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- [00:00]
A
Adam. Hey, everyone, it's Adam Rittenberg and Kyle Bonagara, hosts of the Unforgotten Season three, Finding Dolores Wolf. And we're back here to discuss our latest episode, which dropped on Monday, episode four, Uncle Slick. We just wanted to thank everybody for your continued support of the podcast and the series and keep subscribing, keep sharing. If you want to interact with us, we're obviously open to doing that on social media and, and elsewhere. But this is an episode, Kyle, that I know both of us had really been looking forward to. Truly one of the inspirations for us to pursue a narrative podcast project coming off of our story about Dolores Case for espn in that, hey, we talked to a lot of people for this project, but by far the most captivating, the most layered, most interesting was Matthew Rocha Sr. Or Slick as he's known in the podcast. And, you know, we received a lot of feedback about Slick, even from our digital piece that we did back in 2021. And we wanted, having talked to Slick for a While back in 2020, late 2020, we really felt that if we did this project, his life was worth a full episode. Even though this is still about Dolores Case, his sister, it's still, you know, he's not the subs, the person who went missing, nor is he the suspect. So it's a little bit unusual to have, you know, a 50 minute episode about somebody who isn't one of those people. But Slick is not your normal person. And as we found out, you know, spending time with him, learning about him from his sons and his, his nephews and others, but, but really being in his presence, it was again, something like neither of us have ever experienced in our careers.
- [01:52]
B
Yeah, I mean, both of us have been journalists for over 20 years now, and I've thought a lot about this. I've never conducted an interview that is as memorable as the one as we had with Slick. I mean, sitting in his apartment, just chatting with him for a few hours, it's something that I'll never forget. I mean, just the way he told stories, the actual stories, I mean, you mentioned it was worth a whole episode. I mean, you could probably make the case that this is. There's a screenplay out there ready to be written about this guy's life. And I know it was difficult for us to condense everything about him into just one episode.
- [02:29]
A
Right.
- [02:30]
B
There's so much that this guy did in his life that was incredible and deserves to be shared widely. And I'm glad we got to do that with episode four. We still had to keep it, make it tie back to the plot, which I think we did. I mean, this is a person who was so important to all the characters in this story. And his background made him even more interesting in terms of how he dealt with what happened to his sister. He could have gone a number of ways. He talked about that with us. Right. If he wanted to seek revenge for what happened to his sister against Carl Wolf, he was more than capable of doing that. But the softer side is, I think, the side that won out, the side that made him take a step back, come to the decision that, hey, look, I need to be there for Paul and Tom. I need to help raise them, see them off into adulthood. And I think everyone now can appreciate the choice he made even more so knowing everything that he went through in Vietnam.
- [03:26]
A
Right. And, yeah, I think for us, we. We. We sort of detailed this a little bit in the episode, how we came out of that apartment talking to Slick. But let's spend a little bit of time on the actual day, you know, again, to take everyone back. This is December of 2020. You know, I had taken my first flight during COVID with my oldest son out to visit my parents in the Bay Area. And, you know, we knew obviously we were working on this project together, but really every other interview had been done over zoom, because that's how you did interviews at that time. And we just felt it was so important because of who Slick was and his age and some of the limitations that we had to get in a car with wearing masks and drive up to Woodland and do this interview. And, I mean, I'm so thankful that we did, because it was really just an incredible experience to go there and, you know, find that apartment on the edge of town. And Matt Rocha Jr. His son, had better briefed us on what to expect, and he nailed it. But when you think just about everything that went into setting that up and then meeting Slick and getting him, you know, mic'd up with the headphones, we knew about his hearing issues. And then the way when he started to speak, I just remember looking at you and being like, wow, this is. This is unique. This is going to be really special. And to hear these different stories from somebody who truly had a place in American history, even though many people, probably even in Woodland who knew him well, didn't fully know the roles that he played early in his life in the military. They knew him as a coach. They knew him as a father and an uncle and a community member, but they didn't really probably know Everything that he went through as a. As a really young man. Yeah.
- [05:19]
B
And I think when you talk to members of his family, it's really interesting to hear them recount their own personal experiences, just like being around him their whole lives. Right. He's, you know, we included the quote from Paul about he's the most respected man that he'd ever meet or would ever encounter in his life. But I think that was a sentiment that was shared by a lot of people. It wasn't. It wasn't just Paul who kind of. He kind of stepped in when he was 12 and served this very important role. Anyone that was really in his orbit had a very similar feel about who this guy was and what he meant to the family, to the community and beyond. Right. And I think they had those feelings even before they understood the background. No. Like without knowing what he went through in Vietnam. Remember he. After he got back from Vietnam and experienced all that he experienced there, he buried that for over 25 years. Didn't tell anyone. As far as his, his sons are. Are aware. Right. Maybe there's he conn. Fellow soldiers, that's possible. But as far as the people around him, they had no idea. He buried it and suppressed it and was still able to live this very meaningful life. He became this very gentle person. Now, you know, if he needed to discipline his kids, yeah, he would still, he would still do that. But this was a guy who was always approaching things from a very unique perspective because, you know, Matt Jr. Said it best is like, look, he had already gone through hell. None of this other stuff matter. Like the day to day trials and tribulation of life were not a big deal. Like the perspective really allowed him to operate in a very unique way, I think. And there was a time and a place for tapping into that other side of him. But even when Dolores went missing, he found, I guess, the courage to really sit back and do what was best for Tom and Paul.
- [07:10]
A
Right. Yeah. I think you always have this impression of somebody who's been through what he went through and did. Some of the things that he did that they don't have the capability of doing. Some of the things that he was involved in when he got back to Woodland in terms of being a functional member of the community, coaching thousands of kids or hundreds of kids with the nicknames. We went through that in the episode, having compassion. I think me naively and I don't have a lot of people in my family that were in the military, but certainly, you know, kind of from afar you think of somebody who went through what he went through. You think, oh, they are not going to be emotionally capable of doing the normal things that you have to do when you come back. And I think that that's what's something that will always stick with me about Slick is who he chose to be when he returned. And sure, that might have required suppressing all of those things that he witnessed and did for many years, but look at that second phase. Look at that chapter after he got back to Woodland and not just the one that. Yeah, we're certainly focusing on that quite a bit. His early years and what he did in Little Rock and what he did in Vietnam. But what he did after he came back is what will really stick with me.
- [08:28]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And this is a guy who, you know, for his family, that's the version they experienced. Right. And I think it was really interesting to kind of get their perspective after they learned about what he went through. And it just kind of added to the legend. Right. This was already a guy who was firmly established in everyone's hearts and minds. And then knowing what he went through, you know, kind of elevated him to that, to that another level. And that just allowed everyone to appreciate him that much more for sure.
- [08:55]
A
And we, we certainly hope you appreciated episode four, Uncle Slick, and certainly welcome any, any feedback that you have on, on after hearing from him during that episode. As we look ahead, Kyle, episode five, Catch and Release, we turn back to the case and really focus on the year 1985 when the wait for something to happen from an official standpoint finally ends for Dolores family. And it's really a year of hope and anguish and legal proceedings. But if you think about the start of that year to the end of that year, it's a very significant one in this search for, for Dolores Wolf. Just really quickly, what. What's something that our listeners can sort of look forward to in episode five, Catch and Release.
- [09:48]
B
Yeah, so I think for true crime listeners, this is the most probably procedural true crime episode that we have in the series. It really, you know, details court proceedings and hearings and evidence and trials and, you know, witnesses on the stand, those sort of things which, which, you know, for me were really interesting to, to listen to people tell us about and kind of do the research, going to the courthouse, all of those things. And then we do introd, you know, another kind of interesting character, maybe not in American history, but certainly in Northern California history. There's this lawyer named Tony Sarah who makes an appearance. He's a really famous defense attorney in Northern California. Had a. Had a movie made about a case that he tried back in the 80s, James Wood, James woods played a character based on Tony Sarah. Robert Downey Jr. Was in the movie. So I'm excited for people to kind of get exposed to him. He arrives in an unusual way and then we do hear about some family drama that, you know, it was kind of divided the family for a little bit. And so I think people it's, it's interesting context to just understand how people processed the court proceedings and the legal hearings and all of that because it was a tough time for the family as they kind of dealt with everything that happened.
- [10:58]
A
No doubt. So episode five, Catch and Release will be out early next week and we will be here as always to wrap it up and look ahead to episode six. Thanks again for all of your support. Please continue to follow us on social media and have a great week. It's Adam Rittenberg and Kyle Bonagara. So long.