El Mencho Dead! And Mexico Explodes

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Underworld Podcast – El Mencho: His Death and Life
Released: March 3, 2026 | Hosts: Danny Gold & Sean Williams

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Episode Overview

This special episode breaks the news and explores the aftermath of the death of Nemesio Oseguera Cervantes, known as "El Mencho", leader of the Cartel Jalisco Nueva Generación (CJNG) and, arguably, the most feared organized crime boss in Mexico. Hosts Danny Gold and Sean Williams deliver a gripping and investigative narrative, weaving their reporting experience with context, interviews (notably from journalist Owen Grillo), and speculation on what Mencho's fall means for Mexico, the international drug trade, and even the looming FIFA World Cup.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The End of El Mencho (00:28 – 05:49)

• The Raid: Mexican special forces, tipped off by a cartel insider, tracked Mencho to a cabin complex in Tapalpa, south of Guadalajara (00:28). The raid led to a deadly firefight, with confirmation that Mencho, two bodyguards, and multiple others died either in combat or under “suspicious” circumstances while transported by helicopter.
  • “Did all three men succumb to their wounds on that chopper? Or was the order sent out to dispatch them there and then? We may never know.” —Danny (04:30)
• Aftermath: Authorities' statements were met with skepticism; persistent violence exploded across Mexican cities, especially in Jalisco, as CJNG retaliated.

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2. Who Was El Mencho? The Making of a Kingpin (20:44 – 41:27)

• Early Life: Born 1966 to poor avocado farmers in Michoacán; early criminality included guarding marijuana fields, U.S. immigration and arrests, and connections to the Valencia family, founders of the "Avocado Cartel" (20:55 – 25:09).
• Criminal Rise: Infiltrated police, then reverted to narco life; married into the Valencia family; rose through the ranks, forging ties with suppliers in Colombia and Asia; fostered the use of synthetic drugs (25:09 – 29:39).
• CJNG Founding: Fractured from the Millenio Cartel, Mencho leads the "Matazetas" (Zeta Killers), eventually rebranding as CJNG — their reputation built on ultraviolence, beheadings, drone attacks, and military-grade assaults (29:39 – 34:17).
• Innovation: Three pillars to power:
  1. Global networks (partnerships with Chinese traffickers, expansion to 60+ countries)
  2. Combination of corruption and terror as tactics
  3. Use of drones, landmines, and ex-military assets

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3. Current Impact & The Aftermath (36:44 – 54:12)

• CJNG’s Violent Retaliation: “Narco blockades” shut down highways, airports (notably Puerto Vallarta), and cities—unprecedented scale and violence, with dozens killed including 25 soldiers in one day (42:41 – 46:33).
  • “If it was a day like that for the American army in Iraq…it’d be devastating. But here is the Mexican army, at home…” –Owen Grillo (44:36)
• Potential FIFA World Cup Impact: With four matches scheduled in Guadalajara for June 2026, hosts debate if the violence could jeopardize hosting duties, referencing Colombia’s lost bid in 1986 (46:33 – 53:19).
  • “It would just be—basically welcoming US forces into Mexico if something happened at the World Cup.” –Zach (52:17)
  • General consensus: Cartels stand to profit from World Cup tourism; large-scale violence likely to subside pre-tournament despite unpredictability.
• Succession Speculation: Debate on whether Mencho’s wife Rosalinda, his stepson ("El Tres"), or one of four senior lieutenants will seize control. More likely—a violent internal succession war.
  • “Smaller cartels mean more violent cartels. Homicides and other crimes will increase.” –David Salcedo, via hosts (54:12)

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4. What Happens to CJNG, Mexico, and the Drug Trade? (54:12 – End)

• Criminal Fragmentation & International Dynamics: Local groups may now challenge CJNG in places like Tabasco and Guerrero (56:50), with rivals like Brazil’s PCC, European mobs, and others seeking pieces of the empire.
• Kingpin Strategy Critique: Killing kingpins often sparks more violence and has little effect on global drug flow. Overdose numbers fluctuate more due to harm reduction and US pressure on Mexico—not kingpin removals (60:34 – 62:58).
  • “What we probably can say for certain is that Mencho's demise will do little to stem the flow of narcotics into the United States…” —Danny (60:34)
  • “The kingpin strategy simply doesn't work. Law enforcement wants a trophy hunt, but it does not reduce drugs…” –Owen Grillo (62:58)
• CJNG’s Diverse Interests: Their crime business spans oil theft, timeshare fraud, avocado monopolies, and more, not just drugs (64:44).
• No Happy Ending: Without ruthless, authoritarian anti-drug policies, neither the U.S. nor Mexico will significantly curb drug flow or violence.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the death’s circumstances:
  • “Apart from what any sources have told me, just what is officially announced is extremely suspicious…Where is the photograph of the body?” –Owen Grillo (11:41)
• On CJNG's Retaliation Violence:
  • “He is used to these kind of tactics to stir up kind of uprising, insurgent tactics against the government. So with that being our main show, it's not, you know, you can kind of see where he's going to go out with a bang.” –Owen Grillo (42:41)
• On World Cup fears:
  • “It's one thing to be crazy and violent, but to do that in the World Cup is basically like signing your own death notice…” –Zach Harper (52:17)
• On futility of kingpin strategy:
  • “It's tactical and it's not strategic. To really reduce drug flow, nothing has worked except authoritarian regimes like Singapore, Philippines, Taliban. The US doesn't have the appetite for that.” –Owen Grillo (62:58)
• On CJNG rackets:
  • “They’re involved in a bunch of things, but as well as that, this is a criminal warlord…he could be a war criminal. He’s behind mass graves, death camps…” –Owen Grillo (66:03)

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Essential Timestamps

• Mencho’s death and raid: 00:28 – 07:39
• Official narrative doubts: 11:41 – 14:57
• CJNG’s formation and rise: 20:44 – 34:17
• Innovation in trafficking and violence: 41:27 – 42:41
• Wave of post-Mencho violence (“Menchaso”): 42:41 – 46:33
• World Cup analysis: 46:33 – 54:12
• Succession and future predictions: 54:12 – 59:46
• Critique of anti-cartel strategies & CJNG portfolio: 60:34 – 67:02

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Tone & Style

True to The Underworld Podcast’s style, the tone is authoritative, irreverent, and frequently darkly humorous—even as they break down violence and geopolitics. The hosts balance first-hand reporting with lively banter and pop culture nods (Netflix shows, memes, sports analogies). The inclusion of expert voices like Owen Grillo lends credibility and a sense of on-the-ground immediacy.

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Conclusion

The killing of El Mencho is a seismic event—but, as Danny, Sean, and Owen argue, it’s unlikely to disrupt the larger tides of the narco trade. Instead, it signals new waves of violence, infighting, and business as usual for cartels. Despite short-term chaos, the infrastructure for drugs, corruption, and criminal enterprise persists. For anyone tracking cartel dynamics, Mexican security, and the global shadow economy, this episode is essential listening—and, for now, the “case” is anything but closed.

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For deeper dives: The full interview with Owen Grillo and additional research notes can be found on The Underworld Podcast Patreon.

Transcript

[Sean Williams]

Hey, Sal.

[Danny Gold]

Hank, what's going on?

[Sean Williams]

We haven't worked a case in years.

[Danny Gold]

I just bought my car at Carvana,

[Sean Williams]

and it was so easy. Too easy.

[Danny Gold]

Think something's up?

[Sean Williams]

You tell me. They got thousands of options, found a

[Danny Gold]

great car at a great price, and it got delivered the next day.

[Sean Williams]

It sounds like Carvana just makes it easy to buy your car, Hank. Yeah, you're right.

[Danny Gold]

Case closed.

[Zach Harper]

Buy your car today on Carvana.

[Sean Williams]

Delivery fees may apply.

[Danny Gold]

Hey, listener. It's Zach Harper, Amin Elhassan, and Anthony Mays of Cinephobe. You may be asking yourself, what is Cinephobe? I mean, would you like to fill in the people?

[Zach Harper]

Cinephobe is the podcast where Zach and I watch movies that are poorly rated on Rotten Tomatoes and try to ascertain. We're trying to ascertain.

[Danny Gold]

Yes.

[Sean Williams]

Okay.

[Zach Harper]

Ascertain whether or not they're accurately poorly

[Danny Gold]

rated or maybe they didn't get a fair shake.

[Zach Harper]

Cinefo, produced by this guy, Anthony Mase.

[Danny Gold]

Hey, that's me. I produced this show. I also watch the movies, even though that wasn't included in the description. And I also asked it to. This month is.

[Anthony Mays]

Whoa.

[Danny Gold]

Oh, Maze. Why'd you say that? Supercharge it so that this promo can remain Evergreen Macavity.

[Zach Harper]

I feel like explaining a little bit

[Danny Gold]

more in 60 seconds.

[Zach Harper]

I don't know. Maybe I don't bring attention to it. Assuring people, like, look, if you listen, you're gonna get it. Just give it. Give it time.

[Danny Gold]

That's a good promo. Just listen to it. Give it time. You'll figure it out. Is this the promo right now, isn't it? Okay, I think we got it.

[Sean Williams]

Citibo.

[Danny Gold]

Wherever you get podcasts, it's Friday, February 20, 2026, and Mexican authorities have just caught a massive break. For years, they've been hunting Nemesio Oseguera Cervantes, AKA El Mencho, head of the CJNG and Mexico's most wanted man. And for just as long, he's given them the slip. Surrounded by henchmen and swapping homes more often than a meth head on the Mongolian step Step. Until now, the investigators trail has led them to a Mencho insider, a man who claims to be the confidant of one of the narco's female concubines. In fact, the contact says, I'm taking her to meet him right now at his cabin complex In Tapalpa, some 80 miles south of the Jalisco state capital, Guadalajara. The Mexicans have never had a tip like this before they contact colleagues in US law enforcement who confirmed the lover's tryst with a piece of, quote, very important additional information. Mexican special forces and members of the National Guard blueprint plans for a raid on Tapalpa. But they need to be ultra cautious. Mensho is no street thug, and his men, more soldiers than hoodlums, have repelled attempts to capture their Boss before. In 2015, for example, CJNG members downed a Mexican army helicopter with Russian made RPGs, killing 13. This time, the Mexicans decide they'll go in quietly on the ground with minimal air support. Units establish a cordon around the complex. Helicopters carrying special forces stand by. In the states surrounding Jalisco, Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum, on a tour in the country's north, is kept updated at every step. The contact's intel is good. He drops the woman off at Te Palpa later that day. She spends the night, then leaves. Now it's just Mencho and his lieutenants surrounded by a ring of armed men. Saturday comes and goes. Then, in the early hours of Sunday, the authorities strike. The men advance on the cabin complex, closing the cordon, firing at the gangsters inside. The response is furious and deadly. Bodies drop all round, illuminated by strobes of gunfire. Ten die in the chaos. Eight narcos and two soldiers. The state forces close in. They stalk up a hill towards the cabins, which by now are belching thick black smoke. Mencho and his bodyguards split and they sprint into the surrounding undergrowth. A special forces detachment gives chase. They catch up with Mencho moments later, cowering in a bush. Another burst of fire. Then the soldiers grab Mencho and two of his men, all three of whom have been shot, before dragging them into a helicopter to be airlifted to a Guadalajara hospital. None of them will survive the journey. Did all three men succumb to their wounds on that chopper? Or was the order sent out to dispatch them there and then? We may never know. What's true, though, is that Mencho, arguably the most feared man in the Mexican underworld, is dead. And with it, the streets of cities across Jalisco are about to run red with blood. This is the Underworld Podcast. Hello, and welcome to a special episode of the Underworld Podcast weekly show that covers the world of organized crime and what a week it's been. I'm Sean Williams, coming to you from the 1999 studio in my new home of Buenos Aires, Argentina. There's protests outside, there's traffic. It's Latin America and I was late, so I'm getting on board. I'm Joined, of course, by Danny Gold in New York City. We are seasoned reporters. We spent decades chasing crime and corruption around the globe. We are now perfectly located to close the loop on the narcotics trade. Me on supply, Danny on demand.

[Zach Harper]

Nicely. Nicely played, my friend. Nicely played.

[Danny Gold]

Yeah, if you're new here, guys, thanks for listening. We've been doing this since, like, 2020. Hundreds of shows, including several on the cartels you're about to hear all about. We actually did an episode about men show and the cjng back in 2022. Plus, for anybody who wants more, we have a Patreon stuffed full of bonus episodes, interviews, stash house roundups, ad free shows, notes and reading lists.

[Zach Harper]

Yeah, we've got a lot of messages about doing a mental episode. We did that one back in 2022. I think it was republished, too, in 2025. It's a great primer on, like, who he is and what CJNG has done. And for patreon stuff, that's patreon.com podcast or sign up on Spotify or itunes directly and the underworldpodcastmail.com for tips and advertising inquiries.

[Danny Gold]

Yeah, we get a lot of cool stuff these days. However, let's move Swissly on to today's show. That is the death of Nemesio Sierra Cervantes, AKA Mencho, chief of the cartel Jalisco Nueva Genacion, or cjng, which is what I'm going to say from now on, because my Spanish ain't that good. Massive news, about as big as it gets in the cartel world. And as you just heard, Mencho met his grisly end on February 22 at a Tapalpa cabin complex called Las Cabana La Loma, which weirdly, was itself sanctioned by the US treasury as far back as 2015. Yes, you can actually sanction shag pads, apparently. So. Mensho was hardly hiding out in some hillside bunker or secret underground lair. He was pretty much hiding in plain sight, actually. Although, as you're about to learn, getting to him has always been a near impossibility for several reasons.

[Zach Harper]

I wonder what the rates are for that sort of combeta complex right now. You know, like, do you think. Do you think they crash or do you think the notoriety of it causes the price to skyrocket? I'm gonna go. I'm going to go on, like, booking.com afterwards and check it out and see. Maybe we'll do a team building retreat there, you know?

[Danny Gold]

Yeah, I don't think you can filter to take out landmines, but yeah, if you can, maybe people can stay there. In the wake of Mencho's death, his acolytes have unleashed all kinds of mayhem on the streets of Mexican cities. It's what we've pretty much come to expect when the big fish goes down. We saw it in 2016 when Sinaloa cartel leader El Chapo was arrested and extradited to the US and it was even worse in 2023 when authorities captured Chapo's son Obedio.

[Zach Harper]

Also, I think in 2015, right when there was like an attempt to go after Mencho, I believe that's when they shot down the military helicopter with an rpg. Do I have that right?

[Danny Gold]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mentioned it really briefly in the Cold Open, and then we're going to get to that a bit further down as well. But those outbreaks of violence, they seem to have paled in comparison to this week's wave in which narcos have targeted cities and airports, especially in the tourist haven of Puerto Vallarta. I gotta try and say it without some weird Argentine accent by Jata Cram full of American and Canadian owned timeshares.

[Zach Harper]

Apparently timeshare fraud is like a. A big income earner for the cartels. Did you, did you know about that?

[Danny Gold]

Yeah, I've come across it researching this episode and actually we're going to mention it again further down the show because it's. It's kind of funny that a bunch

[Zach Harper]

of times those guys do.

[Danny Gold]

I know, man. Should we get one, should we get one for the podcast? We could do a lot with that. I recorded the Cold Open in the aftermath of the raid. So, like, I think three or four days before this record. And since then, Mexico has admitted that actually 25 soldiers died at Tapalpa alongside 45 gangsters, and another 60 troops have been killed in what some are calling the Menchaso post raid violence. Yeah, that is a lot of casualties. And it's only accurate up to Friday, February 27th, when we're recording this, so you can expect the number to go up in the coming days and weeks. Now, this shouldn't be too much of a surprise from a group known for its acts of ultraviolence who. Whose violence is the tactic and to whom the Mexican state attributes 75,000 deaths. I mean, that is more than the majority of terror outfits and more than the Sinaloa cartel, if, of course, you consider Sinaloa a single organization. So it's no surprise to see such a public outpouring of joy at the death of a man you might more accurately call a terrorist or A warlord than a criminal kingpin. But today we want to dive into who Mencho is, is, or was. And how he went from a dirt poor avocado farmer to controlling one of the world's most powerful narco trafficking groups. One with operatives in over 60 nations, connections everywhere from Beijing to Bangladesh, and worth several, if not tens of billions of dollars. How did Mencho become the last of the surviving mega narcos? And what happens now that he's dead? And given the CJNG was particularly known for shipping synthetic drugs like methamphetamine and more recently fentanyl, will this raid have any effect on the flow of synthetics into the U.S. oh, and there's the little matter of this June's FIFA World cup, four of whose games are scheduled to be played in Guadalajara. Could fighting in the wake of Mencho's death plunge Mexico into an all out cartel war? And could FIFA pull the plug on its hosting duties? Okay, all right, that is a lot of questions. So it's time for some answers to help us along today's show, I'll be sprinkling in some expert opinions from Owen Grillo, longtime friend of the show, Mexico City based reporter for decades. I mean, author and creator of the Crash Out Media substack. Essential reading on Mexican crime. Pretty much nobody knows this stuff better than Owen. We'll put the full interview up on Patreon in a couple of days. And actually, let's bring him in now because that cold open, it comes primarily from information from the Mexican state. And where the Mexican state is concerned, not all is often what it seems. So what actually do you think happened on that military helicopter? Do you think the soldiers were under orders to kill Mencho and his men? Or did three guys just, you know, expire slowly on one flight?

[Sean Williams]

It's extremely suspicious. Apart from what any sources have told me, just what is officially announced is extremely suspicious because they're saying they happen to follow Mencho and his two bodyguards into these woods during this firefight. And they shot all three, but all three were wounded and then all three died on the plane. I'm surprised. You know, I've been questioning this quite hard and caught some flack for that. I'm surprised more of the media aren't questioning this. And it is kind of putting his fact he died of his wounds on a flight and not saying, well, the military said this because there's so many questions. I mean, like what is why the military give us more information? Were the three conscious or unconscious when they were injured? How badly were they. Was one of them conscious and the other two not? Were they all in exactly the same condition after being shot? Did they all die at the same time or did they die, you know, in some kind of staggered like.

[Danny Gold]

Like. Yeah.

[Sean Williams]

And then on top of that, where is the photograph of the body, you think, on something of this scale, which was the top story in the world and a big victory for the Mexican government, like when the US Killed Osma bin Laden or when the Colombians killed Pablo Escobar, you have photographs of proof. When the Bolivians killed Che Guevara, you know, you have those kind of classic photographs of proof photographs. You know, it's not just says it's, you know, sick to see a dead body. It's just kind of a proof of this. We've seen nothing. Which makes. I. I don't doubt that the guy is dead, because I just think, although, you know, Mexico's a lot of weird things. I've been, you know, here in Mexico for a long time, and some very weird things happen. Like, I thought it was no chance that Chapo would escape from prison a second time. Or that, like. Like. Or the other cases, there have been drug traffickers. They've said they. They're dead and they're really alive. So sometimes. But in this case, it would just seem a very hard push for the Mexican government to claim they'd killed El Mencho if they hadn't, because he's such a big player and this is such a big news story. But I do wonder what condition his body is, what condition his face is. If his face is in a condition where they can't show a photograph, his face, because it's been battered by blows, you know, bludgeoned or something. And so that photograph, you know, would look. Would not look great, but, like, you know, the circumstances around that are very suspicious. And I'm serious. I'm surprised it's not being questioned more heavily by the media.

[Danny Gold]

It's almost like the end of a Michael Mann movie, isn't it, that you got the whole sweep, the wave of soldiers going into the campagnas, and then. And then a small detachment breaks off, and the bad guy runs away with a couple of his mates and. And they corner him in a bush and. And they valiantly take him in, but, oh, oh, he dies. You know, we couldn't do anything to help it.

[Sean Williams]

I mean, I wouldn't be as suspicious as a. He died, but he died. And the two bodyguards, they were all injured and they all died. So I just don't know if Some ballistics expert, you know, army surgeon, can.

[Danny Gold]

Can.

[Sean Williams]

Can verify what the odds are of several people all having bullets injuries and all dying. Yeah, transport plane, if that's normal or. Doesn't sound very normal.

[Danny Gold]

I mean, Mencho had killed a shit ton of soldiers. And then in the raid to capture him, his men shoot dead over two dozen more. And then if we're taking the official line, several soldiers corner him, shoot him, and haul him out onto a helicopter. I doubt many of those guys would pass up the chance to lay a few sucker punches on him, at least. And his two bodyguards, if not just beat them to death altogether. But there is more to this. Let's go back to June 2020, because that is when CJNG sicarios surround the armed convoy of Mexico City Police Chief Omar Hafuk. Harfich is. How you say his name? Harvich? Harfich.

[Zach Harper]

Yeah, sure.

[Danny Gold]

Go Forch.

[Zach Harper]

Yeah, that's close enough.

[Danny Gold]

All right. They open fire, and they kill two of his security guards and a female bystander. They hit Harfich, too, who is the son of an actress and politician. They hit him three times, but he survives. And soon afterwards, he declares war on the cartels, earning him the nickname Mexican Batman, which sounds like a really funny Simpsons character. But Harford's rises in Mexico's political scene off the back of this attempted hit. And in 2024, he assumes his current role under Claudia Sheinbaum, biding his time plotting Mencho's downfall. In January this year, Harford plays a key role in the capture of Olympic snowboarder and star of a recent Underworld episode, Ryan Wedding. And then he gets his chance at Mencho.

[Zach Harper]

You know, I really appreciate, like, a good grudge and vengeance story. And this one seems pretty, pretty up there. You know, it's very like, made for Netflix movie plot. I'm sure there will be a bunch of Spanish language like, you know, three season 48 episode shows about this entire thing.

[Danny Gold]

Yeah, I think I saw a meme on Twitter about people with the old thing from Scarface with him counting the money. It's like Netflix producers, now that they know they've got a perfect narrative arc in Mencho's death. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty much tied up with a bow. Imagine a scenario where the soldiers get Mencho, for example, and they get these two boys on that chopper and then they radio into Hartfordshire Mexico City. I mean, we. What do you think he's going to tell them to do? Create a martyr behind bars? Run the risk of an El Chapo Style escape. Write someone in a crash out post. This was personal. The Jalisco cartel has also murdered vast numbers of soldiers and police, including a general of the National Guard. In 2022, the military brass wanted revenge and to draw the line on cartel bosses hitting generals. Halferture says publicly that Mencho's next of kin, his wife Rosalinda, two daughters or three brothers, they could come collect a body, but that may be unlikely. Most of the family are on Mexico's wanted list, and all would surely be interrogated about Mencho if they showed up at a Mexico City morgue. A body is usually kept for 15 days in Mexico post mortem before being buried in a common grave. And my bet would be that is what happens to Mencho. According to a source speaking to the LA Times, Mexican officials have pondered this raid, weighing up the fallout. As much as revenge and security were factors in pressing on, relations with the US appear to have been key, too. Even before his November 2024 election victory, Donald Trump had been warning Mexico to wipe out the cartels, singling out the elimination of fentanyl, which I think he labeled as a weapon of mass destruction, as a cornerstone of his campaign. And in December 2024, U.S. officials slap a $15 million reward for the arrest of Mencho.

[Zach Harper]

Do we find out who, if anyone, gets that reward? I mean, you get to collect 15 million, right? But you're pretty much marked for death if you stay in Mexico and probably anywhere in Latin America. So I don't know. You know, it's a, it's a tough call.

[Danny Gold]

Yeah. I'm not sure if the guy who shopped in men show through his girlfriend is going to get the 15 mil, but at least, I don't know, he might make it as far as Puerto Vallarta with that. I wouldn't, I don't know. Can you lay like a poly market bet on how long that guy's going to survive with the 15 mil or how many of it is going to spend? Because I don't think he's going to spend a lot anyway. According to the LA Times piece, quote, officials believed that if President Claudia Sheinbaum's administration didn't act, President Trump might launch a unilateral raid on Mexican soil. And this source adds that over the past six months, US Special Forces training their Mexican counterparts have even war gamed this exact capture of Mencho. And then in early February, Mexican forces arrest a public official believed to have been corrupted by the Jalisco cartel. This guy turns and troopers carry out a series of Raids on CJNG locations throughout the month. More of Resty's turn, more information, more locations, until on February 20, the officials learn about Mencho's girlfriend and his getaway in Tapalpas, his own again.

[Sean Williams]

There's certainly a massive pressure from the United States, from Trump even before he took office. When he won the election, he began sending out posts on Truth Social, which were then, like, blown up, pressuring Mexico, saying, if you don't start hitting fentanyl, I'm going to put tariffs in it. Before he was even president and Mexico started responding, start getting the fentanyl numbers down before even he took power. I mean, the guy can be, you know, whatever you think about Trump, love him or hate him, he can be effective at certain things with his tactics.

[Danny Gold]

So we think we know roughly how Mexico and the US got Mencho and we think we know how he died. But before we get to the here and now, the reaction from the CJNG and what might happen in the future, we need to go way back, because who was El Mencho and how did he become, by some accounts, the most feared narco in Latin America? It's a pretty extraordinary tale, and one which begins way back in 1966, when he is born in the tiny village of Naranjo de Chila, Michoacan. Mencho, which is a nickname apparently from Nemesio, doesn't really sound like it does. It starts out life dirt poor, scratching and living in the avocado fields. But as a young teen, he comes into contact with a local family called the Valencias, who take the boy under their wing and get him to work guarding marijuana fields in the region. Now, these guys will end up founding the Millennial Cartel and become closely wound into Michoacan politics and law enforcement, earning the nickname the Avocado Cartel because, well, I mean, yeah, they smuggle weed and heroin inside avocados, don't they? Mencho drops out of school and in the mid-1980s immigrates illegally into the United States, where he scrapes by, committing crimes in the San Francisco bay area. In 1986, aged 19, he's arrested for stealing and carrying a loaded gun. It'll be the first of many arrests north of the border. Mencho returning each time to a different Central California city. In September 1992, however, he tags along with his older brother Abraham on a heroin deal in San Fran. Only Mencho realises the guys are carrying crisped, stacked hundred dollar bills, not used ones. And he tells his brothers the buyers are undercover cops, which they are, and when investigators catch him saying this on a tap wire, they arrest Mencho and they sentence him to five years prison in Big Spring, West Texas. Trust me, I've spent a bit of time in West Texas. Shamrock Wheeler, Amarillo. There are not many good excuses to be there. And being detained for smuggling heroin is one of the worst of them.

[Zach Harper]

Dude, terrible opinion. I love West Texas, man. El Paso, Marfa, Big Ben, Dylan, you know, West Texas forever. Come on.

[Danny Gold]

I was. Even as I was writing now, I was like, actually, I kind of didn't mind the times that I've spent out in these strange little towns. It's like near the Oklahoma panhandle, so maybe the stuff down south is a bit cooler.

[Zach Harper]

Northwest. Northwest, yeah.

[Danny Gold]

Northwest Texas. Yeah. I want to go to Marfa. Really? Martha rules. Anyway, Mencho spends three years in Big Spring before he's released on parole and deported to Mexico. He's 30 now. Time to settle down.

[Zach Harper]

That's actually. That's great practical advice for our listeners. Remember our shows? It's Motta, right? It's cautionary tales by cautionary tales.

[Danny Gold]

Yeah, yeah.

[Zach Harper]

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[Danny Gold]

Well, what's he gonna do next? He joins the police force of a part of Jalisco that borders the Pacific Ocean. Is he going straight? Well, no, of course he's not. Soon after, he drops the badge and he joins his old pals, the Valencias, whose Millennial cartel is now one of the country's most powerful. Mensho marries into the clan, tying a knot with Rosalinda, who is one of the leader's sisters. And then he becomes a cartel sicario protecting Millennial boss Armando Valencia Cornelio, AKA El Maradona. Then he becomes a cartel sicario protecting Millennial boss Armando Balencio Cornelio, AKA El Maradona, I guess because he's called Armando. Incidentally, you can check out our two parter on Diego Maradona in the Italian mob from last year, which is, well, one of my favourites to do, in my opinion.

[Zach Harper]

Yeah, that's a, that's a great episode. And just to reiterate because we said it quickly, he becomes a state cop. Right? Isn't it, Isn't that a. Or is he a local cop?

[Danny Gold]

He is a local cop in a couple of municipalities, like near the coast. It's pretty, pretty small time, but I'm sure it helps him out going forward.

[Zach Harper]

Yeah, it's, it's not a unique origin story. Right. Among cartoon higher ups. Believe Amado Carrillo Fuentes was as well at one point or another. I could be confusing with someone else. No, Felix Gallardo.

[Danny Gold]

Oh, really? Right.

[Zach Harper]

He was, he was a cop, wasn't he?

[Danny Gold]

I'm just trying to think through the sort of 25 different shows.

[Zach Harper]

Yeah, it's not, it's, it's not unique. It's not unique. We'll just say that.

[Danny Gold]

No. And I guess it's why they get that storyline from Sicario as well, which is amazing show. Anyway, the Millennial, they are on the up and up. And El Maradona has close connections to cocaine producers in Colombia. But even more crucially, he is Forging ties with the makers of synthetic drugs like meth, particularly alongside Chinese Mexican kingpin Zhenli Ye Gon. Don't come at me for the pronunciation there. He also broke his peace with the Sinal cartel. And all the while, Mensho is proving himself to be loyal, smart, hard working. Melania would be very proud. But not everyone is pleased with this so called Pax Sinaloa. Enter Los Zetas. A cartel formed when Mexican army commandos deserted in the late 1990s. These guys take narco violence to incredible new levels, brutalizing the Mexican state and public by carrying out public beheadings, bodies hung from bridges, torture, and they brag about it too. Their aim is to terrify and they go after the millennial cartel. I think. Danny, you did an episode on Los Setas like years back, right? They're the inspiration for the banos in 000, that crazy good show.

[Zach Harper]

Yeah. We have like, I think a full 50 minute one on their origins, the rise and the downfall. Like everything from starting with the Gulf Cartel to when they fracture and. And the leaders get killed, I think, what, in 2010, 2011. But yeah, they were, they were not nice guys.

[Danny Gold]

No, no, they're, they're, they're very not nice. In the early. In the early 2000s, the Zetas move against the Millennio. And by 2003, the Valencias and Mencho and have been pushed from Michoacan into neighboring Jalisco. And they respond by setting up in Guadalajara, which is the state capital. And they move closer to their Chapo led friends in Sinaloa. The Millennio already have their connections to Chinese producers of methamphetanyl precursor drugs. Right. These are the chemical ingredients used to make the narcotics themselves. And in Jalisco, they have a place that is fertile, warm, desolate in places good to hide and home to major Pacific ports in Puerto Vallarta and. And Manzanillo. Add to that a thriving pharmaceutical industry centered on Guadalajara and it's no wonder that Mensho will end up becoming Mexico's king of meth. In 2006, Mexican President Felipe Calderon announces a war on drugs, pouring thousands of federal troops into Michoacan to clear out the Zetas and other criminals there who are terrorizing the people. But the drugs, they go nowhere. The demand is always sky high. And while operations begin to chip away at the Zetas, the Sinaloa and Millennio remain strong. And look, I can't get too into the weeds on the various splinters and infighting and betrayals that mark The Mexican underworld here. But Put simply, in October 2009, Mexican troops snatched millennial underboss Oscar Orlando Nava Valencia, aka El Lobo, which means the Lobo in English.

[Zach Harper]

Never, never stop making that joke. I think it works in every episode, every single time.

[Danny Gold]

And in the power vacuum that follows, every cartel worth a peso tries to muscle in on Jalisco's state. Amid this ultraviolence entermentia, stage right, the millennial cartel fractures. At this point, splits in two. One side calls itself La Resistancia, cobbled together from gunmen of several of the region's cartels. Mensho, however, christens a new group called the Mata Zetas, the Zeta Killers. And soon after, they dump the mutilated bodies of three alleged rival narcos in the holiday hotspot of Cancun. Beside them, a message. We are the new group Matazetas, it reads. We are against kidnapping and extortion, and we will fight them in all states for a cleaner Mexico. Hmm. Okay. What could go wrong? In September 2011, Matazetas guys dumped 35 bodies, 23 men, 12 women, on a highway in the Atlantic port city of Veracruz. Most are tortured and strangled to death. There's a new owner of this turf, reads another message. Local cops then proclaim that every One of the 35 has a record in organized crime. Kind of dog whistling a path for the Matazetas to continue their brutal campaign. There is nothing in this event that affects the civilian population, said Beracuz's police chief about the two trucks worth of tortured bodies laid across a major intersection at rush hour. Nothing to see here, guys. A war then breaks out between the Matazetas and La Resistencia. The Matazetas win, and Mencho consolidates his power base in Jalisco, renaming his boys the cartel Jalisco Nuevo Generacion. They're known for using military grade hardware and for using drones and social media to get their terrifying message across to authorities. It issues threats to random groups of civilians and carries out massacres to attempt to bring the Mexican state to heel. It promises death on rival narcos in public. At one point, it goes after the leader of a cartel called Los Biagras in Michoacan. We're already here, you dogs. The pure four letters. He means the cjng. Sons of your whore mother. We're going to kill you all.

[Zach Harper]

Yeah, that. The pure four letters thing, right? That's like a big motto, I think they always say. I don't know if it's has to do with, like, purification or whatever it is. But it's. It's a saying that you frequently see with them when they're announcements.

[Danny Gold]

Yeah, it's not moral purity. I think it's probably something besides, because these are not nice guys either. I think there's a theme in the show, actually. Anyway, these guys could have won territory the old way by chopping off the heads of rival cartels, muscling in on plazas and territory, reneging on peace deals. But instead, they do it like a mongol army, conquering, subjugating, massacring, and pummeling dissenters into dust. They flaunt their equipment and ride around Mexico more like a terror group than drug traffickers. In 2018, Andres Manuel Lopez Obradol Amlo becomes Mexican president and he inaugurates his policy of abrazos, no balazos or hugs, not bullets, which by pretty much any account has been disastrous. And it hands free reign of Mexico directly to the cartels. In 2020, Mencho orchestrates the attack on the home Omar Harfuch in Mexico City, who responds by blaming the CJNG directly tweeting that, quote, our nation must continue to stand up to this cowardly organized crime. But I think around this time, Harfootch is like pretty much hobbled by being under Amlo, right? So he's going to try and break out in a few years time. During this time, though, 2020, the CJNG is waging a bitter internecine war with its own splinter group, the Nueva Plaza and the Carteles Unidos. And literally thousands of people dying. It's horrific, says one priest in the Michoacan region of Aguilegia, which is where Mencho's home village is. Quote, what we need is for one cartel to take control, stop the fighting, and impose some semblance of calm. Everything indicates that group is the Jalisco cartel. The only road into Agua is blocked and controlled by a cartel that is only 500 yards away from you and the army are not doing anything to protect our right to travel freely. You don't know how hard it is to be paying a war tax that is being used to kill us.

[Zach Harper]

Yeah, I mean, that's always the fear, right? When a boss gets taken out. Like right now, the fracturing, the factions fighting each other, no one in control. Like, it just. It can go haywire. It can be a lot worse than if there's one person in control, which is basically, I think, the plot line to Sicario and the kingpin theory in general. But yeah, yeah, I guess we'll see. We'll see what happens.

[Danny Gold]

Yeah, I mean, that's a lot of the reason why stuff in Asia tends to be less bloody than stuff in Latin America as well, because frequently one group is massive, and there's not really the kind of fighting that you get in Mexico and other parts of Latin America. But, yeah, I mean, I won't get into these wars too much. You can listen to tons of previous Mexico episodes for more on all of them. But by 2020, the CJNG has come out on top of almost every conflict it's ever been in. It controls Jalisco, but has a presence everywhere else in Mexico. Besides, its members are said to be present in over 60 nations, all 50 US states, and all 32 states in Mexico. They're making billions, perhaps tens of billions, And Mencho alone is worth a billion, according to the dea. Although with these figures, like we often say, they are often plucked out of thin air to please headline writers and podcasters.

[Zach Harper]

Yeah. But to echo, like, how powerful these guys actually were during that time and how much they were expanding, I think I went down to Cancun in 2017, maybe 2018, to do a story for. For PBS NewsHour. Like, Cancun in the surrounding area.

[Danny Gold]

Right.

[Zach Harper]

And it was about how cartel violence was coming to that. That Cancun in the tourist areas for the first time, which was usually. Usually these places were off limits.

[Danny Gold]

Right.

[Zach Harper]

Because someone had them under control. You know, they bring in a lot of money, whether it's retail sales or their. Their hotels are owned usually by cartel members, or at least they're washing their money. Restaurants, even taxi drivers. Right. So the big story then was that violence was encroaching on these areas. And a large part of that, we see JNG sort of making their presence known and being like, we want a piece of this. And that was previously something that, like, really didn't happen. Violence in that. In that area, in Quintana Roo.

[Danny Gold]

Yeah. And that's kind of one of the big questions that we'll get to towards the end of the show. Like, what. What could happen next? I guess most of the time, like, you say, like, these tourist sites are worth way too much money for the cartels to be kicking off there, but in the CJNG's case, they're basically maniacs. So. Yeah, we don't know.

[Zach Harper]

Five thoughts. Five thoughts.

[Danny Gold]

Yeah. Yeah, we'll. We'll get to them. Yeah.

[Zach Harper]

Expert opinions.

[Danny Gold]

Well, that's what people are here for.

[Zach Harper]

Not. Not expert opinions. Rampant speculation.

[Danny Gold]

Yes. That's gonna make us way more money to reach his level of influence, Mensho has innovated in three main ways. Firstly, why rivals like the Sinaloans focus on the US border. Menshow looks to the seas, cementing Chinese partnerships across the Pacific as the flow of fentanyl is breaking into a flood. These synthetics drugs require little space to transport, no harvest, no reliance on shifting climates, and infinitely fewer day labourers, so they're way easier to traffic. And you can listen to our episode on the Pacific Drug highway from last year for more on that. Menshow has also forged alliances with narcos in Southeast Asia, South Asia, Australia, and he's expanded into Europe with the help of Italian Mafiosos, Dutch smugglers and other key players. Writes Millennial. The newspaper, not the cartel. Quote, he even took advantage of highly developed countries like New Zealand. Shout out to New Zealand there, with its young and wealthy population, selling the methamphetamines for up to $100 a pill. He accomplished all of this without speaking Mandarin or English or even having completed primary school. Not something I could say about myself. Second, Mencho carries on the Zetas baton, ditching the old motto of Plata o plomo for Plata e plomo. Money and lead. Corrupting cops and state officials at the top level, but also terrorizing officers, jurists and civilians on the street. It's about power, control, and the CJNG for years had turned it into a brutal, bloodthirsty art form. No episode personifies this more than the 2015 helicopter attack we mentioned in the cold open and a bit afterwards when CJNG members downed an army chopper with RPGs, killing 13. I mean, never before had cartels stood toe to toe with the military using battlefield hardware like that. Thirdly, and on a similar note, is how the CJNG had used military equipment like drones for espionage, security, and even to drop bombs on rivals. Landmines to fortify safe houses, and the hiring of Colombian ex FARC mercenaries to train plaza bosses. In particular, the use of mines has been an effective way of scaring civilians and kind of like redrawing the map in Mencho's image. I mean, imagine that. It's crazy using landmines to actually keep, like, civilians in and out of certain territories. It's. Yeah, and the CJNG are insane. The thing is, while Mensho has a huge global property portfolio, Tequila brands, hotels, restaurants, crypto, mountains of gold bars and Bengal tigers just like us, he actually lives pretty rustically in the Jalisco hills, more like a pauper than a prince. And the biggest reason for all of this is that since 2020 he's been suffering from alleged kidney failure and in need of daily bed rest and dialysis. Which brings us crashing right up to the present. Or perhaps pulsing or whatever a kidney does. Because it's precisely this treatment that means Mensho doesn't move from place to place on the daily anymore, like his fellow kingpins, which makes him vulnerable, especially when he's staying at his cabana in Tapalpa, which, unlike other CJNG strongholds, isn't ringed by landmines. Landmines isn't ringing. Maybe he's got a landline, I don't know. Isn't ringed by landmines. And layers of personnel. So when a U.S. officials pinpoint Mencho's position and U.S. drones hover overhead, harfootch and the Mexican government realize this is the best chance we've ever had to clear this guy out, writes Argentine newspaper Clarine. A month before the federal operation in Tapalpa that would end his life, Nemesio Osiguera Cervantes, the most important criminal in the world, lived on the run, sick and nervous, certain that every move was monitored by the United States security agencies in constant communication with the Mexican government. The DEA had tapped the phones of his main operatives and knew of El Mencho's nervousness. This anxious state aggravated his kidney and liver problems. At 59, his health was in shambles, partly due to surgeries performed in makeshift hospitals. He ate poorly and slept even worse. His sleep was fragmented by trips made in the early hours of the morning from one hideout to another. Anyone who saw him in January would never have imagined they were standing before a man with a fortune estimated at over a billion dollars. No, you're not going to come up with a joke about me. Berlin. Nothing like that. Okay, cool. We'll move on. The rest, of course, is history. I mean, not for me, but for Mencho, who is dead. But that is only part of the story. When news of Mencho's death goes public, the cjng, as we mentioned a while back, they go berserk in Tamaulipas. They hijack buses and set them on fire across highways. Vehicles block roads in Michoacan, and cops who try to clear them are fired upon in Guanajato, CJNG's hot operatives torch 74 cars, trucks and storefronts. Some 20 states are affected by this so called Menchaso, as Owen Grillo calls it. But the worst of the violence is reserved for Jalisco and particularly Guadalajara, where Running street battles have led to the deaths of several dozen state forces. This is a war, right? It's a full blown war. Most of you would have seen footage of fighting in Puerto Vallarta, a major tourist hub. Shutting down the airport, which is pretty new, deliberately target tourist infrastructure when such places, like we said, are usually considered off limits, not just because it attract too much state attention, but because visiting tourists are a big pot of gold for the cartels. And schools, even schools are shuttered in the wake of all this. Here's Owen again.

[Sean Williams]

Yeah, I would say it surprised me quite the breadth of it. The, it was unprecedented. We've seen this tactic, we can call it the narco blockades. You know, narco blockades. The narco blockades, which is really only part of it, but you know, it began. This has been gone for 20 years. And first of all, you had. Copying the tactic of political protesters. So you had, you know, way back, I was, in 2002, I was covering protesters who were protesting in an airport being built in their town called Atenco. And as part of the protest, they hijacked a Coca Cola truck and put it across the road, blocking vehicles. And that was a technique of protesters. It was actually very effective as well. The government ended up capitulating and abandoning the plans for the airport. And then you start seeing cartel do that same thing. They'd hijack trucks and put them horizontally across the road. A narco blockade. And it began. One of the original reasons it began as well is to immediately stop military convoys, police convoys from being able to move around. So it's very, it's effective at trying to stop a capture of a cartel figure taking place. But also it became this idea of kind of inflicting hurt on, on Mexican society and the government. The government, you know, be under a lot of pressure. So it becomes, you put the truck horizontally across the road and you set a light to it. And then you also burn a pharmacy and a grocery store and a bank. And then you also attack a, a police station, spray up with bullets and then stop police cars. And then, and then, you know, I was surprised by the breadth that it reached all the way down to Quintana Roo, which is where Cancun and Tulum, the tourist resorts, are, all the way up to Reynosa on the Texas border, all the way close to Mexico City, the exit to Puebla. So the breadth and the number of National Guard soldiers, I still think the numbers are probably underestimating. And they haven't been generally the government haven't really given A very, totally clear accounting of all the information that's happened. But they said 25 National Guard soldiers killed just in Helisko. And that is a huge loss for an army. You know, imagine, you know, if it was a day like that for the American army in Iraq. It'd be devastating. Or Afghanistan, but particularly the American army at home. An army on its own soil. To lose 25 in one state in one day is devastating. So, yeah, I was surprised. But then El Mencho is a guy who was famous for violence. There's a song, among many songs about I mentioned, there's one called Soy El Mencho or I Am El Mencho. And it says, people say I'm violent. Well, truth is, why should I lie? When I. When I get hot, I explode. It's like the lyrics of the song, which he was commissioned to write, you know, and approved. So it's like he's, you know, he's known for being a violent guy, and he, you know, is known for revolutionizing elements of the cartel wars with his escalation of paramilitary death squads. And he is used to these kind of tactics to stir up kind of uprising, insurgent tactics against the government. So with that being our main show, it's not, you know, you can kind of see where he's going to go out with a bang.

[Danny Gold]

Guadalajara is set to host four group matches for this June's FIFA World Cup. Mexicans quite into football, as you might know. The question is, could the CJNG attack during the tournament, or could FIFA take the games away from the city altogether? Now he's got form with this, right? In 1986, FIFA stripped Colombia of its hosting duties at the height of violence carried out by Pablo Escobar's Medellin cartel, giving instead to Mexico for the second time in 16 years. I mean, could something similar happen this year? Could the CJNG choose to pull off something spectacular right in the middle of the world's biggest sporting event? Here's Owen.

[Sean Williams]

Well, I think the immediate wave of violence on Sunday on, I call it, Phil have called it El Menchasso. You know, you had the corda canasso and the.

[Danny Gold]

And the.

[Sean Williams]

And the men chasso. That has subsided already. There's still some violence going on, but it's kind of, to be sad to say, kind of normal Mexican violence. There's always violence left, some unrest and violence going on around Mexico every day. But the kind of big. The big wave of our violence and shutting down schools and shutting down cities and airports has. Has subsided. Kind of back to Normal already, you know, within two days. However, there's a few things on this one is that, you know, one source said to me that part of the US Pressure was saying, you've got to take out Alventure before the World Cup. Now, I don't know if they were using that just because they wanted to take them and say, like, the World Cup's coming up, Jalisco, get that guy now using as a form of pressure because they wanted him, or they really care that the fact it's a, you know, it's a. A joint North American World cup. And. And the idea of this gangster kind of being around is, you know, they say, you know, we're gonna kind of get this. Get this guy out of here. On one side, you've removed a thorn in, you know, in your side of this, having this very, very violent warlord being at large. On the flip side, you've opened the possibility of more violence and breakups and stuff. Having the World cup in 2026, although Mexico had big. Had two World Cups before in 70 and 86, it didn't have in those days this cartel problem in the same way. So it makes Mexico especially vulnerable to these kind of attacks where you are disrupting the public, you know, making a spectacle to hurt the government. It makes you particularly vulnerable. So if they start, you know, kicking off in like, May, right before the World cup starts in June, you know, that and that. And that can start to. And in the World cup itself. So, you know, they're gonna try and have to kind of halt operations. You know, what does that mean in terms of security? I expect generally the World Cup. My prediction is the World cup will go ahead fine. Mexican. Intense Mexican violence. You have. There's been a habit of kind of normal life surviving through so many of these things. There's been a whole bunch of, you know, really big. We've had about, you know, 20 years now since Philippe Cavaron launched a military crackdown on drug cartels. And there's kind of endless cartel wars happening since then. And during that time, we've always had these elections. You want, can I have elections? And then the elections go ahead, and these various things go ahead. So I think the World cup will. I might be wrong on that. And then we will repost this saying, like, completely wrong.

[Danny Gold]

Freezing cold takes.

[Sean Williams]

But it's certainly damaging. I mean, you know, Sunday was certainly damaging. I mean, people.

[Danny Gold]

There's.

[Sean Williams]

There's going to be a lot of people who aren't used to going to cartel, as most people are not used to going to cartel, you know, related places. And so they kind of. You kind of take it with a pinch of salt. You kind of realize, okay, it kicks off one day, but I can go there. It's okay. A lot of people make the arguments of that. So if they've got, you know, people who got tickets for these Jalisco games or any games in Mexico, some people are going to be thinking, oh, damn, you know, should I sell my ticket? And so maybe it's a good opportunity, some tickets or not.

[Danny Gold]

Yeah, I was going to say, if anyone wants to get rid of one, I'll take it. I stand by that comment. If anyone is looking to offload tickets for Guadalajara, I'm going to look straight down the camera, get in touch like, DM me. Seriously, I want them. Yeah. If there's two, why don't me and Danny do a Jalisco World cup special? I mean, it will be terrible. It won't be much fun at all, but we'll struggle for it for you

[Zach Harper]

guys, I expect, if that, if that comes to fruition, we'll be doing like the episode More hungover than the U.S. olympic hockey team doing like Good Morning America the day after they. The day after. I don't know if you saw those clips, but it did. They're just like, it's like 8:00am and they're just, they're just struggling, man. Like they're barely, barely getting through it. But we appreciate you guys. Like Colton, strong man. That was hilarious.

[Danny Gold]

Yeah. Hockey. I, I didn't know that you would go this bonkers for the hockey games, but it seems to have struck a

[Zach Harper]

group of Rangers fan in the 90s, man. Mike Richter. They won the World cup and World Cup. Jesus. They won the Stanley cup in, in 94. I still remember it.

[Danny Gold]

Yeah, Very small trophy. Right? That's all I know about that. Anyway, maybe we should actually do an organized crime World Cup. We could like play mafias off against each other. Like Haiti versus Scotland. That'd be a good one. Or yeah, the Dutch against the Japanese. That'd be pretty cool. What do you reckon? I mean, we talked about this earlier in the week and you don't think the CJNG would actually step on something as big as the World cup, right?

[Zach Harper]

No, you know, I don't. I. I think that. Look, it's one thing to be crazy and violent and insane, but to do that in the World cup is basically like signing your own death notice, right? Not only would the Mexican government go completely bonkers over, but the entire world would. And you're gonna have a ton of. Of various intelligence agencies there as well, you know, being like, looking up on it. If anything happens, there's global citizenry that will be affected. I just, I think it's just. I think it's a bridge too far for, for even them to do something like this, you know, and especially now. I think it would just be. It's basically welcoming, like US forces into Mexico if, if something like that. Who knows if other country citizens are affected as well. I also think they sent to make a lot of money during this, right? Like, yeah, especially in Guadalajara, you know, who. Where are they washing money to? Hotels again? Hotels, restaurants, retail drug sales. I mean, think about all the English soccer fans going to Mexico, dude. All the cocaine that they're gonna buy. I mean, that is, that is why.

[Danny Gold]

Why us? Why have we gone?

[Zach Harper]

I mean, others as well. I, I think the Australians now are number one in terms of consumption. Right. But like, they. I don't think Australia is in. Australia's on the World cup, are they?

[Danny Gold]

I doubt it, but maybe they are.

[Sean Williams]

Yeah.

[Danny Gold]

I don't know.

[Zach Harper]

I don't even know if England's playing. I don't even know if England's playing in, in Mexico. But the point is that they stand to make a lot of money through tourism, through everything, through retail sales, taxis, restaurants, hotels. Not even just making it, but washing it too. Right. It's a gigantic opportunity for them. So I just, I think all those things sort of align. It would have me, like, my prediction obviously is that they're not going to do anything stupid again. That's not like a guarantee. I just wouldn't assume it's going to happen. But if you think we start hyping up that, like, something terrible is going to happen and it reduces tickets to the point where, like, we can go, that's also like, an argument I'm willing to make.

[Danny Gold]

Yeah, Yeah. I don't think anything happened when England last played in a World cup in Mexico. I'm looking at the Argentine. Okay. Anyway, yeah, I don't know. I think these guys have shown over and over again that their shtick is to sow chaos and terror against Mexico, just like Escobar did in the 80s. So maybe with info gone, like, perhaps the underbosses will try and take his throne by out crazing each other. I mean, they're hardly diplomats. Right. But I don't know. Yeah, I thought that maybe they would go for something earlier in the week, but now that. Yeah, you say this, and I think Owen is kind of, like, you know, things are starting to die down already. Maybe they won't, but you never know with these guys. They're completely insane. Wild cards. Yeah, they are. If anything, they are unpredictable. Which actually brings us on to the final part of today's show, which is what happens now to Mexico, to the flow of cocaine and synthetic drugs, but also to the CJNG itself, info bay, which is like, they're like writing a story every 10 minutes on this stuff. They think that Rosalinda Gonzalez herself, she could take command and become the most powerful narca in history. But way more likely, though, would be a war of succession among the four men immediately below Mensho in the CJNG ranks. It would take me another 15 minutes to say all their names, says Mexican security expert David Salcedo, though, quote, this is good for Washington, no doubt, because what they're looking for are weakened cartels and a reduction in drug shipments. It is bad news for Mexico because smaller cartels mean more violent cartels, and homicides and other crimes will increase. That may be the case. Right. But Mencho's death shows that the Mexican state can go hard at the cartels if they want to. Many experts inside the country had doubted that Scheinbaum could attack a post El Mayo Sinaloa cartel at the same time as the cjng. But she's allegedly, according to some sources, deployed Harfootch and his security forces against Sinaloa while giving the army a free hand against Mensho. And it looks to have paid off. That leaves CJNG vulnerable, vulnerable abroad, where regional drug traffickers might try to lowball them, muscle in on their supply chains, or kill members. In particular, Brazil's PCC have been making big strides across South America, getting way closer to the producers in the Andes and the likes of Daniel Kinahan and the Albanian mob in Europe. But without Minsho, the CJNG is also vulnerable at home.

[Sean Williams]

There's constant, endemic conflicts happening around Mexico with different groups. One example is Tabasco. For example, you've got in Tabasco State, you've got the CJ and G, and you've got a local group called La Barradora, and they get into big fights. And now the, you know, the Barradora, you know, some of these local groups around Mexico, like, you know, like I was in, you know, Guerrero State, you get small local groups who can ally with, you know, La Familia. They're kind of reasonable, powerful. And some of these local groups, they might only be, you know, you might think of it as some local Group, you know, you haven't. You know, it could be like, say like Labaradora or some Los Granados, some. Some group. But they still can mean hundreds or thousands of gunmen, even these like local groups. And so they're. And you know, this. They can be in conflict in a familiar thing. Okay, that's good. That's their weekend there. We can push a bit now. And there's very. There's a whole bunch of territories that are in dispute in conflict as well. You know, the CJ&G muscled into loads of places. So absolutely, you know, groups can try and have a pop now. The. I think Ahmed's gone down mention's gone down now there's. It depends a lot what happens in the secession. So there's talk about his stepson stepping into his shoes. El Tres, which would. His, you know, the. Who'd be the. The son of his wife who's from the Valencia clan. So that would. He'd already have a lot of backing from his family. The Valencia clan are basically very powerful. They form the Queenie faction within the Heliskindi Generation cartel, which was a kind of money laundering operation within the cartel and massive money laundering. I mean, huge. I mean the queen is. Might be the richest of all. I mean, this guy, Federal agent. I was talking to a Mexican federal agent who'd been involved in the rest of the arrest of. Of Abigail Valencia. Abigail Console Valencia, El Queenie. He said this guy was just like, you know, he had incredible amounts of money and these are guys actually move around like Dubai and. And have, you know, incredible resources. So, yeah, you could say you could see a clean secession battle and the arising of a new consultation of a new leader in the Hiskani generation cartel. Or you could see a kind of immediate breakup and kind of civil war. Or you could see the one leader takes power initially, but then other people start to test him. You know, like you might have, you know, one of these regional bosses in Michoacan who starts, you know, disrespecting him and not kicking back the money he should. And then starts to test it and then this kind of stuff happens and then it erupts into violence.

[Danny Gold]

And look, it's just over a week since men show's killing. Anything more than this would be pure speculation. And despite the fact that that would make us a way more popular show, we are not really in the business of making huge bets on stuff we don't know the details on. That is for Danny and members of the Cambodian under 19s table tennis team.

[Zach Harper]

I can't believe they lost to Thailand. Dude, I had so much. They were heavily favored. I'm so screwed for Ramoni. If we please sign up for the Patreon. I'm in. I'm in a lot of trouble.

[Danny Gold]

Did you not pay all of those 14 year olds enough money? That's like so dumb man. What we can prove.

[Zach Harper]

I would not, I would not phrase it like that. At this current moment in time, people can clip that and sort of. Anyway, do not, do not bet, never bet on Cambodian ping pong players. I've learned my lesson and hopefully you guys learn from my mistakes.

[Danny Gold]

No, he's only going with Vietnamese from now on anyway. What we probably can say for certain is that Mencho's demise will do little to stem the flow of narcotics into the United States or anywhere else for that matter. Ten years ago, for example, 17 million people used cocaine worldwide. Now it's 25 million. Fentanyl was just screaming into view. Now it's a full blown pandemic. And meth is still the drug of choice for up to 40 million people across the world. These things are not going away. Fentanyl and other drug overdoses have actually been dropping in the US since around mid 2023, and that's mostly due to a greater awareness and a heightened availability of anti OD drugs like Narcan. Mexican cartels are mostly onshored fentanyl production, taking the precursors from China or in some cases the precursors to the precursors to get around restrictions shipping them directly to Mexican factories inside Mensho. Many are pointing out that killing Mensho is like picking a grain of sand off a cake in the desert. The whole thing is still dirty. Do you like that? Do you like that simile? The CJNG has thousands of businesses, legal and illegal. I mean, they steal oil, they're in the avocado business, there's dark money networks all over the planet, and tons of sitting officials are still in its pockets, writes the newspaper Vanguardia Quote with the trophy in her hands, will Claudia Sheinbaum attempt to eradicate the CJNG's financial military structure, or will she merely display the priors to the fanatics? How will she quell Trump's demands, present at the killing of El Mencho and undoubtedly growing to avoid arresting and extraditing members of her party closely linked to organized crime? Neither is it likely that Mencho's death will stem violence that has been up since El Mayo's arrest a couple of years back. Quentin Somerville did a great report from Culiacan for the BBC this week. And he compared that violence with what we've seen in the Menchasso. Kids murdered, paramedics targeted bodies mutilated and left with messages. A lot of people will keep dying because the cartel is still fighting and it keeps getting worse. One guy tells him the war will continue. Nothing will calm down until there's only one faction left. Here's Owen Grillo again. And if you want to keep informed, apart from listening to this show, of course, check out Crash Out Media because there are few folks closer to the action.

[Sean Williams]

I think they can definitely move drugs. And I think the kingpin strategy, as a strat, like taking down the kingpins as a strategy for reducing the flow of drugs simply doesn't work. The US Law enforcement has got into basically modus operandi of what they do is they take down kingpins. And so, you know, agents, they want to get kingpins. You know, you want to get a big name and then you can, you know, write your book on, go on tv and, you know, you know, I was the guy took down El Chapo down mention. And that's the kind of modus operandi of what they do. And then they get kingpins and they get people and meet up and they get people to flip. And it's kind of this big kind of hunting big game in a way. But it's tactical and it's not strategic. And I don't think they actually have US Law enforcement a strategic vision about really reducing the flow of drugs. I think what happened there was a certain reduction of fentanyl, specifically at the last year. And that was because you had Trump particularly pressuring Mexico. And I think this actually was through the corruption mechanisms where President Claudia Scheinbaum pressures the security secretary, the security secretary pressures the generals, the generals pressure the cartels, and the cartels pressure. The small dealers are like, move less fentanyl. We're under pressure, move less fentanyl. So you can kind of discipline in itself, move other drugs, flip over. But without a very authoritarian approach, meaning if you look at countries with very authoritarian measures of anti drugs, like for example, Singapore, Philippines, under Duterte, the Taliban, these kind of regimes are effective at reducing the supply of drugs by doing things like saying, you know, if we find you with opium, we're going to hang you, or in Duterte's case, we're going to shoot you if you find you're moving drugs. Or in Singapore as well, you know, you get hanged for 15 grams of heroin, 500 grams of marijuana. So that kind of stuff. But The United States doesn't have the appetite for those kind of measures. On the flip side, a kingpin like Mention or warlord like Mention is a lot more than a drug trafficker. First, the Jaliskanu generation cartel did a lot more than trafficking drugs. It was involved in a big. Had a big portfolio of criminal rackets or has, from stealing oil to people trafficking to extortion to all of these different crimes. Even involved in, like, selling time shares. Terrible combination. You buy a timeshare in Puerto Vallarta and you know, it hooks up buying off the Hiscogen cartel because time shares are a nightmare anyway. Let alone.

[Danny Gold]

Yeah, I was going to say, if you buy a timeshare in Puerto Vallarta, do you deserve to get wound up with the cartel?

[Sean Williams]

I've met quite a few merit Africans and, you know, Canadians who, who have their time shares and they bought them and some time ago, they're kind of locked in and they can't get out. I've been to some of these resorts and they'll go very hard at you and try. You know, when you're on holiday and you're in a great mood, it's like, oh, yeah, it's lovely. Yeah. Buy timeshare and then before you know, you're locked in and they've got the cartel back in them as well. But anyway, but they're involved in a bunch of things. But as well as that, this is a criminal warlord. El Mencho. I mean, he is. He could, you know, be a war criminal. You know, he's behind mass graves, death camps, you know, so many people who've suffered from his violence. So you shouldn't allow these people to be, to, you know, have given impunity. I mean, you shouldn't allow these kind of warlords at the same time, you take them down and drugs still get trafficked. So it's, you know, and I don't think the United States or Mexico have fully figured out a strategy to try and make the situation really better.

[Danny Gold]

Even Mike Vigil, the former DEA chief, he said that the kingpin strategy, quote, only tended to create internal conflict within the cartels, which then led to a bloodbath. Is that happy ending? No. But is it at least hopeful? Again, no. Did I write this show while moving to a new country, learning a language and solo parenting, while my son's admission at kindergarten is staggered by the hour, meaning I can only work in single hour bursts in the early morning or late at night? Yes. Does that make me the greatest podcast in the world also? Yes.

[Zach Harper]

You know, people throw around the term hero like a little too liberally these days, but sometimes, sometimes it really does fit.

[Danny Gold]

It does. Yeah. And that. That is a very good note to end on. I hope you enjoyed today's show, guys. Remember, you can get way more at the Patreon, including the full interview with Owen Grillo. And reach out with tips and ideas at the Underworld podcast gmail.com See you next week. Don't Instagram your crimes and new listeners.

[Zach Harper]

If you want cocktail episodes, we've done like 35. Just search back. You'll you'll find them. It's a lot of good stuff.

[Danny Gold]

Sam.

[Sean Williams]

It.

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