S2:Ep 10 - Révérence

Summary

The Turning - Seasons 1, 2 & 3: Episode 2 - Ep10 Révérence

Host: Erica Lance
Guests: Stephanie Soland, Chloe Angel, Theresa Ruth Howard, Katherine Morgan, Wilhelmina Frankfort, Sophie Flack

---

Introduction

In Episode 10 of Season 2, titled "Révérence," The Turning delves deep into the intricate and often tumultuous world of ballet. Hosted by Erica Lance, the episode features insightful discussions with ballet experts and former dancers, exploring the hidden dynamics, cultural expectations, and lasting impacts of ballet training.

---

Personal Ballet Experiences

Stephanie Soland begins by reflecting on her personal struggles with ballet, highlighting the emotional and psychological toll it took on her:

"[05:41] Stephanie Soland: I'm not very good at ballet. Like, I'm just not."

She connects her difficulties in ballet to broader issues of identity and femininity, revealing how unmet expectations in ballet translated to feelings of inadequacy in womanhood.

Erica Lance shares her nostalgic yet critical memories of ballet classes, emphasizing the routine and discipline:

"[03:14] Erica Lance: When I think about what it felt like to go to ballet class every day as a kid... I liked the quiet, the focus, the preparation."

---

The Hidden Curriculum in Ballet

A significant portion of the episode discusses the "hidden curriculum" within ballet culture—the unspoken lessons and societal norms inadvertently imparted to young dancers.

Stephanie Soland elaborates on how ballet teaches girls to embody specific feminine ideals:

"[07:25] Stephanie Soland: ...you learn in ballet is what a good woman looks like. How you're supposed to look, how you're supposed to move, how you're supposed to behave..."

This indoctrination fosters obedience, perfectionism, and the suppression of personal discomfort, contributing to long-term psychological effects.

Erica Lance connects her personal experiences to Chloe Angel's book, Turning: How a New Generation of Dancers Is Saving Ballet from Itself, underscoring the pervasive nature of these hidden lessons:

"[05:41] Stephanie Soland: ...I got to this section about ballet's hidden curriculum... How much of my personality... has been molded by spending every day in a ballet class."

---

Physical and Mental Effects of Ballet Training

The discussion shifts to the physical repercussions of intense ballet training on young bodies, as well as the mental health challenges faced by dancers.

Stephanie Soland highlights the irreversible damage done to dancers' bodies:

"[22:44] Stephanie Soland: Once you stretch a ligament, it never contracts back. It's not like a muscle... you won't be a dancer forever."

She emphasizes the long-term instability and health issues resulting from early and extreme flexibility training.

Erica Lance adds to the conversation by addressing the mental health struggles, including malnutrition and hormonal imbalances that affect brain development:

"[23:24] Erica Lance: ...malnutrition might affect their brain development... make them more vulnerable to broken bones and osteoporosis."

---

Balanchine’s Influence and Ballet Culture

The episode delves into the profound impact of George Balanchine on the ballet world, examining both his genius and the problematic aspects of his legacy.

Stephanie Soland discusses the near-mythical status Balanchine holds and the reluctance to critique his methods:

"[27:14] Stephanie Soland: ...are you trying to cancel Balanchine? And I was like, even if I wanted to, how would I do that?"

Erica Lance and Theresa Ruth Howard explore the gender and racial dynamics introduced by Balanchine, noting the lack of recognition for contributions by dancers like Arthur Mitchell.

"[28:30] Theresa Ruth Howard: ...Arthur Mitchell was vilified for the same characteristics that made Balanchine revered."

They argue that Balanchine's portrayal as a "genius" creates a toxic environment where questioning authority is discouraged, perpetuating generational trauma.

---

Generational Trauma in Ballet

The conversation moves to how the reverence for Balanchine and traditional ballet norms has instilled deep-seated trauma across generations of dancers.

Theresa Ruth Howard explains how the glorification of Balanchine masks the underlying abuse and oppressive culture:

"[34:28] Erica Lance: ...The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and I Heart Podcasts."

She articulates that ballet's hierarchical structure and expectation of perfection contribute to ongoing psychological harm.

Katherine Morgan adds a poetic metaphor to describe the compartmentalization within the ballet world:

"[36:22] Erica Lance: Imagine that ballet is an old English manor house... So many people are dancing it in their own companies..."

This imagery illustrates the isolation dancers experience within their specialized environment, further entrenching trauma.

---

Life After Ballet

The episode poignantly addresses the challenges dancers face when transitioning out of the ballet world, highlighting personal testimonies of recovery and reintegration into "normal" life.

Wilhelmina Frankfort shares her harrowing experience of leaving ballet and the subsequent struggle with mental health:

"[50:08] Wilhelmina Frankfort: ...recovering from postpartum depression... I started taking my mental health more seriously."

Her narrative underscores the long-term effects of ballet training on personal well-being and identity.

Sophie Flack recounts her journey from being discarded by the New York City Ballet to pursuing education, illustrating the difficulty of redefining oneself outside of ballet:

"[44:42] Erica Lance: ...she decided the first step would be education. She'd go to college."

Katherine Morgan and Stephanie Soland discuss the residual impact of ballet on their lives, emphasizing how deeply ingrained ballet culture remains even after leaving the stage.

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes by weighing the profound beauty and personal fulfillment ballet can offer against its darker, often destructive underpinnings. Stephanie Soland passionately argues that despite the exploitation and trauma, ballet's transcendent moments and the sense of home it provides are invaluable:

"[56:14] Stephanie Soland: ...there's nothing like [the feeling of a perfect pirouette]."

Erica Lance reinforces this sentiment by emphasizing the lasting imprint ballet leaves on one's psyche and body:

"[58:32] Erica Lance: It matters that we get this right."

Révérence serves as a critical examination of ballet, advocating for necessary reforms to preserve its beauty while mitigating its harmful aspects. The episode invites listeners to reflect on the balance between artistic excellence and the well-being of those who dedicate their lives to the craft.

---

Notable Quotes

• Stephanie Soland
  "[07:25] ...you learn in ballet is what a good woman looks like. How you're supposed to look, how you're supposed to move..."

• Erica Lance
  "[03:14] ...I liked the quiet, the focus, the preparation."

• Theresa Ruth Howard
  "[34:28] We're mythologizing trauma for the art."

• Sophie Flack
  "[44:42] ...she decided the first step would be education."

• Wilhelmina Frankfort
  "[50:08] ...recovering from postpartum depression."

---

Final Thoughts

The Turning Episode 10 - "Révérence" offers a nuanced exploration of ballet's complexities, blending personal narratives with critical analysis. By highlighting both the exhilarating highs and the often-overlooked lows of ballet, the episode provides a comprehensive understanding of the art form's impact on individuals and culture.

---

For more details on the series, follow Rococo Punch on Instagram or visit theturning.cocopunch.com.

Transcript

[Erica Lance]

This is an iHeart podcast tired of.

[Chloe Angel]

Spills and stains on your sofa? Washablesofas.com has your back featuring the Annabe collection, the only designer sofa that's machine washable inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slipcovers made with performance fabrics. Experience cloud like comfort high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60% off your Anna Bay sofa backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return, shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may app Ah, come on.

[Stephanie Soland]

Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

[Erica Lance]

Still using yesterday's tech Upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 Carbon Ultra Light Ultra powerful.

[Stephanie Soland]

And built for serious productivity with Intel Core Ultra processors, blazing speed and AI.

[Erica Lance]

Powered performance that keeps up with your business, not the other way around.

[Stephanie Soland]

Whoa, this thing moves.

[Erica Lance]

Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech [e-mail] Lenovo Lenovo unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra prime so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device.

[Stephanie Soland]

Not all meals are created equal.

[Theresa Ruth Howard]

For instance, breakfast has the spicy egg McMuffin for a limited time and lunch does it. McDonald's breakfast comes first.

[Erica Lance]

I've never felt like this before. It's like you just get me.

[Chloe Angel]

I feel like my true self with you.

[Erica Lance]

Does that sense sound crazy? And it doesn't hurt that you're gorgeous. Okay, that's it. I'm taking you home with me. I mean, you can't find shoes this good just anywhere. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas and more at your DSW store or dsw.com you started your book in the classroom. Why was that?

[Stephanie Soland]

The vast majority of people who have ballet in their lives will spend the vast majority of their time in the classroom. You are learning how to be a student. You're learning how to communicate your ideas or not. And you're absorbing all kinds of lessons about your place in the world and and how you are or are not valued. Simply by who? The teacher pays attention to how the classroom is structured.

[Erica Lance]

When I think about what it felt like to go to ballet class every day as a kid, it feels routine. I spent a lot of my childhood in the ballet classroom. A big room with a high ceiling, old crown molding, tall pillars, big mirrors on one side, a piano in the corner where the Russian pianist played. The long wooden bar that lined the wall. Our pointe shoes clip, clopped and echoed every day. I'd pin up my hair and tape up my toes. I'd walk in, put down my water bottle to save my favorite spot at the bar. The pointe shoes smelled like satin sweat and sweet glue. I might chat with my friends while I stretched, but mostly I was silent until class began. I liked the quiet, the focus, the preparation. And of course, once class started, I didn't talk at all. It was a daily practice that I didn't give much thought. That was until I started to read Chloe Angel's book, Turning How a New Generation of Dancers Is Saving Ballet from itself. Chloe interviewed 100 people to analyze ballet culture today. When I read it, I got to this section about ballet's hidden curriculum. The things children learn by accident, the unintended lessons they pick up in the classroom. I underlined line after line. Chloe wrote, in this hidden curriculum, the ideal ballet dancer is silent, observant, and obedient. The ideal dancer should also be pleasing and pleased, her face never conveying how much pain she's in. I wrote in the margins, realizing how this has affected me. When I was reading that part of your book about the hidden curriculum, it's like this light bulb went off. This realization, like, dawned in my brain, and I just thought, my gosh, like, how much of my personality and how much of my life has been molded by spending every day in a ballet class as a kid, it just, like, really got me questioning all kinds of things about myself. Did you have that experience?

[Stephanie Soland]

I'm not very good at ballet. Like, I'm just not. About five years ago, I was talking to my therapist about why that bothered me so much that I wasn't good both actually and fictionally at ballet. And I realized that it was because it felt like failing and a very particular kind of femininity that I had wanted to succeed at since I was very, very small. And one of the things that you learn in ballet is what a good woman looks like. How you're supposed to look, how you're supposed to move, how you're supposed to behave, how you're supposed to tolerate pain, how you're supposed to conceal, labor, who you're supposed to obey, who you get to have power over. You learn all that in the ballet studio. But the reward for all that is accomplishing this very particular kind of femininity. I spent so much of my youth looking up to the women who had done it and wanting to be like them. And I didn't do it, didn't achieve it. And that disappointment is really profound. Not just because it feels like failing at ballet, because it feels like failing at womanhood.

[Erica Lance]

I think it's so hard to get over ballet because the lessons start early in the ballet classroom and they're folded into something otherworldly, something deeply beautiful. It's like Chloe once said to me.

[Stephanie Soland]

That shit stays with you forever.

[Erica Lance]

For my Heart podcasts and Rococo Punch, this is the turning room of mirrors. I'm Erica Lance. Part 10 Reverence.

[Stephanie Soland]

I think ballet in a lot of ways, benefits from the perception that it is a world apart, that it's separate from the real world, that it doesn't have to play by the rules of the real world. But it isn't, and it does. It's just a workplace. It's the real world. It's not separate from the real world.

[Erica Lance]

In the classroom, teachers drilled us on the same steps over and over. They yelled above the music while we danced, shouted corrections, things we had to change. They reminded us to smile, something you need to train yourself to be able to do when you perform. I remember one time a girl in my class just couldn't get the steps. The teacher had her do them solo across the floor while we all watched in the corner. She started to cry, but the teacher kept having her come back and start again. We were trained to make impossible things look easy, and I became attached to the facade of perfection.

[Stephanie Soland]

I think about the suffering that we accept and the innovation that we don't pursue because we're so attached to ideas about tradition and suffering. I remember very distinctly sitting in the audience of a New York City Ballet performance and thinking, this is all just a really great metaphor for womanhood. You're working incredibly hard to make this thing look beautiful, and you're expected to conceal all of the work that goes into that. And in fact, if you show the work, if people know how hard you're working to make this perfect, flawless, ethereal, highly feminine thing, you've failed. Contrast that with a lot of the activities that my men, friends and peers were either playing or watching. You're allowed to show the work. You know, if you get sacked in football, you're allowed to grimace. In fact, in European football, you're encouraged to let people know how much it hurts. You actually get rewarded for flopping on the ground and making a scene and showing the work. But in this hyper feminine activity, you have to conceal all the pain. You have to conceal all the work. And in fact, I think that the gap between what you see on stage as an audience member and what you know, the dancer is most likely experiencing that duality and that contradiction is part of the appeal of ballet. It's part of the mystique of ballet, which is profoundly messed up.

[Erica Lance]

Yeah, that's such a good point, too. Like, people do know that pointe shoes are incredibly painful. And people would ask me that when they learned I was dancing on pointe and wanted to hear about my feet. And, yeah, what do your feet look like? Are they all messed up?

[Stephanie Soland]

And something that I think people should really sit with and think, should we really be applauding people for being able to conceal their pain as well as they do? Is that really a skill that we want young people, and particularly young women and girls, to be cultivating and perfecting? And the other place where it really felt like a metaphor for womanhood was that, you know, you think of a ballet dancer, you think of a woman. But in most of the professional ballet world, at least, men are in charge. Meanwhile, girls outnumber boys in ballet classes 20 to 1. And, you know, the woman is the icon, and she's the person you look at on stage, but behind the scenes, controlling the levers of power. It's all men now.

[Erica Lance]

Boys in ballet do not have it easy. They might deal with stigma, terrible bullying or homophobia, a pressure to be more masculine, but in the classroom, boys hold a special place.

[Stephanie Soland]

You know, there are all these efforts to try and get more boys into ballet. There's a chronic shortage of boys in ballet. For most of them, they don't want to be there. They have to be cajoled into going and bribed into staying, either because they're given scholarships or they're held to a lower standard of behavior and talent than girls are. Lots of men that I interviewed said that their teachers had put off the transition from shorts to tights for as long as they possibly can because they didn't want to scare the boys out of ballet. Meanwhile, the girls have been wearing heavily circumscribed attire to ballet since they were three, and there are no exceptions. If you don't feel comfortable in the leotard and the tights, doesn't matter if you don't want to do it, there are 10 other girls who do. And so ballet culture in general bends over backwards to get boys into ballet, to keep boys into ballet. One artistic director told me that boys in ballet are treated like golden princes or like little princes. They're treated like they're special and better than girls. And the girls see that and the boys internalize it. And so I don't. I think we should be surprised that when those boys grow up, become professional dancers, and enter a company that is run by a man with unquestioned power, that they start looking around and thinking my behaviour doesn't have any negative consequences. These women are disposable. I am special and irreplaceable. And a lot of girls and young women in ballet are trained to be quiet and obedient and compliant, and to tolerate pain and discomfort and things that cross boundaries.

[Chloe Angel]

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Anabe, you never have to stress about Messes again. @washablesofas.com Discover Annabe Sofas the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, Our sofas feature changeable fabric covers allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Sophie Flack]

Are you shopping for a new laptop while still trying to keep up with technology and AI? Talk about feeling burnt out. But no more. Lenovo.com makes it easier than ever to find the perfect PC. In fact, we'll break it down for you. Step 1 Shop our lineup of AI PCs powered by Intel Core Ultra processors. Because why deal with downloading new software when you can buy a smarter PC that already comes with all of the AI features and tools? Step 2 Find the one that fits your passion. Whether you're a creative genius, a research scientist, a hardcore gamer, or a future CEO, no dream is too big. That's the power of Lenovo. With intel inside, you can keep up with your ideas as well as any challenges you may face. Step 3 add to cart and purchase oh, if you're a college student or a teacher, make an education account through us and get 5% off your whole order. Shop now at lenovo.com A Better Future is waiting and it needs you.

[Chloe Angel]

You're a hustler. You get things done, but you don't always do things for yourself. With JLO Beauty, it takes just a few minutes a day to look like facials are a regular part of your routine. JLo Beauty's Fresh and Flawless skincare kit includes six skincare products that work as hard as you do. They'll hustle to brighten, firm and hydrate your complexion morning and night. This skincare kit is a one and done solution that is clinically proven to visibly tighten and lift for instant and long lasting results. Cleanse, treat, moisturize, protect. The Fresh and flawless Skincare Kit does it all. See why the kit's a bestseller today? Visit jlobeauty.com deluxe and get an extra 25% off your first shipment plus free gifts with code DELUXE. If you're not satisfied, return the bottles within 60 days for your money back. See the website for details. That's jlobeauty.com Deluxe to get that JLo Globlow did you know that adults 60+ lose more than $60 billion each year to financial exploitation? Greenlight's new Family Shield plan empowers you to monitor your loved ones, accounts for suspicious activity, watch out for their safety with place alerts and protect them with up to $1 million in identity theft coverage. Protect your seniors today at greenlight.com familyshield that's greenlight.com familyshield.

[Erica Lance]

Chloe angel says she realized while she worked on her book that sometimes she'd go back to this old way of thinking, of seeing herself and the world.

[Stephanie Soland]

I started calling it Ballet Brain because it would happen a lot. And I really noticed when I started observing ballet classes for field work and for reporting was that I could not take my eyes off the teacher. I was at a local dance studio in my town of Coralville, Iowa, and instead of looking out at these young dancers in a prepoint class, I just kept watching the teacher when I was supposed to be reporting on these girls and their transition from flat to point. And I just remember noticing that about myself and thinking, oh boy, it's really in me. Because that's the other point of reference is you're constantly checking the teacher either because they are demonstrating an exercise or because you're checking, you know, are they watching me? Do they like what they see? Do they not like what they see? Am I worthless today. It's really in me in ways that I am aware of and also ways that I'm not aware of yet. And I was very fortunate to be living with someone and having my book edited by someone who didn't grow up in ballet and who didn't come to it with a lot of the assumptions and sort of taken for granted ideas that I did. And so having to explain some of these concepts, especially the more egregious ones, to non ballet people, was really easy to see. Like, oh, I got a bad case of ballet brain on that one.

[Erica Lance]

Do you remember some other instances, like that moment in the studio when you were like, wait a minute, I'm doing X or I'm assuming Y.

[Stephanie Soland]

An autistic director of an American ballet company told me about the handful of times when he's decided to not renew a contract of a dancer who he didn't think was in good enough shape, was too fat. And he explained it to me that, you know, they do everything they can to make sure their dancers are healthy and they really try and support them in getting into shape, which, again, is a euphemism for skinny. But if they're not, in his words, if the dancer's not willing to put in the work, then he has to think about, you know, the long term spinal health of the men who are lifting them. And he said something to me like, my back remembers every dancer I ever lifted. And I finished the interview and I was like, yeah, I mean, look, that's not ideal, but I get it. It makes sense to me. And I walked out into my kitchen and I recounted a lot of the interaction to my then fiance, who did not grow up in ballet, knew basically nothing about ballet until he started dating me.

[Chloe Angel]

And.

[Stephanie Soland]

And he was like, yeah, that sounds pretty messed up. My instinct was to defend it and to say, no, no, this is. This is why it has to be this way.

[Erica Lance]

That was my reaction, too. Of course you need to worry about men's backs. But then I started to realize the health of both the man and the woman is at stake in this scenario. The man's back and the woman's injuries and long term health problems that come from eating disorders. Telling the woman to lose weight is prioritizing the man's health. Then you realize, what if we did value the health of the women as much as we value the health of the men?

[Stephanie Soland]

The short term mental health, the long term employment prospects, the long term physical health. Shit, what if we said, okay, so don't lift her, we'll choreograph something different and you won't lift her, and she'll get to be the size and weight that she is and still have a job. I mean, when you actually think about it, guys, it's not rocket science. It's just a question of deciding what do we value and what are we willing to change in order to actually act on those values.

[Erica Lance]

I was surprised reading your book about some of the physical effects of dancing on young bodies. I mean, it was like, oh, what.

[Stephanie Soland]

What I learned researching the book that I never learned is that once you stretch a ligament, it never contracts back. It's not like a muscle. A muscle you can stretch and it, you know, can return to its, its old shape. Ligaments can't do that. And, you know, so many of the, the places that we stretch as dancers, we're stretching ligaments and, you know, you stretch that out at 7, 8, it's never going back.

[Erica Lance]

And why does that matter?

[Stephanie Soland]

It matters because you won't be a dancer forever. And unless you maintain the strength to match that flexibility, you're going to have real instability and real problems.

[Erica Lance]

Starting so young is part of the problem. The physical therapists Chloe interviewed said young kids should be stretching less. Young dancers working on their turnout can change the way their bones grow because of twisting in their growth plates.

[Stephanie Soland]

There should be much less of an emphasis on developing an extreme flexibility. There's no reason for an eight year old to be doing oversplits.

[Erica Lance]

Beyond injury, young dancers can have malnutrition because of their eating habits. Even if they don't have a diagnosable eating disorder, malnutrition might affect their brain development. It can lead to hormonal changes and lower bone density in kids who are still developing. That can make them more vulnerable to broken bones and osteoporosis later in life.

[Stephanie Soland]

I also think that kids have to be both told and shown that their pain and their discomfort will be taken seriously. What they've learned is that they will be rewarded for ignoring their own instincts and their own experience of their own body. Like, I'm not disregarding the traditions. I'm not saying we should junk them. I'm saying that we can do some things differently. All we have to do is be a little bit irreverent and being like, okay, so we change it. So what? One of the physical therapists I talked to said, we should not be putting girls on point until they're 15. To which a lot of people in the ballet world were like, that would fundamentally change ballet training. And when people could start their Careers and.

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

Okay.

[Stephanie Soland]

And so, like, change it. See what happens. I mean, I don't think it can be worse than what we have now, which is, like, permanent skeletal and ligament damage in 12 and 13 and 14 year olds.

[Erica Lance]

Chloe says maybe dancers could have longer careers if they had fewer injuries as kids.

[Stephanie Soland]

And I would say it requires a certain level of irreverence. And ballet breeds reverence. Reverence for tradition, reverence for authority. It just breeds reverence. Let's be a little irreverent and see what happens.

[Erica Lance]

Literally, at the end of every class, you have reverence. You know, it's like, literally, reverence is built into the class structure.

[Stephanie Soland]

That's such a good point. I'm annoyed that I didn't notice that. It's like right there, bowing and the curtsying. It's right there.

[Erica Lance]

At the end of every class, it's tradition for students to do a final slow dance. I always loved this part of class, how it ends. Beautiful and slow. Just simple expression. The center of the dance is a bow to the mirror where the audience would be. Then everyone curtsies to the teacher. It's called reverence.

[Stephanie Soland]

And it's also a reinforcement of authority and of the hierarchy. Bowing and curtsying to the teacher. And it's just. To me, it feels like a reminder that this art form has some very strange rules.

[Erica Lance]

Ballet has some strange rules, but it seems hard for teachers to break free from them. Maybe it's because we look to our predecessors, to the figures we admire, we mimic what they did. And in the case of Americans in ballet, we often look to Balanchine. What are some of the main effects of Balanchine that you see in the world of ballet? What comes to mind, the first thing.

[Stephanie Soland]

I'll say is that he left us some truly fantastic choreography, really and truly, against my, like, best strongest desires. Some of my favorite ballets still Balanchine ballets. Jules is spectacular. Serenade is beautiful. Which is why when people asked me after the book came out, are you trying to cancel Balanchine? And I was like, even if I wanted to, how would I do that? How does one even. How do you. You can't. He's, you know, in the air, in the water, in the soil. He's like. He's. The ecosystem of ballet is sort of suffused with this and shaped by this. And even if I wanted to, I wouldn't know where to begin. No. God, but Balanchine.

[Erica Lance]

A lot of people call Balanchine a genius. To me, that word is charged. It's hard for me to hear it without bristling. Theresa Ruth Howard says we need to think about who we give that label to.

[Theresa Ruth Howard]

It's always been interesting to me how we assign the moniker of genius to Balanchine, which I think he is. But I find it interesting that the same title is not applied to Arthur Mitchell.

[Erica Lance]

Arthur Mitchell, the founder of Dance Theater of Harlem. After Mitchell danced in Balanchine's company, he went back to his community in Harlem to teach ballet. Then he started a ballet company.

[Theresa Ruth Howard]

Arthur Mitchell may not be a choreographic genius, but I think that where his genius lay is in the idea that he created an organization that really challenged the field of ballet itself, who it belonged to. He created a new idea of what American ballet was and what it looked like.

[Erica Lance]

Teresa has noticed that Arthur Mitchell often gets criticized for a leadership style she thinks he learned from Balanchine.

[Theresa Ruth Howard]

He was cut from the fabric of Balanchine. That was his model. He was very demanding. He demanded respect. But he's a black man. He oftentimes gets, dare I say, vilified for those same characteristics. So Arthur Mitchell is creating the same culture as a Balanchine in his own context. But it's perceived much differently than. Than Balanchine. We don't call him a genius.

[Erica Lance]

There are so many people who do great things who aren't called geniuses, and people who never get to develop their genius because of norms, expectations, barriers, who's given opportunities and resources. I also hardly ever hear the term applied to women. I'd be happy to throw out the label genius altogether precisely because of who it leaves out. People use the word genius like it's a fact. When really, when you're talking about art, it's an opinion. In a way, it's so weird. Genius is discussed as this inherent trait. You're a genius or you're not. We like to bestow it upon people. Maybe it's a comfort. It feels good to think somebody knows better. Someone can lead me. Once you've been dubbed a genius, I think there are fewer checks on the choices you make. Even your art is viewed with less scrutiny. You can damage others in the name of your art without as much critique. It's seen as worth it. Those sacrifices are worth it for the output. When you hear someone is a genius, you feel this magic. You fall in line. I think if you think about what kind of role model do you want Balanchine to be for people who are going to be the future of ballet? Do you want him to be this.

[Stephanie Soland]

Godlike figure who had everything figured out.

[Erica Lance]

And had all the answers, and you.

[Stephanie Soland]

Had to obey and believe him and.

[Erica Lance]

Do what he said. And if he did that, everything would be all right. Jim Steichen's the author who studied Balanchine's early years in the U.S. and like Chloe, he sees how Balanchine is viewed in an almost religious way. I don't think we want those kind of leaders anymore. I think those kind of leaders are what we are discovering, create these toxic environments in ballet. And so if we can think of Balanchine in a more down to earth.

[Stephanie Soland]

Humane way and not have this myth of the lone male white genius, right?

[Erica Lance]

If we can think about art as this collaborative enterprise that takes all these people, I think that's where it really makes a difference. This reminded me of something I noticed among dancers trained in Balanchine's lineage. Even the dancers who never worked directly with Balanchine know all these beautiful little stories about him. Anecdotes that once helped them learn the choreography or that emphasize his genius. But other than that, they felt like they knew hardly anything about him.

[Chloe Angel]

When you're in the Balanchine system, he's like the unspoken, for lack of a far better term, God. It was ingrained in our brains to.

[Erica Lance]

Respect and idolize him. Katherine Morgan says that unlike with a lot of choreographers, Balanchine is never called George. Everyone calls him by his last name, Balanchine or Mr. Balanchine or Mr. B.

[Chloe Angel]

He was amazing, he's a genius, blah, blah, blah. And you don't think about it because.

[Erica Lance]

It'S not talked about it being like.

[Chloe Angel]

The extreme body expectations or the darker.

[Erica Lance]

Sides of him, any of that. It's just, it's not talked about.

[Chloe Angel]

So I don't actually know.

[Erica Lance]

So a lot never gets excavated. Dancers don't get to see the source of their own culture, the culture they swim in every day. In conversations with dancers, I've also sometimes noticed this pressure never to speak ill of Balanchine. Some of that pressure comes from love, gratitude. One former dancer said, he gave me my life. It feels like airing dirty laundry when you're talking about someone you see as your father, your mother, your everything. But I think some pressure also stems from fear. There's a strong perception that if you speak ill of Balanchine, even now, it will harm your career. And then there's this fear that admitting to flaws in the past will tarnish an art form that already feels fragile. They want the art form to survive, and I do too. But in my mind, not confronting the darker sides is what could make ballet cave in on itself.

[Theresa Ruth Howard]

We're mythologizing trauma for the art.

[Erica Lance]

Teresa Ruth Howard sometimes gets frustrated by how dancers remember Balanchine. It's like his memory gets mingled with these romanticized clouds of perfume.

[Theresa Ruth Howard]

They're not really digging underneath what that did to them, what that culture did to them. When you hear the dancers speak, what they sacrifice, the human sacrifice that they actually like French press down. To not feel or think about what we make okay in our minds so that we can dance, so we can just dance, so we can be seen as a dancer. That is generational trauma, and it is something that is folded into the legacy and lifted up in a way.

[Erica Lance]

When you say generational trauma, do you feel like that's affecting ballet students today, like children today?

[Theresa Ruth Howard]

Absolutely. I think that the way that it shows up, the way that it presents, is in the way that we talk about and lionize Balanchine because he held women in a very particular space. They are the flowers, and the men are the gardeners that pick the flowers. This is problematic. And so I'm not saying that they're using that language, but it is a behaved sort of way of being. There can be values around the body. There can be values around behavior. What is the appropriate way to behave as a dancer? And so you don't have to speak it. We behave these things. We behave our values.

[Erica Lance]

Imagine that ballet is an old English manor house. It's full of rooms, and in every room, people are dancing. That's how choreographer and scholar Adesola Akinlay talks about ballet. And I can't stop thinking about it. They say one room in the manor house is the grand hall. Everyone looks at the grand hall. It's full of an audience. It's where the attention is, the buzz and the lights. The grand hall is where people like Balanchine live, or people who've been permitted to enter Balanchine's world. But ballet is vast. There are many rooms in the manor house. There are many rooms of ballet. So many people are dancing it in their own companies, their own choreography, their own way. We've been looking at just this one room, its privilege and its restrictions, because this room is still allowed to dictate how dancers should be. If you're in that grand hall, that one room can feel like your whole world. The thing is that someday you're going to have to leave it. There's this saying that a dancer dies twice as a ballerina. From day one, you're always counting down to your first death. The day you have to Retire from the stage, leave the grand hall behind.

[Katherine Morgan]

Oh my. I can't even begin to touch how rich that culture is and was.

[Erica Lance]

Stephanie Soland says her ballet self was hard to shed.

[Katherine Morgan]

And there is an addiction to being on stage, to having certain rhythms of what it takes to be on stage and to be an elite athlete. There was a ritual from 6 o' clock to 8 o' clock of getting ready, of getting primed, of self talk and self preparation to, to be a performer. I remember when I stopped, it did take me about two years to come down from that pitch, that energetic pitch of preparation physiologically, literally, physiological, chemical.

[Erica Lance]

When you finally do move on, there's a recovery period. And I think the recovery period into the quote unquote real world takes about 10 years on average to function in the normal world. Wilhelmina Frankfort says part of the adjustment is realizing how abnormal your life has been. For decades, people have been making decisions for you, about you, and your life has been determined by a daily schedule. It's almost military in a way.

[Katherine Morgan]

You know, the bugle blows.

[Erica Lance]

That's class. There's this weird thing about the elite professional ballet world. It's like time and age move differently than they do for other people. On one hand, you have to grow up fast. You're treated like an adult when you're just a kid, and then you might become a professional dancer at 16 or 17. On the other hand, even years after you enter the company, you aren't treated like an adult. So many of your life decisions are in the hands of the company. Members of the corps de ballet are often called kids. Coaches yell out to dancers in rehearsal. Good girl, good girl. Your responses are somewhat thwarted and childlike and you gotta catch up. How do you get a job? And who are you?

[Chloe Angel]

There's nothing like sinking into luxury. @washablesofas.com you'll find the Annabe sofa, which combines ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. And get this, it's the only sofa that's fully machine washable from top to bottom. Starting at only $699, the stain resistant performance fabric, slip covers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash. Perfect for anyone with kids, pets or anyone who loves an easy to clean spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slipcovers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style. Whether you need a single chair, loveseat or a luxuriously large sectional, Annabe has you covered. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home right now. You can shop up to 60% off storewide with a $30 day money back guarantee. Shop [e-mail] Add a little to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Sophie Flack]

Are you shopping for a new laptop while still trying to keep up with technology and AI? Talk about feeling burnt out. But no more. Lenovo.com makes it easier than ever to find the perfect PC. In fact, we'll break it down for you. Step 1 Shop our lineup of AI PCs powered by Intel Core Ultra processors. Because why deal with downloading new software when you can buy a smarter PC that already comes with all of the AI features and tools? Step 2 Find the one that fits your passion. Whether you're a creative genius, a research scientist, a hardcore gamer, or a future CEO, no dream is too big. That's the power of Lenovo. With intel inside, you can keep up with your ideas as well as any challenges you may face. Step 3 add to cart and purchase oh, if you're a college student or a teacher, make an education account through us and get 5% off your whole order. Shop now at lenovo.com A Better Future is waiting and it needs you.

[Chloe Angel]

Now. I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic suit supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skin care simple and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types and it's designed to work as a complete skin care system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the Amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum. This next generation serum has the power of Melon Leaf Stem cell technology. It's melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the Amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just $49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All that [e-mail] this message comes from Greenlight.

[Erica Lance]

Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely and invest with your guardrails in place with Greenlight, you Can send money to kids quickly. Set up chores automate allowance and keep an eye on what your kids are spending with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on greenlight. Get started risk [e-mail] iheart.

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

I, like catch myself doing a thing that I used to do in the ballet that I have to check and recalibrate that I'm not actually in the theater and that's not how people do things here. On the.

[Erica Lance]

You may remember Sophie Flack danced with New York City Ballet and then in the economic downturn of 2009, she was let go. To Sophie, it felt like being discarded. Like her body just filled a hole that could be filled by someone else. She didn't want to keep dancing after that, but the loss overwhelmed her. Without ballet to determine her every step in the world, she hardly knew where to begin. Eventually, she decided the first step would be education. She'd go to college. She picked Columbia.

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

When I went to Columbia, I felt like I just exited a bunker.

[Erica Lance]

At first she felt superior. After all, most people in her classes were teenagers. She was in her mid-20s and she'd been working this intense job at one of the most elite art institutions in the world.

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

I kind of walked onto campus feeling like hot shit. I came from City Ballet. Like, you just moved out of your parents house. You know, like I had a life. Like I'd had certain experiences, I felt worldly, I'd traveled. So I went in being kind of snooty. And like day one, I was very humbled. I was like, oh, you're actually like crazy smart and I know nothing. I was like, oh, okay, there is a whole world outside of the theater. I didn't know. My mind was freaking blown. How little I knew, how much there was to learn. And I was an expert at everything that happened in the theater and I knew it really well. And I understood the ballet world, but I didn't understand what happened outside of.

[Katherine Morgan]

The ball ballet world.

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

I didn't know how to talk to people really, or people of authority even how to talk to them because we didn't talk to our superiors at all. I mean, it's literally like growing up in a terrarium, like a glass enclosing that is self sustaining and you don't need anything else but like the stuff within the terrarium.

[Erica Lance]

Sophie started to realize this terrarium had grown around her for years, starting way back when she was 10, 11, 12, when she felt herself pulling away from the outside world to focus on ballet.

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

I couldn't participate in a lot of social things, after school things, normal childhood things. And I would sort of reframe them in my head, like, oh, that's stupid. Like, I would put them down because I couldn't partake. I'd tell myself what I'm going to do is more important. And that was like a coping technique that I developed in my own head. Like, even these friendships, these bonds don't matter because who cares about children? No one's even going to remember this. And I would just like really sort of tear down all the things that I was missing out on. But looking back, and now that I have my own children, the things that I missed out on were extremely formative. And I'm kind of weird and screwed up because I miss them.

[Erica Lance]

What makes you say that?

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

I mean, imagine a child separated from her peer group to join a culture and it's taught a different culture, a different way of looking at things. Things like, if it's not uncomfortable, you're not doing it right. Being uncomfortable is normal. You bury your feelings and you're never good enough. I mean, these things are different than the things that you're normally taught. I hope I have two kids and a person's childhood is extremely important.

[Erica Lance]

The.

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

Whole rest of your life. Your personality, how you see the world. I spent so much time trying to unlearn everything. I was wrong. Those dumb things really matter. They're really important. Even if the activity seems dumb. You're missing out on experiences and memories that shape who people are. And I feel like I'm doing a lot of catch up now. And after I left the ballet world at 25, which for me felt very young at the time, but now that I'm on the outside, that was a long time. That was 20 years in the ballet world. That shaped me a lot.

[Erica Lance]

Sophie Flack says she had to unlearn ballet. She'd been told that the skills she gained in the ballet classroom would serve her for the rest of her life. But she found they did the opposite. Sophie says she had to learn that her well being mattered.

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

The biggest lesson post ballet was actually recovering from postpartum depression. Because I approached motherhood like I approached ballet with a lot of self sacrifice and for the betterment of the cause of the. The art form, you know, abandoning the self and it completely as a new mom, I mean, I might have had horrible postpartum anyway, but with that approach and my hyper perfectionism, I really lost my mind. I started to become psychotic. This was like real next level and I was having whatever Suicidal ideation. And there's more that I don't really want to share right now, but it was very scary. And after I had a breakdown, I started taking my mental health more seriously. Was like, okay, I need to relearn how to think. If I'm hungry, I eat. If I'm tired, I rest. I mean, like, literally listening to my body and articulating my needs. I'm still learning how to do that better. Because there is life after dance.

[Chloe Angel]

Oh, no.

[Erica Lance]

Oh, no.

[Stephanie Soland]

Okay.

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

Stoopy. Floopy.

[Erica Lance]

How funny.

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

Oh, ouch. That looked like it hurt. It sounded like it hurt.

[Erica Lance]

While Sophie sits on the floor of her living room, her daughter Eleanor climbs onto her back. Eleanor nestles her head into her mother's neck with a mischievous smile.

[Stephanie Soland]

Mom?

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

Yes?

[Erica Lance]

Can we dance together?

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

I think mostly I'm just gonna talk and not dance, but if you wanted to dance, we could do that. Wow. Cause I'm not really in a dancing mood right now. I'm more in a talking mood.

[Erica Lance]

But, Mom, I want you to dance.

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

I know.

[Erica Lance]

With me. Eleanor started a creative ballet class this year. A room of three and four year olds. When you're thinking back to your childhood, being in something that you now sometimes compare to entering a cult at a young age, how do you feel about your daughter potentially starting to dance herself?

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

I'm very conflicted. I mean, I'm conflicted about all the things, like, you know, I'm trying to recount as truthfully as I can about all these things, but pretty much everything I say has, like, another side to it, really. It's really hard to record a podcast about it because I don't have enough time to, like, really sit down, say it fully, actually.

[Erica Lance]

Yeah.

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

I always have this, like, flip side of, like, love for this art form. And it was a really great way for me to live. It gave me something to live for.

[Katherine Morgan]

I don't really talk very much about ballet. I don't have photos around me.

[Erica Lance]

It's.

[Katherine Morgan]

It's the past life. It's a past life and it's woven into the cells, but I don't wear it. It's not a badge.

[Erica Lance]

But Stephanie Soland still feels ballet in her. There are times it comes out in full force. Like just a couple of years after she'd retired from the stage, she was guest teaching at a local school of the arts.

[Katherine Morgan]

And I passed a room where somebody was rehearsing some Chopin and a lot of the Robbins bellies had Chopin on stage.

[Erica Lance]

And something happened to Stephanie, something that would happen many times over. The coming decades. The music took her back like a flashback. A sudden whiff of her past life that reminded her how real it had been.

[Katherine Morgan]

It's so visceral, and I was so jarred because I didn't know about this. It was literally like being flooded and shifted back in time. It was quite jarring, actually. Then it was, for me, sad because I was still very close to having finished, and there were still the parts of me that were like kind of like the loose tooth before it falls out. I hear music, and it's instantly a ballet. I see the steps, I see people doing it. I can actually feel the heat of the stage lights and the warmth of the wings. This morning, I was driving and the music for Diamonds from Jules came on and I started welling up, driving in the car, listening to that, seeing Suzanne Farrell and Peter Martens in front of my. The screen of my mind and thanking them. Be so grateful for having witnessed that and having that be part of a life. Every time I hear a piece of music, something is evoked and provoked, and the relationship to it is so deep. And what gratitude for that.

[Erica Lance]

We've been talking a lot about these dark sides of ballet. Is it worth it? Why ballet?

[Stephanie Soland]

The feeling that you get as an audience member, which is like, complete awe at what humans can do when they work together in its best form, in its purest form. You feel at home in your body when you dance, and it's transcendent, like when everything goes right, when everything lines up and you're, like, spinning perfectly in a pirouette, and you know you're going to land it cleanly, and then you do. There's nothing like it, right?

[Erica Lance]

Nothing like it.

[Stephanie Soland]

You feel so at home in your body. And, like, that's not nothing. It's really precious. It's really valuable.

[Erica Lance]

My most recurring dream is a pirouette.

[Stephanie Soland]

On pointe, on point.

[Erica Lance]

And I spin and I spin and I spin and I spin and I spin and I spin and I don't stop spinning for a long time. It's something I could never do in the real world, or maybe anyone could do, but just rotating, rotating. And then at the end of the pirouette, I just stay balanced on point. I don't come down, I just hover. And it is that feeling in your body that you don't get anywhere else. I don't know how to describe it if it's like flying, but it's the most beautiful feeling. I still remember what that feels like. And so those dreams are so vivid. Those are the types of dreams that I 100% think they're real. While I'm in the dream, I feel that dream in my body more than any other dream that I have.

[Stephanie Soland]

Yeah.

[Erica Lance]

And then I wake up and I realize it's not. It's not reality. But it's so glorious that it has stuck with me all these years, and it keeps coming back to me, even though I haven't done it in so long.

[Stephanie Soland]

And that is why ballet matters. Because you haven't done it in over a decade, but it's still in you. And so it matters that we get this right if it is going to stick with us for forever. It matters that we get it right.

[Erica Lance]

It matters that we get this right. This is something all ballet teachers know. You need a strong foundation. You need good technique. It's another lesson the classroom teaches us, and it's one I think we shouldn't discard. When it comes to ballet with bad technique, you can't keep up. With complicated steps, you're in trouble. A couple of flaws are placement issues, and your dancing isn't safe. Even if it looks beautiful, years later, it'll lead to injury. The thing is, it's really hard to retrain. It's hard to get rid of bad habits in dance. That's why when you learn ballet, you start with the basics, and you repeat those basics every day for the rest of your dancing life. First, a plie, a knee bend, then the port de bras. Move your arms, and then tendu. You slide your leg out so it's stretched and pointed. Once you tendu, you realize it's the base of most steps. Almost all ballet steps are modified tendus, tendus, in different forms. Balanchine understood this, and he loved his tendus. He had his dancers drill them. Not just eight tendus. Not 16, not 32, not 64. They did hundreds at all speeds, front, side, back. He'd prod them by saying, what are you saving it for, deer? Then he'd say, faster. You drill until it's automatic, until it's etched neurologically in your brain. When culture is drilled, culture becomes automatic, too. We need to look at the tendu of valet culture, the foundation. If we don't address the problems there, we'll have injuries later on. And that's what's happened. There are people now being injured, being harmed by dancing ballet, and that's why we have to confront the past. It all builds on itself. Balanchine is considered a genius because he changed ballet. He pushed the boundaries of what was acceptable on stage to make ballet beautiful. We need change too. We need to take a risk. That's how we make it better. That's how we keep it alive. And we can't wait to make this change. What are you saving for dear the Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and I Heart Podcasts. It's written and produced by Aylin Lance Lesser and me. Our story editor is Emily Forman, mixing and sound design by James Trout. Jessica Carisa is our assistant producer. Andrea Aswahe is our digital producer. Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado so many thanks to all of the people who helped and supported us with this project, including Gretchen Gavitt, Jacob Nicola and Theo Silber, Margaret Lambert, Kayla Reed, Stella Grizzant, Lisa Zagarmi, John Frischkoff, Zach Smith, Jacob Smith, Courtney Smith, Wiesmore, Erica Berger, Paul English, Betsy McMillan, Holly Palandro, Matt Silverman and Andrew Lesser. Special thanks to Bethann Maluso, Kate Osborne, Christine Ragasa, Travis Dunlap, Elizabeth Wachtel, Brianna Hill, Simon Pullman, Nancy Wolf, Allison Kanter and the wonderful teams at rococo Punch and iHeart podcasts. For their Our executive producers are John Peratti and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch and Katrina Norvell and nikki etor@iheart podcasts. For photos and more details on the series, follow us on Instagram Rococo Punch and you can reach out via email. Theturningcocopunch.com I'm Erica Lance. Thanks for listening.

[Chloe Angel]

Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices with sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anime is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop [e-mail] Authors are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Sophie Flack]

Want to feel more creative but don't have the right laptop? Lenovo.com can help look through our legendary lineup of AI powered PCs and devices and find the one that fits your passion. Our PCs, powered by Intel Core Ultra processors as well as cutting edge AI tools allow students to focus, learn and create with ease. That's the power of Lenovo with Intel Inside plus, college students and teachers can get 5% off their order. Shop now on Lenovo.com the future's waiting and it needs you.

[Chloe Angel]

Every day has.

[Erica Lance]

A to do list, but adding Enjoy Belvita to yours can can help you.

[Chloe Angel]

Knock out the rest of it.

[Erica Lance]

Belvita Breakfast Biscuits are a tasty and.

[Chloe Angel]

Convenient breakfast option when paired with low fat yogurt and fruit that provide steady energy all morning while Belvita Energy Snack Bites give you the perfect mid morning refuel. Best part? They both taste great so make the most out of your morning with a bite of Belvita. Pick up a pack of Belvita at your local store today. Every business has an ambition. PayPal open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo pay later and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up when it's time to get growing. There's one platform for all business PayPal open grow today at paypalopen.com loans subject to approval in available locations.

[Wilhelmina Frankfort]

This is an iHeart podcast.