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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone, it's Adam Rittenberg and Kyle Bonagora, hosts of the Unforgotten Season three, Finding Dolores Wolf. And we're here to recap episode five, Catch and Release, which dropped on Monday. You know, Kyle, in this episode, we very much return to the case and focus on the year 1985, which was a really significant year, six years after the disappearance, or I guess five and a half years after the disappearance of Dolores Wolf from her home in Woodland, California. And, you know, the year begins with a major development in the case, which is the arrest of Carl Wolf following pressure from Dolores family, the Rochas. And the question then becomes, is he going to remain behind bars? And ultimately, is he going to be convicted? Because as we've sort of established in the podcast, there wasn't much doubt among the district attorney, obviously her family, the police, Ron Heileman, that Carl was responsible, but could they get a conviction? And this episode goes through all the different legal maneuverings and different hearings throughout the year 1985, ending with the decision at the end of that year that regardless of whether Karl Wolf was guilty or innocent, he was going to walk free because his right to a speedy trial had been denied. And that's really the conflict we get into in this episode. And we spoke to Rick Gilbert, the original district attorney, about this and his conflict over whether to arrest Carl earlier and would they have enough to convict him. And they only had one shot, and then ultimately that decision to wait so long ends up costing them. What were your biggest takeaways? Just from this episode and talking with Rick and some of the others who were involved in what was a pretty dramatic year in the courtroom. Yeah.
- [01:52]
B
So I think it was really informative that we discussed it with Rick because he was the DA when Dolores went missing and was the man who ultimately made the decision not to file charges initially or in the first couple years, with the benefit of hindsight, I think he told us that he would have filed charges. Right. Because it was dismissed only because of the delay and the idea that Carl Wolf's right to a speedy trial was violated. So it does make you wonder, okay, if this case had been brought forth earlier with a DA that was very firm in seeking a conviction, how would it have played out differently? Obviously, there wouldn't have been a body, and you still have those challenges that you would have had to overcome, but you'll never know. And I think there's some regret there for Gilbert. There's certainly a lot of anger still towards him from the family because he didn't move forward. But I also think about just the job that Van Court did in those preliminary hearings, the job he did trying to argue the case on behalf of the state, on behalf of Doris family. And it never really felt like there was the type of dedication you needed to winning a case like this. It was going to be a tough case. We all outlined all of that and the fact that he admitted as much that he was complimenting the defense attorney, that he didn't want to strain his credibility. He was going talking about in the press that it was going to be a tough case to win. Like all of those things show a man that was not ready for a fight. And if you don't have a DA who's ready for a fight, it's a hard time. You're going to have a hard time getting a win. And so I know that that's something that's sits with the family is very disappointing and something that's almost hard to believe that you didn't have the support for someone whose job it was to prosecute the case.
- [03:36]
A
Yeah. If you think about all the things that happened in the courtroom that year that were I guess the most memorable things, whether it was the presence of Tony Sara, who we outlined in the podcast and just what a character he was, whether it was these bogus sightings of Dolores that were entered as if they were fact and turned into headlines in the Sacramento Bee. I mean this Manuel Lemos guy, I mean where did he come from with his ideas? You know the deputy that even said that he saw Dolores Wolf as the police deputy and it felt like the other side, the prosecution side, the Dolores family side, really lost the narrative. Even Carly Wolf being accused of murdering his own mother by Sally Saladay, who was the defense attorney who replaced Tony Serra. You kind of just like I think you put it well, it was a one sided fight and it didn't seem like Dolores side and I guess in turn the Van Court Gilbert side was throwing enough punches back towards, towards Karl Wolf and towards his defense team that they sort of dictated how this ultimately went and that's why they ultimately came out winners. Right.
- [04:50]
B
And we gotta remember too that they didn't want to prosecute the case in the first place. The only reason that the Yolo County DA took it on was because the state AG's office was going to do it if they didn't. So they almost got backed into was a reluctant prosecution. And, and with that being the dynamic, you kind of see why they weren't so gung ho about throwing all the Time and resources they had at getting a conviction. So it's. The whole thing is easy to criticize now. It was easy to criticize then. There's just really. No, not a lot of logic behind the way YOLO county approached it. But for me, Adam, the other thing that I think stands out about this episode was just kind of the reservations Anna had after all that time. Right. You know, we documented very clearly early on in the show that she was the first person to go to police to point the finger at her father. Talked about some of the, you know, her. Her past with him in terms of some molestation allegations. It was a very toxic relationship. But at some point, she switched sides, and she became the only one among her family who was willing to advocate for her father. She took the stand for him in a preliminary hearing to act as a character witness. She contacted her uncle to get money to get him out of jail. You know, that part of this story, I think, really complicated everything for the family along the way, because now you have these strained family dynamics that were tough to navigate. And look, I'm sure here we are, 45 years later, there's probably still residual impact of everything that they went through as a result of Anna advocating for her father. And I think, for the most part, they're past that and they're fine now. But it certainly was a difficult time for everyone to navigate, no doubt.
- [06:42]
A
And, you know, Anna's someone we'll hear from more as the series goes along. But I think her conflict was really captured in this episode. You know, just to give the listeners an idea, too, you know, we didn't speak with Rick Gilbert for our original story for ESPN.com, he was someone we spoke to very late in the reporting process, and we didn't really know what to expect. We didn't know if he would talk to us. We didn't know how open he would be. And he turned out to be incredibly open about everything. He remembered as a young district attorney at the time, understood the family's feelings towards him and. And how those feelings had lingered. Even defended Charles Van Court and what he. What he knew of that man at the time, even though he was someone who. Who drew a lot of criticism. So I think that was very helpful for us as we were reporting the story and hopefully helpful for you as you're listening and consuming the story. Just quickly, Kyle, as we look ahead to our next episode. Moving on, episode six, which will come out next week, this really focuses on Carl Wolf. It's almost a bio episode of him and where he came from and what his life was like, you know, even before he met Dolores, but certainly what happened after the fact, after he's acquitted or essentially gets to walk out of the courtroom as a free man. Really quick, what's something that people can look forward to as we dive into the life of Carl Wolf in episode six?
- [08:10]
B
Yeah, I mean, here's a guy whose life just continues to spiral out of control. I think people will get a real understanding of the type of person he was beyond the allegations that have already been presented. Right. There was a time where he had defenders back in Minnesota, his family, his immediate family that he grew up with. And by the end of episode six, they have completely changed their tune as well. He alienates his parents, he alienates his brother, completely wrecks any meaningful relationships that he has and provides more context into what type of person that everyone had been dealing with.
- [08:45]
A
No doubt. But there's an evolution here in Karl Wolf, and we will try to explore that as best as we can in episode six, Moving on, which will come out next week. Thanks again for all your continued support. Please reach out to us on social media and elsewhere if you have any questions about the podcast, and we will see you next week. For Kyle, I'm Adam. We'll see you then.