The Underworld Podcast: "War in Venezuela?!?! Narcoterrorism, Maduro and Trump"

Date: December 2, 2025
Hosts: Sean Williams & Danny Gold
Theme:
A deep dive into Venezuela’s current status as a center of alleged narco-terrorism, the U.S. military’s controversial interventions, the political/economic power struggles behind the headlines, and the real role of criminal groups like the Tren de Aragua and the infamous “Cartel of the Suns.” The hosts challenge popular narratives and untangle the complex web of crime, politics, and international interests driving conflict between the U.S. and Venezuela.

Episode Overview

The episode opens with a dramatic depiction of recent U.S. military strikes against alleged Venezuelan narco-traffickers, referencing Operation Southern Spear and the political firestorm around allegations that the Maduro regime is facilitating drug smuggling into the U.S. Through rich storytelling, historical context, and expert interviews, the hosts dissect key questions:

• Is Venezuela the epicenter of the fentanyl crisis?
• What is the real nature of the “Cartel of the Suns”?
• Are current U.S. actions about drugs, oil, or something deeper?
• Who are the underworld players shaping Venezuela’s fate?

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Current Crisis: U.S. Military Strikes and Operation Southern Spear

• Dramatic incident recounted: A speedboat, likely ferrying drugs or migrants from Venezuela to Trinidad, is destroyed by a U.S. drone/airstrike. Everyone aboard is killed ([00:30]–[03:30]).
  • Trinidad’s prime minister supports violent action against traffickers, while Venezuela mourns the dead. Trump boasts about the kinetic strike on Truce Social ([03:00]).
• These strikes (21 in total) are dubbed "Operation Southern Spear"—echoing Cold War-era U.S. counter-narcotics interventions ([04:30]).

2. The Alleged “Cartel of the Suns” – Myth or Reality?

• Origins: Coined in 1993 after military anti-narcotics officers with sun insignias (epaulettes) were implicated in trafficking ([19:23]–[21:05]).
• Nature:
  • More of a loose shorthand for systemic corruption in Venezuelan military and government than a true, hierarchical cartel ([44:12], [45:25]).
  • Michael Palberg, political science professor, explains:

    "No one claims that it is an actual cartel as we understand the term, as in a unified criminal organization. It is a form of journalistic shorthand to describe a phenomenon which is real, which is corruption within the Venezuelan government and specifically the Venezuelan military..." ([44:12])

  • Expert from Caracas (anonymized):

    "I cannot deny... many members of the military and even civilian government... are involved in drug trafficking. But... it happens all over Latin America... It basically just means military people involved in drug trafficking." ([39:04])

• International Perspective: Both the DEA and UNODC don’t treat the Cartel of the Suns as an actual cartel in their official reports ([39:04]).

3. History of U.S. & Venezuelan State Collusion in Drug Trafficking

• 1990s precedent:
  • The CIA, with Venezuela’s National Guard, attempted to infiltrate Colombian cartels by running cocaine into the U.S.—resulted in significant amounts reaching the streets ([13:17]–[19:23]).
  • Former DEA chief Robert Bonner on 60 Minutes:

    "A ton of cocaine was smuggled into the United States... by the Venezuelan National Guard... in cooperation with the CIA... It's called drug smuggling." ([13:17]–[15:00])

• Consequences: This revealed deep-seated corruption and set the stage for decades of military involvement in trafficking.

4. Changing Drug Routes and the Real Numbers

• Changing cocaine corridors: Since 2019, most U.S.-bound cocaine bypasses Venezuela ([33:08]).
  • DEA report: 8% of U.S. cocaine passes through Venezuela/eastern Caribbean routes; the dominant path is now from Ecuador/Colombia via the Pacific ([34:04], [49:32]).
  • Most Venezuelan-trafficked cocaine heads to Europe, not the U.S. ([35:43], [49:32]).
  • Fentanyl myth: No evidence Venezuela is a major fentanyl source—fentanyl is synthesized in Mexico/U.S. from Chinese precursors ([49:32]).
  • Michael Palberg:

    "Fentanyl famously does not come from Venezuela... The fentanyl that makes it to the US primarily goes through Mexico... Increasingly, it's just being made in the United States itself." ([49:32])

5. Major Gangs: The Tren de Aragua & Other Criminal Networks

• Tren de Aragua:
  • Originated in Venezuela’s Aragua state/prisons; now the country’s most powerful gang ([52:31], [57:35]).
  • Focus on people smuggling, sexual exploitation, and some drug trade, but not a global narco-empire ([56:35], [57:35]).
  • Has significant reach into Latin America, including Chile, where it’s suspected in high-profile killings ([58:03]).
  • Phil Gunson, International Crisis Group:

    "Tren de Aragua is a real criminal organization... There have been links, yes, between the government and the Trendarawa. Not... that Maduro is the head of it... but that, you know, it's been useful to the government..." ([57:35])

• People Smuggling Boom: Catastrophic economic conditions and Maduro regime repression have forced 8 million Venezuelans to flee, fueling massive people-smuggling networks ([48:00]).
  • Many “narco boats” are likely carrying desperate migrants, not drugs—a crucial point regarding the U.S. strikes ([62:33], [62:56]).
  • Phil Gunson:

    "Why were there 11 people on that boat?... The rest... were probably migrants... There was a thriving traffic in people smuggling between the Venezuelan coast and places like Trinidad..." ([62:56])

6. Political Intrigue: Drugs, Oil, and U.S. Policy

• Sanction chess, oil interests, and regime change:
  • Power struggle in the Trump administration: Marco Rubio (anti-communist regime change hawk) vs. Richard Grenell (more pragmatic, favors oil business deals; supports Chevron carve-outs) ([65:42]–[69:23]).
  • U.S. sanctions hobble Venezuelan economy, but U.S. oil companies like Chevron still negotiate exceptions ([68:30]).
  • The designation of "narco-terrorist" helps justify military action, sanctions, and deportations—both for ideological and resource-access reasons ([69:35], [74:07]).
  • Rubio’s stance: Driven by deep-rooted anti-communism and targeting of Cuban/Venezuelan regimes, rather than oil greed alone ([70:17], [70:41]).
  • Reality check:
    • Little evidence that U.S. goals are being achieved or that Venezuela is central to the actual global drug flow.
    • Clever political brandishing: Framing actions as part of a “war on drugs” is politically attractive, especially with U.S. overdose deaths falling, regardless of real causation ([74:07]).
    • Sean Williams:

      "Even if this narrative falls apart, Trump can say, hey, I stopped all these boats and fent deaths are down. So it's kind of a darkly genius way to approach the issue." ([75:02])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the absurdity of “cartel” labels:

  “No one claims that it is an actual cartel as we understand the term... It is a form of journalistic shorthand…” – Michael Palberg ([44:12])

• Corruption at the Core:

  “It basically just means military people involved in drug trafficking.” – Anonymous Venezuelan expert ([39:04])

• On U.S. military strikes:

  “If you were loading a boat with high value cocaine, why would you also have almost a dozen people on board? Doesn’t check out.” – Sean ([62:33]) “It seems entirely plausible this was about smuggling migrants, maybe not smuggling drugs at all, and certainly not fentanyl.” – Phil Gunson ([62:56])

• On State-Gang Relations:

  “There have been links... not in the sense that Maduro is the head... but that it’s been useful to the government at some points.” – Phil Gunson ([57:35])

• Key Data:
  “Fentanyl famously does not come from Venezuela…” – Michael Palberg ([49:32])

• Political Realism:

  “Narco terrorist designation was the best thing. And if you know the details of it, it's just bullshit. But, yeah, Rubio was able to get Trump from saying, I just want the oil to saying, yeah, okay, get rid of the guy and give me the oil.” – Anonymous DC Insider ([69:35])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Dramatic opening: U.S. drone strike on boat: [00:30]–[03:30]
• Background on the “Cartel of the Suns”: [19:23]–[21:05], [44:12], [45:25]
• CIA & National Guard drug fiasco: [13:17]–[19:23]
• Changing drug trafficking routes/data: [33:08], [34:04], [35:43], [49:32]
• Discussion of U.S. military and sanctions escalation: [39:04]–[49:32]
• Explainer on Trendergiano/Tren de Aragua: [52:31]–[57:35]
• Expert insights (Palberg & Gunson): [44:12], [49:32], [57:35], [62:56]
• People smuggling vs. narco trafficking: [62:33]–[64:14]
• White House power struggle over Venezuela – Rubio vs. Grenell: [65:42]–[69:35]
• Closing thought on political motivations and the “war on drugs”: [74:07]–[75:25]

Final Thoughts & Tone

The hosts maintain a sardonic, evidence-driven tone—debunking sensationalist claims while acknowledging the real, acute violence and corruption wracking Venezuela. They emphasize the complexity of labeling criminal activity and state collusion, and caution against simplistic drug war narratives.

Rather than a land of “cartels” exporting mass death to the U.S., Venezuela is painted as a country devastated by corruption, economic mismanagement, opportunistic criminal groups, and hi-jacked as a political football among American power players.

Useful For:

• Getting behind the headlines on U.S.-Venezuela tensions
• Understanding the real structure (or lack thereof) of Venezuelan narco networks
• Seeing how U.S. domestic politics and oil interests intersect with international crime narratives
• Appreciating how often official narratives diverge from on-the-ground realities

For more resources, bonus content, and reading lists, listeners are encouraged to check out the show’s Patreon and website.