Danny Gold (3:51)

Look at this. Sean in New York in the Spotify Studios for the first time. First off, Kansas King Club. I don't even know what that entails.

Sean Williams (3:59)

Sounds good, though, if you've been to.

Danny Gold (4:01)

One or if they exist. Second off. Yes. Sean's first time ever here in Spotify Studios recording with us. It is bright, though, right? Like, I'm warranted in wearing the sunglasses.

Sean Williams (4:10)

Yeah, yeah, Sometimes.

Danny Gold (4:12)

Sometimes I put them on right now.

Sean Williams (4:13)

Yeah, go. Can't do it.

Danny Gold (4:15)

It's like there are lights here, guys. You can't. It's bright in this studio. I'll take them off. Don't worry. This is a monumental occasion having Sean here. I thought there would be some sort of celebration or moment in Spotify when we walked in, but it turns out only, like, two or three people who work here actually know or care who we are. So we did get a bunch of free snacks, though, so that's. That's always great. Um, as for our weekend here, I still feel deep amounts of shame. It's been like four or five days of. Of what transpired between me and Sean and audio producer Dale on our night out in Brooklyn. Sean may have gotten thrown out of somewhere that you really should not get thrown out of. Uh, we might have made some new friends in the parking lot that we probably shouldn't have. That told us a lot about the crimes they've committed in. In Canada.

Sean Williams (5:04)

Yeah.

Danny Gold (5:04)

Uh, so don't do that to strangers if you're allegedly on the run. I don't even know, uh, if I could go back in time, though. I would probably not not have gone through with that night or would have liked to have woken up somewhere where there was, like, a puppy or something else to make me feel better, but none of that came true. Anyway, yeah, glad to. Glad to have you here, but I'm gonna take these off.

Sean Williams (5:27)

It could have that night could have ended way earlier, but anyway, it didn't. And we are cool grownups with great lives. Moving on. In addition to these shows, if you want to get bonus interviews, episodes, ad re shows, show notes, reading lists, head over to patreon.com the Underworld podcast, where you can get all that for just a few bucks a month. And judging by the price of everything in the States, isn't it expensive in New York? Oh, what an original thought. Yeah, it's pretty good value to get on our Patreon. And no, I won't leave a Google Review for your $7 flat white Mr. Brooklyn Cafe man. And you guys can still buy teas, hoodies, mugs at our website, underworldpod.com and send us emails. We've had tons of good ones lately. Theunderworldpodcastmail.com there's way worse stuff to spend your money on, right, Danny? Like, actually, yeah, just a few miles from the studio. There's quite a lot more.

Danny Gold (6:19)

No more. Dude, I can't. I can't. I can't do this at my age anymore. I gotta stop.

Sean Williams (6:23)

No, we should. Yeah, we should probably stop talking about that for the rest of our lives.

Danny Gold (6:28)

Yeah, yeah.

Sean Williams (6:28)

Anyway. Honduras. A few weeks ago, we did a show about the rise and fall of Juan Mata Ballesteros, a pickpocket who became an emerald smuggler, then got involved in cocaine. Connected Colombian coca producers with distributors in Mexico and the US and he did a fair bit of international drug trafficking himself. We also got into the history of Honduras, how its elites leveraged their connections to colonial administrators and later foreign fruit magnates to reap all of the country's wealth and dominate its politics, which in turn made them incredibly easy to corrupt and either turn a blind eye to or get involved in the cocaine trade. So if you haven't already listened to that show, might give you a good bit of background knowledge for this one, but you can also enjoy this one alone. But that episode ended, as I mentioned, in the cold opening, with the 1990 conviction of Mata for trafficking and other charges and the hopes by many that it would bring an end to Honduras position as one of Latin America's premier narco stays.

Danny Gold (7:27)

Turns out, not a good hope to have. Wish I could have gone back in time and bet on that. If, like Kalshi or Poly Market exist, which Kalsh, your polymarket, you should be sponsoring us. Like we are your geopolitical gambling guys right here. Make it, make it happen.

Sean Williams (7:40)

Even given the show we're going to record after this.

Danny Gold (7:43)

Yeah, yeah.

Sean Williams (7:45)

Anyway, for Pour A Lot of cold water on the hope and the, the aspirations of law enforcement and some people in Honduras. Yeah, that hope that things would end with the, with the narco state stuff. It ends, it does end.

Danny Gold (8:01)

The hope ends.

Sean Williams (8:02)

The hope ends the hope.

Danny Gold (8:03)

Not the cocaine trafficking.

Sean Williams (8:04)

Not the cocaine trafficking that continues. It's the hope that kills you and it's the hope. It's the knowing that the hope will kill you that kills you. In the words of Jackson Lamb Anyway, here's the book Bribes, Bullets and Intimidation which I used a lot for the matter episode. It goes quote, all who harbored hopes that the removal of Juan Ramon Matabelesteros would substantially curb Honduran drug trafficking were soon disappointed. In fact, as the cocaine trade took hold, Mata had often been traveling abroad. Many traffickers, foreign and domestic, had recognized the significant bridge favoring factors associated with Honduran transshipment. Some, like the Rodriguez Orejuela brothers leading the Cali cartel, had already successfully transshipped large quantities of cocaine through the country and were poised to capitalize further. Thus the cocaine flow continued apace after matters removal. I've always got to be careful when reading these dense academic books and quoting them that it's quite hard to actually say them out loud. And people turn out and people should realize that when they write books anyway. Yeah, that's a bit of a oh for everyone involved in trying to smash the drug trade in Honduras. Now when Juan Matabellesteros is arrested, Honduras doesn't even have a law on the books to go after the proceeds of crime, which is nuts. So despite him sitting in a US prison, he his empire which stretches in some places as far as Spain, it just keeps rolling on. His brother in law is arrested in 1993 for shipping product from Costa Rica into the US and the following year Honduras finally does christen the proceeds of crime law and officials start hunting down Mata's mountain of cash and they seize his properties in Tegucigalpa.

Danny Gold (9:46)

Which is what's interesting is that I think back then like I assume like it really was mountains of like cold hard cash. It wasn't now where like everything's just numbers on a screen. You could have gone out to like his properties. I mean, I don't know how protected they were and just started like digging around the backyard like, like Tony, you know, when they're digging up and probably found mountains and mountains of cash. I mean that's always such a fascinating element of like being a, a drug, like a massive drug dealer back in those days. What actually to do with all of the bills that you had, you know, there's those stories of like rats getting to something, just eating like millions and millions of dollars of bills and Stu. So maybe it's still out there buried somewhere in plastic.

Sean Williams (10:25)

Yeah, yeah, let's go find it. Let's have another fun night out. But in Honduras, it's gonna take incredibly right until 1998 for officials there to pass a law criminalizing the laundering of narcotics related proceeds. However, writes a US Embassy cable quote, weaknesses in the law, including a narrow definition of money laundering, have made it virtually impossible to successfully prosecute the crime. So yeah, plus the change, Honduran leaders have to be dragged kicking and screaming into passing these laws, much less enforcing them, because obviously they're all on the take, just like the country's cops, chronically underpaid and unwilling to investigate increasingly deadly drug cartels. You see all through this period, murder rates are rising through Honduras. And part of that reason is this crumbling state capacity, soaring corruption. Another reason is guns. So a big reason that Juan Mata Ballesteros had managed to become so successful was by getting protection from the us by using his own airline to ship guns, ammo and personnel to Nicaraguan anti communists, the so called Contras during their civil war. That conflict had ended in 1990 as Americans were coming to terms with the Iran Contra affair. But it leaves a shit ton, I mean I think that's the technical term, a shit ton of weapons and ammunition in Honduras ready to be one, used by organized crime and two, to be sold for huge profits to rebels in neighbouring countries, most notably Colombia's leftist fark. So this creates a tinderbox. Of course not only do these huge weapon caches, by some counts there are over half a million guns in a country of 6.5 million people. Not only do they make them richer and more dangerous, but they also tool up the FARC and other rebels in cocaine producing areas of the Andes. Meaning that everybody who's making or selling drugs has more capacity to make and sell drugs, more money to recruit and more weapons to kill anybody in their way.

Danny Gold (12:27)

So another thing that starts happening around this time, I don't know if we're going to get into it because it's sort of related, but not really is that, you know, this is really when mid-90s to late 90s is really when Ms. 13 and 18th street start showing up in Central America. And of course El Salvador really gets all the attention. But it also happened in, in, in Guatemala and Honduras. Right, because you have these gangs that were formed in LA, both Ms. 13 and 18th street that they started getting deported. A lot of them had fled the civil war in El Salvador, I think fled Honduras as well. They end up in LA. They start getting deported in the 90s because of change in the law. A lot of them were felons. They get deported and they just start showing up in these countries in El Salvador and Honduras, where there's just complete vacuum of power, there's really no one to take control, and there's no, like, big gangs like that. Also tons of guns, like we're just discussing right now. And they kind of start forming and they just get sent there, and it's kind of like. Like a free for all. They don't really get powerful, I would say, until, like, the mid-2000s. And that happens because of the situation you're describing. But then they get scary pretty quickly. Like I said, El Salvador gets all the attention. But Honduras and to a lesser degree, Guatemala, they had a big Ms. 13, 18 street thing too.

Sean Williams (13:48)

Yeah. I mean, it's not like the consolidation of gangs in, say, Mexico now is making anything particularly safer, but at this time in Central America, there's like, there's just thousands of people out for themselves, and they're all armed to the teeth. It's. It's pretty wild. But now we're into the early 2000s, right? And this is when everything kind of changes in Honduras narco scene. And that's because it's when a small group of friends and family members from the east of the country, and which is just a stone's throw from Ramon's Mata's farm, in the cold open, they make a pact with one of the most powerful business families in the country, and that will cement a partnership that'll soon be worth almost a billion dollars in Honduras. A billion dollars? That's pretty nuts. Los Cachiros, which is Spanish for the Cachiros, had emerged as cattle ranchers and then rustlers, which is nicking cattle in the 1970s in the Eastern coastal state of colonial. These are poor people. They're selling maybe a dozen cattle at a time. They're sleeping in their cars after doing deals across the country instead of staying in hotels. But they soon realize they're better off not going it alone. They soon begin selling cattle to a meatpacking firm owned by the Rosenthal family, which is a prominent clan based in San Pedro Sula, Honduras, second city. And then they start banking with the Rosenthals. The Rosenthals are a big, big piece in this week's puzzle. So let's get into it a bit Their life in Honduras begins in the 1920s, which is when Yankel Rosenthal, a Romanian Jew, travels from Eastern Europe to Central America. And then he meets the daughter of a big coffee producing family in Honduras. And he stays. Yankel intends to head on then to the United states, but the 1929 financial crash persuades him to stay put. He settles in the northern city of San Pedro Sula, which is a key logistics hub into the Caribbean, where he partners with Arab and Turkish migrants to build wealth in shipping related to the all powerful banana industry. We did get back to that in the, in the one about Matabeus. Yankel then uses this wealth to send his kids to elite schools, particularly his son Jaime, who gets undergrad and master's degree from MIT in Massachusetts. And in the 60s, this education appears to pay off when Jaime diversifies the Roten Tolls empire grows wildly rich, and in 1974 he founds Banco Continental, which expands by focusing on commercial enterprises, particularly in coffee and agriculture. Jaime is frugal, and he stays late in the office telling friends and employees that, quote, a fortune is made by saving. Well, as Jaime's father could readily tell him, it's also about making the right friends. In 1986, Jaime becomes Honduras vice president. He also has a stab at the presidency unsuccessfully as well at this time, which makes him, of course, one of the most powerful men in the country. He resigns three years later, but he returns to politics in 2002 as a congressman, by which time Honduras narco trade is booming and its key state functions are dominated by elites and oligarchs. Banco Continental and Jaime Rosenthal are the perfect fit for the Kachiros. By glomming onto one of Honduras most powerful men, the Kachiros go from redneck cattle rustlers to rural elites. And they collaborate with Rosenthal to win state contracts to build roads, homes and other big ticket jobs, not to mention close attires to political elites in San Pedro Sula and Tegucigalpa.

Danny Gold (17:17)

So wait, who are the Kachiros? Like they're a family, a group, a clan, Just a bunch of buds who have a business together.

Sean Williams (17:24)

There's, there's a family at the center of it, the Rivera Marai Dikers. I can't, I'm going to struggle to say their name. And then there's a few smattering of their family members and then there's a few buddies. So just like a family, a few friends that started out with cattle in this, like, really rural part of the east of the country. And they soon realize when they're Going over to, like, San Pedro Sula. Oh. We can kind of like glom onto these elites, see what we can get out of them. And then they kind of start working together in finance and stuff like that.

Danny Gold (17:53)

So they're like a small sort of, like, business group based on a family that, like, does this, like, cattle ranching or whatever.

Sean Williams (17:59)

Yeah.

Danny Gold (18:00)

And they link up with this banking family to, like, get more funding for their businesses, whatever it is. To form a partnership.

Sean Williams (18:06)

Yeah, exactly. And, like, there's a. There's a good bit in a. In a piece that I read that describes, like I said before, how when some of these guys were going out to the big city to sell their cows, they're, like, literally sleeping in their flatbeds. They're not even, like, in hotels because they don't have the money. They're just like dirt poor roughneck guys from the jungle. But they don't stay that way for long. And it's kind of like a. It's a symbiotic relationship. So around this time, so the early 2000s, the Kachiros also begin to befriend folks in the country's underworld, because why not? Especially when you own massive tracts of land that no one is keeping an eye on. Most notably the brothers in charge of the Kachiros. Here we go. Javier and Devis Rivera. Maraidaga. Maraidaga.

Danny Gold (18:52)

That's a good effort.

Sean Williams (18:53)

Yep. Yeah, we'll get by with that. Get close to a guy named El Coque. And El Coque is Spanish for, can you guess, Danny?

Danny Gold (19:03)

The coque.

Sean Williams (19:05)

No, it means the coke. Jesus Christ. Anyway, El Coque is similar to the Cachiros. He's from the east like them, and he straddles the legitimate and illegitimate worlds. He's got money in banking, and he also has a congressman on his side, too. Only in his case, it's by dating the guy's daughter.

Danny Gold (19:24)

Yeah, I mean, for our younger listeners, this is a very important lesson to learn about the right way to do things. The way that. That. That Jaime did things right. Or. Or his father did things, which is like getting a really good education, working hard, staying late in the office, like, being frugal, saving your money. That's actually not the right way to succeed and do things in life. The right way to do it is to start dating powerful guys, daughters.

Sean Williams (19:52)

True.

Danny Gold (19:52)

Because that really just. You skip a lot of the other stuff and just get right. Right. Elevated to the top.

Sean Williams (19:58)

True. But you've always then gotta like, blow up all those relationships with bad behavior and then fall back on journalism, which is like a booming industry. Did you.

Danny Gold (20:06)

Is there a story? Do you date a powerful guy's daughter?

Sean Williams (20:08)

I just lost my mind.

Danny Gold (20:10)

Well, the Shawn lore. Like even I am still learning things about the life of Sean Williams. I might have. I remember someone from back in the day, but I don't remember exactly which. Which. Which prince?

Sean Williams (20:22)

Hell no. No, no. I think I'm still getting over the weekend anyway. Yes, dating powerful men's daughters.

Danny Gold (20:30)

What's up, guys? I want to tell you about something I've been using that is just like changing the game, blowing my mind. It's called Wave Co and the. It's an app, it's changed my life and the way that we make the show. It is an AI note taking app for interviews, podcasts, meetings, phone calls, any audio. I mean, you guys know Underworld. We do a ton of research and interviews and all that. Keeping track of everything, getting everything together is a nightmare. It's so much information. Wave solves all of that. It records, it transcribes, and it summarizes the conversations automatically in like a super useful way. We use it for our research and interviews, but honestly, it's just as useful if you're like a lawyer, a student, or anyone who has to capture important details, I think. Sean, did you use it for like one of your recent long form articles?

Sean Williams (21:19)

Oh, yeah, I'm writing a story today, in the next couple days deadline and it has 25 interviews, something like that, and transcribing them all myself would be not only horrific, but take around a month. So yeah, using AI to transcribe it is saving my life.

Danny Gold (21:37)

Yeah, I mean it is. It rules like Wave Co, legit game changer. Probably the most useful thing I've used in terms of AI. It'll save you time, it'll save you effort. You can use it for your own interviews, phone calls, whatever. I mean, if you're doing research, if you're running a business, you honestly can't find something more useful. I mean, if you're a student, use it for class, lectures, panels, anything. You can even ask it questions about the material and it answers and it just summarizes the important stuff so easily. You can try it out for free. It works for most major languages. It's got a 4.9 rating on Apple apps. 10,000 positive reviews, hundreds of millions of minutes analyzed. It's way better than just some recording app. There's some other apps that do this kind of stuff, but this is like the OG most trusted privacy first SOC2 compliance or SOC2 compliance. WAVE CO. Go there, download it now, you get a free trial. See how useful it is. Guys, we've talked to you about this before. Quints. Just amazing, amazing clothing. Like luxurious stuff for really, really affordable prices. And now we've got cold mornings. You've got holiday plans. This is when I want my wardrobe to be, to be simple, but like, look sharp, looks good. You know, me and Sean, we're men of luxury. We're men of taste. We want to look good. I want stuff that I'll actually wear. And for me, that is quince. And the bonus quince pieces make great gifts too, for, for the man or woman in your life. I mean, this season's lineup is simple, but smart and easy. The stuff that I got from like the mongolian cashmere sweater, $50. It feels like luxurious stuff that I should not be able to afford. Wool quotes that are equal part stylish and durable. They've got great denim. I mean, look on the site. It is, it is incredible. Which did you. What did you get from them shirt?

Sean Williams (23:25)

It was really, really nice black shirt, really great fit.

Danny Gold (23:29)

Yeah, it's like Saturday night when we went out. Our audio producer, Dale, who also got like a, like a short button after that.

Sean Williams (23:34)

Yeah, yeah.

Danny Gold (23:34)

I was like, dude, this looks incredible.

Sean Williams (23:36)

It was the first thing you said when we met.

Danny Gold (23:37)

He just also looks cool though, in general. But Quince is gonna help you look great.

Sean Williams (23:41)

Yeah.

Danny Gold (23:42)

Quince also has like, you know, anything for home, bath, kitchen or travel to share or keep. This holiday, it is, it's great stuff. Give and get. Timeless holiday staples. The last that last this season with Quince. Go to quince.com/worldly for free shipping on your order. And 365 Day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com/ Underworld. Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/ Underworld.

Sean Williams (24:09)

El Coca. Yes. El Coque, Honduras. We're doing a podcast, aren't we? He's also in the cocaine trade because at this point everybody is. And he and the Kichiros build a pretty significant partnership quarterbacking flights from South America into Honduras before sending them off to the United States. That is the main thing going on now, the flights. Right. There's also stuff by boat we'll get into in a minute. So you have this connection between two big narcos, El Coque and the Kachiros. The Kachiros are in bed with Jaime Rosenthal. And unlike when Juan Mata Baresteros was in control of Honduras drug scene, now things are Fragmented. There are tensions building between rival groups over land access to politicians. They've kind of like all got their own pet politician. That's how it seems to work at the time. The politicians themselves are scheming and backstabbing more over their own access to the cocaine trade. Mexicans are seizing bigger chunks of the industry from rivals in Cali, which anyone who's watched narcos will know. Well, they're richer and more powerful than ever. And everybody in this picture is armed to the back teeth thanks to the weapons left over from the Nicaraguan civil war. And so you can see how this whole thing is heading down a pretty dangerous path. The Kachiros seem to be the master manipulators throughout all of this. They cement power in their home state of Colon by keeping the chief of police on their payroll. And they expand into San Pedro Sula, thanks not only to their connection to Rosenthal, but. But a top cop in the region named Carlos Alberto Valladares, AKA El Tigre. That's the tiger. Yeah, you got that one. Valladares has risen through the ranks to become chief of police in a number of municipalities surrounding San Pedro Sula. Let's just say, not because he's a gifted investigator, per se. He's a naughty boy with a bad habit. Daddy. A bad habit for drugs.

Danny Gold (26:08)

A bad habit.

Sean Williams (26:09)

Yes, I wondered if you could.

Danny Gold (26:11)

Come on, man.

Sean Williams (26:11)

Yeah, good.

Danny Gold (26:12)

Well played. I mean, I hope so. Our listeners do, because that is just.

Sean Williams (26:15)

Yeah.

Danny Gold (26:15)

Some of the best. Some of the. Is kiwi or is that like he's Aussie? He's Aussie, yeah.

Sean Williams (26:20)

But still, people say. People say it hasn't aged well. And it's. It's. No, it's a little dodgy, but it's great. It's great.

Danny Gold (26:27)

Come on. It's so good.

Sean Williams (26:28)

It's so good.

Danny Gold (26:29)

Yeah.

Sean Williams (26:30)

More to the point, this guy has a bad habit for drug related violence. Danny. He's a. He's a naughty boy with a bad habit for drug related violence. So let's just push that one home one more time. Anyway, he's a nasty piece of work. And the Cachiros use Bayadares El Tigre to terrorize their rivals, using police raids as cover to kill several people at a time. In the most explosive example, Valladares takes part in a nightclub shootout in San Pedro Sula, which results in the deaths of a drug trafficking rival to the Cachiros, plus several members of the guy's security team. In 2004, the cacheros fought out with El Coque. It's unknown exactly why I've read that El Coque killed a member of Javier and Device's family, which, I mean, I guess that would cause a slight spat, but who knows among narcos. But whatever the truth, the Cacheros go firmly on the offensive. Sicario's first hunt El Coque down in San Pedro Sula. They fire 25 bullets into one of his cars and they injure his girlfriend. Remember the girlfriend of the very powerful congressman. El Coque then flees to Cuba and then Costa Rica, where another team of hitmen track him down and fail to kill him for a second time. El Coque then heads to Panama, but he's arrested by Panamanian authorities and sent back to Honduras. And on his fourth day in jail, Sicario's burst into his cell and shoot El Coque four times, killing him.

Danny Gold (28:01)

All right, so let me backtrack. Like backtrack with me for like a, a second here. The Kachiros work with, with Jaime Rosenthal in banking, but they also work with El Coque in cocaine. And they have enforcer named Valadera Altigray Valadez who partners with them as well. So they're just, they're partner with everyone. These guys are just like Matt, even though they're like these, what I assume, like hillbilly types from like the jungle who are like cowboys, they're amazing networkers. And then they have this falling out with El Coque and that's where we are right now.

Sean Williams (28:32)

Yeah, they're like the guys from Mozart. Like, they're just, they're kind of like rednecks who are just master manipulators. So they've got their guy at the top, Rosenthal, who's like dishing out loans and working on sort of like black finance.

Danny Gold (28:43)

The legitimate.

Sean Williams (28:44)

Sort of legitimate, yeah, he's the crossover. And then they're also in bed with old cocky, but they decide, yeah, screw you for whatever reason, and they eventually get him. So they're, they're getting way, way more powerful. Right? And they are cooking. Here's insight Crime, which has written a huge, like massive 20,000 word feature on their rise quote. The Kachiros took control of some of the most important cocaine routes along the isthmus. I hate that word. Colon. Is strategically located along the north eastern coastline. To the east is Gracias. Adios. Thanks to God State. That's a cool name for a state. And to the south, Olancho. These three states have become some of the best landing areas for small aircraft carrying drugs from South America. In part because of the infrastructure left by the agro export economy that once thrived in the area. So you can see they're kind of using the background, using their own nous to get in. There is little state presence and vast stretches of land that are used to create makeshift clandestine airstrips. There are also large tracts of African palm plantations and other agro industrial businesses that can help camouflage the storage and movement of illicit products. In addition, the coastline receives drug by sea, ferried via go fast boats and fishing vessels. It's this vast, expansive land rate. It offers another key benefit for the Kachiros, which is tons of people struggling for work. Fishermen and boat operators can store product, refuel boats, and work as lookouts. The region is also home to a marginalized indigenous population whose homelands stretch between the Honduran and Nicaraguan borders. Meaning they know the terrain of both countries well and they can slip across isolated bits of the border with no problem at all. Meaning that you now have an international cartel with backers in politics and big business, Massive land holdings, connections to narcos in south and North America, and cocaine routes that have been perfected for decades. Continues inside crime. Again, quote, the Kachiras business model worked. They accumulated considerable wealth from their illicit project. Authorities gave wide ranging estimates for how much cocaine moves through the Kachiros area of influence, but they agree that it is significant, or at least was significant at the group's height. At the low end, authorities said the group was moving between 1 and 2 tons per month. At the high end, they put it at between 4 and 5 tons a month. The range of monthly earnings was therefore between 2 and 12.5 million dollars.

Danny Gold (31:20)

Which is high but not like insane.

Sean Williams (31:22)

No, no. I mean, they're not making like the Mexican money.

Danny Gold (31:25)

No, no, no. But to be clear, like, they are just the transshipment point. Right. So I assume is it like Colombians or Venezuelans flying it in and then from there someone else? Like they're just basically holding it or are they responsible for transporting it on into Mexico?

Sean Williams (31:37)

Yeah, both. They would do both. So over time they're like. They're actually the.

Danny Gold (31:41)

Oh, so they were like an actual. They were actually more than. I mean, they were coordinating the shipments from. From South America into Mexico.

Sean Williams (31:50)

Yeah, it's like it's similar not just holding it. It's similar to what based there is was doing. Right. At first he was kind of gopher and then he kind of like consolidated his position. And it's such a wild part of the world, Right. And it needs to go through somewhere. So it's the same. I think the same happens today. Right. No one really trusts a lot of the gangs.

Danny Gold (32:06)

Yeah.

Sean Williams (32:06)

In like Central America to actually do the big work.

Danny Gold (32:09)

Well, that was, the whole thing was right. With MS.13 and all that. People always like, they're involved in the drug, but they really weren't because they were not trusted by the cartels both in, in. In South America, Colombia and Venezuelan and Mexico to like, be responsible enough to hold the cocaine and not, not, not mess it up somehow.

Sean Williams (32:25)

And they weren't like buddies with the politicians as much. Right. Whereas these guys.

Danny Gold (32:29)

No, they eventually became tied in, but they were never huge transshipment point people.

Sean Williams (32:34)

Yeah, yeah. So these guys. Yeah, they are. They're kind of like doubling down on this. This sort of niche that they have, and they're doing really well. So. In 2009, Honduras enters another period of political turmoil when its leftist president, Manuel Zelaya tries to rewrite the constitution to allow presidents the ability to serve more terms in office. Classic move. Something folks in. In this country might get better acquainted with pretty soon.

Danny Gold (32:59)

Relax, Rachel Maddow. We'll be fine.

Sean Williams (33:01)

On the morning of July 28 that year, soldiers storm the presidential residence in Saguci. Galpa disarm security, wake up Zelaya. It's kind of hilarious because I think it's like 9am and put him on a plane to San Jose, which is the capital of Costa Rica. I have been kidnapped, he tells a scrum of reporters. I like to think of him, like, looking like Wee Willy Winky in a little hat and pajamas. At this point, I don't know who that is.

Danny Gold (33:25)

Oh, what is this?

Sean Williams (33:26)

It's like a nursery rhyme in Britain. Yeah, yeah, There you go. Runs through the town in his dressing gown. Yeah. Anyway, that was way too British. He says he had afterwards violently, brutally kidnapped. Yeah, I just want him to be wearing his, like, dozy pajamas there. Later that day, Honduras Supreme Court issues a statement that it sent the military in to get rid of Zelaya, which is the country's first couple since 1978, which we covered in the Juan Mata Ballesteros episode. It then installs Roberto Micheletti as interim president, which is a move condemned by the international community.

Danny Gold (34:02)

Wait, so hold on. As someone who does not know a lot about Honduras politics in general, do you know? No. Is this considered a coup? Like the guy, like in the negative sense? I guess. In the negative sense, like this guy was overstaying his term. Right.

Sean Williams (34:17)

Yeah.

Danny Gold (34:17)

It's so isn't just like. Isn't just this basically asserting it's a Bloodless coup in general. Right. They take him out, no one gets hurt in the whole situation. He gets kidnapped in his little pajamas with that. With a hat. But like, is that really like a coup or is it just like asserting the peaceful transfer, A somewhat peaceful transfer of power? So there's like, why is it looked at so negatively?

Sean Williams (34:37)

I read an annoying amount about why they did it and like what the exact thing that he was trying to do is. And I've kind of condensed it here, but it was a bit more legalese. It's kind of a Rorschach test. Right. If you're like a leftist, you think he's been like completely removed. Violently. If you are on the other side of political spectrum, you think he's trying to snatch power.

Danny Gold (34:58)

What if you're a normal human being?

Sean Williams (35:00)

If you're normal, I mean, it's a coup, but a coup for a reason. Yeah.

Danny Gold (35:05)

And the reason was he was trying to stay in power longer than his term dictated.

Sean Williams (35:08)

Yeah, yeah. It's difficult. It's like there's a whole bunch of political wrangling and I'm sure There is a 10 part podcast on Honda and political history that people can listen to about that. But it's, it's, it's, it's complex but keeping things brief. Right. And this is kind of like a bit of a tell that afterwards, Micheletti installs a quasi martial law. There's loads of protests in the capital city. He shuts down opposition media, which I don't understand why he would do that if it's just like a, you know, removal of power for the right, for the right ideas. And he sends the army onto the streets. Celaya. Then this is great, he sneaks back into the country via a mountain pass. I mean, this is a guy that wears like a massive cowboy hat. Like he's, you know, that kind of leftist like leader in Latin America. He sneaks back into the country via a mountain pass and he holds himself up in the Brazilian embassy in Tegucigalpa and he then tries from there to negotiate a return to power. And then Micheletti actually does declare martial law. I think it's like a state of exception or emergency, like similar to what Bukele has announced. And that November there's an election after which a conservative named Porfirio Lobo wins, who just so happens to be that dad of El Coque's girlfriend that we mentioned earlier.

Danny Gold (36:28)

Good plotting.

Sean Williams (36:29)

Yeah. For some this is all seen as a rejection of Zelaya, who's left leaning enough to be good Pals with Venezuela's Hugo Chavez. But the vote in November also has, has like a 50% extension rate which ain't great. And other people see the whole thing as a return to 1978, which was when elites has pretty, had pretty nakedly removed a leftist leader with the help of the military.

Danny Gold (36:52)

Okay, but was, was his term actually up?

Sean Williams (36:55)

Yeah.

Danny Gold (36:56)

Okay, so then he leaves and then he comes back and he tries to overthrow the government when his term's up and then like, I mean, like.

Sean Williams (37:04)

Yeah, I know, I know, I know. It's like, it's, it's, Yeah, I don't know, it's Chinatown. I don't like whoever you believe, whatever side of the political divide you're on, because we don't discriminate here. The 2009 coup has its biggest effect on Honduras's narco industry. So for starters, the affair prompts the White House to freeze $33 million in economic and military aid, which is a lot despite the money that's going through in drug money. And plus Americans stop working alongside Honduran counter narcotics agents on intercepting boats or training Honduras piss poor air force. And thirdly, the coup and its aftermath. They force Honduras cops and military to station the majority of their officers in Tegucigalpa. So they all congregate in the center because there's so much protest. And the result of all of this is that there's basically just an open goal for the country's drug traffickers and their empires soar. And I mean Soar literally. In 2008, US authorities working alongside Honduran counterparts had noticed 31 suspect flights landing in Honduras from South America. I guess that's the ones they're, they're catching. Anyway, by 2009 there are 54, and by 2010, post coup, 75 planes are touching down on Honduran airstrips, refueling and either getting sent back out to neighboring countries still laden with coke, or having the product ripped and thrown onto trucks or boats. A single engine plane can carry 500 kilos of cocaine at a time, which is something in the region of 20 million street value back then. And a twin engine plane can carry between 800 kilos and a ton, which is worth, yeah, it's double that, isn't it? Journalists can do maths sometimes. No, that's a lie. We can't at this time. There is no shortage of narco rocking up in Honduras. Some are from Mexico, others are from Colombia or Venezuela. There's actually a really interesting story about this like club together. Colombian Venezuelan crew That kind of pop in and then quickly sort of evaporate somehow in a couple of years. We could do that in another show, I'm sure. But at the time of the 2009 coup, the Kachiros were among the biggest, if not the biggest, already. They're not only running flights, but building entire new airstrips, complete with lighting and other facilities like proper, actual airports. And as their profits ramp up, they get into more legit businesses, especially alongside Jaime Rosenthal and his bancor Continental. The couture are still selling their cattle to the Rosenthal meatpacking firm. They're using Rosenthal logistics firms to sell their African palm. They secure a bunch of loans from Rosenthal's Banco Continental, and they're even joint partners on a zoo. Right. Which is pretty crazy.

Danny Gold (39:52)

They bought a zoo.

Sean Williams (39:53)

They bought a zoo. They bought a zoo. They even go in on the Colon soccer team, which is real Sociedad de Tocoa, in a proud tradition of Latin American drug traffickers using the sport to launder cash going back decades. I think I mentioned that there was one about Andres Escobar being killed in Colombia. Escobar bought his own team, right?

Danny Gold (40:15)

Yeah.

Sean Williams (40:15)

And there's a couple of teams in Mexico. I'm sure there's like, a thousand teams in Mexico that cartel ownership. Did that guy, the guy who went undercover as a footballer, the Uruguayan guy, did he buy a football team or did he just play for football team?

Danny Gold (40:28)

I think he bought a team, too.

Sean Williams (40:29)

Yeah.

Danny Gold (40:29)

And then put himself on the team.

Sean Williams (40:31)

Cool.

Danny Gold (40:32)

Which is what you should do.

Sean Williams (40:33)

Yes.

Danny Gold (40:33)

If you're a jug trap like that, I respect.

Sean Williams (40:35)

Yeah, that is cool. Maybe that's how I buy a professional team.

Danny Gold (40:38)

Buy a professional team and put yourself on the team.

Sean Williams (40:40)

Yeah. Good advice.

Danny Gold (40:41)

I think there's. I think there's a story with like. Like Prince or Sheikh or something like that doing that in. In the Middle east and put, like, his son on or.

Sean Williams (40:50)

Oh, yeah, it was terrible. Gaddafi did it. Gaddafi.

Danny Gold (40:55)

I think a more recent. More recent one did it and the son was, like, terrible in every way. I think the Uruguayan guy was actually, like, pretty solid. Yeah.

Sean Williams (41:02)

He played, like, second division.

Danny Gold (41:03)

Yeah. Like, not. Not good enough to, like, actually play, but, like, could, like, somewhat hold his own a little bit.

Sean Williams (41:09)

I think Sadi al Gaddafi played for Perugia, and that was the same time they had this crazy owner and they signed. Oh, they sacked a Korean player after he scored against Italy in the World Cup. And also they signed a woman up front and played her, which is great. It was an interesting time.

Danny Gold (41:27)

Good save.

Sean Williams (41:27)

Yeah. And Russian People, Yeah, I think their sons play for the teams. Anyway, guys, our sponsor asset, which is the wellness company dedicated to the other underworld, which is your butthole or bumhole, just launched a new product line targeting the biggest menace to back doors everywhere, Hemorrhoids.

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Sean Williams (43:05)

Yeah, People always tell me like what was the scariest thing you've done on the front lines of wars or like organized crime reporting? I tell them it's taking control of my.

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Of your, of your, of your whole narrative.

Sean Williams (43:15)

Yeah. Yeah.

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Sean Williams (44:00)

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Sean Williams (44:12)

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Sean Williams (44:32)

Call of Duty Black Ops 7, available now. Rated M for mature. So they even buy an eco park at this time. The Kachiros, right, they've got so many businesses, and it's wrapped up with this bank owned by Rosenthal. Like, they dig mines, they've still got the African palms, They've got firms in transport gas, they're even making clothes. And neither do they let go of their OG cash cow, of course, like I just mentioned, which is literally cash from cows. And by this time, their cattle company is one of the biggest meat suppliers in all of Honduras.

Danny Gold (45:06)

I mean, like I said, my impression of these guys was that they're like these hillbillies, for lack of better, like, you know, from the jungle. So it's super impressive that they're, like, able to pull all of this off and figure it out.

Sean Williams (45:18)

Yeah, they are. Like, they're completely uneducated. Like they come from nowhere.

Danny Gold (45:21)

And also, why not pull like the, you know, the thing in every. Every TV show about organized crime? Like, you got all these legitimate businesses making a lot of money. Like, why not at this point, just, like, go clean?

Sean Williams (45:31)

Yeah, yeah.

Danny Gold (45:33)

I don't get it.

Sean Williams (45:35)

They just like that cash anyway. Yeah. Remember their top cop, the El Tigre Valladares? Well, he is on a rampage for them. So in October 2011, he orchestrates a shootout between a Kachiros and a rival drug faction, which leaves six dead. Soon afterwards, he helps Devis Quechiro kill two rivals by accusing them of murder and then kidnapping them. Which is, I guess, yeah, the usefulness of having a cop on the payroll. Valladares also helps move drugs for the group, either via car or by securing airstrips himself. And police are also involved in an increasing number of targeted killings of farmers or activists by drug traffickers who want their land. And all of this. The political turmoil, the USA withdrawal, the rise of the drug flights, and the co opting of cops into the narco trade means that by 2011, Honduras holds a title that no country envies. It has the highest homicide rate on Earth with 93.2 people killed per 100,000, which. That number is like, almost actually genuinely unbelievable. It's double what the highest rate is today. Can you guess which country currently holds the title?

Danny Gold (46:46)

Jamaica or Brazil or South Africa?

Sean Williams (46:50)

Yeah, Jamaica. Right. Yeah.

Danny Gold (46:53)

Yeah, but that's. People don't have good numbers on, like, I think Venezuela would be up there.

Sean Williams (46:56)

Yeah.

Danny Gold (46:56)

Even though it's got a huge population, but then no one has good numbers.

Sean Williams (46:59)

Yeah, yeah, it's. I mean, this 93.2 number is nuts. Right. It's around 40% more than El Salvador in 2017, which is when Ms. 13 and Barrio Dsiocho, 18th street were at their kind of peaks.

Danny Gold (47:14)

Line, line. Sean Williams over here, getting the facts wrong. No, the peak was in 2015. And I know because I was there making a documentary called Gangs of El Salvador, which you should watch on Vice News. And it was over a hundred in 2015. I think it was like 103 to 106 was the murder rate in El Salvador at that time. Yeah, it was crazy.

Sean Williams (47:34)

Oh, my God.

Danny Gold (47:34)

Because I think it was country of like 5 million, 6 million. So you're talking, like, I don't know, 20 murders a day in a country like that.

Sean Williams (47:41)

Holy.

Danny Gold (47:42)

My math might be off, but, yeah, it was. It was over 100 in 2015. Wild times.

Sean Williams (47:47)

It's always nice to get fact checked in in real time so you don't have to send those emails. Guys, you could just. You could just leave.

Danny Gold (47:53)

Wait, what'd you get wrong? Last episode? Something about the entertainer. Right.

Sean Williams (47:55)

Didn't they say, oh, my God, the song, the Entertainer.

Danny Gold (47:58)

Yeah, we gotta. We gotta call. We gotta. You gotta do your. Your admission of.

Sean Williams (48:02)

Oh, yeah, it's not. It's like the most famous American. American Showtime tune of all ever. Yeah, right. And I gave French people credit for it. Yeah.

Danny Gold (48:10)

I mean, I didn't know.

Sean Williams (48:10)

Which makes me a little bit sick.

Danny Gold (48:11)

So it's kind of. Kind of my fault, too.

Sean Williams (48:13)

Yeah. Yeah, it is your fault.

Danny Gold (48:14)

That's what we do here. We correct ourselves.

Sean Williams (48:16)

That's what we do at this time. So feel free to jump in if this is bullshit, but 4/5 of Honduras, 4/5 of Honduran people, rather, do not believe that the police is capable of fighting the bloodshed, according to this regional survey. And 4/5 of Hondurans are correct, obviously, one fifth of Hondurans are insane, says the country's Secretary of security a couple of years later, quote, we were in a crisis because the institution of the police had a crisis of credibility. The problem was so serious that we even analyzed scenarios to close the police.

Danny Gold (48:51)

Yeah, I mean that, that triangle right there of Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador. I don't think people really understand like how brutal and bloody it was in like the 2010s. Just completely an insane, unprecedented level of like criminal violence that I think even, you know, even today it's hard to even look at other places and compare it. It was just, it was nuts over there.

Sean Williams (49:13)

I can't think how that would ever be recreated as well, given. I mean, they reformed. There could always be terrible things happening. But I think in 2012 they do actually reform the police in Honduras, which is basically chucking out a load of the most sort of venal guys in the force. And they do kind of work with other countries to revamp. But yeah, like writes a UNODC report in 2012, quote, Honduras national murder rate in 2011 is one of the highest recorded in modern times. In 2009, President Zelaya of Honduras was deposed by the military. Local law enforcement fell into disarray. Resources were diverted to maintaining order and United States counter narcotics assistance was the suspended. The result was a kind of cocaine gold rush. Flights from the Venezuelan Colombian border to airstrips in Honduras skyrocketed and a violent struggle began for control of this revivified drug artery. Revivified given new life, apparently. Genuinely new to me. That is shocking academic writing. All of these horrors and the increasing drug flights bring a new round of attention from the US in 2012, the countries passed an extradition treaty for drug trafficking and terror offenses, which just so happens to coincide with the arrest of a major Kachiros member. By 2013, almost 90% of all cocaine smuggling flights from South America are landing in Honduras. And American authorities think that 90% of them are controlled by the Kachiros. That year, Honduran officials working once again with their American counterparts, they begin digging into the Kachiros empire and confiscating property and estimating that the Group is worth $800 million in assets. That's around half the entire value of Honduras booming coffee industry, for example. Authorities also begin to take land, much of it stolen from farmers by force. In May, the Obama administration formally identifies the Kachiros as a drug trafficking organization under the Kingpin Act. And this is when you know you're truly about to get screwed. Six months later, the US treasury said it's going after them too, prohibiting US citizens from any business with them and freezing assets in US jurisdictions. Suddenly, Kachiro owns palm mining, cattle road building and the zoo are sanctioned. And apparently all this comes as a shock. To Jaime Rosenthal, who says that, quote, we had no reason to believe that they were as devious as they turned out to be. Which is actually quite a nice little sorry, not sorry thing. He's not saying he didn't know. These revelations seem to spark Honduran officials into an effort to purge Rosenthal from their elite circles. Perhaps because he's genuinely been working with some of the country's most dangerous criminals for 30 years, or maybe because they're now in full survival mode themselves. They're desperate to cover their asses in 2014. Honduras banking and Insurance Commission fines, Banco Continental, half a million dollars, I mean, whatever. For failing to check their clients backgrounds. And U.S. officials appear to hint they're about to go after the Rosenthals, too. The institutions and the individuals who help or incite criminal organizations share the responsibility for the violence and the destruction that these groups have reaped on the people of Honduras. Says the US Ambassador to Honduras. Those who know they are helping launder money for corrupt people or terrorists should face long and costly legal procedures, sanctions, and sentences. What I am saying is that if you are helping criminals, you are also criminals. President Porfirio Lobo holds his tongue this entire time, which is pretty incriminating. Whether or not he is in bed with the cartels, his administration has overseen the most catastrophic failure to rein them in and one of the highest murder rates since, like, the Babylonian empire. And then in January 2015, Javier Rivera Madraiga, aka Javier Kiichiro, one of the Kiichiro's two leaders alongside his brother Davis, hands himself in to officials at the US Embassy in Tegucigalpa. And Devis follows suit soon after. By January 26, Javier pleads guilty to drug trafficking. And both of them sing like birds about their friends in government, big business. And the police, you assume, desperate for a reduced sentence.

Danny Gold (53:44)

Yeah, it's pretty crazy how common that is, right? The actual leaders of the cartels, the guys behind most of the violence, just turning themselves in so they can snitch on their government. Government or business partners and just get less severe punishments.

Sean Williams (53:57)

Yeah, I'm not sure if it works or not. In this case. We'll find out. And the arrests keep coming. In May 2015, in a sting operation alongside Haitian authorities, the US grabbed Fabio Lobo, the son of Porfirio Lobo, the president, who by now has lost his presidency in an election. And they'll sentence the son to 25 years for conspiring to import cocaine into the US says one of the prosecutors leading his case in New York, quote, by his own admission, Fabio Lobo conspired to import huge quantities of cocaine into the US to assist traffickers and enrich himself. Lobo used his father's position and his own connections to bring drug traffickers together with corrupt police and government officials. Now, I have a theory on this. Like, I think they were trying to get Lobo the elder, and I think they like, deliberately did not get him because they didn't want to destabilize the country too much. But as we'll learn in whatever third episode we do about Honduras, they finally got cheesed off a few years after this as well, quite famously. In October 2015, the US Justice Department officially points its finger at Jaime Rosenthal, his son Yanni and his nephew Yankel as drug traffickers, adding that its Foreign Assets Control office accuses the Banco Continental of being one of Central America's most significant money laundering operations. They arrest Yankel, the nephew, at Miami airport and they send him to NYC to face trial. Yanni Rosenthal, the son, he turns himself in at the end of the month. In 2017, Yankel, who had been Honduras Minister of Investment, which is hilarious, pleads guilty to money laundering for the Kachiros. Yanni goes down with Him. In 2019, Honduran officials seized most of the Rosenthal family's assets, including seven businesses. And that same year, Jaime Rosenthal, the family patriarch, he dies Age 82 in San Pedro Sula, writes Revista Enbio. The news of the Rosenthal's connection to drug trafficking, especially to the family cartel known as Los Cachiros, was no surprise. In Honduras, it was a well known secret that their bank had been moving dirty money for years. Trustworthy testimonies by ordinary people abound about the discovery of bulging amounts of income with no record of the issuing entity when they would update their bank of Continental account. That is nuts, right? That's really crazy. We learned this is them speaking of one woman who discovered a deposit of 200,000 lempiras in her bank booklet and immediately went to the manager of that branch to return the money. Don't worry, lady, the manager assured her. You didn't have that money before and now you do. Don't worry about where it came from. Just worry about using it for your own good. Things like this tended to happen in places where the drugs barons reigned. It was one of the ways they maintained the people's support.

Danny Gold (56:53)

That's patreon.com the Underworld podcast. We also have Zelle Cash app. Whatever you need, just, you know, email us.

Sean Williams (57:02)

Yeah, do that, do that. It's a great. It's a great idea. And this article goes on. Quote, after amassing a fortune through myriad businesses. Hate the word myriad. During the second half of last century, the Rosenthal family, caught up in the dynamism surrounding the state's deteriorated institutional framework and. And the excessive greed for money permeating all areas of the economy into which they diversified their fortune, got in bed with the drug traffickers. In this century, it was that decision that led to the collapse of their fortune. So Porfirio Lobo, the ex president, somehow manages to stay out of prison. Like I said, I think it was a deliberate move. In October 2019, however, his wife, Rosa Elena, is arrested alongside her private secretary for a $4 million fraud. Everyone in this guy's life is corrupt except for him, apparently. He's completely clean. Juan Carlos Valaderes, AKA El Tigre, the Cachero's man inside the police. He'll evade justice for several years longer. But in 2022, he is also extradited to the U.S. and in August 2024, he's sentenced to 19 years in prison, which actually seems like a pretty light term given that he's actually been found guilty at this point for taking part in actual murders. Says a retired Honduran police commissioner. Quote, we had a government that was in criminal hands, which steered the destiny of the people, and El Tigre was his armed branch. Good quote. Take notes. Unodc.

Danny Gold (58:31)

Yeah, we really do have so many, like, Latin American officials and higher ups and authority figures and cartel guys and Caribbean too. Like in the US Police system right now in the US Police, in the prison set. Like, I really wonder if there's like a master list out there.

Sean Williams (58:46)

Yeah, would be.

Danny Gold (58:46)

Would be interesting to see.

Sean Williams (58:47)

Is that jerking the. Like, the mess hall at Rikers is really good. As a result, there's like, loads of these Latin Americans not at Rikers, but. Yeah. Where do they go? They go to, like, random stuff.

Danny Gold (58:58)

Rikers is a jail, so if you're doing 30 years, you're not spending it at Rikers. Yeah, they're all like, you know, Was it the one in. In Indiana?

Sean Williams (59:07)

Oh, yeah, there's. There's like one in Illinois that I think comes up a bunch.

Danny Gold (59:10)

Yeah, there's the. The one in the supermax.

Sean Williams (59:15)

This is like proper podcast chat. Yeah, there's that one somewhere.

Danny Gold (59:18)

Yeah.

Sean Williams (59:18)

Now we got to say, well, we love it or hate it.

Danny Gold (59:21)

Two thumbs up.

Sean Williams (59:22)

Yeah. So we're getting to the end of this show. Right. The Honduras murder rate continues to be the world's highest in 2012 and 2013. And then it drops by almost half in 2014, and in 2015, it falls off the top spot, beat into the title by, like you said, El Salvador. He's taking photos of me in the studio. It's really weird. This is great news. And, yes, this is coming to the conclusion of today's show. But despite all of these arrests, the work alongside US Agents, the exposing of the link between narcos and the Kachiros and business titans like the Rosenthals and politicians like the Lobos, Honduras remains one of the key transshipment points in the Latin American drug trade. And that's at least partly because the guy who follows Lobo as president, Juan Orlando Hernandez, despite being a key ally of Washington, isn't quite the good guy he's made out to be. And, yeah, I'm gonna do a full show on him further down the line. But for now, what do you reckon? I don't know. Maybe another year or so of doing these from our houses and then more studio or should I come here next week?

Danny Gold (60:28)

I like coming here, dude.

Sean Williams (60:29)

Great.

Danny Gold (60:30)

The snacks alone are worth it.

Sean Williams (60:32)

Oh, those nachos. Yeah.

Danny Gold (60:33)

Yeah. Good episode, dude. Look at us. Look at the real life. Like, you know, charisma. What are we looking for?

Sean Williams (60:39)

Is that. No one's literally ever said that about my life.

Danny Gold (60:42)

The real life chemistry.

Sean Williams (60:44)

Yeah.

Danny Gold (60:44)

In person.

Sean Williams (60:44)

Yeah.

Danny Gold (60:45)

Patreon.com podcast and thank you guys for tuning in.

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