples. He sends them out with nothing.
- [81:52]
Guest Expert
Correct.
- [81:52]
Nathan
With no preparation whatsoever.
- [81:54]
Tucker
No food, no arms, no extra sandals, no extra clothes. He doesn't even send them with talking points. He doesn't tell them what to say.
- [82:01]
Guest Expert
Well. And can I ask you, why do you think he sent them out with nothing?
- [82:06]
Nathan
So they would rely on God. He says, when you're hauled into court, don't think about what you're going to say. The Holy Spirit will speak for you. Just open your Mouth and start talking.
- [82:13]
Guest Expert
Amen. And so they would rely on the generosity of others.
- [82:17]
Tucker
Yes, and of God. Put yourself out there and God comes to the rescue.
- [82:24]
Nathan
Display weakness and God will become your strength.
- [82:27]
Tucker
So he's like telling very explicitly people not to prepare for that eventuality.
- [82:35]
Nathan
I mean, all of us disobey it. I certainly do. But I hope I'm not sounding self righteous, but that's not the message of the Gospels, that I can tell.
- [82:43]
Guest Expert
I agree. So what have we built? We've built corporations labeled with Jesus on them. We've built products labeled with Jesus. We've built energy drinks labeled with Jesus. We're selling Jesus in man. Does he talk about selling his name and his father's name?
- [83:01]
Nathan
He does, yeah.
- [83:03]
Tucker
Explain.
- [83:03]
Guest Expert
Well, there's a story and it's right before they want to kill him, he walks into the temple and he starts flipping tables over and he has this whip and he's whipping people, like whipping people. And he goes, you've turned my father's house into a robber's den. And you've the place of worship where you're supposed to worship Jehovah. My father. You've turned this house into a robber's den. You're making money in my father's name. And what are we doing? We've turned the entire religious structure in America, Christian structure, into a money making endeavor. Even well intentioned denominations, they have to accept money to keep the machine moving. It's a hungry machine financially. And so I believe the model's totally backwards. Americans are good at, well, all humans are good at building, but Americans are really good at building. And we've just built things to the point where they've corrupted. And the casualty of that is the true body of Christ is now chained to the pews of the institution because they have to be. Yes, yeah, yeah.
- [84:16]
Nathan
I grew up in a church like that. A church that built buildings that were so beautiful that you could not go to them even when they became pagan.
- [84:26]
Guest Expert
It's like such a beautiful church.
- [84:28]
Tucker
I mean, there aren't many of those
- [84:29]
Nathan
left in the United States, but the Episcopal Church built the prettiest buildings probably
- [84:33]
Tucker
in the whole country.
- [84:34]
Guest Expert
Some of my, I love cathedrals. I travel a lot and my favorite thing are cathedrals. But you know, during the Protestant Reformation they burned most of them down. They broke the stained glass. They were over building things because when Christ came, he goes, you are the temple. The Holy Spirit dwells in you. There's no more physical temple.
- [84:54]
Nathan
Right.
- [84:55]
Guest Expert
And so what are we building? We're building physical Temples. And the LDS side of things is fascinating too, in regards to the temples
- [85:01]
Nathan
they love to build.
- [85:02]
Guest Expert
And you have to ask why they want to build those temples. And that just goes into the history of Joseph Smith and Mormonism. But they've. I tip my hat to the Mormon Church in regards to. You figured out the cheat code. Like in any video game, you figured the cheat code out in the religious exemption side of things. Because the only reason why they got rolled and busted by the SEC is they had so much money invested and they weren't filing what's called a 13F. So when you have 100 million bucks invested in the market, you have to fill out an informational 13F, which is just an informational filing, saying, hey, here's my stock. Here's our stock portfolio. Because you could technically sway the market, of course.
- [85:42]
Nathan
Yeah.
- [85:42]
Guest Expert
And they have billions, tens of billions invested in the market.
- [85:47]
Nathan
Do we know where can. You know where?
- [85:49]
Guest Expert
Yeah, you can. Now they. Now they're. They fill out the forms now. And so they're heavily invested in pharmaceuticals. They're heavily invested in machinery of war. War. So the lds, actually. Yeah, the LDS Church profits from war and from COVID you know.
- [86:06]
Tucker
Is that true?
- [86:07]
Guest Expert
Yeah. How from COVID they are heavily invested in Pfizer and Moderna and all the vaccine companies that's verified. Verified? Yeah, verified on their 13 Fs.
- [86:19]
Tucker
So when the government under Biden, you
- [86:22]
Nathan
know, very liberal, anti Mormon, you would think government starts pushing, commanding the population to take the vaccine. How does the Mormon hierarchy respond to that?
- [86:33]
Guest Expert
They put out a marketing video saying, you should get the jab, you should get the vaccine, actually. Yeah. And the prophet got a shot live on camera. I don't know if it was a real vaccine or just a dummy.
- [86:45]
Nathan
For his sake, I hope it wasn't.
- [86:46]
Guest Expert
Yeah. But yeah, they encouraged their church congregation to get the vaccine.
- [86:53]
Tucker
That's true.
- [86:54]
Guest Expert
True.
- [86:54]
Tucker
Fact.
- [86:55]
Guest Expert
Fact on camera.
- [86:57]
Tucker
I mean, it's only been five years,
- [86:58]
Nathan
but that's like so shocking that any church would do that. But they weren't the only church that did that.
- [87:04]
Guest Expert
Yeah, Lots encouraged it. Churches have become political, whether right or left, and churches have become a weapon of the political party. It's a box on a shelf. When I need that evangelical vote, I'm going to pull it off.
- [87:20]
Tucker
So you know for a fact that
- [87:21]
Nathan
the LDS Church is invested in weapon manufacturing?
- [87:25]
Guest Expert
Yeah, they're. They're heavily invested in. In Northrop Grumman and multiple other.
- [87:32]
Nathan
How can a church invest in, like, weapons that kill innocents?
- [87:37]
Guest Expert
I don't I think it's extremely antithetical to what they believe. But their argument is, Nathan, we're just following the status quo of the market. Whatever the index is, we just invest in. They don't care about what they're invested in.
- [87:55]
Nathan
Then they've said that.
- [87:57]
Tucker
I just want to be clear.
- [87:58]
Nathan
I like a lot of Mormons.
- [87:59]
Tucker
Just like.
- [87:59]
Nathan
I like a lot.
- [88:00]
Guest Expert
I like a lot of. And let me be very clear, Tucker. There are so many good Christians. Mormons, like, people are awesome. Institutions are what I can't stand because they corrupt. So it's. How do we bring accountability and reform into institutions, whether that be religious institutions or government institutions? There has to be accountability, Transparency and accountability in this situation.
- [88:25]
Nathan
No, it's totally right. I mean, you run into, you know, the longer you live and the more you travel and the more people you meet, you'll run into people in institutions
- [88:32]
Tucker
that you revile that are just obviously evil. CIA, FBI, irs, you know, who are just great people.
- [88:43]
Nathan
And you're like, wow, you know, I feel sorry for you.
- [88:47]
Tucker
But it's also just important to make
- [88:49]
Nathan
the distinction between individuals in whatever institution they're serving.
- [88:53]
Guest Expert
100. I love people.
- [88:54]
Nathan
Yeah, I do, too.
- [88:55]
Guest Expert
I love people.
- [88:56]
Nathan
I do, too.
- [88:57]
Tucker
So Franklin Graham, like, how much money
- [89:00]
Nathan
has Samaritan's Purse amassed?
- [89:02]
Guest Expert
Franklin, Billy's son. So Samaritan's Purse does great work. They work with refugees. They work immigration. They work natural disasters. They do good work. And I want you to think about that carrot. There's always that carrot that nonprofits dangle. This is their 2021, 990, which is just an informational sheet that churches do not have to file. So the. The beautiful part about the 990s, these. The first two pages, a 990 is just an informational sheet that every secular nonprofit files annually. And it shows the IRS and then their donors roughly where the money goes. So there's two things I want to. I want to bring up. And if I forget, I want to talk about Alaska. Just say, let's talk about Alaska. This is 2021. Up in this top right, there's two numbers highlighted. What's the first?
- [89:56]
Tucker
And then the first number highlighted, holy smokes.
- [90:05]
Nathan
Is 923,718,989. The second number is 1,222,609 10.
- [90:15]
Guest Expert
So from 2020 to 2021, their net assets jumped from 900 billion to 1.2, right?
- [90:23]
Tucker
Yes.
- [90:24]
Guest Expert
This is their 2024. So remember, guys, 900 million in 2021. This is 2024.
- [90:31]
Nathan
A few years later, it jumps to 2 point, almost 2.5 billion.
- [90:35]
Guest Expert
2.5 billion.
- [90:37]
Tucker
What does that mean?
- [90:38]
Nathan
How can a charity have $2.5 billion in assets?
- [90:42]
Guest Expert
They're built. They're building a war chest. It's the same thing with the LDS Church. They've realized that the nonprofit can do some good with a carrot, but then just stockpile money. And so donors are giving, looking at the carrot, saying, we're doing good work, as the nonprofit itself, as the corporation just stockpiles resources.
- [91:03]
Nathan
But to what end?
- [91:05]
Guest Expert
To the LDS Church's end. They figured it out to the point where there's no end in sight.
- [91:09]
Tucker
At least the Mormons have a consistent
- [91:11]
Nathan
theology where there's going to be a famine and we're banking against it.
- [91:14]
Guest Expert
Yeah, but that's. I get that. Okay. For seven years, but you're talking about indefinitely. They're banking on an indefinite famine.
- [91:20]
Tucker
Right. I don't. Then I don't really see where God fits into that.
- [91:23]
Guest Expert
No, he's not there, bro.
- [91:26]
Tucker
Okay. Yeah, but why would Samaritan's Purse, which
- [91:30]
Nathan
is not a Mormon organization, why would they have two and a half billion dollars banked.
- [91:36]
Guest Expert
I don't know.
- [91:37]
Tucker
In assets.
- [91:37]
Guest Expert
In assets? I don't know. It's a great question for Franklin.
- [91:41]
Tucker
And so how much do they spend
- [91:43]
Nathan
a year helping the needy?
- [91:45]
Guest Expert
Estimates are 60 to 100 million, but they're raising hundreds of millions annually. So they're building this war chest. And this is.
- [91:53]
Tucker
How can Franklin Graham be raising that much more than he's spending on the needy?
- [91:59]
Guest Expert
Because he's a good fundraiser.
- [92:02]
Nathan
Yeah, but like, isn't the money. Don't people give to him to do good?
- [92:05]
Guest Expert
Yes. So what I see is nonprofits. The nonprofit structure right now is just draining. And taxation is draining the American populace of resource, of wealth. For what end? I don't know. But life's getting more expensive. Nonprofits are cheerleading, saying they're doing more as homelessness rises, as poverty rises. The entire system and architecture is broken in institutional religion and politic in America go hand in hand, even though they say they.
- [92:39]
Tucker
Yeah, I mean, I always gave to
- [92:40]
Nathan
land trusts because I don't like, you know, ugly development. And I really love nature so passionately.
- [92:46]
Tucker
But then you realize the land trust,
- [92:48]
Nathan
kind of, not all land trusts, but a lot of land trusts exist for their own benefit. And then they gate the land and you can't use it.
- [92:54]
Tucker
Yeah.
- [92:55]
Nathan
So you can't hunter fish on their land. So, like, what's the point of this? Exactly. Like I hunter and fish on timberland Paper company land. Yeah.
- [93:02]
Tucker
But the second some nonprofit from Vermont
- [93:05]
Nathan
takes over, you can't go on the land. So, like, why do you exist? Exactly. And they own all the land in a lot of places.
- [93:11]
Guest Expert
Why does the nonprofit sector exist? It's a great question.
- [93:14]
Tucker
For itself.
- [93:15]
Guest Expert
Yes. That's what it's corrupted into.
- [93:17]
Tucker
So can I ask you. And I don't want to focus too
- [93:20]
Nathan
much on Samaritan's purchase, because I know that there are many groups like it, but they're at $2.5 billion, clearly one of the biggest.
- [93:27]
Tucker
A lot of these guys fly private.
- [93:30]
Nathan
And as someone who flies commercial, often coach. I mean, because you should. Because why would you be wasting money on a private plane all the time?
- [93:39]
Tucker
How does a Christian organization justify having a private jet?
- [93:43]
Guest Expert
It's usually their schedules are too busy. Tucker. That's their rationale. Copeland Duplantis. They say, no one could fly public with my travel schedule.
- [93:55]
Nathan
Maybe you slow down your travel schedule a little bit.
- [93:57]
Tucker
Maybe I only say that because I've
- [94:00]
Nathan
flown private enough to know that it's, like, next level expensive.
- [94:04]
Tucker
Like, there's no way to. Even for businesses, rich people don't buy their own planes because, like, I just can't justify that.
- [94:09]
Nathan
I'll charter if I need it.
- [94:10]
Guest Expert
There's a funny. There's a funny story.
- [94:12]
Tucker
So to have a private jet that you own and pilots whose retirement you pay fuel costs, that you shoulder the endless maintenance on the plane, incredibly expensive. Like, ask any rich person that rich people don't do. I mean, some do, but most rich people are like, I'm not rich enough for that. Yeah, right.
- [94:30]
Guest Expert
There's a great story.
- [94:31]
Tucker
I know a lot of rich people, trust me, they'll be like, I'm rich, but I'm not that rich. Then you see some preacher who's got a private jet. It's like, what world are you living in? What is this?
- [94:39]
Guest Expert
Well, and the congregation will justify it, too. That's what's so backwards.
- [94:43]
Nathan
Sorry, that makes me mad.
- [94:44]
Guest Expert
The blind lead the blind into a ditch, as the scripture.
- [94:47]
Tucker
But how common is that? You've got your own jet.
- [94:49]
Guest Expert
It's. It's not. I wouldn't say it's that common. There's some. A lot of pastors try to get into that space, and then their congregations do sometimes push back. And so who was I just talking about?
- [95:01]
Tucker
If I had a pastor in a
- [95:02]
Nathan
church that I was attending on Sunday,
- [95:04]
Tucker
say, we need a private jet. I mean, I'd stand up in the
- [95:07]
Nathan
middle of the service and say, son,
- [95:09]
Tucker
I know more about this than you do. You do not need a private jet. Jesus didn't fly private.
- [95:13]
Nathan
He rode a donkey. Like, what are you doing?
- [95:15]
Guest Expert
Well, then they'll say, oh, but the donkey was literally. I've had someone say that was the fastest mode of transportation.
- [95:21]
Tucker
It wasn't.
- [95:22]
Nathan
It was the most humiliating form of transportation. That's why he chose it.
- [95:25]
Guest Expert
Yeah. Yeah. But they'll justify it. Samaritan's purse has. Ooh. I didn't print their entire 2024, but last year they had, I think, 134 million in plain assets.
- [95:40]
Tucker
What?
- [95:40]
Guest Expert
Let me see. Dang it. Yeah, it's not on this, Doc.
- [95:44]
Tucker
I'm way more comfortable with the pastor sleeping with his assistant, which is totally
- [95:48]
Nathan
immoral, than I am with him having a private jet.
- [95:50]
Guest Expert
I agree. I agree.
- [95:51]
Tucker
Because at least everyone realizes, like, you're not supposed to sleep with your assistant. It's totally sinful. It's wrong.
- [95:56]
Guest Expert
Well, the planes are the.
- [95:57]
Tucker
But a plane is like a subtle kind of evil.
- [95:59]
Nathan
It's like no one even notices.
- [96:01]
Tucker
Oh, we're so important. He's got a plane.
- [96:02]
Guest Expert
Well, that's the prosperity gospel message creeping in, right?
- [96:05]
Nathan
What is that exactly?
- [96:06]
Guest Expert
This is Paula White. This is Kenneth Copeland Duplantis. This is, if God favors me, I will be prosperous. And it comes from Malachi 3.
- [96:16]
Tucker
Malachi 3.
- [96:17]
Guest Expert
3, yeah. Opening the windows of heaven and you're going to be prospered. Malachi3 is talking about one thing. It's talking about rain for their fields. It's saying, if you bring into the storehouse, I will open the windows of heaven to you and pour out a blessing like you've never seen this. Malachi was talking about rain falling on the land so you could refill your storehouse. He wasn't talking about a private plane.
- [96:44]
Tucker
Well, especially for a Christian to be like, well, you know, why are you doing that? Malachi 3. It's like, we've got a whole New Testament and four Gospels in that. And, like, why don't you read those and tell me if you should have
- [96:55]
Nathan
a private plane at other people's expense?
- [96:57]
Guest Expert
Well, this goes back to our conversation earlier about Malachi 3. If you don't read the scriptures in its entirety and see it as one book and one glorious story, you can bastardize a couple verses that. And it have detrimental effects on the global church. The body of Christ. When I say the church, I'm sorry
- [97:18]
Nathan
to do this now. I just want to be totally transparent and say that Franklin Graham called Me, an anti Semite. So I'm obviously no to Franklin Graham.
- [97:29]
Tucker
So I should just say that just
- [97:30]
Nathan
so people understand that I probably have mixed motives in doing this. I'm not a pure person. But I also think it's worth just
- [97:36]
Tucker
pausing on Franklin Graham for a second because his father was a great man.
- [97:40]
Nathan
I think Franklin Graham is like a sober, serious person in a lot of ways. He's not a transparent, ridiculous figure like Paula White. It's just.
- [97:47]
Tucker
I mean, it's almost too easy to beat up on Paula White.
- [97:49]
Nathan
Okay, yeah, the great theologian Paula White.
- [97:52]
Tucker
But Franklin Graham is a much more
- [97:54]
Nathan
serious person, and he's always on Fox News and all that.
- [97:58]
Tucker
And so that's why I do think
- [98:01]
Nathan
it's worth pausing and having you restate. How much do they own in private aircraft?
- [98:07]
Guest Expert
Around 130 million.
- [98:11]
Nathan
That's just trey Bonkers, as the French say. That's just beyond $130 million.
- [98:19]
Guest Expert
And this is a great track to move into Alaska. So he bought a piece of land with his wife on Lake Clark in Alaska. Very remote. I'd been to Alaska a few times, so I understand how remote.
- [98:32]
Tucker
Me too.
- [98:33]
Guest Expert
Alaska is beautiful. Some of the most pretty country in the world.
- [98:36]
Tucker
Hard to get to, though.
- [98:37]
Guest Expert
Very. And this is what gets interesting. So I believe. I don't have the document in front of me. He and his wife bought this little lakefront, half acres. I believe it's a half acre or maybe even a quarter acre, very small property on beautiful Lake Clark a few years. And that was. They purchased it personally because Franklin loves Alaska. He loves fishing. He. He loves bear hunting. He's a. He's a. He's.
- [99:00]
Tucker
Yeah. No, I like that about him.
- [99:01]
Guest Expert
And I. Yeah, I'm a big outdoorsman. You are. And, well, what happened was a few years later, Samaritan's purse bought the lot next to him. And flash forward. In the little town called. Is called Port Allsworth. There's only a couple hundred people that live there full time. There's no signals. You can't drive to it. There is no road that gets you from Anchorage or any other city to Port Alsworth. The only way to get there is by flight, private plane. And there's a dirt Runway. There's two of them. Or by boat, by barge, up these rivers.
- [99:34]
Tucker
Yeah.
- [99:34]
Guest Expert
And this is a good story for backstory. So I was up in Alaska probably four years ago. No longer than that, five years ago. And we're in the middle of nowhere. I'm with Inuits. Like, we're going back packing on Float planes to find a property that my friend was inheriting from her parents. I'm like, I'll go with you. This sounds awesome, right? So I'm carrying a tag. I got a 10 mil strap to my chest, a shotgun, a bear gun. And I'm like, we're going. We're in the middle of nowhere. We're sitting with this Inuit. We're staying at her cabin, and she's making us a meal. And she asked what I do, and I say, the religion business. And I give her the story. We're filming it. And she goes, oh, you won't believe it. Her husband owns a barge and barges equipment up and down these rivers. And she goes, we just barged a soft top Ford Bronco. Brand new, 20, 21. So it's right when the Ford Bronco came out. And I'm like, what is a soft top Ford Bronco being barged up a river in the middle of nowhere for? And. And this is when you couldn't get them. They were, you know, they were very hard to get. And she goes, yeah, we barged it up for Samaritan's purse. And I was like, what? And she goes, yeah, here's the invoice. And she put the invoice in front of me that said samaritan's purse.
- [100:52]
Tucker
Ah, this is so corrupt. I can't believe this is real.
- [100:54]
Guest Expert
Yeah, and this is where it gets crazier. So I was like, wait, what do they do? And she goes, they have this camp for, which is awesome. My brother's a marine. My best friend's a marine or military. My business partner's retired military. I have massive respect for our armed forces. So they started a nonprofit up there called Heal our Patriots. And they bring couples, husband and wife couples up there to reinvigorate their relationship and retune them to Christ. Awesome idea, right? And so. But I'm like, what's a soft top Ford Bronco doing in the harshest environments in the world? I mean, like, no one takes nice things up there because they all rust and get destroyed within a few seasons. So I start doing some research. Sure enough, I find it. They bring a couple hundred people up there a year. For three months out of the year, they have these massive lakefront cabins. Now, they bought. I said there was two dirt runways. Samaritan's purse bought one of the runways. So now they have their own private airstrip. And so Franklin and his wife have a house, and they bring a couple. Mike Pence has been there multiple times. Of course, he has and so ironically, I'm like, I'm going. So a camera operator and I, we went to Anchorage, took a plane to a little Cessna to somewhere else. And then we got on a float plane and we landed. We're in the middle of nowhere, Tucker. And all of a sudden there's it's. Have you seen the movie Truman Show?
- [102:19]
Nathan
No.
- [102:20]
Guest Expert
Great movie, but it's about a fake world. It was a fake world. There wasn't a blade of grass out of place. Like the amount of upkeep in care to make this place look perfect. And then the crazier part is this is where I go conspiracy theory. There's these massive fuel storage tanks, massive 20,000 gallons at a time. And this plane would fly in and land and just refuel these tanks. And I talked to the pilot and he's like, yeah, this place is like a bunker basically to just camp out. And I'm like, oh, this is like Franklin Graham's World War iii like hideout. Like if things go south, he's going to ping up here. He's got, they've got gardens, they've got full greenhouses. I'm like, this is like, this is the bugout zone. And that's just my conspiracy theory.
- [103:09]
Tucker
But I mean, every rich person in
- [103:11]
Nathan
the world thinks that way.
- [103:12]
Guest Expert
So the reason why I'm saying this is this organization is paid for by donor dollars. It is a multimillion dollar a year operation. Franklin Graham, I have his flight logs, flies his private jet back and forth from North Carolina to Alaska during this three month window. If you really wanted to be run a successful, humble nonprofit is where it gets crazier. Like you live in North Carolina almost on the water. You could start a great operation there in your backyard. But here's my kicker. They're 990s show donors where the money goes. This isn't their full 990, so you wouldn't be able to see it. But in the back of a 990, they line itemize where you're supposed to line itemize where your money goes. There is Nothing in their 990 that has anything to do with Alaska. So it's buried in another line item that no donor knows about.
- [104:10]
Tucker
So I just get, I get this story specifically because that's every rich guy
- [104:15]
Nathan
in the world wants, you know, as
- [104:18]
Tucker
a sportsman, wants a camp on a remote lake in Alaska, easy access and wants a bug out spot. Everybody wants that.
- [104:26]
Nathan
I mean, I would know.
- [104:27]
Tucker
Yeah. And that's what everyone talks about. You know what I mean?
- [104:31]
Guest Expert
Yeah.
- [104:31]
Tucker
And that's the opposite of a conspiracy theory. That's like the thing people want most. And if you can find a way to get your non profit to pay
- [104:40]
Nathan
for it and a way to morally
- [104:41]
Tucker
justify it to yourself, while I'm helping
- [104:43]
Nathan
wounded warriors keep their marriages together,
- [104:47]
Guest Expert
that's just.
- [104:48]
Tucker
That is so corrupt.
- [104:50]
Nathan
If what you're saying is true, that's
- [104:51]
Guest Expert
like, I've been there, we filmed there, we got. This is the best part. So there's so many good parts of the story. So at the end of the Runway, there's a food truck that they barged up. Get this, they barged this food truck up there to be there too. And it's called. Oh, what's Franklin's daughter's name? Cece. Or she goes by, I don't know, can't remember her name. It's named after his daughter. This food truck, they serve a very specific hamburger that's Franklin Graham's favorite hamburger, his favorite meat patty. And so we just picked a random date to go. Like, I didn't coordinate this or anything, but you can only go in the summer. And so I'm sitting there and it's the only place to eat. So literally we ate there every day. And we're sitting there and we, we had hiked this ridge line to get a shot looking down, and Franklin Graham pulls up in the Bronco. And I'm like, well, my camera operator's like, dude, that's the Bronco. And I was like, what? And out drives from the side road, this soft top Bronco pulls up, gets out, walks straight into the food truck, not goes up to order, walks into the back of kitchen and starts making himself a burger. And we have a camera. And so I just put the camera on the table and it starts rolling. And there's only two picnic tables. And so I'm looking this way, Franklin makes his burger, walks out, sits in the other picnic table staring right at me.
- [106:15]
Tucker
Wait, can I ask, like, where is there to drive?
- [106:17]
Guest Expert
There's nowhere to drive. The Runway.
- [106:20]
Tucker
So the Bronco is to drive from the Runway to the camp.
- [106:23]
Guest Expert
The Bronco is to drive from his house down the airstrip to the main set of houses.
- [106:28]
Nathan
How far is it?
- [106:29]
Guest Expert
Probably a quarter mile, third of a mile.
- [106:30]
Tucker
What?
- [106:31]
Guest Expert
Yeah.
- [106:32]
Tucker
And they barged a brand new Bronco in to drive a quarter mile?
- [106:36]
Guest Expert
Yeah, most people use quads or golf carts, you know, because there's nothing. There was one other car that I saw, it was a, it was like a 1988 Chevy Suburban. And I know it because it was my first Car. So great vehicle. Yeah. 454. That big old time. But that was the only other car. And then a brand new Ford Brock soft top Ford Bronco. Yeah.
- [107:00]
Nathan
Wow. I don't think most really rich people who actually made the money, honestly or
- [107:06]
Tucker
not honestly, but who made it themselves and didn't just like not pay taxes
- [107:10]
Nathan
on donor money designed to help starving Africans. I don't even think they would go to that expense.
- [107:15]
Guest Expert
It was impressive.
- [107:15]
Tucker
That's very extravagant.
- [107:17]
Guest Expert
Well. And he's using donor money to justify it. And then on their 990s, you can't find the line item cost of the operation. That's the problem. I have.
- [107:28]
Tucker
What do people say when you tell them?
- [107:30]
Nathan
I've never heard any of this, but it's.
- [107:32]
Guest Expert
I would say it's 50. 50. The people who don't like abuse are like, that's incredible. But I would never. I don't think that's Franklin Graham. Because they look at Billy Graham, who I respect, and they go, he's the son of Billy Graham. But again, all systems corrupt. And anybody who goes into this system eventually gets eaten by it. And the other side actually try to justify it. So many people try to justify this type of abuse.
- [108:01]
Tucker
Really? How?
- [108:02]
Guest Expert
Franklin's a godly man, Tucker.
- [108:05]
Tucker
A godly man is a humble man.
- [108:08]
Nathan
That's the first sign of godliness, is humility. Because you're not God.
- [108:12]
Tucker
Yeah, right.
- [108:13]
Nathan
So that was the model that Jesus left us. That was the model of the early church was humility.
- [108:17]
Guest Expert
Well, I find it ironic too. We have the shot in the show. Oh. To get the veterans and their wives up there, they need private planes too. So they've bought these other aircraft that they look like military transporters almost. And they land and they circle around. Cause it's a small Runway and so they circle around. Who's the first person off the plane?
- [108:42]
Nathan
Who?
- [108:43]
Guest Expert
Their staff photographer. Because they gotta get the marketing photos of these wounded veterans getting off the plane. And I just laughed. And the best part is I'm there waving an American flag. Because they bring out the whole town. Because there's so few people on this little strip. They want it to feel like it's something so cooks. Everybody are coming out with a little American flag, waving it. So I'm sitting there waving my flag with them. And it's all in the show. And the first person off is the staff photographer. Just making sure they document it to get all the shots. And then ironically. So I told you, I spent six years in Maui during the Lahaina fires, which Was awful. I have really close friends in Maui. A couple of my friends are firefighters that worked at the airport there. Samaritan's purse flew their jet or their jumbo, their. Their cargo plane from North Carolina to Lahaina. I'm sorry to call. Yeah. Lahaina, Kahloi. They landed at Kahului. And the first person off that jet, too. Staff photographer. They've got to get the shot that they're bringing in materials to help the people of Maui. And then Edward Graham Franklin's son walks off. And I was told what was on that plane. All of it could have been bought at Costco down the street. Water, blankets, just. But they spent tens of thousands of dollars in fuel to get the marketing shot.
- [110:02]
Nathan
Hundreds of thousands. So they could raise hundreds and hundreds
- [110:05]
Tucker
of thousands of dollars so they could
- [110:08]
Guest Expert
get the marketing shot so they can raise money saying, look at us. Help the victims of the line of fire. And those victims still, like, I have such a heart for Maui and what happened there. But Samaritan's purse, I would confidently say the majority of it is all just smoke and mirrors at this point. They do good work. They do some good work.
- [110:27]
Nathan
Well, $2.5 billion where you're not spent, if you know, I mean, just do the math. That should be billions a year spent on the poor.
- [110:35]
Guest Expert
I agree.
- [110:36]
Tucker
Yeah. Just by definition. Yeah.
- [110:38]
Guest Expert
And there's the silver lining here is American Christians and global Christians. But American Christians in particular are so generous.
- [110:44]
Nathan
Yes, they are.
- [110:45]
Guest Expert
That we could solve through the money we give most social issues in America. The church could do it, but the money is not being stewarded properly. It's being shelled up in massive corporations. And people are leveraging donor generosity to build their bug out spaces in Alaska. All in the name of Jesus. People don't fear God very much anymore.
- [111:07]
Tucker
Well, the most effective Christian mission I've
- [111:10]
Nathan
ever seen, I think that exists in the country is not even explicitly Christian, but it is Christian and it's aa
- [111:15]
Tucker
and it raises no money. They won't even take money from you. And no one gets paid. There's no one in charge.
- [111:21]
Nathan
And they take people who are literally killing themselves and they change them completely. Not all of them, but they have a better success rate than any other rehab by far. And they accrue zero power.
- [111:34]
Tucker
Wow.
- [111:35]
Nathan
It's the most Christian thing that happens in most churches.
- [111:38]
Tucker
You'll have some rotting Congregational church.
- [111:40]
Nathan
No one goes, you got a trans
- [111:43]
Tucker
preacher lady or something. And then on Wednesday, they'll have the
- [111:46]
Nathan
AA meeting and Jesus will fill the room.
- [111:50]
Tucker
Cost Nothing. It's amazing.
- [111:53]
Guest Expert
When I was traveling back in the day, I traveled to developing nations because I worked in the action sports world. So surf and snow and so you usually go to pretty remote spots. And I would always want to go to churches and seminaries in those regions.
- [112:05]
Tucker
Oh, I bet.
- [112:06]
Guest Expert
And so I've gotten to worship in tin roofs and the back rivers of Honduras, in the favelas, in the Brazil. In Brazil, like the most beautiful things. And that's what really started the religion business for me, is I would, these people would never ask for money. They wouldn't have coffee and donuts. They were huddled under a tin roof as the rain was pouring down. There was no instruments. Most of the time they were just singing a cappella. And someone would pull out a little Bible and read some scriptures. And I believe God just filled those rooms.
- [112:34]
Nathan
I believe that.
- [112:35]
Guest Expert
And then I'd come back to the megachurches that I would go to and I'd walk in and I'd be like, oh, it's just the fog machines filling the room for sure. But it was just performance. And so that really made me rethink what is a church.
- [112:48]
Tucker
Yeah. I mean, especially since Jesus is pretty
- [112:51]
Nathan
tough on the rich and on money and it's a challenge to any of us, you know, who have excess money. It's like, what is he saying?
- [112:57]
Guest Expert
Well, money is the root of all evil, right?
- [112:58]
Nathan
Well, that's what. It's the love of money.
- [113:00]
Tucker
Yes, love.
- [113:01]
Nathan
The love of money is not the money.
- [113:03]
Tucker
Right. That's what Paul said.
- [113:04]
Nathan
And Jesus says, famously, it's harder for a rich man to get to heaven than a camel through the eye of a needle. So yeah, the idea that like you follow God and get rich is like, like a perfect inversion of what he said.
- [113:16]
Guest Expert
But that's capitalism creeping into the church. And I would actually argue, and this is a bold statement, a democratic republic is the greatest government experiment in the history of humanity. I would say I've enjoyed it. You enjoyed it. Yeah. So we enjoy it. We love. I love America. You love America.
- [113:32]
Nathan
I do.
- [113:33]
Guest Expert
Capitalism should not be anywhere near Christianity. You think Christianity is more, and I don't like the word socialist with the, with the, the weight it carries. But Christianity and it's is socialism at
- [113:47]
Nathan
its core, non authoritarian.
- [113:49]
Guest Expert
It's, it's, it's the marker to build social capital. You look at that early Church of Acts and it transformed Rome within a couple hundred years. The greatest superpower of its time to where Constantine was like, I'm a Christian hanging out with these dudes. They had no money, they had no buildings. But somehow the love of their neighbor transformed the greatest superpower of its time. That's dangerous.
- [114:14]
Nathan
It needs to be constrained. Right.
- [114:16]
Guest Expert
Today it's just we've let capitalism. And Carl Truman, he's a Reformation thought expert, brilliant guy from England, he calls it the rugged American individualistic experience. And he goes, that has detrimental effects on Christianity.
- [114:30]
Tucker
How about greed?
- [114:31]
Nathan
I mean, it just looks like greed to me, but yeah.
- [114:35]
Tucker
So let me ask about. I never paid any attention to any
- [114:38]
Nathan
of this stuff ever. Just didn't ever encounter it at all. Because America is like a collection of cultures that don't sort of meet each other very much. But the only reason I became aware of any of this is because of its effect on foreign policy, which I have followed closely for a long time. So all of a sudden you see these preachers endorsing violence and my understanding of the Gospel, it's like, Jesus does not command anyone to go kill anybody else. Like just the opposite. So I'm like, what is this?
- [115:06]
Tucker
So you press a little bit and you find that they're serving this theology or ideology or demonic influence. I mean, I don't know what it is, but this conflation of the nation,
- [115:19]
Nathan
modern nation state, secular nation, state of Israel with biblical Israel, whatever that was, you find this thing called Christian Zionism. And I still don't understand it. It's not Christianity.
- [115:32]
Tucker
But what is it? Where does it come from?
- [115:34]
Nathan
And is it as widespread among the leaders of these institutions as it seems to be? Let's start last question first.
- [115:41]
Tucker
They all seem to be.
- [115:43]
Nathan
The people you're talking about all seem to be Christian Zionists.
- [115:46]
Guest Expert
Yeah, I would argue it's dispensationalism. Okay. Is the bedrock of it. Right. So I feel like Zionist, anti Semite, all these hot button words are just thrown around, that's for sure. So, yeah, dispensation, I don't care what anybody calls me. Like I'm going to reach. Oh, and I have my business partner and I have something for you because I'm going to go back to this right now. This is a preacher's Bible from 1668. Wow. So preachers, this is, this is what a preacher carried around. And a good friend of mine is one of the biggest Bible collectors in the world. So 1668, right on the spine there. And this is what you and I are going to reference for the next, for this, this time to understand dispensationalism, Zionism, anti semi, anti Semitism. Yeah. Printed in 1668.
- [116:38]
Tucker
It's amazing.
- [116:39]
Nathan
In England.
- [116:40]
Guest Expert
Yep, in England. And, yeah, I just figured it's. It's. It's. Whenever anybody starts talking about subjects like this, I will always refer to the Scriptures for truth, nothing else. Not popular belief, not opinion.
- [116:55]
Nathan
It's incredible.
- [116:55]
Guest Expert
Just the Scriptures. So that's for you from Chris and I.
- [116:59]
Tucker
Well, that is so kind. Thank you.
- [117:01]
Guest Expert
I love that.
- [117:01]
Nathan
Yeah, I'll actually read it.
- [117:03]
Guest Expert
Yeah. Yeah. It's a good one. So it's a good book, guys. Whether you see it as a history book or the word of God, it's a great book. Dispensationalism is a very new thing. It's only a couple hundred years old. A guy named Darby kind of spun it up. The Scofield reference Bible had it in its margin notes. And so it's the idea that the world is broken into dispensations or periods. And so Darby had this idea that Israel, the 12 tribes which came from Abraham, are different from the body of Christ that Christ talks about in the Gospels and that Paul pushes for and really closes down in the epistles. And so dispensationalism is Israel, the tribe of Israel is set apart from the body of Christ. And part of that is this idea of reclaiming the promised land, the physical promised land.
- [117:58]
Tucker
Where does that.
- [117:59]
Nathan
I mean, Paul, who wrote the majority
- [118:02]
Tucker
of the New Testament, who was a Jew, was a Pharisee, a persecutor of
- [118:06]
Nathan
the church, and then met Jesus, he
- [118:08]
Tucker
goes out of his way to say that. The opposite of that.
- [118:12]
Guest Expert
Romans, he destroys that argument. Like, he levels dispensationalism with a sledgehammer in Romans, Hebrews, same exact thing. Galatians hits on it, too.
- [118:23]
Nathan
Oh, I know.
- [118:23]
Guest Expert
Yeah. And so it goes back to this idea when we don't see the Scriptures. And this is what I want to encourage everybody out there. Christians, atheists, agnostics, I don't care. Like, it's the greatest history book of humanity. We can see it as that. And you have to see it as one story. It's not 66 different stories for the 66 book canon. It is one story. When we dive into this book and start cherry picking verses or parables and applying it to our life, that's a very dangerous practice because we become our own storyteller, which is idolatry.
- [118:57]
Nathan
Yes.
- [118:58]
Guest Expert
And so you have to see this book as one complete story of birth, death and resurrection, or creation and fulfillment in redemption. And so dispensationalism is the twelve tribes of Israel still deserve this land. And so I don't Know where we
- [119:17]
Tucker
want to and don't need Jesus.
- [119:18]
Guest Expert
And don't need Jesus? No.
- [119:20]
Tucker
Okay, so that's the leaving aside the
- [119:22]
Nathan
land and what you do with the Levant and all that and what the boundaries of that land are. I mean, these are all questions I tried to get answers from in my conversation with Mike Huckabee, to no avail.
- [119:33]
Tucker
But that secondary is a theological matter to the core question, which is, how
- [119:37]
Nathan
do you get to heaven? How are you redeemed?
- [119:39]
Tucker
And I think the New Testament could not make it clear.
- [119:42]
Nathan
Jesus couldn't make it clear.
- [119:44]
Tucker
Paul, the Jewish Pharisee, couldn't make it clearer. It's through Jesus. It's an exclusive claim. It's that or nothing.
- [119:50]
Guest Expert
Correct. And Jesus, that's what it says, right?
- [119:53]
Tucker
Am I missing something? This is a chapter I don't know about.
- [119:56]
Guest Expert
Jesus is the way the truth and the life. No one gets to the Father.
- [119:58]
Tucker
Okay, so then you have people just arrive out of nowhere 150 or 200
- [120:02]
Nathan
years ago, and they're like, well, actually, there's one group that doesn't need Jesus. Is that what they're saying?
- [120:07]
Guest Expert
Correct. And this goes.
- [120:08]
Tucker
Where does that come from?
- [120:09]
Guest Expert
It comes back from pride is where I'll take it. So there was only one church, and it's not the Roman Catholic Church, it's not the Orthodox Church. Those are great traditions. I respect those traditions.
- [120:21]
Nathan
I do, too.
- [120:23]
Guest Expert
But there's only one church, and that's the Church of Christ. That's the body of Christ. And in 1054, you have the Great schism, the original split, right? Denominational split, boom. Now you have Catholicism in the Vatican, and you have Orthodoxy. Well, today there's over 40,000 denominations. And you have to ask, why, Tucker, if you and I preach the same gospel, what does that mean? We're equal? There's nothing different about you and I. We have the same God, the same Christ. We believe in the same healing power through the resurrection. And we are here to help the hungry, the sick, the poor, the naked, the prisoner, the sojourner, the orphan, and the widowed. But I don't want to be like you, Tucker. I want to be unique. I need something different. So I'm going to go to this book and say, oh, these guys, Tucker, got it wrong. Like dispensationalism. Then I have a new message to sell. And I can sell it. Then I can package it and sell it. Power and money is at the root of all of this. Power and money.
- [121:24]
Tucker
But of all the new messages, I mean, that just seems like an explicitly
- [121:29]
Nathan
anti Christian message that you don't.
- [121:31]
Tucker
That some people don't need Jesus to be saved.
- [121:34]
Guest Expert
I 100% agree.
- [121:35]
Tucker
If you were to summarize, I mean, you can believe it or reject it. Most people reject it.
- [121:38]
Nathan
That's fine. You know, it's not my job to save people.
- [121:41]
Tucker
But the Christian message is you need Jesus. So if you have Christian preachers all of a sudden standing up and be like, well, actually, not really, then they're not Christian preachers, are they?
- [121:52]
Guest Expert
No, they're dividing the body of Christ.
- [121:53]
Tucker
Right, but on the basis of theology. That's the 180 degree opposite of the Christian message.
- [122:00]
Guest Expert
Correct. I would say.
- [122:03]
Tucker
What is going on?
- [122:05]
Guest Expert
I would say most Christians, especially dispensationalists or Zionist Christians, are Talmudic Jews wrapped in Christianity.
- [122:13]
Nathan
What does that mean?
- [122:15]
Guest Expert
Okay, so where should we start? Should we start?
- [122:20]
Tucker
Let's.
- [122:20]
Guest Expert
Can I start in the Bible? Because I want to lean on Scripture here. So you have Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. Jacob becomes Israel. Israel has 12 sons. Those are the 12 patriarchs.
- [122:33]
Nathan
Right.
- [122:34]
Guest Expert
Ironically, the word Jew, do you know what it means?
- [122:36]
Nathan
It comes from Judah of Judah. Right.
- [122:38]
Tucker
So who are the 11 tribes?
- [122:41]
Guest Expert
There's so many muddled terms here that's so ironic to me. But so the story goes, Moses leads them through the promised land 40 years. Or, I'm sorry, leads them to the promised land. They wander through the desert for 40 years and Moses is about to lead them into the promised land. This is the land that in the Abrahamic covenants, he's. And then the Mosaic laws, the Israelites are going to inherit this land. Right? This is the story. So they're about to cross into the promised land. Moses does something silly first and he slaps a rock to get some water out. And he doesn't give credit to God, he takes the credit instead. And so Jehovah says, hey, you're not going to enter the promised land. And I'm going to. I'm going to give you someone who will. It ends up being Joshua. So Joshua is the next book of the Bible after the Torah. Joshua leads them into the promised land. So in Joshua 21, it says, all has come to pass. Not. I actually want to read it because it's such a powerful line. But this is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant, and Joshua himself says it. And so the Abrahamic covenant, remember, is Israel deserves the land. Let's see, where is this? Sorry, I'm a big note taker. Where's it on the back? Oh, dang it. It's not in this copy. I have so many copies of things. So in Joshua 21, he says, I've given you peace in the land. No one's warring with you. God has given us everything. All has come to pass. Which means that covenant is fulfilled. Jehovah had given Israel the land, they settled in it. And so dispensationalists will go. No. Well, the Abrahamic covenants are still in effect. Well, no. The very man that led them in, in the scripture says, all has come to pass. And then on the cross, Christ says it is finished. And what the whole story of this book is, the Old Testament is a physical reality, and it's a shadow of a future spiritual fulfillment. And so the promise, Jesus says this repeatedly. Repeatedly. So the promised land, God did fulfill his covenant with Abraham. Yes. Joshua led them in and he said, all has come to pass. And then what did they do? They didn't listen. They fell out. They bred with, you know, other nations.
- [125:02]
Nathan
Philistines. Yeah.
- [125:03]
Guest Expert
And boom. Okay, that doesn't mean you get the covenant over and over and over and over again. Right. And so Christ comes and he takes what is a physical nation. And Romans is clear on this. And that if physical Israel becomes a spiritual nation, it becomes the body of Christ.
- [125:19]
Nathan
Yeah. Jesus calls himself the Temple.
- [125:21]
Guest Expert
Yes. So Israel today is the body of Christ. Christ believing Christians. Christ following Christians Israel, the nation state is something else entirely. And there's a geopolitical argument to be had that. Yes, like, they deserve their country. They deserve the land for sure.
- [125:41]
Tucker
Right.
- [125:41]
Guest Expert
That's a great conversation. Don't use this book, though, to justify current geopolitical.
- [125:48]
Tucker
Exactly. I don't think the Bible commands you to hate modern Israel.
- [125:52]
Nathan
I don't think that. And I don't hate modern Israel.
- [125:55]
Tucker
But the claim that the Bible tells you you have to support Bibi is
- [126:00]
Nathan
so deranged that it's a threat to our faith.
- [126:03]
Guest Expert
Correct. The physical promised land is fulfilled in a spiritual promised land. The physical nation, tribe of Israel becomes a spiritual nation that all are invited into. This is the story in this book. So the only reason why you would dip back into old Covenant theology, dispensationalism, Zionism is for two things. Power and control. Our God, Christ is a unifying God. He's not a divisive God. He doesn't divide. He doesn't say, you're different than you. Nope. All are my children. All come under me. And so the only reason why you divide is for power and control.
- [126:38]
Nathan
That is so wise. That is true. That is true. I mean, that's the story of history.
- [126:43]
Guest Expert
And so when Christ said it is finished on the cross, he meant it. Anybody who dips back into Old Covenant theology, it is not finished on that cross. And that's what Talmudic Jews think.
- [126:59]
Nathan
So how did it wind up becoming not just like this eccentric boutique view, non Christian view, but it became the dominant position of evangelical, not exclusive. No, they don't all think this. And I think it is changing, but for the past 40 years, it's been the dominant view.
- [127:20]
Tucker
How did that happen?
- [127:23]
Guest Expert
I think there's a very nefarious. I'm going to call them, they right now behind all of this. And I'm going to go down some called conspiracy theory rabbit holes or whatnot. I think the church, and especially the evangelical church is being used as a tool for a far greater agenda that most people can't see or fathom at the moment.
- [127:44]
Nathan
I feel that so strongly I can't see it either, but I feel that it's so obvious. So what is that agenda?
- [127:52]
Guest Expert
Huckabee said the quiet part out loud in your interview. He said, if they were to take the promise, you positioned it. Hey, well, why don't they just take all the land? And he said, well, maybe they should. Or I'm paraphrasing there, but whatever he said, that was the quiet part out loud. There is a group that wants to reclaim that promised land, the original Nile to the Euphrates and rebuild the Third Temple. And there's only one thing that does in this book. And it ushers in the Antichrist. So why in God's name would anybody want that?
- [128:26]
Nathan
In God's name. That's right.
- [128:27]
Guest Expert
Yeah. And I, I want to. I'm here to present this argument that right now the Evangelical church and most Christian leadership is being used for something far more nefarious than they understand and can fathom. They're all blind. The blind lead the blind into a ditch. And they're being walked into a ditch rapidly in the name of Jesus and in the name of this book.
- [128:55]
Nathan
What, what does that mean, ushering in the Antichrist?
- [129:04]
Guest Expert
Well, I'd get into my opinion because I don't know, I personally think. Is that where we want to go?
- [129:11]
Tucker
I want you to tell the truth
- [129:12]
Nathan
as you understand it.
- [129:13]
Guest Expert
Okay? This is my truth. I think the Antichrist is power and ultimate power and authority. It's institutional power. When you look at the world, we were a conquering world. People were moving out. Well, once you conquer the world, it's all conquered. Where do you go back to? We're not that smart. We go Back to this. Well, we need to reconquer the promised land. That's what I think is there's a group that wants to retake that promised land. They do believe this book has significant power and so they want to reclaim it. And they're using dispensationalist arguments to do that.
- [129:52]
Nathan
For the sake of controlling the world.
- [129:54]
Guest Expert
For the sake of controlling the world, yeah.
- [129:56]
Nathan
I mean, that's just so clearly true. Yeah, it's so clearly true. And it grieves me to say that. I think the President of the United States may not fully understand that theology or that argument, but clearly sees this war in Iran as a way to achieve power over the world. There's no doubt in my mind.
- [130:16]
Tucker
Yeah.
- [130:16]
Guest Expert
And this book, the beautiful saving grace of this book is being weaponized to do it.
- [130:25]
Tucker
So do you believe that there's a
- [130:28]
Nathan
spiritual component to this? It's not just like 100%.
- [130:31]
Guest Expert
I do firmly believe there's a demonic component to this behind it all. And the church is, again, the church and its resources are being used to do it.
- [130:44]
Tucker
That's kind of obliquely described in the New Testament. Right.
- [130:47]
Nathan
In the deception that Jesus promises will come at some point, the people you think are going to save you are actually working to destroy you.
- [130:54]
Guest Expert
Well, Satan came as light and then he says my workers will come as light also.
- [131:00]
Nathan
Right.
- [131:01]
Guest Expert
That's a very, very terrifying.
- [131:03]
Tucker
So if you're hoping to understand the nature of evil, which I think a
- [131:06]
Nathan
lot of people are trying to understand, like what does it look like? It's not just the obvious monster under the bed stuff. No, true evil seems like salvation.
- [131:15]
Guest Expert
True evil comes as a half truth. It comes looking like Christ, sounding like Christ, but it's not Christ.
- [131:22]
Nathan
And how do we know, how do we know the difference between Christ and something that looks like Christ?
- [131:28]
Guest Expert
You have to know his word, his scripture.
- [131:30]
Nathan
What are the fruits?
- [131:32]
Guest Expert
Love, joy, peace, Peace, kindness, goodness, gentleness.
- [131:35]
Tucker
It seems to me that people who
- [131:36]
Nathan
are coming in the name of God and doing God's will, who are holy, throw off around them kind of an umbrella of peace. And they don't leave chaos in their wake. Like we can judge the tree by its fruit. This is just my half baked thought of my living room theology to myself. But I'll be running against you with deeper knowledge that we know when someone's
- [131:59]
Tucker
on the God's path because that person is at peace.
- [132:03]
Nathan
That person is not seeking power and control over others. That person is not besotted by greed or lust or pride, obviously. And that person can Admit fault. He's humble, and that his world, the people around him, are at peace. They're not filled with.
- [132:20]
Tucker
Right. I mean, if the message is, you're
- [132:22]
Guest Expert
a good baker, I would. He baked it.
- [132:25]
Tucker
Well, no, I mean, that. That just all seems super. I understand everything on the most obvious level.
- [132:28]
Guest Expert
So it's like rocket science, the book?
- [132:30]
Tucker
Well, it kind of feels that way. It's not.
- [132:32]
Guest Expert
Well, because we've. We've.
- [132:34]
Tucker
So if you claim you're acting in God's name and speaking God's word, then the people around you should be at peace. Right. The leader should have a good father, has happy children.
- [132:45]
Guest Expert
Correct.
- [132:46]
Tucker
Right.
- [132:46]
Guest Expert
Yeah.
- [132:47]
Tucker
And a bad father has screwed up children. It's kind of that simple. It all flows down from leadership.
- [132:52]
Nathan
So the world around a true Christian
- [132:55]
Tucker
leader should be a harmonious, peaceful world, and the people should be thriving. Now, I don't. By which I don't mean they're all getting rich. They may be poor, but they should be joyful 100%.
- [133:07]
Guest Expert
And they should be content.
- [133:09]
Tucker
Yes.
- [133:09]
Guest Expert
I think contentment is such a big part of this book.
- [133:12]
Tucker
Tell me. Flesh that out.
- [133:13]
Nathan
I know that you're right, but I don't quite understand how contentment is.
- [133:18]
Guest Expert
There's this term called shalom, but contentment is just being at peace in the position you're at. And it wasn't until I had my daughter that I actually started to understand that. Because I realized, hey, this isn't about me. This isn't about Nathan anymore. This is about something so much more profound and beautiful. And when I had. I didn't have my daughter, when her mom had my daughter or our daughter, it's when I went back to this book. And that's where I started finding contentment and fulfillment. And you find fulfillment in Christ. He said, I have come to fulfill it all. I have fulfilled the Old Testament. I have fulfilled the Old Covenants, the Mosaic Laws. And everybody goes, oh, Nathan, that doesn't mean he abolished them. I didn't say he abolished them. I said he fulfilled them into something greater, which is Hebrews. It's what the Book of Hebrews is all about. Where of necessity, there takes place a death of a priesthood, there's a change in covenant. Also. Christ ushered in an entirely new covenant. And that's right through him. It's through his teachings. He is the way, the truth and the life. And no one gets to Jehovah except through Him. That's the only way. And I didn't understand it. I was raised in the church my whole life. I Didn't understand it until I had my daughter and I started reading the Bible cover to cover. Here's the problem, Tucker. Only 13% of American Christians have ever read the book.
- [134:40]
Tucker
How.
- [134:43]
Guest Expert
How about I show you a trailer of a movie, a two and a half minute trailer, and you go, this is my favorite movie of all time. Done. You know, you wouldn't do it.
- [134:52]
Nathan
No, you wouldn't.
- [134:53]
Guest Expert
You say, hey, I need to see the whole movie because the other 90 minutes might be total crap.
- [134:59]
Tucker
Or it might be completely different from
- [135:00]
Nathan
what the trailer portrays.
- [135:01]
Guest Expert
Yeah. Or maybe Nathan's description to you of the movie is totally wrong. So a pastor's description of this book might be totally wrong, but it just
- [135:11]
Tucker
seems obvious that if you're calling for violence against innocence, what you're saying has no connection to what Jesus said at all. Right. Or am I just being too autistic about this?
- [135:21]
Guest Expert
No, no, you're on it. I voted for Trump.
- [135:24]
Tucker
Oh, well, yeah, I campaigned for Trump. It was a lot.
- [135:28]
Guest Expert
When I look back on it, I was sold a straight lie.
- [135:31]
Tucker
You think?
- [135:32]
Guest Expert
Yeah, yeah. And I want no, no wars. I believe in. In Christ teaching peace and love and loving your neighbor. And we the. And again, I'm going to go back to something positive because everybody always says everything's negative about my conversations. But the generosity of Christians can transform our nation. We don't need to give more. We need to be better stewards, which would be the biggest light to the world. And right now it's going down a really dark path really quick. And in one breath on Easter Sunday, we have pastors claiming similarity from Trump to Christ in regards to the beatings and the lies. And then the next day, he's threatening to blow up power plants and bridges, hurting civilians, saying, fuck. Like literally the most disgusting evil in a tweet that I've ever read. Totally agree from a president. And I'm like, wait, wait. But our Christian leaders are still going to try to protect that and justify that.
- [136:34]
Nathan
How dare they?
- [136:35]
Guest Expert
Yeah, I agree. It's disgusting at all levels. And we were talking about spiritual war. I think there's a massive spiritual war going on in the White House right now, and it starts with the spiritual leaders that are standing next to and over Trump.
- [136:57]
Tucker
I think a lot of us were
- [136:58]
Nathan
too cynical and approached this as theater, which it may have been intended to be.
- [137:03]
Tucker
Get whatever money hungry dispensationalists or fallen
- [137:08]
Nathan
screwed up people who don't have real congregations and get them to sort of put the imprimatur of the New Testament on what is clearly in violation of basic Christian principles. And let's get the evangelicals on board for this.
- [137:23]
Tucker
I don't think that's the whole story. I think these are instruments of spiritual war.
- [137:30]
Nathan
These people. This is not just theater.
- [137:32]
Guest Expert
Like this is real, 100%. Yeah, well, like we live in a. So when we look. But let's go into the Old Testament again. You know, the Tabernacle, the holy of holies, and then the outer, the outer, the outer rooms. There was a veil that separated spiritual from physical. When Christ died on that cross, what happened to that veil?
- [137:53]
Nathan
It was rent in half, tore down,
- [137:55]
Guest Expert
which meant the spiritual world and the physical world worlds combine. And hence the bridge from physical nation Israel to spiritual nation. We are bridged now through something far greater than physical nationality, genealogy, all that. But that also brings deadly things with it, which is there's a darkness in, in the spiritual realm as well. And we live in that right now. And again, the devil comes as light. What better way to completely steer off good, generous Christ, fallen Christians than sell something that kind of looks like Christianity? Create institutions that have literally all the resources in the world, but will keep you chained to their pews. Again, we're going to go back. Christianity is dangerous. The Book of Acts, that church was dangerous to power and institution. Right now the current institutional church structure is being used as a weapon for ill gotten gain against God's people. Against God's people. We're being used, the evangelical church. Most Christians are being used to, to kill children, women. Yeah. And all in the name of this old covenant. Pete Hogsworth or whatever his name is, he's quoting that. Trump's quoting it. That's why you have to read this thing as one story. It's one complete story of redemption. And so if you're looking to Trump and looking to what we're doing and looking to the nation state of Israel and saying, oh yeah, this is why that's justified instead of geopolitical reasoning. You are being duped and you are saying it is not finished on that cross.
- [139:48]
Nathan
Amazing, amazing conversation. Thank you.
- [139:51]
Guest Expert
Yeah, I'll be thinking about it. Yeah, think about it. I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just doing my thing, bro.
- [139:58]
Nathan
You're speaking the truth. I know that. Nathan, thank you very much.
- [140:01]
Guest Expert
Yeah, thank you, Tucker.