S2 Ep Bonus - Behind the Scenes

Summary

Summary of "The Turning - Seasons 1, 2 & 3 | S2 Ep Bonus - Behind the Scenes"

Release Date: May 9, 2023
Hosts: Erica Lance, James Trout, Aylin Lance Lesser, and Emily Foreman
Produced by: Rococo Punch and iHeartPodcasts

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1. Introduction to the Behind-the-Scenes Episode

In this special bonus episode of The Turning, the team—comprising Erica Lance, James Trout (JT), Aylin Lance Lesser, and Emily Foreman—dives into the "Room of Mirrors," a collection of fascinating stories and insights that didn't make it into the final ten-part series. This episode offers listeners a deeper understanding of the research process, unexpected discoveries, and the personal reflections of the team members as they worked on uncovering the truths behind the River Road cult.

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2. Unveiling Hidden Stories

2.1. The Intricacies of Ballet Pointe Shoes

Emily Foreman introduces a compelling discussion on the history and challenges associated with ballet pointe shoes. She explains that pointe shoes, iconic in the ballet world, have remained largely unchanged since their inception in the 1830s. Made primarily from fabric, glue, and paper, these shoes are notoriously uncomfortable and fraught with health risks for dancers.

Emily Foreman (05:19): "Pointe shoes really haven't changed that much. They can lead to a bunch of stress fractures in your feet and toes... they really can lead to a lot of injury for dancers."

The team delves into the physical toll these shoes take, including stress fractures, ankle injuries, and severe blisters. Emily highlights that when dancers are on pointe, nearly all their body weight is concentrated on their big toe and adjacent joints, areas not naturally designed to bear such stress.

Erica Lance echoes these sentiments with personal incredulity:

Erica Lance (05:00): "Pointe shoes are made of fabric, glue and paper. Yeah. I just don't understand where the support comes from. It sounds like a paper mache project to me."

2.2. Resistance to Innovation in Ballet Equipment

The conversation shifts to the comparative evolution of sporting gear versus ballet equipment. Emily contrasts the continual advancements in sports safety gear—such as soccer shin guards and football helmets—with the stagnant design of ballet pointe shoes.

Emily Foreman (08:36): "It's really shocking to contrast those two. In ballet, it really isn't changing that much."

They discuss attempts to innovate, such as Gaynor Minden's pointe shoes featuring malleable plastic shanks designed to enhance comfort and longevity. However, these innovations faced resistance within the ballet community, deemed as "cheating" by traditionalists who prioritize aesthetic over functionality.

James Trout (10:13): "There is a little bit of stigma of, oh, they're more comfortable. And so there's like maybe some kind of weakness if you choose to wear Gaynor Mendens."

Chloe emphasizes the cultural inertia within ballet, where aesthetic purity often trumps practical improvements:

Chloe (12:12): "Ballet has like, it's changed over time...if we're going to like continue to push the speed and the style that we want, then you're going to have to make some changes to the footwear or the equipment or whatever it is."

2.3. Exploring Tchaikovsky's Lost Pas de Deux

Chloe takes listeners on a historical journey exploring the complexities behind Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake ballet. She uncovers the existence of a "lost pas de deux," a piece that was initially rejected and only rediscovered decades later.

Chloe (17:34): "In the 1870s, Tchaikovsky gets commissioned to write his first ballet... dancer complains about the music in the rehearsal."

This segment reveals how the original score was deemed too complex for dancers, leading to significant cuts and alterations by choreographer Julius Racinger. The resultant production failed critically, leading to the ballet's temporary abandonment. It wasn't until 1953 that the lost sections were unearthed, allowing choreographers like Balanchine to reintegrate them, ultimately enhancing the ballet's legacy.

James Trout (26:21): "I love hearing stories like this, something that now is considered, like, the greatest of the great. And then you go back to, like, when it first came out, and people were like, this is crap."

2.4. The Enigmatic Story of Holly Howard

Erica Lance shifts focus to Holly Howard, a prominent ballerina and one of Balanchine's early American muses. Holly's personal life, intertwined with her professional career, is marked by turmoil and tragedy.

Erica Lance (27:25): "We discussed how Holly and Balanchine were what it seemed like romantically involved. And she got four abortions by Balanchine."

Through meticulous research, including consulting private investigators and ancestry records, Erica uncovers that Holly was born in 1918 in Virginia, trained under Catherine Littlefield, and later moved to New York to join Balanchine’s company. Despite her prominence, Holly's later life remains shrouded in mystery, with rumors and limited information suggesting personal struggles and an untimely death from cancer at age 50.

Erica Lance (34:14): "There's... a really troubling footnote from this guy, John Terrace. He was a former Balanchine dancer, and he said, they say, no proof. Holly is running a whorehouse in Boston... because of him."

This revelation highlights the darker undercurrents of Balanchine's relationships with his muses and the societal pressures faced by women in the ballet world during that era.

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3. Listener Reactions and Personal Reflections

James Trout shares the overwhelming and emotional responses received from listeners, particularly regarding an episode where he and Aylin discuss their personal experiences with ballet.

James Trout (43:32): "We got several long emails and letters from listeners sharing their stories that have been incredibly moving."

One poignant letter recounts a listener's struggle with leaving a lifelong passion for music, paralleling the team's own experiences:

Listener Excerpt: "This episode helped me acknowledge that I'm not as alone in choosing a path away from my true love as I thought... So I thought that was pretty incredible that this person wanted to reach out because something had resonated so true to her and what she heard."

The team reflects on the universality of passion, burnout, and the identity crises that can follow the departure from a cherished pursuit. They discuss how intense commitments, much like abusive relationships, can distort perceptions of love and attachment, making the loss feel more profound.

James Trout (48:53): "That perception might also be based in this all or nothing attitude... the intensity of the commitment can make the loss even greater."

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4. Conclusions and Final Thoughts

As the episode draws to a close, the team expresses a longing for greater understanding and documentation of the personal lives behind historical figures like Holly Howard. They acknowledge the gaps in their narrative and the importance of recognizing individual agency and resilience beyond cultural stigmas and historical erasure.

Erica Lance (39:57): "I crave those details because I crave a document of that time and like how people were thinking about that choice just to see her as more of an independent person."

The episode serves as a testament to the complexities of uncovering hidden histories and the profound impact that storytelling can have on both creators and listeners alike.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Emily Foreman (05:19): "They're very uncomfortable... it really can lead to a lot of injury for dancers."
• Erica Lance (05:00): "Pointe shoes are made of fabric, glue and paper. Yeah. I just don't understand where the support comes from. It sounds like a paper mache project to me."
• Chloe (12:12): "Ballet has like, it's changed over time... if we're going to like continue to push the speed and the style that we want, then you're going to have to make some changes to the footwear or the equipment or whatever it is."
• James Trout (26:21): "I love hearing stories like this, something that now is considered, like, the greatest of the great. And then you go back to, like, when it first came out, and people were like, this is crap."
• James Trout (43:32): "We got several long emails and letters from listeners sharing their stories that have been incredibly moving."
• James Trout (48:53): "That perception might also be based in this all or nothing attitude... the intensity of the commitment can make the loss even greater."

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For more insights and detailed accounts, tune into the bonus episode of The Turning and explore the untold stories that shaped the River Road Fellowship's downfall.

Transcript

[Erica Lance]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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For instance, breakfast has the spicy egg.

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McMuffin for a limited time and lunch doesn't.

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[James Trout]

I've never felt like this before. It's like, you just get me. I feel like my true self with you. Does that sound crazy? And it doesn't hurt that you're gorgeous. Okay, that's it. I'm taking you home with me. I mean, you can't find shoes this good just anywhere. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas and more at your DSW store or dsw.com as we were working on the Turning Room of Mirrors, we came across so many fascinating stories that we didn't have time for in the final series. So today's episode will sound a little different. I asked each of our team members to bring a tidbit or story that they stumbled across in working on the series that fascinated them or surprised them.

[Erica Lance]

Surprise them.

[James Trout]

And to share it with the group. So today we're all here to talk. We have Emily Foreman, our editor, James Trout or jt, who sound designed the series, and Aylin Lance Lesser, who co wrote and reported the series with me. You may remember, she's also my sister. You've heard from her before. So, Aylin, what did you bring today? What's been on your mind?

[Emily Foreman]

So, I don't know. As we were researching the world of ballet, one little piece that stuck out to me was something that actually Chloe angel talked a lot about when we spoke with her and that she also wrote about in her book. And it's pointe shoes. When I think of ballet, one of the first images that comes to mind is pointe shoes. One could even argue that they're part of the mystery and the mystique. And actually they were first developed in the 1830s when a bunch of choreographers were interested in getting dancers to look like they're floating. But what's interesting to me is over time since then, well over a hundred years, pointe shoes really haven't changed that much. Obviously they've changed to some degree, but ultimately most pointe shoes are still being made out of the same materials. And that's fabric, glue and paper. They're very uncomfortable. Like it's not fun to be in a pointe shoe. They can also lead to a bunch of stress fractures in your feet and toes. They can lead to ankle injuries, they can lead to horrible blisters and bunions. And also when you're walking around day to day, usually you put about 30% of your body weight on your big toe. That's, you know, normal day to day walking around. But when you're on a pointe shoe and you're on pointe, you're putting all of your body weight right on your big toe and also specifically on the joint next to your big toe. And that joint isn't used to that. So it's very painful. And it really can lead to a lot of injury for dancers, which first of all affects their careers or it could affect them long term, even just day to day living, moving around the world.

[Erica Lance]

I've heard this many times. Pointe shoes are made of fabric, glue and paper. Yeah. I just don't understand where the support comes from. It sounds like a paper mache project to me.

[Emily Foreman]

I think that's what's kind of shocking about it. They're not using up to date materials.

[James Trout]

Usually at least they are like really hard paper and cloth. Sounds not hard, but the glue turns it into this very hard thing.

[Emily Foreman]

Dancers are often, you know, whacking their pointe shoes on the wall or on the ground, even using Hammers to try to get them softer. And then also what can happen is you finally get your shoes to the place where they're perfect, where they're just the right amount of firmness and flexibility, but then they start to go too far, they're too worn in, and then you have to get a new pair. So also, a lot of dancers go through pointe shoes very quickly.

[Erica Lance]

At its best, when your pointe shoe is broken in, what does it feel like?

[James Trout]

The shank is bending with your arch and helping to support you, which is why it's so important that you have shoes that are not dead or over broken in.

[Emily Foreman]

Also, they need to be firm enough because the box, on some level, helps protect the joint by keeping it stiff. But if it's too stiff, that's also a problem because then it's harder to move.

[Chloe]

So, like, seemingly there's like another material that could just be that stiffness.

[Emily Foreman]

Exactly, J.T. and it's funny that you say that, because I think if you contrast what's happened with ballet equipment against what has happened in sporting gear, I mean, it's really shocking to contrast those two. So take something like soccer. You think of shin guards back in the day. Initially they were just kind of like padding. And then over time, they developed all kinds of new materials to the point where today as a player, you can pick how heavy your shin guards are, how hard they are, how they fit you, how big they are, all these different things, or even cleats, they've changed a lot. And when turf was invented, cleats totally changed to help protect players against turf injuries. Or you think about American football helmets and how obviously those are very important for protection. But football helmets are lab tested, and the NFL actually requires players to wear certain helmets that don't fall under this not recommended category by these lab tests. And it's constantly changing year to year. Whereas in ballet, it really isn't changing that much. Now, there have been some changes. Some companies have tried playing around with material. It's not like no one has tried it. For example, there's a company called Gaynor Minden that in the 90s came out with a pointe shoe that had a box and a shank of malleable plastic. So basically, where the toes go in the shoe and kind of the sole or the base of the shoe are made of this plastic that can adjust. And the nice thing about these shoes is that they also last longer because they're built with these materials that don't wear down as quickly. They're built to last at A very specific level of flexibility.

[James Trout]

That sounds good.

[Emily Foreman]

It does sound good, but weirdly, they just didn't really take off. I mean, they're still in existence, but they're just not popular. And actually, ballet schools across the country, many of them do not allow dancers who are learning to dance on pointe to use Gaynor Mintons. The argument is that these shoes actually make it easier to pop up on pointe. So some teachers argue that you're not building the muscles correctly. But the thing about these shoes is that they are much more comfortable and they're supposed to be way safer. According to the founder of the shoe company Gaynor Menden, they are, quote, the first and the only pointe shoe that was ever designed with dancers health and safety in mind. And so while there are some dancers who use these shoes, ultimately they're just not popular. And Chloe angel argues that pointe shoes could be made even safer than Gaynor Menden's with the technology we have today, for example, if they made the shoes straighter and more wide up until the tip of the toe, but they're just not made safer or more comfortable. What it comes down to most likely is the ballet world's concern with the line and the aesthetic that the shoe needs to look a very specific way. And even, I mean, going back to Balanchine, he had a very specific preference on pointe shoe. He preferred freedesign, like the old school pointe shoes that you typically see.

[James Trout]

I remember one of my classmates got a pair of Gaynor Mendens. I remember like, oh my God, wouldn't it be cool to have comfier pointe shoes? But also, I did feel like there is a little bit of stigma of, oh, they're more comfortable. And so there's like maybe some kind of weakness if you choose to wear Gaynor Mendens. So I didn't try them for that reason. And now looking back, I'm like, Erica, why wouldn't you just try them? I mean, my guess is it's not like there's been some in depth clinical study on the anatomy of the foot during ballet steps and how much the muscle is being used in these different types of shoes. I do wonder to what extent that's based on like some scientific truths versus a fear of changing the norm. I think you do have to take a risk to try something new to try to be safer.

[Erica Lance]

It's like a fine line between like this idea that it's just not. It hasn't been embraced. It's kind of like suffering is a necessary part of the elitism involved. Otherwise it's not ballet. It's like a fine line between that versus what I'm hearing. You're saying of, oh, you're not going to build this foundation that you need, you're not going to build the muscles that you need to do this thing. But what does that actually mean? Are they thinking about like long term outcomes? What is implied in this not being embraced?

[Emily Foreman]

Chloe also makes that point that teachers across the country do think of it as sort of a cheat. And it is not just implicitly, but kind of explicitly looked down upon. And even some celebrity teachers, so teachers that are like well known in the field have kind of come out against it. And one even said, ballet isn't about health, it's an art form. And that's true. You know, ballet is an art form, but that doesn't mean you can't consider health in that.

[Chloe]

It reminds me of hockey players who refused to wear helmets when they made the rule change. And they literally grandfathered in certain people that were like, I refuse to wear a helmet while I play hockey. You look back and you're like one. Those guys are crazy. They're playing an insanely physical game like that. And also too, I think in the same way that ballet has like, it's changed over time, right? We demand more, the game is faster, the athletes train harder, just like with ballet. And I think if we're going to like continue to push the speed and the style that we want, then you're going to have to make some changes to the footwear or the equipment or whatever it is. I think that's just progress.

[James Trout]

That's such a good point, jt because you're totally right that the technical expectations are constantly increasing for dancers. Every generation of dancers is like, you're expected to be able to have your leg higher, do more pirouettes at once. So it does make sense that the gear would change with that, you know, greater level of force, etc. That you're putting on the shoes.

[Emily Foreman]

It does, I think, all come back to culture. Why is it that the world doesn't want to be open to these types of changes? Yeah, it's interesting how certain cultures are maybe that much more resistant to change.

[James Trout]

When we come back, Tchaikovsky's Lost pas de deux and more stories from our team. Stay tuned.

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[James Trout]

I'm curious, JT, what's been on your mind coming into this conversation?

[Chloe]

So, in the series, we mention this ballet called the Tchaikovsky Pas de Deux, basically this famous piece that Balanchine choreographed to music by the Russian composer Peter Tchaikovsky. And I realized that there's all this history behind the music for the pas de deux. I kind of went down this rabbit hole waiting between edits. So I was trying to find the specific one that Balanchine used. And I was frustrated because I was like, oh, I'm seeing that this might have come from Swan Lake. But then I was kind of like, why would Balanchine take a section of Swan Lake and just use it? And what I found was actually, it is a section of Swan Lake that we have probably never heard before or seen before Balanchine used it. The story is very complex and has a lot of really complicated Russian names in it. So here we go. I'm going to try to say them all. In 1870 ish, 1870s, let's say Tchaikovsky gets commissioned to write his first ballet. And at the time, ballet music was pretty much like crap. If you were a composer in the ilk of Tchaikovsky at the time, you were like, this is just kind of repetitive garbage, right? Like, you don't go to the ballet for the music, essentially. So he gets this thing. He's like, yeah, cool, I could use the money also. Yeah, ballet is great. He starts writing Swan Lake. He writes a lot of it pretty fast and then he sort of gets stuck on the instrumentation, blah, blah, blah, blah. He takes the score that he has written so far to the choreographer Julius Racinger, who is like this kind of like mid, like super mid choreographer.

[Emily Foreman]

Harsh.

[Chloe]

This is like, this is like, this is just what I've been reading. I'm sure he was a very nice guy. He's like, this is crazy. Complicated. The dancers complain about the music in the rehearsal. They're like, we can't choreograph to this. And the other thing, at the time, choreographers and dancers actually had a majority stake in the control. And sort of like, composers were like, not again. Cause the music was, like, very repetitive and kind of easier to dance to, right? It was an afterthought, you know? So these dancers are like, you're making this sort of complex thing that's really fast. We can't dance to this. We can't do our normal stuff. So they don't like it. So this choreographer Racinger starts chopping it. I read somewhere it's like they cut like a third of the original score out just because it was, like, too much. Meanwhile, this other drama starts happening where the dancer that basically this whole thing has been choreographed for. Who's playing the lead. This name is insanely complicated. I'm going to drop it in the chat just so you can see what I'm trying to pronounce. This prima ballerina Sobischen. Basically, they choreographed the majority of Swan Lake for her, then drama. She's kind of seeing this Russian oligarch who gives her a bunch of jewels, but then is like, I'm not gonna marry you. He's like, see you later out of the ballet, right? So they premiere the ballet with her second. And everyone hates it, right? There had been a bunch of stuff that had leaked that the dancers didn't like. The music, obviously, with the change of the main ballerina, basically the reviews were like, this is crap. Like, the music is terrible. Like, we don't get it. I imagine that if you make, like, a really complicated score and then the choreography is struggling to keep up, like, it only accentuates how different the score is. Do you know what I mean? So I'm sure people were just like, what is this hot garbage that we're watching? So somehow Anna S. She comes back. There's some. Some sort of amends are made. Like a month later, they're like, we're going to go to Moscow. And she's like, well, I got to change this really specific section in Act 3. I don't like the pas de deux that's there that was originally written. So I'm going to go to Moscow and have this Ringer Ballet composer Ludwig Minkus rewrite a section of Act 3.

[James Trout]

Which is understandable if you come back to this production and it has terrible reviews. And they're like, now we're going to go on tour and you're going to Be star of this trash production that no one likes.

[Chloe]

So Tchaikovsky gets wind that this is happening, and he's like, no, I should write all the music for my composition. They'd already re choreographed all this stuff for this new pas de deux that had been written into Act 3. So Tchaikovsky is like, cool, I'll just write a score and so you don't have to change the choreography. But, like, I want to mess with, like, all of the notation and orchestration of the piece. So he goes in and he changes it. They do, like, another run of shows that's longer, and people are like, yeah, this is fine, whatever. But then it goes away. Like, it's just done. They drop it from the Balshoi. They're like, we're not going to do Swan Lake anymore. Which is bizarre. Right? When we started this podcast, I was like, what ballets do? I know the Nutcracker and Swan Lake, both. Tchaikovsky works also totally, which is funny. Tchaikovsky dies. So I think there's probably some interest generally in his work. So they pick it back up. But they get a new choreographer. Actually, Tchaikovsky's brother rewrites a lot of the story of Swan Lake. They pull the Act 1 music back in to this Act 3 pas de deux and remake Swan Lake. And, like, that's the Swan Lake everyone then falls in love with. That's like the Dance of the Black Swan, right? Like, that's the return of the original Act 1 music comes back in. And, like, that's what we know is that. So basically, there's this whole section, this section that Tchaikovsky had rewritten in Act 3 that wasn't included in the original score. So it wasn't until 1953 when a Balt archivist finds these pages that he rewrote, and that's what Balanchine hears, and he's like, I have to do something with this. He makes what's now known as the Tchaikovsky pas de deux, which premieres in 1960. It's like this lost piece that was kind of put aside because it was way too ahead of its time in the ballet composition world. Then you have this choreographer who is changing ballet, and he gravitates to this piece. It was almost like Tchaikovsky was waiting for someone like a choreographer like Balanchine to. To create this kind of thing.

[Emily Foreman]

That's the same piece that Sophie saw decades later and was so inspired by the big movement she saw and then decided, I want to dance Balanchine from that piece. It's just funny to think how, like, the legacy of one piece continues to Change people's lives.

[Chloe]

The general plot of Swan Lake, like, over the course of history has been like, the end of Swan Lake has changed so many times, depending on who's putting it on. Like, it seems like there's at least 15 different endings or different sections, and people cut stuff and move stuff. You would just assume that it's such a classic that it would never be touched. Especially, like, we're coming off a whole series where we're talking about how ballet doesn't want to change anything.

[Emily Foreman]

Yeah.

[Chloe]

And, like, look at this piece that had so many changes.

[James Trout]

I love hearing stories like this, something that now is considered, like, the greatest of the great. And then you go back to, like, when it first came out, and people were like, this is crap. No one likes it. Or Tchaikovsky wrote all this amazing ballet music. But the first one he writes, the dancers are mad at him because they're like, we can't dance to this. I just find that so encouraging to not always follow the norm of what's always been done in whatever art form that you're in love.

[Erica Lance]

It's.

[James Trout]

Okay. Emily, how about you?

[Erica Lance]

Okay. So something I've been thinking about a lot since our series wrap is the dancer Holly Howard. So we talked about Holly in our Muse episode. She's one of Balanchine's first American muses. Around the time when he first debuted serenade, around 1934, she was among that first class of dancers. And what we discussed about her in the series is that she and Balanchine were what it seemed like romantically involved. And she got four abortions by Balanchine. This is from Kirstein's diaries. And we kind of leave her story there. And for us, that was like a moving anecdote that illustrates this pattern that we were noticing in Lots of historians have noticed in how Balanchine treated his muses. He'd fall in love, maybe get romantically involved, and then he'd inevitably sort of move on from them to his next muse. So that's where we left Holly. And I was just kind of curious what happened to her and her career and if I could glean anything more about her. And that was quite difficult to do. I think we were trying to find out if she was even still alive. That was hard to do. There's no obituaries or anything like that about Holly Howard. But yet she was one of these iconic muses in Balanchine's life. So.

[James Trout]

Wow.

[Erica Lance]

I decided to take a crack at it, just to retrace my steps a little bit. The first Thing we did was enlist a friend of the podcast who happens to be a private investigator. Now, that sounds a little creepy. It's not what you think it was. Basically, he directed us to ancestry.com, which is a very commonly used resource that we should use. Pro tip, Pro Tip. Something we learned in recording this series. And then I also found some additional information in this book. Mr. B. George Balanchine's 20th Century by Jennifer Homans. There's a little bit more on Holly. So basically, here's what I can tell you about Holly. She was born in 1918 in Virginia. She had a twin brother named Kent. The Howards, they were this big military family. Their father was a general, it looks like, under Patton and Eisenhower. And she sort of grew up wherever he was stationed, which was mostly in the Philippines. Anyway, so Holly got involved in ballet from a very young age. And I know that she spent some time training with a woman named Catherine Littlefield. And this would be years before Balanchine would show up in America. It feels like often the way we talk about Balanchine's debut in this country, it's almost as if he sort of descended upon the US and just like, collected this motley crew of dancers that didn't know any better and just, like, delivered ballet to the people. There was this New Yorker description of an event that they did talking about Serenade, where they say, quote, he was a ballet choreographer and almost nobody in the United States could dance ballet. He opened a school. But to judge from the photos, the young women he was able to collect were mostly rather plump and bewildered.

[James Trout]

Burn. Okay, I know.

[Erica Lance]

So kind of insulting.

[James Trout]

Jeez.

[Erica Lance]

And. And the truth was that really ballet was here. This is a point that Theresa Ruth Howard makes. We talked to Teresa Ruth Howard in one of our episodes. You have many examples of this. As early as 1846. There's George Washington Smith, who's this guy from Philadelphia. He was doing his thing. He's believed to be a mixed race man, and he danced in the premiere of Giselle here in the US There's Dorothy Alexander, who founded a school in Atlanta in 1929 that would later become the Atlanta Ballet. So, yeah, lots of examples of people doing ballet here, teaching people ballet here before Balanchine came. And so then you have Katherine Littlefield. Katherine Littlefield had this school in Philly, and Balanchine, when he was starting his company, recruited a bunch of dancers from her school. And one of those dancers was Holly Howard. So then at this point, I believe Holly's parents are divorced and Lois, Holly's mother, moves Holly and her twin brother Kent to New York, where Holly ends up in Balanchine's school and Lois devotes a ton of time to her daughter's career. I talked to Holly's niece, who told me a little bit about her aunt and has fond memories of her.

[Emily Foreman]

That's amazing. Nice sleuthing, Emily, to find her.

[James Trout]

Wow.

[Erica Lance]

I did call six of her nieces and nephews. These would be Kent's children. So her niece told me that basically her grandmother Lois, Holly's mother, devoted a ton of time to Holly's career and was essentially the company chaperone. This is also backed up by Lincoln Kirstein's Diaries that Lois was Holly's escort and probably spent a lot of time with Balanchine, too. It seems like Holly and Balanchine were in a relationship for over a year. Her niece did mention once that Balanchine wanted to marry Holly. I don't know what to make of that. This is where we hear the sort of abortion rumor. It was maybe a fourth or fifth abortion, and I was curious, too, a little bit about the context of what that would have been like to sort of get an abortion. In the 1930s in New York. It wasn't an uncommon use of birth control. Obviously, it was illegal. There were, like, safe hygienic options through midwives that you could get where the outcome could go well. But at the same time, because it's illegal, there's lots of, like, underground dangerous options, too. We don't really know the conditions that Holly dealt with or the form that those abortions took. I mean, she's also dancing all of the time and exerting her body in these ways. So I kind of wonder how that came into play, too. Then Holmans writes about this other point about Holly's mother, how she blamed George for ruining her young daughter and she threatened to have him deported.

[James Trout]

Whoa. Ruining because they had this romantic relationship?

[Erica Lance]

Yeah. And it seemed like, based on comments made by dancers, people knew about the abortions. People knew about this relationship. She felt it ruined her daughter's reputation. And I'm even hesitant to repeat this, but there is a really troubling footnote from this guy, John Terrace. He was a former Balanchine dancer, and he said, they say, no proof. Holly is running a whorehouse in Boston. Everybody said she became a whore and it was because of him.

[James Trout]

When we come back, we'll have more on Holly Howard's life. Plus, we get final reactions from our team on this season. Stay tuned.

[Annabe]

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[Holly Howard]

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[James Trout]

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[Erica Lance]

I don't know. I don't know what to make of this. It sounds very messy. You have Lois, but potentially trying to get Balanchine deported. There is some evidence to show that an immigration agent came to question Balanchine but ultimately like nothing came of it. And it's kind of where we left Holly in our story, which was we don't really know what happened to her career.

[Chloe]

That feels just like such a move that I, I wish I could say it's like we've outgrown as a society, but I feel like that happens all the time. If you leave some organization negatively, they're gonna do whatever they can to erase you from their records. Right?

[Erica Lance]

Yeah, it does feel like she's been erased and that's not the case with all of the dancers of that time. You know, there is documentation of dancers and the careers that they had. And the niece said, cause I asked her if did Holly keep a diary or anything? And the niece said, my mother was a protective person and was not a Chatty Cathy. She, if there was such a thing, may have decided it would be better to not see the light of day. And I understand to an extent like, you know, what is the value in continuing to talk about these details. But at the same time we're sort of left at this cliff, this precipice where the abortion comment is the last thing we've heard. And it is kind of told as this like moment of, I don't know, shame or tragedy or like ending of a career, erasure of her life as a Dancer. And I mean, the niece sort of admitted, like, on the other hand, that means we don't know what happened to her. We don't, we don't know some of these details that we might want to know. It might be a different story. It might be a different story of agency, but we can't know. We don't know actually how Holly felt about it, like, how much choice that she felt she had. And I kind of crave those details because I crave a document of that time and like how people were thinking about that choice just to see her as more of an independent person.

[James Trout]

I'm so curious what she was like as a person and what their relationship felt like. Like, what was their relationship dynamic. And of course, there are some power structures at play because Balanchine was her boss when they were together. But yeah, I feel like I don't. I still don't know. I don't know her. You know, I feel like I still don't know her.

[Emily Foreman]

And also I just kind of wonder about her personal life after Balanchine. Did she have other partners? You know, how much did her relationship with Balanchine also impact her personal life from there on out?

[Erica Lance]

And she never married. She never had kids of her own. She was around 50 years old when she died. She died of cancer. The niece has some at least recollection or image of her having been surrounded by a lot of friends. The niece's take on her aunt is like, well, she was just Aunt Holly to me. We loved her. She loved us. It seemed like she poured a lot of affection into her nieces and nephews. She remembers her teaching dance and she recalls one visit somewhere along the line of like, visiting Holly. And she says that, I remember I had learned a dance step someplace in our travels and I was so proud to show it to her. I thought I had it just right. And she looked at me and smiled and said, no, that's not the way it goes. And then she performed it for me.

[Emily Foreman]

Oh.

[Erica Lance]

And I'm sure with exact precision. And I couldn't quite see the difference between what I had done and she had done.

[James Trout]

I love that.

[Erica Lance]

I don't know. That's it.

[James Trout]

I've been reflecting a little bit on this whole series and one thing that's really struck me has been some of the responses from listeners. And we've gotten some really long emails and letters from listeners sharing their stories that have just been like, incredibly moving. And they've been from people with all kinds of dance backgrounds, including long term professional dancers at elite Companies, as well as people who just studied a little ballet as a kid. But I think one of the things that really surprised me, actually, was that the episode that got the most active, vocal response from listeners was episode six. And that's the episode in which Aylin and I talk about our lives and my experience with ballet. And this is an episode that I was really nervous to put out there. I think we were not sure if we should publish it at all. When we recorded it, we were like, we probably won't even use this, but let's just record a conversation and see what happens. But we decided to include it, and we just immediately got so many notes from people who listened, who wrote their life stories in these emails and talked about crying as they listened. It was very moving. I've never gotten such a wave of response to an episode, and I think it was actually a life lesson for me. There's a lot of media out there, movies or TV shows and storybooks about professional dancers. And I think for a lot of people who study ballet, it's like you feel close to it. You're like, this was a big part of my life years ago, but at the same time, you don't feel like you're part of it, and you don't think you can claim it as your own. And so you end up in this weird limbo of kind of having your history invalidated and erased. Because actually, like most people who interact with ballet, their story is much more similar to my story than to all of these professional dancers. I've often felt like a weird, lone person who. It's like ballet was a big part of my life, and then I totally left it, and there's no one like me, but actually there are tons of people like me. We just don't talk about it. So that blew my mind a little bit.

[Emily Foreman]

Yeah, it was exciting to hear from people and then to hear that they connected with it. And I feel like that feeling is so relatable beyond ballet. Like, I feel like we all have a part of our past where we didn't see something through fully, or maybe we actually kind of did, but we don't perceive it that way. And then we just close that part of our stories. I just think that's like a human thing. And in a way, I think it was nice for you, Erica, too, to almost be validated by these listeners. I think you did have a lot of imposter syndrome going into that episode, and you did feel uncomfortable. But I think hearing that from listeners and then actually hearing their stories and was impactful for you on a personal level.

[Erica Lance]

So one thing on that universality point that really stood out to me was this one letter from one of our listeners, and I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna read a section of it. She says. This episode helped me acknowledge that I'm not as alone in choosing a path away from my true love as I thought. My passion was music. I entered the local music school at age 5, and by the time I entered high school, I had been instruments, writing music and singing in choirs for almost 11 years. Becoming a professional musician and or composer was my goal. It was my whole life, just like ballet was for Erica. When I turned 16, my mother took all the money out of a savings account she'd opened for me when I was 10 and bought me my own instrument. Since it's a local specialty instrument and not as common as violins, flutes, etc. Every single one has to be handmade. We waited almost a whole year, and finally I got it. No more renting from the school. And then I burned out. I had been pursuing music for 14 years and was about to choose a university. I'd been planning to go to the National Music Academy to become a professional, but it all went poof. I used to find unimaginable freedom when playing, and now all I felt was dread, fear, and loss of identity. I mean, I knew I didn't want to do this anymore, but I had no idea who I was without music. The structure, the lessons, the daily practices. Now I had so much free time, but nothing to do with it. Erica was spot on when she said, so what is me because I'm me and what is me because of ballet? I still feel the same exact way when I think about the relationship I had with music. I think I've finally started to find me again. But, oh, boy, has it been difficult. I still have my instrument, but it's been about three years since I touched it. Maybe someday I'll pick it up again. I'm not sure. So I thought that that was pretty incredible that this person wanted to reach out because something had resonated so true to her and what she heard. In your experience?

[James Trout]

Yeah, it's really interesting. I was talking to a really good friend of mine the other day on the phone, and she had listened to the podcast. She was my college roommate. And she said a line that really struck her from that episode between Aylin and me was how we had said that it sometimes felt like ballet was my one true love. And then Aylin came back in the conversation and said, you know, I think that's how you perceive it, Erica. In other words, that it might not have actually been like my quote unquote, one true love, but that's sometimes how I feel about it and that's when I get emotional about it. And my friend pointed out that that perception might also be based in this all or nothing attitude that you have as a kid where you have to give everything. And it's almost like when you're in an abusive relationship. And the highs and lows of the abusive relationship and the way it kind of takes over your life can make you feel like it's the most intense version of love that exists and just like keeps you in the relationship and makes you feel like it's this great love. And I'm not saying that ballet was like an abusive relationship, but I do think that the intensity of it and the requirement that it's a big commitment at a young age, you get caught up in it and it can turn it into something that makes the loss of it even greater and just intensifies all of your emotions around it.

[Erica Lance]

Yeah.

[Emily Foreman]

And as humans, it's like the intense things, whatever they are, sometimes feel good, but that doesn't mean they're the only thing that can make you happy. Absolutely are the only worthwhile thing.

[James Trout]

The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and I Heart Podcasts. It's written and produced by Aylin, Lance Lesser and me. Our story editor is Emily Forman, mixing and sound design by James Trout. Jessica Carisa is our assistant producer. Andrea Eswahe is our digital producer. Our executive producers are John Peratti and Jessica Albert Heard at Rococo Punch and Katrina Norvell and nikki etor@iheart podcasts. For photos and more details on the series, follow us on Instagram Rococo Punch and you can reach out via email theturning rococo punch.com I'm Erica Lance. Thanks for listening.

[Annabe]

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[Holly Howard]

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[Emily Foreman]

This is an iHeart podcast.