Lindsay (2:03)

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Aelin Lance Lesser (2:11)

Lindsay, it's so good to see you.

Lindsay (2:14)

So good to see you too.

Aelin Lance Lesser (2:16)

It's been a little while and I'm so excited to just be able to talk with you a bit today. How are you feeling?

Lindsay (2:24)

Good. I'm really looking forward to this. I feel like it's been forever since we've gotten to talk.

Aelin Lance Lesser (2:31)

Yeah, yeah, it is kind of wild. It's been like over a year and a half since our first interview, and now here we are sort of at the end of it all, which is amazing. From rococo Punch and iHeart podcasts, this is the Turning River Road. I'm Aelin Lance Lesser. So what's it been like to hear your story in full now out in the world?

Lindsay (3:28)

I have been telling people it's such a different experience hearing it being told, even though I'm the one telling it and even though I lived it and I've told the story so many times, it's a different experience hearing it. There's been moments when I've been really sad for that girl. There's moments when I'm so proud of her for her courage and bravery. One thing that stood out for me was the whiplash, you know, the back and forth. Am I loved? Am I not loved? Am I wanted? Am I hated? Am I in God's graces? Am I not in his graces? I think was so apparent to me at times. I was. Oh, my gosh, I cannot believe that I actually did live through all of that. It's been a crazy experience listening to it being told and I think in chronological order because, you know, I'll tell bits of my story here and there and depending on the audience, that depends on what I share. So I think hearing it from episode one all the way through has just been. It's been good. It's. Hasn't been triggering at all, which is great. I thought, you know, maybe there would be parts where it would be. And I've definitely cried at different parts and have experienced lots of emotions, but nothing to that, you know, set me back or anything, which has been great.

Aelin Lance Lesser (4:56)

Yeah. I mean, has it affected how you see everything that happened? Looking back, I think it has brought.

Lindsay (5:04)

Up a couple of things. So I'm in therapy right now, which has been wonderful, and it's been amazing. And one thing that I've kind of realized, and I think I was almost embarrassed to even think it or ashamed to think it, but before the first and second episode came out, I wanted to make a post on social media and I wanted to do a little collage. Some of it was the rings and the veil and the saltish. An excerpt from my journal that I had written from that time. The screenshot of Jess and I at the hearing, and then a smattering of the notes Victor had written me. Wasn't all of them just, like, some of them smattered around? And I looked at them and I started crying and not at all out of, like, love for him, you know, like, oh, my gosh, I miss him, or anything like that. It was more of. Was any of it real? Did he ever really, truly care about me? Because there. And I'm not talking about anything intimate, it was, you know, in those moments when maybe he gave me a song to put to music or he gave me a Bible verse to research because he knew I like doing that stuff. The times when he thought I was doing well and showed me that he was appreciating the work I was putting in, I was like, oh, what are these tears? And I kind of felt ashamed and embarrassed to even. I was like, why am I thinking having these thoughts? And I decided to bring it up in therapy and told her all this stuff, and she put down her pad and pen, and she was like, lindsay, everything you're saying is totally normal. And we started talking about Stockholm syndrome and how especially kids who were abused for such an early age, they kind of developed this. Oh, but they really did, you know, like, care for me and love me. And I think it's been so good to talk about it, because I've never talked about that part before. I'm definitely. I'm going to keep exploring it in therapy, and I think it's really good because I'm sure so many people deal with Stockholm syndrome and could feel ashamed or embarrassed or guilty of why they're having those thoughts. And so I think it's a really great thing to talk about. So that's one thing that after, like, seeing those notes from him and listening, that we're diving into therapy. That's been really great in bringing up.

Aelin Lance Lesser (7:42)

Stockholm syndrome or kind of feeling these positive emotions towards someone that has, you know, abused you. What is your interpretation of what was happening there and your reaction and what that means for you?

Lindsay (7:57)

Yeah, I think. Well, we've kind of, like, just gotten into it. But Victor, at a very young age, he became everything to me. You know, he took everything away, became, in a sense, my mother, my father, my teacher, my. Eventually lover, my apostle in my life, the person who I was supposed to look to for guidance as far as the Bible and heaven and everything. And so I already, you know, had gotten to the point where I knew and believed, truly believed it wasn't my fault. But I think it's just even having those hints of, like, looking at his handwriting, and I think it just reaffirms for me, you know, in talking with my therapist, that none of it was my fault, you know, that he came in and did all these things, and my reactions to it now, even if it is, like, wondering, oh, like, was any of it real at any point? That because he did all those things, that is a normal reaction to it. Yeah, I don't know if that makes sense at all. We're, like, definitely still in the beginning stages of working through this part.

Aelin Lance Lesser (9:09)

Yeah, and actually, that's a good point, too, in that so often my understanding is that as you process trauma, it might, like, change over time and how you feel about it changes. And there might be, you know, you're still kind of processing what happened, even though you've processed it so much. You know, you're not at a clear final conclusion or something. I mean, will anyone ever be right?

Lindsay (9:34)

Yeah. Constantly growing and evolving.

Aelin Lance Lesser (9:37)

But no, that makes sense that your interpretation is like, listen, whatever I'm thinking, even if I'm trying to seek his approval still, or wondering how he felt about me, like, that's not on me. Like, you were conditioned.

Lindsay (9:50)

Exactly. Yeah. I think it's helped me see that in other. And again, not like intimate relationships with boyfriends or anything, but maybe certain family members who had a sense of, you know, had this authority to them at times I was, you know, had this mentality of, oh, I want to make them happy. I want to do well. Whether it was completing a task or the way I thought about something or, you know, agreeing with them on a certain subject and explaining myself on why it's helped me see those things in my life and be like, oh, wow. Like, I think I reacted that way because of what happened, you know, and because of being conditioning to think that way. So it's been really, really good.

Aelin Lance Lesser (10:41)

Have you had reactions from other people in your life? From some of what I've heard, it seems like a lot of people have heard your story and support you. And, like, I've heard of people really, you know, having your back. And based on the feedback we've gotten, people think you're amazing. And I'm just curious if you've gotten some of that feedback directly yourself or what kinds of reactions you've gotten.

Lindsay (11:09)

Yeah, it's been pretty much all positive. So amazing. And I wasn't sure when it would come out in my mind. I thought, oh, there's going to be some negative people. And just bracing for that. But it's been for the majority, so wonderful people. I mean, random strangers saying amazing things, encouraging words. I even had a customer, a client that I was working with. He emailed me. He's like, I don't know if this is a weird way to say this. He was very, very gracious with what he wrote and said that he had been listening to my podcast and just really amazing things, and I thought that was really nice. You know, people here and reaching out and.

Aelin Lance Lesser (11:54)

Yeah, like, in your real life.

Lindsay (11:56)

Yes.

Aelin Lance Lesser (11:56)

People who might have never known exactly everything you've been through.

Lindsay (12:01)

Yeah.

Aelin Lance Lesser (12:02)

How'd that feel?

Lindsay (12:03)

Oh, it felt great. I'm. I was just like, oh, my goodness. You know, not weird at all. Thank you so much for saying something and for listening. I'm just really glad it's getting out there. Yeah. I've had a lot of positive feedback from family members. A number of family members I haven't heard from, which was kind of surprising. I thought maybe I would hear from more, but hopefully they're listening. I did reach out to one of my sisters before the podcast aired, and I kind of realized that she had never heard my story from, like, me telling it. It was probably what the media had told her, what the cult at the time was telling her. So I just reached out to her, let her know it would be coming out and that I'd appreciate it if she would take the time to listen and afterwards, if she would like to talk, I'd be open to that. Never heard from her. That was back in June. So I don't know if she's listened or not. But I'm definitely hoping that if people who did support Victor or gave excuses for what happened, if they listened to it, that their ears are open, you know, that because somebody can listen to something and it just, you know, go right over their head or something, that their hearts are really open to, to hearing what happened.

Aelin Lance Lesser (13:28)

Have you heard from anyone in the group or from River Road Fellowship?

Lindsay (13:34)

I did hear from one of the maidens. Brother and sister separately. Yeah, that was really, really nice. Just them sending a lot of encouragement. And one of them said, he was like, I think this is one of the best things I've ever heard. And your honesty and how tackle everything is just amazing. And I. I know when we talked in the beginning, I said, I want people to feel like they're just sitting with me and we're having a conversation. And that's a lot of the feedback I've gotten. How compelling, how genuine, how truthful, how calm I sound, which is wonderful because I wanted people just to get to know me. Even we are talking about really hard things and, you know, the laughs that you live in. I've laughed along with myself, you know, as I'm telling the story. It's just. Yeah, that's been good. So hearing from those two was great. Somebody commented on one of my posts on Facebook, but that's about it, I think. I wonder, you know, if they're listening and.

Aelin Lance Lesser (14:44)

Yeah. Any memories that we haven't delved into that you were reminded of or that have more recently come to mind or kind of stand out to you?

Lindsay (14:58)

Hearing Reese's voice on the podcast brought back a lot of memories from that time.

Aelin Lance Lesser (15:04)

Reese, the prosecutor on the case, Reese Fredrickson.

Lindsay (15:09)

I remember Jess and I preparing to meet him for the first time, and, of course, being nervous because it had been two years of almost nothing, you know, like, nothing going anywhere. And so just wondering if almost maybe the way he was thinking of us, you know, like, is he the real deal? He really gonna take on this case and fight for us? And so hearing him say that he knew within five seconds, I mean, I was like, what? That's crazy, because we knew. Or I'll speak for myself, but I know, I know Jess was, like, in it with us, knew right away that he was the one to represent us.

Aelin Lance Lesser (15:51)

And why'd you have that feeling?

Lindsay (15:53)

He just. He seemed very genuine, very compassionate, and just convinced that he was gonna find Victor and put him in jail for us, that you just got the sense that he wouldn't stop fighting until justice took place.

Aelin Lance Lesser (16:12)

Any other things like that that kind of came up for you?

Lindsay (16:16)

I mean, there were things that made me think back on those times, like hearing the maidens voices on the calls, hearing my mom's voice on the call. That would bring me back to those moments. I think hearing the maidens, especially that was hard because. Not because of, you know, them not supporting us, but again, of just hearing their voices and remembering some of the, like, good times and things and how things are so different now and wondering if they're listening to the podcast and what their opinion is of it. That was a little bit hard to hear them.

Aelin Lance Lesser (16:59)

It does seem like a reaction. You've said numerous times is what's painful is also the loss of your relationship with the other maidens and, like, missing aspects of that life. But because of what happened, a lot of that has been sort of destroyed, and that. That's part of the pain you now feel. Yeah, it's just an example of how these things can come up in a variety of ways, in ways that maybe an outsider might not think of initially.

Lindsay (17:37)

Right. You know, because they were my family for all those years, the only ones I really had. So, yeah, definitely, there's still a hole there that probably will never be filled. I mean, how do you feel a loss like that, losing nine of your best friends that you've grown up with since you were a kid? Hearing Jess's episode. Oh, that was. That was tough.

Aelin Lance Lesser (18:02)

Yeah.

Lindsay (18:03)

I love how she was conveyed so beautifully, though. You know, I think people really got the. Hopefully the sense of who she was and how beautiful and bright and her free spirit. But, yeah, that did. Like, when I heard her passing, that just brought back so many memories and like, just that I. You know, it was coven, so I couldn't go see. Go to the funeral. And, yeah, that was really hard. It's funny because a Facebook memory popped up today from five years ago. I had posted a picture of Jess and I and just talking about how much I missed her. And I was like, I sometimes find myself talking to you. And I said something like, you weren't supposed to leave this early, but you were always one step ahead of me. You know, since she had left the cult before I did, that was a tough one to hear. But also, I really. Beautifully done. I thought, yeah.

Aelin Lance Lesser (19:07)

What emotions came up for you?

Lindsay (19:11)

Sadness, happiness. Like, just a lot of memories. I. I don't know. When I think of Jess and I now, I always just picture us playing our guitars together because it's one of those happy, safe moments, you know, on the deck of the chapel with the wind blowing. And I think almost every time I see someone playing a guitar, Guitars in somebody's house, it brings me back to Jess and I. And not in a painful way, in a. Almost like a happy, longing type way. I visited a friend's house a couple weekends ago, him and his wife. He had a couple guitars there. And I was like, oh, like, one was a Martin. I said, oh, this is a really good one. I used to have my Dad's. It's probably 40 some years old by now, maybe. And he handed one of the guitars to me. I started playing and he was playing, and then later on he was at the piano, and they had like a whole karaoke setup. So we just started singing and jamming out. And I have not done that since the Maidens. And I really almost started crying, but I was like, come on, Lindsay, don't be weird. But yeah, it just kind of. And the wife was in the kitchen putting dishes away. And it just brought me back to being in the kitchen at the farmhouse at Made in Love, Some of the maidens cleaning up from dinner, some of us playing music and singing together. And it wasn't like those memories used to be really painful, but my tears weren't from pain. It was just from thankfulness, I think, for the time we did have together, even though it was so terrible, the situation we were in. Just a thankfulness that we had those sweet moments, you know, of just being ourselves and playing our instruments and having a moment of like, serenity in the midst of the chaos that was our lives. This message comes from Greenlight. Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely and invest with your guardrails in place with Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on what your kids are spending with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get started risk free@greenlight.com iheart a treasure.

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Lindsay (23:31)

Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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Aelin Lance Lesser (23:49)

Whoa.

Lindsay (23:50)

This thing moves.

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Lindsay (24:16)

I listen to can I talk about episode 10?

Aelin Lance Lesser (24:19)

Yeah, okay.

Lindsay (24:21)

Listen to that today twice. I was really proud of myself. I think Because I, you know, when I was talking about family members, listening to it and the people who've supported my parents and the excuses, I sounded very brave and bold. I was like, go me. And I'm glad that that came through on there because you should feel empowered as a survivor, you know. And the letter to Peggy, my mother, that was tough to hear. Definitely brought tears, especially now since I am a mom. I mean, every time I think about what I wrote there and then think about Frankie and I and just how different and wonderful our relationship is and what a contrast, you know?

Aelin Lance Lesser (25:06)

Yeah. Because you wrote that before you were a mom, talking about your future kids and now you have a kid.

Lindsay (25:15)

Yeah. I think a big topic that I've seen through all of this is breaking the cycle. Being raised that way, conditioned that way. For so long, I've had people ask me, oh, well, how did you know to do that with Frankie? Or how did you know to handle a situation like that? And I mean, I don't know if I have a full answer for that, but what I try to do is think about the way I was raised and how I would want to be treated as a kid and how I would want to be heard and, you know, loved and valued. And it's really helped me. You know, there's certain things that I will never do because it was done to me. And I think breaking the cycle, that's been like a big topic that's been on my mind. And I think it's important because so many people could go through something like this. And then you see examples of this where people will do something and people say, oh, well, look at how they were raised. Of course they did that because their parents did that and their grandparents did that. And it's so easy to just give excuses for that type of behavior, like, oh, well, that's just how they were raised. So of course they're going to repeat it when it doesn't have to be that way. There's another way to break that and to live your life and raise your kids, whatever your gonna do with your life. So hearing this story and then the parts about me and Frankie and seeing how our lives are now, it's been really apparent that I've been able to do that and I'm so thankful for that and hopefully we'll be able to share more of that on that topic as time goes on.

Aelin Lance Lesser (26:54)

Yeah, it's interesting. As I've been thinking about your story and sort of the way that you've shared it, something that strikes me is I'VE heard a lot of, you know, like cult documentaries and things in the world. But something that stands out about how you shared your story was the perspective of a kid. You know, you're just in it. You didn't have a say, you didn't get to decide and you just kind of were surviving and living and trying to find the joy where you could. And, and you did find the joy in some cases, you know. But you also faced a lot of horrible things. And seeing it from that perspective, from the beginning through the end, that struck me as I hear your story.

Lindsay (27:47)

Yeah, before this came out, I wanted to take Frankie to therapy with me just cause I thought it would be good. Like you never know, she doesn't have social media or a phone, but you just never know kids at school or what she's going to hear. I just thought it'd be good in case she had any questions. And I've never really told her in more depth other than like a concubine or my parents gave me away what had happened. So we went, booked a two hour session, like back to back so we'd have time. So my therapist met with her first just to get to know her, which was wonderful. And then we, I went in there as well and she had me start from the beginning to tell Frankie kind of what my childhood was like, which I've never even thought to do that. I thought it was great because it's her history too, you know, even though her grandparents did terrible things just to know what my life was like as a kid. Then of course we got to the point where we met Victor and then us moving to Minnesota and I was telling the story of how my mom had her siblings come through our house and say to them, oh, you know, all the pictures on the walls, if you want the frames, you know, take them. They were really nice frames. She would always, it was all of us as kids. She would get our pictures done at Olin Mills every year or a couple times a year. And one of them said, oh Peggy, don't you want the pictures? And she's like, no, I'm not taking them. And Frankie looked up and she's like, why didn't your mom love her kids? And like you were just saying, hearing from a child's perspective. I like looked at my therapist and tears started falling. I just never thought of that before, you know, like I've heard the story, I've told that story. But hearing it from a 10 year old's perspective and also knowing she thought that it was such a Foreign concept to her because she'll never know that kind of. She'll always be loved. She'll never know that kind of feeling of not being wanted by me. That was an emotional for me moment, hearing that from her.

Aelin Lance Lesser (30:04)

Yeah. It's almost like Frankie has allowed you to even see things differently or recognize things in your past that you didn't even kind of see before because maybe you're used to it. Has Frankie heard any of this?

Lindsay (30:24)

No.

Aelin Lance Lesser (30:25)

Of you telling your story? No.

Lindsay (30:26)

And, boy, she has asked so many times. Oh, Mommy, let me listen to 15 minutes. It'll be fine. I can handle it. No, I could tell her. I'm like, you know, some. I read this book by Corrie Ten Boom once. She was a lady who hid Jews during the Holocaust, and she went to Auschwitz when she was little. She told a story. She asked her dad a question, and her dad, they were getting off a train. He pulled the luggage down, and he said, corey, can you lift this? And she couldn't. And he said, sometimes some knowledge is too heavy for people to carry, so let me carry it for now. So I always use that with Frankie now just to give her, like, a visual. So I just tell her, let Mommy carry it for now. And when you're older and it's time, then we'll talk about it or listen to it. Yeah, but she tries or she's tried task. Yeah.

Aelin Lance Lesser (31:22)

What a beautiful visual, too. Or way of communicating that.

Lindsay (31:26)

Mm. Yeah. She's been so great, though. I mean, we're really good. There's a. Like, a few things that have happened. Well, she had a birthday party to go to right after school ended, and it was a pool party, and, like, a bunch of her friends are going to be there. So she told me, drop me off for a little bit and then come back to get me. So I was like, okay. We get there. And it turned out that she was one of two people who had responded that nobody else was going to be there. So she still told me. She's like, well, maybe leave for an hour and come back. So I started walking to my car, and I just got this feeling that I should stay. And I was like, all right, I'll grab my water and go back in. And all of a sudden, I heard footsteps running up behind me. And I turn around, and Frankie's running at me crying, asking me to stay, please stay. I don't want to be alone. Please stay. And I'm like, absolutely. I'm just grabbing my water and I'm coming in later on the way home, we're driving, and she at one point just quietly says, I'm sorry that I made you stay with me. And I. You know, when you have, like, a moment and it's. The moment is like a second, but it's like a million things go on in your mind in that split second.

Aelin Lance Lesser (32:50)

Yeah.

Lindsay (32:50)

I immediately thought of my mom not being there for me, you know, just. And feeling like, why would she even apologize? Why would Frankie feel the need to apologize? And I looked at her, and I was like, frankie, of course I stayed. You know, like, I'm your mother. I would never want to put you in a situation where you feel uncomfortable. Like, I will always be there for you. You never have to apologize to me for staying or being with you. And that was it. It was just like. Then we went on, and I. Again, I'm a crier. I dropped a couple tears, but just not out of, like, sadness. For me, it was out of just thankfulness. Knowing that, again, she'll never feel that kind of abandonment or having to apologize for her parent staying with her and caring for her, it was. There's been, like, little moments like that. I think that since the podcast has come out, I'm able to see things even clearer, whether it's me and Franke or even in my life. So I think that's just been really good.

Aelin Lance Lesser (33:55)

Yeah. It's like, what you've been through, although, I mean, it's so much, and you shouldn't have had to go through it. It informs how you're actually living day to day, how you're parenting, how you're navigating life.

Lindsay (34:13)

Yeah.

Aelin Lance Lesser (34:14)

I feel like something you repeated many times is, I just want to tell my story. I just want to get it out there in hopes that it can help other people or bring more awareness or just so some people don't feel alone and like, it's out there now.

Lindsay (34:32)

Yeah. I'm so glad somebody did reach out to me maybe a few weeks ago and said that they were also a survivor of sexual assault. And I remember when I first, like, the media went public in 2014, I was getting so many messages, and at that point, I hadn't had Frankie yet because she was born in summer of 2014. And then some of it, I was, you know, just a new mom, probably postpartum. I don't even think I knew what that was back then, but. And I didn't respond to anyone just because I was so overwhelmed. But this time, I knew that if anyone did reach out, I wanted to reach back out. And so I Did and tried to say some words of encouragement, asking if they had a support group, if they needed any resources, and it was great. They, you know, messaged back and I recommended a book to them, and they were like, oh, yeah, I've been meaning to read that, but haven't yet. So it was just. This is what I wanted from this. You know, if people reach out, being the state of mind that I'm at, the healing that I've done, being ready and able to do that, and hopefully there'll be more. I was hoping for more opportunities to open, and it looks like some will. So that's really exciting. So, yeah, I'm really thankful.

Aelin Lance Lesser (35:54)

Maybe this is a weird question, but do you have any thoughts about what you think Victor would think if he were to hear your story like this in full? I mean, he's obviously in prison at an undisclosed location. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Lindsay (36:13)

Oh, I mean, I could see him thinking that he talked so much about the persecution, you know, in the end times when we were younger. And I could see him that this is just more of, like, persecution and me not sticking to my vows and, you know, that my place in heaven is going to be less. I could see him going that route. I don't really know how he views, like himself, if he still thinks he's chosen. Because I. From what I've kind of heard, I don't even know if he has any supporters left. I don't know. Or like, does he feel shame at all? Does he feel that he did do these things and it's hard. I don't really know what he would think.

Aelin Lance Lesser (37:05)

Yeah. Also, maybe that's a weird question to even ask or to put that on you. I mean, in a way, it's kind of like, who cares?

Lindsay (37:12)

Yeah.

Aelin Lance Lesser (37:13)

But it's. It is also just like an interesting thought. Yeah. Like, is he still under this delusion or this belief?

Lindsay (37:24)

Yeah. One of the last things I heard about him, too, is he wasn't really with it in his mind. So is he even with it enough to hear this or make sense of it? I don't know.

Aelin Lance Lesser (37:37)

I just wonder in that period when he was arrested and then in prison, even awaiting trial, what did Victor tell his followers? Or maybe you don't know because, like, you weren't among them. But considering, you know, even when you talk to Peggy, your mom, and she said mistakes were made. So on some level, maybe she was acknowledging something happened. And then even in the prison recordings, Victor acknowledged to some degree that he had done Something wrong or he had made mistakes or something. What do you think he was telling his followers? Do you think he ever really acknowledged to them what he had done? I mean, obviously he pled guilty, but did he just kind of avoid it, but kind of acknowledge maybe something happened?

Lindsay (38:24)

Yeah. So when it came out that he was sleeping with the married women, he shared it in a way that made you feel bad for him. He had been tempted and just like David with the Bathsheba, you know, that story in the Bible. So maybe it was along those lines. I did say speak with somebody who was also grew up in the cult. And he shared with me that during that time, he did admit to everyone that he did those things to Jess and I, but only Jess and I. But I don't know. Again, you know, it could have been shared from a place where you feel bad for him instead of actually recognizing that, well, one he did it to. You're telling me only two of the maidens? I mean, come on, take the blinders off, people. Yeah, so that was news. I just found that out not too long ago. But again, even he was like. I mean, was it really repentance? No. So he may have just admitted to that to maybe help people be like, okay, well, Lindsay and Jess are like speaking these evil things and. And you know, Victor did do it, but the blood of the lamb covers all sin, just like they've said to all of us so many times before. So I don't know that he. Yeah, I don't think if he did share anything, it was out of like a true repentant heart. It was probably just, okay, I did it. I'm gonna probably be going to jail. But in a way where you would still feel badly for him.

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Lindsay (41:24)

Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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Aelin Lance Lesser (42:02)

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Aelin Lance Lesser (42:44)

Another question that I've actually gotten from people is just about what people knew at the time, which in a way is part of the crux of the story. And ultimately it comes back to the question of kind of like how could this have happened? But what do you think people in the group knew at the time or could have deduced at the time as far as the abuse that was happening?

Lindsay (43:13)

I personally will never not think that they didn't know, especially the elders, the parents of the maidens, the ones who lived at the camp. I mean, I don't know. I. I have a very hard time believing it. And I truly just think that if they still claim, oh, I didn't know or I thought something was going on, but I think that they just don't want to admit because that is, I mean, if you admit it, then you are saying that you took part in it, to knowing and not doing anything and the abuse of those girls happening, how do you then live with yourself? I've always said that about my parents. If they really truly did admit what was happening, I don't know that they would be able to. Like, how do you continue to go on? Because knowing that, oh my gosh, I let my daughter be raped by that man for all those years and I knowingly gave her away. And when she was 13, he would wait till she was 18. Like, I just think there's too many red flags. And these people. It's not like they grew up in a cult either. That's. I mean, most of them had normal upbringings as children and in their families. And I know some people still give that excuse. Well, they didn't really know. And I've never been one to buy into that. I just don't think that's true.

Aelin Lance Lesser (44:44)

That's a really interesting point you're making about how part of it might be how they're sort of rewriting their past now. Or how. Yeah. As soon as they admit that, then there are all these other consequences. So whether they're telling themselves that or telling others that it could be that they're just not willing to go there.

Lindsay (45:11)

No, definitely. And, I mean, Victor would travel in 1999, it started, I believe, he would travel to different locations with his camper. And generally it was then the girls who became the maidens, us taking care of him, who were assigned to, you know, bring him coffee or help him with his notes or things like that. So I just don't buy it. I honestly don't. Anyone who was close to Victor or lived at the camp, that kind of stuff, I just don't believe it. I still think it would be great to talk with, like, a brainwashing expert or, you know, somebody who has. Who's studied that really well, who knows it. Because I know. I've heard that a lot. Oh, they were brainwashed and. But again, I. I don't know. I don't buy into that either. My mother was very smart. She went to college. She. People always say, oh, she was smart as a whip. She had so much going for her. But the fact that even when we moved to the camp and she wanted to put on her wedding dress when we got there, it just shows me she knew what she was doing. She wasn't just some brainwashed idiot who was going there. Like, la de da. She. I don't know.

Aelin Lance Lesser (46:26)

What does that show to you?

Lindsay (46:28)

To me, it shows that she knew that she was making a commitment to move to Minnesota to join herself to Victor. The fall before Tabernacles, 1998, Victor had taken off his wedding ring and done the. The church is married to Jesus Christ. They're the bride of Christ. I'm taking off my wedding ring representing that. So her putting on her wedding dress signified. I mean, what I can imagine now was her showing that, we're moving here, We're Committing our lives to living for the hope for Jesus Christ with you. She knew what she was doing. So for me, it's bad excuses. I hear it mostly with my mother. She wasn't in her right mind. She didn't know what she was doing. She was brainwashed. I just. I don't believe it. And you're telling me that happened that fast? I don't know how long brainwashing takes to work, but we are living out in the, like, regular world, you know, like regular people. November of 98, we move there. By the summer of 99, you're having me sleep in a camper with him. I just. Just doesn't make sense in my mind.

Aelin Lance Lesser (47:36)

Yeah.

Lindsay (47:37)

I mean, how could you be so far gone that you don't see any red flags and don't say anything? And maybe fear. I mean, my dad did say that at one point he was afraid to get kicked out, so he didn't say anything. But then, I mean, that's a choice that you made. You decided to live by fear instead of being a parent and doing what's right and getting your kid and family out of there. So even if people say, oh, yeah, they were brainwashed, well, there's still consequences to actions. Like, you still have to admit to what you did and take accountability and. Yeah, yeah. We've been talking about my parents a lot in therapy. We've been talking about the history of them, what they were like as I was a child, to see if we could put any pieces together of why they did what they did. I was sharing how my mom, she actually admitted at an Amway conference that she was an alcoholic. I didn't know that until after I left the cult, but I'd remembered in second grade, I was in charge of getting myself out, making my lunch, and getting myself on the bus while my mom would still be sleeping. And I didn't know that she was drunk, but there were times that I would miss the bus because I got busy watching cartoons. And second grade, you're what, seven? So really young to be responsible for all that. And I'd go up there and try to wake her, and she'd tell me to go to the neighbors, to have the neighbor drive me to school. And then, you know, just how, like, things changed. The more babies came along, the less things she had planned for us, the more we had to play with ourselves. And so the therapist was like, maybe the five kids. It was almost too. Not that that's an excuse, you know, for a parent. But then when Victor made it available for you to go to the camp. It was one less child for her to deal with, basically, in a way, which, I mean, could be it. I don't really know.

Aelin Lance Lesser (49:32)

Yeah. In a way, it's hard to ever really understand.

Lindsay (49:38)

Yeah.

Aelin Lance Lesser (49:39)

We also talked with Krista Lester pitch, who was basically born into river road fellowship. She wasn't a maiden, but, you know, was a part of the group. What was it like Hearing her story or her perspective, hearing some of what.

Lindsay (49:59)

She had to go through was sad. It just confirmed, again, the abuse that was happening on. On all different levels. Not just, you know, being raped, but as far as being shamed and the control and the mind games. And I think I never really heard of someone's perspective on the maidens from when we were there, Like a younger girl, what they thought of us. So hearing her say that, what the maidens wore, we kind of became like, ooh, well, I want that. And just how much we were, in a sense, idolized. I was like. I think I knew maybe, like, we were put on a pedestal, but I didn't know that that was the reaction that people were having towards us. And it was crazy to hear because she was saying all those things and almost how our life looked great from the outside, you know, from her perspective, able to do all those things when. And then knowing what I was really going through.

Aelin Lance Lesser (50:56)

Yeah.

Lindsay (50:57)

That was like, oh, my gosh. But then you're thinking, oh, I want this pattern. But you had no idea what was happening behind the scenes, Just how, you know, must have been portrayed to other people of how our lives were and.

Aelin Lance Lesser (51:11)

Yeah. What was really going on.

Lindsay (51:13)

I would say that was, like, a little hard to listen to, because knowing that that's how people probably viewed us. But really, at the time, I probably was screaming on the inside to, like, leave and being verbally abused, raped, mentally, you know, like, all the things every single day. And then everyone on the outside was like, oh, well, I want to be a maiden, or I want to wear what they're wearing or their hair, like they have it. And, yeah, that was hard.

Aelin Lance Lesser (51:46)

Yeah. I'm sorry that you had to experience that.

Lindsay (51:49)

Oh, it's okay. It was just hearing it from a different perspective, you know, that that's what probably other people thought.

Aelin Lance Lesser (51:57)

Yeah. And I can also imagine it's different when it's a girl who's younger than you who was born into the group. That's her reaction at the time. You know, she's a child as well, versus what I can imagine the perspective of the adults was, you know, what I Mean, like, she had always been a kid in a way, like, didn't know any better. You know what I mean?

Lindsay (52:22)

Yeah. I'm really glad she was able to leave. And I messaged her after hearing episode eight. Just saying that her kids are so lucky to have her and just her, like, love for them. And I'm really glad she was able to get out of there and start her life.

Aelin Lance Lesser (52:41)

What's life like for you now?

Lindsay (52:44)

It's good. Life is going really well. I am, like, working on a few things, which has been really exciting. A couple essays that I'm going to submit to a couple different columns and have been in touch with a book agent. That's been really exciting. And I want to have a platform I want to do. If anyone wants to have me speak at anything. I'd love to, but, yeah, I want to do more speaking engagements. There's so much to tell. I think I definitely need to work on exactly, like, what my message would be or, like, what topics I'd want to talk about. Because you could go in so many different directions with this.

Aelin Lance Lesser (53:28)

Don't I know it.

Lindsay (53:29)

Yeah. Yeah. Seeing some of these come to fruition or being worked on is amazing.

Aelin Lance Lesser (53:36)

That's exciting. I'm really glad that you're feeling good in general about it all and that you feel like you have some exciting things on the horizon. That's great.

Lindsay (53:47)

Yeah. Other than that, it's like the, you know, being a single mom, you never have a day off. So, I mean, I don't know if I should limit that to single moms, because parents are. They always have, but they always are on, you know, for their kids. But it just falls. Everything falls on me.

Aelin Lance Lesser (54:04)

Yeah. I think you're allowed to say. Okay, the single mom thing is. Is a lot.

Lindsay (54:10)

Yeah. So it's just a lot of we're thick and already started school and all sports. I'm so excited. Frankie is barrel racing in her first rodeo in September, which I know makes me so thankful when I found in her journal. When we first moved to Texas in 2022, we went to our first rodeo here, and I had found later that she had written. My mom took me to a rodeo tonight, and I saw barrel racing, and I know that that's what I want to do. She was 8 at the time. Wait.

Aelin Lance Lesser (54:46)

Okay. Pause. Wait. I don't know what barrel racing is. Oh, what is that?

Lindsay (54:51)

It's where they come out of the chute, riding the horse really fast. It's in an arena. They have three barrels set up almost like in a Triangle. So you come out of the shoe, and there's a barrel a little bit further down on the right, one on the left, and then way down in the middle. So you race around the barrels in a pattern and get timed. So she fell in love with it, and she started riding. And the girl that we're riding with now, her trainer is absolutely amazing. She's so well connected, so generous with her time with Frankie, and so, yeah, she's able to ride in her first rodeo. I looked at her the other day, and I was like, do you ever think about the rodeo coming up and this is, like, a dream come true of yours? She's like, yeah, all the time. And it made me so happy because, I mean, I feel like I relate everything back to what I didn't have, which I guess would say, okay, because I'm, like, in. In a thankfulness type of way. I didn't have that from my parents, and so I'm. It just made me so thankful that I'm at a place in my life where I can give her these things and support her. So that's really exciting for her and for me.

Aelin Lance Lesser (56:11)

That is amazing. That is so cool that Frankie's doing that. Yeah, I'm very impressed.

Lindsay (56:17)

Yeah. So that's great. And she's in drill team through school, so that's exciting. She has her first dance at the Frisco Rough Riders game in August, the end of August here, so that's exciting. Yeah, it's just. I feel like my life really revolves around her right now. It's just that stage, you know, which is fine. I love it. Like, I'm totally here for it. I'm gonna blink, and she's gonna be off to college, so I'm just trying to really savor it all.

Aelin Lance Lesser (56:50)

Yeah.

Lindsay (56:50)

Yeah. So honestly, not like, a ton of stuff I'm doing for myself other than therapy. Writing. I've started on some more reading.

Aelin Lance Lesser (56:59)

You sound pretty busy.

Lindsay (57:01)

Yeah, to me. Yes. Really busy. And I honestly don't mind hanging out with Frankie, which sounds weird, but, you know, I mean, I hear some parents, like, ugh, like, complain about their kids. And, yes, you know, we have our arguments and stuff, but the majority of the time, it's tons of laughs. And even grocery shopping together is fun, and I just love having her around, so it's good. It's a good season of life.

Aelin Lance Lesser (57:27)

Love that. Well, is there anything else you wanted to say in response to everything, or.

Lindsay (57:35)

I'm just so thankful for you and Erica and the whole team. The whole team. Please, like, you probably have. But just my thanks to everyone who's worked on this. I. I'm really thankful that you guys helped make this a reality. And I mean, that's one thing. Just very thankful for you guys, really.

Aelin Lance Lesser (57:55)

Thank you, Lindsay, for taking the time to really just open up and be so vulnerable to share your story. And also, thanks for talking with me today too.

Lindsay (58:07)

Oh my gosh. I was so excited.

Aelin Lance Lesser (58:09)

Yeah, it's been too long.

Lindsay (58:11)

It's too long. Yeah. I'm so glad we were able to do this.

Aelin Lance Lesser (58:31)

The Turning is a production of Recovery, Coco Punch and iHeart podcasts. It's written and produced by Erica, Lance and me. Our story editor is Emily Forman. Mixing and sound design by James Trout. Grace Doe is our production assistant. Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Our executive producers are John Peratti and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch and Katrina Norvell and nikki etor@iheart podcast. You can follow us on Instagram at Rococo Punch and you can reach out via email. Theturningcocopunch.com I'm Aelin Lance Lesser.

Lindsay (59:08)

Thanks for listening.

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Lindsay (61:00)

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