The Unforgotten – Season 5: Riding Shotgun
Episode 2: In Your Mind’s Eye
Date: March 30, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the use of investigative hypnosis in the case against Charles Flores, who has spent nearly 30 years on Texas death row. The prosecution's key eyewitness changed her story after being hypnotized by police—a practice that was widespread in Texas for decades but is now outlawed. The episode explores how hypnosis affects memory and its controversial role in the criminal justice system, while interweaving first-hand hypnosis experiences, expert testimony on memory science, and the series’ ongoing investigation into the facts of the case.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Firsthand Experience: What Is It Like To Be Hypnotized?

• Michelle Pitcher, the host, undergoes hypnosis with Marks Howell, a former DPS detective, to better understand the experience.
• Setting: A public library study room; visible to bystanders, which adds a humorous and slightly awkward dimension.
  • [00:59] “So he holds up my fingers to draw my gaze up, and then he has me close my eyes he moves my arms around until they feel heavy, and then he lets them drop. He asks me to think about a happy childhood memory.” (Michelle Pitcher, Narrator)
• Michelle finds the process relaxing, but does not discover any new or clearer details in her memory.
  • [04:24] “I guess overall, the memory doesn't feel much clearer to me then than it ever had before.” (Jeff Ashebranner, Narrator for Michelle)

Notable Moment

• Comparison to popular perceptions of hypnosis as mind control (“the python from the Jungle Book,” stage hypnotists) vs. real experience.
  • [06:30] Marks Howell: "They want you to believe that you're zonked out in the world ... and you're not zonked out. It's nothing more than a state of relaxation."

Big Takeaway

• Hypnosis is not about mind control but relaxation; it may allow memories to surface but doesn't guarantee clarity or accuracy.

2. The Rise and End of Investigative Hypnosis in Texas

• Texas used police hypnosis much more than other states—over 800 officers certified, close to 2,000 cases (1979–2021).
  • [07:53] Wes Ferguson: “Yeah. You reported that more than 800 officers got certified over that 40 year span. And hypnosis was used in nearly 2,000 cases. And that's just in Texas.”
• The Dallas Morning News’ reporting on problematic hypnosis cases leads to the technique being outlawed in Texas in 2023.
  • [08:21] Michelle Pitcher: “That article ... led to the change in policy and ultimately the change in the law.”

Marks Howell’s Perspective

• Sees hypnosis as a tool for relaxation to help memory—not a way to extract hidden truths or control minds.
  • [08:49] Marks Howell: "There's a lot of definitions about hypnosis, and nobody can agree on one of them ... the way I see hypnosis is nothing more than relaxation."

3. The Charles Flores Case: Hypnosis and Eyewitness Memory

Jill Bargainier’s Hypnosis Session

• Jill, a key neighbor witness, requests hypnosis hoping it will help her remember details.
• Officer Ron Serna, newly certified, conducts his first (and only) session.
  • [13:19] Michelle Pitcher: “Jill actually requested the hypnosis herself … and thought that that would be a good way for her to relax and potentially remember more about what she saw out of her window.”
  • [13:51] Michelle Pitcher: “This was his first time trying to hypnotize somebody.”
• Jill’s memory becomes more vivid, but the session does not uncover new or conclusive information.
  • [19:24] Michelle Pitcher, Narrator: “The hypnosis session doesn't uncover any new explosive information. Jill says she felt like she could see the scene a lot better, but there are still certain parts she's unsure about.”
• Notably, Jill originally described two white men with long hair, a detail she stuck by before and after hypnosis.

Impact on the Case

• Despite sticking with her original description, police later show Jill a photo lineup that does not include anyone fitting her description, including Charles Flores (who is Hispanic, bald or with short hair).
  • [27:19] Narrator / Michelle Pitcher: “Instead, it's all Hispanic men, bald or with short cropped hair. Charles Flores's Picture is number two.”
• After hypnosis and failed identification, police issue a warrant for Flores anyway, based on other (unspecified) evidence.
  • [32:05] Narrator / Michelle Pitcher: “Remember, after her hypnosis interview, Jill Bargainier still didn't pick Charles Flores out of the lineup. But police Issued a warrant for his arrest two days later.”

Contradictory Witness Accounts

• Multiple witnesses recall different hair colors, times, and details about the suspects and car.
• Some inconsistencies seem explainable as memory quirks; others remain inexplicable.

4. Memory Science and Eyewitness Testimony

Key Expert: Prof. John Wickstead, UC San Diego

• Forensic memory expert, now focusing on the dynamics of real-world eyewitness memory.
  • [21:32] John Wickstead: “The science is way more interesting than how prosecutors and defense attorneys think about memory. The truth is way more interesting than that.”
• The first recollection of a witness is the most reliable; repeated questioning and suggestion (e.g., lineups, hypnosis, media reports) steadily degrade reliability.
  • [23:10] John Wickstead: “That's before much forgetting has happened before. Much contamination. Memory contamination has happened. That's where you get the most reliable information.”

Notable Quote:
[23:28] John Wickstead: “Test a witness's memory only once, because even that test changes. It doesn't leave their memory the way it was. It changes their memory, especially for the people in the lineup.”

• The lineup shown to Jill violated scientific standards by not matching her description, increasing risk of contamination.
  • [27:27] John Wickstead: “A cardinal rule, science based rule since 1988 ... everyone in the lineup should match the witness's description of the perpetrator. That's a fair lineup.”

The Role of Emotion and External Influence

• Prof. Holly Bowen, SMU: Memory is reconstructive, influenced by emotions, repeated retrieval, and new information (media leaks included).
  • [25:35] Holly Bowen: “So we know that memory is not just this video recording of everything that happens and you just play it back. But it's actually this reconstructive process…”
• Example: Jill’s description of the VW Bug changes from "pink and yellow" (initial) to "pink and purple" (after media reports).
  • [26:09] Michelle Pitcher, Narrator: “the Dallas Morning News had run a description of the car, saying it was pink and purple. It seems possible Jill's memory of that morning was already starting to shift based on the new information she was getting.”

5. The Lineup, Discrepancies, and Aftermath

• Witnesses gave conflicting details about times and suspects’ appearances.
  • Jill Bargainier, Michelle Babler (neighbor), and their children all recall events differently.
  • There is a major, unresolved time discrepancy between Jill and Michelle’s accounts of when the VW Bug pulled up.
    • [30:16] Michelle Pitcher: “So that's obviously quite a difference, especially because one of them would have been before sunrise.”
    • [30:31] Narrator / Michelle Pitcher: “So it’s questionable how you could have seen if you were standing in the house with all the lights on, you look out the window. If it’s dark outside, you’re going to see your reflection back.”

Investigators' Dilemma

• With no physical or DNA evidence, police and listeners alike are tasked with picking which witness memories are most credible—a subjective and uncertain process.
  • [31:12] Wes Ferguson: “Are there any explanations for these little discrepancies?”
  • [31:16] Narrator / Michelle Pitcher: “No.”
• This “patchwork” and the selectivity of police in following memory evidence is, as the hosts say, why Flores is still on death row and why the case remains controversial.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• [06:30] Marks Howell: "It's nothing more than a state of relaxation." (on hypnosis)
• [23:28] John Wickstead: "Test a witness's memory only once, because even that test changes … You can't fairly test their memory again and get more reliable information."
• [27:27] John Wickstead: "Everyone in the lineup should match the witness's description of the perpetrator. That's a fair lineup."
• [34:43] Charles Flores: "People say you run because you're guilty and this and that. But yeah, you also run when you're afraid. You also run when you know you've been set up." (on fleeing after becoming a suspect)

Important Timestamps

• 00:59–04:24: Michelle’s firsthand hypnosis experience with Marks Howell
• 07:53–08:34: History, controversy, and downfall of police hypnosis in Texas
• 13:19–19:24: Detailed breakdown of Jill Bargainier’s hypnosis and findings
• 21:32–24:31: John Wickstead explains the science of eyewitness memory and the critical “first test”
• 25:35–26:44: Holly Bowen on memory as a reconstructive process; impact of media leaks on witness recall
• 27:13–28:04: Police present Jill with a mismatched photo lineup, violating scientific standards
• 30:06–31:08: Discrepancies between witness accounts, the challenge of constructing a credible timeline
• 32:25–34:43: Charles Flores describes becoming a suspect and his perspective on being implicated

Conclusion: Themes and Implications

• The episode critically examines the trustworthiness of witness memory, the contaminating effects of investigative techniques and external information, and the devastating consequences of these factors in life-and-death cases.
• While hypnosis is often mythologized, in practice it is simply a form of guided relaxation—with dubious usefulness for precise memory recall and real dangers for memory contamination.
• Scientific advances now starkly contradict the way eyewitness memory has been handled in cases like Charles Flores’s—raising troubling questions about how justice is reached in the absence of objective evidence.

For those interested in wrongful convictions, memory science, and the criminal justice system, this episode is both a primer and a provocative case study—interweaving personal narrative, history, and expert voices to illuminate a complex and ongoing controversy.