Sean Williams (5:10)

Yeah, I remember talking to you about this in sparks like A year ago, but yeah. Anyone wants to check it out? It's called the man who Held his breath for 24 minutes. Outside magazine. I do not write the headlines. It is about a pretty amazing guy. He became a world record hunter by learning to cope with his daughter's illnesses and 60 years old and he works out like 4 hours a day. Looks like a 25 year old. He gets into. He does rowing and he gets into like 210 beats per minute. So the guy is surely gonna die of a heart attack very soon. But he's very entertaining and. Yeah, read the story.

Danny Gold (5:43)

Did you tell him that as you were hanging out with him?

Sean Williams (5:45)

Yeah. Oh, like, loads. And he just kind of laughs. He's like a. He's a Balkan guy, so he just laughs and doesn't care and he just carries on and. Yeah, that's how it's done.

Danny Gold (5:55)

And when this comes out, you're actually. I mean, we're gonna be reunited again. You're gonna be in New York City. We'll probably be four martinis deep at the strip house, which is a steakhouse, please, not a strip club, you animals.

Sean Williams (6:08)

That's a shame. It's not what you told me last week.

Danny Gold (6:10)

As always, bonus episodes are up on patreon.com Underworldpodcast and you can sign up on Spotify or itunes. You can also just throw US$3 a month there to support what we're doing here. Email us with story ideas, tips, compliments, or if you want to advertise on our show at the underworldpodcastmail.merch for all your holiday needs, underworldpod.com and click on the merch section there. All right. Surprisingly, the Arellano Felix family are not from Tijuana. They're actually from Drumroll Sinaloa. Like pretty much every other narco from this era. They are seven brothers and four sisters. They grow up middle class and information about their early lives is kind of scarce. But the narco news website Info Bay, which is actually a great website, even though the name sounds like a. Like a tween sort of entertainment TikTok or thing. Info Bay is what it's called. They. They have said that the brothers, led by Benjamin, the second oldest, they started out smuggling clothing and electronics, right? The Ariano Felix family. Then they kind of moved to Jalisco at some point and apparently the family starts doing pretty well financially doing the smuggling. And they buy like two opulent mansions with big yards and pools, all that kind of stuff, all almost like a family compound. And this is really before their smuggling Drugs. It's in the early 1970s when a young Benjamin, also said to be the smartest of the brothers, meets Javier Cato Payan. Payan is described in the LA Times as a cousin of Rafael Caracintero Caro Quintero, along with Miguel Angel Felix Gallardo are two of the co founders of the Guadalajara cartel. And apologies, you know, if this is a lot of names to throw to you guys at once. We've talked about both these guys quite a bit before. They're two of the most powerful narcos Mexico has had over the last 40 years or so. They're really like the building blocks of the cartel world.

Sean Williams (7:58)

Yeah, I mean, I've been writing about these guys for years. I did a show on them last week and I still need the table set when we're doing episodes about them. I mean, yeah, there are so many, they're almost infinite. I mean, we just did that show about Juan Matabat Asteros in Honduras and he's just like one of hundreds in this constellation. So yeah, we always need that little, that little run up at these kind of shows.

Danny Gold (8:18)

And the way you can remember Carol Cantero, it's. He's the guy like five years ago that ruined the cartel in bed. I was supposed to get with that guy in El Durango.

Sean Williams (8:27)

That's how I always remember.

Danny Gold (8:28)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he was out of prison then and he was fighting Durango's unit, which was aligned with Sinaloa and his guys. I think there was some something what happened where essentially the police, the Mexican marines, the federales were raided. The guy Durango we were supposed to hang out with, like four days before he was supposed to get there and ruined would probably would have been one of the biggest stories I'd ever done. So you know, Caro Cantero, you were.

Sean Williams (8:54)

Messaging me, you said like, who is this dickhead? Like if I ever get to meet him, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sort of teach him a few things.

Danny Gold (9:01)

I think he's like 82 years old, so I think I could take him at this point in our lives. The Ariano Felix family, maybe the Ariano Figs family, they've been family friends with Felix Gallardo since back in the Sinaloan days. Like, it's never not shocking how much a lot of these early incredibly powerful traffickers are related through marriage or somewhere else or like knew each other. It's all very incestuous. A bunch of articles say Felix Gallardo is actually the uncle of the Arellano Felix brothers. Others say Felix Gallardo married the Arellano Felix brothers aunt. But this could be just one journalist. He says it once and it gets repeated as fact, which happens all the time. Malcolm Bathe in his book the Last Narco, which is a fantastic book on the narco wars, says it's not true. And the family lawyer also says like he's denied it as well. So anyway, Caro Payan. He meets Benjamin and takes him under his wing, seeing some promise in the young smuggler. And in 1975, he convinces Benjamin to move to Tijuana with him to move into smuggling drugs. In 1980, Felix Gallardo forms the infamous Guadalajara cartel, which despite its name, is a national cartel, a federation. And it unifies all the different independent Sinaloan traffickers under one branch and basically forms one unified Mexican organization minus the Gulf cartel to traffic drugs. Carapayan becomes the Tijuana boss for the Guadalajara cartel. At this time, the focus is really majorly on weed, maybe a little opium. But of course things are, you know, really about to change. And as soon as Benjamin sets up shop in Tijuana, a few of his brothers start to trickle in there as well to help out the family business.

Sean Williams (10:36)

Did you, did you do a Spanish lesson or something this week? Because you're, because you're pronunciation. Absolutely. You're nailing it.

Danny Gold (10:44)

You know, every now and then there's like one word I can actually pronounce well, and that, that might be it. I'm sure I'll butcher.

Sean Williams (10:49)

Nice. Tijuana.

Danny Gold (10:50)

Yeah, Tijuana. I'm sure I'm butchering Payan or the other names will. Will not be. I appreciate your vote of confidence. It really, it always helps, you know, the self esteem and whatnot. Just a little bit about Tijuana. Nasi, I'm gonna overdo it, which I'm sure you guys have heard of. Tijuana is a big old city in Mexico, right on the border with San Diego. It's founded in the late 19th century and for decades after its founding, it's basically just a few hundred farmers and fishermen. But then Prohibition starts in 1920 and Tijuana turns into a boom town like so many other Mexican border towns in that period. Not just for smuggling alcohol, but also as a kind of sin city for Americans. Bars, brothels, nightclubs, casinos and racetracks all pop up and all the gringos pop over for a good time. Anybody from soldiers to Hollywood stars to American mafiosos, living it up for some R and R. It also becomes a place where migrants coming from as Far south as Argentina. It's their last stop before coming into the States. So even before the drugs come into play, really, it becomes something of a hub. And the population booms from a few hundred before Prohibition and to 600,000 by 1990. As far as of 2023, its population is 2.3 million. So still. Still growing and expanding. And of course, it still has the reputation of a sin city of sorts, you know, for bachelor parties. American teenagers going down there, I think, Sean, you've spent a couple nights in jail over there throughout the years, right? Like, what. Do you care to chime in on what. What you've been getting up to over there?

Sean Williams (12:19)

Yeah, let me just check my phone one minute. I got pre. Prepared something. I think all I'm allowed to say is that very well. By the authorities, and I think that the Mexican government is doing a great job cleaning up crime on the streets of Tijuana. And let's just leave it there.

Danny Gold (12:36)

Yeah, you still have a career to maintain. So we're gonna. We're not really gonna dive into details, but if you Google some articles in Spanish, there are some. Some things you can. You can find. What. What did they call the El Gringo Madman? What was their. What was your nickname?

Sean Williams (12:49)

Let's not get into that too much. But you, you know, you're not a million miles off.

Danny Gold (12:53)

Yeah, that's true. All right, so back to the 1980s. The good times do not last because the Guadalajara cartel offs DEA agent Kiki Camarena after he helps take down one of the massive weed plantations that was rumored to be worth, I think, about a billion dollars in 1985. We've covered this a ton. Not going to go too far in depth here. The US Government obviously goes ballistic in response to the murder. And the first domino falls when Rafael Caracintero is arrested in 1985. Another Domino Falls when Javier Caro Payan, the guy the Arellano Felix brothers are working with, he's arrested in Canada in 1987. Says the LA Times quote, Francisco Javier Carapayan, 29, is charged with running a drug ring that bribed American and Canadian border inspectors and shipped more than 100 tons of marijuana into the United States from Mexico and collected more than 25 million in profits in 1/7 month period alone. The article goes on to say that he was lured to Canada by undercover agents to conduct a big drug deal. But I've got other sources that say he was just kind of hiding out there, but that was a big thing. I feel like in the. In the 70s and 80s still kind of now, where they try to lure these guys into the States for, like, a promised big deal, and then bag him up here. Felix Gallardo, the boss of bosses at this point, he goes on, like, the semi run, right? Two of his top guys get arrested while he's on the run. Sometime between 1987 and 1989, he convenes a meeting of the top Sinaloan traffickers in. In the country at a house in Acapulco.

Sean Williams (14:20)

Yeah, I feel like I could say this with half the words in the script, but you did. You did a great show on Acapulco a couple of years back, right? I think did really well.

Danny Gold (14:28)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it got. I had gone to. Actually gone down there for spring break in the 2000s, which is right before it started projection, this whole.

Sean Williams (14:36)

This whole story.

Danny Gold (14:37)

Well, this, like, momentous decline. And then I was there in 2018, I think, for PBS NewsHour on the cartel wars that were going on after there. And Acapulco, you know, was the jewel of. Of. Of the Pacific coast for a long time. It was like the, you know, Acapulco Bay, who said, Sinatra, fly me to the moon. Tony Bennett. Was it somebody version? Right.

Sean Williams (14:58)

No, the guy. Barry Manilow.

Danny Gold (15:00)

Not Barry Manilow. Barry Manilow. No, Sinatra, dude. Barry Manilow. But yeah, it was this jewel. It started a decline, I feel like, in the 90s and the 2000s. It was at one point, I think, one of the most dangerous, if not the most dangerous cities in Mexico. There was a war there. I think the Beltran Leyva brothers fought Sinaloa over it. And then it just had this decline throughout the 2000s, 2010s. Super dangerous in the late 2010s because it wasn't under one control. They're a bunch of smaller gangs fighting for control there. So I went down there for a newshour and did a piece there. But, yeah, it's still a cool city, but.

Sean Williams (15:40)

It'S the Four Tops. I was thinking of that song by the Four Tops, Loco down in Acapulco.

Danny Gold (15:45)

I don't know that song.

Sean Williams (15:46)

Oh, my God. Going Loco. You know that one?

Danny Gold (15:49)

No, but please, do you not know that one? Please keep singing.

Sean Williams (15:51)

Every wedding.

Danny Gold (15:52)

Please keep singing.

Sean Williams (15:53)

When I was growing up. I shall not. No.

Danny Gold (15:55)

I'm gonna have to do some karaoke when you're here. Where was I? Right, okay. Meeting at Acapulco. Then he decides there in Acapulco, he decides to divvy up territories and responsibilities to various people. You got the. Arellano Felix brothers, they get Tijuana and form the Tijuana Cartel. The Carrillo Fuentes family, led by Amado, AKA the Lord of the Skies, gets Juarez and forms the Juarez Cartel. And finally the area of Sinaloa goes to El Chapo and El Mayo. And they go on to bring back Hector Palma, who had fallen out of favor with Gallardo, to form the Sinaloa Cartel. Gallardo then tries to keep a low profile while continuing to oversee the different groups, but gets arrested in 1989. He tries to run the organization from prison for a little bit with a phone, but eventually is transferred to maximum security and is out of the picture. So the deal Gallardo works out with all the cartels before he fades is simple. You do your own thing in your territory, but if you want to use someone else's territory, also known as a plaza, you got to pay them a tax to move stuff through. For the Arellano Felix brothers and the Tijuana cartel, this is great because Tijuana is right across from San Diego. It's already a major hub for all types of commerce moving across tons of trucks. So it's smuggler's life on easy street. And it also works out fine for the Juarez Cartel because Juarez is right across from El Paso. Sinaloa, of course, is nowhere near the border. So it's not the best thing for them. More on that later. They're going to have to pay taxes and they do not like to be taxed. The whole deal works out well for a time. These guys are all doing deals with each other. They're keeping it buddy, buddy. The money is flowing. They all know each other from way back in the S loan days, or at minimum, they know each other from working together. Unde Gallardo in the Guadalajara cartel, they got so close. El Mayo, one of the Sinaloa bosses, names Benjamin Arellano Felix as one of his kid's godfathers when he's born in 1990. Now back in Tijuana, to get a handle on things, the Arellano Felix look to make their presence known and reassert their power. The murder rate skyrockets. This is when Tijuana really gets that violence and bloody reputation. Independent traffickers who aren't paying their taxes are killed. Even police and judges. Anyone who doesn't go along with the new plaza bosses. They also start mingling with Tijuana's high society political elites, the rich and the celebrities. They are a list guys. It's pretty different from Mayo and Chapo's end. The Sinaloan cowboys who are basically kind of like. Like bros. I mean, Narcos has a great depiction of them. They're just like. They're kind of like Mexican good old boys, you know, just like pranksters. They follow the sort of Sean Williams school of Narcoleiter. They start building infrastructure, churches, hospitals, doling out cash to the dirt, Porcelain allowance. Sean, if there was a famous character, who would you compare them to?

Sean Williams (18:39)

I. It's on the tip of my tongue. I can't. I can't think of it. Is it like something about Britain? I don't know. I don't know. We just move on.

Danny Gold (18:46)

You, you know, dude, he's a fox in the cartoons. Yeah, yeah. Robin Hood. Robin Hood.

Sean Williams (18:51)

He's a fox. Yeah, he's a fox. That's the main thing I remember. He's a fox.

Danny Gold (18:54)

That great movie. He is the Robin Hood of. They are prototypical Robin Hood drug cartel guys or gangsters. They also surprisingly hear this now, considering what transpires over the next 30 years. They try to keep things calm in Sinaloa and keep the violence down, which, you know, they still kill a lot of people, but they're not as bloodthirsty as a lot of the others. But yeah, I think they do away with making an effort on that part. Down the road, the Arellano Felix family does not even bother. They spread violence when they re cert control. They spread violence when they have control. And this is like Tijuana in its heyday as like murder capital of Mexico. They also do not care about the poor kind of. Cause they were like never really poor. And they recruit from the kids of Tijuana's elite, the rich kids, to join the cartel, if I remember right, in Narcos Mexico, which I've been rewatching and you know, dramatizes this, but keeps it mo pretty, pretty, pretty true to reality, but not. Not 100%. Bad Bunny plays the role of a rich kid later dubbed Narcos Juniors.

Sean Williams (19:57)

Oh, sounds like the foreign desk at the New York Times, but with guns. So slightly less nauseating.

Danny Gold (20:02)

This get taken shots.

Sean Williams (20:05)

Oh, my go.

Danny Gold (20:06)

Yeah. But yeah, the. The Ariano can't wait to meet the couple weeks. Literally meeting with them right now as we speak.

Sean Williams (20:13)

But yeah, listen to my podcast.

Danny Gold (20:15)

That's how do they get their ideas? But yeah, the. The Ariano Felix brothers, they're all about these guys. They're going out and about the nightclubs, boxing matches. They're really living it up in Tijuana society. By the way, I think there's A misconception a lot of people have of Tijuana, you know, that it's like this really dirt poor city of donkeys painted like zebras and cheap brothels. But there is money there, right? A lot of money. It's got beautiful neighborhoods, there's fancy stuff there. It's a big city, a prosperous city. So the brothers, they also mix it up with the children of Mexico's political elite, the offspring of the top level corrupt officials of the Prius, AKA the Institutional Revolutionary Party. Mexico is essentially a one party country from 1929 to 2000, and that was the party. And one of the kingmakers of that party is Carlos Hank Gonzalez, who is boys with the Arellano Felix Bros. Also a great quote from him. Quote, a politician who is poor is a poor politician, which is just a great thing to say for an infamously corrupt politician.

Sean Williams (21:17)

And also a Mexican politician named Hank, which I hope is like a Hank Williams thing. But it's, it's a pretty cool name in any case.

Danny Gold (21:23)

I mean, I'm sure his first name was Henrique or something like that.

Sean Williams (21:27)

That's a shame.

Danny Gold (21:28)

But I mean, that's up there with like, you know, calling someone Mr. 10%. I think there's another great quote. It might be a Louisiana guy, maybe Virginia, Alabama or Texas, like someone in the South. He was, they were asking whether he was going to lose an election and he said the only way I lose is if I get caught with a dead girl or a live boy. Which is like one of the all time, one of the all time politician quotes right there, you know, you know.

Sean Williams (21:50)

You really, you really feel bad for like Howard Dean when he got done for that screenwriting. When people are going around saying stuff.

Danny Gold (21:55)

Like this, I mean, the guy couldn't. I wish I should have googled it before this, but I want, I like keeping the mystery, but that. What an incredible quote for a politician to give.

Sean Williams (22:02)

Yeah.

Danny Gold (22:03)

In Malcolm Bates the Last Narco, which a great source for this. In all narco episodes, he quotes a senior Mexican law enforcement source who calls Hank Gonzalez, quote, the primary intermediary between the multinational drug trafficking enterprises and the Mexican political system. So these are some high level government officials the Tijuana boys have on the payroll. And of course they're also bribing all the local politicians and police forces as well as one does. As I was editing this episode, actually, I saw an article about Hank Gonzalez's son and grandson. They've both recently been sanctioned by the US as being suspected money launderers for the Maito Faction of the Sinalo cartel. So still kind of keeping it all in the family, just, you know, doing the family business right there. So they bribe and they rule by fear and intimidation and just straight up murking whoever gets in their way in a noticeably more aggressive way than the other cartel guys at the time who yes, killed a lot of people, but aren't so gratuitous with the violence. Like El Mayo, we've talked about this before. He kills for business in a cold, calculating manner. Whereas the Arell Felix bros, they just kill just cuz. And no one better represents this than than Ramon Arellano. Felix. What's up guys? I want to tell you about something I've been using that is just like changing the game, blowing my mind. It's called Wave Co and the it's an app, it's changed my life and the way that we make the show. It is an AI note taking app for interviews, podcasts, meetings, phone calls, any audio. I mean, you guys know underworld. We do a ton of research and interviews and all that. Keeping track of everything, getting everything together is a nightmare. It's so much information. Wage solves all of that. It records, it transcribes and it summarizes the conversations automatically in like a super useful way. We use it for our research and interviews, but honestly it's just as useful if you're like a lawyer, a student, or anyone who has to capture important details, I think. Sean, did you use it for like one of your recent long form articles?

Sean Williams (24:00)

Oh yeah, I'm writing a story today, in the next couple days deadline and it has 25 interviews, something like that. And transcribing them all myself would be not only horrific, but take around a month. So yeah, using AI to transcribe it is saving my life.

Danny Gold (24:18)

Yeah, I mean it is. It rules like Wave Co, legit game changer. Probably the most useful thing I've used in terms of AI. It'll save you time, it'll save you effort. You can use it for your own interviews, phone calls, whatever. I mean, if you're doing research, if you're running a business, you honestly can't find something more useful. I mean, if you're a student, use it for class lectures, panels, anything. You can even ask it questions about the material and it answers and it just summarizes the important stuff so easily. You can try it out for free. It works for most major languages. It's got a 4.9 rating on Apple apps. 10,000 positive reviews, hundreds of millions of minutes analyzed. It's way Better than just some recording app. There's some other apps that, that do this kind of stuff, but this is like the OG most trusted privacy first SoC2 compliance or SoC2 compliance wave co. Go there, download it. Now you get a free trial. See how useful it is. Guys, the countdown is on. Holiday shopping season is officially here. And Uncommon Goods takes the stress out of gifting with thousands of unique, high quality finds you're not going to see anywhere else. They've got products that are high quality, unique, often handmade or made in the US and many are crafted by independent artists and small businesses. It makes every gift that you get someone feel meaningful and truly one of a kind. I've gotten two things from there recently. One was this, these hot sauces, like a US hot sauce kind of collection, like five different ones. I finished the first three, but yeah, it's pretty cool. I don't feel like you can't find that anywhere else. And then I got this, this thing called like juice box which is like a like extra battery pack for your phone but it's magnetic so you don't need a plug. Really useful stuff. I got them for myself. But now the holiday season is here. You know, you can get it for, for your dad, for your mom, for your kids, for, for teens, book lovers, history buffs. They've got all sorts of cool stuff with like, you know, all sorts of like fancy cocktail drink stuff, foodie stuff, gardening stuff. You're going to find stuff you're not going to find anywhere else. And with every purchase you make at Uncommon Goods, they give back $1 to a nonprofit partner of your choice. And they've donated more than $3.1 million to date. So don't wait. Cross those names off your list before the rush. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongs.com Underworld that's uncommongoods.com Underworld for 15% off. Uncommon Goods were all out of the ordinary. Un c o m m o n goods. He is 10 years younger than Benjamin and is the cartel's enforcer extraordinaire. Just a real piece of work. Many view him as the second in command. And a Mexican journalist once likened Benjamin to Michael and the Godfather. You know, the CEO, cold calculating businessman where Ramon is the more impulsive, hot headed Sonny. But Ramon is no Sonny. Shout out to James Caan. He is a complete psycho lunatic. And the book El Narco, which is written by friend of the pod Owen Grillo, also a great source for this and all other narco stuff. It actually refers to him as the pioneer of narco terrorism. So, you know, we've seen it a million times with the Zetas and with Jalisco. New Generation. But Owen contends that Ramon is actually the originator of some of these narco terror tactics. Whether it was throwing someone into a barrel of acid or leaving a body on the street in public with a statement not attached, his most preferred method of taking someone's life is actually barbecuing entire families while him and his goons party around the fire pit with tequila and cocaine. So, really, like, you know, a nut job? Do we have to start saying, like, unaliving? Is that something you have to do, Sean? Like, do you. Can you imagine being to do that in all NFL episodes, replacing every incident in the, in the world, in the. That we say with unlike. I don't know, man, maybe. Maybe eventually we'll stop getting demonetized on YouTube.

Sean Williams (28:14)

Wait, this is, this is the thing people are saying unalive.

Danny Gold (28:16)

Oh, yeah, you. You do it. Everyone does it so they don't get demonetized, which we keep getting.

Sean Williams (28:22)

I'm embracing old age. I don't. I can't. I can't be doing with this. No, I'm. I'm good.

Danny Gold (28:27)

To quote a 2001 Time magazine article on the brothers, according to testimony from former associates, Ramon often rises in the morning announcing, I feel like killing somebody today.

Sean Williams (28:38)

Yeah, I mean, you know, I do that too. But then I just internalize it all. I drink tons of coffee, I kind of get into petty spats with my family, and then I do road rage, which is the correct way of getting that.

Danny Gold (28:49)

Yeah, I think the difference between, like, me waking up and then you waking up and doing that is that Ramon follows through with it repeatedly.

Sean Williams (28:57)

You know, what would Huberman say about the difference between me and him?

Danny Gold (29:01)

He's a go getter, dude. You're just, you know, not about that life.

Sean Williams (29:05)

Another loser salary man.

Danny Gold (29:07)

And I know. We. We. Yeah, you're not, you're not in the. What's it called in the, in the, in the Coliseum, in the forum, what do they say? I. I know, I know.

Sean Williams (29:16)

Well, I, I, I listen to an embarrassingly little amount of that, but what I do know, I love it, actually. Yeah. I need to rise and grind a lot more. Not rise, Rise and be mediocre. That could be our new T shirt.

Danny Gold (29:27)

Actually, rising's the worst. I know we talk about how stuff gets exaggerated and lore and rumors and all that, but there's lots of articles and sources that basically say the same thing. Ramon just would feel like killing someone, and then him and his goons would just go kill somebody. I mean, if you listen to our Amado Carrillo Fuentes or Amayo episode, his contemporaries, these guys did not act like this. Though there is a different account. There's an old Frontline episode about the drug war when they're discussing the Tijuana cartel. And an independent trafficker says that the Tijuana cartel are actually quite amicable to work with as long as you pay the tax, and they'll even help you move the drugs as long as you pay. Granted, he also says that if they caught you trying to move drugs without their knowledge, they would kill you in a second. So maybe it's not that differing, you know, in account. It's the old but he was nice to his mom thing that they deal with with mafiosas.

Sean Williams (30:15)

Yeah.

Danny Gold (30:16)

So the Arellano Felix bros, they're doing their thing, getting along somewhat with the other cartel bosses for the time being. But in early 1991, the brothers El Chapo and Sinaloa cartel co founder Hector Palma, they start having issues with a trafficker who isn't paying taxes. And the thing is, when Miguel Onyx Felix Gallardo, the founder of the super cartel Guadalajara, goes to prison, he breaks up the cartels into these smaller cartels. But he also designates a couple of traffickers that are able to freely move between the Sinaloa cartel and Tijuana cartel territory without paying them. So they could kind of coordinate deals between everyone. But after a while, the cartels decide they've had enough of this arrangement. So they kidnap one of these traffickers, they take him out to a farm, and they put both his hands in the thresher machine, essentially amputating them in the worst way possible. Do you think they, like, asked him beforehand to calm it down? Like they gave him a chance to pay the taxes? It kind of seems unfair if they didn't beforehand.

Sean Williams (31:12)

Is that an intentional pun?

Danny Gold (31:13)

No, but I see that. I see that now because they might not have, because even after that, the guy. Or they might have, because he just doesn't listen. He has no hands, but he does have 12 bodyguards for protection driving around with him afterward. And the fellas decide they need to send a message. So obviously they pick Ramon to kill him. Ramon gets a bunch of hitmen and waits for them on the road and then puts 600 bullets in the car. So, yeah, these guys, you know, the car. Other cartel guys are getting along. Sinaloa and Ramon and the Ariel Felix with the occasional bickering but you know, they're killing people together and that's really har. Cartel guys. That's really how the bosses bond. This story, by the way, it comes from the book El Cartel Los Arellano Felix, La Mafia Mas Poderosa and La Historia d' Amerika Latina, which translates into the Cartel, the Arellano Felix Family, the most powerful mafia in Latin American history. By Jesus Blencornelius. And remember that name. How'd I do? What do we think? What do you think?

Sean Williams (32:11)

I'm giving you a solid 8 out of 10 there.

Danny Gold (32:12)

I understand Spanish. I just can't. I just can't pronounce words in any language. Remember the name Jesus Blanc. Cornelius Blanco. Near Blanco.

Sean Williams (32:22)

You remember that name?

Danny Gold (32:23)

Yeah, because he's going to be in the episode later on in an absolutely insane story. The honeymoon with these guys, though, it never lasts, does it?

Sean Williams (32:32)

Sean, Was that. Was that just an underhand comment on my failed marriage? Danny.

Danny Gold (32:36)

No, no, no, no, no. Dude, you're doing great. Well, your second. Are you?

Sean Williams (32:41)

I'm doing great.

Danny Gold (32:41)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look what happened.

Sean Williams (32:43)

Oklahoma. Together.

Danny Gold (32:44)

No one expects anything that happens in Oklahoma to last or be good, you know, like that wasn't. That wasn't your fault. You knew.

Sean Williams (32:50)

Screw that place.

Danny Gold (32:51)

By the summer of 1999, Tijuana is starting to have more issues with Sinaloa, specifically El Chapo and Hector Palma. Not so much with El Mayo. As we've detailed many times previously, the Sinaloa cartel isn't like the other cartels with a top down structure. You know, Amado at the head of Juarez or the Arellano Felix at the head of Tijuana Cartel. In Sinaloa, there are multiple allied organizations that often work together, pool resources and corrupt politicians, and agree on an overall strategy. But they're still their own independent operations with their own people. That's why the Tijuana cartel can get into it with Hector Palma and Chapo and not get into it with Mayo. Which is weird because I feel like if I was in something with my two bros and an outsider was clashing with them, like I'd be on their side, you know, I mean, maybe that's just me, though. I'm built different, you know? Sean, this kerfuffle starts because the Sinaloa cartel doesn't have any border territory like the other three cartels, Juarez, Gulf and Tijuana. And they want to. They want to move stuff through Tijuana now without paying the Tijuana tax. This is around when and why El Chapo actually starts using the tunnels he later became famous for. So Chapa and the Arellano Felix brothers, they start having problems. Even though in Annabel Hernandez's book Narcoland, she quotes Chapo as saying he used to be friends with the Arellano Felix brothers. Again, these guys were all boys or relatives. Then the Tijuana cartel puts out the word that taxes in their territory are going up to all the other traffickers, really putting the screws on Chapo and Sinaloa. And then their shipments start getting seized all over the States, and Tijuana starts to seem like it's getting a lot less friendly for them. In their eyes, it's Chapo pulling the strings with his contacts and. And making their lives and their business difficult. So once again, a meeting is planned, this time in Mexico City between Benjamin, another top Tijuana cartel leader, El Mayo, and El Chapo to bury the hatchet once and for all. This time, though, apparently Chapo is planning to kill Benjamin and the other Tijuana leader. And they find out so they don't end up going to Mexico City after all. And it's kind of like. It's like the Roadrunner over here. Like Looney Tunes, right? These guys, their zany hijinks and planning meetings and trying to kill each other. And that's when we get the cold open and the clowns. Send in the clowns, Sean. Send in the clowns.

Sean Williams (35:02)

I would actually like Dale to play the music at this point. Cause it's a. That is a stone cold banger, that song.

Danny Gold (35:08)

Which song?

Sean Williams (35:09)

Send in the Clowns.

Danny Gold (35:10)

I don't know if we can do that.

Sean Williams (35:11)

Stephen Sondheim, man.

Danny Gold (35:12)

A little night music, we might get dinged on the. I thought you meant the Da da da da da da da da da.

Sean Williams (35:19)

Is that called the Entertainer?

Danny Gold (35:21)

I think when they send in the actual clowns in like a circus, you know?

Sean Williams (35:25)

Yeah, that's. I think that's called the Entertainer, and that's by some French person, so that's probably why I've deleted it from my memory. But, yeah, the Sondheim one. I don't want to be putting play either. Awesome.

Danny Gold (35:34)

Maybe Dale can do. He's a musician. He could just make his own version. We could rip.

Sean Williams (35:38)

Yeah, Dale, just make your own version of it.

Danny Gold (35:40)

Today, in response to the hit at that party, the Arella Felix brothers, they turned to their American gangbanger friend, David Baron Corona, who we said recruits 30 of his friends. I think they're from Logan Heights, San Diego. One of the gangbangers would later write like a really terrible book. But in it, he details that their schedule. They've got five days on, two days off, like a regular job. I think their pay is 500 bucks a day, with large irregular bonuses for successful missions and businesses. For example, if they kill Chapo, each one gets a million dollars and a wrench to boot. It also creates an interesting mix of the sicarios and soldiers for the Tijuana cartel. Right. Cause you've got regular Mexican dudes coming up in the, in the game. You've got the narco juniors, the bored rich kids of the Tijuana elite, and you've got these poor gang bangers from the States all working together, which.

Sean Williams (36:29)

Yeah, I mean, that's. This is. This is basically a sales company, right? That's. That's exactly how it works.

Danny Gold (36:34)

Yeah. I mean, they must. And there must have been some. Some cultural foibles that they all mixed up and got into, but I bet it fostered a lot of understanding. For the next six months, El Chapo and the Arellano Felix brothers are just hunting each other in their own imposing men down. Well, El Mayo still remains in the shadows. Then, In May of 1993, after spending a few days hunting for Chapo and Guadalajara before giving up, a couple of Arianna Flick's brothers and a team of hitmen are heading to the airport to go back to Tijuana. While at the airport, they get word that El Chapo was actually there. Like right at the airport as well. There's an infamous crazy shootout, more like a run and gun battle in the parking lot. And the Tijuana cartel, thinking they know El Chapo's car, shoot up a white Mercury. But in the white Mercury, it isn't El Chapo, but a cardinal, the Archbishop of Guadalajara. And he's hit 14 times. And this obviously is a big deal. The Arellano Felix brothers have a secret meeting with the higher ups in the Mexican Catholic Church to try to smooth things over. But it's unclear if this actually does anything. They also send $10 million to the Mexican version of the Attorney General and have two of their men turn themselves in and try to buy them some time. David Baron Corona, the LA gangster or the California gangster, flees south to a different part of Mexico while his men return back to California. Benjamin, similarly, goes deeper into Mexico, to parts unknown. Ramon and another brother go to Santa Monica. Everyone kind of disperses into the wind.

Sean Williams (37:59)

What? I just don't get what this guy says to the Catholic prelates to try and calm tensions. Like what? What can they offer? What can they even say? Sorry, that's it, right?

Danny Gold (38:09)

$10 million.

Sean Williams (38:10)

I mean, that's actually. That's the cheat code because you got to forgive them. So that's all they can say, right?

Danny Gold (38:15)

Confession and $10 million. Dude, maybe, I don't know. I don't think it works.

Sean Williams (38:18)

Probably some other stuff.

Danny Gold (38:20)

Sometime in 1993, the eldest brother of the R F family walks down legendary boxer Julio Julio Cesar Chavez into the ring during a fight. If you don't know, he's one of Mexico's most famous ever boxers. And boxing is huge down there. So that is a big deal. Probably should have tried to have someone walk out Canelo last time he fought. Otherwise I wouldn't have lost all my goddamn money on that fight anyway.

Sean Williams (38:45)

That was a great fight.

Danny Gold (38:46)

Canelo has looked better. Side note though, I think his son, Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. Just this summer got deported from the US and arrested in Mexico for involvement with the Sinaloa cartel on crimes related to arms trafficking. Probably sending guns down there. I don't know what's going on with that case, but it definitely. I think he was arrested. I'm not sure what exactly happened. By this point, the Arellano Felix family clan, their name is starting to pop up on the US radar, which is never a good thing, Especially some of those. After some of those California gangbangers, they go back to Cali, they're caught by the police and interrogated and they give up a lot of info. They give everyone new insight into the tijuana cartel. By 1995, the DEA formed a Tijuana task force to focus solely on the Arellano Felix brothers and their organization. But like I said, they're kind of dispersed with all the attention after the cardinal killing. So things in Tijuana are getting sloppy. And with the organization, Ramon sends his sicarios to San Diego to kill the sisters of a woman he had been seeing because she had threatened to call the police. But the sisters survive and they talk to the feds. In another incident, the Tijuana cartel gets their hands on some high grade explosives and plan to use it to blow up a building in Guadalajara to take out some of Chapo's guys. But they pull a Wile E Coyote. They blow themselves up instead after it goes off prematurely. Not a Looney Tunes reference this episode. A similar screw explosion occurs in 1996 when they land the trafficking plane in the desert, but screw up the construction of the airstrip and the plane gets stuck and starts to sink. So they unload the product and try to blow up the plane to sort of destroy the evidence. But again, they screw it up. A couple of people actually die. Then they try to bury it. They screw that up and the Mexican military finds it. All of these incidents, you know, they're showing weakness, poor planning. Just all the thing a cartel in power wants to avoid. Remember earlier how I referenced the journalist named Jesus Blanc Cornelius and his book on the Tijuana cartel? Back in 1980, he founds the weekly news magazine called Zeta, which nothing to do with the Zeta's cartel. And that magazine is the first to focus solely on the Mexican underworld and is based in Tijuana. He produces endless pieces on the Ariano Felix brothers and becomes the go to journalist for anything related to the tijuana cartel. By 1997, two of his co founders have already been killed and he's the last man standing. And he does not slow down. That year he publishes a letter from the mother of one of Ramon's victims in the magazine addressing Ramon. This enrages Ramon, who sends David Barry in a hit team to take him out. The hit team ambushes him and his bodyguard and spray their car with bullets. The bodyguard's killed, but blank. Cornelius takes four shots and he's still breathing. When David Baron approaches him for the kill shot, he fires a shot. It misses, it hits the concrete and it ricochets to hit Baron in the eye, killing him instantly. The rest of the sicarios, shocked, maybe realizing the hand of God is not with them, they flee and Jesus playing Cornelius survives.

Sean Williams (41:41)

Wow, that is a genuinely incredible moment. Unreal.

Danny Gold (41:46)

I'm like, I like 90% believe it, you know. It sounds pretty insane though.

Sean Williams (41:51)

Yeah.

Danny Gold (41:51)

But yeah, yeah, it's pretty nuts.

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Danny Gold (42:53)

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That's hims.com/world Underworld for your free online visit hims.com Underworld Individual results may vary based on studies of topical and oral minoxidil and finasteride. Featured products include compounded drug products which the FBA does not approve for verify for safety, effectiveness or quality prescription required. See website for full details, restrictions and important safety information. Shortly after that incident, Ramones actually filmed on a segment of the David Letterman show, which for my money, best late night talk show host of all time. Not even close. Maybe like early Conan comes a little close. But yeah, yeah, David Letterman was the king. So they're doing this like man on the street segment, which meant a lot more before like every jerk off with an Instagram account infested our streets like a play of cockroaches. And Ramon, he's nearby rocking a Michael Jordan jersey and the guy asking the questions, he tries to mess with him and he yells, hey, hey everybody, look, it's, it's Michael Jordan. Which, you know, he's like an overweight Mexican guy with a mullet. You don't really kind of, whatever, not the best joke, but, you know, can't win them all. Ramon just kind of mumbles something in Spanish and tries to shoom away. I think the clip, it's actually on YouTube if you search for it. But it is pretty wild, right? This is in the midst of him being one of the most dangerous men in Mexico. Speaking of which, around that time Caro Payan, who we spoke about earlier. He was the guy who took Benjamin under his wing when he was a smuggler and former boss of the Tijuana cartel when it's first formed. He gets out of prison and goes back to Tijuana and he asked the brothers if he can get back in the game. Ramon promptly has him killed, which, I mean, like, come on, man, like, why do they have to be so mean and dramatic about everything? You know, let this guy live, give him like a little junior, like, assignment, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's just mean. By 1997, Ramon lands himself on the FBI top 10 list. Remember, he's actually been in the States, but as soon as that happens, he heads back to Mexico and the brothers, kind of thinking the heat from the cardinal shooting has died down, they sort of reassemble in Tijuana. They're reclaiming their control and eager to start making expansion moves. They're hardcore eyeing the Juarez cartel's territory now that the founder, Amado Carrillo Fuentes, who he recently did an episode on, dies in a botched facelift when he is trying to flee Mexico. Juarez is prime location, wide open, and they want to move on it before Sinaloa or the Gulf can get to it. If Tijuana can seize it, they then control a massive swathe of the border. Like, I think like two thirds of it, basically, if you're on that level. Elsewhere in Mexico, another narco summit is held with a whole bunch of nationwide traffickers. But the Arellano Felix brothers are not invited. And that's because they are on the agenda. They actually pretty much are the agenda. Tijuana's gotten super violent again and it's just creating too much noise for everyone. It is bad for business. And they're encroaching on the Water's territory, which El Mayo, one of the leaders of Sinaloa, wants to put a stop to. He's very close with the model Carrillo Fuentes, his brothers who have taken over Nores. And on top of that, Mayo is in a personal dispute with Ramon over an alleged $20 million Ramon claims he's owed. So Mao decides to form an alliance with the Juarez cartel to start going after the brothers. And he starts by ordering a series of high profile assassinations, including the murder of the Tijuana police chief who was on the take, obviously. And so enters a new phase of the brewing war between Sinaloa and Tijuana. And this time El Mayo, who kind of sat out the last war between Chapo and the brothers, is leading the Chars as Chapo is still locked up. And then in 2000, Benjamin gets designated under the USA Campaign act, which is never a good sign to add to their issues. Chapo escapes prison shortly after, and he's always had it out for them. And now him and Mayo can team up. In February 2002, Ramon gets information that El Mayo is going to be in a resort town in Sinaloa. He heads down there with some sicarios to take him out, which is a bold move since that's, you know, Sinaloa is the stronghold, some would say foolish. And what happens is he's pulled over by the local Mexican police, who are all on Omayo's payroll, and they get into a shootout with them and he's killed. And it's just a real bonehead move.

Sean Williams (47:50)

I'm so glad this guy is dead. Terrible person.

Danny Gold (47:54)

Not very nice at all. Like, the portrayal in narcos is like, kind of. He's just like such a weirdo psychopath. And it's a very funny portrayal.

Sean Williams (48:04)

Yeah.

Danny Gold (48:04)

A DEA format later says that Ramon was actually lured down there by Omayo, whereas others say it was just a random occurrence. And Ramon did what Ramon does because, you know, he's crazy. It is a huge blood of Tijuana. Ramon is basically the number two in the brothers hierarchy and the chief enforcer. And not only that, but at this point, he is viewed as one of the most feared killers in all of the Mexican underworld. And everyone is scared of him and, like, drawing his wrath. A few months after Ramon is killed, Benjamin, the number one, he's arrested in the suburbs of Mexico City, which deals a massive blow to the Tijuana cartel. He's replaced by a guy named Javier Arellano. Felix, he's the youngest brother. At the age of 32, he actually never wants anything to do or never wanted anything to do with the family business and had gone to business school. But now with his brothers in the family business, taking hit after hit, he's called back to Tijuana and into service. It's kind of like the Michael Corleone plot line. As long as we're doing Godfather references.

Sean Williams (48:58)

I'm actually pretty impressed. We haven't had a Sopranos one in like forever. You going off? You going off the show?

Danny Gold (49:04)

I actually.

Sean Williams (49:04)

What's going on there?

Danny Gold (49:05)

I actually just binge watched like nine episodes of season two on a hungover Sunday, let me tell you. Wow.

Sean Williams (49:13)

How many times have you seen it through now?

Danny Gold (49:15)

I've probably seen it like probably five times through all the way, but I watch clips on YouTube, like almost every. Every day. My little brother's at the point where he can, if you just name a scene, he can basically do the lines from it. Like, it's just if you're ever. If you're ever bored and want to find the actually only good place on the Internet, the Sopranos Reddit board is just like, someone will like, go in there and like, make a comment about the show that's like, really thoughtful about, like, something that happens. And that's just like 400 commenters, like doing lines from the Sopranos to make them relevant to. To the conversation. Just nonstop. It's incredible. It's the best place on the Internet.

Sean Williams (49:50)

That's good. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of going off the Internet because I just read that Harper's piece on gooning and now I know what gooning is. And then I went on the Reddit for that and now I want to kill myself.

Danny Gold (50:00)

I saw people talking about that piece. I don't feel the need to read it, but we should all get off.

Sean Williams (50:06)

It's good, but don't. It's too sad.

Danny Gold (50:08)

I don't need. I don't need that anyway. Javier, the youngest brother, he's sharp. He seems to really have a knack for it, right. He starts off strong, but the DEA is probing a new top level informant at the time who just happens to be Chapo's lawyer, who starts to cooperate, allegedly because he has an old trafficking charge hanging over him. But the thing is, he hasn't even been arrested or charged, I think in the States. In fact, he's still in Mexico. It's just that Chapo and Mayo have this brilliant idea. They're going to start feeding information to the DA about the enemies of the Sinaloa cartel. And no one is a bigger enemy at that point than Tijuana and the Arellano Felixes. The DA officials meet with the lawyer in restaurants in Mexico City, and Tijuana says the Atlantic quote, even more unusual, he came with the blessing of his boss. I met with my compadre, he might say, meaning Guzman. He sends his regards. The DEA obviously knows what's up, like they're not idiots. But the information is gold, right? It's going to help them take these guys down. So they help the Mexican authorities start bagging some top Tijuana lieutenants and clue in a number of police that actually are being targeted by the Tijuana sicario, and they in effect, save their lives. And this lawyer, he loves cooperating so much that even after DA drops the charges against them. I guess they had charged him. He still continues to give them information. Allegedly, Chapo himself had sent word that he wants to cooperate, but they pass on that. The DEA eventually learns through a whole host of informants that Javier is going to be on a deep sea fishing trip in 2006. They track his boat, and when he's in international waters, they swoop down and raid it, arresting him. Javier's arrest is kind of like the death blow to the once feared Tijuana cartel. It's already been severely weakened, but now it's the shell of its home, herself. And a different no name brother takes over. But he's arrested within two years after that arrest in 2008, there's a split in the organization into two factions. One's led by a former lieutenant and one's led by Fernando Sanchez Arellano, who is from the next generation of the clan. It's actually hard to tell whose son he is. I can't pinpoint which one has five different sources say five different siblings. But joining him atop the cartel is Enedina, who, who is the sister of Benjamin, Ramon and the brothers. And if you watch Narcos again, she actually has a central plotline. She's always been involved in the money laundering operations, but she takes a bigger role in cartel business when Benjamin gets arrested. And now with the last brother getting arrested in 2008, she steps up even bigger. She's said to be like strictly business, much different than her brothers, not a fan of psychotic violence, actually looking to make alliances. So when this rogue lieutenant starts getting backing from the Sinaloa cartel and Adina forms alliance with the Belch and Leyva brothers again, we've talked about them before. They're a powerful faction in the Sinaloa cartel who end up breaking away from them and then battling El Chapo and El Mayo. So Enedina teams up with them and it seems that paid off when in 2010, the rogue lieutenant gets arrested, leaving her faction in total control of the Tijuana cartel. Granted, it's in a much weaker state. No more national cartel, but still doing business. There is still one brother left remaining that is out of jail. He's the oldest, the one that walked out, the boxer Julio Cesar Chavez to the ring. Got arrested after the cardinal killing. He's out of prison though, and at this point, but it's never really been a big player in the cartel. Nevertheless, in 2013, he's killed by an assassin dressed up as a clown. They seem to love that, you know, you know, like a birthday clown with the red nose and everything. He gets killed by a clown at his birthday party in Cabo, which is a brutal way to go out. Or. Or is it kind of an awesome way to go out?

Sean Williams (53:39)

The last thing you see is a clown. I'm not sure. And it's bad. Yeah.

Danny Gold (53:43)

Fernando, the second generation leader. He gets arrested in 2014, leaving Enedina as the sole top dog in the Tijuana cartel, which is the first woman leading of a major modern Mexican drug cartel. You know, the mid 2010s, it was a very progressive era. You had female cartel bosses. Sean was going by they them. It was just a wild time out there.

Sean Williams (54:03)

It was Zay Zim, actually. And I had a walking stick and pink hair, actually. This is the kind of chat that would get us tons more listeners.

Danny Gold (54:09)

Yeah, definitely.

Sean Williams (54:11)

Yeah. Actually, we mentioned at Adina on a show we did with Deborah Bonello, who wrote the book Narcis a few years ago, I think I was even when I was living in Berlin, it was a while ago, but really fascinating show on a lot of female narcos in the world.

Danny Gold (54:27)

Yeah. What did they say? Do you remember anything that came across about her?

Sean Williams (54:31)

Give me about an hour and ten minutes, Danny, and I'll just go back and figure that all out for you.

Danny Gold (54:38)

Well, what we know about Anadina is that she had longtime contacts with the Colombian cartels. Not only that, but also a ton of connections still with the political and business elite of Tijuana, despite all the drama her brothers had brought. Remember, she handles the money aspects, right? So she's often intertwined with all of them. Many of them were in on it in one way or another. Laundering, financing, donations, going in on businesses together. At their peak, Tijuana was bringing in like billions of dollars a year. And the sophisticated money laundering investigations, they weren't quite there yet, as we learned from the Inside the cartel. Manny Suarez episode with Ian Frisch and of course the Arellano Felixes own a ton of businesses and properties around Tijuana. In 2016, the organization rebrands as Cartel Tijuana Nueva Generacion and aligns itself with the Jalisco New Generation Cartel and the Belch and Leyva organization to create an anti Sinaloa allowance. But it does not last long. Things have kind of been quiet on that front for a while now. I think the Tijuana cartel is a small kind of local faction. They're not Tijuana itself. The city isn't controlled by one cartel anymore. A lot of them have A presence there. So Enedina, I think is still around, still said to be playing a role in a much smaller version of the Tijuana cartel and somewhat there. But you don't really see them in the news that much. At least I wasn't able to find much. And that's the story of the Tijuana cartel and the Arellano Felix brothers and sister.

Sean Williams (56:02)

Yeah. Another lovely tale of psychopaths, mass murderers and state corruption, which we love to see. I just want to do a quick shout out before we go to my pal Greg Brown, who's actually running seven marathons in seven days for a men's mental health charity here in NZ. I did 10 miles with him this morning just before we recorded the show, and I worked out that that is 1/18 of what he is doing, which is insane. I'm going to put a link to his fundraising page if anyone can sleep a couple of bucks because he's a cool guy. But yeah, I think seven marathons, seven days.

Danny Gold (56:33)

Yeah. Why? I guess there is money left to lie. I had, I think a couple corrections. One was that a couple people wrote in after our episode on the State Line Mob that I think Southern cops, like state Line jurisdiction was pretty much taken seriously back then, is what they were telling me.

Sean Williams (56:49)

Huh.

Danny Gold (56:49)

Which is interesting.

Sean Williams (56:50)

Like it was between two borders.

Danny Gold (56:54)

It was very serious. I think our homie Rex, who we've hung out with in New York, who's a lawyer too, said about that question that it would be where the person got hit would be the jurisdiction if, like you're on one side and you throw a pint at someone on the other side.

Sean Williams (57:06)

Ah. What else interesting.

Danny Gold (57:09)

Someone corrected me on like Juke Jocks. Juke joint did not mean that it had just had a jukebox. There was like a different, a different name for it. I feel like that was an email that we got, but we definitely want to correct the record on that. But yeah, it was, it was cool. Anyway, patreon.com podcast. What else did I say? Yeah, $5 a month. You actually get an ad free. $3 a month too. So definitely sign up for that. And thank you guys again for joining us. We really appreciate all the love. And so, yeah, cheers.

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