B (3:18)

Right. And I think a lot of us, and even after the podcast, will certainly let the. Let the readers decide. Was Carl Wolf always like this? Because even as a younger person, Richard describes him as popular, athletic. He has this hunting incident where he loses sight in his eye, which prevented him from continuing his football career. And then you kind of wonder when he become what he became, because you're right, by the end of his life, absolutely a despicable person. But was there a turning point? Clearly, mental health was involved, and that's something we explored in this podcast through the eyes of Dick. But also Pat, who had a medical background, definitely thought Carl was mentally ill. Anxiety, all sorts of things going on. And one theme that I think does trace back from his childhood to, really 1979 and beyond was his relationship to money and the fear. Having grown up poor, having grown up in the depression. You know, Dick says it in the podcast, we didn't have $2 to our name. You wonder how that impacted him in terms of not wanting to get divorced. His business dealings. Just had a very strained relationship, I thought, with. With the financial piece of his life, which really put him in a bad spot.

C (4:37)

Yeah, that was something that was a lot of people told us about, too, is that he was just obsessed with money, you know, at every step of the way. Right. And so for him to be financially ruined, you know, who knows the sort of, like, mental impact that had on him later. And certainly those financial issues stayed with him all the way to the end. We do document how he made his way back to California. He ends up in an apartment, and he's trying to, you know, stay connected to Anna a little bit. You know, eventually that goes south as well. But there's that scene that, you know, an important scene, where both Anna and Tom tell us that they wanted to go down there to try to pry out a confession down there, meaning back to Southern California to try to pry a confession out of him. But by the time they got to him, he was in such A, you know, declined mental state that, you know, they couldn't even make their last ditch plea to get some news on his deathbed. They both have a really vivid recall of what it was like being there and kind of dealing with him at the end. And, you know, that stands out for me. And then of course, you know, Paul getting the call that his, his dad's in a bad shape. What do you want me to do? Well, you know, you know, don't do anything. Which I'm sure was a strange and difficult phone call for him to receive.

B (5:51)

Yeah. And again we get into that even later in the podcast. I think Paul's relationship and thoughts about his dad are maybe different, a little blurrier than even Tom's or Carly's. Anna's relationship, as we explore in that episode, is certainly layered and complicated, but she gets to a point, I mean, Tony Roach is driving her back to Woodland and says, hey, before we go, we got to agree your dad killed your mom or we're not moving essentially. And Anna is. You're right, I know. So she's come around, Richard has come around. Everybody eventually comes around to the belief that Carl is guilty and yet no confession. He, he dies still a free man, never having truly paid, at least from a legal and criminal standpoint for what all these people thought he did. You know, so obviously he, he dies at the end of Act 2. And then we then explore what comes next and introduce, you know, this community of, of Internet sleuths, including those from the DOE network, who look into these types of cold cases, either missing persons cases or unidentified remains cases. We introduced namus, this national database for, for all these situations and people that haven't been matched up and try to figure out, you know, who, how this can, how some of these resolutions can happen. This was one of the more fascinating parts of this story and we'll continue to look at it. Kyle, but when, when, when you, we were learning about the DO network and, and, and just this whole world out there, what came to mind for you most?

C (7:27)

It kind of made me appreciate technology, I think.

B (7:30)

Right.

C (7:30)

Because like this was, you know, for the reasons we documented, it was a tough, it was a tough case to solve for police. Just, you know, communication and in DNA and like you couldn't really get all the evidence you needed at the crime scene. Well, all the, a lot of those barriers to getting the conviction were, were solved over the years or at least they were helped, you know, helped solve and being able to like match, you know, DNA with deceased bodies, like stuff that the NAMUS relies on, and this is foreshadowing a bit with, with how this case plays out. But it was really interesting to me to see how many people are dedicated to helping solve cold cases who have no real connection to them, that they're just either fascinated with the process or came into it in another way. And so I'm excited for the listeners to. To hear episode seven and eight when we really, you know, the introduction of NAMUS and the DOE network really becomes clear why we. We laid the groundwork in episode six. And, you know, next episode, episode seven, 41 years, is where we, we really get to Kenny Hart, the detective who we first heard from at the very start of the podcast, and kind of outline his process for getting involved in the case. So I'm excited for that one to get. Get out of. This was more of a bridge episode to kind of tie a bow on Carl's life and kind of set the foundation for what's next. And it'll really, it'll really pick up here in episode seven.

B (8:55)

Yeah. Not to give away too much, Kyle, but there is a major development in episode seven that all the listeners will want to tune in for. As Kyle mentioned, episode seven, 41 years, will be out early next week. We really look forward to breaking it down with you here, but continue to listen, subscribe, share, and if you have any questions for us, please reach out. So for Kyle, I'm Adam and have a great week, everyone.