B (3:01)

It was like three grand, right? Three grand in his pockets. And he would get the case dropped.

A (3:05)

Yep, yep. That's one example. He also took money from the state that was supposedly to go to augment the salaries of his staff, and he pocketed that money instead. He had a gambling problem. He had a serious drinking problem. He also had a prescription drugs problem. And he had been known as a really good, strong, intelligent, convincing attorney. But because of his, shall we say, lattice of weaknesses, he also committed crimes and made himself vulnerable. So once E. Ray was elected da, he continued his bad habits. He would go and put away half a bottle of wild turkey during the lunch break in the middle of the day when he was supposed to be in court shortly, for instance. And you and I in the podcast have several people telling tales of eray's behaviors and the things they had to do about it. For instance, his assistant district attorney, Mike Head, who had to go and move Eray's car to put it in front of the courthouse to make it look like E. Ray was actually at work when he was at home sleeping off a hangover. Eventually, the case that came into E. Ray's hands was Shelly Watkins. And E. Ray looked at all of the very large list of circumstantial evidence. And even though the two investigators in charge of the case, Texas ranger Ray nutt and criminal investigator and homicide detective Larry Warrick, had told E. Ray that they had not yet finally found a physical link tying Jerry Watkins. Jerry Mack Watkins, Shelly's husband, to the murder of his wife, E. Ray nonetheless said, there is enough here to put before the grand jury and then prosecute because it is very obvious that this guy did it. So the case proceeded, and sure enough, Jerry Mack was indicted on the basis of the long list of circumstantial evidence and the testimonies of some of the state's witnesses. Now, you and I both know that grand jury testimony is absolutely secret. It's kept absolutely private. I happen to know of at least a couple of pieces of testimony that were presented in that grand jury at the time that were never made public, but certainly would have enhanced the jury's opinion that Jerry Mack was guilty of this crime. So eray proceeded with the prosecution. Jerry Mack, meanwhile, had lawyered up, and he had lawyered up with my father's civil partner. My father had a civil law practice, and his civil partner was none other than Glenn sod, who had, remember, known E. Ray back in law school. And Glenn, in turn, I'm sure Although I've never heard this confirmed, was able to hook Jerry Mack up with Jack Zimmerman, a very famous and strong defense attorney in Houston. So Jack Zimmerman took over the case, and the case went to the grand jury. Jerry Mack was indicted when he had to go and surrender after his indictment. And he surrendered in December of 1993 to the Sheriff's department in Henderson county. The people who came to bail him out were Glenn sod and his own brother Glenn Ronnie Watkins. And they stood bail for. And Jerry's case was then reviewed in court in the following spring, and the trial date was set for August 15th of 1994. And the whole time, Eray Andrews was pushing, pushing, pushing for this case because he was convinced that Jerry Mack Watkins was guilty. And he also, I'm sure, enjoyed the kind of publicity that this case was getting. Now, I don't know that for a fact. That's speculation, but it's a real good. And it's based on a whole lot of hearsay.

B (7:17)

Well, and it fits with his longtime profile.

A (7:21)

Absolutely. Absolutely it does. Meanwhile, he was already getting into hot water with the state attorney general's office. The attorney general had been investigating him starting in that spring for these other scams he was running. So in July, it was either proposed to E. Ray by one of two younger conspirators, a guy to whom he owed money, that there was a possibility that he could make a lot of money. And this was supposedly on July 15th that this agreement occurred, one month exactly before the case was to commence against Jerry Mack Watkins 1st degree murder trial in Athens for the murder of his wife Shelley. Not until that July did this proposition even come up. And I really want to stress that because months and months had gone by in which E. Ray could have cooked up a scheme like that, but he didn't.

B (8:20)

But at that point, he had seen the writing on the wall. He knew that the attorney general's investigators were closing in. And he was aware that he was about to be forced out of office, either forced to resign, maybe facing criminal prosecution of his own. And so at that, he had really nothing left to lose.

A (8:40)

That is true. But whether he proposed the scheme, which is what the FBI agents who you and I, Wes, have interviewed, and they have both said, both of them are named Jeff. I just love that. And the medical examiner in Dallas who interpreted the autopsy report for us is also named Jeff. Interesting collection of Jeffs, anyway, very informative. But they both have been convinced that it was Eray who cooked up the scheme. Eray has claimed that it was the guy who approached him, who cooked up the scheme. I have always held to the notion that it was somebody outside of those three people who actually came up with the idea for the bribery scheme and planted it into the minds of those who would participate. But I have no proof of that.

B (9:30)

And we're hoping that we'll get the case file from the FBI and that will either confirm or deny that suspicion that you've always held.

A (9:38)

That's right. It will be a wonderful revelation to me because I've held this suspicion not just while you and I have been researching and investigating this podcast, not just while I've been researching and investigating the book that I'm writing based on this case, but for the past 28 years. And I had good reason at the time to think this, at any rate. So what happened was that these two guys agreed with E. Ray, or E. Ray agreed with them, whichever it turns out to be to cook up a scheme in which they could make money by offering to get the case dismissed for lack of physical evidence. That one little scrap of insistence that the two investigators had requested the part of the case, a piece of physical evidence. So the bribery scheme got set in motion, and at a certain point, while it was still in negotiation, because they were originally asking for a million dollars, and the negotiator on the other end of the telephone line, which according to Glenn Sod telling me, was Glenn Sod, beat them down to a mere first $350,000 and then $300,000. Now, in the middle of all of that, E. Ray then had to say to his two co conspirators, I cannot take part in this scheme because the case is no longer in my hands. It is going into the hands of one of my assistant das. That was Donna Little. Her name is now Donna Little Bennett. And therefore I cannot prosecute this case and I cannot fulfill the promise of getting the case dismissed. Two co conspirators went ahead with the scheme anyway, because even though Eray had told them that he was going to have to resign his office, and in fact, he stepped down from his office on August 15, 1994, the same day that Jerry's trial was to commence. But by then, the sting operation had already been set in motion and concluded. E. Ray got arrested. The two guys involved in the bribery scheme also got arrested thanks to the sting operation that the FBI and the Texas Ranger, Ray Nutt all conducted in concert and the sheriff's office. The murder case got completely deflected thanks to this bribery scheme. And I'm going to Let you, Wes, explain to our listeners just how and why that happened.

B (12:22)

Yeah. And so I also want to just quickly recap the official story from the FBI point of view. What's been portrayed in newspapers and other reporting. E. Ray Andrews and his buddy Scoob, after an all night high stakes domino game, hatched this scheme to solicit the million dollar bribe from Jerry Mack Watkins, the defendant in his wife's murder case. And Scoob doesn't know Jerry Mack personally, so he goes to a mutual friend or an acquaintance or former business partner or something named John Ward. And so Ward approaches Jerry Mack and makes this proposition. Jerry Mack then goes to his civil attorney, Glenn Sod. And Glenn says, you are not paying that bribe. We're taking this straight to the FBI. And so at that point, Jerry Mack, who had been under investigation for the murder of his wife, now becomes the informant and essentially goes undercover for the FBI and for the Texas Rangers to capture E. Ray and his two co conspirators in this bribery scheme. And so Jerry Mack is wearing a wire. His phone calls are being recorded. They end up making a handoff which leads to the arrest first of John Ward and then Scoob. And it's working its way back up to E. Ray. And so then I think at that point, Scoob goes to E. Ray and E. Ray just says, too late now. You know, I've already handed off the case to my assistant district attorney, Donna Little. It's out of my hands. But at that point, the FBI already had enough evidence to pursue charges against E. Ray. E. Ray ended up pleading guilty to a public corruption charge, the Hobbs Act. And because of that horrible act of corruption, the district attorneys who were left in his wake said, this case is so compromised, we're just going to ask the judge to set it aside and we'll try to bring it back later. Well, they never brought it back. And we're still not quite sure why that is. But now it's been over 30 years.

A (14:23)

So as much for political reasons, the tension had to swerve from pursuing the murder case to pursuing E. Ray because of the bribery scheme. All of these factors collided to more emphasis on the corruption than it did on the actual murder charge.

B (14:42)

Yeah, and that's just never set well with you. I know. And also with me. That law enforcement would prioritize taking down some small time, petty, crooked politician as opposed to seeing through this murder case.

A (14:59)

Exactly. I happen to know from several people who actually worked at Watkins Construction at the time that the day that all of this took place. E. Ray was arrested, and the bribery sting operation went off and went off essentially without a hitch. And Jerry's participation in it finally was known publicly. I happened to know that he came back to his office at Watkins Construction, and everybody in the office started applauding him and haring him as a hero. Oh, good. You have exposed this corruption. And also you've gotten off from the murder charge. And of course, he hadn't gotten off from the murder charge. It had just been suspended and he was given a hero's welcome. When he got back to the office.

B (15:52)

Everybody'S cheering him on.

A (15:53)

Everybody was cheering him at that time.

B (15:56)

Yeah. So why have you always thought that E. Ray was not the one who came up with this bribery scheme in the first place?

A (16:03)

Because way back in 1999, I went and interviewed Glenn Saad at his exotic deer ranch, the refuge, in the office, with his consent and at my father's suggestion. And Glenn told me during that several hours long chat that we had while he chain smoked cigarettes and was telling me the whole inside story of this, he told me about how Jerry had come to him and how he had contacted the FBI. And he told me then that he himself had been wired. But without saying so directly, he made it clear that he thought this whole sting operation was a really great idea. And the implication was that he had come up with it. Now, he didn't come out and say that definitely, but he framed the story in such a way that I thought, oh, okay. I mean, Glenn was a really sharp, smart guy. And as I say, he was a civil attorney. But this was a case that he had started participating in very closely because Jerry Mack was client.

B (17:16)

Yeah. And so he was the hero of his own story, for sure.

A (17:19)

He enjoyed telling me about it. He really did. And I've always thought, oh, okay. I don't think that E. Ray or those two guys, John Ward and Scoob, would have necessarily come up with this idea all by themselves. Because they would have to know what a great legal loophole this would be. That the case could have grounds of dismissal if the DA Decided that, well, you know, we never have gotten any further physical evidence. All we have is circumstantial. Let's just go ahead and drop it and get a big payoff out of it.

B (17:56)

Yeah.

A (17:56)

E. Ray also had promised, apparently as part of the deal, that he would make sure that any remaining circumstantial evidence or the records of any evidence would also be destroyed so that the case could never come back to court. And, Wes, you and I both know that when you went to the district court clerk's office in Athens to look at the case file for this whole case, and you were looking for the search warrant affidavit that justified going in and searching Jerry Mack Watkins residence and surrounding property. That of those five pages, the first and last of which were boilerplate, the three most important pages listing all of the circumstantial evidence without a single paragraph notation typed all the way to the margins. So there was a whole lot of it in there. Those were missing. Somebody had come in and removed them.

B (18:53)

And it would be. It would make sense that E. Ray was the one who trashed those pages to at least partially fulfill his promise of destroying evidence.

A (19:02)

Either eray or somebody friendly to the Jerry Mack Watkins circle, maybe an employee, maybe just a friend. Who knows. We don't know who removed those three pages, but. But we do know it's a felony.

B (19:16)

Yeah.

A (19:16)

That is not a good thing to do.

B (19:18)

Yeah. Because anybody can walk in off the street, request the file, and it would not be too hard to sneak those.

A (19:24)

Pages out, and they would have just committed a crime.

B (19:28)

Yeah. So one thing I'm wondering about. I know why we want to know how the bribery scheme really went down. We want to know whose idea it was. Why does that matter? Does it matter just because we're trying to tell a complete story, or is there some other aspect to it that we need to know?

A (19:46)

Well, it matters very much because it was such a distraction. It was such a major diversion from the murder charge itself, which would certainly also divert any sort of immediate action towards justice for Shelly Watkins, because her murder has never received justice. And that's our aim. That's what you and I are after by telling this entire story. And the story is still unfinished. And we would like to see it really, really finished. And it's possible that it will be.

B (20:19)

Yeah, Agreed. All right. So I just. It just occurred to me, I think I'm also going to call Mike Head, E. Ray's former assistant district attorney, who's been a longtime attorney in Athens and has helped us quite a bit. And also get him to weigh in. Calling my kid.

C (20:44)

Hey, Wes. How are you?

B (20:45)

I'm good, Mike. How you been?

C (20:47)

Good, good.

B (20:48)

You staying warm?

C (20:49)

This whole building we've got doesn't stay very warm in this weather. So we run the heat high, but it still doesn't stay very warm.

B (20:57)

Yeah. I have a two story house, and you got to pick your poison. Do you want to burn up upstairs or freeze your butt downstairs?

C (21:04)

Right. Right now We've got the same dilemma here, for sure.

B (21:09)

We're doing a bonus episode about E. Ray Andrews passing. So I guess I just want to know what that means to you if you reflected on E. Ray and your relationship with him and his legacy.

C (21:20)

Sure. I obviously saw a different side of E. Ray, I guess probably than. Than a lot of people did working for him. And he gave me the opportunity to get started in the DA's office, which really changed the trajectory of my career and getting involved in criminal law. And then when I left the DA's office, having a practice and seeing his demeanor and skills in the courtroom was something that was very beneficial for me as a young lawyer. I know he obviously had his problems, and unfortunately, I think those, from everything I saw, those were rooted in alcohol use and abuse. And tragic to me that he wasn't able to overcome that in his professional life, because I do think he, number one, was a very skilled and talented lawyer, but also the side of him that I saw when he wasn't drinking, he was a very compassionate, caring person who did a lot to help people who were poor or in need. And. And really, I never saw the side of him that I've heard described. And unfortunately, that I think did exist when he was drinking and made really poor decisions. But I just think it was sad that he was never able to overcome that. Happens to a lot of people, unfortunately.

B (22:49)

How do you think his life might have been different if he had overcome his alcoholism and his personal demons, if he hadn't solicited that bribe?

C (22:59)

Well, a couple of things. I think when he was elected da back in 92, I think he had the potential to be an outstanding da. He came from Henderson county, born and raised here. He knew people. He was respected and cared for by people from all different walks of life, and he wasn't drinking then. And I think he really had the opportunity to do a lot of good for a lot of people, and I think he did for a short period of time while he wasn't drinking. And unfortunately, when he started drinking again, I think that all twisted off in a bad direction. Now, I've read the FBI report. Quite honestly, I think the entire bribe scheme was not generated by E. Ray. I think E. Ray was susceptible to poor judgment and bad ideas when he was drinking. And I think he got involved with some people who concocted this scheme. And when he was drinking probably sounded like a good idea to him, which was terrible judgment, but he actually never followed through on any of it, according to the FBI. And there were actually several opportunities when he could have, and he chose not to. And I think what that was probably an indication of was the fact that when he was drinking, he was making poor decisions and commitments to do things that he shouldn't. And then when he was sobered up, he was smart enough to know not to do those things, but it created enough doubt and enough of an issue that it jeopardized the case in a horrible way. But the report indicates that he never followed through. And in fact, at the end said, I'm not going to. I don't even have the authority to anymore. And so I, I think that whole idea was concocted by someone who knew he was vulnerable when he was drinking and, and took advantage of that. And he was in a state where he was susceptible to making agreements that he clearly shouldn't have.

B (25:14)

And we did post that entire FBI report on our newsletter@unforgottenpod.com if people want to read that and make their own judgment. So one of Carol's theories is that the two middlemen who were involved in the bribery solicitation probably wouldn't have been able to think up that scheme either. Is that where your thoughts are leading to, that it might have been someone outside of even those two?

C (25:39)

I certainly think that's a valid theory, yes. Now, I do not think that Jack Zimmerman would have had anything to do with concocting that plan.

B (25:51)

Jack Zimmerman was Jerry Mack's criminal defense attorney.

C (25:54)

I've known Jack for a long time. I think he's very reputable, very honest, very ethical. But any lawyer in his position, if that's thrown in your lap, is going to obviously do what he did and contact the authorities and then be able to use that for the benefit of their client. Now, would I put it past someone else in that camp, so to speak, and the Jerry Macklock and circle to have proposed that idea initially to one of those middlemen. And whether that could have been Jerry Mack himself or someone close to him that knew Ward and began that conversation and then it took off from there, I. I don't know. I can't say where that started from. I don't think it started for me, Ray. And I think the FBI report is pretty clear that it didn't start from era. But the thing, though, you know, one of the things that's really troubling to me about that FBI report is that it appears that the FBI was willing to work with a suspected murderer who would not meet with the authorities in order to remove a DA from office. That clearly they didn't like. If you look back at the interviews with the former FBI agents as well as then the report in light of that, it appears clear that they sat down and received cooperation from Jerry Mack to follow through or attempt to follow through on this bribery scheme and agreed not to discuss any issues related to Shelley's disappearance or death with him when he was refusing to meet with them regarding that. And to me, that's just really unbelievable that they would do that.

B (28:00)

Just jumping in for a quick second to say that both the FBI agents we interviewed told us they had to agree not to ask Jerry Mack any questions about his wife's murder. That was the only way Jerry Mack was willing to participate in their takedown of E. Ray.

C (28:13)

They certainly should have been aware of the fact that was going to jeopardize the murder case prior to getting him involved in that investigation. And it certainly seems to me that the murder of Shelley, the disposal of her body, all of those things rose to a higher level than a DA who had already announced his resignation based on his personal problems and potential legal problems that could have been pursued outside of Jerry Mack's cooperation.

B (28:48)

You know, this is theory that makes sense, but it's always been frustrating and mysterious that we don't really have the answers there. But one thing about E. Ray passing is now the FBI will release its file on him. So we've put in a request for all of the records, the investigation reports, any tapings, witness statements about the case. So we're hoping to be able to trace this back and find out what really happened, how this bribery scheme was actually concocted.

C (29:20)

Right. And I think that's great. And hopefully that will shed some light on it. That may prove my ideas right, or it may prove them wrong about that, but. And they indicate in their report that when he was confronted, when E was confronted, that he admitted that he had engaged in the conversation. I don't recall seeing his actual statement in there. And so I think his statement will be interesting to see what exactly he agrees his role was in that because he did plead guilty. So he did admit that he had a role in it.

B (29:56)

We'll be following up as soon as we get our hands on that information.

C (29:59)

Well, that's good. Hopefully there's something into the thought process of why the FBI and the Justice Department would have felt like it was worthwhile to jeopardize a murder investigation with an indicted suspect over trying to further investigate a bribery scheme from a DA who had already announced that he was resigning. And also, I don't understand I really don't understand why they would have agreed to talk with Jerry Mack and work with Jerry Mack, but not demanded that he cooperate in the investigation regarding Shelley. I don't understand why that would not have been a part of that, that they at least demanded that he answer the question regarding her disappearance and death, which he had refused repeatedly to meet with law enforcement regarding that.

B (30:53)

I guess maybe they felt it wasn't in their jurisdiction or wasn't a federal matter, so maybe to them it was irrelevant, but it definitely had horrible consequences.

C (31:05)

Right. And while I think that's true, I think they do work with state and local authorities as well. And I. I think they made that decision for whatever reason. That quite honestly doesn't make sense to me. And in hindsight, I know you've got.

B (31:22)

To go pretty soon. Any other thoughts on that or on E. Ray? No.

C (31:27)

You know, obviously was sad to see that he had passed. I'd stopped by to see him several times there in Malakoff. You know, obviously everyone makes mistakes in their life, and he certainly made quite a few that were serious and had consequences. But I always appreciated the fact that he gave me the opportun to go to work in the DA's office. And I saw a side of him as a young attorney when he wasn't drinking, that I thought he had a tremendous amount of potential and skill and really did have a caring compassion for people who needed help that I saw. So for me, as, and I guess as a criminal defense attorney, maybe we look to try to find the best in people. And also as a Christian, I think we should forgive people for their faults because Lord knows we have our own. Unfortunately, what happened in that case, as well as some other situations, are things that will dominate his legacy. Unfortunately.

B (32:24)

That was Mike Head Eray Andrews, former Assistant District Attorney. Carol, do you have anything to add about E. Ray's legacy? Just looking back on the totality of.

A (32:33)

His life, I think it's very sad. I think that this was an intelligent and talented man who was a schemer, obviously, but he was a schemer because he was a slave to his own addictions and his own vices. And we already know that he was a gambler. We know that he gambled with Carolyn Taylor, who lived directly across the street from Jerry Mack and Shelly Watkins and who ran her gambling house and was known as the Poker Queen of Texas. We know Irey placed bets with her which would have put him right at the site, the alleged suspected site of Shelly's murder. I've always thought that was really interesting. But to have that kind of confirmation of intimacy with the immediate parties is also very interesting. There's just a lot of connections to unpack here. And in fact, E. Ray, in my view, and his role became part of this whole web of connection. And I am hoping that the FBI files will be even more illuminating as to aspects of E. Ray's life that you and I probably don't know about yet. But he's left quite a legacy because he certainly did publicly expose the city of Athens and Henderson county as a potentially very corrupt political infrastructure. And it's got a bad reputation since because of that, even though I know there are a lot of very good, strong, virtuous civil servants in Athens who really care about serving the citizenry, serving the public, and really do not want this heavy cloud of corruption hanging over their heads.

B (34:23)

Yeah, it's really sad that his legacy of crime and corruption still sways people's opinions of Henderson county to this day. So I know you've been furiously reporting this story throughout this, the first part of 2025 now, and so much of it we are not at liberty to publicly disclose. But there are some things, some updates that you want to give. Do you want to start with what you've learned about Jerry Mack Watkins activities over the past, I guess since the podcast came out?

A (34:55)

You bet. Every day I receive information from people. I mean, literally every day, almost all of it is off the record. I can never, ever disclose those people's names. I cannot disclose what they are telling me because unless we can back up information that with an actual source that we can make public, we have the journalistic ethical obligation to remain absolutely silent. But all of these people who come to me with pieces of information are incredibly helpful because they help show me the bigger picture in little patchwork pieces that can be stitched together. And I very much want to thank them and reiterate my appreciation for everything that they contribute because everything provides insight. And when I'm given further names to check out, that's really useful. I have recently had confirmed by two different people in the industry that Jerry Mack Watkins in Watkins Construction is in that back in December, Jerry Mack Watkins made the decision to sell an enormous amount of heavy and light equipment at auction at Ritchie Brothers in Fort Worth. This took place in mid December, and we're talking about millions and millions and millions of dollars worth of equipment, some of which was auction almost new. This came in to me from people I don't know who turned out to simply be observers and participants in the industry and who have Said, yeah, we know for sure that all this equipment got sold. And we have really wondered why, because that's not such a usual thing. Now, Jerry has always bought and sold equipment. It's always been a fundamental part of his business. But to do so on such a large scale actually excited comment and interest from other people in his same industry. And they, out of the blue, contacted you, Wes and me separately and said the reason that the person who contacted me told me that he had been given as the reason for this big overhaul, this big shift, that it was because he wanted. Jerry wanted to modify his equipment roster to more closely match the work that he has on hand right now. But this person did not feel that was a very real or a legitimate reason, considering the amount of equipment that he was auctioning off. Over the past few months, there have been other movements within Jerry Mack's behaviors, financially, that are quite different from his previous patterns. For instance, I know from two different people to whom he owed a great deal of money over a period of years, one of whom had actually filed a lawsuit against him, and he had never shown up for the deposition. That's how much in disdain he held his debt to this person whose company was owed a lot of money by Jerry. All of a sudden, this past summer, after our podcast started coming out, he started paying people off, and he paid these two people off. And he seems to be shifting property and money around. We're not really sure why. What has prompted this. He's also committed a recent large act of philanthropy that breaks a pattern in Jerry Mack's life of zero philanthropy.

B (38:31)

That we know of. Right?

A (38:33)

That we know of. That we know of. And it has been suggested to me that he is changing the patterns of behavior in these ways in order to curry goodwill within the community and elsewhere, to clean his slate, in other words. It also has been reported to me, and this is strictly hearsay and gossip. I have no idea if there's any foundation at all that certain workers within his company have shared or talked about, how he has a plan if anything happens to him, and we know that he has had cancer, but that he is supposedly completely cured of that. Now, if anything happens to him, if anything should suddenly come up, there are plans for the company to be taken care of.

B (39:19)

So he's making some donations. He's engendering some goodwill in his community in Corsicana going back to the sale of the equipment. In your opinion, how is that relevant to our interest in this story?

A (39:33)

Jerry Mack is still only 71 years old, and his father lived to be much older than that when he died. Jerry Mack has always been very much in control of the business of Watkins Construction and has made sure that even though he had put his nephew Scott in the position of president, he was very much the ruler. For him to suddenly divest that much equipment from the company suggests that he is making certain arrangements or changes in the company and perhaps in his own life. And there have been people in the past couple of weeks who have driven past various Watkins construction equipment yards. What they know is the fab shop or the fabrication shop, the brickyard, and then the third main Watkins construction site on I45 or just off I45, and who have sent me photographs of those locations that were empty. Now, there is some equipment back at one of those locations, and I have been informed of that now. But if it looks like he is trying to slim down the company or even is looking towards an eventual shutdown of the company, we don't know. But the fact that anytime I have ever driven past that place, it has always had enormous numbers of very expensive, heavy equipment. This is somebody who's in the pipeline business, remember, and has just had, you know, many, many, many, many, many millions of dollars of equipment sitting around in those yards ready to be sent out to whatever jobs require it. And all of a sudden, those yards were either empty or near empty. That's interesting.

B (41:25)

Yeah. Any other updates you want to share?

A (41:28)

Are there any updates that I can share? I have a lot of updates, but because they're off the record, I really cannot violate private communications.

B (41:38)

Yeah, of course. But hoping that we'll be able to do that when the time comes.

A (41:43)

Well, and remember that any contributions that we receive, even when they're absolutely off the record, and we would never violate the privacy of the person who has shared them, remember that everything contributes to the big picture.

B (41:58)

Also, a really great development is that word is still getting out about Shelley's case and the quest for justice for her murder. You were recently interviewed on the Wicked Words podcast with Kate Winkler Dawson. You did such a good job laying out in very clear terms the story and its stakes. And I was recently interviewed on Final Days on Earth True Crime podcast here in Texas. And also you have given a couple of TV interviews recently. And we're going to be sharing the details of those on social media and in our newsletter on forgottenpod.com, so you'll want to be sure to watch that.

A (42:37)

The Dallas Fort Worth channel to turn to or to find on your Internet service is Channel eight, wfaa. That's the ABC affiliate there in Dallas. And the crime reporter who interviewed me is Rebecca Lopez. She is a nearly 30 year veteran of WFAA and she has a huge interest in this case. In addition, the person who interviewed you, Claire Sadamet on her podcast, Final Days on Earth Justice Pending, Wes has a brand new book out that just came out February 18th called Killer the Truth Behind True Crime TV and it makes a fascinating read. I strongly recommend it to our listeners.

B (43:25)

Yeah, I'm excited to read that, too. All right. Anything else?

A (43:29)

Can you think of anything else?

B (43:31)

No. We've definitely covered a lot of ground and as always, it's great to catch up with you and hear about all the twists and turns and the work that you're doing on this case. So I very much appreciate that and I appreciate all of you for listening to this bonus episode of The Unforgotten Season 1, the Labor Day Ghost and we hope to be back soon.

A (43:51)

Thank you very much for joining us. We welcome your attentions and whatever else you want to tell us.

B (43:59)

The Unforgotten is a Free Range production. Season one, the Labor Day Ghost, is created, written and hosted by Carol Dawson and me, Wes Ferguson. I'm the executive producer at Free Range. Our theme song, ghost, was written and recorded by Corsicana's own Will Mechatron Jones.