9. The Unknown

Summary

The Unforgotten – Season 2, Episode 9: "The Unknown"

Date: December 9, 2024
Host: Charlie Scudder (Free Range Productions)
Theme: A deep dive into the lingering questions following the killing spree of Billy Chemirmir—examining systemic vulnerabilities, family trauma, and the elusive search for justice and closure.

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Episode Overview

This episode, "The Unknown," concludes the investigation into the serial killings committed by Billy Chemirmir in Texas’ senior living communities. Rather than focusing solely on Chemirmir or his gruesome end, the narrative centers on the failures and challenges of the systems meant to protect the elderly, the families' struggles for answers and closure, and the broader societal obligation to safeguard vulnerable populations. The episode weaves together survivor interviews, family reflections, expert insights, and an unflinching look at the weight of unresolved questions.

“But this podcast, this story, isn’t about Billy Chemirmir, not really. It’s about the systems that he used to target his victims for a quick buck. It’s about the dozens of older adults that he killed and how there could be dozens more that we’ll never know about.” – Charlie Scudder [02:21]

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Billy Chemirmir's Death and its Aftermath

• Chemirmir Murdered in Prison: Chemirmir was killed by his cellmate in the Caulfield unit during a 2023 Texas prison lockdown ([00:01]).
  • Details of the murder remain scant due to an ongoing investigation.
  • Both law enforcement and Chemirmir’s own family are left with questions and limited information.
• Implications for Victims’ Families:
  • Mixed reactions—some feel a sense of closure, others are angered by perceived lack of justice and the inability to have their loved one’s case seen in court.
  • Some view his death as “a kind of justice from God,” others as an evasion of true justice ([02:00–02:30], [41:03]).

Notable Quote:

“Having him no longer breathing on the face of the earth, I can't say that it has given me peace. But I don't think about him...I definitely feel lighter... just knowing that he is no longer breathing.”
—Shannon Dion [40:06–40:41]

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2. Senior Living, Independence, and Security

• Residents Share Their Perspectives:
  • Independence and community are often priorities for residents choosing such communities—even more than security.
  • Social engagement and autonomy actually increase for some, shattering common stereotypes about the “finality” of moving to senior care ([03:44–06:58]).
  • Decisions are often made to relieve family anxiety and provide a support network.

Notable Quotes:

“There’s life, and they need to— they need to explore it and enjoy it… If you sit at home and watch TV all day and feel sorry for yourself, that’s no way to live.”
—Susie [07:17]

“What people need to understand is this is a small town. I mean, it really is... it doesn’t bother you, because you play cards with the people over here or mahjong with somebody over there.”
—Linda [04:27]

• Balancing Autonomy and Safety:
  • Host Charlie Scudder discusses the tension between safeguarding elders and infringing on their independence ([07:49–10:03]).
  • Geriatrician Michael Wasserman reframes senior living:

“When I was 17, I went off to college… Why can’t we look at a nursing home the same way? And if a nursing home functions that same way, why not enjoy it the same way I enjoyed college?”
—Dr. Michael Wasserman [10:03]

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3. Complexities and Dilemmas of Elder Care

• Where Do You Want to Age?
  • Elders, family members, and professionals express uncertainty: everyone wants dignity, safety, and not to become a “burden” ([12:16–16:31]).
  • Some fear institutional living; others worry about being alone at home.
  • A major concern is financial: better options often come at much higher cost.

Notable Quote:

“The only priority for me right now is—I don't want to be a burden to my daughters... I don't want them to feel like they have to take care of me. And I certainly, to dear Lord God, don’t want them ever to have to worry about me being in danger.”
—Victim’s daughter [13:18]

• Security Shortcomings:
  • Families learned, often too late, to ask about background checks, security cameras, and staffing practices ([16:31–17:49]).

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4. The Scale of Chemirmir’s Crimes: Counting the Unknown

• Number of Victims Uncertain:
  • Chemirmir was charged with 22 murders and 2 attempted murders, but most charges were dismissed after conviction, leaving just two recognized by the state ([21:12–21:50]).
  • The process of identifying other potential victims is complex: paperwork inconsistencies, unreported thefts, and procedural obstacles block concrete answers.
  • Some deaths remain "natural" or "undetermined" officially, despite family and circumstantial evidence suggesting otherwise.

Notable Quotes:

“I don't think it's—that we're missing it. I think we don’t have any evidence to support any more death investigations that he’s responsible for… But is he responsible for more, do I believe? Absolutely. I believe he is, yeah.”
—Det. Paul Martinez [24:56]

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5. Systemic Barriers to Justice, Transparency, and Change

• Obfuscation and Institutional Gaps:
  • Senior communities’ protocols sometimes hid deaths from official records; e.g., policies to always transport unresponsive residents to hospitals, shifting the place-of-death away from the facility ([26:14]).
  • Families and investigators frequently encountered dead-ends when seeking records, autopsy reports, or even basic answers from authorities.
  • Media attention and accountability remain deeply lacking, per many families.

“They have done nothing in a lot of cases to upgrade the security to protect those people...they’re not going to do any more than is expected of them because it’s going to cost them money, and it’s all about making money.”
—Cheryl Pangburn [43:09]

• Pain of Incomplete Resolution:
  • Many families are haunted by unanswered questions and dismissed charges ([36:39–38:02]).
  • Exhumations, lost jewelry, and the ongoing sense of being sidelined by the justice system compound their trauma ([33:06], [36:39]).

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6. The Ongoing Toll on Families

• Layers of Grief and Trauma:
  • Grief lingers and resurfaces unpredictably—with triggers as small as an unexpected knock on the door by maintenance ([35:41]).
  • Exhumations and lack of justice feel like renewed wounds.
  • New life events, like new grandchildren or marriages, are forever shadowed by absence ([34:23–35:55]).
  • Despite Chemirmir’s death, a sense of injustice and ageism persists among the survivors.

Notable Quotes:

“It never occurred to me that my mom would never see a day in court… It just made my blood boil. But that and the way they dismissed the cases, and it’s like they dismissed our moms.”
—Karen Harris [37:32–38:02]

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

• [00:01]: Opening recounts Chemirmir’s prison death and secrecy attendant to the investigation.
• [05:38]: Discussion around the paradox of senior care—between security and freedom.
• [10:03]: Dr. Wasserman compares well-functioning retirement living to college communal life.
• [13:18]: Victim’s daughter poignantly articulates the wish not to be a burden, nor to have her children worry.
• [21:12–24:56]: Methodological challenges in uncovering the true scale of Chemirmir’s crimes, Detective testimonies.
• [33:06]: Families recount trauma of exhuming loved ones for posthumous investigations.
• [36:39]: Frustration at dropped charges, perceived ageism and disregard by legal system.
• [41:03]: Cheryl Pangburn describes being angry at Chemirmir’s death, feeling it deprived her of justice.
• [43:09]: Critique of the elder care industry’s reluctance to enact change absent regulation or financial incentive.

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Conclusion

"The Unknown" brings the painful ambiguity at the heart of the Chemirmir case into sharp focus. The episode underscores how systemic blindspots—ranging from elder care industry practices, to law enforcement limitations, to societal ageism—perpetuate trauma and allow justice, and even basic dignity for victims, to slip through the cracks.

Rather than providing easy answers, the episode leaves listeners with the unsettling knowledge that many victims may remain unnamed and uncounted, that families’ wounds are often unrecognized, and that the fight for meaningful protections for the elderly is far from over.

“Many, many other victims could remain unknown, unidentified but not forgotten.” —Charlie Scudder [43:55]

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Episode Key Segments & Timestamps

• [00:01] – Chemirmir’s prison death & initial reactions
• [03:44] – Residents’ reflections on moving to senior living
• [07:49] – The paradox of autonomy versus surveillance in elder care
• [10:03] – Reframing senior living with Dr. Michael Wasserman
• [12:16] – Where do you want to age? (families, advocates, experts respond)
• [21:12] – How many victims? The challenge of counting the unknown
• [25:12] – Systemic barriers to investigation
• [33:06] – The trauma of exhumations and lingering grief
• [36:39] – Legal frustrations; the impact of dismissed charges
• [41:03] – Varied responses to Chemirmir’s death and the state of justice
• [43:09] – Critique of the elder care industry and push for reform

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Tone:
Respectful, direct, and empathetic. The voices of survivors, families, and advocates are centered—in their own words—balancing sorrow, anger, and hope for change.

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For further context or previous episodes, listeners are encouraged to begin with the series’ first chapters, which lay the groundwork for this complex, painful, and important tale.

Transcript

[A]

In the fall of 2023, Texas prisons were on lockdown. Sixteen inmates had been killed, many in drug related violence. And the state's Department of Criminal justice decided to put all 129,000 prisoners in all 100 of its prisons on a temporary lockdown. In the Caulfield unit in East Texas, Billy Shamirmere was locked in with a cellmate. At some point in the early morning hours of September 19, 2023, that cellmate pulled out something sharp. He stabbed and beat Shamirmir to death, leaving him to bleed out on the floor of their cell. I've written letters to the cellmate and tried asking the Texas Department of Criminal justice more questions about the murder, but was told that because it's an open investigation, no additional information is available. And I'm not the only one that's been left in the dark. What we were told that he was beaten to death for making some remarks to his cellmate, something sexually against his kids or something like that. This is Plano Detective Paul Martinez, who led the investigation into Shamir Mir's crimes. So some kind of blunt object, possibly a pen, I heard. You know, again, don't know. I tried getting my own copy of the death certificate or autopsy report and I'm told that it's an ongoing murder investigation, so I couldn't even get it. I even tried to get investigated. Yes. Yeah, so I see your end of it because I even reached out as an investigator and said, hey, this is who I am involved with and I'm just curious as an investigator, kind of some of the details I got crickets. According to his ex girlfriend, the one that we've decided not to name in this podcast, Shamir Mir's body was released to his family, who planned a funeral in the days after. She told me that Shamir Mir's family called her soon after asking if she'd come to the funeral and bring his son. They did not attend the service. The ex girlfriend told me that it's been hard, but that when she thinks of the pain and suffering of Shamir Mir's victims, she wonders if his murder was a kind of justice from God. But this podcast, this story, isn't about Billy Shomirmir, not really. It's about the systems that he used to target his victims for a quick buck. It's about the dozens of older adults that he killed and how there could be dozens more that we'll never know about. It's about how all of us and all our older loved ones could be vulnerable to the same kinds of attacks. Knowing everything we know now, how should we help our elders make the most important decisions about how they spend their final years? When the time comes, how should we make those decisions for ourselves? I'm Charlie Scudder, and this is the unnatural causes. Chapter 9 the Unknown at Highland Springs, the independent living community we visited in the first episode, I asked Linda Prickett and her neighbors Ruth Hunt and Susie Kimbrough a lot about the security they saw each day. They needed a key card or key fob to enter the property and another to enter their building. Each of the doors were locked and there were many cameras in all the public areas of the community. But I know that's not the only reason they moved out of their homes and into this community. What made y' all move here? What did you consider when moving into this place? Susie answers first.

[B]

My parents lived in one. They lived at the Edgemere when it was first opened. And I could see what a wonderful place it was for my dad, especially because he had men that were there that he could be comrades with. And Mother enjoyed it. I just knew that's what I wanted to do. I lived on a golf course.

[A]

This is Ruth.

[B]

And I really wasn't thinking about moving into the place like this. And as I began to think about it, I thought, last year my children were all out of the country at the same time, and they really worry about me. So I did it for my children and I'm happy here.

[A]

And here's Linda.

[B]

My husband had open heart surgery two years ago. And kind of at the same time, I was playing pickleball, fell and broke my hip. And we found out really quickly that I did a lot more than anybody thought I did. I recovered very quickly. He is still recovering. So we realized how important it was that we be somewhere safe. And we loved our house. We'd been there 43 years and so many of our friends, husbands, were dying and they were left alone and how hard it was. And of course, everybody that lives here told us what a wonderful place it is for widows and for health. So those were the two biggies for us moving here. What people need to understand is this is a small town. I mean, it really is. And then it's got a population of that. But it doesn't bother you because you play cards with the people over here or you play farfle with somebody over there, or mahjong, if you name a game, it's played here on many tables.

[A]

You know, this is really interesting because I do think that all the time that I've worked on this, there's been a lot of conversation about balancing concerns about security, making sure that people are safe with the need for autonomy, the desire for independence. Right. You know, and to hear that this is a freeing experience, I'll be honest, I don't know. I expected that.

[B]

It's a social experience that I was not expecting because everybody that's moved in recently, we're all anxious to meet each other and we go to dinner and sit with different people. We don't just go by ourselves, we meet other people and sit with other people. My husband was a social one in our family. He loved everybody and everyone loved him. And so I am much more social here than I would have been had I not been here. And that's probably really great for my.

[A]

Kids and for me.

[B]

I've always been social. What can I say? I just love the people. Overall, it's just a wonderful experience that I wish everybody had. And a lot of them, they don't have full time care like we do. We're very fortunate. We really are.

[A]

There is this stereotype of oh, grandma's moved into a place, you know, this is the end, right? When that's not the case, what do you think people should know about being in this stage of life?

[B]

There's life and they need to, they need to explore it and enjoy it. And unless if you sit at home and watch TV all day and feel sorry for yourself, that's no way to live. And it's just amazing you can even start. They have over 65 places that people can enjoy life. I just can't. Of course, I'm a people person and so I can't imagine somebody not doing that.

[A]

It was interesting to hear Linda, Ruth and Susie talk about living in a senior community as a way to keep their children from worrying. So much of. What I've thought about when reporting this story is how we as children and grandchildren and should be more concerned about our parents safety. To hear them say that making this move was first and foremost a way to alleviate that stress made me think of this whole idea of senior care in a different way. These are healthy, rational, thoughtful adults. They are not a group of people to be pitied or dismissed. They can and do make their own decisions. In many ways they can and do care for themselves. But that also comes with vulnerabilities. It's difficult because showing that we care for our older loved ones doesn't mean locking them away, but it does mean keeping an eye out when they're not able to. Of course they should deserve autonomy. The ability to have control over their lives, to be able to go where they please and see who they want to see as long as it doesn't put them or others at risk. And every step that we take to, to keep them safe is also a step into their privacy. And that's where the complication is. Who gets to decide that? Who gets to decide how much security they need or how much privacy they deserve? Do they get to make those decisions? Should we, should we lock older adults in secure buildings with key card access like the strictest memory care nursing homes, or should we allow them the ability to come and go alongside the risks inherent within with that openness? I asked the geriatrician. You've heard from Michael Wasserman about those assumptions I had and why they're not always accurate. I went into this thinking, okay, you're moving into, in this case, more of a retirement community, independent living community as giving something up. You're moving away from your home, you're, you know, going into an apartment. And it's much more, it's liberating almost.

[B]

So, so it's funny, I always say to people, when I was 17, I went off to college. I had a roommate. I went to the dining hall to eat every day. I participated in any number of activities. Why can't we look at a nursing home the same way? And if a nursing home functions that same way, why not enjoy the nursing home the same way I enjoyed college? I think that's part and parcel to what you're saying. And at the same time, I just turned 65 and I'm on Medicare. I'm officially a senior by every definition. My wife and I have had this discussion, you know, and we're looking at where we want to be. And on a certain level, you're right. Not having to worry about the plumbing and let someone else worry about it, not having to deal with all those other things could actually be very freeing if done properly.

[A]

What Wasserman said there at the end about the plans he's personally making for his own life as a senior got me thinking. As we've heard throughout this series, there's no single solution for how to age in a way that's healthy, safe and independent. I started asking everyone, where do you want to age? Have you made those plans? I want to let you hear all of those answers because it shows how difficult these decisions can be. We'll start with David Schless, the American Senior Housing association president. And then you'll hear from a few of the families of Shamir's Ellen House, Shannon Dion, Karen Harris, Robert and Scott McPhee, and Cheryl Pangburn. At the end of this section, you'll also hear from Josh Alleman, the Edgemere security guard, and two of the Plano detectives. You had heard from John Hoffman and Paul Martinez. Here's David Schless to start us off. My wife and I haven't really talked about, you know, specifically, but, you know, I've.

[B]

Over the years, I've visited lots of.

[A]

Senior housing and I. I abs.

[B]

Absolutely could see myself, and I know.

[A]

My wife would say the same thing.

[B]

Moving into a senior housing community.

[A]

I happen to.

[B]

I happen to like the, you know.

[A]

The, the life plan or the continuing care retirement communities that have different, you know, different levels of care if you.

[B]

Should, you know, if you should need them.

[A]

If knowing what you know now and having gone through all of this stuff. Have you had any thoughts about where you would like to live as you get older?

[B]

I have had thoughts about it, but I think I would hire somebody to come into my home. But as you and I both know.

[A]

That can have its problems as well.

[B]

And I'm fortunate that at this stage.

[A]

In my life I could do that.

[B]

I would not go into one of those places only because I also think that it is just Charlie. I could go any one of these places tomorrow and I could pull the whole thing off really easily because it just. It was easy for him. Yeah, I don't have an answer yet. The. The only priority for me right now is I don't want to be a burden to my daughters. And what does that look like? I don't want them to feel like they have to take care of me. And I certainly, to dear Lord God, don't want them to ever have to worry about me being in danger. And I don't have an answer today. So I gotta live a little bit longer. Oh, I've thought about it so much. I'm scared to death of those facilities now. It's hard to think about. It's hard to visualize myself at my mom's age and think about where I might be. You know, like my ideal would be to live with my kids. And I don't know that they want that burden, but. And I think, what will it be like for me? And am I going to be terrified to live alone in one of those places? And I sure hope I don't have to, and I sure hope I'm not afraid.

[A]

One question I've started asking everybody, given everything that you know now, everything that you went through, have you put Any thought, either of you put any thought to how you want to grow old, where you would want to be? Not really.

[B]

Probably not as much as I should, but to be.

[A]

To be honest. Right.

[B]

Yeah. You're a lot older than I am.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I'm a lot closer to that.

[B]

But.

[A]

But I'm a lot healthier than you are too. Especially now. Look at you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so you spent time with Susie Kimbrough.

[B]

Right. That's ideally, that's where we all end up. And we're independent.

[A]

And I think what we haven't done.

[B]

Is spent the time to think about.

[A]

The what if scenarios. I think our parents did a really good job of that, to be honest with you.

[B]

I think our mom and dad did.

[A]

A good job of planning as best they could for when they got older. They had everything all put together and.

[B]

Probably are better than 99% of the world.

[A]

I think I'm still in the 99%.

[B]

I need to figure out how to become part of that 1% that's actually doing a better job of planning for it. I have put some thought into the fact that I feel sorry for my children, our children who have experienced this, the grandchildren, that what they will feel someday if they have to make this decision and how hard it will be for them. And as much as I would like to say I would like to take care of myself in such a way that I don't ever have to be put in the care of someone else, the reality is I just. I might.

[A]

We're of the age to where it's probably more like our parents, but have you thought at all about how you will help your parents make the decisions about where they grow old? Yeah, I mean, it's a. It's a. I know what questions to ask for sure. If they were in that kind of position where they needed to be at a retirement home or an assisted living or something, immediately, obviously cameras, I would. I would get personal cameras for them in their. In their rooms, you know, if need be, looking through, looking at their doorway to see who comes in. I would put a sign up saying that we got cameras. Like, I think anything you can do to. To show that they are not an easy target, that's what I would do.

[B]

I think I would be much more inquisitive about security. I don't know how many places that security videos. Some of the cameras weren't working. I think I would ask a lot more questions. You know, how they do their background checks. Do people have to sign in? Hopefully, if I have to be in a facility like that. Someday I'll be coherent enough to ask those things, or at least I'll have my kids taught well enough to ask them on my behalf. I hope.

[A]

I want to be with my family if all possible, but at the same time, you don't want to be a burden to your family either. So I see the necessity for some of these communities, and there's some that are better than others and, you know, but then sometimes those that are better than others sometimes are the ones that cost much more. You know, kind of like when you look for daycare for children. It's kind of the same aspect, you know, just on the different spectrum of the age now. You know, it comes down to what you can afford and what you're comfortable with. I worry about this myself. I told you in our first episode how my family was thinking about moving my mom into a new community at the time the investigation into Shamir Mir's crimes began. That's my dad's mom. My mom's mom, Nanny died while I was in high school. She had lived for several years at a nursing home that was, well, awful. Dimly lit, a constant smell of urine and antiseptic. It was the kind of place you worry about sending your loved ones. But it was all that was available for her at the time. Things would often go missing, like an heirloom piece of jewelry, handmade blanket. We didn't know who snatched them, but we just brushed it off like the police did during the years of Shamir Mir's killing spree. Stuff goes missing in a place like that. In fact, just a few weeks ago, my mom texted me after she listened to the first few episodes of this podcast. She said it made her rethink even more of her mother's valuables that went missing during those years, including her wedding ring, which was taken right from Nanny's finger. Like Norma French, that experience with Nanny was in the back of my mind when my family started looking at places for my other grandmother, Ma Ma. When my family settled on an age in place community, we did so in part because of the promises of security for her. And again, that's best case scenario. I know that my family and Ma Ma were privileged because we have the resources to provide that level of care for her. Millions of older adults don't have that choice. The last time I visited Mam at her apartment was to introduce her to her first great grandson. There were flush chairs, an art room, a calendar full of different clubs and activities, just like at some of the places you've heard about in this podcast like Highland Springs and the Tradition and Edgemere and Preston Place. But I wasn't looking at the amenities. The whole way into the building, down the hall, up the elevator, and into her room. I was looking up, counting cameras. I saw five. One other question has bothered me since I started reporting this case. Nearly everyone I've talked to has expressed some version of the same idea. We'll never really know how many victims there really are. Like Jeffrey Barnard, the Dallas medical examiner, who said he's sure there are many more victims that we just don't know about. Well, I'm convinced there. The 24 homicides that or the deaths that he was charged with, I'm convinced that's the tip of the iceberg. Does that bother you that. Well, I mean, the. The fact of the matter is, is.

[B]

That you would have to get the.

[A]

Police to be able to pull records, and you'd have to find people no.

[B]

One else came forth to kind of.

[A]

Ring the bell that I know about about their loved one in Dallas County. And so you would have to know who that was, where they lived, and then the police would have to try and find cell phone data, because that's the only way that's going to be dealt with. Even now, the number of victims we do have is, well, loose. See, Shamirmer was charged with 22 counts of capital murder and two counts of attempted capital murder. That's 22 deaths. All but two of those, Kim Harris and Sue Brooks, were dismissed after his convictions. So technically, according to the state of Texas, he only killed two women. But that 22 number is flawed, too. It doesn't account for Kathy Sinclair, Saul Spring, or a Jane Doe who was mentioned in Trey Crawford's lawsuits against Preston Place. Jeffrey Barnard, the medical examiner, said he didn't find enough evidence to change their causes of death to homicide, so they remain natural causes or undetermined officially. But can counting them would bring the number up to 25? That 25 number also doesn't count. At least three other names that I've tried to investigate independently but haven't been able to definitively attribute one way or the other. When I started working on this podcast, I wanted to try to nail down a more accurate number, something more definitive to be able to say how many people Shamir may have actually killed. Here's what that would look like. You'd need to start with deaths, let's just say, in Dallas county, even though we know he was operating in at least one other county, and just for the years of 2016, to 2018, even though there's no reason to think he didn't start earlier. There are likely hundreds or even thousands of unaccompanied deaths to pour through, so you'd need to get theft reports, too. But this causes other problems. The death and the theft may not be reported at the same time or with the same name. Take Norma French's death, for example. She was the victim whose ring was pulled off her finger and whose missing jewelry launched the secretive police investigation years before Shamir's arrest. It took a week for her daughters, Ellen and Laurie, to call police about the missing jewelry. And even then, the report was filed under Lori's name, not Norma's. If we were comparing that way, we wouldn't have identified her then. Think about the people who never noticed something was missing or didn't file a police report. Maybe they thought, oh, things go missing in a place like that, or maybe it got lost in the move or any number of other things. If you never reported the theft, there would be no trace even then. Let's say we do identify a death and a theft that looks suspicious. How do we know for sure that Shamir Mir was involved? The best we could do is use his cell phone data to try to track his movements or his online sales records to see if there was a match. Plano detectives Paul Martinez and John Hoffman said that's the process that police used to identify the cases we do know about. Is there more deaths he's responsible for? Absolutely. I believe that. I don't think it's. That we're missing it. I think we don't have any evidence to support any more death investigations that he's responsible for. And I say that law enforcement in general, I don't think. I think we did a very good job as the four agencies doing the best we could with what we had. And I don't. Again, in my opinion, the wording, I. I don't think we missed anything. I just don't think we had any more evidence to support that he did anymore. But is he responsible for more, do I believe. Absolutely. I believe he is, yeah.

[B]

There were so many things that got in the way. You know, going to one place that we knew, an assisted living place that we knew he was at and had spent time there, speaking with the administrator there. He. He tells me, you know, it's been over five years since we've had a death at this facility, which is incredible to me that such a place could. It may sound morbid, but you would expect more people to pass. And as I'm digging in that he gives part of the credit to that based on the contracts that they sign when they come in, where part of their advance directives is the full resuscitation effort. So if they find them dead, they're still transported. So when you look to see where somebody may have passed, you're not going to see that they passed there. Stuff like that got in the way.

[A]

In case you didn't catch that, Hoffman is saying that there was at least one senior living community that forced residents to sign leasing contracts that included advanced direct for full resuscitation, meaning that if paramedics found someone cold and unresponsive, they would still need to be transported to a doctor to declare them dead. The death then would not be reported on the property. But at the hospital, when I asked where that community was, a Plano PD media relations officer who sat in on the interviews told Hoffman that he wasn't allowed to answer. But even if we do discover more victims, there's another question on my mind. I asked Josh Alleman about it the last time he spoke. So one of the things that is unique about this is the fact that these women died. Their families had to grieve. Then as much as two years later, they get a phone call. Right. If you were in those shoes and let's say it's been. I mean, now many years, would you want to get that call? Would you want to know? That's a tough question. Yeah, that's a tough question. I've thought about that, too, because I think I know where you're going with this, is that we don't know how many he killed. And.

[B]

It'S.

[A]

So, yeah, I think how. How much you value that truth. You know, I mean, truth is important. And, yeah, I would. I would want to know if something happened to someone that I love and I have that choice of finding out or not. Like, it's a false sense of peace, I guess, or false sense of. Sorry, I don't know. I'm not good with terms, but I just feel like I. The truth is extremely important. What do you think? I thought about it a lot, too. Yeah. I. I don't know. Like, I specifically think back to, like, my grandparents. If I was to find out now that something happened to them that I didn't know at the time, I don't know. I would want to know, I guess. But not knowing protects you. Yeah. I think the fact that he's dead changes the answer with it a little bit. Like, for me, at least, if he was alive, absolutely Absolutely. I would want justice. Right. But he's dead. And so knowing now only hurts, really. Like, you get the truth, but you, you, you have that pain and you can't, like, you can't seek justice anymore because he is dead. Yeah, yeah. There's no, there's not going to be an indictment. There's not going to be a trial. It's just, oh, by the way, here's some horrible, gut wrenching pain that you now get to deal with. Yeah, I don't think that's a gift. That's. Yeah. A while back, I had a name that I was pretty sure should be on the list of victims. It was an older woman whose family had allegedly hired Shamir Mir to care for her. She had died, apparently of natural causes a few months before Dan's aunt Kathy, the first victim we know of. There were some other signs that made it suspicious, too. So I called the family to ask if they knew anything about the case and the similarities with their mother's death several years earlier. It was a short conversation. They didn't want to look into it any deeper, and I don't blame them. Nice to meet you.

[B]

Nice to meet you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[A]

You bet.

[B]

Thank you for coming. Oh, thank you.

[A]

A few weeks after I first started reporting this story, way back in 2019, I drove to the home of Lauren Smith. She was among the very first relatives of Shamir Mir's victims I met. Her mother was Phyllis Payne, who died at Edgemere about a month after Kathy Sinclair.

[B]

Well, she was strong. She was very sharp, very sweet. She was always, you know, thinking about everybody. What could she do for someone else? She was active with friends, and she was never just sitting, not doing anything. You know, she was. Oh, and she was driving. Even at 91, she still drove. My brother and I talked and said, we're not even scared to drive with her. She's a good driver.

[A]

When Phyllis was found dead, Lauren was out of town. Her husband was dying of esophageal cancer, and this was to be the family's last big vacation with him. But when Lauren got the call, they rushed home to Dallas.

[B]

Yeah, we were shocked. And we could. Astounded. I don't know all the words to say. We were just couldn't believe it. I called her doctor. I said, what in the world do you think could happen? And she said, Lauren, she was 91. She probably had a heart arrhythmia. You know, we didn't do an autopsy because she was 91.

[A]

Over the next few weeks, Lauren Noticed that Phyllis's fine silverware was missing, and she filed a police report. It wasn't until later that her family realized even more jewelry was gone. Here she is talking with a few of the other daughters you've heard from already. Shannon Dion, Ellen House, and Mary Jo Jennings.

[B]

And then her best jewelry she kept hidden away in a coffee can. And it was probably a month later, we went, where's the coffee can? You know, and so that's. Did you find it? No. That was where her best jewelry was. Yeah. Oh, wow.

[A]

I wasn't a coffee can in the fridge.

[B]

The fridge. So I can't even say it. He had to have asked her where it was. You know, don't think about that. Sorry. No, it's okay. I have this. I had the same things. Don't think about it. It's okay. Sorry. They exhumed my mom's body. She had a completely different experience that none of us can relate to. And that is hard for me to think. I can't reach out to you on that. Well, that you've reached out plenty. So they said, you know, she's one of two or three that had not been cremated.

[A]

Jeffrey Barnard, the medical examiner, said his office ordered two exhumations, including Phyllis Payne.

[B]

They didn't ask my permission, which we would have said, of course, yes. But they said, we are planning to exhume her body, so. So that we can make the determination. And I did go and had someone go with me just to be there and to honor her. And then when we re entombed her body, we did have a little service, and I had some friends and family there. So it was like, you say that was a whole nother trauma. It was a whole nother trauma. I just. I literally. You know what I do? I get. Sometimes I just get in the car and let. So I can let out a scream and not scare the dog and just yell just to get it out. It's like, how could you have done this to her? You know, and to all these people for a little bit of jewelry or, you know, just. Just sick.

[A]

In the years since her mother died, there have been many painful moments like that. But there have been moments of joy, too.

[B]

What? Oh, my God. You're kidding me.

[A]

In April 2020, about a month after the first COVID lockdowns began, about four years after her first husband died of cancer, Lauren was remarried in a small, private ceremony at her home. Like a lot of weddings that spring, it was livestreamed to family and friends who couldn't gather to celebrate with the happy couple. After the ceremony, Lauren's friends and neighbors had arranged an extra Covid era surprise, a parade of family and friends leaning out of their cars with balloons and waves and well wishes. The trauma of her mother's death and everything that's happened since still bubbles up in unexpected ways and unexpected places. Lauren said that a few months ago, she was in Colorado at a vacation condo when someone came to the door with maintenance and asked to check the pipes. It was an immediate trigger, and she refused to let them inside. Later, she found out that there was an actual leak on the property and the maintenance check was legitimate.

[B]

And it just. It brought a panic back to me. Yeah, it just took my. Well, I was shaking afterwards. It terrified me, and it surprised me that I was so terrified from it.

[A]

It's all so bittersweet. There are new grandbabies, but with them comes a reminder that. That they won't get the chance to meet their great grandmothers. There are graduations to celebrate, new jobs, exciting opportunities, wins, losses, all bundled together. Because that's part of grief, too. Learning to carry the pain alongside the rest of it all. Many of the families said it didn't help that grief. When prosecutors decided to drop the additional 23 cases against Shamir Miracles after those two guilty verdicts. It felt, they said, like their mothers were being forgotten all over again. Here's Cheryl Pangburn.

[B]

The fact that they can do that with someone that's a known victim, with their life and with their families, and that you can just make the decision that we don't need any more indictments, we've got enough and just discard these other lives and these other families and just leave them hanging. Just the whole justice system, the age of the victims, is the bottom line. Had it been any other segment of society, I think it would have been handled so much differently. But because of the ageism that was involved, it ended up being a battle on different levels for just about all of us.

[A]

Karen Harris said she always hoped that her mother's case would go to trial, but it's never happened, and now it never will.

[B]

It never occurred to me that my mom would never see a day in court like, it never occurred to me that she would not have her case tried in a court of law. And that's still just irks me to no end. It makes me feel horrible. It makes me feel horrible. It just made my blood boil. But that and the way they dismissed the cases, and it's like they dismissed our moms.

[A]

Dallas County District Attorney John Cruzeau didn't respond to our questions about the decision to dismiss those cases. But he told Dr. Phil earlier this year that if it was his mother's case that was dismissed, he'd feel the same way. He said he'd never used the word dismissed with the families, although his lead prosecutor, Glenn Fitzmartin, did in the zoom call with them. You heard in an earlier episode. I think I explained to everybody when I first discussed with you all that these cases will eventually, most of them will be, will be dismissed no matter what happens. Cruzeau said on Dr. Phil's show that he took responsibility for the reaction from the victims. That's my bad, he told the talk show host. Detective Paul Martinez, who investigated Shamirmere's crimes for the Plano Police Department, said that now that Shamir Mir is dead, he's tried to take some steps to help the families with their grief. Recently, he invited all the Plano families to police headquarters where he threw open the investigative books and showed them everything he knew about their mother's deaths. This wasn't possible before while the cases were on appeal. He's also returned some of the physical evidence to the families a phone, a stuffed animal. Abdel Saleh, the 100% guy who testified in Arabic during the trials, had melted the gold from Mary Bartel's ring soon after he bought it from Shamir Mir, but he kept the center diamond. Martinez said he turned that stone over to police right away and Martinez gave it back to the Bartels not long ago, he said Sulla has offered to reset the diamond in a new piece for the family. In the years since Shamir Mir was killed, some of the families have started to move on in other ways they didn't think was possible. The grief lingers like it always will. But some have said that because he's no longer out there, they're able to process their loved ones deaths in a different way.

[B]

Having him no longer breathing on the face of the earth, I can't say that it has given me peace. But I don't think about him.

[A]

This is Shannon Deon again.

[B]

I know that that evil is gone and there's just a different acceptance of what has occurred and being able to close the door on him being a part of that story.

[A]

Yeah, you. You seem lighter.

[B]

I definitely feel lighter. It's as I keep saying, it's just knowing that he is no longer breathing on the face of this earth.

[A]

But not everyone feels the same way. Like Cheryl Pangburn, who always pushed for Shamirmer to receive the death penalty.

[B]

It's still Just an ongoing process. It's still as fresh as ever. I think I was one of the few that had a very different reaction to him being killed than most. It angered me because I don't think it was justice. I think justice would have been him getting what he deserved through trial and through the punishment that comes from that, which to me should have been the death penalty. So I think that'll forever be a frustration for me. I think if I felt like we were being heard more or making more progress with independent living, feeling the need to change something about the system, I would feel better. But I still felt like we haven't done enough.

[A]

Do you feel like you haven't done enough or that they haven't reacted enough?

[B]

I feel like they haven't reacted enough. I feel like. I feel like the media has not done a good enough job highlighting this story and calling attention to the fact that seniors deserve so much more. I mean, you've got an industry that is housing some of our most vulnerable people, and yet they're not doing anything. They have done nothing in a lot of cases to upgrade the security to protect those people. I mean, we're trying every avenue that we can to just shout it from the rooftops and to call attention to this. And I think because they don't have to, because nobody's requiring or expecting any more of them, they're not going to do any more than is expected of them because it's going to cost them money, and it's all about making money. That's kind of a twofold frustration, one that we're not being heard or doing the right things to be heard, and that when we do get someone's attention, that they don't feel the need to do anything about it.

[A]

That's one frustration I've heard over and over while reporting this case. For so long, Cheryl and Shannon and Dan and Mary Jo and Ellen and Karen and the McPhee brothers and Lauren and Jenny and so many others had tried to prove that something terrible had happened to their mothers. They've tried over and over to do something, however small, to ensure that others won't face the same vulnerabilities. For so long, they've been ignored and dismissed. The whole time they were telling the truth. We all just refused to listen. Catherine Sinclair, Phyllis Payne and Phoebe Perry were killed at Edgemere in Dallas between April and June 2016. Joyce Abramowicz, Juanita Purdy, Leah Corkin, Margaret White, Solomon Spring, Norma French, Glenna Day and Doris Gleason were killed at the Tradition Prestonwood in Dallas between July and October 2016. Helen Lee and Marilyn Bixler were killed at Parkview Frisco in September 2017 and Ella Lawson survived an attack there the next month. Minnie Campbell, Diane Delahunty, Mamie Del Maia and Ajane Doe were killed at Preston Place in Plano between October and December 2017. Doris Wasserman was killed at the Tradition Prestonwood in December 2017. Carolyn McPhee was killed in her Plano home in December 2017. Rosemary Curtis was killed in her Dallas home in January 2018. Mary Sue Brooks was killed in her Richardson home in January 2018. Martha Williams, Miriam Nelson and Ann Conklin were killed at Preston Place and Mary Bartel survived an attack there in March 2018. Luti Kim Harris was killed in her Dallas home in March 2018. Many, many other victims could remain unknown, unidentified but not forgotten the Unforgotten is a Free range production. Season 2 Unnatural Causes was created, written and hosted by me, Charlie Scudder. Our producer is Wes Ferguson. Associate Producer is Monica Watkins. Audio editing, engineering, mixing and mastering by Austin Sisler at East side Studios in Austin, Texas. Theme song and sound design by AJ LeGrand. Wes Ferguson is the Executive Producer at Free Range. Special thanks to the Dallas Morning News and the Division of Journalism at Southern Methodist University's Meadows School of the Arts.