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- [00:00]
Host 1
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
Host 2
Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime.
- [00:11]
Host 3
On the new podcast America's Crime Lab. Every case has a story to tell and the DNA holds the truth.
- [00:18]
Host 4
He never thought he was going to get caught and I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.
- [00:24]
Host 1
This technology's already solving so many cases.
- [00:28]
Host 3
Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:35]
Kelly Harnett
The Girlfriends is back with a new season, and this time I'm telling you the story of Kelly Harnett. Kelly spent over a decade in prison for a murder she says she didn't commit. As she fought for her freedom, she taught herself the law.
- [00:48]
Host 1
He goes, oh God.
- [00:49]
Kelly Harnett
Harnett Jailhouse Lawyer and became a beacon of hope for the women locked up alongside her.
- [00:55]
Host 2
You're supposed to have been faith in.
- [00:56]
Host 1
God, but I had nothing but faith in her.
- [00:58]
Host 3
I think I was put here to save souls by getting people out of prison.
- [01:03]
Kelly Harnett
The Go Jailhouse Lawyer listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:12]
Uncle Chris
My Uncle Chris was a real character, a garbage truck driver from South Carolina who is now buried in Panama City alongside the founding families of Panama. He also happens to be responsible for the craziest night of my life. Wild stories about adventure, romance, crime, history and war intertwine as I share the tall tales and hard truths that have helped me understand Uncle Chris. Listen now to Uncle Chris on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [01:45]
Host 2
I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that.
- [01:52]
Lindsay
Meant for my heart. Podcasts and Rococo Punch this is the Turning River Road. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of but in 2014, the youngest escaped. Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:16]
Host 3
Before we start, a quick note that in this series we'll touch on a lot of topics, including dieting or disordered eating, sexual assault and suicide. We want to let listeners know so they can make an informed decision on when or where to listen. We'll have specific content warnings in each episode description if you prefer to check before listening.
- [02:38]
Host 2
I don't think I knew why I loved him. I just knew that Everyone did. Specifically the women. I don't think at the time I connected that, but looking back on it, they wanted to be around him and got all giddy when he would show up and wanted to physically wash his feet like they did for Jesus in the Bible.
- [03:12]
Host 3
One day, Lindsay was at a fellowship meeting with a few dozen people. It was in the house of one of the members. Everyone was cozied up on couches, chairs, or cushions on the floor. And they were excited because Victor was there. He didn't always go to the smaller fellowship meetings like this one. In the middle of the meeting, everything stopped. Victor screamed. He was angry. No one had given him a rose. Apparently, that's something people used to do for the leader of the Way, the cult that River Road grew out of. Victor was so angry, he threw someone out of the meeting. Afterwards, Lindsay's mom wanted to show her love for Victoria. She didn't want him to be angry anymore. So Lindsay's mom flicked on the intercom that connected to Victor's RV and she began to sing.
- [04:06]
Host 2
And for love we will follow. And my mom went and sang, like, this song of love. Follow where you lead. It was a song about declaring your love for the shepherd Jesus Christ. Our hearts join together as one. Basically declaring her love and loyalty to Victor over the intercom. Together in sweet harmony. I remember, like, just watching her sing, and she was so excited and so happy.
- [04:57]
Host 3
Lindsay's mom beckoned her to join in, but to Lindsay, it felt really awkward. Like it was forced.
- [05:06]
Host 2
I was 12. I had no idea, like, what love was, or I think, like, I joined in a couple sentences, but I was really shy and not, definitely not as excited and into it as she was. Yeah, I'd say she was definitely obsessed with him.
- [05:41]
Host 3
Victor Bernard, the leader of River Road Fellowship, declared the summer of 1999 the summer of Love. He led his congregation with this theme at the forefront. It was baked into his sermons, the songs they sang, even how he interacted with his followers. Love, and demonstrating that love through action was at the center of it all. It's like Victor was determined that each one of them would fall in love with him one way or another. For some of them, it was immediate. For others, it took longer. But eventually, they were all pulled in, each in their own way. And if you didn't feel that love, you'd still get caught in the current, pulled out into the water till you couldn't touch the ground. From Rococo Punch and I Heart podcasts, this is the turning river Road.
- [06:55]
Lindsay
I'm Aelin Lance Lesser and I'm Erica Lance. Part 2 Summer of Love.
- [07:09]
Host 3
One thing I noticed about what you just said is how the women always wanted to wash his feet the way they did in the Bible. But isn't it kind of the opposite in the Bible that Jesus washes his disciples feet? Which is just interesting to me that somehow in this interpretation it's kind of the opposite of the lesson that I think, at least I typically hear when I hear the washing of the feet.
- [07:40]
Host 2
Oh, absolutely. I mean in the Bible it talks about, you know, Jesus. I feel like he's always giving of himself to the apostles, to people in need. Healing the sick, healing the lepers. It just looking back, it feels like the total opposite of how Victor was. I started reading some of my journal from 2005, 2006. The amount of times in there that I have, we have no shampoo. Like we're praying for God to bless us with shampoo and conditioner or we have no fruits and vegetables or we had no bread. Then the next sentence it would be that the church is building Victor this huge house. He had a motorcycle at one point, like a Cadillac Escalade, an rv, a coach. And there was a summer where I had one four panel olive green skirt that I had made and two T shirts to wear. That's it all summer long. And yeah, it's just crazy to think it was such the opposite.
- [08:54]
Host 1
Women fawned over him. He was more important than their husbands. He was more important than their children. He was more important than anything.
- [09:05]
Lindsay
Krista Lester Pitch was another girl in River Road Fellowship. Her family had been in it for a long time, long before Lindsay arrived at the camp or even knew it existed. The culture that might look so foreign to an outsider was the air Christa breathed. But sometimes Christa felt like she was the only one who saw the absurdity of some of the things Victor said. Like everyone was looking through a different lens at a different picture than she was.
- [09:35]
Host 1
It's hard to really put it into words, but I was always a little different than everybody else. My personality, just the way that my brain operated. Come to find out, as an adult, I am neurodivergent. There are things that make me very, very smart. But there are also things that I have setbacks in and those did not work to my advantage as a child. There were things that I saw through that other people may not have. And there were things about my personality that people who mattered didn't like.
- [10:14]
Lindsay
She had an escape, though. She loved to read. As long as Christa had her Little House in the Prairie books nearby. She could endure anything. Krista remembers when Victor used to leave their compound to recruit people. It was on one of these trips that he recruited Lindsay's parents. When he traveled all the way to Pennsylvania for dinner and said Lindsay had to quit gymnastics, Krista and the others would gather to send him off, waving as his RV pulled away. The trip should be simple enough, but each time Victor left the camp, it was an ordeal.
- [10:50]
Host 1
Looking back on it, I can recognize that he was starting to put himself on a pedestal. It was very dramatic that he was leaving. It was, he may never come back again. He may never see us again. Everybody was just broken over this concept, but, like, this is what he had to do. This was God's will. And he started to cry, and then everybody started to cry. I remember after he left and we carried on, the women would not stop, just breaking down in tears, Even my mom. And I'd be like, mom, why are you crying? Because Victor might never be coming back. And I'm like, I remember saying, of course he's coming back. And she was just, you know, that's not what he said. And he did come back, obviously. And I felt like it was just a big, dramatic show to, you know, get more of an emotional rise out of people.
- [11:45]
Lindsay
But that's what it was like growing up. Christa had a chance to observe Victor up close for a while. She and her family even lived with him.
- [11:54]
Host 1
I was born into it. I've known Victor since basically the day I was born, so I saw the evolution firsthand. I. I witnessed.
- [12:11]
Lindsay
Victor wasn't always this prophet on a commune who had women following him everywhere. Before Christa knew Victor, before she was even born, Victor was just a kid growing up in Minneapolis. It sounds like Victor was pretty popular growing up. Everybody knew him. A classmate said he was charismatic, and his friends called him a party animal. Victor was voted class president. He was captain of the hockey team, which in Minnesota is kind of a big deal, especially at the prestigious private high school he went to called Breck. Victor's family life was a little more chaotic, though. His parents got divorced when he was 6, and his dad says his mom had bipolar disorder, even though they didn't know what it was at the time. When Victor finally went to college in upstate New York, he played hockey there. His mom would still call him sometimes, and at least according to his dad, after one of those phone calls, he was really upset and crying. One of the people in his dorm was walking by and said, you look like you need Jesus in your life. And that's when he found the Way International. Joining the Way was a turning point in Victor's life. He dropped out of school, moved back to the Midwest to focus on the Way, this giant religious group or cult, depending on how you look at it at that point, some of his friends would even say that he would try to convert them to the Way. And he followed their policy called Mark and Void, which basically meant if people in your life didn't agree with your views, you'd cut them out. When the Way's founder died and the group started to break up, Victor moved back to the Twin Cities in Minnesota. He got a job at a company that sold mailing machines in 1989. And that's where Krista and her family come in.
- [14:10]
Host 1
My dad was one of the top salesmen in the company, so he, you know, trained people. And Victor got hired as a salesman. And Victor quickly glommed onto my dad. And honestly, I think my dad was just in a very vulnerable place.
- [14:32]
Lindsay
Both of Krista's parents were in recovery from drug addiction and their marriage had hit a rough patch.
- [14:37]
Host 1
Victor had a way of, well, he was very charismatic. I mean, I know from experience in a. A one on one situation, he could be very kind and very engaging and very approachable.
- [14:57]
Lindsay
Victor began inviting Christa's parents over to his house for these informal Bible fellowships. They always declined, but they started hanging out with Victor and his wife. They had this budding friendship.
- [15:08]
Host 1
They would get invited to dinners at the Barnard's house. And my dad began to realize that every single night that they were invited to these dinners were the same night that these Bible fellowships were happening. And still they were declining. They were like, no, thank you. We, you know, we're just gonna go home. Finally, Victor came to my parents house. It was on a Saturday, and his fellowship group was on a little camping trip nearby. And Victor invited them to the Sunday morning fellowship. My mom was standing in the kitchen with her arms crossed, and my mom said, well, I love God, but I hate organized religion. And Victor said, laura, if you love God, you'll love this. And that was the hook that they needed to go. They were faithful followers from 1990 until 2016. They just became immersed in this church. It became their Life.
- [16:34]
Lindsay
In the mid-90s, Victor had a big idea. Years later he would say God told him to do it. Buy a camp north of the Twin Cities, create a live in center for their group, which by now he had started calling River Road Fellowship. So they did. The camp was a set of cabins A dining hall, a large meeting room they could use as a chapel. There were pine trees mixed in with small, open grassy areas where they could garden and grow food. They built some new buildings of their own and a barn for animals. Just beyond the barn, a small pond drained into a lake. A wooden bridge arched over the stream between them. The bridge was kind of unnecessary. You could easily walk around the pond to get to the other side. But it added to the cozy, peaceful feel of the camp. Victor named it the Shepherd's camp. Shepherd as in Jesus the shepherd to his flock of believers and Victor the Shepherd, who would eventually start wearing biblical shepherd's clothing and walk around with a large shepherd's crook. Victor and his family moved to the shepherd's camp, and his followers did too. Then, not too far from this main compound, they bought four other plots of land. Other sites they turned into mini satellite compounds, these groups of trailers and fields a few minutes drive away. Each of these other sites became like little worlds of their own. Each was a cluster of maybe half a dozen families. They hosted their own fellowships of singing and prayer and speaking in tongues. With the exception of men who had outside jobs, followers almost never left their compounds. Victor traveled between the shepherd's camp and the surrounding River Road fellowship properties in his rv, leading fellowships and spending time with his followers. And on special occasions, all of the members of the group from all of the properties would gather together at their center, the beautiful shepherd's camp.
- [18:40]
Host 1
He really focused on raising up the men to be leadership and to lead their own fellowships. I remember one time Victor sent all the men in the church out on what they called a duo. And duo is also carryover from the Way. And it's basically a solo camping trip. And it's you and God and you pray and see what God has to say to you. And Victor claims that it was on one of these duos when he was in the Way, that God called him to lead the flock, to shepherd the flock. So we sent all the men out on the duo, and this is something that my mom told me. He gathered the women at the shepherd's camp and said, you know, I've been focusing on the men, but now I'm going to start focusing on the women. And that was really, I think, the beginning of him starting to, like, groom the married women. And a few years later, he started focusing on the children.
- [20:17]
Narrator
A foot washed up, a shoe with.
- [20:19]
Host 1
Some bones in it.
- [20:20]
Host 4
They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.
- [20:27]
Host 3
These are the coldest of cold cases. But everything is about to change.
- [20:32]
Host 2
Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime.
- [20:39]
Host 3
A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA Using new scientific tools, they're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.
- [20:49]
Host 4
He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen.
- [20:53]
Host 1
I was just like, ah, gotcha.
- [20:56]
Host 3
On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors, and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at othram, the Houston lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:16]
Danielle Roubais
Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.
- [21:25]
Host 1
I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.
- [21:30]
Danielle Roubais
I'm Danielle Robaix and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from hello Sunshine and I Heart Podcasts. Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers and more to explore the stories that shape us on the page and off. I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick, deep diving book talk theories and obsessing over book to screen casts for years. And now I get to talk to the people making the magic. So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character or cried at the last chapter or passed a book to a friend saying, you have to read this, this podcast is for you. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [22:18]
Lindsay
From iHeart podcasts and rococo Punch, this is the turning river road.
- [22:24]
Host 2
I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant.
- [22:36]
Lindsay
In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse.
- [22:43]
Host 2
Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man and and thinking to the point that if I died for him, that would be the greatest honor.
- [22:54]
Lindsay
But in 2014, the youngest of the girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt.
- [23:01]
Host 2
For all those years, you know, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey.
- [23:10]
Lindsay
Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts from.
- [23:17]
Narrator
Iheart Podcasts. Before social media, before the Internet, before cable news, there was Alan Berg.
- [23:24]
Host 4
You dig what I do. You have a need. Unfortunately, you have no sense of humor. That's why you can't ever enjoy this show, and that's why you're a loser. He was the first and the original shock jock.
- [23:35]
Host 3
That scratchy, irreverent kind of way of talking to people.
- [23:38]
Host 4
You're as dumb as the rest. That's. I can't take anyone. I don't agree with you all the time. I don't want you to. I. I hope that you pick me apart.
- [23:45]
Narrator
His voice changed media. His death shocked the nation.
- [23:48]
Host 3
And it makes me so angry that he got himself killed because he had a big mouth.
- [23:53]
Host 4
KOA morning talk show host Alan Berg reportedly was shot and killed tonight in downtown Denver. He pointed to the Denver phone book and said, well, There are probably 2 million suspects. This guy aggravated everybody.
- [24:05]
Narrator
From iheart podcasts, this is Live Wire. The loud life and shocking murder of Alan Berg. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [24:18]
Host 3
Everyone at the shepherd's camp and the surrounding properties hung on Victor's teachings, which were Christian, but he had some ideas of his own. Victor seemed to use one device to motivate his followers. Urgency.
- [24:32]
Host 1
1998, 1999, Victor started teaching about what he called the sign of the Son of Man, which is not the return of Jesus Christ, but it's the sign that he is coming. And it was going to be like, it's going to be super bright, it's going to be super obvious. We don't know exactly what it's going to look like, but we're going to know it when we see it. And when we see the sign of the Son of Man, we all have to meet at the Shepherd's camp. They had built, like this structure out of popple trees, and we called it the Booth. We were all supposed to get to the booth as fast as we could. And because of that, we were not allowed to travel more than 30 minutes from home. It was very limited where we could go, especially in such a small town. It takes more than 30 minutes to get pretty much anywhere.
- [25:30]
Host 3
They put a lantern on the wooden bridge over the pond. Victor said the light was there so when Jesus came back, he would know where to find them.
- [25:38]
Host 2
It was lit every night, no matter the weather, no matter if there was a blizzard out, if it was storming, that lantern was lit every night. So I think maybe this was to create that like sense of urgency that you better be ready.
- [25:56]
Host 3
They knew the day could come at any moment that Jesus would arrive for them. All the truest believers in the world. And then one Sunday morning, Lindsay heard the big bell outside her family's trailer start to ring.
- [26:15]
Host 2
The bell started ringing, the phone started ringing. I remember like my mom yelling, the eagles are gathering. The eagles are gathering.
- [26:23]
Host 3
She could hear other people screaming nearby. They were on the camp's satellite property called Three Taverns.
- [26:29]
Host 2
Everyone just like went crazy. Jesus Christ was coming back. This was it. He was coming. We were going to heaven. I remember my mom being like so excited, like, oh my gosh, we gotta get to the shepherd's camp. We can't miss it. You could see all the cars just flying off of Three Taverns, the dirt just like flying up the dust clouds.
- [26:57]
Host 3
Everyone gathered outside Taberna, the dining hall, the pond and the ever present lantern were right in front of was the end times.
- [27:07]
Host 2
This was it. Jesus Christ is coming back.
- [27:13]
Host 3
And then Victor came out with an announcement. Actually, Jesus was not coming back today. This was just a test to see if they were ready for when the day came.
- [27:25]
Host 2
We were told it's just a drill. But everyone was in a great mood. Everyone was happy. People were laughing. He was like, oh my gosh, like, I can't believe, you know, you left your oven on. Like, what were you thinking? And we were like, the rapture was here, you know, like the Lord was coming back. It wouldn't have mattered anyway if the oven blew up. I think there was some disappointment, but it didn't overshadow the anticipation of what it could be, of this happening for real.
- [28:03]
Host 3
Even though Christ hadn't returned, Lindsay felt like the experience bonded everyone there, as if this chaotic emotional experience brought them even closer. They were the lucky ones to be part of this special group, the true believers on earth. They knew Jesus would come for them soon. They could see it.
- [28:30]
Host 1
The first thing that came out after the 30 minute rule was we weren't allowed to touch or hug people anymore. Like there was like a no touch rule. Unless it was Victor. Then we could hug him and kiss him and snuggle with him and do whatever we wanted. Like, but anybody else, unless you were like moving away from like a property to another property and weren't gonna see like your friends anymore, you could give him a hug, but other than that, hands off.
- [28:56]
Host 3
Oh my God, like, how did he justify that?
- [29:02]
Host 1
It was his idea of helping to keep things holy. And that's all I Remember I was so young, I just remember understanding that I wasn't allowed to hug my friends anymore.
- [29:14]
Lindsay
Victor's overarching principle through all these rules was called living in the light. Basically living your life in a way that you had nothing to hide from Victor or the church elders. You should be comfortable having them know everything about you. Anything else was darkness. Victor said if you were faithful in the specific ways he prescribed, you'd get special treatment in heaven. Like being the elite of the elite, you get an extra special reward.
- [29:44]
Host 1
We'd each get our own planet when we went to heaven because he's like, why are all these those galaxies and planets out there? And he tied that to Jesus Christ saying, I go to prepare a place for you. In my Father's house are many mansions. And he believed the galaxies were the quote, unquote, many mansions. What he started teaching was that maybe all the different churches that existed over time would get their own galaxies and we all get our own planets to live on. But you know, we talk about, like, what's going to be on our planet and just like, stupid things, like, I'm gonna have like my favorite breakfast every day on my planet, or I'm gonna sleep in the most comfortable hammock in the world on my planet. Anything that could possibly be ultimate comfort and happiness to you on Earth, you're gonna get to have all of those at your disposal on your planet. Which to me sounded incredibly lonely just living on a planet all by myself. If you want to be a part of the extra special heaven, that would mean that you had to. What he called stay in the sufferings, because to suffer with him is to reign with him. If we suffer, we will reign with him, which essentially means stay in the cult, stay in the church. He worked very hard to teach us everything that he wanted us to know and everything that he wanted us to believe. Class after class, after class. And we would be out at these classes, sometimes till midnight, one or two o', clock, listening to this man go on and on and on as 12, 13, 14 year old children. And you know what happens to a tired brain, especially when you're a child? It's so much more malleable. You're just like, I'll do whatever this person wants me to do.
- [32:01]
Host 3
Did you feel that at the time that some of these teachings felt made up growing up?
- [32:07]
Host 1
I did. I had a very simple faith in God and I still do. I believed that there was a God. I believed in Jesus. I believed that Jesus died for me and that I was going to Go to heaven. I believed I was saved, and I didn't really think that it needed to be complicated.
- [32:25]
Lindsay
When Krista was 11 years old, she could see that her mom was suffering.
- [32:30]
Host 1
My mom had been very sick with a lifelong disease.
- [32:38]
Lindsay
She had sarcoidosis. It's a condition that can manifest in many ways, causing debilitating symptoms in different organs of the body.
- [32:46]
Host 1
With my mom, it was her lungs. She had a very, very, very hard time breathing.
- [32:53]
Lindsay
There were times her mom couldn't even walk from one side of her room to the other without stopping to catch her breath. It was a difficult time for everyone. But Krista found comfort in her favorite activity, her way of expanding her world beyond River Road.
- [33:08]
Host 1
I loved to read. Like that was my whole world was stories and making up stories and reading stories. I was obsessed with little Women, Little House on the Prairie, anything by Charles Dickens. Oh, my goodness, the Prince and the Pauper. I was a serious bookworm.
- [33:33]
Lindsay
Chris's mom was getting desperate with her illness. She wanted to know how to heal herself. So she started meeting one on one with Victor.
- [33:44]
Host 1
Victor believed that it was spiritual, that it was not a physical illness. She was being manipulated into believing that she was doing something that was making her sick and that she needed to take action to make herself not sick. But nobody could tell her what it was, so she was just doing whatever she could.
- [34:08]
Lindsay
So one day, she took action.
- [34:11]
Host 1
It was an unseasonably warm January day, sunny. And my mom sat down on my bed with these books.
- [34:18]
Lindsay
They were some of Krista's favorites, including her Little House in the Prairie books.
- [34:22]
Host 1
She said, krista, I think that your time with the Little House and the Prairie books is over.
- [34:34]
Lindsay
There was an opinion in the church that Little House on the Prairie was attached to some kind of devil spirit, and it was essentially on a list of banned books.
- [34:45]
Host 1
And I was like, what? No. And she's like, we need to get rid of these. And I remember she walked down the hallway, and we had a wood stove in our living room. And I was, like following her, and I was, like, trying to grab these books out of her hand because I didn't want her to get rid of them. I didn't want her to burn them. And I was like, please, no. Please no. Please no. And she's like, yes, this is what we're going to do. And she set the books down on top of the wood stove in a stack. She was opening the stove, and I grabbed the books off the stove, and I burned the palms of my hands. Then she took them out of my hands. And then she threw them all in the wood stove. She closed the door and that was that. Couldn't retrieve them. They were on fire. I was crying, I was screaming. I was so upset because my books were my escape. That was where I went. My books were kind of my security blanket. And just knowing that I didn't have that anymore was scary in a way, and devastating. For her to just not even prepare me, just up and rip those out of my hands and burn them. She was kind of almost emotionless, like, this is what needed to happen. Like this is what we had to do. I cried like a child because I was a child. It was an incredibly, incredibly traumatic moment in my childhood. I was devastated.
- [36:39]
Lindsay
Through all of this. Her mom seemed stiff in response.
- [36:43]
Host 1
I don't know why she chose that day. I don't know why, what brought that upon her, that particular moment. But she was like, this has to happen right now. And nothing I said was going to sway her.
- [36:59]
Lindsay
Krista remembers a couple of hours later, her dad called her over. He said her mom could breathe again. Victor had told Krista's mom that he would run with her down a long driveway and back if she got better. So they did. Chris's mom went from barely being able to walk across a room to running side by side down a long lane with the leader she admired so much, Wind in her hair and filling her lungs. She felt cured. After her health improved, Chris's mom told Victor about the books. And Victor said it was the books that had made her sick. No one seemed to consider that. Sarcoidosis is known for symptoms that often come and go. But Victor was sure it was the books. He told her, it's the darkness. This wasn't the end of Victor and the books. There was a big meeting of the entire church one night. Everyone from every property came. They met in the chapel at the Shepherd's camp. A large spare room with low ceilings, everything. White chairs lined up in rows. Christa's mom stood at the front on a small stage. She was going to share her story, how she was miraculously cured after ridding herself of the darkness. The books. Victor sat in the back of the church.
- [38:27]
Host 1
He had like, a little room in the back that he would normally sit in at area meetings until it was his time to, like, maybe come up and preach. But during more informal meetings like this, he would oftentimes he would come up and give his two cents in the middle of this other person sharing and interjecting. So my mom gets to the point of the story where she's talking about these books and Victor comes down the middle aisle way and starts talking about how they were causing my mom to be sick. That's what was causing this ailment. Then I felt really guilty obviously because they were my books and I was so against getting rid of them. And so I, you know, I carried a lot of guilt for a long time as a, you know, little girl thinking that I had made my mom sick. And I can mean as an 11 year old girl, can you even imagine like how badly that made me want to crawl under my chair?
- [39:47]
Narrator
A foot washed up, a shoe with.
- [39:49]
Host 1
Some bones in it.
- [39:50]
Host 4
They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.
- [39:57]
Host 3
These are the coldest of cold cases. But everything is about to change.
- [40:03]
Host 2
Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime.
- [40:09]
Host 3
A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA using new scientific tools. They're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.
- [40:19]
Host 4
He never thought he was going to get caught and I just looked at my computer screen.
- [40:23]
Host 1
I was just like, ah, gotcha.
- [40:26]
Host 3
On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at othram, the Houston lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [40:47]
Danielle Roubais
Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.
- [40:55]
Host 1
I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.
- [41:00]
Danielle Roubais
I'm Danielle Roubais and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from hello sunshine and I Heart podcasts. Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers and more to explore the stories that shape us on the page and off. I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick deep diving book talk theories and obsessed obsessing over book to screen casts for years. And now I get to talk to the people making the magic. So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character or cried at the last chapter or passed a book to a friend saying you have to read this, this podcast is for you. Listen to bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get Your podcasts.
- [41:49]
Lindsay
For my Heart podcasts and Rococo Punch. This is the Turning River Road.
- [41:54]
Host 2
I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant.
- [42:06]
Lindsay
In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse.
- [42:14]
Host 2
Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man and thinking to the point that if I died for him, that would be the greatest honor?
- [42:24]
Lindsay
But in 2014, the youngest of the girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt.
- [42:31]
Host 2
For all those years, you know, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey.
- [42:40]
Lindsay
Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts from.
- [42:47]
Narrator
Iheart Podcasts. Before social media, before the Internet, before cable news, there was Alan Berg.
- [42:54]
Host 4
You dig what I do. You have a need. Unfortunately, you have no sense of humor. That's why you can't ever enjoy this show, and that's why you're a loser. He was the first and the original shot. Shock, shock.
- [43:05]
Host 3
That scratchy, irreverent kind of way of talking to people.
- [43:08]
Host 4
You're as dumb as the rest. That's. I can't take anyone. I don't agree with you all the time. I don't want you to. I. I hope that you pick me apart.
- [43:15]
Narrator
His voice changed media. His death shocked the nation.
- [43:18]
Host 3
And it makes me so angry that he got himself killed because he had a big mouth.
- [43:23]
Host 4
KOA morning talk show host Alan Berg reportedly was shot and killed tonight in downtown Denver. He pointed to the Denver phone book and said, well, There are probably 2 million suspects. This guy aggravated everybody.
- [43:35]
Narrator
From iheart podcasts, this is Live Wire, the loud life and shocking murder of Alan Berg. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [43:48]
Host 1
Some women didn't even. They just would talk about him. They would just refer to him as him. They wouldn't even use his name. Like, I'm gonna go see him now, or, I got this from him, or, we need to do this for him. Or, you know, it's just like he has a name. It's like he has a name. His name is Victor. Him who?
- [44:06]
Host 3
It's almost like a capital H. Him.
- [44:09]
Host 1
Exactly.
- [44:10]
Host 3
Almost like God.
- [44:12]
Host 1
Oh, absolutely.
- [44:15]
Host 3
I just wonder, like, you can't read people's minds, but I wonder to what degree some women were feigning that obsession, like pretending to be obsessed because they felt like they had to. I'm just curious what you think.
- [44:30]
Host 1
Well, I sure was.
- [44:33]
Host 3
You feigned obsession with Victor as well.
- [44:36]
Host 1
Oh, absolutely. I believed he was special. I showed him respect, I showed him love. If he was sitting next to me, I'd reach out and hold his hand.
- [44:45]
Host 3
Where did you learn that in certain situations you should go out and reach and hold his hand? Was that something he explicitly encouraged? Did he implicitly encourage it? Did he. You just do it because other people did it? Like, I'm curious where that culture came from.
- [45:02]
Host 1
Where the culture came from. I can pinpoint it. We'd have these yearly like camping trip celebrations at the shepherd's camp called Tabernacles.
- [45:23]
Host 3
Everyone loved the Feast of Tabernacles. It was a week long celebration where they would slaughter a lamb and have a huge feast inspired by scripture. Every fall, all the members of River Road would come from their various properties and set up tents at the shepherd's camp. All the believers, as they call themselves, spent a week together celebrating with food and music and tea, teachings and games. Sometimes the young girls in the church moved properties in the weeks leading up to the feast to help prepare.
- [45:56]
Host 1
And each one had a theme. And 1998, the theme was the Song of Songs.
- [46:01]
Host 3
The Song of Songs is also known as the Song of Solomon. It's a book in the Bible that's kind of unusual because it's a collection of love poems, erotic love poems between a man and a woman about a.
- [46:13]
Host 1
Woman and her love for King Solomon.
- [46:16]
Host 3
Christians often see it as an allegory for Jesus. In the church, God is the man, the church is the woman. Of course, the man in this relationship is the God figure. This year, all Victor could talk about was this book in the Bible, the Song of Songs.
- [46:34]
Host 1
The women took it and they ran with it. The women just glommed onto that and they're like, Victor is our King Solomon. He's our Jesus Christ in the flesh. We are supposed to have these feelings for him. First off, I was a tiny little child and being expected to run up and hug a middle aged man was just a lot to expect of me and show him any type of like, you know, romantic feelings I could muster up as a 7, 8 year old. But maybe it's not wrong. Maybe this is how we're supposed to treat the man of God. And it was so jarring to me, like, this is weird. And it never got less weird.
- [47:34]
Lindsay
Wow.
- [47:35]
Host 1
To me.
- [47:38]
Host 3
And in 1999, when summer began, Victor would stoke that affection from his followers to a new level. He would call it The Summer of Love. Lindsay was newer to this world than Krista. She was 12. She'd been pulled out of gymnastics, and now she'd been in Minnesota for a few months. At this point, followers had been whipped into a frenzy, ready to do anything to show their love and devotion to Victor.
- [48:07]
Host 2
He would spend a lot of time with the married women and the young girls.
- [48:13]
Host 3
Victor would sometimes take a shepherd's staff and join women or children in the pastures as they watched sheep. It brought that imagery of Jesus the shepherd. The Lord is my shepherd.
- [48:29]
Host 2
You would hear things like whispers from other locations that some of the girls were, like, serenading him with songs outside his RV window. And everyone was just, I guess, showering him with love. And he wanted their respect and honor.
- [48:50]
Host 3
Even though everyone talked about love, the love of God, of Victor. Lindsay also felt on edge a lot of the time, especially when she was at the main shepherd's camp.
- [49:05]
Host 2
It did always feel like there were eyes everywhere, like somebody was watching, you know, to. To see what I was doing. Nothing would get past anyone. Victor always talked about the rod of correction. As a shepherd, they have their staff, and they also have the rod when the sheep need to be corrected. I remember seeing Victor spit on people during meals. I remember, like, he threw a chair across the room. There were definitely things that happened that. And being so young, I don't even think I thought of it as abuse. Like, I wouldn't have used that word. You know, to me, it was just things that were scary that made me afraid of him. It could make you feel like the worst person in the entire world.
- [50:00]
Host 3
That air of punishment was all around. But other times, Victor might look you in the eye and compliment you in a way that made you feel amazing.
- [50:09]
Host 2
Maybe he would look at you, or maybe he would, like, put his hand on your head. He played the harmonica, so sometimes he would jam out to music and play his harmonica with some of the other guys. He would also come play with the kids. Like, he would come play soccer with us. He'd go skating. He was a really good skater. He used to play hockey, so he would get in those games with us. He could just make you feel special with a smile, with a wink, with, you know, a pat on the head or shoulder.
- [50:45]
Host 3
Lindsay's family lived at the shepherd's camp for a while and then were moved out to one of the nearby satellite properties called Three Taverns, where families lived in a group of trailers. One day, a tent was set up for Victor at the property, and he invited a bunch of other girls from different Locations to come over.
- [51:03]
Host 2
And we all ended up staying in the tent with him that night. So it was like packed, you know, there was one blow up bed and then I think the rest of us were just on the floor.
- [51:12]
Host 3
Some of the girls were Lindsay's age and some were older teenagers and young women, girls. Lindsay looked up to the oldest, who was about 20, asked them all a.
- [51:22]
Host 2
Who wants to sleep next to Victor? And all the girls were raising their hands so excited. And I did not. Like, I was like, no, like I do not want to. And I'd wonder, like, why, like, why was it a big deal? Why did everyone want to sleep next to him? Like they were all going crazy of who wanted to sleep next to him.
- [51:40]
Host 3
But apparently something about Lindsay's response stood out.
- [51:44]
Host 2
And she picked me. She's like, oh, I picked you because you're the only one that doesn't want to. I don't think anyone said it, but you know, you can just tell people are jealous or like kind of irritated. A couple of them were that with me.
- [52:00]
Host 3
Lindsay somehow knew that regardless of how she felt or how anyone else in the tent felt, she had to do as she was told. So she went over to where Victor was.
- [52:13]
Host 2
And I remember laying there like, as far as I could on that air mattress. So stiff, like as stiff as a board, like a pencil. Like, my hands were so straight, like right next to my legs. I just remember, like being on the edge. I was so uncomfortable. And I think I just felt, I guess just so nervous about sleeping next to a grown married man and end it being Victor, like this guy who was like, basically, you know, as he calls himself, like, married to the church, like Christ in the flesh, like, who carries all this authority and yeah, very nervous and scared and uncomfortable that whole night.
- [53:14]
Host 3
After that, Lindsay had a quiet winter with her family.
- [53:17]
Host 2
There's a lot of snow and we had animals. So we were up way early in the morning chipping away at those black rubber barrels cut in half. We'd use them to put the water in for our animals, so pounding away to get the ice mixed up so that they could drink water.
- [53:37]
Host 3
Then they'd have breakfast, homeschooling and time to play and work with the animals. And then early on that year, Victor was staying near their house again in his rv.
- [53:48]
Host 2
I don't even remember if I was sent there, if he called me or maybe I had to bring something to him. And I remember walking in and I couldn't see him.
- [54:03]
Host 3
He was in the private bedroom at the back of the rv.
- [54:06]
Host 2
He Told me to come in the back. And he was standing there without any clothes on. And I had just turned. Just turned 13, still looking very much like a little kid. And he was standing there naked. And I remember he, like, pulled me close to him and had me touch his penis. And I don't know, sometimes I'm like, why didn't you. I think I was just frozen. I was so frozen, I didn't know what to do. I don't think I said anything. I was, I think, in shock. You know, when you maybe, like, tense up and you hold your breath and you are scared to move a muscle and, you know, your heart starts racing really fast. I didn't know what to do, what to think. I remember just being so, like, stiff, not wanting to move, not wanting to say anything. I. I definitely wasn't having those feelings of love towards him at the time. It was more of, like, how quickly can these minutes go by? Like, when can I get out of here? And I guess you could tell, like, I was so nervous and unsettled. Like, he. Then we just got up and he got dressed. And I remember him telling me not to tell my parents, you know, anything that had happened and nobody would understand. So I think I tried maybe to rationalize it in my head that, like, I didn't need to talk to anyone about it or if I did, something really bad would happen because, you know, if people went against him, bad things happened. I tried not to think about it or dwell on it too much because I didn't really know what to make of it. So I just shoved it way back there.
- [56:26]
Host 3
Months at the compound flew by. Winter melted into spring into summer, as Victor instructed. Lindsay didn't tell anyone what happened in his camper. She tried to forget what happened, and somehow it almost felt like it didn't. There's a small moment Lindsay later shared with Victor and her young sister Lacey. Lindsay would have completely forgotten it if she hadn't written it down. As she read from her journal, the memory came to life. On a sunny day, she and her sister took some sheep out to pasture, letting them out beyond the safety of their fences with only border collies keeping the sheep at bay.
- [57:17]
Host 2
So we would just let them eat freely and just take them through the fields.
- [57:26]
Host 3
At one point, Victor lay down in the grass between Lindsay and Lacey. He told them how years ago, in that very spot, he had talked to God. He lay there weeping and crying out to God. He said he felt his body melting into the earth, as if he were letting go of his earthly life. Victor said in that moment of weakness, he felt God had lifted him up and set him on a mission.
- [58:01]
Host 2
Victor said he audibly heard God's voice and he was ordained by God. He was our shepherd.
- [58:08]
Host 3
Victor said he had prayed for Lindsay and her sister before he even knew them. And now in this moment with Lindsay and Lacey, he said he had a realization.
- [58:19]
Host 2
As he looked at us, he realized that we were the fruit that God had given him from his trip.
- [58:25]
Host 3
He sat up, looked right at Lindsay.
- [58:27]
Host 2
And said, you are the joy of my tears.
- [58:51]
Lindsay
Next time on the Turning.
- [58:53]
Host 2
Wait, what did I agree to? Because I don't ever remember making a commitment like this. But I also know that I felt too maybe scared to speak up and question it or ask anyone about was almost felt like it was too late. I felt trapped.
- [59:26]
Lindsay
The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and I Heart Podcasts. It's written and produced by Aylin Lance Lesser and me. Our story editor is Emily Forman. Mixing and sound design by James Trout Girl Grace Doe is our production assistant. Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. Our executive producers are John Peratti and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch and Katrina Norvell and nikki etor@iheart podcasts. You can follow us on Instagram Rococo Punch and you can reach out via email theturningcocopunch.com I'm Erica Lance. Thanks for listening.
- [60:24]
Host 2
Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime.
- [60:30]
Host 3
On the new podcast America's Claim Crime Lab. Every case has a story to tell and the DNA holds the truth.
- [60:37]
Host 4
He never thought he was going to get caught and I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha.
- [60:43]
Host 1
This technology's already solving so many cases.
- [60:47]
Host 3
Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [60:54]
Kelly Harnett
The Girlfriends is back with a new season, and this time I'm telling you the story of Kelly Harnett. Kelly spent over a decade in prison for a murder she says she didn't commit. As she fought for her freedom, she taught herself the law.
- [61:07]
Host 1
He goes, oh, God. Harnett Jailhouse lawyer.
- [61:10]
Kelly Harnett
And became a beacon of hope for the women locked up alongside her.
- [61:14]
Host 2
You're supposed to have your faith in.
- [61:15]
Host 1
God, but I had nothing but faith in her.
- [61:17]
Host 3
I think I was put here to save souls by getting people out of prison.
- [61:22]
Kelly Harnett
The Girlfriends Jailhouse Lawyer listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [61:31]
Uncle Chris
My Uncle Chris was a real character, a garbage truck driver from South Carolina who is now buried in Panama City alongside the founding families of Panama. He also happens to be responsible for the craziest night of my life. Wild stories about adventure, romance, crime, history and war intertwine as I share the tall tale and hard truths that have helped me understand Uncle Chris. Listen now to Uncle Chris on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [62:04]
Host 2
I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that.
- [62:11]
Lindsay
Meant for my heart. Podcasts and Rococo Punch this is the Turning River Road. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. But in 2014, the youngest escaped. Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [62:34]
Host 1
This is an iHeart podcast.