12. Your Questions, Answered

Summary

The Unforgotten: Episode 12 - "Your Questions, Answered"

Release Date: January 20, 2025
Host/Authors: Carol Dawson and Wes Ferguson
Description: In this bonus episode of Season 1, "The Labor Day Ghost," Carol Dawson and Wes Ferguson address listener questions surrounding the unresolved murder of Shelley Salter Watkins in Corsicana, Texas.

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Introduction

In Episode 12 of "The Unforgotten," hosts Carol Dawson and Wes Ferguson delve into a series of listener-submitted questions, providing deeper insights into the intricate and chilling case of Shelley Salter Watkins. This episode serves as an essential guide for both long-time followers and new listeners seeking to understand the complexities of the investigation and the enduring quest for justice.

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1. Jerry Mack Watkins’ Other Child

Question: Why are people so interested in Jerry Mack Watkins' son from a previous relationship?

Carol Dawson (01:37):
"Because he was an illegitimate child. Jerry had fathered this child but denied paternity until legally compelled to acknowledge him."

The revelation of Jerry Mack Watkins' additional child created significant tension, especially after his marriage to Shelly. Shelly discovered his prior marriages and his son only after their union, leading to feelings of betrayal and complicating family dynamics.

Wes Ferguson (03:28):
"The son has grown up, has a family of his own, and doesn’t bear the Watkins name. Despite attempts to contact him, he values his privacy and has limited involvement with the Watkins family."

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2. Rumors About the Watkins Residence for Sale

Question: Has the Watkins residence been put up for sale?

Carol Dawson (04:52):
"I have heard absolutely zero confirmation of that, and I don't think it's true."

Wes adds that the house isn't listed on any major real estate platforms and that communication with Jake Felt, the former son-in-law, indicates the residence remains unsold. The hosts deem the sale rumors as baseless but acknowledge their prevalence among listeners.

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3. Dennis Bryant’s Interaction with Law Enforcement

Question: Was Dennis Bryant, ex-husband of K. Bryant, ever interviewed by the police?

Carol Dawson (06:07):
"I have never been able to ascertain that. Given his close association with Jerry and Shelly, it's likely he was interviewed, but confirmation remains elusive."

Wes Ferguson (08:34):
"Dennis Bryant passed away in 2019. Attempts to reach his family for comments were unsuccessful."

Carol speculates that Dennis would have been a potential witness due to his longstanding friendship with Jerry and presence at key events, but without concrete evidence, his involvement remains unclear.

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4. Shelly’s Potential Hidden Information

Question: Shelley mentioned knowing things that could cause the family trouble. Has this information been uncovered?

Carol Dawson (11:01):
"The idea that Shelly hid information is intriguing, but no concrete evidence has been found. Any such details would likely have been shared with someone close, possibly her sister Sandy."

Despite extensive interviews and investigations, there remains no verified information indicating that Shelley concealed critical evidence. Both hosts express hope that future discoveries might shed light on this possibility.

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5. Jerry Mack Watkins’ Response to Discovery Requests

Question: Did Jerry Mack ever respond to discovery requests? If not, why?

Carol Dawson (15:59):
"Jerry lawyered up immediately after Shelly's death, engaging a strong legal team led by Glenn Sod. He stonewalled law enforcement, denying them access to the property until compelled by a search warrant, and has never been deposed or interviewed regarding the case."

The hosts highlight Jerry's strategic legal maneuvers to protect himself, which have significantly hindered the investigation's progress and transparency.

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6. Settlement of the Civil Suit

Question: Why was there no public reflection of the mediated settlement agreement in Shelly’s wrongful death suit against Jerry?

Wes Ferguson (17:03):
"The suit was settled out of court, and settlements typically don't require public disclosure of terms. The case was simply marked as 'dropped.'"

Carol Dawson (18:01):
"Sandy, Shelly's sister, regrets not being more assertive in obtaining documentation from the settlement, leading to lingering frustrations and unanswered questions."

The lack of public details about the settlement has contributed to ongoing suspicions and feelings of incomplete justice among Shelly’s family and supporters.

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7. Reasons the Case Hasn't Been Reopened

Question: Why hasn't the case been retried or reopened?

Carol Dawson (21:05):
"The case has never been officially closed. The District Attorney, E. Ray Andrews, attempted to solicit a bribe, leading to his arrest and imprisonment. In exchange for cooperation against Andrews, the FBI refrained from further investigating the murder, effectively leaving Jerry Mack Watkins unchallenged."

Wes Ferguson (21:38):
"This corruption within the legal system has hindered any attempts to revisit the case, as the DA’s involvement with the FBI precluded them from pursuing Watkins’ murder charges effectively."

The intertwining of corruption and legal maneuvering has left the case in a perpetual state of limbo, preventing closure and accountability.

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8. Potential Media Coverage: Book and Television

Question: Are there plans for a book or TV adaptation about Shelley Watkins’ case?

Carol Dawson (29:03):
"Yes. I'm writing a book titled 'Labor Day: A Brief History of Murder in Corsicana,' which integrates all the intricate details and new findings from our podcast. Additionally, Sundance TV's true crime series 'It Couldn't Happen Here' is producing an episode on the case, and ABC 2020 is developing a two-and-a-half-hour documentary special."

Wes Ferguson (32:07):
"The documentary aims to explore the case further, especially highlighting the challenges faced by the investigators and the community's enduring quest for justice."

These upcoming projects promise to bring renewed attention and possibly new leads to the cold case, offering both historical context and contemporary analysis.

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9. Debunking the Random Stranger Theory

Question: Why was the theory that a random stranger killed Shelley dismissed?

Carol Dawson (37:00):
"The theory lacks plausibility on several fronts:

• Shelley’s aggressive departure from home after a quarrel made it unlikely she'd encounter a random stranger.
• The house lights remained on until 4 AM, contradicting Jerry’s claim of going to bed immediately.
• The method of body disposal was intricate and utilized materials from Jerry’s construction business, suggesting insider involvement.
• The violent nature of the murder, including multiple head lacerations, doesn't align with a random encounter."

Wes Ferguson (40:56):
"The logistical improbabilities and lack of evidence supporting this theory make it an unlikely scenario for Shelley's murder."

The hosts emphasize that the evidence points towards a more personal and calculated perpetrator, aligning with suspicions surrounding Jerry Mack Watkins.

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10. Shelley’s Transportation from Lake House to Home

Question: How did Shelley get from the lake house back to her home if Jerry took her car earlier that night?

Carol Dawson (43:42):
"Speculations include:

• Jerry’s brother, Ronnie, might have driven her.
• Possibly Kay, Jerry’s current wife, could have driven her, though conflicting statements suggest otherwise.
• It’s also possible that no one stayed with the children, indicating Shelley's transportation was arranged to facilitate the disposal of her body."

Wes Ferguson (46:03):
"This remains one of the many unanswered questions, highlighting gaps in the timeline and fostering further suspicions about the case dynamics."

Understanding Shelley's movements that night is crucial, yet the lack of definitive answers continues to obscure the truth.

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11. The Justice Billboard on I-45

Question: What can you tell us about the billboard erected on I-45 featuring Shelly’s photo?

Carol Dawson (46:07):
"The 'Justice for Shelly' billboard, inspired by the film 'Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri,' was strategically placed along I-45 to target Jerry Mack Watkins’ construction business. Installed by Shelly’s nieces, the billboard remained for two weeks, symbolizing the family's ongoing struggle for closure and justice."

Wes Ferguson (47:52):
"The billboard has become a poignant reminder to motorists and the community alike, keeping Shelly’s case in the public eye and challenging the silence surrounding the ongoing investigation."

The billboard serves as a powerful statement against the backdrop of a community grappling with unresolved grief and systemic corruption.

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Conclusion

Carol Dawson and Wes Ferguson reaffirm their commitment to uncovering the truth behind Shelley Salter Watkins' tragic and unresolved murder. They encourage listeners to continue supporting the investigation by donating information and staying engaged with ongoing developments. The hosts emphasize that "The Unforgotten" will persist in its pursuit of justice, ensuring that Shelley’s story remains alive and that the quest for answers does not fade into obscurity.

Carol Dawson:
"It's now. One of the interesting things about this whole case is that people don't want to let it go... their voices have been very, very strong in support of our podcast and of the story itself and what becomes of it."

Wes Ferguson:
"Our promise to them is that this story is not going away."

As the episode concludes, listeners are left with a deeper understanding of the case's complexities and the unwavering determination of those seeking justice for Shelley Salter Watkins.

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For more updates, visit unforgottenpod.com and join the Facebook group "Never Give Up Justice for Shelley" to stay connected with the community and share any new information related to the case.

Transcript

[Wes Ferguson]

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[Carol Dawson]

Hello, this is Carol Dawson.

[Wes Ferguson]

And I'm Wes Ferguson.

[Carol Dawson]

And this is a bonus episode of season one, the the Labor Day Ghost. In it, we will be attempting to answer some of the questions that our listeners have asked after listening to our podcast, because it is an ongoing story and an ongoing investigation into a very complex murder case that took place in my hometown of Corsicana, Texas.

[Wes Ferguson]

All right, let's get to it.

[Carol Dawson]

Okay.

[Wes Ferguson]

We received a bunch of questions since our last episode of the season came out. The first question is, you know, a lot of people were asking about Jerry Mack's other child, the son from his previous relationship. Why do you think people are so interested in him?

[Carol Dawson]

Well, because he was an illegitimate child. Because Jerry had fathered this child, but then denied paternity until his feet were held to the fire legally. And he had to. He. You know, he. Things got tested. There was proof of paternity, and he had to become legally responsible and provide child support for this child. And also, it was a big bone of contention at first, once he and Shelly had gotten married, and then she made the discovery that he had fathered this son. She did not make that discovery because Jerry told her.

[Wes Ferguson]

Really?

[Carol Dawson]

So once she found out, she was, of course, very upset that she had not been told. She also had not been told of his previous marriages. She did not know that he had actually been married twice before he married her.

[Wes Ferguson]

Wow.

[Carol Dawson]

So, you know, she had a lot to unpack after they actually tied the knot, so to speak. Not to mix metaphors too much.

[Wes Ferguson]

Right. Yeah. And so a few people ask, whatever happened to the son? And the answer is, he. He grew up. He Has a family. He lives in a small town in Texas. He does not have the Watkins name.

[Carol Dawson]

That's correct.

[Wes Ferguson]

I tried to contact him, you know, I left some voicemails. If any of them got through to him, then he didn't respond. He didn't respond to a direct message on social media either. But from what we've been told, he does have some contact with. With the Watkins family.

[Carol Dawson]

I understand that there have been in the past family holiday celebrations that he has been invited to. I don't know if that is a regular occurrence or not.

[Wes Ferguson]

Okay.

[Carol Dawson]

Certainly his half sisters are very much aware of his existence and apparently there is a friendly footing. But from what I understand, I don't know how deep an involvement there is.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah, he didn't really seem that connected and was just kind of valuing his privacy. And I didn't. I guess I didn't pry too hard. We also tried to get in touch with his mom and failed at that as well.

[Carol Dawson]

Ghosted or just. Just no response.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah. So there were a ton of rumors this fall that the Watkins residence was put up for sale. What have you heard?

[Carol Dawson]

I have heard absolutely zero confirmation of that. And I don't think it's true.

[Wes Ferguson]

It's certainly not listed on realtor.com or any place like that.

[Carol Dawson]

No, it's not an MLA. I mean. Yeah. Listing. And you know, I think that, I mean, I've been in communication with Jake Felt, the former son in law, now former son in law of Jerry Mack Watkins. And I think I would have been informed by Jake, who after all, has two sons with Ashley and two children with Ashley and whose children are frequent visitors at that home. I think Jake would be aware if that house had ever been put up for sale. So I don't think it has.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah, we think this is a baseless rumor. It's funny though, I heard a lot of people asking. They asked me about it several times.

[Carol Dawson]

I don't know how, stuff like that. I got asked about it too, but same answer. You know, I don't think so. Yeah, if it is, it's top secret.

[Wes Ferguson]

So we also, we got a ton of questions about Dennis Bryant. He was the ex husband of K. Bryant, now Kay Watkins, Jerry Mack's current wife. Was Dennis ever interviewed by the police?

[Carol Dawson]

You know, I don't know. I have never been able to ascertain that. I would assume that he would have been for the simple reason that they had formerly been neighbors up until just a few months before Shelly was murdered. And of course, Kay herself was very close friends with Shelly and Kay and Dennis socialized with Jerry and Shelly a lot. And after Shelley's death, Kay and Dennis continued to accompany Jerry on ski boat rides, etcetera, According to eyewitnesses who have described these to me very definitively for months and months after Shelly's death. So I certainly would have thought that Dennis would have been an interviewee for law enforcement, but I've never had that confirmed.

[Wes Ferguson]

And his name was included on the list of potential witnesses that the state put together. And they were at the lake house. Right. On the last day of Shelley's life.

[Carol Dawson]

They were. They were party guests for that Labor Day celebration at the Watkins Lake house on Cedar Creek Lake.

[Wes Ferguson]

And we know that Dennis's wife Kay was interviewed because some of that interview was excerpted in the affidavit for the search warrant that was used to go search the Watkins house.

[Carol Dawson]

Yes.

[Wes Ferguson]

So if they're interviewing Kay, I'd be pretty surprised if they didn't also interview Dennis.

[Carol Dawson]

Well, and also the fact that Dennis and Jerry had been long standing friends.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah. Former college roommates. People asked if we had tried to interview Dennis. Unfortunately, he died in 2019. I did speak very briefly to one of his brothers who declined to comment. Mark, that sounds right. Yeah.

[Carol Dawson]

Yeah. Yes, I would think that he would decline to comment.

[Wes Ferguson]

Another mutual friend of Dennis's told me that Dennis didn't seem too concerned when Kay left him. I don't really know what. There's some things I can't say about that.

[Carol Dawson]

There's a lot I can't say about that. But I have heard a lot of firsthand reporting to me by firsthand witnesses who had a lot of commentary about that relationship at the time, that 17 year marriage and its eventual demise and the things that went on during that marriage.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Carol Dawson]

That contributed to, I would assume, a certain amount of distancing within the couple.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah, they had been married for about 14 years and then.

[Carol Dawson]

17.

[Wes Ferguson]

Oh, 17, yeah. Okay.

[Carol Dawson]

Or together for 17 years.

[Wes Ferguson]

We had one listener who left a message on the voicemail we set up a while back. That number is 903-374-3703, if you want to call us. Here's her question. Hi, I love the podcast and I am dying to know what episode of the Netflix show Cheer we can see them at. I believe it was Jerry Mack, Watkins.

[Carol Dawson]

House or someone in relation, what episode that is.

[Wes Ferguson]

And then also, where can we find.

[Carol Dawson]

Any photos or anything about the case?

[Wes Ferguson]

I just have not had luck with.

[Carol Dawson]

That, so thank you.

[Wes Ferguson]

The pool party at the Watkins House is in season one of Cheer episode four, Hell Week. It's about 43 minutes and 30 seconds in. As for the photos, we've shared a bunch on our Facebook page and in our [e-mail]. there's also a Facebook group called Never Give up justice for Shelley where her friends and loved ones have shared even more photos. Shell Shelly told her sister Sandy that she knew things about the family that would cause them to be in a lot of trouble. Has anyone tried to look into that? Or whether she may have hid info somewhere?

[Carol Dawson]

Ooh. The prospect of her having hidden info somewhere is very, very piquant. I don't know where she would have hidden it. I would think that if she confided in any, it would have been Sandy. And she would have said, look, I have stashed evidence or info of what I'm talking about in some particular place. Maybe she confided it in a close friend, if it existed.

[Wes Ferguson]

You've talked to all of her friends that I know of, and we have not heard anything about some info that has not come to light.

[Carol Dawson]

Well, there's one old friend that I haven't talked with, and that's K. Bryant Watkins.

[Wes Ferguson]

Oh, good point.

[Carol Dawson]

Just saying.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah, very true. But no, we have not heard about any. Any secret info hidden somewhere.

[Carol Dawson]

And. And what was the other part of the question? Oh, was that ever pursued as to what that might have been?

[Wes Ferguson]

What. What might have caused them a lot of trouble?

[Carol Dawson]

I have very strong eyewitness commentary that is off the record as to what that could have been. It would have involved Carmack Watkins as well as his two sons. And I have heard a lot of off the record commentary about the particular ways that Carmack conducted business, because it's all off the record. I cannot cite these particular incidents, events, eyewitness accounts, etc. But let's just say that there were implications of some real shady behavior. And that seems to have been a theme Right, in Corsicana. So if that's true, and that has come to me through the people that have been willing to tell me about it, even though they won't go on the record, then I really have to wonder what Shelley might have found out. Because what she might have found out would probably be a lot even more pointed and even more scurrilous.

[Wes Ferguson]

Right.

[Carol Dawson]

Just saying.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah, but at this point, other than what we've reported in the podcast, we. We don't have any direct evidence of what that might have been.

[Carol Dawson]

We do not. And also, other than eyewitness accounts.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah, and we don't have access to the sheriff's office files. So if they know more about that, then it has not ever been disclosed to the public and won't unless this case is resolved.

[Carol Dawson]

That's right. And we cannot prove anything that the eyewitnesses who have spoken off the record have mentioned.

[Wes Ferguson]

Okay, next question. So I know it's been a long time since I was in college, but I'll never forget my first year as a transfer student on this huge college campus. It seemed like everybody else already had their friends, they had everything figured out and I was just pretty clueless and pretty lonely. I found out we had a campus therapy center where I could go talk to somebody and I gotta tell you, it was just pretty helpful to have someone that I could talk to and work some things out. Telehealth has made mental health care a lot more convenient, but it can still be pretty tough to find the right therapist and you never really know what your out of pocket costs might be. That's why I want to tell you about Rula. They take most major insurance plans and the copay is only $15 per session. But it's not just affordable. They also stick with you throughout your journey, making sure you get the best therapy and that you're making progress. Head on over to rula.com unforgotten to get started today. After you sign up, they ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. Go to r u l a.com unforgotten and take the first step towards better mental health today. You deserve quality care from someone who cares. The search for truth never ends. Introducing June's Journey, a hidden object mobile game with a captivating story. Connect with friends, explore the Roaring twenties and enjoy thrilling activities and challenges while supporting environmental causes. After seven years, the adventure continues with our Immersive Travels feature. Explore distant cultures and engage in exciting experiences. There's always something new to discover. Are you ready? Download June's Journey now ON Android or iOS. Did Jerry Mack ever answer any discovery requests? If not, why?

[Carol Dawson]

I think that Jerry Mack lawyered up immediately after Shelly's death. In fact, I know for a fact he did because he lawyered up with my father's law partner, Glenn Sod, and I suspect that he protected himself very, very thoroughly. We know, for instance, that when law enforcement wanted to come out immediately after Shelly's body was discovered and investigate the house, search the house, try to find out what might have happened to her, find any trace of where she might have gone, what could have occurred. He stonewalled them completely and would not permit any law enforcement on the property until he was forced to months later by the search warrant affidavit that the judge signed in Henderson county, requiring him to open the property to law enforcement search.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah. And to our knowledge, he's never been deposed or interviewed either for a criminal matter or civil involving Shelley's death?

[Carol Dawson]

Not that I know of. He had really good lawyers.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah. So the same person asked. So we reported in the podcast that Shelly's mom and sister had filed a civil suit against Jerry Mack for the wrongful death of Shelly. And then that suit was settled out of court. And so this person asks why was there no reflection of a mediated settlement agreement in the case? And I think that's just because they settled out of court. You know, they were not legally required to file any additional paperwork reflecting the terms of that settlement. They just all. All it said was, this case has been dropped.

[Carol Dawson]

That's correct. The terms of the settlement would have resided with their attorneys. Now, I would like to add that Sandy has regretted not having been more pushy, shall we say, or more assertive in getting the kind of documentation, both from her attorney and from the entire situation that was involved in that settlement through the years, because it was not really made clear to her. And she has been upset with herself for having basically both been in a state of deep grief about it and.

[Wes Ferguson]

For being naive, which is also entirely understandable because you've been. You've never been thrust in this kind of situation in your life and you trust your lawyer to act in your best interest.

[Carol Dawson]

Absolutely. And the lawyer that she had hired, and she was living in Atlanta, Georgia at the time and has been since. The lawyer that she and her mother hired was a Texas based lawyer who had much more contact with Jerry's side of the entire case than he did really with Sandy and her mother.

[Wes Ferguson]

Wow. That's kind of troubling.

[Carol Dawson]

Uh huh.

[Wes Ferguson]

And he's still in practice. He did not respond to my request for an interview. His paralegal or whoever answered the phone said that he destroyed all of his files from this era. So that documentation is most likely long gone.

[Carol Dawson]

That's very interesting. I wonder if that is current practice that attorneys destroy their files from so long ago, Because I certainly know that my dad, who was an attorney in Corsicana and the head of his law firm, maintained files that extended back for decades and decades and decades and only lost those files when the actual law firm's building burned.

[Wes Ferguson]

Wow.

[Carol Dawson]

So just saying. Huh. I wonder if. If that's some kind of new approach or policy that attorneys take. Now, I would be interested in asking that question and pursuing that further.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah, I have run into that with some district clerk's offices that have destroyed some of their old case files. That. And I was, you know, surprised and disappointed that those records are gone. But I had. I'm not familiar with it from the private practice side.

[Carol Dawson]

Right, right.

[Wes Ferguson]

Oh, such a simple question with a very convoluted answer. What's the main reason this case hasn't been reopened?

[Carol Dawson]

It's never been closed. It's never been. There's a simple answer. It has never been closed. Why has it? Well, that's the answer to that. But I hope that in our previous bonus episode, we have at least answered some aspects of that question.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah, I mean, just to recap, I think we could say why there has been no resolution. And that was the, you know, direct result of the District Attorney, E. Ray Andrews, trying to solicit the bribe which resulted in Jerry Mack Watkins, the defendant, being miked up, you know, in cooperation with the FBI to bring down E. Ray. So the District attorney goes to federal prison. Jerry Mack Watkins goes free. The charges against him are dropped. And from what we understand, because the FBI participated in capturing or taking down E. Ray, the District attorney, it precluded them from helping with the invest any future investigation into Jerry Mack. Is that accurate?

[Carol Dawson]

What I understand is that they were instructed that if this. If they were going to pursue this violation of the Hobbs act against the District Attorney to pursue him for this federal crime to do with trying to solicit a bribe, that they would have the cooperation of Jerry Mack in Gerry Mack Watkins in that process, if they would not ask him any questions at all about the murder itself. And therefore they sat with him for long periods of time working with him on this case and with then Texas Ranger Ray Nutt, who was also aiding and abetting the case's investigation against E. Ray. But they could not actively say anything or do anything about the murder itself or ask Jerry any questions or even bring it up. Now, that's a state crime. It's not a federal crime. So the FBI did not have any jurisdiction to pursue that murder investigation. It has been noted in the past by certain, at least by one family member that I know of, that obviously this was a case. She said at the time in protest. This is not on Shelley's side of the family. This is on the Watkins side of the family that this case has been investigated for years and years and years. And obviously, even The FBI couldn't solve it. Well, the FBI didn't try to solve it. Yeah, they couldn't try to solve it because they would have had to be referred to the case or the case would have had to be referred to them specifically by local law enforcement to solve, and it wasn't.

[Wes Ferguson]

And in your interview with current Sheriff Bodie Hillhouse, he also said the FBI declined to help with this case when he asked. Does that ring a bell to you? No, I think that's in there.

[Carol Dawson]

It probably is, but, you know, I haven't listened to the conversation in quite a while, but it's all on tape, so.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah, he said, unfortunately, they. They declined to help with the DNA. So I'll just pull a little clip of that. Actually, the FBI has taken the other cold case and. But they did not choose to take this one for whatever reason. So more recently, they have not been willing to help with the case.

[Carol Dawson]

They've never tried to track the case because they couldn't. It wasn't in their jurisdiction. It would have been a DPS matter, a Texas Department of Public Safety matter for a larger entity other than the immediate sheriff's office to pursue it.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah. And there have been several Texas Rangers over the years that have been involved in investigating different aspects of the case, especially some in the later 90s. Remember when they. They went out and they were, you know, investigating the. The barn where they thought maybe some evidence had been buried, but then they. That those didn't go anywhere either.

[Carol Dawson]

I've recently been given the name of yet another Texas Ranger who has just been told the story of this and. And of the apparent paralysis at the moment of the Henderson county sheriff and his office. And he is very interested.

[Wes Ferguson]

Oh, really?

[Carol Dawson]

And I'll be having a conversation with him.

[Wes Ferguson]

Is that a current Texas Ranger or a retired.

[Carol Dawson]

Yes.

[Wes Ferguson]

Okay. As we know, there is a current Texas Ranger in Henderson county who has been assisting with some of the developments this summer. But this person has also never responded to any of our requests for comment. Right.

[Carol Dawson]

I was not aware that he had assisted at all.

[Wes Ferguson]

Like when there was the issue with the garage, then it was like Paris and that ranger both went out together.

[Carol Dawson]

I did not know the Ranger accompanied Victor to the garage.

[Wes Ferguson]

I thought so, but I. I might have misremembered.

[Carol Dawson]

Are you sure it wasn't the DA's investigator that did that?

[Wes Ferguson]

No, it might have been, yeah.

[Carol Dawson]

I'm just, you know, I would like confirmation that it really was Michael Acock who accompanied Victor to that garage. I understand that the current Texas Ranger for that region is very good friends with Sheriff Bodie Hillhouse. That's just what I've been told. That's all I know.

[Wes Ferguson]

But at any rate, that person, the current Texas Ranger, has not. Has not responded to our requests.

[Carol Dawson]

I've put in several calls to him and messaged and messaged him, also through the person covering his office, and he has never responded.

[Wes Ferguson]

Why isn't the Henderson County District Attorney retrying the case? Are there things we don't know? Who is over her case? And can we donate?

[Carol Dawson]

Oh, I love the part about can we donate. If you can donate information, then we have direct, direct connection to this case. We would appreciate it, and so would everybody else who has a strong investment in the case and would love to see this case solved. As far as any sort of monetary donation, I don't think that that is pertinent. I don't think that a monetary donation would do any good or make a difference.

[Wes Ferguson]

So the current DA is Jenni Palmer?

[Carol Dawson]

The current da yeah, is Jenni Palmer.

[Wes Ferguson]

And you've been in touch with her. And so was the other. Another reporter that we've been working with. But Ms. Palmer issued a very short statement just saying that she didn't comment on cases. So we really don't know why she's not retrying the case. It's just because it hasn't gone before the grand jury.

[Carol Dawson]

Again, I think that should anyone. Physical evidence evolve from this whole investigation, and there is the opportunity for it to, because we certainly have been helpful in providing some.

[Wes Ferguson]

Right.

[Carol Dawson]

Should any physical evidence that can be tied directly or indirectly to what happened to Shelly Watkins, I think that at that point there will be a pursuit of the case. I think that Jenny Palmer would be very interested in following that up. At least that's the impression I've gained from her in the conversation I've had with her and the further conversations I've had with her office.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah. Will there be a book or movie or TV episode about the case?

[Carol Dawson]

Oh, yeah.

[Wes Ferguson]

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Carol Dawson]

Carol, this entire podcast sprang from a book that I am currently writing about my hometown of Corsicana and murders that have occurred there. And this particular case is woven all the way through the entire narrative. The book is called the Labor Day A Brief History of Murder in Corsicana. And I have yet to finish adding all the new material that you and I, Wes, have uncovered and researched and documented since it was suggested to me by a New York agent that this book would make a great podcast. I have been so grateful to her for her suggestion, because it afforded a whole new scope of looking at this case, of digging into this case and all the deep swampland involved in this case, of reflecting on my hometown of Corsicana, which as I state early on in the book that I'm writing is in my opinion the most gothic small town in America because of so many bizarre murders and events that have occurred there, all of which are interconnected and connected in one way or another directly to this case. So yes, there will be a book. I just have to finish writing it. And books take longer sometimes than podcasts do. There will certainly be follow up television specifically about this case. Keep your ears and eyes tuned on Sundance TV on their true crime series It Couldn't Happen Here, which is a wonderful true crime series investigating small town cases throughout America. And an entire episode has now been filmed and recorded. And I understand if it's not in the can already, it just about is for this upcoming season.

[Wes Ferguson]

Okay.

[Carol Dawson]

Of It Couldn't Happen here.

[Wes Ferguson]

Do you have any idea what time of year it's going to come out?

[Carol Dawson]

I will let you know the moment that the producer informs me It Couldn't Happen here. It has a host who herself is from a small town and lends a very compassionate ear to family members of victims and is very deeply invested in telling the story of what has happened to those victims and how the story has unfolded. And so they've done a lot of deep research.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah. Their producers came to Texas and interviewed several people and including me. A marathon session, huh?

[Carol Dawson]

Oh yeah. Five and a half hours.

[Wes Ferguson]

Wow.

[Carol Dawson]

Also, as I mentioned earlier, ABC 2020, the producer of that show, very much wants to do a two and a half hour documentary special on this case. And she is waiting for only one or two final pins to drop before all that gets put into play. The fact that Henderson County Sheriff's Department has stonewalled her so completely, like without even a courtesy in Athens, Texas, has made her all the more determined and dogged to follow this up. So look for that in the future. There is that in all probability coming up because it's quite possible that those pins are going to be dropping soon. That's all I can say about that for now because some of the information backing that up is still quite private. And there will be other news segments here and there that we have already received confirmation of that you can look forward to perhaps on your local news channel. That's all I can say about that so far.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah. Words out.

[Carol Dawson]

It is now. One of the interesting things about this whole case to me is, is that people don't want to let it go. There are so many people, and some of them are young. Young people who were either small children when this happened or young children when this happened, or maybe not even born yet when this happened. But care. Have come to care deeply about Shelley and her fate and the particular system of corruption in the two counties of Navarro county and Henderson county that they have seen evolve and that they feel have pertained especially to this case. So their voices have been very, very strong in support of our podcast and of the story itself and what becomes of it.

[Wes Ferguson]

There's been a real generational divide between the older community members and an older mentality of keep things quiet, keep the peace, let the past.

[Carol Dawson]

Let the past go. Let it stay in the past.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Carol Dawson]

It's old news now. Just. Just let it stay in the past.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah. And then a younger generation who are just now finding out the horrific details of this case and wanting to know why justice has never been delivered.

[Carol Dawson]

That's right. That's right. I find it really interesting that there is that kind of active indignation among younger people, especially in Navarro county, who are just going, well, what the heck? This is just yet another example of what happens in this town, in this county, because Corsicana, which is, as I mentioned, in some ways an idyllic community to grow up in, especially if you're quite sheltered in it, as I was, also has its underbelly. And the underbelly can be really nasty, as you and I have discovered and uncovered in some of the things we've heard. And some of these young people have been affected by that themselves, and they don't like it, and they don't want to see that as the practice of their hometown. They are really outraged and indignant, and I appreciate that.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah. And our promise to them is that this story is not going away.

[Carol Dawson]

It ain't going away. I'm sure. Never letting it go.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Carol Dawson]

I mean, come on.

[Wes Ferguson]

So we've heard from a few people that had always been told that it was a stranger, it was a motorist. You know, it was someone who picked up Shelly on the frontage road of I45. I think if you listen to the podcast closely, you would know why that wasn't very plausible. But since it was asked, I mean, could you repeat why that theory was essentially debunked?

[Carol Dawson]

Oh, well, that theory was debunked on multiple levels. For one thing. Supposedly Shelley, after a quarrel with her husband, who had, according to his own word, snatched her car keys away when she had threatened to leave him late that same night of Labor Day 1993, and to take their children with her. According to him, she then marched away into the darkness in a very tiny rural development off Interstate 45, wearing nothing but her little shorts and athletic shorts and top outfit that she'd been wearing all day out at the lake, into the darkness, and was never seen alive again. Now, the possibility, much less the probability, of her marching off onto the highway to be picked up by some random stranger is highly unlikely, to say the least. There were other observations made by neighbors across the street, neighbors that even though the husband claimed to have gone back into the house and immediately gone to bed and gone to sleep, the house lights, including all the outdoor lights, stayed on until 4 o'clock in the morning. But most tellingly, the law investigators themselves concluded, the chief investigators, that the likelihood of some random stranger picking Shelly up and murdering her and then disposing of her body in what was basically an obscure rural location off a bridge over the Trinity river, having previously prepared her body by wrapping it in black construction tarp and duct taping the package together and then weighting it down to concrete construction blocks with rope and chain, all materials available at the husband's business of Watkins construction, directly across the highway. They were common materials that could have been found in a number of different places, certainly at other construction buildings, but they were found there. And the thought that they were then used to dispose of her body and carry the body out to the Trinity river bridge, beyond the little farming community of Roane, where Jerry Mack Watkins grew up until he was in junior high, middle school, and thrown off the bridge there in the early hours of the morning. So that her body was then submerged in that area of the Trinity for a week before it was found, Pretty much precludes any random stranger who happened to pick her up and then murdered her, because she would have been thrown in a ditch, she would have been dumped. That body would have just been disposed of out a truck window.

[Wes Ferguson]

I mean, it defies all common sense that she would have been picked up by someone who just happened to have all of these items and would have had to kill her very quickly and then immediately driven off the main highway and known to go through the woods, through this very dark back roads, to this place that only locals knew about.

[Carol Dawson]

And then there was the detail in the autopsy about the violence that was committed on her body.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Carol Dawson]

Would a random stranger actually strike the back of her head eight different times, creating lacerations on the back of her skull? The conclusion from the autopsy was that the exact cause of death because of the decomposition of the body after a week of immersion, couldn't be exactly determined. However, it was explained to us by the medical examiner in Dallas, who, who interpreted the entire autopsy report for us, that the possibility of a brain bleed was very strong in the cause of death. There was also a furrow around her neck which might have indicated a ligature of some kind that could have at least partially strangled her. Now, would a random stranger do that? Eight blows on the back of her head, maybe one or two on her head. But why would a random stranger do that? She also had not been sexually violated. She was fully clothed when her body was dumped.

[Wes Ferguson]

There was a rumor that a blonde woman was seen at the like all night diner around the corner.

[Carol Dawson]

The Waffle House. The Waffle House, yes. Except that the timing did not coincide with Shelly. It turned out that that woman who had apparently shown up and then and was kind of disheveled, looked like she'd been attacked. That was about 9:30 at night. @ which time Shelly was, to our knowledge, still out at the lake. So that wound up getting dismissed. A waitress had reported that. They were able to ascertain the timing because of the time when her shift ended and the next waitress took over.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah. It just doesn't make sense.

[Carol Dawson]

No.

[Wes Ferguson]

And then I also, someone asked me, how did Shelley get from the lake house back to her house if Jerry had taken her car with the girls earlier in the night?

[Carol Dawson]

We would love to know. If anybody has the answer to that, please share it with us.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah, I mean, I've heard from a few different people that it was Jerry's brother Ronnie that drove her.

[Carol Dawson]

I've heard that too, but I would sure want some confirmation. I've heard other people speculate that perhaps it was Kay who drove her home and Kay who stayed at the house with the girls, who were supposedly in bed asleep that evening. Now, there's all kinds of speculation that is rife around that. One of the things I'd like to mention that recently came up because I have been asked over and over, well, if Jerry Mack Watkins really did this and really then accompanied whoever possibly lent a hand in disposing of Shelley's body, who might have been the person who prepared the body for disposal and then accompanied Jerry to the bridge to dispose of it. As an eyewitness had recounted seeing Jerry on the bridge and identifying Jerry in a photo lineup at 4:30 in the morning, then who stayed at home with the girls? Well, to that I have to say there's been A far more recent case just outside of Waco of a man who has been convicted of murdering his wife. He was a Baptist minister in Hewitt, and he did it with his two young children in the house. And then he left the house with his wife's body still in the house and the two young children in the house, and went out for a little under an hour to give himself an alibi. So my answer to that question is that quite possibly nobody stayed with the children, nobody stayed with the girls. If Jerry Mack Watkins, in fact, did go help dispose of his wife's body, if that were true, if that could be proven, it's quite possible that nobody stayed with the girls.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, we just don't know.

[Carol Dawson]

No, but I've been asked that question over and over.

[Wes Ferguson]

Any others?

[Carol Dawson]

Oh, the billboard, when the billboard was erected on I45, that had a photograph of Shelly on it. And it was. The billboard was erected, an electronic billboard, justice for Shelly was placed strategically on i45 in the direct path of anybody, including Gerry Mac Watkins, driving to Watkins Construction in Corsicana. And it was put there by Shelly's two nieces and remained up for two weeks. I was contacted over and over by people in Corsicana who were just going, have you. Do you know about this billboard? Can you believe there's this billboard here? Oh, my gosh. There's this billboard. Who did this? And, you know, I kept explaining, well, Shelly's family did because they have never received any kind of closure, any kind of resolution, and they have been in a grief process for 31 years now. This was something that they did. And it reminded me of that movie, you know, Three Billboards Outside of Whatever It Is, Missouri, that wound up winning Oscars.

[Wes Ferguson]

Yeah. Frances McDormand.

[Carol Dawson]

Yeah. Oh, she was amazing. At any rate, it was amazing to see how riveting that was to the people of Navarro county and other motorists just driving through town. And it's another reason that I think that this story will not go away, because people are still feeling so connected.

[Wes Ferguson]

To it and such a in your face display about something that so many people are afraid to talk about.

[Carol Dawson]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yes.

[Wes Ferguson]

So, I mean, I wonder if it has. You know, I hope that it's encouraged some people to come forward, maybe talk to the police that we don't know about.

[Carol Dawson]

Wouldn't that be great?

[Wes Ferguson]

Thank you for listening to this bonus episode. We're going to keep reporting the story. Carol's going to keep writing her book, and we'll be back to you as soon as we can the Unforgotten is a Free Range production. Season one, the Labor Day Ghost is created, written and hosted by Carol Dawson and me, Wes Ferguson. I'm the executive producer at Free Range. Our theme song, ghost, was written and recorded by Corsicana's own Will Mechatron Jones.