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- [00:01]
A
Hey, it's Wes. So it's been about four months since Carol and I finished the first season of the Unforgotten the Labor Day Ghost about the murder of Shelly salter Watkins in 1993. We're still digging, talking to people, tracking down leads. Some of the things that we've learned have given us more hope that justice can still be served. But we've also run into some things that just don't seem to add up.
- [00:23]
B
We're going to get into all that.
- [00:24]
A
Today in the first of two bonus episodes coming out this week and next. I do want to mention really quickly that we're doing things a little differently this time. Carol and I are just going to sit down and talk everything out. A lot of today's conversation has to do with the DNA recovered from all the materials found with Shelley's body when.
- [00:44]
B
She was pulled out of the Trinity.
- [00:45]
A
River back in 93. The discovery of that DNA from an unknown male first came up in chapter eight of the podcast. We have a few other updates you won't want to miss. Stuff about the sheriff's office that's been leading the investigation. A former Texas Ranger who was heavily involved. And also Jake Felt, the former son in law of Jerry Mack Watkins. Jerry Mack, I'm sure you remember, is the chief suspect in the case. And as we've mentioned throughout the podcast, he's never been charged with any crime. He's innocent until proven guilty. All right, let's get started.
- [01:25]
C
Hello again, I'm Carol Dawson.
- [01:27]
A
And I'm Wes Ferguson.
- [01:28]
C
This is a bonus follow up episode of Things we have Learned since the conclusion of season one of the the Labor Day Ghost about the unresolved murder of Shelly Watkins in Corsicana, Texas.
- [01:42]
B
And we're going to be talking about the DNA that was discovered with the evidence found with her body. So as we reported in the podcast, in 2019, the the Sheriff's office took all the materials that were found with Shelly's body and sent them off for testing. They found the DNA profile of an unknown male that was in those materials. And then I guess it would have been spring 2023. So almost a year and a half ago that you had your interview with Sheriff Hillhouse.
- [02:13]
C
That's correct. So today is April 14, Friday. I'm talking with Sheriff Bodie Hillhouse in Athens, Texas, Sheriff of Henderson County.
- [02:26]
D
We basically gathered up everything we had and just took it to California and said, hey, can y' all go through this and see if you can find any touch DNA or any type of DNA that wasn't available at that time. Technology's changed dramatically. We took the stuff out to the lab. We found out we had a possible profile, male profile.
- [02:47]
B
And that's when he told you that he was looking at working with a genetic genealogist to study that DNA, you know, put it into a family tree and see if. If she could find kinship. Right. Can you explain that in a better way than I just did.
- [03:04]
C
He told me that he had turned that DNA profile, which did not match Jerry Mack himself or any members of the Watkins family, over to a genetic genealogist who had done some outstanding work in other cases and who was based in Denton, Texas, but had roots in Navarro County. So, therefore, she was quite interested in this case. And he was expecting to hear from her after she had had time to run enough research and comparison and find a family tree that would indicate the identity of. Of this particular person.
- [03:49]
E
Yeah.
- [03:50]
B
So Sheriff Hillhouse said that he was, you know, trying to work with this genetic genealogist. And then I think it was, you know, maybe six months later, I reached out to the genetic genealogist company asking for an update. And it took a long time, but at some point, I finally heard back from her spokesman who said that she was not working on this case. She wasn't even familiar with it, which was pretty flooring.
- [04:16]
C
Isn't that a revelation?
- [04:17]
E
Yeah.
- [04:18]
C
Bodie Hillhouse did not specify her name to me. He just told me her location and that she was prominent, well known as a genetic genealogist, and that she had a little company there. Well, of course, she is the genealogist who lives in Denton.
- [04:36]
E
Right.
- [04:36]
C
So there was no question about her identity at the time. I had asked him for her name, and he said he couldn't quite remember it, but that he would email it to me. And I never got another email from Bodie again. That was it. He also, at the time, had assured me that he would connect me with his mentor and former boss, Texas Ranger and then Sheriff Ray Nutt, who had always presented himself as very dedicated to pursuing this case and pursuing this investigation and solving it. And Bode's words to me were, this case has always stuck in Ray's craw. And when I asked him if it was still an open investigation and he was going to pursue it, he said, yes. I owe it to Ray. Those were his words. Now, it's been really interesting to me that we have received absolutely no contact or word from Ray Nut ever since. And that was, as I said, the last conversation or communication of any kind that I have received. From Bodie Hill House.
- [05:58]
E
Yeah.
- [05:58]
B
And, you know, and Ray Nutt. I mean, he took out an ad in the local newspapers on the anniversary of Shelley's death. Every year, he gave some interviews to local newspapers about her case. He participated in an oral history project with the Texas Ranger Museum, where he mentioned this case in broad terms. But he has never responded to any of our requests for an interview. I've actually exchanged a lot of text messages with his wife, trying to. Or hoping that she could convince him to talk to me, but that has not gone anywhere either. So around the time that our last episode came out, I reached out to a forensic science company called Othram in the Woodlands, and they are establishing themselves as the world's premier forensic investigative company. They've partnered with, I think, probably hundreds or thousands of law enforcement offices across the nation and across the world. And here in Texas, they've helped solve thousands of crimes over the past six years that they've been in operation. And they have the world's most extensive genealogical database. So they would be able to take this DNA profile of the unknown male, plug it into their database, and if anybody's gonna find a relative on the family tree of this DNA, it would be Othram. So I reached out to the founder of the company and told him what we were working on, and he immediately responded and said, tell the sheriff to get in touch. I'm happy to help any way I can. I mean, this is. It felt like such a huge break that this company, with such deep resources and expertise in this field, would be willing to help the sheriff's office, which has been sitting on this DNA for five years and had not had any success doing this before. So we let the sheriff's investigator know. And then what? Silence for weeks.
- [08:10]
C
Oh, utter silence for weeks. I was in communication for a while with the investigator who was newly appointed to the case after the previous investigator had moved on to a different community and a different job. That investigator in Athens is named Victor Paris. And for a little while, Victor and I exchanged phone calls. He responded in ways that his boss, Bodie Hill House, would not and assured me, oh, yes, the case is still ongoing. It's under investigation. And I offered Othram services to him because Bodie Hillhouse was not responding to us at all. And I said, I want him to know that Othram is very interested in this case. They are very eager to help in any way they can. And they have even said that they would help arrange funding for the work to be done so that the taxpayers of Henderson county would not bear any burden financially for this research to be done. And things went on from there. Shall I go ahead and tell you what happened?
- [09:32]
B
Well, when the word finally came back, what did Investigator Paris say?
- [09:38]
C
Well, this is pertinent to the next segment of the story.
- [09:42]
B
Okay, yeah, go for it.
- [09:44]
C
The next segment of the story is not just about the touch DNA that was discovered in 2019 by the California lab. The next segment has to do with someone who very helpfully volunteered to secure evidence in Corsicana of the person who has long, by a number of people, been suspected of aiding and abetting the disposal of Shelly Watkins body. Now, the sheriff's office did not have this person's DNA and had no probable cause to acquire it, and they needed probable cause in order to issue a warrant. However, I had been advised both by the former assistant district attorney in Henderson county, who had been directly involved with the case, and with another law enforcement enforcement officer, shall we say, high up in law enforcement echelons in Corsicana itself, off the record, that all you need to do is go get it yourself. And if you can prove chain of custody for that piece of evidence, then it is a valid resource for criminal procedure.
- [11:15]
B
Yeah. Because, I mean, you always hear about cops that can go rifling through your garbage if. When you set it out to the curb, they don't need a warrant to do that. That is perfectly legal. If someone else gives them this evidence that is also legal and acceptable for them to take.
- [11:33]
C
That's correct. And the way chain of custody is proven is that the person acquiring it makes sure that there is a camera going on and that it's videotaped, and that the. The object with DNA on it, whatever it is, is then carefully deposited without anybody else touching it in a Ziploc bag. And all of that is visible on camera. And then it is labeled, it's marked whatever is necessary, and it is then sent or retrieved by law enforcement. That's it. And a citizen, any citizen, can do this.
- [12:15]
B
And so either you alerted Investigator Paris, or this citizen who collected the potential evidence alerted him, and then he came right over and collected it.
- [12:25]
C
I alerted him, okay. I contacted him. I said, this has been done by proper procedure. There is camera evidence of the chain of custody. All of that is proven and provable in court. Can you please go over to Corsicana and collect this evidence if you really are interested in solving this case? So he went the next day and he collected it, and he took it back to Athens to the Henderson County Sheriff's Office, and After that, I was assured by him it had been collected. So I sat back and waited and waited and waited.
- [13:11]
B
Because we're like, it's going to take just a few days to test the DNA. That's a quick process.
- [13:17]
C
Well, not only that, but if they didn't want to send it to Othram, they have a lot of other options. Finally, I contacted Victor Paris and said, look, Othram is extending this interest and functionality to you guys. Do you want to take advantage of it? It's right there waiting. You know, I'm assuming you've already sent this off and I'm hoping you sent it to Othram. At which point Victor Paris sort of chuckled and said, well, haven't sent it anywhere off yet. And I said, what? Because by then two or three weeks had gone by. And he said, no, the sheriff says he doesn't want us to send it to Othram, that we're going to send it somewhere else. And I said, and you haven't sent it anywhere yet? And he said, no, not yet. I'm waiting for word from Sheriff Hillhouse as to where to send it. And I said, right, okay, I will be checking with you. And the next time I spoke with him, it still had or communicated with him, it still had not been sent off. And I was shocked, quite frankly, because why in the world would they not send it off somewhere if just to eliminate this person as a suspect? Consequently, I became very frustrated. I let the sheriff's office know and I let Victor Paris know that there is a lot of media attention interested.
- [14:58]
F
In this case, which there is, and.
- [15:01]
C
You and I can cover that later.
- [15:04]
F
But I let him know that there were several big media entities who wanted to know what was happening with this case.
- [15:15]
C
And if they were not following up.
- [15:17]
F
With this, they were going to look kind of foolish. But on the other hand, if they went ahead and followed up with it, it would at least prove that they had an interest in continuing the investigation and they could be local heroes. Nothing, zero, zip. Absolute crickets.
- [15:39]
B
And also, in one of those conversations or communications with Investigator Paris, he said, well, the sheriff is now trying to find that genetic genealogist. He had not actually done that over the past year and a half.
- [15:55]
C
Exactly.
- [15:55]
B
And he also doesn't want to work with Othram, the company that everybody's working with, for whatever reason.
- [16:02]
C
And that. And by the way, Othram helped establish the identity of the Golden State Killer. That's huge. I mean, that is like a landmark in criminology techniques. So who wouldn't want to work with them. Yeah, it's amazing, just amazing.
- [16:18]
B
You know, throughout this process, I, you know, we're, we're base basing everything on, on the original reporting we've done, only on documents, only on things that people have told us. So I've tried to restrain from any speculation, but we still just don't understand why the sheriff has shown this pattern of inaction, paralysis of paralysis of briefly saying, yeah, we're doing this, and then a year might go by where he's done nothing.
- [16:53]
C
Well, you and I have both speculated together privately about the three possible options as to what could account for that behavior. I'm not going to stipulate those in the podcast, but I think that the listeners can listen to the facts that we're presenting here and wind up drawing their own conclusions.
- [17:18]
B
If nothing else. If any of you know Sheriff Hillhouse or if you live in Henderson county, so you're his constituent, maybe if you could get through to him and just find out what's going on, I would really love to know. At this point, I just is so baffling to me that he has all this, all these people that are like asking for updates, trying to help, and we're all being stonewalled.
- [17:48]
C
And we're not the only ones being stonewalled. Let me give you an example. There is a producer at ABC 2020 who really wants to make a two hour documentary special about this case. And you and I have met with her. She spent an entire day in Athens a few weeks ago. You know, this is a New York person, but she had gone to Athens specifically to try to speak with Sheriff Bodie Hillhouse, she not only encountered complete and utter stonewalling from him to the point that he would not even meet with her the multiple times she went to his office, come out and greet her, shake her hand and say, I'm sorry, this is an ongoing case, an ongoing investigation, so I can't discuss it with you, but thank you for your interest. He also instructed Investigator Paris, who, by the way, has me every time I try to call him on an instant direct to voicemail, direct to voicemail. I'm blocked by Investigator Paris now, who.
- [19:13]
F
Has been instructed by Bodie Hillhouse not.
- [19:18]
C
To talk with anybody at all about.
- [19:20]
F
This case and not to come out of his office even to say hello.
- [19:27]
C
To this particular producer and explain the same thing.
- [19:31]
F
Nothing. And she spent the entire day under those circumstances. She finally had a chance to speak.
- [19:38]
C
With at least one functionary in Henderson.
- [19:42]
F
County, and that was the current DA but the conversation they had, which ensued after she had gone to the DA's office under my advice, I had suggested, look, go visit with the da. You know, she at least might be receptive, she might at least greet you. She arrived at that office and was immediately presented with a letter that said, to whom it may concern, we do not discuss any ongoing investigations with anyone. She had, obviously, the DA been instructed by Bode Hillhouse that that was going to be the policy and that that's what she needed to do as a result of my letting them know that there was major media attention interested in this case. Consequently, she explained that she did not want to put anything on the record, but that she just wanted to meet the DA, have a conversation. At which point the DA's secretary, who was very friendly and very cooperative and kind and welcoming, said, oh, okay, let me see what I can arrange. The producer left the DA's office until she got a text from the secretary saying, come back, she'll talk with you. They had a very cordial conversation. The DA was very friendly and explained that she would like to be cooperative, but at this stage that she could not. But that, yes, it was an ongoing investigation as she understood it.
- [21:26]
B
As she understood it.
- [21:27]
F
Uh huh.
- [21:29]
B
So.
- [21:33]
C
This producer was in touch with me throughout the day, both by text and by telephone. And she told me that she has never in her career covering cases all the way across the United States encountered such as, and I quote her words, a steel defense wall. She's never been barricaded like this on any case ever before.
- [22:02]
E
Yeah.
- [22:03]
C
So what does that tell you?
- [22:12]
B
So when we finished the season, we ended on a really optimistic note because we knew those things were being put in motion. We knew that there was this physical potential, physical evidence being collected and being delivered to the sheriff's office. We knew that this forensic genealogy company was standing ready to help with the case. And then because of all the stonewalling from the sheriff's office, we thought, well, maybe it's because they're about to break the case on their own. They don't want us to come in and mess things up because maybe they have something else going on. You just need to put faith in the system, let them do their investigation and not interfere. But months have gone by. Just to be safe. I put in an open records request for the county to see if the sheriff had issued any new warrants in the case over the past year. They have not. As far as we know, it looks like inaction or if nothing else, nothing that has panned out at all.
- [23:23]
C
Well, one thing we did learn throughout this process, and which excited the, finally, the action on the part of my volunteer who volunteered to help acquire this DNA, was that apparently the person to whom the DNA belonged had been doing a lot of, shall we say, talking under the influence in Corsicana itself about Shelley's murder. It was clear that this had been preying on his mind for a very, very, very, very long time. So this person was talking about. We heard through other people, and, you know, it's other people just saying what they have heard or what they have been told.
- [24:17]
B
It's hearsay, so it's not admissible, but it is certainly worth our efforts to look into it further.
- [24:24]
C
Absolutely, absolutely. And by this hearsay, we understood that there's been a lot of referencing the. The probability by this same person that he did assist in the disposal of Shelley's body, which is why it was really important to gain the confirmation or negation of this DNA connected to the touch DNA one way or the other. What can it hurt right now? Another thing that had come up with this person was that this person had been boasting to a room full of people or commenting to a room full.
- [25:18]
F
Of people, I should say, a lot of ear witnesses, that he was surprised to find that he had a very large sum of money in his bank account that he had not known was there.
- [25:31]
B
Wasn't it like 600 grand?
- [25:33]
C
Yes.
- [25:34]
E
Yeah.
- [25:35]
C
Yes. And he had been marveling openly in a public place where there were listeners who overheard this, that all of a sudden he had all this money. He was like, I don't even know how that got there now, whether he's just been too much under the influence through the years to have noticed that he has accrued that much in his own bank account. In which case, I hope he's reported it to the irs, because if he hasn't, that would be kind of weird. But this all occurred after the episode in which we had talked about the touch DNA that the sheriff's office had acquired. And all of a sudden he was in this public place saying, I've got a bunch of money that I didn't know I had. It's like, oh, do you now? And by the way, this was right around the time of the anniversary of Shelley's death, Labor Day, which coincided with our final episode of season one.
- [26:51]
B
Timing.
- [26:52]
C
This case is so multi layered. It is so complex and multilayered, and there are just so many different interesting factors that all intersect, that all tie in together, and it's just so much more layered than A lot of other murder cases that get investigated. You know, a young woman is. Her body is found, she's found dead, and then eventually her murder gets traced by law enforcement or Internet sleuths or whoever to, oh, well, it turned out it was her drugged up boyfriend or his confrere. This is not like that. This is a completely very different kind of gothic story. One of the things that I've found really interesting is how, as you yourself have put it, Wes, this story has legs. You know, it just doesn't die. And there are so many people who have gotten interested in it and then gotten really intrigued by it and fascinated by it, and I am glad to say, outraged by it because of the clear lack of justice. You know, it just has not been resolved in ways that it could have been. And it could have been pursued a long time ago. And it didn't get pursued. And it didn't get pursued because. And this, this has just really bothered me more and more as we have focused on this case because law enforcement chose to sacrifice the murder case to the pursuit of a corrupt political opponent official, the DA who said, who was involved in the bribery scheme that wiped out the pursuit of the case at the time, and the fact that that got switched over to focus on that rather than the murder case itself and was the reason that the trial itself got canceled at the time has really bothered me more and more.
- [29:27]
F
Because as our FBI informants and interviewees told us during the course of the podcast, they were warned once the official's crime was brought to their attention and investigation, that Jerry Mack Watkins would cooperate with them if they would not discuss anything about the murder case at all. And as one of those wonderful FBI former agents told us, he was always really convinced that, oh, yeah, he did it. So that that choice has really, really bugged me more and more. The more I have, you know, waited deeply into this case. I mean, it's been consuming me now for years.
- [30:19]
E
Yeah, yeah.
- [30:20]
B
It's really staggering to see where law enforcement places its priorities.
- [30:26]
C
Yeah. And, you know, as far as former Texas Ranger and then Sheriff Ray Nutt is concerned, I really admire the dedication that he professed publicly in his earnestness to solve this case. But why didn't he do it? He had plenty of opportunities to keep going. I know he did. And then he not only made the decision, whatever lip service he gave, you know, if you want to know what somebody wants, look at what they're doing. That's all you need to do. Whatever they say. If they say, oh, no, I have to do this out of duty. No, it's because you want to fulfill your duty. That's what you want. So all I'm saying is put your money where your mouth is. So the fact that he has, after his retirement in 2016, completely shut down any commentary, any further desire, expressed desire that this should have been handled, this needs to go ahead and get resolved. Anything. And also his utter refusal to talk with us or anybody else about it, I find to be odd. Just odd.
- [31:55]
B
Yeah, it's certainly been counterproductive to our efforts to tell the story and get as much attention as possible to the injustice of this case.
- [32:04]
C
Yep. And I will add one more time that Sheriff Bodie Hillhouse was very proud to tell me that Ray had been his. Ray Nutt had been his mentor and he had been Ray's deputy sheriff, and that therefore he wanted to continue Ray's work. However, both of them seem to have a bad case of paralysis. Just saying.
- [32:32]
E
Oh.
- [32:32]
B
Do you mind if I ask you a question?
- [32:34]
F
Oh, no.
- [32:37]
E
We.
- [32:39]
B
We interviewed Jake Felt, the soon to be former son in law of Jerry Mack Watkins, in our ninth episode of the podcast. It was one of the most riveting and heartfelt episodes, I think. Any updates on the status of his divorce proceedings with Ashley?
- [32:57]
C
Yes, as of a week ago, that divorce settlement was reached and Jake and Ashley are no longer officially married. As I understand it now, you know, Ashley is the elder daughter of the two daughters that Shelly Watkins had with Jerrie Mack Watkins. And Ashley was four and about to turn five when her mother was murdered. She turned five within six weeks of Shelley's murder, and her younger sister Lane was a year and a half old. And these girls have grown up in the shelter of their father and stepmother, their stepmother being Kay Watkins, who was previously Kay Bryant and who got a divorce after Jerry's indictment got quashed and.
- [33:59]
F
He was left in legal limbo about this case.
- [34:03]
C
She got a divorce from her husband and married Jerry. Now, it was interesting, especially because she, as I'll just remind our listeners, had always been declared as one of Shelley's very closest friends and had made herself, from what I have understood from direct witnesses, conspicuous within Jerry's and Shelley's intimate circle and had also been observed by.
- [34:35]
F
At least one eyewitness in having an intimate moment or relationship with Jerry himself while Shelley was still very much alive. So Ashley and Lane have grown up within the shadow of their mother's murder, but have always been told by their father and stepmother that, of course, some stranger did this to their mother and that of course, their father is completely innocent of any charges. You know, one of the things, Wes, that I want to comment on and that others have commented on so frequently is that if you're innocent of a murder, wouldn't you want to do anything and everything possible, both legally and investigatively, to find out, number one, who did do it, especially if you've got the money to back you up and back those investigations up, and number two, to have your day in court to get declared innocent instead. What Jerry Mack Watkins has done through the years is the exact opposite. It's clear that he has never wanted a day in court. It's clear that he has preferred, or it looks like it appears that he has preferred to live in this legal limbo.
- [36:04]
C
One of the things I want to remark on is just how many people we have talked with throughout this process who have remained off the record. And therefore, we cannot recount the information that they have given us because we're not willing to do that ever with anybody unless they will come forward and be upfront and state their names, et.
- [36:29]
B
Cetera, and give us permission and give.
- [36:31]
C
Us permission to cite the information that they have passed on to us. But some of the things we have been told have been from direct witnesses. I've been told a great deal of material from various people who had direct experience of the things they wanted to share. And I would just like to say that one of the things I have found most disturbing has been accounts from other people. And of course, I can't cite those of, shall we say, damage that they have experienced directly in the 30 years since Shelly Watkins murder that the alleged murder has had the opportunity to create in their lives. And it's for that reason that I think it's important to mention this and important to note that when cases go unresolved, especially this kind of murder case, where there are so many questions and there are so many pointers and circumstantial evidence that was presented in the first place. It gives people opportunities. As long as everything hangs fire, as long as there is a legal limbo, it gives people opportunities to continue damage. And this is not only a case.
- [38:13]
F
That'S very much emblematic of. Of violence against women, but it also demonstrates how that damage just keeps spreading and spreading and spreading and like the concentric circles in water when you throw in a stone. And that has been possible throughout this. The decades since this happened.
- [38:38]
B
Well said. Well, that concludes our bonus episode. We're actually going to be back next week answering a lot of questions that you've had after listening to the podcast, a lot of people were asking about Jerry Mack's other child, the son from his previous relationship. There were a ton of rumors this fall that the Watkins residence was put up for sale. What's the main reason this case hasn't been reopened? That's next time.
- [39:09]
A
The Unforgotten is a Free Range production. Season one, the Labor Day Ghost is created, written and hosted by Carol Dawson and me, Wes Ferguson. I'm the executive producer at Free Range. Our theme song, ghost, was written and recorded by Corsicana's own Will Mechatron Jones. Thank you for listening and see you next week.