Tucker & Piers Morgan Debate Foreign Aid, Hate Speech, NATO, Gun Control, & Is Zelensky a Dictator?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Tucker Carlson Show Episode Title: Tucker & Piers Morgan Debate Foreign Aid, Hate Speech, NATO, Gun Control, & Is Zelensky a Dictator? Release Date: January 31, 2025

In this intense and engaging episode of The Tucker Carlson Show, host Tucker Carlson engages in a heated debate with guest Piers Morgan on a range of pressing international and domestic issues. The conversation delves deep into U.S. foreign policy, the legitimacy of world leaders, the role of NATO, and the complexities surrounding support for Ukraine and Israel. Below is a detailed, sectioned summary capturing the key points, discussions, insights, and conclusions of their debate.

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1. Zelenskyy: Hero or Dictator?

[00:26 – 05:00]

Tucker Carlson initiates the debate by challenging Piers Morgan's assertion that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is a hero. Carlson questions the legitimacy of Zelenskyy's leadership, labeling him a dictator based on his unelected status and alleged oppressive actions.

• Carlson: "Zelensky is a hero. How could you say?" [00:26]
• Morgan: Acknowledges Zelenskyy's extraordinary rise from comedian to president but critiques the complexity of Ukrainian-Russian relations.

Carlson defines a dictator as someone who lacks respect for democratic norms and questions whether Zelenskyy fits this definition by pointing out issues like the banning of religious denominations and persecution of political opponents.

• Carlson: "The first criterion for dictatorship is that you're not elected. And what else?' [03:35]

Morgan counters by arguing that Ukraine's recent history, including the 2014 coup allegedly sponsored by the U.S. CIA, undermines the democratic process and complicates Zelenskyy's legitimacy.

• Morgan: "If you support making dictators, you're undermining your own standards." [05:21]

2. Defining a Dictator

[05:00 – 09:20]

The conversation pivots to defining what constitutes a dictator. Carlson maintains that leadership legitimacy hinges on being elected, while Morgan emphasizes actions that disregard democratic norms.

• Carlson: "If we're just gonna define dictator, the first feature is he's not elected." [03:35]
• Morgan: "A dictator is someone who has no respect for free and fair elections." [02:57]

They discuss whether actions such as banning religious practices and assassinating opponents align with dictatorial behavior, with Carlson asserting these are clear indicators.

3. U.S. Foreign Policy: NATO and Ukraine

[09:20 – 15:08]

Carlson criticizes U.S. support for Ukraine, questioning the strategic benefits and highlighting the potential for Russia to win the war if the West continues its current policy.

• Carlson: "If the west allows Putin to just take the land he's taken, what guarantee do we have he won't try and take the rest of Ukraine." [02:51]

Morgan defends the support for Ukraine by likening it to historical interventions like expelling Saddam Hussein from Kuwait, arguing that national interests such as maintaining energy stability justify involvement.

• Morgan: "America went to war to preserve cheap energy. That's not a crazy thing to say." [10:07]

Carlson counters by suggesting that supporting Ukraine without clear strategic gains leads to unnecessary loss of life and questions the moral consistency when the U.S. supports similar actions in other countries.

• Carlson: "We are supporting dictators in Ukraine who oppress Christians and murder political opponents." [07:05]

They debate whether NATO's expansion and the U.S.'s role in destabilizing foreign democracies align with America's long-term interests.

4. Historical Comparisons and Military Interventions

[15:08 – 27:12]

Morgan references historical U.S. military interventions, such as the Gulf War, to illustrate a principle-based foreign policy driven by strategic interests like oil.

• Morgan: "When Saddam invaded Kuwait, America kicked him out, maintaining energy stability." [12:22]

Carlson challenges this by arguing that similar motivations underlie current support for Ukraine, which lacks clear democratic legitimacy, thereby framing it as hypocritical and self-serving.

• Carlson: "We're supporting my government and your government are supporting this dictator in Ukraine." [07:05]

They further discuss NATO's role, with Carlson asserting that NATO's expansion has directly led to increased tensions with Russia, while Morgan defends NATO as a defensive organization aimed at maintaining peace.

• Morgan: "NATO is a defensive organization and has never acted proactively, aggressively." [27:14]
• Carlson: "NATO's actions have led to the bloodiest war in 80 years in the middle of Europe." [25:56]

5. Support for Israel vs. Ukraine

[35:06 – 38:14]

The debate shifts to U.S. foreign aid, specifically comparing support for Israel against Hamas and aid to Ukraine. Morgan questions why the U.S. continues to support Israel despite geographic and strategic differences compared to Ukraine.

• Morgan: "Why do you support America supporting Israel against Hamas but not Ukraine against Russia?" [36:57]

Carlson responds by emphasizing that U.S. foreign policy should solely serve American interests, suggesting that support for Israel is conditional on direct benefits to the U.S., unlike the seemingly unconditional support for Ukraine.

• Carlson: "Every element of our foreign policy should serve the United States." [41:21]

The inconsistency in support is a focal point, with Carlson arguing that aid should be scrutinized based on national interest rather than ideological alliances.

6. NATO’s Defensive vs. Offensive Role

[27:12 – 35:41]

Piers Morgan defends NATO's actions in the Balkans as defensive operations aimed at preventing atrocities, while Carlson contends that NATO has often acted aggressively, exemplified by the intervention in Yugoslavia.

• Morgan: "NATO has always operated in a defensive capacity." [27:32]
• Carlson: "They created Kosovo defensively? NATO was the aggressor there." [27:34]

Carlson criticizes NATO for what he perceives as unilateral and aggressive actions that contradict its defensive mandate, arguing that these interventions destabilize regions and contribute to conflicts like the one in Ukraine.

7. The Balance of Power and Global Strategy

[35:35 – 39:12]

Carlson argues for a realist approach to global politics, emphasizing the importance of maintaining a balance of power and preventing alliances between major powers like Russia and China.

• Carlson: "If the west finds itself in a place where it's got a much smaller collective economy and a much less powerful collective military than the east, then we're in serious trouble." [35:35]

Morgan challenges this by highlighting the moral imperatives of supporting democracies and resisting authoritarian aggression, but Carlson remains steadfast in prioritizing national interests over ideological battles.

8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[39:12 – End]

As the debate intensifies, both Carlson and Morgan struggle to find common ground. Carlson remains firm in his stance that U.S. foreign policy should be strictly interest-based, whereas Morgan advocates for moral responsibility in supporting allies and resisting aggression.

The episode concludes without a clear resolution, highlighting the deep ideological divide between the hosts on issues of foreign aid, leadership legitimacy, and global strategy.

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Notable Quotes:

• Carlson: "Zelensky is a hero. How could you say." [00:26]
• Morgan: "We have to make a calculation about whether we're happy with Russia invading." [07:05]
• Carlson: "NATO's actions have led to the bloodiest war in 80 years in the middle of Europe." [25:56]
• Morgan: "America shouldn't intervene unless it directly serves our interests." [Various]
• Carlson: "Every element of our foreign policy should serve the United States." [41:21]

Key Takeaways:

• Legitimacy of Leadership: The debate centers on whether leaders like Zelenskyy and Putin should be considered dictators based on their methods of governance and election legitimacy.
• U.S. Foreign Policy Consistency: Carlson criticizes perceived inconsistencies in U.S. foreign policy, particularly the support for Ukraine versus Israel, arguing for strict alignment with national interests.
• Role of NATO: A significant portion of the debate focuses on NATO's true role—defensive or aggressive—and its impact on global conflicts.
• Balance of Power: Carlson emphasizes the importance of maintaining a strategic balance of power, warning against alliances that could empower adversarial blocs like Russia and China.

This episode provides a compelling exploration of contrasting viewpoints on international relations and U.S. foreign policy, offering listeners a thorough examination of complex global issues through the lens of two influential commentators.

Transcript

[Tucker Carlson]

Piers Morgan. Thank you. Sorry. Telling off color jokes off camera. Thank you so much.

[Piers Morgan]

No, my pleasure.

[Tucker Carlson]

We are in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

[Piers Morgan]

We are.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm not even gonna ask you how you wound up here, but I'm glad to see you.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, we're both here for the same reason, actually.

[Tucker Carlson]

We've both gone into the oil business.

[Piers Morgan]

Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

I never. Yeah. So I want to ask you, I want to start just on a very hostile note. Okay. Because I feel like that's a good way to frame that. Good.

[Piers Morgan]

Let's start with. Immediately, continue.

[Tucker Carlson]

Zelensky is a hero. How could you say.

[Piers Morgan]

I don't agree with you about him or Ukraine? I went, I went to interview him in, In Kiev and is an extraordinary story. Obviously, this comedian who becomes president having played a. The piano comedian who was a president in a comedy show. Right. And I've seen what you said about it. I mean, what's interesting to me on a bigger picture about Ukraine, Russia, your views, a lot of conservative views in America is that 30 years ago, there would have been no element of resistance from the conservative side about taking on a Russian dictator who'd invaded a European country. I know it's a lot more complicated. I know the history, but a lot of very smart people on a lot of people you've interviewed and, you know, I do learn a lot each time I talk to them about all the history. Obviously, my brother was a British army colonel. My sister married a British army colonel. They've all engaged in conflicts around, around the world. And so it's complicated. There's no doubt that on the Russian side, they believe they were provoked into doing this. I know that you have sympathy with that view. There's also no doubt from the Ukrainian side that they believe since the 90s, they've been this sovereign, democratic country, albeit not perfect, you think deeply flawed. I think they've been imperfect, trying to improve. And Zelensky has actually, I think, been a force for good. Not bad. But ultimately, what's happened now is that you have a situation. Whereas Donald Trump told me recently, you know, the. It's just the mowing fields now where you have thousands of young men being killed, often on a daily basis on both sides, and no one's winning this war, it seems to me, and if anyone is going to win it, it's likely to be Russia, not Ukraine. And then what happens? And that concerns me enormously. If the west allows Putin to just take the land he's taken, what guarantee do we have he won't try and take the rest of Ukraine. He took Crimea. He's back for more. I think he wants the whole of Ukraine. I think he won't stop there if he's allowed to get it. I think he's a pretty ruthless, evil Russian dictator.

[Tucker Carlson]

How are we defining just to find the term so we can follow the same thing? What's a dictator?

[Piers Morgan]

A dictator, to me, is somebody. Well, I would start by saying you have no respect for democratic norms. A free and fair election.

[Tucker Carlson]

So, like, an unelected leader would be a dictator?

[Piers Morgan]

Well, you wouldn't argue that Putin, for example, has free and fair elections.

[Tucker Carlson]

No, I. I've never. I'm not that interested, actually, you know, in. Not really. It's not my country. I'm interested in my leaders, whether, you know, they have the consent of. Of their people. It's not of great interest to me whether I. I do think Putin's, like, way more popular than, you know, Joe Biden to his people. Yes. More popular in Russia than Biden was ever popular.

[Piers Morgan]

I wouldn't dispute that. But why are you so against Zelenskyy?

[Tucker Carlson]

No, I'm just trying to understand when you. You dismiss Putin as a dictator, which. Totally fair, I guess, but I'm just trying to understand what you mean by dictator. So the first criterion for dictatorship is that you're not elected. And what else? Because Zelensky's obviously not elected either. Yeah. So I'm just trying to kind of figure out what you're talking about.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, your comparison with Zelenskyy and Putin over the last two years, I found baffling because you seem to think there's some moral equivalence between the two, and Zelenskyy hasn't illegally invaded another country. Do you not have a problem with what?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, hold on. I just want to know what a dictator is. I just want to know. I mean. I mean, you know, maybe he's a better guy than Putin or whatever, and you could say some things about one or not the other, but, like, if we're just gonna define dictator, the first feature of a dictator is he's not elected. So Zelensky's not elected. He's also. Well, he's banned a religious denomination. He's murdered his political opponents. He has banned a language group. Those all seem like features of dictatorship to me. Now he has the support of the British intelligence agencies. That doesn't mean he's not a dictator, though. That sounds like a dictator. I mean, if it was. If I gave you a piece of paper and I'm like, here are some qualities of a European Leader, you would say, well, that guy, that's not legitimate. That guy's a dictator. I can't support that. But his name's Zelensky and he was once a comedian, and he does my show. So he's not a dictator. I think it's a dictator.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, I would argue that if you look at the history of Ukraine since the 90s, since it became a want of a better phrase, democratic country, as they would say. Well, I mean, by the same criteria, you support Putin being popular in his country. I think just under 90% of Ukrainians voted for it. You wouldn't dispute that.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, first of all, the country had a coup sponsored by the United states government, the CIA, in 2014. So everything that happened subsequent to that, I don't think we could call part of the democratic process. But just Zelensky personally is not elected. He's not an elected leader. He rules by force. There's no election that gives him legitimacy. So that's not a defense of Putin. It's merely an attack on the idea that Putin's the only dictator in this contest. How is Zelenskyy not a dictator?

[Piers Morgan]

Do you think Putin's a dictator?

[Tucker Carlson]

I guess, yeah. I mean, I guess. I mean, if I stand up outside the Kremlin and say, down with Vladimir Putin, I'm possibly in trouble. That's why I don't live in Russia.

[Piers Morgan]

Right. I certainly think that Ukraine has had a lot of corruption.

[Tucker Carlson]

No, no, but is Zelenskyy legitimate? How is he legitimate if he's not elected? How could you support an unelected leader?

[Piers Morgan]

Well, he's the president of a country.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, he calls himself that, but there's no election that made him president. He blew past the election and said, oh, there's a war. I can't. We can't have an election. We're gonna change the constitution. So how is that a legitimate leader? How could you support something like that that seems, I don't know, like a dictatorship?

[Piers Morgan]

Well, I would categorize my support for him as supporting him against an illegal invasion by Russia.

[Tucker Carlson]

So this is. This is like why we support Stalin against Hitler, because, well, in a way.

[Piers Morgan]

We have those bad.

[Tucker Carlson]

So Stalin wants to be good. But, no, Stalin's also a dictator. So, like, how about we just don't support dictators if we're against supporting dictators? Or you could take my position, which is, I don't want a dictatorship in my own country because I live in a free country, but we're going to have relations with the country that helps us Most up to a certain limit. We're not going to, like, be allies with Stalin, because that's too evil. We're not, you know, Winston Churchill or, you know, FDR or something. We're not gonna go that far. But in general, we will deal with countries that help us. But when we start having moral conversations about other countries, then we have to stick by our own standards. And by your standard, you're supporting a dictator. I wonder how you can do that. Pierce. Born.

[Piers Morgan]

I'm not saying they're morally pure in Ukraine. I'm not saying they're not riddled with.

[Tucker Carlson]

But how is he not a dictator?

[Piers Morgan]

No, no, here's my point to you. My defense of the bloodthirsty dictator.

[Tucker Carlson]

Bloodthirsty dictator.

[Piers Morgan]

My defense of them is based on the illegal invasion by Russia. You and I can argue about whether Russia was goaded and provoked into doing that. I do not think anything justifies what they actually did.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay. That's a totally fair position. I mean, I guess I disagree, sort of, but I don't think what you're saying is crazy at all.

[Piers Morgan]

But the point I was making, how.

[Tucker Carlson]

Is that more illegal than running a country without an election and banning a religious denomination? I don't understand that. So, yeah, you could certainly say Putin did a lot of bad things. I would readily agree to that from the extent. To the extent I understand it. But we're supporting my government, and your government particularly are supporting this dictator in Ukraine who's oppressing Christians, who is banning people's native language and books in their native language. He's a book burner. And, like, that's totally cool because we hate Putin. That's not totally cool, is it?

[Piers Morgan]

So would you just let Putin take Ukraine?

[Tucker Carlson]

I would say, let's have an election in Ukraine and let the Ukrainian people elect their own leader and get rid of the midget dictator who now oppresses them. Zelenskyy. And I would definitely not support a guy who's not elected as a democratic figure, because by definition, he's not. By definition, I don't care who his enemies are. He's not worth calling a beacon of democracy if he doesn't even have. Why not have an election in Ukraine today? Because we've got a war. We had elections in our country during the Second World War. So did you, like, why not hold him to democratic standards?

[Piers Morgan]

I've got no problem with saying he should have an election.

[Tucker Carlson]

What about banning a Christian denomination?

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, I don't agree with any of those things.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, how could we ever support that.

[Piers Morgan]

Because ultimately we're paying for that. Because ultimately we have to make a calculation about whether we're happy with Russia invading. What is a sovereign European democratic country in the same.

[Tucker Carlson]

Not a sovereign country. It was controlled by the United States. Well, they installed their government in a coup in 2014. They're a puppet of the United States and Great Britain. They're not sovereign.

[Piers Morgan]

Do you think they're a democracy?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, their leader's not elected, so by definition, they're not a democracy. It may be a great place to vacation, or they've got, you know, we're getting a lot of money from, you know, defense deals, or they've got pretty women. Lots of great things you could say about the Ukrainians. They're actually great people, from what I can tell. I know a bunch of them. They're awesome, but they're definitely not a democracy.

[Piers Morgan]

Should Putin just take the land?

[Tucker Carlson]

No.

[Piers Morgan]

So what happens?

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't know. We should stop paying for the slaughter of the entire Ukrainian population because he don't know.

[Piers Morgan]

I mean, either he's allowed to take it or he isn't. Either we now say, yes, you take it.

[Tucker Carlson]

Why is it up to us? I don't understand. We're not.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, who else can stop it?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, I don't know. I mean, when, you know, Congo invades its neighbors, like, it's not axiomatic that we should be involved.

[Piers Morgan]

When Saddam invaded Kuwait, why did America go and support that?

[Tucker Carlson]

Because there's oil.

[Piers Morgan]

Did you support that?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, I was in college and drunk.

[Piers Morgan]

Did you basically agree with that?

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah, I mean, I had a lot of storming.

[Piers Morgan]

Storming.

[Tucker Carlson]

Norman Swarzegos, okay to drink beer in the morning.

[Piers Morgan]

Do you think, looking back at it, was it right to do what America did with the allies? British were there, too. I don't know, expel him from Kuwait. It wasn't a NATO country.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, that was. I mean, that's the kind of war that, in theory, I would support. You say we have, you know, energy interests in this region. We want to keep it stable. When you start getting theoretical, like we're preserving democracy by supporting dictators, we'd say energy from.

[Piers Morgan]

From Ukraine, though. This is an energy component to that.

[Tucker Carlson]

Maybe. I don't see them.

[Piers Morgan]

What I'm thinking is that the.

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't like is the moral overlay because it's fatuous and fraudulent. He's not. This is not a democratic country. He is a dictator. We've supported many dictators. We've supported Mobutu in Zaire, which no longer exists. Because he was a bulwark against the Soviets. We thought, in a million others.

[Piers Morgan]

But you've already said that you would support the expulsion of Saddam from Kuwait.

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't know that I would.

[Piers Morgan]

Led by America. Well, you just said you did. Right, so.

[Tucker Carlson]

No, I said I was drunk in college. I haven't really thought. I said. But theoretically, you could make the case because they had energy states. We need cheap energy. We're going to go to war to preserve cheap energy. You know, that's not a crazy thing to say. Maybe I could support that.

[Piers Morgan]

Right. So what's the difference? I don't think that. And what's happened with Russia and Ukraine?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, because we need Ukraine's energy.

[Piers Morgan]

We need Ukraine's wheat. We do. 25% of the world's wheat comes out of Ukraine.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm aware. Which is why you probably don't want to kill all of its farmers and sell all of its farmland, which is what we've allowed to happen. Zelensky.

[Piers Morgan]

We don't get him. The Russians are.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, no, this war wouldn't exist if it weren't for the money in arms that we're sending to Ukraine. It would have been over in one day. It never would have started. If we hadn't said.

[Piers Morgan]

When you say over, what do you mean? What would have happened?

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't think. I think it's very clear, and I don't know that anyone would disagree with this, that Russia would not have invaded Eastern Ukraine if the Biden administration hadn't sent Kamala Harris to the Munich Security Conference in February of 2022 to say to Zelensky on camera, we're gonna make you a NATO country, meaning we're gonna put American NATO arms on the Russian border. Like, you would not allow Chinese. Your country probably would, but you shouldn't allow Chinese missiles in Scotland. Peering over Hadrian's Wall, aimed at London. You'd be like, no, it's our. You know, you can't do that on our border. And the Russians like, no, you can't do that in our border. And we're like, shut up. You're Russian. You have no right to determine what happens on your border. Piss off. Actually happened.

[Piers Morgan]

But my point is, if the defense of expelling Saddam Hussein from Kuwait was that we have energy interests in that.

[Tucker Carlson]

Country, no one ever said that.

[Piers Morgan]

And therefore we should kick him out. But that's obviously what we all knew, and it was done very quickly and competently by General Norman Schwarzkopf. And it was great, great military operation. But surely the Principle and ideology is not different. And what's interest every. Well, every Republican, every Republican back in.

[Tucker Carlson]

They're idiots. They support the Ukraine.

[Piers Morgan]

Hang on. No, I mean every Republican in 91 would have supported that conflict.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, whether or not Republican members of the Senate support something is supportive. I can browse.

[Piers Morgan]

Every Republican voter I think would have supported it 35 years ago.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm just saying.

[Piers Morgan]

So what's changed is a lot of Republican supporters now conservatives in America are against supporting Ukraine anymore. And I'm curious about that change in what has been, what, 35 years? There's been a real sea change. And it may be because Americans are understandably war weary. They're fed up with spending a lot of money on foreign wars, foreign conflicts. There's a good argument. America hasn't really won a foreign war since World War II. You know, you look at from Vietnam onwards, endless quagmires, endless problems. Iraq, Afghanistan and so on and so on. And I look at what's happened in Ukraine and I'm just looking at it pragmatically. Do we just let a Russian. Do we let Russia, led at the moment by Vladimir Putin, who I would categorize as a dictator, or do we let him just take what he wants, even if he uses it and dresses it all up as. I'm doing this because I fear about NATO encroachment, which may well be. May well be his reasoning. May well be his reasoning. But many people think it's not his reasoning.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay, many people think, why would you want to put U.S. missiles? Because Russia's border.

[Piers Morgan]

I just understand because so obviously acceptable.

[Tucker Carlson]

For any sovereign nation to tolerate.

[Piers Morgan]

Here's the other part of the argument.

[Tucker Carlson]

He has nuclear weapons. Why would we want that?

[Piers Morgan]

A lot of people use. Well, we have nuclear weapons too. A lot of the argument.

[Tucker Carlson]

You guys have nuclear weapons?

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, we do. Yes, we have nuclear weapons.

[Tucker Carlson]

Why?

[Piers Morgan]

Why? Nuclear deterrent.

[Tucker Carlson]

Great Britain has nuclear weapons.

[Piers Morgan]

Yes, we do.

[Tucker Carlson]

Do you think that's a good idea?

[Piers Morgan]

Yes, absolutely.

[Tucker Carlson]

You know why it's freaking me out?

[Piers Morgan]

If Ukraine had nuclear weapons, they wouldn't have been invaded. Can we agree on that? We told them to give up their nuclear deterrent invaded.

[Tucker Carlson]

If the west hadn't said we're going to use you as a staging ground for intimidating Russia, like, why would we want to do that? Why not just allow. What we've done is pushed Russia into the Chinese.

[Piers Morgan]

And many people would say, how does that help us? Many people in that region say, actually what's happened to Ukraine is precisely what. Why they should have been in NATO, because if they had been in NATO, Putin wouldn't have invaded them.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay.

[Piers Morgan]

And also, they say, People say that also say if we hadn't collectively basically bullied Ukraine into giving up their nuclear deterrent, he wouldn't have done it either, because they would have had a nuclear weapon to defend themselves.

[Tucker Carlson]

This is super crazy.

[Piers Morgan]

Is it crazy?

[Tucker Carlson]

Yes, it is crazier than your theories. Well, actually, I. I don't, I don't. I don't think. I mean, I have a million theories, but these are not among them. It's not a theory to say that Russia moved into eastern Ukraine because the United States wouldn't give up on pushing for Ukraine admission into NATO when NATO did not want Ukraine. The criteria for admission. So.

[Piers Morgan]

But I think you're only giving half a picture. I'm not, I'm not oblivious to that. But I would add this component to it, which is also not surely beyond the realms of fantasy. Vladimir Putin knows that a lot of that part of eastern Ukraine, they still speak Russian. He has resented the breakup of the Soviet Union famously, and that actually he wanted to take back land that he believes should have. Should belong to Russia. Should belong to Russia.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay.

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[Piers Morgan]

Okay. Do you accept that?

[Tucker Carlson]

I think it's true of. Look, I'm not an expert. I've interviewed Putin. You know, I've been there a couple of times. I don't speak Russian, so I hope I don't get over my skis and pretend to know things that I don't. But what's very obvious is they have an interest and have for over 300 years in controlling Crimea. Crimea, where their fleet is based. They had a referendum in Crimea. The people of Crimea are Russian and want to remain part of the Russian Federation. So he didn't take Crimea. It's Russian. It's filled with Russians. They had a referendum that nobody disputes. People should be allowed to choose their own government. That's the basic precept of democracy.

[Piers Morgan]

You did take Crimea.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay. Should people be allowed to choose their own government?

[Piers Morgan]

Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay, so the people of Crimea voted overwhelmingly to align with the Russian government. So that's illegitimate. Why?

[Piers Morgan]

When did they do that?

[Tucker Carlson]

Right after the coup in 15, I think.

[Piers Morgan]

Right. So after they've been invaded. Why do you think. Why do you think. Why do you think so many Russians vote for Putin in Russia?

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't think it was invaded. Russia has controlled Crimea for 300 years.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, but it was.

[Tucker Carlson]

It is Russians.

[Piers Morgan]

It wasn't. It wasn't Russia's. And in the same way that that. That you say with. The people of Crimea voted overwhelming in favor. Of course they did. They would have been killed if they hadn't. Same way as in Russia.

[Tucker Carlson]

In a secret ballot.

[Piers Morgan]

The same way Russia.

[Tucker Carlson]

Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. So you're saying that the election was conducted duress and people's votes were known to the Russian government? I don't think that's true.

[Piers Morgan]

I'm saying it's exactly the same way that people in Russia vote for Putin. You think it's an overwhelming show of support for him? A lot of it is driven by fear.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay, that may or be true, I don't know. But you don't think that's fair. The only measure we have of popular consent is an election. And when conducted by secret ballot, if we think it's not being. It's not the 2020 election, it's like kind of a legitimate election. That's what we go with. And I'm just. Is there. Have you ever met anybody who believes that if a free and fair Referendum were held once again in Ukraine, that Ukraine would vote. The Ukraine, I mean, rather than Crimeans would vote to align with the Zelenskyy government in Kyiv. I don't think so. It was 97%. Look, I'm just saying self determination is the core idea in democracy. They don't have it in Ukraine because they haven't had an election. They ignore the election because it's run by a dictator called Zelenskyy. If you wanted to say he's a dictator, that's fine. You support a dictator. The US Your government has supported many dictators. So is mine. That's kind of a fact of life. There are very few democratically elected leaders. Sometimes even our leaders aren't really democratically elected, as you know. I just don't like the moral bullshit that attaches to all of this.

[Piers Morgan]

That's fair enough.

[Tucker Carlson]

Where we tell the population we're on the side of democracy and he's Winston Churchill.

[Piers Morgan]

I don't claim. I don't claim it's Mother Teresa against him.

[Tucker Carlson]

No, but you have, though. You've, like, he's a marvelous person.

[Piers Morgan]

I like him. I'm allowed to honor, I guess.

[Tucker Carlson]

You like dictators. I've never said a Putin. He's a marvelous person because, like, it's a little dictatory for me. I think he's really smart. I admire what he's done to Russia, but I'm not gonna sniff his jock. Cause he's kind of a dictator. But you're like, oh, I love that Zelensky. He's so great.

[Piers Morgan]

I do like him.

[Tucker Carlson]

How can you like a man who's a dictator?

[Piers Morgan]

I don't think he's a dictator.

[Tucker Carlson]

In what sense? He's not elected. He rules by force. He rules with guns. He kills his opponents. He's assassinated a ton of people, including, you know, I know. Someone he tried to assassinate. Fact. How is that worth supporting? Do you feel a little guilty for supporting someone?

[Piers Morgan]

No, I don't.

[Tucker Carlson]

Really?

[Piers Morgan]

No. I think we should try and do more to help him win.

[Tucker Carlson]

How rich do you think he's gotten from this?

[Piers Morgan]

I have no idea.

[Tucker Carlson]

Does it bother you that he's gotten rich?

[Piers Morgan]

He's not as rich as Vladimir Putin.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, I mean, if all comparisons are to Putin, then all bets are off.

[Piers Morgan]

Putin is. Putin is financially raped and pillaged his.

[Tucker Carlson]

Country for maybe, I don't know.

[Piers Morgan]

Maybe.

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't. Okay, let's see.

[Piers Morgan]

He's got a personal net worth of 100 billion ripples.

[Tucker Carlson]

How we would know that? But great. He does. He's Evil. We'll just. We'll just stick with that. But the question is, why would you support personally a dictator who's gotten rich on a war in his country, who bans a Christian denomination, and who murders.

[Piers Morgan]

His political would he literally only been.

[Tucker Carlson]

Does that bother you at all?

[Piers Morgan]

Well, he'd been in his country for two years.

[Tucker Carlson]

He's done a lot of oppression in two years.

[Piers Morgan]

He didn't get rich on corruption in two years.

[Tucker Carlson]

But can I ask you when you talked his last.

[Piers Morgan]

Been doing this for 30 years.

[Tucker Carlson]

Why don't you have an election? Why don't you stop murdering your political opponents? Why don't you let people practice their Christian denomination? Why don't you let Russian speakers speak Russian and read Russian books? That's what non dictators do.

[Piers Morgan]

Did you say any of that to Putin?

[Tucker Carlson]

Of course not.

[Piers Morgan]

Why not?

[Tucker Carlson]

Because I'm not his friend. I don't have the relationship with Putin that you have with Zelensky. I didn't tweet after my interview. You're a very handsome man. I love you. I love you.

[Piers Morgan]

I didn't call him a very handsome man, although I think you did. I don't think he's a very handsome man.

[Advertiser]

Hot.

[Tucker Carlson]

Hot is maybe what you said.

[Piers Morgan]

I don't think I called him hot.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay, well, you said, I really admire you, and I think.

[Piers Morgan]

But you asking me to ask all the questions Zelensky, you didn't ask.

[Tucker Carlson]

He's a personal friend of yours. I'm friends with Putin. I'm a guy who's personal friends with Zelensky.

[Piers Morgan]

I admire.

[Tucker Carlson]

Read your Twitter feed.

[Piers Morgan]

I admire him.

[Tucker Carlson]

You can't fool me, period.

[Piers Morgan]

You can't miscategorize me. I'm not a friend of his. I've only met him once. But I do admire his fortitude as a leader. I love the fact he stayed in Kiev when the Russians went in. He could have fled. Many would have done that position. Everyone thought the Russians would win in a few days. Yeah, they didn't.

[Tucker Carlson]

I agree.

[Piers Morgan]

I do admire the fortitude that he showed as a lead, a leader. Those characteristics I like.

[Tucker Carlson]

Doesn't mean you called him a magnificent leader. In fact, I'm pretty sure I think he has been. Okay, so I'm just asking, since I didn't call Putin a magnificent leader at all.

[Piers Morgan]

But nor did you ask him any of the questions that you want me to ask.

[Tucker Carlson]

I didn't feel like I didn't want to do what everybody does, which is you're so bad. Vladimir Putin, meaning I'm so Good. I'm going to give you a moral extra. I'm like, whatever, it's your country. Country's actually doing great. I was super impressed by Moscow. I recommend it to everybody just because it's beautiful and orderly, which I like not moving there. They don't have freedom of speech, which is a prerequisite for me. But I didn't feel like that was my job. I just want to hear what the guy says. We're fighting a war against him and no one's heard him speak.

[Piers Morgan]

Why do you believe him?

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't know that I do.

[Piers Morgan]

Do you know you believe his reasoning?

[Tucker Carlson]

I believe some things.

[Piers Morgan]

You believe the reasoning for the war. You're fully all in on the Russian.

[Tucker Carlson]

There's kind of no question about that.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, the question.

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't really think so. I don't think any informed person. I mean, Bill Burns, only 10% of.

[Piers Morgan]

People in Eastern Ukraine actually want Russia to take them over.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay. I don't know how we know that, but I believe that. But it doesn't.

[Piers Morgan]

It's a poll. Same poll. You're quoting me about Crimea.

[Tucker Carlson]

It was a poll. It was an election. Which are critical to democracy. I don't know if you knew that.

[Piers Morgan]

But the vast majority.

[Tucker Carlson]

You're a magnificent leader.

[Piers Morgan]

An election is a poll. They're called polls.

[Tucker Carlson]

An election is a poll. A poll is not an election. Right, so there are different criteria for polls.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, a poll can be an election. Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

Now we're getting metaphysical. But I would just say. I would just say if you believe in democracy, you believe in elections. If you have a leader who's not elected, he's not a democratic leader, he's a dictator, which is. Okay, that's fine. It's a foreign country. I wouldn't call any dictator magnificent just because it seems a little.

[Piers Morgan]

How could Zelensky have an election in the middle of a war? Out of interest?

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't know. How did, how did Franklin Roosevelt do that in the middle of the Second World War? How did he do that?

[Piers Morgan]

Because no one had invaded America. Okay, well, but how about the people could actually vote? Well, you've got half of half of.

[Tucker Carlson]

Ukraine making billions of dollars in Kiev today. How about the non occupied parts of the country just make a good faith effort to have an election. But he doesn't want to because I think he's pretty darn unpopular. Because he is a lackey of western powers who sold his country out. And Ukrainians know perfectly well that he's getting rich and so is the entire leadership. I was in Courchevel, France, two weeks ago, which is probably the richest town in Europe. It's a ski town in France near Geneva. And everybody at the Hermes store was Ukrainian, using my money to buy $100,000 handbags. Nobody seems to care about that. I care because that's not freedom fighting, that's grifting. That's theft. And everybody in Europe knows that. And you know that too. You go to Romania, all their, you know, high end car dealerships are sold out because Ukrainians have bought the car.

[Piers Morgan]

So to be clear, when.

[Tucker Carlson]

What the hell is this?

[Piers Morgan]

So, okay, well, so when Putin invaded Ukraine, you'd have given him what he wants. Take whatever you want.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, as I've, as I've said, and I really mean it from my heart, I mean, I have no kind of. I'm not getting rich from this. So I'm saying what I sincerely believe, which is pushing Ukraine to join NATO when NATO doesn't want Ukraine. There's no strategic reason, no actual reason to have Ukraine or to have NATO at all. We shouldn't have NATO at all.

[Piers Morgan]

That's preposterous.

[Tucker Carlson]

What's the point of NATO? To keep the Soviets from invading Western Europe. Oh, well, it's been 35 years since they.

[Piers Morgan]

To keep peace.

[Tucker Carlson]

How's that worked? To keep peace. We now have the bloodiest war in 80 years in the middle of Europe because of NATO. So how's this peacekeeping?

[Piers Morgan]

Or you could argue, as many people do that actually the reason is because Ukraine wasn't in NATO. Had it been, Putin wouldn't have invaded.

[Tucker Carlson]

This is super crazy. This is like an addiction. And I've been through addiction, so I'm not judging at all. But it's like, I feel really shitty. I've got to have a glass of vodka to feel better.

[Piers Morgan]

Are you mocking my mental health?

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm.

[Piers Morgan]

Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

But I'm also saying that I've lived this so I know what it feels like. It's the thing that is killing you. It's truly killing you. Whether it's NATO or vodka, you become convinced it's saving you. So you wake up hungover and you're like, oh, I feel so bad. Give me a screwdriver. And if a screwdriver, you feel better and you don't realize that you're starting the cycle again.

[Piers Morgan]

Would Putin have invaded Ukraine if it had been a member of NATO? No, he wouldn't have done. Because then America would have been obliged.

[Tucker Carlson]

To put, here's what I know for a fact. Putin said this For 20 years Ukraine cannot be a member of NATO. They will not accept that anymore. That we would accept Chinese missiles in Tijuana or you would accept Sri Lankan missiles in Glasgow. You're just not going to say that.

[Piers Morgan]

NATO is a defensive organization.

[Tucker Carlson]

How is it defensive?

[Piers Morgan]

Because it has never acted proactively, aggressively.

[Tucker Carlson]

Where were you when the Yugoslavia war was going on and they were bombing the shit out of Christians in Yugoslavia? Do you remember that? Yes, that was pretty offensive.

[Piers Morgan]

NATO has always operated in a defensive capacity. How would.

[Tucker Carlson]

Really? Yes, that's how they created Kosovo. Defensively.

[Piers Morgan]

It was defensive.

[Tucker Carlson]

Oh, it was?

[Piers Morgan]

Yes, it was.

[Tucker Carlson]

It was the aggressor there.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, no, my brother in law was literally there.

[Tucker Carlson]

Just a minute, just a minute. What you're saying is insane.

[Piers Morgan]

It's not insane. NATO has never actually acted unilaterally. Soviet has never attacked anybody without being attacked. It's always been defensive.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay, who in Yugoslavia attacked NATO? Look, just note, here's the point where you just submit defeat, bow your head and be like, I bow before superior knowledge. I totally got this wrong. I can't believe I had such a silly idea. I'm so.

[Piers Morgan]

You think nice, good guys in Yugoslavia.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm saying they're nice good guys.

[Piers Morgan]

We're just saying that was not a.

[Tucker Carlson]

Defensive action, that was an offensive action. Bill Clinton's like, I don't like what you're doing. I'm going to use NATO to kill you. And he did. And then created Kosovo as a NATO.

[Piers Morgan]

Base because they were absolute genocidal.

[Tucker Carlson]

They may have been naughty. I'm not defending their.

[Piers Morgan]

But that's what they were being defended against.

[Tucker Carlson]

Who are we defending?

[Piers Morgan]

The Yugoslavians that were being pillaged and.

[Tucker Carlson]

Raped and murdered by other Yugoslavians?

[Piers Morgan]

Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay, this is getting intense.

[Piers Morgan]

But NATO is a defensive organization.

[Tucker Carlson]

You can say it all you want. Just like you can say Zelensky's a beacon of democracy when he's not elected and he's banning parts of Christianity, but he's a dictator.

[Piers Morgan]

So just to be clear, just to.

[Tucker Carlson]

Be honest about what things are, just.

[Piers Morgan]

To be clear, you would have let Putin take what he wants because what's the alternative? When he invaded Ukraine?

[Tucker Carlson]

So I try and deal, especially as I get older, in the world of reality and achievable goals. And here's the reality. Russia is a nuclear armed power. It's the largest country on earth by land mass. It's also the remnants of a global empire. So they have a sense of themselves as a global player. And they are because of energy and resources in general. Uranium. I Mean, they have a lot of resources the world needs. So they're a real country. They're not Afghanistan. You can't just tell them what to do. Get in line, bitch. They're not going to accept that, okay? So they have said since the fall of the Soviet Union, you cannot have NATO on our border because it's a critical national interest of ours. So unless you want to risk nuclear war, which we are now doing, you can't move NATO to their border whether you want to or not. That's just a fact. And if you do, you're going to get a war. We've known that since the fall of the Soviet Union. And we promise not to do it. And we tried to bring. He asked to be in NATO. In 2000, he asked George W. Bush to be NATO. Nobody contests that. This evil dictator who wants to invade Liechtenstein asked to be in NATO. Why wouldn't we let him in NATO? Why did Condi Rice say, well, it can't be in NATO. Why do we have morons like Condi Rice in our US Government? I don't know.

[Piers Morgan]

So when he invaded there, what would you let him do?

[Tucker Carlson]

We're in a hall of mirrors.

[Piers Morgan]

Now, look, not really.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay?

[Piers Morgan]

We're in a very clear moral.

[Tucker Carlson]

We.

[Piers Morgan]

Moral moment in history where Vladimir Putin invades Ukraine. It is a European country, and we side with it.

[Tucker Carlson]

Has been independent from Russia since the mid-90s. Assassinate people.

[Piers Morgan]

But what do you do?

[Tucker Carlson]

Do you learn to take something moral about this? Look, in the real world, we do things we can't achieve. And if we can't achieve something, we don't try and do it because millions will die as we're watching.

[Piers Morgan]

What do you let him do that?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, you start with a realistic understanding of the limits of your power, which is all adults have to do. My neighbors may offend me. I want them to turn down the music. I can't just go over there and shoot them. I just can't. It's against the law, and I'll pay a penalty if I do that. So I have to negotiate with them. Will you please turn down the music? Shut up. No, please do it. If they won't maybe threaten them, like, I live in the material real world, right?

[Piers Morgan]

But once. Once actually, he's invaded, what do you do?

[Tucker Carlson]

Then you have to decide, like, is it worth it? Is it worth it?

[Piers Morgan]

So that's interesting to me.

[Tucker Carlson]

A million Ukrainians are gonna die. Their farmland's gonna be sold to BlackRock. The Ukrainian nation will cease to exist. They'll flood it with third Worlders.

[Piers Morgan]

So what do you do? What do you do?

[Tucker Carlson]

What would I do?

[Piers Morgan]

Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

I would say, like, if I took over the government in January of 2022, and we're on the verge of a Russian invasion of Ukraine, I would say, guys, it's not worth trying to impose something that this country will never accept, because if we try to do that, we'll get a war.

[Piers Morgan]

So do you let Putin take Ukraine?

[Tucker Carlson]

You don't let anybody do anything you realistically assess.

[Piers Morgan]

You either do or you don't, because.

[Tucker Carlson]

You'Re gambling with the other people's lives. By the way, if. If a million Brits had died, you might have different perspective, but it's very easy to be like, oh, more Ukrainians should die for the cause of democracy.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me assure you, if Russia invaded Britain, that would not be the view of the British people. Our view would be to fight to the last man and woman to kick him out. But my question really is, you really think so?

[Tucker Carlson]

My question is, you just got invaded over the last 40 years and did nothing. So I don't think so. I don't think you would do that. I think you'd be like, we can't fight back because we have nuclear weapons but no real military. So we'd, like, negotiate. Just like all conquered nations do. They negotiate on the basis of reality. What can I actually achieve?

[Piers Morgan]

But respectfully, you're not answering my question, which you don't have to because you're interviewing me in this bit. But the question is, once Putin invaded, do you let him take the whole country? What do you do?

[Tucker Carlson]

If I were in charge.

[Piers Morgan]

Yes.

[Tucker Carlson]

If I had come in. If I came in In January of 2022, I would say to the State Department, I would say to the NATO leadership.

[Piers Morgan]

Oh, I'm talking about February, end of February, early March.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm cleaning up a mess caused by the previous administration.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah. So assume it's happened.

[Tucker Carlson]

Let's say I'm Donald Trump, who's actually coming in in that exact circumstance. Right.

[Piers Morgan]

And is now wrestling with this very problem.

[Tucker Carlson]

He certainly is. And it's.

[Piers Morgan]

He doesn't want to give Putin the win. And that's my point to you. Do you actually want him to win?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, I mean, if your lodestar is whether other people win, you will lose.

[Piers Morgan]

Right.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay. That's a shitty way to go through life. If I'm trying to prevent you a win. No, I'm trying to win. I'm trying to win for my wife, my children, my neighborhood, my country.

[Piers Morgan]

But once he's invaded, I Don't care.

[Tucker Carlson]

Whether you win or.

[Piers Morgan]

Once he's invaded, what do you do?

[Tucker Carlson]

Your victory has nothing to do with anything. What I care about is my.

[Piers Morgan]

You're in this as much as we are.

[Tucker Carlson]

No, no, no. I care about my country and whether we win, what's good for us. Because I'm in charge. My country is theoretical, in charge of nothing.

[Piers Morgan]

Is it good for America that Putin wins?

[Tucker Carlson]

This whole thing has been a disaster for. We're gonna lose the US Dollar over this, okay? Because we followed the advice of people like Boris Johnson who have no skin in the game whatsoever, but they get to feel like a moral charge. Be like, we're on the side of democracy. It's. It's so infuriating to make it. I'm sorry to be so mean to the Brits, because it's our fault, too.

[Piers Morgan]

We can take it.

[Tucker Carlson]

In fact, we started this, but you guys went along like little Pekingese. You shouldn't have done that.

[Piers Morgan]

But why are you not answering my question?

[Tucker Carlson]

What would I do if I were Trump right now?

[Piers Morgan]

No, no. Once he invaded Putin, what do you let him take?

[Tucker Carlson]

Like, call Putin? Let him take.

[Piers Morgan]

I would say let him take.

[Tucker Carlson]

To what extent can you clean it up? You call Putin and you say, all right, this happened. First thing we're going to do is recognize it's not in our interest. Your interest, the world's interest, to have NATO missiles on your border. We don't want that. There's no reason to want that, because we don't want to drive you into the arms of China. You are really part of Europe and you should be part of the west, because the west is a Christian world that has a lot in common.

[Piers Morgan]

And what if he says culturally, religiously.

[Tucker Carlson]

Linguistically, historically, and we want to be a bloc against the rising?

[Piers Morgan]

And he says, you know, obviously. And he says, actually, I want Ukraine.

[Tucker Carlson]

If you're the leader of the United States, your number one goal is to keep Russia, the world's largest landmass with some of the world's deepest energy reserves, from relying on with China, which has too many people, not enough land, and not enough energy. So if they get together, they create a bloc that is bigger than you economically and militarily. So you cannot let that happen. That's number one goal. You cannot let that happen. And that retard in charge of our country just allowed that to happen because he hates the United States as it acted against its interests consistently from day one, 2020, to January 20, 2025, when he left. Thank God. So that's the goal. Do not allow, to the extent you can control it, do not allow Russia to align meaningfully with China. They have much more in common with us. They're part of Europe. Do you guys don't want to adventure?

[Piers Morgan]

I don't be pedantic.

[Tucker Carlson]

You're not being pedantic.

[Piers Morgan]

What do you let Putin take?

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't care. What I care about.

[Piers Morgan]

I don't care.

[Tucker Carlson]

I care, but what I care about is the balance of power in the world. And if the west finds itself in a place where it's got a much smaller collective economy and a much less powerful collective military than the east, then we're in serious trouble. There's no balance in the world. The Chinese are in charge of everything. And so you can't let that happen.

[Piers Morgan]

But if you roll over and you let Putin take what he wants over.

[Tucker Carlson]

It'S all this like dick measuring contest.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me just respond.

[Tucker Carlson]

Roll over.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me just respond. If you roll over, you let him take what he wants in Ukraine. Why should China not go and take what they want in Taiwan, for example?

[Tucker Carlson]

They would detect they are going to take what they want in Taiwan.

[Piers Morgan]

I'm not sure they will, especially with Trump as president, part of China. I don't.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay, why do we get to dictate what China does with Taiwan? Like there's fears you'd be happy for.

[Piers Morgan]

Them to take back Taiwan.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm not happy. I'm not happy with any conflict ever. I hate violence. I'm a Christian. I'm just saying that great countries have spheres of influence. So Saudi Arabia, where we are now, everyone's like, oh, the Saudis are interfering in Yemen. Well, Yemen's right there. It's in their world. Like they have an absolute interest in making sure that like nothing crazy goes on in Yemen. We have the same interest in Mexico and in Canada and we have some crazy cross dressing prime minister in Canada. So we kick them out because they're on our border. That's what great powers do. That's what they've always done. That's what they always will do. So it's totally fair for us to recognize that the countries around Russia, no, we shouldn't be invading or torturing them or oppressing them, of course, but that's their sphere. And big picture. Holy smokes. You do not want the two largest powers in the world, apart from the United States to get together and align against us.

[Piers Morgan]

Why do you support, why do you support Israel against Hamas, for example? Why do you support America giving them billions of dollars?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, I Don't.

[Piers Morgan]

You don't support Israel being supported by America?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, I. I support Israel in the sense that I. I really like Israel. I brought my family on vacation.

[Piers Morgan]

Did you agree with America supplying them with a lot of arms?

[Tucker Carlson]

To the extent that it. That it helps the United States, I'm for it, of course. I think what we need is.

[Piers Morgan]

So you do believe in America interfering in countries a long way away. It just depends which country. No, your principle. It doesn't really apply in Israel.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'll articulate it for the third time, just to be totally clear. I believe the United States, like every country, should, to the extent that it can act on behalf of its own people and their perceived interests, we can debate what those interests are.

[Piers Morgan]

But that doesn't apply in Israel.

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't know what you mean.

[Piers Morgan]

America's supporting Israel because it's an ally.

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't even know what those words mean. I'm just saying my personality.

[Piers Morgan]

They're an ally, right? I mean, they both know what that.

[Tucker Carlson]

Means to be an ally. I mean, we have no.

[Piers Morgan]

It means that when Israel wants to attack, attack in Gaza and attack Hamas, America will help it because it's his.

[Tucker Carlson]

That's not what it means.

[Piers Morgan]

So it gives it billions of dollars.

[Tucker Carlson]

Worth of be an ally. Okay. Fundamentally greater allies than my own children. When they come to me and say, I want to do this, I assess whether it's good for them or not. And if I don't think it is, I don't support it.

[Piers Morgan]

All right?

[Tucker Carlson]

Because they're my true allies. They're my children.

[Piers Morgan]

But why would you support America getting involved in Israel?

[Tucker Carlson]

If a country that's your ally says, I want to do this does not mean axiomatically, you support it. Maybe it's not good for you or me.

[Piers Morgan]

So do you support America supporting Israel to the tune of billions of dollars?

[Tucker Carlson]

It depends. If you can make.

[Piers Morgan]

What's in America's interest is what it does.

[Tucker Carlson]

In all cases, it's not just about Israel.

[Piers Morgan]

But do you support what's happening, then, in the support in the attacks in Gaza, for example? Because I don't see the difference between that and what's happening in Ukraine. This is a long way away from America. There's no direct involvement with America. There's no mainland involvement with America. And yet you think it's right that America supports Israel. Well, put words in your mouth, but you don't think it's right.

[Tucker Carlson]

Those are the words that came out of my mouth.

[Piers Morgan]

You don't think it's right America supports Ukraine.

[Tucker Carlson]

Simple.

[Piers Morgan]

And Russia.

[Tucker Carlson]

I have a simple solution. Let me explain what I think and then that way we'll get my wrong. We'll get right to what I think. Am I wrong? I actually tuned out midway through. I'm not exactly sure.

[Piers Morgan]

You can't see that when I'm right.

[Tucker Carlson]

I didn't follow what I'm right. No, it was more a lecture about what I think. And then I'm like, wait, I know what I think. I think expert on what I was. I think I'm the uncontested premiere of my own head.

[Piers Morgan]

That is true.

[Tucker Carlson]

So I'm going to unload its contents on you right now.

[Piers Morgan]

Explain.

[Tucker Carlson]

Tell you why.

[Piers Morgan]

What is America's national interest in Israel?

[Tucker Carlson]

I'll define the parameters as well, because I'm happier with that. I would say I support the right of all sovereign nations to act within what they believe is their own interest. Like we don't always know our own interest in our personal lives or between nations. Like, we think it's good for us, but it may not. Be the vodka in the morning analogy. Not good, actually. But I thought it was. Now I know it's not. But to the extent that we think we know, I think countries should act on behalf of their own citizens. That's the basic idea in democracy. Okay. And there's certainly a. You could make a case that whatever we're giving to Israel this year, in the form of direct aid, military assistance, loan guarantees, however we're doing it is good for the United States. I think you just have to make that case.

[Piers Morgan]

Why is it good for the United States?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, you could make that case, but why is it? I'm not convinced.

[Piers Morgan]

What is the case?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, I don't know. You'd have to be an advocate for it. You are a vociferous advocate for it. So why don't you tell me?

[Piers Morgan]

For what?

[Tucker Carlson]

For US Aid to Israel in the current conflict.

[Piers Morgan]

Actually, I haven't expressed a view about that at all. I'm just curious about your. The difference.

[Tucker Carlson]

You're not an Israel hater, are you?

[Piers Morgan]

Why do you hate? Not at all.

[Tucker Carlson]

Why do you hate? Why are you attacking Israel?

[Piers Morgan]

I'd like.

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't know why? Like what? What problem do you have with Israel, Pierce?

[Piers Morgan]

I have no problem with Israel like this.

[Tucker Carlson]

They secretly hate Israel.

[Piers Morgan]

I have no problem with Israel whatsoever.

[Tucker Carlson]

Feels like you do. Is Netanyahu a dictator?

[Piers Morgan]

Actually, I don't like Netanyahu. I think you should.

[Tucker Carlson]

I think you hate Israel.

[Piers Morgan]

I think you should go. But that's what let Me just ask you one more time.

[Tucker Carlson]

Hang on, hang on. Now we're getting into. I'm not comfortable with this.

[Piers Morgan]

Here's my question.

[Tucker Carlson]

Should I be platforming you? That's my question. You just said you don't like Netanyahu.

[Piers Morgan]

Trying to work out who's whose brand suffers more when we platform each other. But let me ask you this, Let me ask you this.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm going to need a second one.

[Piers Morgan]

More time, just quietly, for the people at the back. You don't like America getting involved in helping Ukraine against Russia because there's no national interest for America in doing that in your eyes?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, there's a negative national. Okay, so you're using the US Dollar as the world's reserve currency because of this war.

[Piers Morgan]

All right, so fine. No greater national position is America first that there's no interest for America shouldn't.

[Tucker Carlson]

Be doing it every country.

[Piers Morgan]

It's a problem between the problem between Ukraine and Russia. Okay, that's fine. A lot of people have that view. I respect it. What I can't understand is the difference in your logic and principle about supporting Israel in its war with Hamas, which is many thousands of miles away from America.

[Tucker Carlson]

Have I.

[Piers Morgan]

No, there's no direct.

[Tucker Carlson]

Have I been a great advocate for the war? It goes. I missed that part of the conversation.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, you support America supporting Israel, but you don't support America supporting Ukraine.

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't support America supporting any nation on the planet to its own detriment. Every element of our foreign policy should serve the United States. That's the point of our government, is to serve the people who live there, called citizens. That's what democracy is. There's no other reason. So if I'm in charge of a country and I decide actually I should do this because people who pay me want me to do it, or I'm making money to do it, then I'm by definition illegitimate. That's not democracy. That is a species of oligarchy or whatever. You could assign a name to it. That's not democracy. So I just believe in our system and our leaders should act on behalf of their own people or what they think is their own people's interests. And I would apply that to Israel. I'd apply it to Ukraine. I think there have certainly been times where we have benefited from our alliance with Israel. You know, it's an alliance just like we have an alliance.

[Piers Morgan]

They are allies.

[Tucker Carlson]

Then I don't know what ally means.

[Piers Morgan]

It's short for alliance.

[Tucker Carlson]

You're right, it is, yes. So funny, I never knew that.

[Piers Morgan]

Gotcha.

[Tucker Carlson]

You got me.

[Piers Morgan]

You've literally just.

[Tucker Carlson]

When it comes to etymology, you are the unchallenged king.

[Piers Morgan]

Boom.

[Tucker Carlson]

You're blowing my mind.

[Piers Morgan]

Piers Morgan, my English linguistics say you.

[Tucker Carlson]

Guys invented the language.

[Piers Morgan]

You know what? It is our language. You lot fucked it up. But we actually. It's our language.

[Tucker Carlson]

As a PG Wodehouse fan, I totally.

[Piers Morgan]

It's a root, not a route. It's Iran, not Iraq, not Iran. And it's a hurricane, not a hurricane.

[Tucker Carlson]

Hurricane is embarrassing.

[Piers Morgan]

These are all our words. We gave them to you. You changed them. We have hurricanes.

[Tucker Carlson]

You don't have hurricanes. Or pecans.

[Piers Morgan]

I had 1 in 87. It knocked down all the trees in my house.

[Tucker Carlson]

You had a hurricane?

[Piers Morgan]

Yes. 87.

[Tucker Carlson]

I think it's a typhoon when it happens.

[Piers Morgan]

Famously, the BBC weatherman at the time announced on the BBC Main News on the night, there are people ringing in saying, is there going to be a hurricane in the UK and no new adventures? And let me tell you, there is not. Four hours later, every tree in south of England fell down.

[Tucker Carlson]

Are you serious?

[Piers Morgan]

Yes. Well, we called it a hurricane is my point.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah, well, you don't have enough experience as someone who spends a lot of time in Florida. It's a hurricane. It's also a cocktail.

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[Tucker Carlson]

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