← The Underworld Podcast
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- [00:01]
A
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- [01:24]
A
Welcome back to the Underworld Podcast, a journey into international, sometimes historical, organized cross, hosted by two journalists who have reported on this stuff all over the world. Myself, Danny Gold, and my co host, Sean Williams, who for the first time ever, is joining us here from Spotify studios in New York. I mean, not bad, right? Like, the free snacks, you know, the. There's a coffee bar. Everything's legit. But you gotta. You gotta admit, like, it is. It's very bright here, you know, like, and my eyes get dry and I'm like, the sunglasses make sense. Don't you wish you had a pair of sunglasses right now?
- [01:57]
B
I mean, look, if someone's gonna give me free nachos and coffee, they could blind me. They could blind me. They could poke my eyes out and I'll still just sit there drinking the free cold brew all day and say thank you.
- [02:09]
A
You know, I did it for the last episode, but for this one, I just got it. My eyes hurt, dude.
- [02:15]
B
Yeah.
- [02:15]
A
And yeah, guys, this is our special sort of Thanksgiving episode, which means that you did not hear a cold open. And we're gonna kind of do it like we do our stash houses, where we go through a couple of big stories. Luckily, there are some huge ones that have been on the radar that people have been telling us to do for a while. We tend to not jump on stuff right when it's in the news cycle, because I think it's just a lot of people speculating and making stuff up, which we, you know, do sometimes. But, like, not for a full episode. But right now, we're Going to talk to you guys about the, the Lo Lou Lou robbery, which everyone has been clamoring about us to. To do. And the NBA gambling mafioso stuff, which is just, you know, I mean, that's classic. That's the kind of stuff we love. And I think we might talk about the insane police raid slash battle that killed something like 150 people in one day in Brazil if we have time. But yeah, we'll. We'll see what happens. As always, you can get bonus episodes@patreon.com cineworldpodcast or sign up right here on Spotify or on itunes. They also make the episodes ad free and help support us and keep us going. You can also choose just to throw us $3 a month to support keep us going. Why not email us attheworld podcastmail.com and for the holiday season, Black Friday, all that, there's a sale on our merch. The shirts, the hats, everything. The hoodies@underworldpod.com click on the merch thing there. Why not buy something special for your loved ones or for, you know, co defendants, Especially if social media is the reason you are all on trial. Sean, do you want to start us off?
- [03:47]
B
Yeah, I'll kick off. Let's go to the Louvre. Because I think what everyone wants to know is, you know, like how all British people, when they're in America, claim that they did a bit of French at school and they like, bang on about it. Well, we're gonna see just how good mine is because I'm gonna talk about the heist in Paris, which took place last month on October 19th. There's, like been a whole bunch of intrigue about this whole affair, but here is kind of a rundown of what actually happened.
- [04:12]
A
Yeah, I mean, I was making a lot of jokes right off the bat about waiting to hear what mountain town in Montenegro the perpetrators were from this whole time, but that ended up not being the case, which is super interesting. And that's why you, why you wait to do an episode on it till everyone has stopped caring. And we can't capitalize on all the public fervor.
- [04:31]
B
I tell you what people should do. They should not read any newspaper or magazine article that calls this the Pink Panthers style robbery.
- [04:39]
A
That's what I was saying.
- [04:40]
B
Because that means you're going to read one paragraph about this and ten paragraphs about the Pink Panthers. Just read about the Pink Panthers. They're really cool. Did we do a show about it? We've done.
- [04:48]
A
I think we've done a show, right? Yeah, we Did a show on that, maybe an episode or two on them.
- [04:51]
B
Yeah, they are very, very interesting, but this is not them. So Everything begins around 9:30am on the 19th of October, which is a Sunday, so it's 30 minutes after the museum is open to visitors. Nice sunny day in Paris. A small team of men wearing high vis jackets pitch up beside a part of the huge complex called the. Okay, right here's going to be the first test. Le Galeries d', Apollon, the Gallery of Apollo, a grand gilded wing built in the 1660s. He just smiled and smirked. Didn't even say anything to that. There's a reason. I can't imagine there's a reason that the crims have chosen this particular spot. One, it's got a balcony on the first floor and where they can just like extend a furniture lift and easily make their way to the window. And second, this place is holding some seriously fancy stuff. It is the home of the French crown jewels, which I got to admit, I thought only we had them. I didn't know there was a thing called the French crown jewels. A cornucopia of crowns, jewelry and other items going back to the days of the French monarchy, which, in case you don't know, abolished in pretty spectacular head cleaving fashion in the late 1700s, restored in a different form and then abolished altogether in 1870. That is. That's the Rogan version of the history. Anyway, there's probably like 100 part podcast on the history of France that you guys can head to. Anyway, these guys hop onto the balcony and use disc cutters to break into a window of the gallery before they threaten staff with power tools. And then they seize nine pieces of like priceless jewelry by smashing into the display cases. This haul includes tiaras, necklaces and earrings worth over $100 million. But yeah, they are priceless, right? They're historical artifacts. They head back to the furniture lift, head down to ground level and then speed off with two other gang members on scooters. One of them actually drops one of his pieces of loot, which is an 1855 Queen consort's crown, which is gold, of course, and encrusted with diamonds and emeralds. Bear that in mind next time you drop your phone. It could always be worse.
- [06:55]
A
Yeah, I mean, the whole thing with this stuff that's always interesting to me is like, who do you move it to? You know, like, are they gonna. Obviously it's gold, diamonds, emeralds. Maybe you could, you could break it down. It'd still be super valuable though. It Loses some of that historical relevance. But, like, who is buying this? Is it Russian oligarchs? Is it? Is it? Is it Sheikh? Like, it's got to be something crown print, something along those lines, right? It's got to be like, who else could it be besides those. Those two?
- [07:21]
B
Yeah. I'm just going to say Russia because it sounds like the most likely thing.
- [07:24]
A
But, but, but I would also say that, like, you know, how does it work in this? Is this like a special order thing? Like you're. Are you going to risk doing this if you're supposed to sell it to one of those groups not bringing it down, or without having a buyer in mind already? Or is it like, special order being like, we want this. Can you get this? Or do you decide you're gonna take it and then start seeing if you can find a buyer? Like, the whole process of how that works before the actual robbery is really what's super intriguing to me.
- [07:53]
B
And also, like, you never read in the news about there must be fences, right? There must be middlemen that selling this stuff on that probably could be. You never read about those guys getting. Getting captured or anything like that. There must be like a whole network probably on the dark web, which I know a huge amount about because I'm really tech savvy. But anyway, the gang, they hop on these kind of. These scooters and then. And then they speed along the banks of the river Seine. But they're on scooters, right? It's not quite as thrilling as that scene out of Ronin. And then they take a major freeway south of the city and get out of town. The whole thing, the whole thing, right from start to finish, is over in eight minutes. 9:38am this is. I say scooters, by the way. These things are actually Yamaha T Maxes, kind of like. I think they call them maxi scooters in France. They can do 100 miles per hour. Like, they're the kind of thing. I don't know if you've ever got picked up by a motor taxi rider in Paris. It's pretty cool.
- [08:48]
A
Not in Paris, but all over. All over. Like Thailand, places like that. But I guess those are more.
- [08:52]
B
But these are like big, big things. Yeah. I once went on a press trip all the way from the Middle east to Paris. Forgot my passport. And the company that had sent me out on this crappy junket had to then send me all the way across Paris and back again to the airport just to pick up my passport that was in a cafe. And then I missed my Flight to Toulouse, which was the whole point of the press trip.
- [09:15]
A
What was the point of the story? Were you doing it on one of those motorcycles? You should leave one.
- [09:18]
B
It was really cool. It was really cool, actually. So, yeah, I'm a fan of these things. Although not quite as much of a fan as the guy we're going to find out about in a minute. Anyway, the cops know they're dealing with professionals here. Got high vis jackets. That's how you know. In fact, the police do so in press statements. They're a bit like Cucky. They say these guys are like super professional. And they also called them nonviolent, which is. I think these guys, like held up a bunch of security guards with power tools, which is. Which is not non violent, by the way. That is actually, it's not cjng, but I think that's technically the terms for armed robbery. Anyway, what they don't admit is, is quite how terrible the Louvre's security systems had been. So, for instance, the museum had been pondering the security updates since 2018, but it had prioritized buying new art, which I guess you would do as a museum. The only camera outside the Galerie d' Opelon had been facing in the opposite direction to where the raid had taken place, which I don't understand because that would kind of be the road anyway. And according to an insider who then testifies and speaks to the media, I think the passwords of the Louvre video surveillance system was Louvre, which is not great. So this is all very embarrassing. Not very in French, just to let someone walk into your country and steal stuff and do terrible things. Oh, wait, and then France gets 60 and then 100 people on the case. You do not go after a European country's stolen shiny stuff, Danny. It makes us very, very angry. Six days later, on October 25, one man is arrested at Cial de Gaulle airport trying to leave on a flight to Algeria. He seems to have led cops to a second man who is arrested at his home in Aubervilliers, which is a Paris suburb. According to cops, the pair then part confess to the crimes. I guess they won't admit they dropped the crown. I don't know. They also admit to being party to. Okay, here we go. This is my French voip, or organized gang theft. How was that? That sound like French. Maybe Canadian, French, I don't know. Four days later, on October 29, cops arrest four more people. They let three of them go and they hold one, which means that according to them, there is one more gang member at large. We do know a little about the first two men that were caught. One is a 34 year old Algerian national who's lived in France since 2010 and has worked in garbage collection and delivery and also has a police record for theft and traffic viol. The second guy, the one caught at his home, he's a bit fruitier. He's 39, he's French, name of Abdullah. Has several charges including aggravated thrift. He's also a quote, minor social media star, which I think he means he has a few thousand followers. He's known as Doo Doo. He's known as Doo Doo Cross. Hey, hey, Doodoo. He basically so Doo Doo Cross Bitume, which is. I think it's to do with motocross. He basically makes really boring videos about weightlifting and riding his motorbike. Oh, and he does videos on the Yamaha T Max, which is. I don't know what, what do we tell people on this show? Like, do not ride the same bike as you do crimes with on social media. And yeah, these guys are hot, apparently. Like how hot?
- [12:42]
A
10 smoke shots, dude. But you should also note, like, it's super weird. They appear to be relative amateurs. You know, like when I first heard this, of course, Pink Panthers first thing. Or some sort of collective group like that, you know, a bunch of Serb or Albanian experts who are. Or Montenegrin or like who are adept at this and have done it plenty of times before. These guys are not that. Which makes me suspicious, as does I think what you're about to tell us as well.
- [13:09]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, big news is, and the thing that's going to piss the police off is that the jewels haven't been found yet. You got to surely think that this way down the line that they're gone. Says the prosecutor. Says a prosecutor, sorry, a brief news conference called Lorraine becaut. That's a crazy name. Uau. How can you have a name with that? The jewels are not in our possession as I speak to you. I want to hold on to the hope that they will be found and can be returned to the Louvre museum and more broadly to the nation.
- [13:44]
A
So yeah, if I'm going to go ahead and just speculate.
- [13:47]
B
Yeah, please do without.
- [13:48]
A
Without any other evidence, it makes it seem like these are like fall guys. Like maybe it's proven that they were, they were involved in the actual heist. Yeah, right. So they have that. I guess they have that, but like were they trained? Are they the fall guys for somebody else? Is this exactly what's supposed to happen? They're supposed to Take the fall and someone else is supposed to get free. Like, I hate to be someone who spec. I mean, we're speculating on crime here. We're not speculating on like, weirdo government conspiracies. Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, that makes me think that. That, like, maybe they are fall guys or something like that. Because it does seem like pretty big hit for a couple amateurs to do.
- [14:21]
B
Yeah, I mean, like, judging from their. From their backgrounds and where they get picked up, they're not rich guys. They're like poor guys living in the suburbs working, like, menial jobs. We did a show a couple years back about French Algerian robbers. Actually, there was a whole show that I did about that. And the guys in that show were like, proper pros. They'd been all around the world. They'd actually worked with the Pink Panthers, I think, in one case. And they were like fully wealthy robbers. And this is not that. So these have got to be just the patsies for some, like, bigger conspiracy because the stuff they took is incredibly valuable. But they did it in such an easy way and they're just. Yeah, small time crooks. Anyway. Yeah. The Louvre has since announced a $92 million security plan, which is great, but actually considering how big it is, like, the Louvre is by country mile the biggest museum in the world. It's almost four times the floor pan of the Met in New York. I think I've been once and I did like a tiny bit of it and it took me two hours and I got really bored and left. It hasn't been hit much by crime at all. Like, it's crazy how little it's been hit by crime. It's most famous heist in inverted commas. I feel like I have to say that, but now I'm like, on video in a studio doing. It came in 1911 when an Italian immigrant who was a former museum employee broke in. And then he hid overnight on a Sunday in a broom closet. And then the next morning, he walked out with the Mona Lisa covered in a sheet under his arm, and folks didn't even realize it was gone till the Tuesday.
- [15:57]
A
Yeah, that is an incredible move. I mean, that's a Coen Brothers movie waiting to happen.
- [16:01]
B
Yeah. I was wondering why this isn't the movie. It probably is somewhere. This guy is called Vincenzo Peruggia. He makes it all the way to Florence with the painting, which wasn't as famous back then, apparently, like, not a lot of people knew about it. And because he's an Italian patriot. Right. He wants to bring it home. He's not just like a common or garden thief. It's three full years before the Mona Lisa heads back to Paris and Perugia serves a small sentence for his robbery, but actually he's hailed as a bit of a hero back home.
- [16:27]
A
Yeah, I mean, I love the. I love this aspect of it. You know, he's like, it's a natural. It belongs to us.
- [16:32]
B
Oh, he busts out the exit.
- [16:35]
A
It's very like Silvio. You know, you can see Silvio reading a newspaper in 25 and being like, that's what I'm talking about. Like, you know, like, return one for the. For the paisans. So very. I kind of love this guy. I mean, maybe. Is there a full episode there?
- [16:50]
B
I think maybe. I mean, it's definitely a Wiz Anderson movie.
- [16:53]
A
Like, write a script.
- [16:56]
B
The Louvre, by the way. The Louvre, Yeah. Like, it's kind of nuts how little the Louvre has been looted. It didn't even get so by the Nazis right when France was occupied. So 1940, when the Germans invaded. Then museum director Jacques Georgia, that's a great French name, organizes for almost 2,000 wooden crates to be filled with treasures and then sent to locations in the French countryside. And when the Nazis roll into the city, they discover the museum almost entirely empty. Which actually says something pretty dark about the French. But I guess we're not that show.
- [17:29]
A
Yeah, Jesus. Took me a minute to get that. But you know, with French Resistance, you got to give it up. You know, they held their own.
- [17:34]
B
Jean Moulin, pretty cool guy.
- [17:35]
A
So let's. Let's give it up for them. You know what kind of show we are, though.
- [17:38]
B
Let's give it up for the French Resistance.
- [17:39]
A
Let's give it up for the French. Resistan. Yeah, send him back to the States right now. What kind of show we are is the kind of show that find stories a month later that they're in the news and does. Does deep dives on that when people have stopped caring.
- [17:53]
B
Yeah, feature show.
- [17:53]
A
That's why our. I mean, that's why our audience is so. Is growing so massively. That and my refusal, despite Sean's insistence, to do episodes on the quote, unquote, Biden crime family or the. Or the Trump criminal organization.
- [18:07]
B
Let's move on.
- [18:09]
A
We will not do episodes on either one of those. We are a real organized crime. But yes, talking of sport stories that were popular a month ago. Let's talk about this insane NBA gambling indictments that dropped back on October 23rd, which is just like, I mean, tailor made for us. Yeah, maybe not if I Want to get that draftkings sponsorship. I was thinking that, but either way it's just like how do we ignore that 34 people arrested, we got mafiosos involved, illegal sports batting, point shaving, though it's more like proppet shaving, which I'll get into. Injury tip offs, inside information. And then we have the mob run rigged poker games, all with the involvement of guys who have literally already made tens of millions of dollars legally, the NBA players, which is just. I mean, come on. When this story first drops, everyone is like dming and messaging us to get on it. What could be more perfect? I mean, it's hard to find a story that is going to appeal to us more, me specifically than gambling mob stuff, point shaving, crooked poker games. And the things about the story is, it just, it doesn't end in terms of like professional athletes and gambling right now. I, I don't think it's possible that the feds have like one guy who knows everything, like every scam involved here and it's just letting them in on everything. It's probably like an interconnected web where one guy will go down, he'll inform on a bunch of others, and then, you know, one of them will know something new. But it is wild. Either that and the most likely explanation though is that the algorithm for these gambling sites is just too good. Because literally. Or the algorithm like watching professional athletes and seeing what's happening and noticing patterns. Because as I'm writing this, another indictment drops on two Major League baseball players who just got charged with a lot of conspiracy and fraud counts related to rigged bets on specific pitches in baseball games and helping their co conspirators net a cool $450,000. Now these co conspirators, the people betting, are actually in the Dominican Republic, like the, the where the baseball players that are got caught are from. So it doesn't have the fun mafia angle, but it still seems like there's a new one of these now every few months. And those gambling sites, they do math, man. Like they have formulas. Stuff gets too weird, they're gonna run snitching to the fads. So be careful. What's up guys? I want to tell you about something I've been using that is just like changing the game, blowing my mind. It's called Wave Co and it's an app. It's changed my life. And the way that we make the show, it is an AI note taking app for interviews, podcasts, meetings, phone calls, any audio. I mean, you guys know underworld. We do a Ton of research and interviews and all that. Keeping track of everything, getting everything together is a nightmare. It's so much information. Wave solves all of that. It records, it transcribes and it summarizes the conversations automatically in like a super useful way. We use it for our research and interviews, but honestly it's just as useful if you're like a lawyer, a student, or anyone who has to capture important details, I think. Sean, did you use it for like one of your recent long form articles?
- [21:14]
B
Oh yeah, I'm writing a story today, in the next couple days deadline and it has 25 interviews, something like that. And transcribing them all myself would be not only horrific, but take around a month. So yeah, using AI to transcribe it is saving my life.
- [21:32]
A
Yeah, I mean it is. It rules like Wave Co legit game changer. Probably the most useful thing I've used in terms of AI. It'll save you time, it'll save you effort. You can use it for your own interviews, phone calls, whatever. I mean, if you're doing research, if you're running a business, you honestly can't find something more useful. I mean if you're a student, use it for class, lectures, panels, anything. You can even ask it questions about the material and it answers and it just summarizes the important stuff so easily. You can try it out for free. It works for most major languages. It's got a 4.9 rating on Apple apps. 10,000 positive reviews, hundreds of millions of minutes analyzed. It's way better than just some recording app. There's some other apps that do this kind of stuff, but this is like the OG most trusted privacy first SoC2 compliance or SoC2 compliance wave co. Go there, download it now you get a free trial. See how useful it is. Tis the season for all your holiday favorites like a very Jonah's Christmas Movie and Home Alone on Disney.
- [22:36]
B
Did I burn down the joy? I don't think so.
- [22:39]
A
Then Hulu has National Lampoon's Christmas vacation.
- [22:41]
B
We're all in for a very big Christmas treat.
- [22:43]
A
All of these and more streaming this holiday season and right now say big with our special Black Friday offer bundle Disney plus and Hulu for just 4.99amonth for one year savings compared to current regular monthly price and 12 one offer for ad supported Disney Plus Hulu bundle only then 12.99amonth or then current regular monthly price. 18 plus terms apply. This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios upcoming comedy Ella McKay from Academy Award winning writer director James L. Brooks. Emma Mackey plays Ella McKay, an idealistic young woman who juggles family and work in a story about the people you love and how to survive them. Featuring an all star cast including Jamie Lee Curtis, Jack Loudon, Kumail Nanjani, Iowa Debris Julie Kafner. With Albert Brooks and Woody Harrelson. Ella McKay. In theaters December 12th.
- [23:30]
B
Yeah, and these, like, the MLB stuff, these aren't small time guys, right. These are big, big starters. They're really good ones. I think Class A is one of the guys involved. Right. He's like a closing pitcher for the Guardians. He's like the big. He's like an amazing guy. They're making millions of dollars a year, like bulking the game off, like 12K. Yeah, yeah.
- [23:49]
A
The NBA stuff gets even wilder because the contracts there are way bigger. But at least with like the, the first one, which we'll talk about, Johntay Porter, he's a scrub, you know, he, he had some, some issues. Toronto Life magazine, actually, a fantastic article on him. But he was, you know, two or three points a game.
- [24:04]
B
You come to Australia and New Zealand, they have loads of guys like that. That's their entire league.
- [24:08]
A
You're doing three points a game and people are betting significant amounts of money on like they're going to get tipped off. Be smarter. Anyway, for those who don't know a lot of the bets here, we're talking about prop bets, which could be on anything, but they're usually specific bets on like a player's stat. So baseball, what kind of pitch he'll throw. We're not betting on who's going to win the game, although that did happen in some of these. You're betting on what kind of pitches he's going to throw, basketball, like how many points, rebounds or assists the guy's getting in that particular game. Things that a single person, if on the take, can pretty much ensure happens as opposed to like winning or losing a game.
- [24:44]
B
Yeah. And for people outside the states, that's. We call it spot betting. So it's like tiny little minutiae within a game. Right. So like if in cricket, like I did that story a couple years back, it's like he's going to bowl a wide, he's going to bowl new no ball, whatever. And like you can bet on individual deliveries. Yeah.
- [24:59]
A
And it doesn't have to be stats when you're talking prop bets. I mean, there used to be stuff where, like for the super bowl, like, how long will the national anthem go? Will it be over and on? Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's a great, this is a favorite bet of mine, but they actually maximize that at like 200. You can bet on it. But it's a great, it's a great bet. Now this NBA scandal drops three weeks ago. It's actually two separate scandals that came together in this one massive reveal. Both old school. People love to ask, like, what does the mob still do? It does this stuff, which is, which is classic.
- [25:30]
B
The first, I want to ask you a question about that. Further down actually is really interesting.
- [25:34]
A
The first starts way back in 2019 and it's the pokercon and it's pretty straightforward. It involves ripping suckers off and using NBA players as celebrities to kind of help do it. And it involves four of New York's five mafia families. The Lucchesis, the Genoveses, the Gambinos and the Bonannos. I mean the Columbia, the Colombos must have been asleep at the wheel or doing something different because this seems like easy, easy money. What it is. The mob has these high roller poker games mostly in New York City, some in the Hamptons, maybe Vegas, maybe Miami. They run them now underground poker rooms. They've been huge in New York City, I think forever. I remember back in the day, like a few years after rounders came out, poker stars and party poker were all the rage. I got dragged to a few of them in New York City. They were like in like office buildings in midtown that were like not abandoned but like vacant or apartments in like Murray Hill. You know, I was going to relatively low stakes ones, but very professionally run. Someone was making money and organizing these sort of modern poker games. They are all over.
- [26:37]
B
So just to be clear, like this isn't online, it's in real life. They're the kind of like, are these the kind of backroom poker games that you would see in the movies? And you went, did you like a kid with a, with a balaclava on and a shotgun kind of turn up and turn you over?
- [26:51]
A
No, because they're controlled by the mob, which is a real, like, I think some of them have gotten robbed before and it's a plot point on the Sopranos. Yeah, but, but like that's why the mob runs them, because there's money and because there is a lot of cash involved and they can, they can protect that, that money. But I mean the ones I went to, like, you feel cool going, but I don't think they're like the most badass thing.
- [27:10]
B
I was going to, I was going to jump in with the name of the kid who robs the Poker game in the Sopranos. So like this is the one plot, is the one plot point to contribute to.
- [27:18]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's the young Belaka shoots Christopher who ro the game.
- [27:23]
B
It's the son, Tony. It's the son of one of Tony.
- [27:25]
A
And crew make their bones originally by robbing a high price. Jackie Jr.
- [27:30]
B
Yes, Jackie Jr.
- [27:31]
A
Does it in this. But the plot point is that Tony Rob is one of the high pro one of the poker games. But these ones that we're talking about, these are high stake ones like Tony's with Frank Sinatra Jr. If you remember, tens of thousands of dollars usually to buy in big money bets. And the normal way they make money on this is they get the rake, which is the small fee, usually 2.5, maybe 5% for every pot. So every time there's a hand of poker, it doesn't matter who wins. They're taking that little small fee out. It's valuable, especially with high stakes games. And one of the reasons, like I said, organized crime is usually involved is because you have a lot of cash floating around. So they're easy targets for robberies, especially because it's illegal. So you can't really call the cops. These mobsters, they don't just want those nice crumbs, they want more. And they see an easy way to do that. And the way to do that is they rig it like with Looney tunes ass back of a magazine inspector gadget type things. We're talking the kind of thing somebody in a sitcom in the 90s would use to cheat on. Test X ray, rig card table so you can see what the cards are. Poker trays with hidden cameras, rigged card shuffling machines which they supposedly robbed somebody to get. I guess they were like a hard thing to develop. And my favorite, some sort of like trip tricked out contact lens that allows the person wearing it to see hitting markings on the card. Which again, just amazing stuff. Here's how one outlet broke it down. Quote, the orchestrators also used electronic poker chip trays that could secretly read cards placed on the table. Card analyzers with decoy cell phones that could surreptitiously detect which cards were on the table. And playing cards with markers visible only to players wearing specifically designed contact lenses or sunglasses.
- [29:09]
B
So that is when you started wearing sunglasses indoors.
- [29:12]
A
Yeah, people do that at poker tables so you can't see their eyes.
- [29:15]
B
I feel like that's such a rinse. Like why, why do they allow people to wear sunglasses on these pro poker games? That's the whole point of the game.
- [29:21]
A
Can't Read their, read their eyes. People wear the visor. Yeah.
- [29:25]
B
I don't get it.
- [29:25]
A
Maybe their eyes get dry and they're tired of the bright lights. It's understandable. And they had a group of planted players obviously who would use these advantages, exchanging the information they were getting from the gadgets with like mid game text, which surprised me that you can still use phones at these games and secret hand signals to kind of cheat the big fish that came through. And they did this to the tune of at least $7 million over five or so years. So not, not bad.
- [29:50]
B
Yeah.
- [29:50]
A
One mark apparently lost 1.2 million and the feds had been on it for something like three to four years apparently and called the operation Royal flush.
- [29:59]
B
Right, okay. So, so this would be like pretty cool if you're a cop I guess, to watch all these games and then you kind of know all the little tips and things that are going on. Fun assignment, unfortunately. I mean I'm not a basketball guy, so watching a thousand hours of basketball would be, I don't know, I wouldn't wish that on even the guy who stole my girlfriend in high school. But yeah, that would be a kind of cool job. It'd be in a sting of this size.
- [30:25]
A
One thing I do for a fed besides like pretend to be someone on Instagram pretending to be a 19 year old like hot Puerto Rican chick on Instagram DMing drug dealers to get information, which is probably what most feds are doing right now.
- [30:36]
B
It works. It works. Does it? Yeah.
- [30:38]
A
I mean that's my favorite, that's my favorite like riff. I've been doing that for years about like, you know, some 55 year old Italian guy named Frank, Frank Ginsenzo who has to pretend to be like a 19 year old woman on Instagram like DMing these guys and just getting them to give up their entire operation, which is what happens.
- [30:54]
B
Yeah.
- [30:55]
A
So here's where it gets more fun, right? Two NBA players slash one kind of coach who was a player were involved in the games and were in on it. And they were what's known as face cards for their celebrity status, meaning they were used to get people to come in to play the games, to lure them in. These big players which like, okay, Chauncey Billups, like I know that name, That's a known dude. All star hall of Famer, remember him? In college he was on the Knicks for a minute. Current head coach. But Damon Jones, really like, I don't think anyone is bragging to their friends about some assistant coach, the Lakers or a journeyman Point guard who got six points a game. But apparently that was the case. Billups wasn't just a pretty face too. According to some of the reports, he was also allegedly involved in the cheating teams and used to win big, big at the table. And also everything here just have to put alleged. Everything is alleged by the federal government. No one here for these charges at least has been found guilty. Also with Chauncey, keep in mind, my man had a cumulative MBA salary that totaled over $106 million and was getting around $5 million per year for his current job coaching the Portland Trailblazers. I mean, he is doing this for the love of the game. And by game, I don't mean basketball. I mean scamming and cheating suckers.
- [32:09]
B
Allegedly.
- [32:10]
A
Allegedly. And how wild is it this happens like the first, like this, this whole thing happens. The, the indictments, everything drops like the first, or was it second day of the season? I mean, the feds are really sending a message to professional athletes with this one man. They are not liking all the current gambling controversies. So that's, that's the poker one. And they had a lot of people involved in that. I think it was something like 31 co conspirators. Co conspirators on that charge. Very multiracial group based on the names a Chinese guy, a guy named Albanian Bruce, couple of solid nicknames like Tommy Juice, and now mob guys. I think there were 13 total alleged members and associates of four of the five families overall in the indictments. I think 11 of them on this one, which is, which is wild, you.
- [32:54]
B
Know, so this, I mean, first of all, Albanian Bruce is like top tier. That's, that's so good. But also I was speaking to Chris Stalby like a couple weeks ago for the Patreon, and he was saying like this kind of conversely shows how weak the mob is in New York at the moment. Like their traditional revenue streams have kind of gone down the street. So they're like doing stuff like this. So like, it's surprising almost to see these kind of family names pop up in such a high profile thing because they've fallen in stature so much to other cartels and movements, right?
- [33:27]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're still getting money, but the stuff they used to do is harder, harder to do. But there's still like the waste management stuff, as we're about to find out. So six people in total busted for the second indictment, which we'll get to, I think three on both. One of which was Damon Jones, he's charged on both. And Chauncey Billups is mentioned, not by name, like anonymously in the second one, which is weird. You can tell it's him, though. He's not charged, which is interesting and I'll get to that as well. Now, the mob guys, they set this up, but they aren't just used for the setup. They also came in for collecting the debts that some of the poker players acquired. Threats, intimidation, all that. And I assume making even more money with juice loans to the players who hit bad beats, which again, I don't. I don't know that that's speculation. One of the mobsters indicted, I actually recognize the name right off the bat. Nicholas Fatnick Mnucci, who's a gambling associate and infamous in New York because in 2005 he was involved in an assault where he beat up a black kid with a bat in Howard beach, which is a notoriously kind of mobbed up, heavy Italian neighborhood that is not known to be super welcoming to certain other residents of New York City. In fact, the one reason this incident got a ton of press at the time, because back in the 80s, a black guy was killed by a mob in Howard beach. And in this incident, the guy Fatnick beat over the head was in Howard beach. And he called him the N word and said he did it because the guy was trying to steal cars, which. Which I think the guy admitted, but, you know, shouting the N word when he does it, the defense doesn't really work out. And he got charged with a hate crime and found guilty. It's a little piece of New York City lore there. I think part of Fat Nick's defense was that like, he was a big rap music fan and like said the word in rap me all that. And had he did have multiracial fans, I didn't have time to go too deep into it, but there's some interesting articles on that. But he did serve his term. I think he got out maybe five or six years ago and then was caught up in, in this one, another guy, Joseph Lonnie, otherwise known as Brooklyn Joe or Mamino, had literally just a week earlier pled guilty to some charges involving a waste management consultant. So they're still in the game, I kid you not. From the Post, quote, the New York Post, greatest newspaper in America. Lonnie's arrest occurred less than a week after he pleaded guilty Oct. 17, alongside six other reputed Wise guys to heading a sprawling racket that used extortion, witness retaliation and other crimes to try to bring the city's trash and demolition business under his control. Prosecutors said at the time, just for.
- [35:55]
B
People outside of New York, like where, where is Howard Beach? I. I don't really know.
- [35:59]
A
It's like deep Queens.
- [36:00]
B
Okay, okay. Like way out.
- [36:04]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm trying to think. It's near, like on the way to Rockaway, like southwestern portion of Queens. So not southeast, like closer, like southwest. But yeah, yeah. You wouldn't go there if you're like a tourist.
- [36:17]
B
Right.
- [36:18]
A
Nice neighborhood though. So this guy Joseph seems like quite a character. More on his background from the Post. Quote. In addition, Lonnie and alleged goon Vincent Vinnie Slick, Incredible, you know, great, A classic nickname. And squareo got into a wild confrontation with the married owners of a restaurant in Thomas River, New Jersey in September 2023 after the couple asked them to leave for getting into an argument with patrons. Things reached a fever pitch when Lonnie and his crony threatened to burn down the establishment. Quote with you in it. And allegedly beat the couple up later that night. Court papers allege the mobbed up duo allegedly went so far as to buy a gas container at a station across the street from the restaurant. There's photos of this to make good on the threat, but they returned the container afterward. The feds claimed they were not charged in that incident. Yeah, I wonder why.
- [37:06]
B
Yeah, so.
- [37:07]
A
So don't go into debt at high stakes poker game listeners. Like, the guys are still out there and they'll still, they'll still do some things. Okay, so second big indictment, six people, like I said. And this is the one that really messes with professional sports in the NBA and the gambling because it messes with the sanctity of the game. Now it's not the first time this has happened, but it's pretty big because this is players and coaches either deliberately playing poorly to rig their prop bets or letting betters know inside information about injuries before it's public. And it involves big names so they can bet on who is going to win or the point spread before the injury information becomes public and the odds change. Sean, like as a non bettor, do you, do you understand this?
- [37:46]
B
Yeah, I mean it's just insider trading, right? Like it's like when I put my podcast millions into like Lockheed Martin and I make sure that I call my friend the CEO to find out when he's dropping the next step. 35. Like I do it all the time.
- [37:57]
A
Here's the thing, don't joke about that because they take this stuff seriously.
- [37:59]
B
Uh oh yeah. Allegedly.
- [38:01]
A
Can I say allegedly? I don't know if you can on something you admitting to yourself and we're.
- [38:05]
B
Not going to get that Lockheed Martin deal.
- [38:06]
A
No, I mean we have seen scandals like this before. Obviously. The most famous one was the Black sox scandal in 1919.
- [38:12]
B
Yes.
- [38:13]
A
Point shaming in college games was a big thing. The infamous, like I said, black sock scandal. Even an NBA ref, Tim Donaghy, in 2007, he was passing insider info to betters and like changing, changing calls based on, you know, the odds. That was a huge scandal. I think he was in debt to the mob too, or in debt in general, which is why he did it. Now this current scheme lasts for like a year and a half. I think it was one of only, only a handful of games that were bet on. But that's all you need to do to do it right, baby. And Terry Rozier is involved in the scandal, which is crazy because this is an active player who is an all star or was an all star who was making $25 million a year in 2025 or he was supposed to like he was an all star what, three or four seasons ago. And the made incident people are talking about, I mean, is just wild. It's a game on March 23, 2023, and Rozier tells a childhood friend to bet on all his unders because he's going to take himself out of the game early on in the first quarter due to a supposed injury. I mean, Sean, do you, do you understand this? Like he tells his childhood friend, like, I'm going to play 20% of the game, bet against me doing anything or hitting my points or rebounds or assists. And his childhood friend then sells it to some co conspirators for I think 2,500. It might be a little more. I mean, just like, come on, bro. Come on, man.
- [39:31]
B
I mean, yeah, when I was in my early 20s and playing football, you know, if you had a few beers the night before, you might be like, oh, I've gone down. I've heard, I've done my ankle, but I was never good enough to make any money off of it.
- [39:43]
A
It's like, was anyone betting on your record?
- [39:46]
B
Yeah, if they were, they were extremely sad. But I mean, why doesn't he just give his friend money? Just give your friend the money.
- [39:53]
A
I mean, that's the question we're all asking. God. So quote the Charlotte Hornets were preparing for a face off against the New Orleans Pelicans on March 23, 2023. And Terry Rosie write a plan Rosaire at Rozier at a time. A starter for the Hornets told De Niro laster a childhood friend, that he was going to prematurely remove himself from the game in the first quarter due to a supposed injury and not return to play further. Lester turned around and sold the tip about Rozier's intentions to other defendants and co conspirators, giving them a chance to place fraudulent wagers. Based on the non public information. Prosecutors say Rozier was true to his word. They said playing roughly 9 minutes and 34 seconds before taking himself out of the game. The bets raked in thousands of dollars. Now I actually have some new information about all this that I'm going to get to on the end. So if you know all this already, just bear with me because I think that stuff I have to talk about, it's actually pretty interesting. According to the site the Ringer quote, the verbiage in the documents makes it sound like Rosier was just trying to help his good friend make an easy buck on some bets. Definitely illegal. But it was Laster who compounded the issue by further disseminating the information. And that they say that's the case likely to be made by Rosier's lawyers, which I mean, like, like his homie, if this was done without his permission, like could have really screwed him even further. Like, it's worth wondering, maybe the childhood friend had just made the bets himself and not say anything. They get away with it. But who, who knows? And the NBA investigated this itself in 2023, that specific incident, and cleared him. And like I said, Rozier makes tens of millions of dollars and he's earned 160 million over 11 years as a pro so far.
- [41:25]
B
That's just like insanely rich people. But in betting literally everything for a few grand, I genuinely don't get it.
- [41:33]
A
Hustle the game, baby. They're in it for the love of the game.
- [41:35]
B
Do we have to say another allegedly at this point? I feel like we've said a lot with that allegedly.
- [41:39]
A
Yeah, everything is alleged in this situation. Now, Chauncey Billups, like I said, is not named in this indictment, though he's definitely described in it, which makes one wonder why he isn't also charged.
- [41:51]
B
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- [41:56]
A
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A
Yeah.
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B
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- [42:13]
A
It actually feels and smells really, really good too.
- [42:16]
B
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A
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B
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- [43:09]
A
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- [43:26]
B
Thank you. Assets Black Friday deals are an unexpected destination for great gifts for the design friend who has everything, the new mum who will love hole control or for your own sensitive butthole.
- [43:39]
A
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- [43:56]
B
It's really soft.
- [43:57]
A
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- [44:03]
B
Pick up my son, Milo. There's no Milo here. Who picked up my son from school?
- [44:08]
A
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- [44:12]
B
I'm gonna need the name of everyone.
- [44:13]
A
That could have a connection. You don't understand. It was just the five of us. So this was all planned. What are you gonna do?
- [44:20]
B
I will do whatever it takes to.
- [44:22]
A
Get my son back.
- [44:23]
B
I honestly didn't see this coming. These nice people killing each other.
- [44:27]
A
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- [44:43]
B
I got in the driver's seat.
- [44:44]
A
I grew up in an aviation family and seeing Bronx kind of reminded me.
- [44:48]
B
Of myself when I was that age.
- [44:50]
A
That's Andrew, a real United pilot. These small interactions can shape a kid's future.
- [44:55]
B
It felt like I was the captain.
- [44:57]
A
Allowing my son to see the flight deck will stick with us forever. That's how good leads the way. And this brings up one of my favorite things about these scandals. The surfacing of old tweets that call this stuff out before it's known. There's definitely one about Rozier when he made some really awful plays in a game. And this one from last year, which came after Terry was investigated. Rosier was investigated and cleared by the NBA itself, but way before these new charges dropped. Quote if Terry Rosier is being investigated, Chauncey Billups needs to, needs to be as well. Denny Abdisha, who incredible play for the Trailblazers all star, has played 35, 39, 34, 38 and 38 minutes and five of his last six. And the other he played 26, which was also conveniently against the Magic. Billups clearly deciding to bet the under on him first. Orlando. And that's someone wondering why Chauncey Billups is benching one of his star players for no reason. And I gotta say Billups, since he got pulled after the first game this season, or maybe it was right before, is putting up like 30 points a game this season. So you know something Denny, Denny's doing, hitting it. So something was up. Another outlet mentioned a different game saying quote Billups also allegedly leaked secret information to gamblers that the Portland Trailblazers were planning to tank a March 24, 2023 game against the Chicago Bulls. A tip off that netted the betters big winnings, the court papers claim. Again, this is a weird thing to say. There's been some mixed stuff with, with some of the, the outlets saying this sometimes. They say each of the, each of the three players has been accused of being involved in, in both incidents. But like I said, the only one named in this one is Rosier and Jones. Billups is not named here and Jones is the only one named in both indictments. So that's the other thing these guys were doing, letting co conspirators know inside info about other people and teams.
- [46:45]
B
It's gotta be nigh on impossible to stamp this stuff out altogether, right? Like how? Dude, I don't know.
- [46:53]
A
So that's the thing. They're pretty good at finding it, you know, because like everything is formulas and algorithms. The, the, the betting Sites have all this stuff down. There's other independent agencies that monitor this stuff, and if you're seeing abnormal bets all the time, they're gonna start flagging it.
- [47:10]
B
Yeah.
- [47:11]
A
So people do flag this stuff, and it's wild, like, how amazing they are at flag. Of course, I'm sure some of it's going undetected. If guys are slicker. These guys. And the betters were not slicker, but, like, they're very good at catching this stuff.
- [47:24]
B
There's. There's an amazing Twitter account that I follow that's just this, like, French guy that talks about, like, weird bets happening at the end of, like, games in, like, soccer games in Kazakhstan. And then when you watch back through the video, it's basically like a goalkeeper just throwing the ball in the net in the 95th minute. Oh, yeah. That's why. Yeah, it's done.
- [47:42]
A
So you may have seen LeBron name. LeBron James's name brought up on this stuff, which, again, is monumental. And that's because Damon Jones, who was sort of like an unofficial assistant to the Lakers at the time, also a pro who, like I said, four or five points a game, six points a game, once leaked to a better that he was likely going to be out for a game before it was public knowledge. They have his text, and he's texting them. Bet big on the bucks, people. They can get your text. These days, you're almost better off just saying it on the phone. Like, I kind of feel like he got $2,500 for that tip. That's what I saw. I keep seeing $2,500. It could be more than that. So, yeah, LeBron sitting out, of course, that really changes the game. And that's good info to have if you're betting and nobody else has it. Apparently, he did this once again with another star player, but that player actually ends up playing the game, and the betters lost. So if I was engaging in this sort of insider trading, that's what would happen to me. I would get the tip off being like, yo, he's sitting out and. Because that's how my, like, stock and gambling tips go, basically. Yeah. And then he would play, and I would lose. Anyway, this is.
- [48:41]
B
This happened with the MLB thing. Right. I think it was, like, one of Class A's pitches with Volpe, and the guy, like, swings for it. It's a strike.
- [48:47]
A
Yeah.
- [48:47]
B
Even though it's, like, a mile outside of the strike.
- [48:49]
A
Yeah. I think it was Volpe, and, like, you could see him visibly getting upset on the mound. That Volpe's just striking out so easily. I think that's what I. So I don't remember that exactly, but.
- [48:56]
B
I think that's pretty hilarious.
- [48:58]
A
Now, where does this stuff all stem from? Like I said, how do the feds crack this sort of stuff? And with the, with the, with the gambling props and all that, Like I said, there's formulas, there's algorithms, but apparently the poker stuff was a known scam. The ringer has an interest Some interesting info about a poker player who knew the deal a couple of years ago. Quote In 2023, Matt Berkey, the founder of Solve for Y, a poker training academy, recounted a story on his podcast about a series of poker games played in 2019, all built around Chauncey Billups. Berky was told about the game, that it was legit. One scan the list of the people involved was enough for Berkey to call that bluff. Quote I had some friends who went and played in LA and in Vegas and it obviously was for sure confirmed to be cheated. People who clearly didn't even know the rules of no Limit hold' Em are jamming hundreds of big blinds in with a gutty, which is a type of hand, and just drilling it like a hard to win hand. Only the pros are losing. So.
- [49:53]
B
Ouch.
- [49:53]
A
Some people, some people knew. So the poker thing was out right now. There was a much smaller NBA gambling scandal a few years ago, I think 2023 with Jontay Porter, who's a very inconsequential player, but the brother of Brooklyn Nets superstar and beloved podcast guest, not ours, but in general Michael Porter, because he says outrageous stuff. He actually Jonte got up in gambling. He was an addict and owed a ton of money and wasn't a guy who was earning a ton either. Some of the guys he owned, he owed. They encouraged him to do a quote unquote special, which basically means intentionally leaving the game early so they could bet his unders. Like what happened with yeah, with Rosier from Toronto Life magazine, quote. In encrypted messages obtained by investigators, Porter acknowledged the plan, even joking darkly about the consequences if he failed to pay back $8,000. You're coming to Toronto to beat me up. So there's a fantastic article in Toronto Life magazine about all this stuff that I think came out in May. So it wasn't about the current scandal, but as we'll see, it has some relations to it. Porter owed the money to a guy named Amar Awada, a gambler from either Brooklyn or Staten Island. He's the one who convinced them to do the special. And then him and his friends made insane bets on Michael Porter, unders. I'm sorry, Jonte Porter, unders. The insane bet these insane bets to win tons of money. Here's Toronto Life magazine on his whole crew. Iwata allegedly looped in Long Fee, Bruce Pham and Shane Hatton. Pham was a 38 year old Vietnamese American in Queens who claimed to be in the top 1% of poker players in the world. While Pham had never been convicted of a crime, prosecutors alleged that he organized underground poker games. Henin was a serial criminal based in Las Vegas who, in addition to being convicted for cocaine distribution, had stabbed a man nearly to death with a box cutter in a 2009 bar fight. Since at least 2020, Henin had found a new life as a professional gambler and influencer. Going by Sugar Shane, he sold what he called executive exclusive plays, essentially bets with good odds for a minimum of $99 a piece. Those are all scams. Don't do that. Other poker players had accused both Fam and Hennon of fixing several high stake games in LA in 2023. Also in on the Porter scheme were Timothy McCormick of New York and Mahmoud Mala of Lansdale, Pennsylvania.
- [52:02]
B
I mean, we've done like a dozen episodes of Australia and we've never had a double Bruce situation. And here we are.
- [52:09]
A
Anyway, these guys, kind of dummies, they were making ridiculous bets on a player no one knows who gets five minutes a game. They won a ton of money, like a million dollars in some of these bets on insane parlays. They all got flagged and then arrested. And the reason I bring this up, two of the guys busted here in that Porter case, which again is unrelated technically to the two cases we're hearing about now, including the ringleader, Amar Awada. They're also on these new indictments, which is interesting. So maybe someone is talking or someone had all this info that they got on their phones when they got picked up the first time. Either way, it's going to be crazy to see how this all plays out. And now I have a hot take for you, Sean. A hot take. I think you should be allowed to defraud gaming apps. You know why, Sean?
- [53:00]
B
Why? Why is that?
- [53:01]
A
Because the house always wins. You play long enough, no matter what happens, the house always wins. And if they need to, they'll defraud you. They'll keep your money.
- [53:10]
B
Right? So that betting, that, that betting ad, that's definitely. Oh no.
- [53:16]
A
But you know, you know, it's a lot of fun. Just like you and your buds throwing $3 on a parlay every football Sunday, having a great time. There's no better way to bond with your male friends and. Or you're. I do with my brothers every Sunday. Know nothing about football.
- [53:29]
B
Not with dollars, not with dollar bills. With you.
- [53:31]
A
There's no better way to have a great time than throwing $4 on first touchdown score. Seven first touchdown scorers. And just. It just makes the game a lot of fun, which you could do at any betting app that is willing to pay us. But yeah, you make crazy enough bets on things like this, it will get flagged, like, almost guaranteed.
- [53:55]
B
Yeah.
- [53:55]
A
Yeah.
- [53:56]
B
Well, what's. What's the. So. So don't bet. Do bet. Do. Don't you do bet, do bet.
- [54:02]
A
Depends on whether we're gonna get a sponsor for gambling in the next couple months. Otherwise, live your own life. Betting's fun. I'm bad at it. I'm bad at it. But, you know, it's a better way to spend your money than what we did with the Patreon money last Saturday night.
- [54:17]
B
Yeah, that. There are better ways to spend your money.
- [54:20]
A
Way better money. There's less shame involved, I would say.
- [54:22]
B
Yeah. But the rest of that is classified information, I think. I mean, I was gonna do some stuff about the Brazil raid but not.
- [54:28]
A
Be out of time.
- [54:29]
B
Yeah, I think we're running out of time. I think I might do a full show as well because there's some really interesting stuff going on that would be occurring. Really?
- [54:34]
A
Yeah.
- [54:35]
B
But, yeah, that.
- [54:36]
A
That raid.
- [54:36]
B
121 people, I think.
- [54:38]
A
I think end up being more.
- [54:39]
B
Yeah, I think they keep up in the number. But yeah, we'll do that another time. On. Not a special.
- [54:45]
A
Yeah, it's a Thanksgiving episode. You know, like, we're allowed to have a little fun, talk a little nonsense here. We hope you guys enjoyed this. We actually do stuff like this pretty regularly on the Patreon called stash houses, where we just kind of go through and. And shoot the. Shoot the shit about, like, different crime stories that are in the news, speculate wildly and just generally be irresponsible. But it's fun because, you know, we let our guard down and it's topical and all that sort of stuff. Or. Or as topical as us doing stuff three weeks later so we can't capitalize on it. Being in the news cycle can be. But there's plenty of people that you can watch on YouTube doing that nonsense. Anyway, until next week, thank you guys for tuning in, as always. Black Friday, underworldpod.com merch the shirt I was supposed to bring one today. I did not. But it's a great time. Great shirts. Buy them for your loved ones. Show us some support.
- [55:49]
B
Sam. It.
- [56:51]
A
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- [57:19]
B
Com.